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Old 09-19-2015, 01:21 PM   #1
Jesus4Me
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Default Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

Hello, brothers & sisters,

I am not nor was I ever a part of the Local Church Movement.

As far as their teachings goes, I may have come across it in some of the other christian forums, but my recollection is not good at the moment.

As for this forum, before registering, I have read several threads touching base on several "teachers" of that movement & the disagreements with their teachings & their "corrupt" leadership roles, but I'll decline from replying on that in this thread since it is for the introduction of myself to the forum.

I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead; and by His grace & by His help, therefore I trust Him as my Saviour that I am saved as He has led me to trust Him as my Good Shepherd that He will help me to follow Him as His disciple in seeking His glory and not be a disciple of another in seeking the glory of the other in His name.

Through many dangers, toils, and snares, Jesus has carried me through; freeing me from religious bondages like commitments, promises, and man made covenants to rest in His New Covenant & all His promises to me so that all I really need to do is live by faith in the Son of God to finish His work in me as I am living this reconicled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ. I find myself following Him when I live by faith in the Son of God in me and all His promises to me for living as His.

He has also kept me from seducing spirits that sought to lure me away from seeking the face of the Bridegroom to chasing after them for a sign, as the Lord taught me the role of the Holy Spirit which is to not speak of Himself in seeking His own glory ( John 5:31; 7:18; ) , but of the Son in seeking His glory as those led by the Spirit of God would be doing the same thing ( John 15:26-27 & John 8:17 ) for our combined witness to be true.

So as much as I believe in the Triune God, it is how believers use the Trinity doctrine that is to be discerned when it is the Father's will that if any believer wishes to honour the Father in worship, they can only do so by honouring the Son, not by also honouring the Holy Spirit too, because the Holy Spirit will not lead believers to testify nor worship in that manner for that worship to be "true". Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, but because of other spirits in the world, God the Father provided only one way in approaching Him and that is by way of the Son; and that includes worship, fellowship, and prayer. John 14:6 is not just about salvation, but for believers to abide in by how we have fellowship with the Father and that is thru the Son; the Bridegroom; For He is how we are married to God.

That is the gist of my introduction; the rest below is for any one interested in how the Lord led me to that view.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since the Nicene creed of 381 A.D., the way has been broaden ( Matthew 7:13-27 ) by including the Holy Spirit as Someone to address and to worship with the Father & the Son which is not the Father's will in how we are to approach Him (John 10:1 & John 5:22-23 & Philippians 2:5-13 ), thus suffering their houses to be broken through by a thief.

In 1994, the holy laughter movement was interdenomenational and thus no longer a streamlined Pentecostal/Charismatic event, fulfilling the description of a false prophet, gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles, being interdenomenational as it is as well as the Promise Keepers movement leading men into religious bondages nationwide.

This is why Luke's accounts of Jesus's warning in the last days was to strive ye to enter thru the straight gate, for many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able to ( Luke 13:24-30 ) since many churches & hymnals has led believers to address & worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

This is not about losing salvation. Do consider that there are two kinds of vessels in His House and it is considered a damnation to be received as a vessel unto dishonour in His House to be received later on after the great tribulation ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 & 2 Corinthians 9:24-27 & 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) since one can be saved, but left behind for not looking to Him for help to depart from inqiuity ( Luke 12:40-49 ). This is about being found abiding in Him to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Matthew 7:13-27 has Jesus ending with why so many houses are falling down for not listening to His words of John 14:6, hinted at in Matthew 7:13-14 and it is because of going around the Son ( John 10:1 ) as being the only way to honour & worship God the Father by including the honour & worship of the Holy Spirit.

If you note in all of these movements of the "Spirit", they address the Holy Spirit for these signs and wonders to come and it happens, and yet Jesus is the only One that can answers our prayers John 14:13-14 so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. The Son is the only Mediator ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ); not the Holy Spirit. The Son knows the mind of the Spirit to give the intercessions of the Spirit to the Father because the Spirit cannot utter them as His intercessions are unspeakable ( Romans 8:26-27 KJV only ) This is why the Father knows before we ask for ( Matthew 6:7-8 ) because it is the Son that searches our hearts ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ) that lives always to make intercessions for us ( Hebrews 7:25 ) so that whenever the Father says yes to either our intercessions or the Spirit's intercessions as given by the Son, the Son answers the prayers.

