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Old 11-25-2015, 07:30 PM   #1
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Default I'm a student in the FTT - AMA

Hey brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm currently attending a FTT and am willing to answer any questions regarding the local churches or FTT in general. I hope that this could be a time of fellowship.
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Old 11-25-2015, 10:48 PM   #2
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sigh!
Are you allowed to talk to outsiders during FTT?
What is AMA?
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Old 11-26-2015, 07:16 AM   #3
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Hey brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm currently attending a FTT and am willing to answer any questions regarding the local churches or FTT in general. I hope that this could be a time of fellowship.
Welcome!

Happy Thanksgiving!
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Old 11-26-2015, 08:39 AM   #4
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Welcome to Local Church Discussion! When you get a chance please send and email requesting membership, along with your desired UserName, to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com, and then we will forward a temporary password to you. As a registered member of LCD your posts will appear immediately without having to go through the moderation que (which can take anywhere from an hour to a full day) Also you will then have access to the Private Message area in which you can communicate in privacy with other members.
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Old 11-26-2015, 09:13 PM   #5
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sigh!
Are you allowed to talk to outsiders during FTT?
What is AMA?
Ama means to ask me anything.

I don't know what you mean by outsiders. But if you mean those brothers and sisters that are no longer meeting with the saints in the local church, i don't see why not because we are all believers, and we all love the same God.
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Old 11-26-2015, 09:15 PM   #6
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Welcome!

Happy Thanksgiving!
Thanks brother

Happy thanksgiving to you too! (I'm not from America, but it doesnt mean I don't love me some turkey!! Haha)
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Old 11-28-2015, 04:34 AM   #7
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I would like to know what is the daily schedule in a FTT.
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:04 AM   #8
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I'd love to know if you were raised in the lc or gained off thecampuses.

After peeking around, how complete do you feel your knowledge of lc history is?

Welcome!
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Old 11-29-2015, 06:54 PM   #9
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Welcome to the forum SevenSpirits!

I hope that you would find the opportunity for fellowship here that you are looking for.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:56 AM   #10
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Default A few questions

I have a few questions.

- Do they still tell you, "don't waste your time" with the poor, the orphans, the widows, with those who have no means to repay you in the present age? See Luke 14:13,14; cf Prov 19:17. Paul wrote (Gal 2:10) that he was "eager to remember the poor" but I didn't see much eagerness when I was in the FTTA. Instead they were eager for "good building material", such as Caucasian college students. How 'normal' is this disdain for the weak and the sick among us? It doesn't seem like a normal Christian church life, to me.

- Your moniker is SevenSpirits: do you really believe in seven spirits, or in just one spirit, sevenfold intensified to overcome the degradation of the church? If this "seven is really one" idea is true, then why didn't WL use the same methodology throughout the Revelation? Why didn't he say that Revelation 21:12 showed one gate, which had become twelvefold intensified, or that Revelation 8:2 showed merely one angel standing before God, who was sevenfold intensified, or that the seven churches in Rev 2 and 3 were in fact one church, sevenfold? Why use one methodology (seven = one) in one place, and abandon that interpretive method everywhere else? Why the inconsistency of method?

And if Moses built a lampstand holding up seven lamps in Exodus, then was the church already degraded in Exodus when he went on the holy mountain and received the vision? So, why did Moses need to create seven lights in Exodus? In the NT we see only one spirit (e.g. Ephesians 4:4), and then in Revelation 1 (once again?) John beheld seven flames burning before the throne?

I suspect there were seven flames all along, and the "degraded church" idea was something that WL needed to distance himself from every other teacher, all of whom were of course useless. "They're all degraded!!" Only WL had the oracle, so we were taught. Yes, were problems in the Asian churches in Revs 2 & 3, but there also were problems in Jerusalem, Antioch, etc. So why seven flames in Revelation? And why WL's need to overturn the plain language right in front of him, and make seven equal one? And if his logic were right, why didn't he consistently use it?

