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Old 07-29-2016, 02:53 PM   #501
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Default Re: MERGED THREAD: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

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The word life without a qualifying adjective...like Christ's life, God's life, my dog's life, etc. can be misleading and possibly used by satan (or any other nefarious being/person) to indicate any intuitive feeling that one receives from any source. I wonder if this is a safe practice for Christians? Do the church fathers have any comments on this topic?
Think about an environment where heightened subjectivity meets a system of error, and where that might lead you. Far from safety.
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Old 07-29-2016, 03:40 PM   #502
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Ohio,

That caricature of RK speaking about how he feels bad inside is just too good.

The sad part about it is that this is exactly what the rank and file are taught to think about things that make them feel bad or uneasy inside. It is supposed to make them reject the source that makes them feel that way rather than the thing (the error) that is the actual problem.
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Old 07-29-2016, 04:21 PM   #503
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Tree of Life?! These people could use a little knowledge of good and evil!
That's right, how about some basic education on the difference.
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Old 07-29-2016, 04:35 PM   #504
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The sad part about it is that this is exactly what the rank and file are taught to think about things that make them feel bad or uneasy inside. It is supposed to make them reject the source that makes them feel that way rather than the thing (the error) that is the actual problem.
The Blendeds actually decide for their members how to "feel" about many things, thus robbing them of the real liberty of the spirit, and ruining the conscience of many. Think about those recent lawsuits in Ohio and Toronto, ON. Would those brothers and sisters, left to themselves and their loving Head, dream about suing each other over meeting halls, furniture, bank accounts, and their nameless "name?" No, of course not, but with LSM's special "trainings" held nearby, these saints now "feel life and peace" while suing their brothers and sisters. Obviously the many scriptures of the N.T., screaming out thru their collective conscience, can't overcome the "peace within" guaranteed by headquarters in Anaheim.
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Old 07-29-2016, 04:54 PM   #505
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I used to find it hard to believe that any of the blendeds would have looked up to Philip Lee. I assumed that if anything, he was tolerated for the sake of WL, a past issue that they would be glad to sweep under the rug.

Quite to the contrary, an Anaheim elder, Philip Lin, expressed a great appreciation for Philip Lee. It makes me want to gag:
Our brother Lin claims to have written his book under the anointing, guidance and constraint of the Holy Spirit. Our brother Lee also claims to have been before the Lord before writing his slanderous book; Fermentation Of The Present Rebellion. I personally would be under great tembling and fear of ever dragging the Spirit Of TRUTH into an endless pit of self-serving LIES. They may speak about High Truth, but they do not practice the Truth
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Old 07-29-2016, 07:16 PM   #506
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Our brother Lin claims to have written his book under the anointing, guidance and constraint of the Holy Spirit. Our brother Lee also claims to have been before the Lord before writing his slanderous book; Fermentation Of The Present Rebellion. I personally would be under great tembling and fear of ever dragging the Spirit Of TRUTH into an endless pit of self-serving LIES. They may speak about High Truth, but they do not practice the Truth
A lot of what Lee did could have been 'fixed' a long time ago by a simple admission on his part that he had made a mistake or had a large lapse in judgement. Did he do that? Nope. He instead proceeded to put a spin on so many things.

It's not my place to judge anyone for their mistakes. But what I do know is that the Spirit of TRUTH does not lead people to LIE or engage in deception. Lies stem from only one source. That source is the father of lies, the devil himself. That is serious, and as Christians we don't want anything to do with such blatant deception.
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Old 07-29-2016, 07:18 PM   #507
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Think about those recent lawsuits in Ohio and Toronto, ON. Would those brothers and sisters, left to themselves and their loving Head, dream about suing each other over meeting halls, furniture, bank accounts, and their nameless "name?" No, of course not, but with LSM's special "trainings" held nearby, these saints now "feel life and peace" while suing their brothers and sisters.
Think about the 2011 lawsuit Indiana had against RK and SR. It's sure okay to sue Harvest House and in the last decade GLA localities, but when one of their own blendeds has his name mentioned in a defamation lawsuit, oh the brothers can't have that.
The hypocrisy is reeking in Puget Sound region LC's The brothers would rather remain silent than to be truthful.
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Old 07-31-2016, 07:20 AM   #508
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Think about the 2011 lawsuit Indiana had against RK and SR. It's sure okay to sue Harvest House and in the last decade GLA localities, but when one of their own blendeds has his name mentioned in a defamation lawsuit, oh the brothers can't have that.
The hypocrisy is reeking in Puget Sound region LC's The brothers would rather remain silent than to be truthful.
How was the RK lawsuit resolved?
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Old 07-31-2016, 08:12 AM   #509
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A lot of what Lee did could have been 'fixed' a long time ago by a simple admission on his part that he had made a mistake or had a large lapse in judgement. Did he do that? Nope. He instead proceeded to put a spin on so many things.
It makes me think of the difference between Saul and David.
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Old 07-31-2016, 09:55 PM   #510
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Our brother Lin claims to have written his book under the anointing, guidance and constraint of the Holy Spirit. Our brother Lee also claims to have been before the Lord before writing his slanderous book; Fermentation Of The Present Rebellion. I personally would be under great trembling and fear of ever dragging the Spirit Of TRUTH into an endless pit of self-serving LIES. They may speak about High Truth, but they do not practice the Truth


Concerning the lawsuit, it was a longtime Local Church brother who advised me to get an attorney. This was after 10 years of brothers' misrepresenting me, and the truth in my writings. I had no thought like this previously but entertained the idea of filing a lawsuit myself and I decided to go ahead. I had one objective in mind: to get them to take me and my writings seriously and come into fellowship over them . After 4 months I basically let them go and the judge officially ended it when I did not press further. I saw enough and they had opportunity enough to come out of the legal realm and face me in meaningful dialogue and fellowship, which they had no mind to do and still do not.

The following is from the last part of a letter to another brother who had once been close to me.

Steve Isitt

After a thorough examination of our church history and appealing to leaders regarding my findings, I found that our leadership is not interested in accounting for past mistakes; but have chosen instead to condemn me for what I have found and brought forward for fellowship.



Lawsuit

url]http://www.twoturmoils.com/COMPLAINTFeb24.pdf[/url]

I wrote this in 2010 - the lawsuit was in 2011
When doing a search on my name, Steve Isitt, recently (2010), immediately one very positive document appeared toward the top, My Experience in the Local Churches; and one negative one appeared at the very top, Ron Kangas’ public word from Ecuador declaring to leaders in South America that I was a “man of death” and “one of the most evil speakers on the internet”. I called his home to discuss this public speaking with him and I left a message for him to give me a call. There was no return call.

I then wrote him a letter expressing my desire to speak with him and waited for his response. None came. I had heard also about the public speaking of another leader who referred to me as a “wolf among lambs” (SR from Bellevue in a conf in New Zealand), and also that I was “the embodiment of the accuser of the brethren”. This same leader over a ten-year period had been telling saints in Bellevue in groups or one on one conversations that I had “slanderous” websites up on the internet and forum posts that “slander” several leaders in the churches.