So that is why the Holy Spirit is not the One to be praying to and neither is the Holy Spirit the One answering those prayers in any of those movements of the "Spirit". The Holy Spirit receives/takes from Jesus, but the Holy Spirit gives the Son the credit & the glory ( John 16:13-15 ) so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answering those prayers ( John 14:13-14 ) The Holy Spirit is the Comforter; not the Mediator. It is not His job to be answering prayers nor to be prayed to as He is not at that throne of grace to be doing so.

This is why there is confusion whereas one movement of the "Spirit" will condemn another movement of the "Spirit" as not being of the Lord, and vise versa but they share the same rudiment as no good tree can produce an evil fruit and no evil tree can produce a good fruit. It's all bad.

That means all tongues that comes by without interpretation, thinking it is a prayer language, should be shunned ( 2 Timothy 2:16,24-26 ) as many of this kind of tongues comes by preaching the apostasy of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit "again" by the evidence of tongues ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & Hebrews 11:1-2,6 & Galatians 3:14,26 ). This is why believers are not to believe every spirit but test them ( 1 John 4:1-7 ) since one cannot receive the Holy Spirit again ( Luke 11:9-13 ), then those that testify that they had; were not really receiving the Holy Spirit again, but have fallen prey to seducing spirits in leading others to seek after them to receive them by the sign of tongues too; as this kind of tongues can be found in the world before Pentecost had come. Isaiah 8:19

Narrow the way back by seeking the face of the Bridegroom all the time because by honouring & glorifying the Son is the only way we can honour & glorify God the Father, and that is eactly what the Holy Spirit in us, Whom is God also, is leading us to do.

So I believe in the Triune God, but regardless of how one defines the Trinity doctrine, we are led by the Holy Spirit to honour the Son in glorifying the Son by testifying of the Son in seeking His glory and by Him the glory of God the Father. John 13:31-32

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I know that it is hard to find a fellowship in line with verse 10 above, but if the Lord is willing, maybe we can sharpen one another in the knowledge of Him so that although we may be bearing fruit, we may be purged to bear even more fruit in Christ's love.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Only God can cause the increase and so I am hoping He will minister through us all in gaining in our knowledge of Him so that our love may abound more & more. All we can do is trust the Lord Jesus as our Good Shepherd in getting us ready because I can't really get you ready; nor can I really get myself ready since my confidence is in the Lord to do His work in all of us to His glory.

Looking at all the iniquity and apostasy aboudning in these latter days where faith is hard to find, I often wonder if I am blind to any iniquity that I am doing, but my hope is in the Lord in being my Good Shepherd, and so in Him I trust to perfect that which concerneth me as I pray that He will minister to me thru His servants in the forum as I pray He is ministering thru me to others in sharing the "talents" He has given me to share in Christ's love.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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Old 09-19-2015, 04:17 PM   #2
aron
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Default Re: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus4Me View Post
In 1994, the holy laughter movement was interdenomenational and thus no longer a streamlined Pentecostal/Charismatic event, fulfilling the description of a false prophet, gathering grapes of thorns & figs of thistles, being interdenomenational as it is as well as the Promise Keepers movement leading men into religious bondages nationwide..
The LC is a Pentacostal/Charismatic group: they shout themselves into a state which they call "being in spirit", a la Revelation 1:10. "Cry out and shout, O inhabitant of Zion", we were told. So you'd shout yourself into such a state of excitement that they could tell you that the sky was green, and you'd shout it back.

Discernment was weakened and all sorts of stuff came in. Don't question, we were told. Just be "one".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus4Me View Post
This is why Luke's accounts of Jesus's warning in the last days was to strive ye to enter thru the straight gate, for many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able to ( Luke 13:24-30 ) since many churches & hymnals has led believers to address & worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

...

