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The Local Church in the 21st Century Observations and Discussions regarding the Local Church Movement in the Here and Now |
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#1 |
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With respect to Lee's "ground of locality" doctrine, I was wondering what the practice of "taking the ground" actually means and how it came about. I understand what it is supposed to mean, but in my experience, it is a phrase that is thrown about quite loosely. My understanding from reading through different threads is that this practice of "taking the ground" is some type of addendum that came sometime after Lee came to the U.S.
To clarify my question, I will give a little bit of background. There are at least two (maybe more) LC's near me that meet as the church in X, however, they haven't "taken the ground" yet. For past LC's I have seen start, this action of "taking the ground" has usually been signified by a "ground-breaking" meeting, where LC's from the area will gather together. This issue recently caught my attention when the church in X wasn't listed as one of the numerous LC's in a certain area. The church in X has been meeting together for quite some time, but hasn't "taken the ground", so they aren't officially called the church in X, and I don't think they have any problem with not being recognized as an official LC yet. In other cases, I have seen LC's that haven't "taken the ground" where they are merely a "satellite" church of a larger nearby LC. Saints in one city merely start meeting with the new LC, and suddenly there are now saints meeting in that city (even though non-LC saints have been meeting there long before). It seems to me that this whole idea of a LC needing to "take the ground" shows a big hole in Lee's "ground of locality" doctrine. With these LC efforts like GTCA, "taking the ground" seems to merely involved some pro-LSM saints moving to a city with no LSM church, meeting there for a period of time, gaining a few new people, then declaring that they are the church in X. At any rate my best guess as to what taking the ground really means is that it is some type of stamp of approval that comes from headquarters. This might possibly involve choosing elders and insuring that the church is supportive of the ministry. Other than that, I can't really determine what it really means. |
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#2 | |
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I may not have the facts completely accurate, but the outcome was the same. What it really means, taking the ground is just a pretentious display. If the name is available, anyone can register as the Church in _____ if they're willing to pay the fees. |
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#3 | |
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#4 | |
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I remembered I read somewhere that when the was the GL split, there were two churches in Toronto. When I google it, there are two links thechurchintoronto.org and thelocalchurchintoronto.org, I wonder which one is which? ![]() |
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#5 | |
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Perhaps when Toronto experiences a really big increase, they can follow this model: IBEW Local 353.
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And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
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#6 | |
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#7 | |
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Oh, and all of your questions, Freedom (and mine, too) -- they're shaped like boogie-serpents. ![]() ![]() ![]() Lions, tigers, and bears, oh my! Be afraid, be very, very afraid...
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And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
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#8 | |
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#9 | |
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As we witnessed the events unfold via the internet, it became apparent in the Great Lakes area, the split within churches and among churches was: A. The ground being LSM B. The ground being Titus' ministry C. The ground being Christ |
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#10 | |
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#11 |
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Taking the ground is a fiction. Plain and simple. It is built upon a fiction that being Christ-believers and followers is not enough. That somehow the city must be claimed for Christ (and the church). As if a city will ever be for Christ.
More important than the number of Christians in a city, or the correctness of the doctrines they hold to is the testimony of their lives before the rest of the citizens. God is not looking for the right doctrines or stance in a city. He is looking for people who will testify of Him by bearing his image in their lives. But the LCM is all about meetings and lexicons and doctrines and dirt. They are more interested in thinking that God finally has a lampstand in a large city of millions when they "take the ground" no matter how many Christians have been meeting there for years, even centuries. A recent example was when they claimed to have had the first Lord's table in Rome in centuries. Yeah. Right.
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#12 | |
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I don't recall Nee or Lee covering this point? Funny how carefully they looked for anything to support their formulations, then with conflicting points they either waved them away or studiously avoided them. Seems to me like they avoided the idea multiple ekklesia in Rome. At least Paul didn't call them "District 2" and "Meeting Hall #3". He just called it what it was. The church that met in so-and-so's house.
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#13 | |
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#14 | |
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As for whether the church in Rome was something different from the house church mentioned, that is debatable on several levels. It could be that the reference to the chruch in Rome is a generic greeting to all the Christians there, but the fact that the letter was delivered to certain persons gave Paul cause to request that they specifically say something to some of the others for him. In one sense the church is not limited by assemblies. In another the assembly is the church. But if you are not concerned with the distinction, then it isn't even a point of equivocation. It is only for those who want to make the two instances into one and declare that they own the patent to the correct "church" that it is suddenly important.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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#15 | |
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THE DEFINITIVE GUIDE for taking the ground, the doctrine of locality, and the practical oneness among LC's was Nee's book The Normal Christian Church Life. Compare what we have today with what Nee states. It's almost comical. Not to say that his teaching here was scriptural, but neither did Nee nor Lee ever adhere to their own teaching. "Taking the ground" was merely a guise to attract seekers.