In July 2010, when he spoke these things to a church member, Jerry Mueckl, I received an email from Jerry denouncing me and my websites. I then shared this email with a Local Church brother, who advised me to get an attorney, since he knew the ten-year history of Local Church leaders’ resistance to the truth in my writings and the unwillingness they had to come to a table of fellowship. He also knew of the propensity among leaders and saints toward “condemnation before investigation”, as exemplified in Jerry Mueckl’s email.


Jerry Mueckl

"I asked Sherman about you and your history in the church in this area. I was appalled to find out that you have not only written one book (which I knew about but never read), but also that you maintain two websites full of slander regarding the Lord’s Recovery, and specifically regarding at least eight coworkers and several elders.

Hearing about evidence such as a nearly two inch stack of emails that you wrote regarding Joel Kennon, and the fact that you maintain much contact with ones who oppose the Lord’s Recovery such as John Ingalls, leaves me no alternative but to discontinue my contact with you.

Regardless of what new ones you want to introduce to me, there is no way I can have fellowship with you. Your behavior is divisive, and you have not shown any willingness to repent. If you reply that these facts are not true, then I’ll only believe that after you’ve taken down your slanderous web sites and come face to face with Sherman and Joel and the other elders in Seattle and Bellevue and retract the materials you have written.

You told me that you want to be allowed to fellowship with the church in Bellevue, yet your actions tell another story. I have given the Lord and His Recovery thirty seven years of my life, and there is no other life I desire to live. Don’t bother sending me any more emails. I’m just going to delete them anyways. "
Jerry Mueckl

Jerry admitted that he had not read much of my writings before sending me that email. When we again met – sovereignly - four months later, I confronted him about his email. He had read some of my material and within minutes offered an apology to me for his rush to judgment in his email, and said, “I don’t know; I just don’t know”. That is true. Without thorough investigation, no one, including the leaders know.

(Tony Chee and Jerry Mueckl were the two brothers at the 50th birthday gathering, Dec 2010.)



Still your brother in Christ,
Steve Isitt June 16, 2013
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Old 08-01-2016, 05:45 AM   #511
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A lot of what Lee did could have been 'fixed' a long time ago by a simple admission on his part that he had made a mistake or had a large lapse in judgement.
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It makes me think of the difference between Saul and David.
David saw the light before he murdered Nathan, and made things worse. But like Saul, WL and his Blendeds piled mistake upon mistake. The reason for this is that WL built a system predicated upon infallibility, and to admit mistake might cut the underpinnings of the whole enterprise. Admitting one lapse in judgement would lead to questioning other decisions, and then the whole thing might have no validity whatsoever! Terrible! Unthinkable!

This can not only be seen in morality, where unethical behavior got waved off with, "We don't care about right and wrong", but even in scriptural interpretation leading to a kind of "system of error", per Eph 4:14 (see RecV; esp fn 5). The Ascended Master's (AM) interpretation of the Bible must be held as infallible, and wherever the Bible seemed at variance with the AM's High Peak Teachings, then the Bible itself had to be of little account.

Consider that David was a sinner: he murdered Uriah, numbered Israel in his pride, etc. Therefore when he wrote "God rescued me because He delighted in me" then according to the AM this is false. No, WL said, David rescued himself (no consideration that the text might point to the promised Son of David, the coming Messiah, as NT usage suggests).

Yet the AM can't ever be seen to have had any lapse of judgment, or his entire teaching corpus might be questioned; instead of being the sole mediator between God and man, the Seer of the Divine Revelation, and God's Present Oracle, WL would be another Christian with thoughts and opinions. Sometimes insightful, sometimes maybe not so much. Can't have that!! What would happen to book sales and conference attendance?
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Old 08-01-2016, 07:34 AM   #512
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David saw the light before he murdered Nathan, and made things worse. But like Saul, WL and his Blendeds piled mistake upon mistake. The reason for this is that WL built a system predicated upon infallibility, and to admit mistake might cut the underpinnings of the whole enterprise. Admitting one lapse in judgement would lead to questioning other decisions, and then the whole thing might have no validity whatsoever! Terrible! Unthinkable!
Did David murder Nathan?
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Old 08-01-2016, 08:42 AM   #513
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Did David murder Nathan?
Maybe I didn't word it clearly. What I meant was, "Instead of compounding his sin with Bathsheba and Uriah by murdering the accusing Nathan, David did not; instead he saw the light and repented." But my terse wording may have opened the door to understanding the opposite.
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Old 08-01-2016, 09:33 AM   #514
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Maybe I didn't word it clearly. What I meant was, "Instead of compounding his sin with Bathsheba and Uriah by murdering the accusing Nathan, David did not; instead he saw the light and repented." But my terse wording may have opened the door to understanding the opposite.
You made some very good points. In his outrage, King David was ready to pull the trigger again, and he would have done so, either to Nathan (who, I'm sure, was scared for his own life) or the antagonist in Nathan's fable. (II Samuel 11.1-9)

To say that "David saw the light and repented," was a very kind characterization of the King.
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Old 08-01-2016, 06:45 PM   #515
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How was the RK lawsuit resolved?
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/sho...=51777&page=20

Interesting points from different posts of the above link....

POST 286
"I was aware of mediation and expected to go into it at some point, having read extensively on what to expect in the process. When I saw the way their lawyer, a brother in the church, handled my Complaint in his response to the judge, I was surprised and also disappointed. It seemed to me that he didn't care whether he was telling the truth or not. He was "doing his job" to free his client. I didn't want to incur much more of this.

I honestly felt, or hoped for, a higher level of communication from him and also meaningful dialogue and fellowship from the "defendants", outside the path of litigation. Then have some sort of help through informal mediation, perhaps with the CRI people, Fuller, the 70 scholars. Open, honest, meaningful dialogue and sweet fellowship, as they experienced with CRI and Fuller.

Too much to expect? It shouldn't be.

I had subjected this lawyer brother, James Kuan, to lie if he felt he had to, and this brother I love as one who took care of my two sons as a young people's leader during difficult times for me during the turmoil in the late eighties. Now, my son, Kenan, was helping me somewhat vs James. But he did not feel to sign on as my attorney, for a few good reasons.

Two lawyers, raised in the church, now placed in this situation! My son told me I needed to get a defamation attorney, that it would take to long for him to get up to speed, but as time went on I began to feel more and more that my statement has been made. The brothers know I have something "against them". Now it is up to them to respond, or not. While others look on, such as Jose Rivera.

Jose has done what the brothers have never done. He actually recorded in print what he feels and provided excerpts for the readers' consideration, and mine. Thank you Jose. I respect you for telling me and others specifically what your problem with me is. I do hope you and your wife have not been stumbled by me, as I also have noted many times on the forum that the Local Churches have a positive side also that I appreciate.

If your wife, as a Federal court employee, would like to share with me her feeling about my use or misuse of the Federal Court system, I encourage her to post a private message through you since you are now a member. I would like to get her perspective.