If you note in all of these movements of the "Spirit", they address the Holy Spirit for these signs and wonders to come and it happens, and yet Jesus is the only One that can answers our prayers John 14:13-14 so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. The Son is the only Mediator ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ); not the Holy Spirit. The Son knows the mind of the Spirit to give the intercessions of the Spirit to the Father because the Spirit cannot utter them as His intercessions are unspeakable ( Romans 8:26-27 KJV only ) This is why the Father knows before we ask for ( Matthew 6:7-8 ) because it is the Son that searches our hearts ( Hebrews 4:12-16 ) that lives always to make intercessions for us ( Hebrews 7:25 ) so that whenever the Father says yes to either our intercessions or the Spirit's intercessions as given by the Son, the Son answers the prayers.

So that is why the Holy Spirit is not the One to be praying to and neither is the Holy Spirit the One answering those prayers in any of those movements of the "Spirit". The Holy Spirit receives/takes from Jesus, but the Holy Spirit gives the Son the credit & the glory ( John 16:13-15 ) so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answering those prayers ( John 14:13-14 ) The Holy Spirit is the Comforter; not the Mediator. It is not His job to be answering prayers nor to be prayed to as He is not at that throne of grace to be doing so.

This is why there is confusion whereas one movement of the "Spirit" will condemn another movement of the "Spirit" as not being of the Lord, and vise versa but they share the same rudiment as no good tree can produce an evil fruit and no evil tree can produce a good fruit. It's all bad..
If you notice that the Roman Centurion told Jesus, "I also am a man under authority, with servants under me..." Jesus didn't say, "No, man! The Holy Spirit is the Third of the Trinity, co-equal with the Father and the Son!" When the Roman Centurion said "under" he meant "under". Jesus was "one" with the Father just as the Roman Centurion was "one" with Caesar. When you saw the Centurion, you saw Caesar, and when the Centurion told his servants, "Go", and "Come", and "Do this", it was Caesar speaking through him. So the servants obeyed the Centurion, who was under Caesar. Similarly, Jesus could just speak a word and the Centurion's servant would be healed.

Jesus didn't say, "No, man! You have the doctrine of the Trinity all wrong!" He just marveled, and said, "Amen. Let it be done", and walked away.

My sense is that we don't care for stuff like this, today, because we have our pet doctrines. We cling to the doctrine and ignore what the Word is saying.

Why did Moses see an angel in the thorn bush, but also see God (Exod 3:4; cf Acts 7:30)? Why did Hagar tell the angel, "You are the God who hears me"(Genesis 16:13)? Why did the angel tell John, "Don't worship me! I am your fellow servant. Worship God!"? I don't hear people talk about these things much, probably because we have our neat formulas. Never mess up a neat formula by reading the Word of God. Just ignore the word, what it is saying, and everything will remain neat, and clear and simple.
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Old 09-20-2015, 08:03 AM   #3
Jesus4Me
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Default Re: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The LC is a Pentacostal/Charismatic group: they shout themselves into a state which they call "being in spirit", a la Revelation 1:10. "Cry out and shout, O inhabitant of Zion", we were told. So you'd shout yourself into such a state of excitement that they could tell you that the sky was green, and you'd shout it back.

Discernment was weakened and all sorts of stuff came in. Don't question, we were told. Just be "one".
Thanks for the info. Lord willing, I shall find out more about the LC movement as time goes on.

Quote:
If you notice that the Roman Centurion told Jesus, "I also am a man under authority, with servants under me..." Jesus didn't say, "No, man! The Holy Spirit is the Third of the Trinity, co-equal with the Father and the Son!" When the Roman Centurion said "under" he meant "under". Jesus was "one" with the Father just as the Roman Centurion was "one" with Caesar. When you saw the Centurion, you saw Caesar, and when the Centurion told his servants, "Go", and "Come", and "Do this", it was Caesar speaking through him. So the servants obeyed the Centurion, who was under Caesar. Similarly, Jesus could just speak a word and the Centurion's servant would be healed.

Jesus didn't say, "No, man! You have the doctrine of the Trinity all wrong!" He just marveled, and said, "Amen. Let it be done", and walked away.