- Why were women prominent in the early "recovery" movement, but now they can't even give a message in church on Sunday morning? Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, etc etc; there were dozens functioning alongside WN. Ironically, one hundred years ago, women couldn't vote or hold public office, but could function in WN's "Little Flock" movement. Today women can run for President but can't speak on Sunday morning? What got recovered, here? Where's Priscilla and Aquila in the Lord's recovery movement? Banished.
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Old 12-02-2015, 04:23 PM   #11
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I thought about the seven spirits. Please write more on this topic.
I suspect the FTT kid is banned from this site and not allowed to talk to 'insiders' anything 'negative'. He/she reckoned he/she knew it all (having been taught WL all-incisive high peak blah blah) and had confidently declared AMA (ask me anything).
Now this kid is learning. Pray for him/her that The Lord reveals Himself and His own word, that this one in The Lord's hand is supported by The Lord Himself.
Sad spies and sad leaders in the LSM controlled system. Is it worth it? Butcher the young that you shepherded. Lord Jesus Christ is coming soon.
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Old 12-02-2015, 08:56 PM   #12
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Default More questions

Why is the church in Moses Lake a "rebel church", while WN could form an independent church? And Martin Luther, for that matter? Why wasn't WN's church a "rebel church" also? Why wasn't Luther's church a "rebel church"?

If the Lamb went and took the scroll from Him who sat on the throne in Revelation 5:7, how is the Lamb the Father? How can the Lamb take the scroll from Himself? For that matter, how can the Lamb sit at His own right hand? (Psa 110:1, Matt 22:44)

If LSM puts out a magazine called "Affirmation and Critique", why can't LC members also critique WL's writings, as well as affirm them? Why are they told not to be "negative", but encouraged to be negative against everyone and everything else (I.e. "Christianity" and "the world")?

Why is Affirmation and Critique not a name, also? Or Defense and Confirmation Project? Or Bibles for America? Those are names? Or even "the Thursday night prayer meeting at Sister Smith's house" - that is a name, is it not?

If you think I'm playing games with words, I'm not; in fact it's LC members who are playing with words. They do what everybody else does, which is give things names. LC members are called "saints", while everyone else is not? Unaffiliated Christian groups are called "free groups" and are condemned, while affiliated Christian groups are called "denominations" and are condemned also? It's like WL created a fantasy world where nobody is right, and nobody can possibly be right. How can anyone have fellowship in such an atmosphere, heavy with condemnation and judgment? A place where words mean whatever you want them to mean, only to mean something else when the need changes?

As you can see, I'm a prickly sort. Please forgive me. Obviously I didn't make it very far in the LC system. I just couldn't get out of my mind, sufficiently.

For that matter, why did WL think, and reason, while everyone else was deemed hopelessly deficient and simply recited verbatim what the Seer of the Age (WL, naturally) was thinking? Doesn't this seem like we're being respecters of persons, here? One special person gets a special rule, while the great unwashed masses get another rule?
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Old 12-03-2015, 06:53 AM   #13
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I thought about the seven spirits. Please write more on this topic.
Unfortunately I'm unqualified, and will limit myself to two remarks. The first thing to keep in mind is that the Revelation of John was written 200+ years before the Nicene Creed, and John wasn't beholden to creedal formulas as you and I are. If he wanted to put seven spirits before the throne, he did. Not sure if he'd read Paul's epistle to the Ephesians. Probably, since he addressed the Ephesian church as full of knowledge, but short of love. Paul of course had been in Ephesus for 3 years (Acts 20:31).

But the word "one" in Biblical context doesn't necessitate a numerical understanding, but rather perhaps a functional perspective. Jesus said, "You shall be one, even as I am one with the Father", and this presented a common theme in the Bible, that of agency. A rich person has agents working for them, who are one with his or her wishes, desires, plans. They go forth, and work, and report back to the Boss. As such, they are one. There are many, but they are all one. "I come to do Thy will; behold in the scroll of the book it is written concerning Me" - obedience indicates oneness. Crucial to my understanding was the Centurion's explanation to Jesus, of servants going forth and functioning at his bidding, at which Jesus marveled. Likewise, we see many gospel parables of stewardship, obedience, and faithfulness. It all points to being one with God. (It doesn't mean "becoming God" - the Centurion, with Caesar above him, and servants under him, all remained such. But they were one, with commonality of purpose, intent, function, expression).

So there are seven spirits burning before the throne in Revelation 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6, yet one spirit in Ephesians 4:4, and not perforce a contradiction. There are many but they're one. For example, there are four living creatures, there are twenty-four elders, there are two witnesses, there are uncountable millions gathered around the throne praising and giving thanks and glory and honor. But they're all one.

My second point is this: Moses was told to build everything according to the pattern shown him on the holy mountain. So Moses built a lampstand with seven lamps. What, then, did Moses see - a lampstand? Or seven flames?

Interestingly, when they came down from the mountain, it said that "fire came out from before the throne" and consumed Aaron's sons for their disobedience (Lev 10:2). So there was fire burning before God's throne in heaven, and from the containment and support structure that Moses created on earth, there were actually seven of them - this is what I see John saying, in Revelation 1:4. "As in heaven, so on earth" (Matt 6:10) - as was seen in the heavenly temple, so was created the earthly copy.