The case was dismissed since the judge had no jurisdiction over Sherman since he had not yet moved out of state, and he was already dismissed. And, the other defendant never showed, so he was not considered to be a defendant since he technically did not receive his summons properly. And, I didn't feel to press the matter. I was at peace. Four months is enough time to make my point.

Jose is right that the case is dismissed with prejudice which means I cannot file this case again. Fine. My statement was made, and many brothers have heard it. This was my objective.
"

POST 294
"When I was in the FTTT, a LSM run training, every trainee was required to bring a copy of "The Experience of Life" which we then used as part of our study. In this book it makes it clear that if you are aware that a brother has anything against you, that you should drop whatever it is you are doing, even if it is a sacrifice to the Lord and first go and be reconciled with your brother. This is what the LSM requires every trainee to learn. And yet, here is RK, one of the leaders in the LSM thumbing his nose at this word from the Lord. This is why the Lord told us to do what they say, but don't do what they do. "
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Old 08-04-2016, 05:56 AM   #516
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Hello Larry [Wilde], I did meet you in Spokane and knew you moved to Anaheim.

My experience Sunday is the catalyst to my letter in attachment.

I was told by you brothers that I need to check with Seattle who I had contacted twice in July, but got no response from them. Receiving no response from Bellevue either, or Anaheim, I have this letter (attached) to post today. Hearing the words once again, "you are not welcome here" and that I am to check with Seattle, has spawned this letter below.

If you are interested in counseling me a bit, you are welcome any time. But I am compelled now within to speak as I have done in the attached letter. I am interested in the truth. And, addressing the truth has been something of a life supply to me for 15 years.

You are the first one I am sending this letter to. It is true that if I am in the church life I would be fully taken up with ministering Christ and caring for others for the building up of the Body in love. I understand the saints and appreciate them. No need to talk there as I do outside the church environment where there is much need, encouraging understanding of our actual history and also repentances from LC leadership, and doing this unto the building up of the Body in love also.

Either direction is good. At 69 years old, I just think it is better that I would be in the church life, positively, than to address serious discrepancies in our church testimony, negatively - I have done this work already, and for many years now I meet where I can and where I am welcome, and that is everywhere, but in the place that raised me.

Praise the Lord, Larry! I did enjoy my 10 minutes in the meeting, and got to sit by Jan who had helped bring me into the church in 1971.

Larry Wilde is an elder in Bellevue, formerly lived in Spokane, then Anaheim where his brother, Chris of LSM Radio resides.

www.lordsrecovery.us/JudgmentofAnaheim.pdf
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Old 08-04-2016, 01:52 PM   #517
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As of today I'm picking Indiana up on my prayer list. After reading post 516 it would relieve me greatly to know you had after many years had the grace from our Lord to leave that wicked place be. It is no different whatsoever from the RCC and if the Lord has chosen to leave the RCC alone for 1700 years He can do the same for the LC and I think likely will.

I notice we came into the LC just one year apart, you in 71 and I in 72. My wife died in 07 and I started keeping a diary of sorts. I just recently noticed an entry in 09 mentioning th at my experience of the LC was quite unreal. Not a good comment. It took me 4 more years before I walked out. I still have two children and 5 grand children in the thing. I have no power over them except to pray. I don't think a christian sect of 50 plus years can be touched by man. I never heard of one being touched.

My opinion is worth little but, James I think it was said that a fountain can not issue both bitter and sweet water. I don't believe you agree but the bitterness coming out of WL and later the Blendeds makes it look impossible for there to be any sweetness. You're around 69, I around 86, we need to forget LC forever and ipray for our loved ones.
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:03 PM   #518
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James said that a fountain can not issue both bitter and sweet water.
I don't get any bitterness coming from Indiana. That's the good thing. The Blendeds and their cheerleaders unfortunately can be quite uncharitable toward those with whom they disagree; they learned well from WL.

Myself I suppose I'm too often the proverbial bitter ex-member, but thankfully people here are usually willing to call me on it, and I'm willing to repent.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:27 PM   #519
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As of today I'm picking Indiana up on my prayer list. After reading post 516 it would relieve me greatly to know you had after many years had the grace from our Lord to leave that wicked place be. It is no different whatsoever from the RCC and if the Lord has chosen to leave the RCC alone for 1700 years He can do the same for the LC and I think likely will.

I notice we came into the LC just one year apart, you in 71 and I in 72. My wife died in 07 and I started keeping a diary of sorts. I just recently noticed an entry in 09 mentioning th at my experience of the LC was quite unreal. Not a good comment. It took me 4 more years before I walked out. I still have two children and 5 grand children in the thing. I have no power over them except to pray. I don't think a christian sect of 50 plus years can be touched by man. I never heard of one being touched.

My opinion is worth little but, James I think it was said that a fountain can not issue both bitter and sweet water. I don't believe you agree but the bitterness coming out of WL and later the Blendeds makes it look impossible for there to be any sweetness. You're around 69, I around 86, we need to forget LC forever and ipray for our loved ones.
Lisbon
Lisbon, You cant believe that in the ten minutes I was in the Table meeting, I got more refreshed than in any meeting I have been in elsewhere. The song was one of the many I appreciated greatly and began singing the moment I entered. (A hymn by WL)

As I told the 4 brothers who escorted me out, I have no problem with the positive aspects of the Local Churches, but "THERE ARE SERIOUS MATTERS THAT I ADDRESS AND THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED". It seemed to me the brother next to me, sort of behind me, substantiated what I said, he being the one from Anaheim. And the one next to him seemed to agree, but I can't be sure of either one and they left to return to the meeting.

Here is the thing, Lisbon, and others who have wondered about me, I see the potential for revival and have considered this from the beginning words of my writing, Aug 2, 2000 16 years ago. There is too much invested in so many innocent saints in the churches around the world.

Lisbon, I went to a Catholic mass before going into the Bellevue mtg hall! It was dreadfully wanting for water and refreshment in the Spirit and intermingling. They had refreshments but no connecting. I was so surprised at the emptiness though the building was beautiful and inviting with a fountain as you enter, but the fountain of living waters was down the street and the saints have aged, and they were fewer in number, but they have been trained and raised up to know their spirit and get to that fountain that never runs dry.

The brothers were very kind this time to me and perhaps they read my previous 2 letters and links sent in July, but could not wait for this mtg to end and had to come back and interrupt my sweet short talk with that sister who long ago drew me thru that Christ in her smile and her directive for me to move into the brother's house. I did so due to wanting to be with these people who were focused on Christ alone. There was no call to be in one accord with another center than Christ, the Christ who is our life and our hope of glory. I had also visited the Pres church next door to the the meeting hall. Another beautiful building in wealthy Bellevue.

Many of the saints I normally meet with were in Vancouver B. C. for a conference with Stephen Kaung (101 years old). He is in Seattle now and might speak once or twice before leaving for home Richmond. Many of the saints I normally meet with were in Vancouver B. C. for a conference with Stephen Kaung (101 years old). He is in Seattle now and might speak once or twice before leaving for home in Richmond.