My sense is that we don't care for stuff like this, today, because we have our pet doctrines. We cling to the doctrine and ignore what the Word is saying.
Well, one can ignore what the word is saying by misapplication of the verses to support a pet doctrines so how can one discern this? With His help. That means being opened to correction when one is reading inbetween the lines of what is plainly being written.

The Roman Centurion was referring to Jesus's authority as God; and how things will obey because He is God. The Roman Centurion was referring to the word spoken by Jesus as divine authority as making it happen just as the Roman Centurion's word make it happen by the servants beneathe him. The Romans Centurion did not mention any servant for Jesus to command and so that is why he did not mean it in the way you seem to be applying it as meaning when he was using his servants as to how his word is accomplished in the human way because all Jesus had to do was give the word because He is God.

Quote:
Why did Moses see an angel in the thorn bush, but also see God (Exod 3:4; cf Acts 7:30)?
That is a good question; but have you ever noticed how angels are referenced sometimes as angels and then the "angel of the Lord" is referenced in that incident as is in Exodus 3:2 before saying it is the Lord in Exodus 3:4? I am close to understanding it with His help, but the incident you had cited was not just an angel. This is one of the many visitations of the pre-incarnate appearance of the Son of God; the divine Word. Even Exodus 3:6 shows Moses being afraid to look upon God.

Quote:
Why did Hagar tell the angel, "You are the God who hears me"(Genesis 16:13)?
Another example of the angel of the Lord as referring to God.

Quote:
Why did the angel tell John, "Don't worship me! I am your fellow servant. Worship God!"? I don't hear people talk about these things much, probably because we have our neat formulas. Never mess up a neat formula by reading the Word of God. Just ignore the word, what it is saying, and everything will remain neat, and clear and simple.
Well, the incident you cited, that was an actual angel whereas the incident below; that was God, if you note how He did not say do not do that.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

I admit that I fail to see why God would use that term angel of the Lord in those incidents when obviously it was about the Son of God. Maybe because He understands that readers will have a hard time coming to grip to the reality of the Triune God? He seems to admit this so.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And yet, in other places in the O.T. & the N.T., we see scripture testifying about Jesus as the God that men had seen in the O.T.

John 1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So Who was the God that men had seen in the O.T.?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me....46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So even the Jews understood that Jesus was testifying that Moses was writing about Him as the God that men has seen.

Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

Genesis 26:1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 3:16Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

Exodus 4:1And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee.

So it is a pretty safe bet that Jesus is the God that men had seen in the O.T.

But what about this "Trinity" thing? I am not going to address the Trinity doctrine because people can redefine it, and we may not be on the same page in my sharing this with you. I may know what I am saying, but you might be thinking something else that I may not agree with if it was a part of the Trinity doctrine or a modified one. Best stick with the scripture.

One question we can address is how can God establish a word in testimony or even judge someone if He is just a One Person God when His word requires for man that there is to be another two or three witnesses to do so as one witness can not ( Deuteronomy 17:6 & 19:15 ) & still not allowed to accomplish this ( Matthew 18:16 & 2 Corinthians 13:1 & 1 Timothy 5:19 ). Does this speak to the make up of our One God in having 3 Witnesses within?

Look at the plurality of the One God in verse 26 for requsting to make man in their image, and yet when creating man, God did so as in the singular.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So there were 3 Divine Witnesses within the One God to establish a word in creation of man. So that is how in according to His word for man in establishing a word, this speaks to how God established a word in creation.

The same goes for God judging a people or any one.

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

So here, the Lord spoke of delivering a judgment that refers to Himself in the plural sense and then when performing that judgment, it was in the singular sense.

So what's going on?

At this link is to Strong's Concordance to the King James Bible of Genesis 1st chapter.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B01C001.htm

Click on "God" on that first verse to see the Hebrew text it was translated from.

Quote:
'elohiym =
plural of ''elowahh' (433); gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Even Jesus testified to the plurality of God in testifying how God is with us now as saved believers.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.....26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

By His own words, Jesus cannot testify of Himself as God, and so two more Witnesses was required.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This was necessary as Jesus testified to fulfill all righteousness; this prophesy in Isaiah.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

God is speaking here and yet the Lord God & His Spirit sent Him? This is how we are to lean on Him for wisdom and discernment because He can lead us to the answers we seek in the scripture as kept in the KJV as God provided a way back to Himself thru Himself; back to the Father through His Son as the Holy Ghost is also a Witness that we are saved and thus His.