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#16 | |
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![]() ![]() I really had no idea that things were so convoluted in Toronto. I don't even think these brothers have any idea how far they have strayed from the Nee/Lee view of the local church. If the Nee/Lee model was bad, then how much more what they are doing now. |
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#17 | |
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In April 2007 a group of believers affiliated with Living Stream Ministry (LSM) separated themselves from the Church in Toronto and began meeting independently in a nearby RAMADA hotel. In Fermentation, there was the same criticism on those who separated from the Church in Anaheim and began meeting independently in a hotel. |
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#18 | |
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#19 | ||
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Here's the rationale, as I get it: Nee was the seer of God's revelation for the present age. So if Nee saw the so-called ground of the church, this was God's speaking to us today, God's present oracle. And how, pray tell, do we know that Nee was the seer of the divine revelation? Because he gave us the truth! There's only one church per city! Everybody knows that! It's so obvious... don't be dense, folks -- get with the program! Both statements, that Nee was the seer of divine revelation, and that what he saw was God's uncovered truth for the present age, depend on assumptions that shouldn't be questioned. Don't be negative, right? The whole thing, at its root, seems to be little more than a personality cult. Don't question the Boss. The Apostle is always right. God has spoken to us through His present oracle. That seems to be the foundation of the whole enterprise. If one critically cross-examines the idea itself, on its own terms, it begins to lose credibility and motive force; instead, one has to simply take it on faith, that it's actually a revelation from God. This is how religions start, and religious movements, for that matter. Brother or Sister So-and-so is God's revealed Person of the Hour. "Then God raised up So-and-so, and the light of truth shone upon us all, and rescued us from the darkness of the present evil age." Sound familiar?
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#20 |
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What's the point of defining what is a church and what isn't, at anything but the most general level, other than to point out who isn't a church and to give them the thumbs-down?
![]() The church is an assembly, right? So suppose two Christians meet together in a home and call themselves a church. What purpose would it serve to tell that assembly that, no, you are not a church? Where's the overall benefit? I see none; and I see a lot of downside. The fact is the Bible doesn't define clearly what exactly is a church and what isn't. We know it has certain characteristics, but we don't know enough to state unequivocally that the two Christians meeting in a home are not a church. Those who say they do are kidding themselves. We probably can say that one person meeting alone isn't a church, because one person isn't an assembly. But beyond that, if you are meeting in the Lord's name and you call yourself a church, I don't see how anyone has ground (pun intended) to disagree. All Nee and Lee and the LCM's disagreement brought on was division, confusion, arrogance, isolation, weirdness, inbreeding, abuse and eventually irrelevance. Bad fruit. |
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#21 | |
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But God forbid that a handful of other Christians do the same thing. And if you say it was blessed, then you must be deceived. What Nee was allowed to do, no one else was permitted to do. Look at today's situation. LSM has effectively outlawed hundreds of existing LC's in the GLA and Brazil for not being under their controls. God made up special rules for his young MOTA? ![]() As a brilliant young Chinese Christian, Nee developed an exclusive system which proved to all (supposedly) that only he was right, and that all foreign missionaries and denominations were wrong. How very convenient. There is no possible way that such honor -- like being today's Apostle Paul -- could be handled by such a proud young man.
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#22 | |
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At least, that's what our "Apostle" told us, and since he's the Apostle he must be right. If we do it, it's the church, and if someone else does it, then it's a free group or a denomination, neither of which is blessed by God's favor.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#23 | |
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To paraphrase Winston Churchill on the Battle of Britain, "Rarely has so much been given by so many, for so long, for so little."
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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#24 | |
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For Lee to assault the rebirth and salvation of thousands of new believers simply looking for living fellowship with like-minded children of God in their homes is one of the most disgusting messages I have ever read. Could that not be considered as the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? How in the world can a preacher de-legitimize the salvation experience of thousands, per millions, of new believers by publicly declaring them to be illegitimate and incestuous? Read that message. I would post some of Lee's quotes again, but I no longer have those LS messages anymore.
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#25 |
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No one's allowed to question it. Remember how emotional WL got when TAS challenged the ground? Anyone asking questions, or making comments, gets emotional responses. Don't make the apostle angry.
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#26 | |
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Like I said, it has nothing to do with oneness. It's all about control. |
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#27 | |
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#28 | |
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Compare Paul's attitude, a real apostle, while serving the church, "how I was with you all the time, serving the Lord as a slave with all humility and tears and trials ..."
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#29 | |
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Also a verse to consider: For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, Titus 1:7 |
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#30 |
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Just wanted to share that Lord’s Recovery has new target city’s and college campuses for this year. The list as follows:
Target Cities: Columbus, OH Virginia Beach, VA Nashville, TN Campuses: Columbus, OH Columbia, SC St. Louis, MO Tampa, FL The following universities and colleges campuses are the targets for their deception: Ohio State University. University of South Carolina. Washington University & Missouri University. University of South Florida. Please pray that the Lord protects youngsters and new freshmen that are starting school this week. Info from: https://gtca.us/ |
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#31 | |
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Nell |
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