I hope the two groups who both come from Watchman Nee's ministry would come together and be benefited from each other. BOTH would be greatly benefited. But the LC brothers would never part from their ministry which precludes the idea of merging as one and confirms their standing as a ministry church.... But the opportunity is there.
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Old 08-04-2016, 04:52 PM   #520
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As of today I'm picking Indiana up on my prayer list. After reading post 516 it would relieve me greatly to know you had after many years had the grace from our Lord to leave that wicked place be. It is no different whatsoever from the RCC and if the Lord has chosen to leave the RCC alone for 1700 years He can do the same for the LC and I think likely will.

I notice we came into the LC just one year apart, you in 71 and I in 72. My wife died in 07 and I started keeping a diary of sorts. I just recently noticed an entry in 09 mentioning th at my experience of the LC was quite unreal. Not a good comment. It took me 4 more years before I walked out. I still have two children and 5 grand children in the thing. I have no power over them except to pray. I don't think a christian sect of 50 plus years can be touched by man. I never heard of one being touched.

My opinion is worth little but, James I think it was said that a fountain can not issue both bitter and sweet water. I don't believe you agree but the bitterness coming out of WL and later the Blendeds makes it look impossible for there to be any sweetness. You're around 69, I around 86, we need to forget LC forever and ipray for our loved ones.
Lisbon
I understand what you are saying. I was there for 30 years, and left almost 11 years ago.

I also believe that each of us have the liberty to continue as the peace of God leads us. I still post comments here, but Indiana has chosen another route. I also left the Catholic church after growing up in that system.

I wonder what the prophets of God thought when Jehovah (Yahweh) kept sending them back to Israel with a fresh word from the throne. I'm sure they thought it was a waste of time, and not only that, it was quite dangerous since Israel had killed all the other prophets before them. But God never gave up, and eventually He sent His Son to Israel thinking that surely they will honor Him and listen to His words.
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Old 08-04-2016, 04:54 PM   #521
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Lisbon, You cant believe that in the ten minutes I was in the Table meeting, I got more refreshed than in any meeting I have been in elsewhere. The song was one of the many I appreciated greatly and began singing the moment I entered.

As I told the 4 brothers who escorted me out ...
Where's a good YouTube when you need one!?!

I'd love to have seen that scene.
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Old 08-04-2016, 09:45 PM   #522
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......but the fountain of living waters was down the street and the saints have aged, and they were fewer in number, but they have been trained and raised up to know their spirit and get to that fountain that never runs dry.
This is what I have heard from other saints, why they are so loyal through thick and thin. I also agree with Lisbon in that a true ministry cannot gush out both bitterness and sweetness. Thus even though the LSM ministry is rotten, some of its saints will keep the true Spirit. Isn't it similar to the 7 churches in Revelations where the Lord was calling for the overcomers from each church? Yes, even the RCC has its share of overcomers, putting all of the ministry doctrines to shame.

My morning reading in Galations 1 reminded me of this ongoing tussle by Indiana with the LSM ministry. Gal 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Paul saw this perversion of the gospel as so serious, that he gave them a double curse. It was not another gospel they were preaching, but they were twisting the same gospel to suit their own purposes. This describes the LSM ministry, which circumvents the gospel from the glory of God to the glory of Witness Lee and to the elimination of the work of the Holy Spirit in interpreting the Word as needed for each saint.
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:44 AM   #523
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Here is the thing, Lisbon, and others who have wondered about me, I see the potential for revival .... the opportunity is there.
When Stephen died it didn't look like there was much potential, or opportunity there, in Saul of Tarsus, who was standing by and holding the cloaks of the executioners. Hardened he was, as Yoda would put it. And it got worse before it got better - "But Saul began destroying the church", per Acts 8:3. Etc.

"But when it pleased God . . " (Gal 1:15)
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Old 08-05-2016, 10:49 AM   #524
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I don't get any bitterness coming from Indiana.
And I don't think Lisbon was talking about Indiana.

But I think you knew that.
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Old 08-05-2016, 12:40 PM   #525
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Looks like Nee and Lee might have got it wrong about the tree of life.

The same words are used in Proverbs 3:18 to represent wisdom.
18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her, and happy is every one that holdest her fast.

It's used in Proverbs 11:30 as a fruit of the righteous.
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that is wise winneth souls.

And in Proverbs 13:12 as like having desire fulfilled.
12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick; but desire fulfilled is a tree of life.

And Proverbs 15:4 as how good or helpful is good speech.
A soothing tongue is a tree of life; but perverseness therein is a wound to the spirit.

I'll get to the NT next, but it does not look like the tree of life is a principle or command to behave/function by intuition or whatever it is that the blendeds say you touch in your spirit. The word life without a qualifying adjective...like Christ's life, God's life, my dog's life, etc. can be misleading and possibly used by satan (or any other nefarious being/person) to indicate any intuitive feeling that one receives from any source. I wonder if this is a safe practice for Christians? Do the church fathers have any comments on this topic?
Seems the Recovery's orientation of the Tree of Life is all askew. It's not about what the Word says, but about LSM. If LSM is portrayed positively it's on the Tree of Life. If it portrays LSM negatively, it's on the Tree of Knowledge.
Several examples, afaithfulword.org, it's on the Tree of Life. CRI's We Were Wrong, it's on the Tree of Life.
Conversely anything written by Nigel Tomes, Steve Isitt, John Ingalls etc is on the Tree of Knowledge.
Tree of Life=positive for LSM
Tree of Knowledge=negative for LSM
Notice scripture isn't even a factor by this logic.
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Old 08-05-2016, 02:16 PM   #526
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And I don't think Lisbon was talking about Indiana.

But I think you knew that.
I did know that, and should have thrown in a qualifier so that it was clear.

But I wanted to make the point that, remarkably, for the amount of writing Indiana's done, he's largely (or even wholly) resisted the possiblity of taking gratuitous swipes.

I myself enjoy writing, and do so largely for therapeutic reasons. But I suspect that I enjoy writing too much sometimes, and that perhaps my enjoyment is at others' expense. There are some models of Christian reticence and decorum on LCD, and I recognize and appreciate that. (even if I do a poor job of imitating).
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Old 08-05-2016, 05:10 PM   #527
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Lisbon, You cant believe that in the ten minutes I was in the Table meeting, I got more refreshed than in any meeting I have been in elsewhere. The song was one of the many I appreciated greatly and began singing the moment I entered. (A hymn by WL)
Indiana, I wonder if have you considered how much of that feeling is based on culture. There are many things I miss about the LC--and many of those things are spiritual. Almost no kind of Christian meeting is satisfying to me these days (note that I say "Christian meeting," and not "Christian fellowship"). I believe there are many spiritual lessons that Christians can learn from other Christians in the LC.

However, whenever I do have these kinds of feelings (positive or negative) as you describe above, I have to ask myself--how much of that reaction is cultural on my part. Because no matter how much they would deny it, the LC is a thick culture.