Acts 5:32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:

Ephesians 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

See how 1 John 5:7 is actually the original scripture at this link to this thread in this forum.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...3804#post43804

May God cause the increase in the knowledge of Him.
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Old 09-21-2015, 04:31 AM   #4
aron
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Default Re: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by Jesus4Me View Post
... one can ignore what the word is saying by misapplication of the verses to support a pet doctrines so how can one discern this? With His help. That means being opened to correction when one is reading in between the lines of what is plainly being written.
Agreed. As you said, Iron sharpens iron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus4Me View Post
The Roman Centurion was referring to Jesus's authority as God; and how things will obey because He is God. The Roman Centurion was referring to the word spoken by Jesus as divine authority as making it happen just as the Roman Centurion's word make it happen by the servants beneath him. The Romans Centurion did not mention any servant for Jesus to command and so that is why he did not mean it in the way you seem to be applying it as meaning when he was using his servants as to how his word is accomplished in the human way because all Jesus had to do was give the word because He is God.
Negative. The Centurion said, "I also am a man under authority..." He meant it was not his authority, but he was under the authority of Caesar. The key is to translate the Greek "Ypo" as "under" (almost all English translations do this). Perhaps you're misapplying the verse, as you say, to support a pet doctrine. In this case, the Centurion was arguably recognizing Jesus as man under the authority of God. He knew that Jesus merely needed to speak a word, and the servants under Him would go forth and heal. Jesus didn't need to go under the man's roof, and be defiled.

If John Kerry, the Secretary of State for the USA, meets with Angela Merkel, the Chancellor of Germany, he can say, "On behalf of President Obama and the people of the USA, I declare thus and such". Or he can go to the consulate in Dusseldorf and tell them to give safe haven to a person, Mr. Smith. Then Mr. Smith, though physically in Germany, will be on the legal equivalent of US soil. The ambassador has the power to represent the President, because he is "under", i.e. obedient to, the President, who is overseeing the laws of the USA. So the ambassador has power because he is under power. That is what the Centurion was alluding to. The Centurion was not Caesar, but was under Caesar, and spoke for Caesar, and was an agent of Caesar's authority, and was obeyed by those under him. Caesar's kingdom, or dominion, was extended through the agency of the Centurion, just as President Obama's power is conveyed through his agent, the Secretary of State John Kerry, or God in Heaven was conveyed on earth through His Messiah, or Christ who is Jesus the Galilean Jew.

Jesus prayed, "Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as in heaven." Jesus didn't pray, "I am God, so My will be done on earth as in heaven". As a man, He was fully subject to the Father God in heaven. He prayed, "Our Father, who art in heaven", He didn't pray, "I am the Father, come down from heaven." Nor did the Centurion say that he was Caesar. But the Centurion was under Caesar, and obeyed Caesar's will, and thus could represent Caesar fully to the servants.

Jesus, as a man on earth, was fully under God who is in heaven, so could speak forth God's will in full, and if you heard Him you heard God. When you saw Him you saw the kingdom of God come to earth. No other man was under God like this. The Centurion couldn't speak a word to heal his beloved servant, but Jesus could. Why? Because Jesus was fully in God's will, and the Centurion as a sinner was not. Jesus was an agent of God, while the Centurion was merely an agent of Caesar. The Centurion knew this, and appealed to this, and Jesus marveled at his faith, and complied.

"But Jesus is God", you reply. Yes, that is true, but that's not what the passage was about. It was about obedience to the will of God, and the ability to function, as man on earth, fully in accord with the will of the Father God in heaven. Only Jesus could do that it full. Every other man, even the OT prophets who healed, called fire down from heaven, and could stop the rain, didn't have the capacity to function under God as the man Jesus Christ of Nazareth did. They were merely types and figures of the coming Seed of David. The Centurion was aware of this, and because of his position as a man "under" authority (of someone else), he recognized the great power Jesus wielded, even "spooky action from a distance" (to play on Einstein's objection to quantum theory). The moment Jesus spoke the word, the servant was healed. As the scripture says, "Your word runs swiftly" (Psa 147:15).
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Old 09-21-2015, 04:56 AM   #5
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Default Re: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by Jesus4Me View Post
Hello, brothers & sisters,

I am not nor was I ever a part of the Local Church Movement.