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I suspect the FTT kid is banned from this site and not allowed to talk to 'insiders' anything 'negative'. He/she reckoned he/she knew it all (having been taught WL all-incisive high peak blah blah) and had confidently declared AMA (ask me anything)...
We've all been there. I was confident, once. I knew all the answers. But life has a way of showing us that God alone has all the answers.

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Now this kid is learning. Pray for him/her that The Lord reveals Himself and His own word, that this one in The Lord's hand is supported by The Lord Himself. Sad spies and sad leaders in the LSM controlled system. Is it worth it? Butcher the young that you shepherded. Lord Jesus Christ is coming soon.
I'm critical of LSM and FTT thinking, but they're no worse than I or you or anyone; they're just human beings trying to do their best. Unfortunately they're completely blind to the effect of human culture on their understanding, their social arrangements and their behaviors. They think that everything they hold forth to the world is straight from the throne of heaven, unaltered, but it's been distorted by the lens of human culture, and woven in by the passage of human history. And the harder and more stubbornly one holds on, the harder becomes the experience causing one to let go. Let's pray for grace for each other, that we may follow the pattern of our Lord, and empty ourselves.

I'll leave it at this: we probably can't reconstruct exactly what John was thinking, on Patmos, as he composed his message to the mainland. He seems to have been deliberately obscure. In this, he was following the pattern set by his Lord, who spoke parables to the crowds, but secretly revealed to His closest followers. I think that John was essentially writing in open code, and one must dig into John's sources, especially Daniel, Ezekiel, and Isaiah. His allusions are constant, but they're often veiled or mashed together. And I suspect deliberately so: one must almost become a "disciple" of John to make any headway (which may have been his intent).

See e.g
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psalm 78
A Maskil of Asaph. Listen, O my people, to my instruction; Incline your ears to the words of my mouth. I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old, Which we have heard and known, And our fathers have told us.….
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt 13
All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.".….
Additionally note that in public Jesus would speak elliptical sayings, riddles, then close with, "He who has an ear to hear, let him hear..." which is exactly what John wrote to each of the seven churches in Revelations 2 and 3. In other words, I'm not going to reveal my parable, but if you have diligence, and patience, and humility, perhaps God will open your ears and you'll hear the Spirit's speaking. You already have the anointing, and have no need that man teach you anything (1 John 2:20, 27). Be patient and God will speak what He wishes. But you first have to let go of YOUR wishes, your thoughts and intentions. And your culture. It's a hindrance to the Spirit's utterance. So buy some eye-salve.

As usual, I've probably written far too much and muddied things up.
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Old 12-03-2015, 08:09 AM   #14
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Why is the church in Moses Lake a "rebel church", while WN could form an independent church? And Martin Luther, for that matter? Why wasn't WN's church a "rebel church" also? Why wasn't Luther's church a "rebel church"?
It all depends on which side of the divide one stands.

I left the Recovery in 2005 during the lead up to LSM's official Whistler ITERO quarantine of Titus Chu. What troubled me so much was the simple fact that we were forced to choose sides. I thought we were a "local" church, with local autonomy. Not so! All my brothers and sisters were forced to choose between regional headquarters in Cleveland, and national headquarters in Anaheim. Things got real ugly.

Martin Luther was condemned and targeted for assassination by the Pope and his thugs. There's a reason why the mafia grew up in Italy. Since I grew up with Prussian ancestry in a Catholic home, Luther was viewed with mixed feelings.

The church in Moses Lake was condemned for no other reason than they wanted to remain true to their vision: a "local" church, with local leadership, answering only to the Lord. LSM will never accept that! They condemn it as "independence," but consider that every single positive example in the Bible exhibited "independence" also. What about Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua and Caleb, David, Samuel, Jesus, Stephen, Paul, and so many others I left out? They all were independent, and dependent on God alone! Otherwise they could never be faithful to their Lord and God.