Quote:
As I told the 4 brothers who escorted me out, I have no problem with the positive aspects of the Local Churches, but "THERE ARE SERIOUS MATTERS THAT I ADDRESS AND THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED". It seemed to me the brother next to me, sort of behind me, substantiated what I said, he being the one from Anaheim. And the one next to him seemed to agree, but I can't be sure of either one and they left to return to the meeting.
I appreciate your determination. I really do. But do you feel this kind of effort will ever make any difference? I believe it cannot. The leader of the whole thing determined that those very same "serious matters" of concern to you should never be addressed, and I believe his edict was prophetic--at least in the context of the system. Many know of those issues, but they simply don't care. They have long buried them. To my mind, it is almost impossible to properly evaluate the issues you raise and stay within that system. I myself knew of the history for years, but I put all of it aside (with all manner of rationalizations) until finally, for whatever reason, the scales fell off my eyes. And when that happened, I just could not stay. The two things, to me, are mutually exclusive.

Also, may I ask--what is the purpose in visiting this kind of meeting? Do you feel comfortable there? To be honest with you, it seems sad. What is the point of it? To cause a disruption? It sounds like you are wandering--from Kaung's group to the Catholic Church, to the Presbyterian Church, to the LC. Find fulfillment in God! The whole outward scene of Christianity is such a mess. It is not meant to fulfill us!

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Here is the thing, Lisbon, and others who have wondered about me, I see the potential for revival and have considered this from the beginning words of my writing, Aug 2, 2000 16 years ago. There is too much invested in so many innocent saints in the churches around the world.
Such a revival within the LC simply will not happen. The LC has become a religious system just like any other religious system. With each passing year, it becomes more and more organized, more and more distinct in its religious culture, and more and more set in its ways. There is just as much "invested" in so many other "innocent saints in the churches around the world" outside of the context of the LC. You visited a Catholic church--why does the Lord not bring revival there? Why does the LC need to be God's special thing (why does God even need to have a special thing?)? Whatever the "thing" is, the "ism," the Lord's attitude is the same--"come out!" (and "coming out is a heart-matter).

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Lisbon, I went to a Catholic mass before going into the Bellevue mtg hall! It was dreadfully wanting for water and refreshment in the Spirit and intermingling. They had refreshments but no connecting. I was so surprised at the emptiness though the building was beautiful and inviting with a fountain as you enter, but the fountain of living waters was down the street and the saints have aged, and they were fewer in number, but they have been trained and raised up to know their spirit and get to that fountain that never runs dry.
What is "the fountain of living waters"? What is the "fountain that never runs dry"? You equate it with the LC or with something particular to the LC. But read the truth:

"For My people have committed a double evil:
They have abandoned Me,
the fountain of living water,
and dug cisterns for themselves,
cracked cisterns that cannot hold water" (Jeremiah 2:13).

The fountain of living waters is GOD HIMSELF. It is not the LC, or something particular to the LC. To be caught in that mindset is just to "dig out a cracked cistern." No matter how "spiritual" or "refreshing" the cistern appears--that's what it is. The fountain is GOD, and God did not pour Himself into the container of the LC.

Quote:
The brothers were very kind this time to me and perhaps they read my previous 2 letters and links sent in July, but could not wait for this mtg to end and had to come back and interrupt my sweet short talk with that sister who long ago drew me thru that Christ in her smile and her directive for me to move into the brother's house. I did so due to wanting to be with these people who were focused on Christ alone. There was no call to be in one accord with another center than Christ, the Christ who is our life and our hope of glory. I had also visited the Pres church next door to the the meeting hall. Another beautiful building in wealthy Bellevue.
Brother Indiana, those "kind" LC brothers felt the need (four of them) to escort you out! They will not even let you sit there!

Quote:
Many of the saints I normally meet with were in Vancouver B. C. for a conference with Stephen Kaung (101 years old). He is in Seattle now and might speak once or twice before leaving for home Richmond. Many of the saints I normally meet with were in Vancouver B. C. for a conference with Stephen Kaung (101 years old). He is in Seattle now and might speak once or twice before leaving for home in Richmond.

I hope the two groups who both come from Watchman Nee's ministry would come together and be benefited from each other. BOTH would be greatly benefited. But the LC brothers would never part from their ministry which precludes the idea of merging as one and confirms their standing as a ministry church.... But the opportunity is there.
Brother Indiana, I daresay that will never happen--not in this age. I am certain that both sides, no matter how charitable or "open," are just as set in their ways. I am fully convinced that we will only all be truly united once our walk on earth is over and we rest in eternity in the presence of the Lord. And in that day we will wonder (if we even bother to be preoccupied with it)--why we spent so much time dwelling on all of these things in the first place. God is bigger than the LC or the Little Flock, or WN, or SK, or WL. Don't miss the forest for the trees. God is vast and transcendent, and the Body of Christ is vast too.

"And may His glory fill the whole earth. Amen and amen" (Psalm 72:19).
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Old 08-05-2016, 11:41 PM   #528
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Dear Brother
I wonder if this refreshing you experienced would have occurred if you had visited some other locality that you were less familiar with. Seeing old friends and remembering the "good old days" brings its own euphoria. The Lord is able to be your peace and joy regardless of where you are. Quite frankly, a genuine peace that comes from the Lord is never dependent upon our environment. Rejoice always! The Lord is rich unto all who sincerely call upon Him. Don't short-change yourself, and especially do not limit the Lord. Times of refreshing come from His presence - In or out of the LC.
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Old 08-07-2016, 01:31 AM   #529
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Brothers, I did not go to the mass expecting much at all and was not seeking a place to meet. I went that I might get more familiar with what Catholics do at mass to know how to relate to a Catholic friend of mine. I had gone there in the summer of 2010 twice and more times than that to each of these groups - Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses and 7th Day Adventists, which were all interesting and beneficial experiences. (I saw that they were all human beings, and like me, persecuted human beings - they for their reasons and me for mine - and I wanted to see for myself what they were like individually and what the meetings were like, and to see how much their church culture was similar to ours, and how much "oneness" or ground could be obtained with them to my comfort. Had to check for myself instead of writing them completely off as I had been doing for three decades automatically, in my superior church culture, which was declining before my eyes by traumatic encounters (10 such) with leaders, men who manifested no human or spiritual capacity to receive me as a fellow human being or brother in Christ, when presented with my sincere appeal to them in In the Wake of the New Way. I was soon out the door. So partly I was seeking human beings in those "church environments" I visited, just to see what my impression would be of them. With the Mormons I met with "the high priests group" one morning, then with a large group later that day to help move a mother and her daughter from their apartment. There might have been 50 people there, many standing and talking, as things were going smoothly and happily; and I said to the 20 year-old daughter, "you are so fortunate, look how many came to help your mother! Moving can be a very trying time". Later, when I was leaving, she came over and gave me a hug. I was so surprised. She was appreciative. We had made a Mormon girl and her mother happy that day.)