As far as their teachings goes, I may have come across it in some of the other christian forums, but my recollection is not good at the moment.

As for this forum, before registering, I have read several threads touching base on several "teachers" of that movement & the disagreements with their teachings & their "corrupt" leadership roles, but I'll decline from replying on that in this thread since it is for the introduction of myself to the forum.

I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead; and by His grace & by His help, therefore I trust Him as my Saviour that I am saved as He has led me to trust Him as my Good Shepherd that He will help me to follow Him as His disciple in seeking His glory and not be a disciple of another in seeking the glory of the other in His name.
By the way, as an ambassador of the Local Church Discussions forum, welcome. If you confess the name of the Lord Jesus Christ then you are welcome as a Christian member of the Body of Christ. Although the forum was created to discuss the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, I (speaking on my own behalf) think that it's open to all. "Receive those whom God has received in Christ Jesus" was Paul's suggestion, and I think it's well put.

Ultimately our focus is not the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, but Jesus Christ, and the discussion of the teachings is pertinent because the Nee and Lee programme was supposed to lead us to Christ, but it was through a supposedly "normal" church (Nee's term) that was in apposition to supposedly abnormal Christianity. And it turned out, for many of us, that Nee's "normal" church, as run by his supposedly closest co-worker Lee, was a charnel house, full of dead men's bones.

We are therefore here, discussing the teachings of these men, and trying to discern how it all went south, so badly. My own take is that Nee read the Bible with a cultural bias (we all do), and created a social structure which was "normal" according to his cultural presuppositions. So the idea of "losing face", for example, though oriental in source, was seen in the hierarchical workings of the LC church group - the Maximum Brother (MB), even if he made a mistake, couldn't be allowed to "lose face", because the integrity of the whole group rested upon the power and authority of MB as "Deputy God". Which means if he made a mistake, then those who witnessed the mistake got "disappeared". I am not kidding - they'd literally be written out of the LC record, as if they never had existed. The MB, like the RCC Pope, functioned ex cathedra (with infallibility) and there was nothing anyone could do because "God put him there."

All of which led to a pretty corrupt system, and a lot of people got hurt. The Anaheim branch of the movement currently controls several hundred LC congregations throughout the world, another branch in the Midwest USA and Canada controls perhaps several dozen, and a Brazilian branch controls several dozen (perhaps over a hundred), including ones composed Brazilian immigrants in the USA and Canada. In some cities there are thus two (or three?) congregations, each claiming to represent Watchman Nee's normal church. But they don't talk to each other, or anyone else - each group claims the truth of the present age, under their MB. Many, whose Christian faith was wholly tied up in the LC movement, got so discouraged or confused that they abandoned the Christian walk entirely. Thus, we see the discussion forum here.

Anyway, welcome aboard. One hopes that the discussion of Jesus Christ would be compelling enough that those unfamiliar with the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the LC would be induced to participate.
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Old 09-21-2015, 06:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

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Agreed. As you said, Iron sharpens iron.


Negative. The Centurion said, "I also am a man under authority..." He meant it was not his authority, but he was under the authority of Caesar. The key is to translate the Greek "Ypo" as "under" (almost all English translations do this). Perhaps you're misapplying the verse, as you say, to support a pet doctrine. In this case, the Centurion was arguably recognizing Jesus as man under the authority of God. He knew that Jesus merely needed to speak a word, and the servants under Him would go forth and heal. Jesus didn't need to go under the man's roof, and be defiled.
Oh, it is very possible that I am misapplying the verse, but then again; we have two accounts of that incident, right?

Matthew 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.

Here, Jesus had said to the centurion that He, personally, will come & healed the servant. He did not infer sending a servant or imply a servant underneathe Him to be doing this for Him.