We applauded W. Nee for leaving the "system," but now that same "system" inside the Recovery goes after those who leave for the same reasons!
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Old 12-03-2015, 08:14 AM   #15
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If you think I'm playing games with words, I'm not; in fact it's LC members who are playing with words. They do what everybody else does, which is give things names. LC members are called "saints", while everyone else is not? Unaffiliated Christian groups are called "free groups" and are condemned, while affiliated Christian groups are called "denominations" and are condemned also? It's like WL created a fantasy world where nobody is right, and nobody can possibly be right. How can anyone have fellowship in such an atmosphere, heavy with condemnation and judgment? A place where words mean whatever you want them to mean, only to mean something else when the need changes?
Well said aron. How true, how very true! Great post.
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Old 12-03-2015, 11:04 AM   #16
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But the word "one" in Biblical context doesn't necessitate a numerical understanding, but rather perhaps a functional perspective. Jesus said, "You shall be one, even as I am one with the Father", and this presented a common theme in the Bible, that of agency. A rich person has agents working for them, who are one with his or her wishes, desires, plans. They go forth, and work, and report back to the Boss. As such, they are one. There are many, but they are all one.
What I am getting to, is that we can view the idea of being "one" as not a numerical quantity, but rather a quality, a state of being. God is the "God of hosts" but God is one. There are many angels, and many "ministering spirits" (Heb 1:14), but one Spirit (Eph 4:4).

Conversely, Satan presides over a kingdom divided. Its very state is bedlam. Jesus asked, "Who are you", and the demons answered "We are many". They can't be one, they'll never be one. Only God is one. Therefore I don't see seven spirits burning before the throne of God as violating anything, credal or otherwise. There is still one Spirit. There is one Lord, one God and Father over all, etc.
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Old 12-04-2015, 07:49 PM   #17
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Why is the church in Moses Lake a "rebel church", while WN could form an independent church?
Well, since Lee's ministry became basis for fellowship among local churches, when a local church disassociates from LSM, a locality such as Moses Lake is viewed as being independent. Thus a rebel church.
In my opinion this is the result of an "Us versus Them" mentality that is prevalent among the local churches.
What I believe to be true Moses Lake is open to fellowship with fellow Washington state localities. It is the other Washington state localities that are not open to fellowship with Moses Lake.
That being the ground of the church among LSM churches is the LSM publications. Apart from LSM publications, there is no ground for fellowship with other Christians.
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Old 12-05-2015, 08:15 PM   #18
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- Why were women prominent in the early "recovery" movement, but now they can't even give a message in church on Sunday morning? Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, etc etc; there were dozens functioning alongside WN. Ironically, one hundred years ago, women couldn't vote or hold public office, but could function in WN's "Little Flock" movement. Today women can run for President but can't speak on Sunday morning? What got recovered, here?
One of today's leading ones, RK, once told us that he thought the only thing worse than a rebellious brother was a spiritual sister. Do you think he'd be able to say that in front of M.E. Barber, who'd shepherded Watchman Nee? Or to Miss Groves, a missionary co-worker of Barber? Or to Ruth Lee, or Peace Wang, or Dora Yu? I doubt it. I think there is some serious disconnect here.
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Old 12-05-2015, 08:38 PM   #19
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One of today's leading ones, RK, once told us that he thought the only thing worse than a rebellious brother was a spiritual sister. Do you think he'd be able to say that in front of M.E. Barber, who'd shepherded Watchman Nee? Or to Miss Groves, a missionary co-worker of Barber? Or to Ruth Lee, or Peace Wang, or Dora Yu? I doubt it. I think there is some serious disconnect here.
I'm sure that RK's attitude came from Lee himself. The so-called "sisters' rebellion" was an eye-opener. In the early days Lee acknowledged the talents in the sisters and worked with them to care for others. Then the opportune time came to throw them under the bus ... so they did. After that, the sisters' place was in the kitchen.
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Old 12-06-2015, 07:55 AM   #20
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In the early days Lee acknowledged the talents in the sisters and worked with them to care for others. Then the opportune time came to throw them under the bus ...
I think this is true, and speaks to a larger issue. In the early days, WL was probably more tolerant, and inclusive, because he had to be. Once he consolidated power, those whom he initially accepted, used, and worked alongside were either suppressed or expelled. Now, they were no longer needed; now they were threats to power. Thus, the motive spirit reveals itself: "It is a spirit of human power, not of love." This was WL's diagnosis of his close followers, but it also applied to himself, as WN's close follower.
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Old 12-07-2015, 12:47 PM   #21
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I'm sure that RK's attitude came from Lee himself. The so-called "sisters' rebellion" was an eye-opener.
I believe RK's attitude came from something else. As for the so-called sister's rebellion....that's was the politically expedient thing to do at the time. As I see whenever WL had a problem with a particular serving one whether it was Max or Christian, he saw to it their wives were publically shamed when their husband's were out of town. Whether he did the shaming or sent a pawn to do it.
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Old 12-08-2015, 03:57 PM   #22
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How things changed. One of my first trainings in the Anaheim convention center WL thought he had trouble making his point and very spontaneously called at least half dozen people whom he knew could possibly contribute come forward and speak to the subject for a few minutes. Averil Hendrickson was one of them and the only sister. She did very well. To my observation she did as well as any but such an observation is not worth much from 40 years ago. You can be sure something like that would not take place today.