Neither did I go to the Presbyterian meeting last Sunday seeking a different place to meet, I had been in a Bible study there for 9 mos in 2006 and I know people there and basically - with my people at a conf up in Vancouver, I was actually a bit adrift that day and then drifted over to the Bellevue meeting also, as the doors were wide open, and no usher to turn me away (and people were standing and I could easily take a seat and have brief conversation with the sister who happened to be seated, not standing. I told her I was doing well and that the brothers don't understand that I am actually for the churches. She couldnt believe I had been away 15 years. When people were sitting back down the brothers began to head over my way; she gasped, a little alarmed, and I smiled and said they are coming for me, it is okay, I will write you a letter (she and her husb lived in Anaheim during the turmoil) and, YES, I wanted to stir the pot a bit, brother, to see what we had with them in 2016. What we have is elders continuing to cut me off without explaining themselves to me or to the churches why they do this, but who also seemed softened and subdued. But we also continue to have a central control going on from Anaheim to regulate the churches, letting churches know this one or that one is bad and brothers obey the, but robotically.

Brothers, if the Catholics had life I would testify of it. There was none.

If the Presb had an atmosphere of life I would have stayed.

But I have testified of what I did experience that day, a sweetness of Christ as life that spread to me immediately in the church in Bellevue. If enough saints know how to get to the throne, life can be transmitted into a meeting place. A leader at SCA and other leaders of the associated assemblies know their lack - the teachings prevail, but not life, not joy, and where I meet the brother is determined that every week he will ask the congregation about their exercise before the Lord that morning so that they can bring life to the meeting and the service in the church. If it takes 1 year three years, he wants to see more life and more joy, and so do I. But we all appreciate what measure we do have at SCA. I do, and the leaders do, and we love these saints. But there is so much more, and those in the Local Churches have to see what many on the forum have brought to public attention for many years. The Lord will bless or not bless what we say - as for me I just go with the anointing to speak the things I do that resonate in my being. And it takes much exercise to get to the Lord and go down deep for an hour or so in the morning before sharing those things that resonate. I agree with you, brother, we really need to get to that fountain and I have been very exercised to do so in recent weeks especially, and generally, for a very long time.
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Old 08-07-2016, 05:01 PM   #530
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When Stephen died it didn't look like there was much potential, or opportunity there, in Saul of Tarsus, who was standing by and holding the cloaks of the executioners. Hardened he was, as Yoda would put it. And it got worse before it got better - "But Saul began destroying the church", per Acts 8:3. Etc.

"But when it pleased God . . " (Gal 1:15)
In the last 2000 years has there ever been a revival. Did the seven churches revive. Remember "all they in Asia have deserted me." I assume this was before John but sort of the same time frame.
I was a member of the AOG for around 40 years. AOG was begun in 1914. They just recently celebrated 100 years. I went to their first "Bible Schools" in Sprigfield, MO when I was 20 years, just a kid. But even as a kid I knew there was something wanting, cold, and dry. My sister, wife of an AOG came to one of our LC meetings around 40 years ago and even though offended, said she didn't think the Lord was thru with the AOG. She knows I'm out of the LC and she readily agrees the AOG has real problems and as a real 'prophet' I can assure her they are not going to change. And as a store front prophet I would not predict the slow decline, but would bet a little money that the same will happen to the LC.

I had guests in my house this week end from the LC. I'm somewhat avoided. But there is some similarity between the LC and my old friends at AOG. They believe in speaking in tongues and the LC believes in WL For there to be revival there has to be repentance, and since the top brass doesn't believe in repentance, there can be no revival.

I confess I'm not anywhere close to being a prophet.
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Old 08-07-2016, 06:43 PM   #531
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Brother Indiana, those "kind" LC brothers felt the need (four of them) to escort you out! They will not even let you sit there!
This is part of the double standards that exist in LC culture. Take for instance Philip Lee and problems he caused localities and persons, the attitude among elders may be "that's ancient history". A sister (my aunt) once told me when asking about Philip Lee, why not "leave the past in the past"?
Same applies to someone like Indiana. If he wants to sit down and isn't creating a scene, "why not leave the past in the past"?
Unless however LC meetings aren't open to the public as they might claim to be. If that's the case LC meetings are just like a Costco. Membership has it's privileges.
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Old 08-13-2016, 03:09 PM   #532
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It starts off innocently enough, but by reading thru or scrolling down you see the points of real concern marked by the concerned brothers. which represents the the discernment of many others.

http://concernedbrothers.com/BP/Beliefs_English.pdf


OUR BELIEF
1. We believe that the Holy Bible is the complete divine revelation verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2. We believe that God is the only one Triune God-the Father, the Son, and the Spirit-co-existing equally
from eternity to eternity.
3. We believe that the Son of God, even God Himself, became incarnated to be a man by the name of Jesus,
born of the virgin Mary, that He might be our Redeemer and Savior.
4. We believe that Jesus, a genuine man, lived on this earth for thirty-three and a half years to make God
the Father known to men.
5. We believe that Jesus, the Christ anointed by God with His Holy Spirit, died on the cross for our sins and
shed His blood for the accomplishment of our redemption.
6. We believe that Jesus Christ, after being buried.....
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Old 08-14-2016, 08:12 PM   #533
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2. Who is your leader?
Our unique leader is Christ. We have no official, permanent, organized human leadership. Furthermore, there is no hierarchy of any kind and no worldwide leader. We regard no person as infallible, and we do not follow anyone blindly. On the contrary, we follow only those whose teaching and practice is in accordance with the truth of God's Word. Those who take the lead do not lord it over the saints, but rather shepherd them in love. Likewise, those who serve the Lord do not control the churches, but rather serve them as bondslaves of Christ in the ministry of the living Word.
This was absolutely not true when this booklet was published in 1978. There is MUCH evidence that this was not true in 1968 in America. There is a lot of evidence that this was not true in 1958 in Taiwan. By then, Witness Lee was already the undisputed, unchallenged "one minister with the one ministry for the age". Lee was already hiring and firing elders and co-workers on his personal whim. He was already selling meeting halls to cover his family business debts, and ripping off the saints in the process. He was already causing major division among the churches.

The simple truth is that there really was no such thing as "early Lee - later Lee". It was ALWAYS the same old Witness Lee. The facts speak for themselves. The "train of vanquished foes" speaks for itself. The condition of the religion he founded speaks for itself.

Could there be "a recovery of the Recovery", so desperately wished for by our dear brother Steve? Well, there would have had to have been a genuine recovery initiated and maintained by God to begin with. The institution we now know as The Local Church of Witness Lee has never been such a genuine recovery in my estimation. If there ever was such a recovery, I am certain that God would have never allowed such a man as Witness Lee to initiate it or maintain such a movement. Maybe there was, at one time, such a genuine move of the Lord in Mainland China during the early days of Watchman Nee. Even this has been called into serious question as certain aspects of Nee's life and ministry have come to light.

I know it seems that I have painted a pretty bleak picture. The good news is that God is the one in control of the picture...past, present and future. Actually it is his picture to paint. And it is always a masterpiece! And with this, I will leave you with a couple of familiar verses. "I will build my Church". (Matt 16:18) "He has made everything beautiful in its time." (Ecclesiastes 3:11) After all, it is HIS Church and HIS time, and let us worship and praise Him for these two glorious facts.