Then the centurion stopped Him and expplained why.

8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

So already, the servant acknowledge Him as Lord and explained he was not worthy to come under his roof, but believed that Jesus need only to speak the word, and his servant shall be healed.

Just so you know where I was coming from in my earlier post before we read on to his expounding on his authority in relations to His, but only to confess his faith in Him as God.

9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Now maybe you are referring to the incident as given account by in Luke?

Luke 7:1Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum. 2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. 3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. 4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: 5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue. 6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof: 7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. 8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 10 And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

Okay. I can see how you got your perspective on it as if referring to Jesus being also under authority as He was but Matthew's account left out the word also in verse 9, but one could further misread your application further by saying that the centurion just saw Jesus as a man with that "For I also am a man set under authority" and so discernment is needed here since in both incidents, the centurion had acknowledged Him as Lord, but the point of the incident was his faith in Him to give the word and his servant shall be healed that he had impressed Jesus to be marvelled by that centurion's faith.

Now; I could say that Luke's account has some more details in showing how the centurion had spoken unto Jesus by way of his friends; and back again, as it makes sense since his actions matches his message to Jesus, but I believe the word "also" is where I wonder, if left out, his message would be how I was reading it in Matthew's had he said it personally. In other words, with his friends speaking for him, I can understand why they would include the word "also" in his personal message to Him.

Anyway, I can see how we may disagree on this reading of it as surely it seems that the account in Matthew is not the full story, but between the two accounts, it was his faith in acknolwedging Him as Lord and it was his faith that marvelled Jesus that he believed in Him to just say the word for that servant to be healed.

Iur difference is that Matthew's account reported Jesus as saying "7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him." whereas Luke's account did not. Hopefully, you can see why I believe that statement defers from your application of the reading in Luke's whereas your reading in Luke's account of "8 For I also am a man set under authority,.." whereas the account in Matthew was not applying that word "also" as if referring to Jesus of His authority over servants or to referring Jesus as a man, but as a testimony from his friends that were speaking for the centurion. Had the centuron given the message himself, I believe he would not use the word "also".

It is disturbing to see two accounts deferring in this way, but in essence, how the centurion had spoken is still him speaking; and his faith was shown by his actions; and not just in his words in Luke's, but they both give account that Jesus marvelled at this centurion's faith in Him to point it out to the Jews around Him at that time that for Him to heal the servant, He need not come, but give the word.

So now I understand why we are in a disagreement, but I do have a point about the use of the word "also" in Luke's account since one can misconstrued that the centurion was also referring to Jesus as just a man, when He was not, since the centurion had Him addressed as Lord, personally, and by way of his friends in both accounts to show his faith in Him as God.
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Old 09-21-2015, 06:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

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By the way, as an ambassador of the Local Church Discussions forum, welcome. If you confess the name of the Lord Jesus Christ then you are welcome as a Christian member of the Body of Christ. Although the forum was created to discuss the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, I (speaking on my own behalf) think that it's open to all. "Receive those whom God has received in Christ Jesus" was Paul's suggestion, and I think it's well put.
Yes, I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead. And thanks to Him, I do trust Him as my Good Shepherd & my Friend in working in me and guiding me to live as His friend by the grace of God.

I was wondering if I was allowed to post just anywhere in the forum when most of the divisions in this forum seems to read a purpose for the LC discussions only. I did try to respect the areas as best as I could. Not sure if my thread in that Extras Extras was appropriate or not or if it should just be in Alternative views strictly.

Quote:
Ultimately our focus is not the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, but Jesus Christ, and the discussion of the teachings is pertinent because the Nee and Lee programme was supposed to lead us to Christ, but it was through a supposedly "normal" church (Nee's term) that was in apposition to supposedly abnormal Christianity. And it turned out, for many of us, that Nee's "normal" church, as run by his supposedly closest co-worker Lee, was a charnel house, full of dead men's bones.