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Old 12-11-2015, 05:56 PM   #23
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We can't have sisters 'blending' with brothers. What kind of testimony would that be?
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Old 12-13-2015, 06:39 PM   #24
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Our dear brother/sister only posted once. May the Lord destroy the strongholds of satan. And release our brother /sister to post again.
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Old 12-15-2015, 06:31 AM   #25
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Our dear brother/sister only posted once. May the Lord destroy the strongholds of satan. And release our brother /sister to post again.
I'd have a full-time trainee ask their trainer:

1. "Why were women prominent in the early work of recovery, from Madame Guyon and Jessie Penn-Lewis to Margaret Barber, Peace Wang and Ruth Lee, and 100 years later this is no longer the case? What happened?"

2. "Why did Watchman Nee use Christian writings from ancient sources up to contemporary, while we have "One Trumpet" and only draw from one source? Why could Nee pick through varied writings, taking what was good and balancing them, yet we're expected to accept only Nee and Lee, and that 'whole cloth', complete and entire? Why was Nee able to exercise such discernment and judgment while we're not?"

I could think of other questions, but in the interest of simplicity and brevity offer those two.

My own answers are: 1. Women were used while it was expedient. But eventually it was no longer expedient. Just like with John Ingalls, Max Rapoport, and so many others; they find that this is a ministry of expedience. What's good, or useful, or praised today, may be rejected, suppressed, or forgotten when it's no longer needed. Women had their moment, the "recovery" was established, and then they could be cast aside. The ministry of the age had moved on.

2. Nee had discernment as the Apostle of the Age. God's Deputy. The rest of us are to exercise our discernment to realize that he was God's Man of the Hour; now we no longer need to do the hard work Nee did, of thinking and proving all things.

Ditto with Lee. He was bright enough to realize that Nee was his meal ticket - sorry, that Nee was the Man of the Hour, God's chosen Vessel of the Age. And Lee's heart was pure enough to follow the Vision of the Age without deviation, and bring it to us. The rest of us should realize that it's all figured out, and we can become Witness Lee Tape Recorders in the his God-Man Duplication Factory. Don't bother to read any other materials, because that will just bring in confusion and frustrate God's sole move on the earth today.

That second answer had a touch of sarcasm, sorry. In actuality it's man-elevating and man-worshipping human culture, paired with self-aggrandizement - "everybody else makes mistakes; not me". Present that heady brew to people who need to be told what to say and think, and there's a unholy trinity at work. It's seen in Local Church historical narratives: "From the Darkness (i.e. fallen and degraded Christianity), God raised up His Chosen Servant of the Present Revelation, who alone could lead us all into the Wonderful Recovered Church age!"

I bet if you asked a 'responsible one' in the FTT they would give you a sentence like the last one, with a straight face. All you'll get is recitation of pet phrases.
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: I'm a student in the FTT - AMA

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Ama means to ask me anything.
Thought this guy might stick around a little longer the way he talked.
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Old 12-15-2015, 04:55 PM   #27
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Disciplined.
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:08 PM   #28
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Thought this guy might stick around a little longer the way he talked.
I bet an FTT 'serving one' got wind that a trainee was on the dreaded internet and put a stop to it, right quick. But I wanted to answer them, anyway; eventually another one of them will end up here, looking around. So there's a couple of questions waiting for ya.
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: I'm a student in the FTT - AMA

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I bet an FTT 'serving one' got wind that a trainee was on the dreaded internet and put a stop to it, right quick. But I wanted to answer them, anyway; eventually another one of them will end up here, looking around. So there's a couple of questions waiting for ya.
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Old 12-20-2015, 12:36 AM   #30
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Default Re: I'm a student in the FTT - AMA

All (and to AMA):

He/She did get piled on with a multitude of response. It would have been overwhelming.

But if it was a genuine question - a burning one - no amount of push-back would have quelched it.

I remember my initial post, which caused this forum to rain down upon me in critique (snide, sarcastic and otherwise). I didn't realize how pointed and insular my language was. I didn't realize my assumed premises. But I also didn't relinquish one single point until I owned them myself.

To date, I have had a multitude of debates and disagreements on this forum. And I have had faith-affirming relationships here. Its been years since I posted here, but I have never forgotten the value of the dialogue this forum presents. Its only "damaging" if you don't own your own faith. Otherwise, it is a sharpening stone.

Post or do not post. But do so for the sake of your faith, not your curriculum.

In Love,

Peter
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