-
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Old 08-15-2016, 07:50 AM   #534
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Ron Kangas should rewrite his song to say:

"Precious Lord, my flask of alabaster
Gladly now I break in love for Lee....."
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Old 08-15-2016, 08:11 AM   #535
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"And while at that I promise to, Lord,
Break every one who does not fully agree..."
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:27 AM   #536
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The simple truth is that there really was no such thing as "early Lee - later Lee". It was ALWAYS the same old Witness Lee. The facts speak for themselves. The "train of vanquished foes" speaks for itself. The condition of the religion he founded speaks for itself.
Since our beloved moderator and I have had this lively and ongoing discussion concerning whether my observation of "early Lee - later Lee" is valid, I had to perk up and take note. "Yo .. Ohio ... somebody just called you out!" Not succumbing to that temptation, I let it go.

Then out of the blue I happened to read a blog by Hope this morning, which apparently I had never read before. Hope's views, as a former leader insider, have been extremely influential on my own understanding of Witness Lee, the LSM, and other leaders from the LCM. (I greatly appreciate those historians who are able to address both the good and the bad of people and events.) I am re-posting it to help explain my reasoning for the "early Lee - later Lee" assessment of the LCM in the USA.


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I had listed this post under regional concerns, down south but felt it should be on its own thread.

Hello to those currently participating on the “forum.”

Due to many personal issues and my feelings about some who were posting here, I have been away. Recently I felt that perhaps the Lord desired that I begin to read the current series of posts. The most recent series seems to me to be of much more potential value than those 4-6 months ago.

I felt to stop my ongoing history on the forum as the format of an incomplete work being target practice for certain malcontents did not seem profitable for what I believed the Lord desired.

My hope was that my experience could be an aid for others seeking to know the Lord’s will in their lives regarding participation in the LSM etc and could serve as help to any who had been discouraged by their experience there. In addition, I thought that the posters were predominately seekers of truth and that perhaps we all could come to a more accurate understanding of the Way of God, Acts 18:26.

One glaring fallacy among the posters is to assume the worst possible motives and conduct among those who had some leadership and the best motives regarding former members. I personally know or know of the most vitriolic posters. In the early years, we endured quite a collection of saints. Unless you were there and participating in seeking to help the many problem people, you cannot understand the endurance, mercy, and compassion needed to shepherd some among us and also some among the would be leaders. I believe it will help this discussion to focus a little on the problems which came with the territory in the early days.

Some came into the church and were attracted by the attention they could demand. Giving “testimonies” was an excellent opportunity to talk about ME, ME, ME. Some could go on for weeks, months and years constantly drawing attention to themselves depending on how much they could couch the self-glorifying in spiritual terms and church lingo. Eventually, when out of exhaustion on the part of an elder or elders or compulsion of the Spirit or stacked up complaints from the saints or all of the above, the dear one was confronted about their self- obsession. It almost never went well. THEY WERE HURT! THEY HAD BEEN WOUNDED! Then we all suffered a time of retribution, complaints and getting even. Some on the forum are still suffering from me-itus.

Because of the apparent loose oversight and low key roll many of the elders took, wandering stars would appear. These were folks who saw themselves as spiritually gifted but in need of an audience or group to shepherd where they could practice their wonderful gifts. When they were not given the leading role they saw for themselves, it was surely those controlling elders who stood in their way. They only wanted to help the saints but were shunt aside by the awful elders.

Similar to the above was a group of men I have labeled “disappointed office seekers.” After a period of time, they assumed they would be recognized by WL or BP or some local elders and invited to share in the leadership. (President Garfield was assassinated by a disappointed office seeker. After that event, the civil service examine process was instituted.) This person is so easy to recognize because his remarks always, always, always center on belittling any local church elder or leader.

Then we had the confrontational fault finder. Some elders fell into this category. (Mike, one was in Dallas.) They always had an issue with someone or some church. Usually the other elders would try to ignore them hoping they would get better. Eventually they would get frustrated and withdraw from the church or from the leadership or move somewhere else.

A final group I will mention was the “we are free”, “we can do whatever we want,” “we are not religious,” “we are not under any law.” These folks disrupted many a meeting and offended many of the saints. Eventually when the saints and the leadership could stand no more they were adjusted. My, my, often they howled like a stuck pig. Some on this forum are still howling.

To take the testimony of some of the problem folks and overlay their accusations on WL, BP, RG, MR etc is so unfair. Many of the errors and mistakes made by the local churches were due to the challenge brought on by the “come one come all” approach with very little organization and deliberately weak leadership.

WL had been too authoritarian in the Far East. He told me so directly to my face and I heard him mention it many times. One of his hopes for the trip of 141 in 1967 to Taiwan was to demonstrate to the churches there the lack of control and freedom of the Spirit. Actually pray-reading and calling on the Lord, were originally stumbled on as a way to level the playing field. Anyone could pray read and anyone could call on the Name of the Lord.

The change that occurred in 1974 was not just due to the ambition of WL and MR. (Yes they were ambitious.) But they were searching for a way to provide direction for what often seemed to be some poorly managed congregations often without a clear rudder. The above mentioned problem people were too many. MR was especially running out of patience and ready to institute tighter controls.

BP, RG who I knew intimately, served, and served and served. They both had a weakness of being a little like Popeye the sailor man. Popeye would endure Brutus and endure and endure until finally he declared “I have stood all I can stand, I can’t stands no more.” Then after a little spinach, the house is destroyed as he explodes and deals with Brutus. This happened a few times in Texas. They could have handled some of the problem folks in a better way. But would you say that poor ole Brutus was just an innocent victim? Please note dear reader, you never hear the other side of the story from some of the vitriolic posters.

WL had two bad children. So did Aaron. So did Eli. David had more than two. Solomon’s son caused the kingdom to be divided. Do bad children mean your service was false? The Bible does tell us the details of these families but to illustrate that there is no such thing as Spiritual succession. There is no such thing as apostolic succession. This would be for another discussion of God’s Administration.

Unfortunately there was a very real change over time and the change was not for the better. Unfortunately there were some serious flaws in the practice and attitudes. There was some wrong understanding of the truth and practice unveiled in the New Testament. And there were some problem people who hurt others then and continue to damage and distract those seeking to press on the know the Lord.

In Christ Jesus,

Hope
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Old 08-16-2016, 09:48 AM   #537
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I believe Hope was illustrating and Ohio was agreeing that leading a church or movement of churches is a tough task. Real troublemakers can cause real damage. I've never argued with the LCM leadership's right to maintain order and protect their flock. The Bible says that leaders have the right and even the obligation to do that.

Although one can make the case that LCM leadership was/is overbearing and abusive in their attempts to maintain order--and I think that case has been shown to be a good one--that, as regrettable as it is, is not really the central problem with the group. After all, leaders do have the right to maintain order and protect their flock. One can disagree about the extent to which such oversight is appropriate, but the right of oversight does exist.

The problem with the LCM was not that they sought to protect their turf. The problem was that they expected everyone, and indoctrinated everyone they could, to believe that their turf was the only turf. So they not only tried to control the impact members had on their group, they tried to control the very lives of those people as well, to the point of filling them with a fear of leaving the group. This was and is completely inexcusable.