We are therefore here, discussing the teachings of these men, and trying to discern how it all went south, so badly. My own take is that Nee read the Bible with a cultural bias (we all do), and created a social structure which was "normal" according to his cultural presuppositions. So the idea of "losing face", for example, though oriental in source, was seen in the hierarchical workings of the LC church group - the Maximum Brother (MB), even if he made a mistake, couldn't be allowed to "lose face", because the integrity of the whole group rested upon the power and authority of MB as "Deputy God". Which means if he made a mistake, then those who witnessed the mistake got "disappeared". I am not kidding - they'd literally be written out of the LC record, as if they never had existed. The MB, like the RCC Pope, functioned ex cathedra (with infallibility) and there was nothing anyone could do because "God put him there."

All of which led to a pretty corrupt system, and a lot of people got hurt. The Anaheim branch of the movement currently controls several hundred LC congregations throughout the world, another branch in the Midwest USA and Canada controls perhaps several dozen, and a Brazilian branch controls several dozen (perhaps over a hundred), including ones composed Brazilian immigrants in the USA and Canada. In some cities there are thus two (or three?) congregations, each claiming to represent Watchman Nee's normal church. But they don't talk to each other, or anyone else - each group claims the truth of the present age, under their MB. Many, whose Christian faith was wholly tied up in the LC movement, got so discouraged or confused that they abandoned the Christian walk entirely. Thus, we see the discussion forum here.
Yes. It seems to be the major part of the forum.

What areas are opened exactly to other discussions not pertaining to the LC movement?

Quote:
Anyway, welcome aboard. One hopes that the discussion of Jesus Christ would be compelling enough that those unfamiliar with the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the LC would be induced to participate.
Thanks for the welcome. How long I participate is up to the Lord Jesus Christ since my folks' computer is acting funny. It could shut down by itself again. It did it again before I came here this morning.

Anyway, I am hoping to serve Him as I trust Him to help me be always ready to go when the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride of Christ.
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Old 09-21-2015, 09:27 AM   #8
UntoHim
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Default Re: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by Jesus4Me View Post
I was wondering if I was allowed to post just anywhere in the forum when most of the divisions in this forum seems to read a purpose for the LC discussions only. I did try to respect the areas as best as I could. Not sure if my thread in that Extras Extras was appropriate or not or if it should just be in Alternative views strictly.

What areas are opened exactly to other discussions not pertaining to the LC movement?
Hi Jesus4Me.
Thanks for your consideration. As you have probably noticed, this Forum is populated mostly with former members of The Local Church of Witness Lee. We do have a number of current LC members as well. There are also a number of people who have family in or have some other kind of relationship with a current LC member. Occasionally we hear from other interested parties, such as Christian apologists interested in the teachings and practices in the Movement.

So the scope of the forum is rather limited. Alternative Views might be the best place for you to continue on with LCD. However, you must realize that "the rules of engagement" are quite different on Alt Views. A Christian/biblical/evangelical worldview is not assumed, and in fact, most of the participants hold a different worldview altogether. But if you want to participate, it's really the best place if you want to have discussions with forum members.

Your brother who is unto Him.


PS: Here are some forums you may want to consider (if you're not already aware of them)
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forum.php
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forum.php?
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Old 09-23-2015, 06:37 AM   #9
Jesus4Me
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Default Re: Greetings in the Name of Jesus Christ

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Hi Jesus4Me.
Thanks for your consideration. As you have probably noticed, this Forum is populated mostly with former members of The Local Church of Witness Lee. We do have a number of current LC members as well. There are also a number of people who have family in or have some other kind of relationship with a current LC member. Occasionally we hear from other interested parties, such as Christian apologists interested in the teachings and practices in the Movement.

So the scope of the forum is rather limited. Alternative Views might be the best place for you to continue on with LCD. However, you must realize that "the rules of engagement" are quite different on Alt Views. A Christian/biblical/evangelical worldview is not assumed, and in fact, most of the participants hold a different worldview altogether. But if you want to participate, it's really the best place if you want to have discussions with forum members.

Your brother who is unto Him.

PS: Here are some forums you may want to consider (if you're not already aware of them)
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forum.php
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forum.php?
I reckon some kind of a response is warranted to your reply. I had just thought "okay" and left it at that, but probably should reply.

Okay. Thanks for the clarification and for suggesting another forum.
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