That is the central sin of the LCM. It is the sin of Witness Lee, Benson Phillips and every other leader, or for that matter run-of-the-mill member, who ever pushed it.

Protect the turf God has assigned to you all you want. Just don't tell others it has to be their turf as well. That is not anyone's purview. And no rightful desire to protect one's flock excuses it.
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Old 08-16-2016, 10:45 AM   #538
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So they not only tried to control the impact members had on their group, they tried to control the very lives of those people as well, to the point of filling them with a fear of leaving the group. This was and is completely inexcusable.

That is the central sin of the LCM. It is the sin of Witness Lee, Benson Phillips and every other leader, or for that matter run-of-the-mill member, who ever pushed it.
That's right. I've never posted an event where LC leaders properly protected the church under their purview. As a matter of fact, nearly every LC quarantine involved headquarters violating that proper jurisdiction assigned by the Head of the body. The system has promoted a policy of abuse, turning beloved brothers into bullies, or else assisting the real shepherds to the exits.

Those rigidly attached to headquarters (which in my case was both Aneheim and Cleveland) are especially pernicious, thinking they have some God-given mandate to "play god" with the children of God
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Old 08-16-2016, 11:03 AM   #539
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My dear brother Ohio,
I'm sure you've heard the humorous, but poignant, adage: You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts. (Daniel Moynihan) You are indeed entitled to your own opinion, as am I, as is Don Rutledge. Though I'm loath to quote politicians, I'm going to do it twice in the same post: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." (President John Adams)

Unfortunately, you seem to have accidentally on purpose ignored a very important part of my post:
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in my estimation
This is just a fancy way of saying "in my opinion". For better or for worse, however, my opinions are at least partially informed by certain historical facts, facts that can no longer be washed away or mitigated by my wishes, inclinations or passions. (although they were for decades) I am not, REPEAT NOT, implying that you, Don or anyone else, are attempting to wash away or mitigate certain historical facts, or are simply guided by your own wishes, inclinations or passions. I am simply posting my opinion regarding the life, times and history of Witness Lee and the Local Church movement. Sorry to disappoint you, but I wasn't "calling you out". I was actually addressing some things that Steve has posted on this thread.

Look, it seems to me, the heart of this "Early Lee - Later Lee" matter can be boiled down to this: Witness Lee was just like any human being who has ever lived (save One) There was some good, some bad, and some in between. According to the Bible, this is also true for every person who has dared to take the lead among God's people. If we can at lest agree on this, then I think we can settle on agreeing to disagree on whether the good outweighs the bad, or that the bad outweighs the good, etc, etc.

If you want, you can just forget most of what I posted, and just keep the last part, the most important part -
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The good news is that God is the one in control of the picture...past, present and future. Actually it is his picture to paint. And it is always a masterpiece!
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Old 08-16-2016, 12:44 PM   #540
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There is a lot to be said about the difficulties that leaders face, but that's another subject altogether. With any group, there will always be troublemakers and difficult cases. Even if a group is relatively free of those types, toes will still get stepped on, people will still get offended by leaders. There is a certain inevitability to that. But I wouldn't take any of that to mean always giving leaders the benefit of the doubt. Especially in the LC, there has been the tendency to give leaders the free pass, with the "everyone makes mistakes mindset." Maybe that is appropriate in certain situations, but it also quickly leads to leaders who aren't held accountable.

As far as I'm concerned, the LC has always had a leadership problem, and at the most basic level the problem is that there are lots of ineffective leaders. As it turns out, that is not just coincidence. It is one of the side effects of WL's elder-appointing game. I'm not out to judge anyone for their inexperience or unsuitability as leaders, but at the same time, every single LC leader is someone who has made the decision to function as a leader. When the opportunity presented itself, they were the ones who stepped up to the plate. So there is thus an assumed individual responsibility for their either successful or failed leadership.

I can say somewhat confidently that one of the things that was particularly frustrating about the LC was having to follow ineffective leaders. As it turns out, ineffectiveness is merely the surface of the issue, and at worse, an 'unassuming' style of leadership has been a front for behind the scenes manipulation and control. I have encountered LC leaders who are overtly authoritarian (these types are less common). The other type would hardly be identifiable as elders, but they have the ability to rule with an iron fist behind the scenes. What is problematic is you can't tell what's actually going on unless you are really familiar with who these leaders are.

This is the reason that I have such trouble viewing LC leaders from a neutral perspective. When it comes to LC leaders, things aren't as they seem. It's true some have no ill motives or intentions, but there are also a lot of manipulative leaders who take on the same appearance of being genuine, unassuming people with no hidden motives.

It is particularly problematic for rank and file members because when they are adversely affected by leaders, because there is little means for recourse or defense. They can't point at elder A and tell the other elders what he's done. Elder A is so 'unassuming' that the charge seems absurd. Thus it's the members who get labeled as troublemakers. Obviously, Lee liked to give the impression that he didn't control anyone, that he wasn't authoritarian, but things always played out just the opposite. Those who accused Lee of control were accused of speaking blatant lies. LC leaders discovered how to play the game, and there are some who know how to play it really well. Many have yet to be caught.
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:09 PM   #541
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I understand both the "early Lee — Later Lee" thought and the "nothing changes" thought. And from a purely analytical analysis of any particular time in the history of the LCM, including its predecessors in Taiwan and China, things are seen as being both good and bad. Sometimes more of one and sometimes more of the other.

But from the other perspective, there is an undercurrent that seemed to have affected Nee before he was the leader of anything. And over time it came to a place that he became the MOTA, just not using those terms, and never insisting on it directly. And by that time Lee had become #2 because he had brought Nee back to the forefront.

Then Lee went to Taiwan and we see the first visible evidence of his desire for personal profit even at the expense of his flock. At the same time we see his desire to cast aside anyone who might appear to be a contemporary with sound teaching (thinking of TAS here). He financially raped the church in Taipei and had to leave, then came here where he talked in such humble terms as DR has reflected in the post repeated earlier.

And the LCM began as more of an independent group following a (the?) successor to Nee (who was a known factor). But Lee kept his distance for a while. He did go back and retake his place in Taiwan, but we didn't see that.

Then came Daystar. And the poor saints "lost their virginity" (to the sounds of his laughter). Then the thrusting of Max all over the U.S. followed by his ouster and the sudden need for Lee to be our leader. It only got worse from there.

I accept that on the surface there was an early Lee and a later Lee. But in hindsight it seems too likely that it was just surface. The makeup of a mime.

And I accept that there was a wonderful time of camaraderie among the members in the early days that affected everything from meetings to any other kind of fellowship. And that that special sense of things dwindled over time. And I accept that much of that was because God was in and among us.

But I do not believe that it was because God was among a (then) "right" version of the church that then lost something. It was not about the teachings of the LCM or Nee or Lee. It was about the breakout of a bunch of people from different forms that had become stifling to them. (Notice I did not say that those forms had simply become stifling. I do not believe that the forms, in themselves, are an issue. But for some any particular form may be a problem. And for others they are fully able to move forward with Christ in them.)

It is true that Eli had bad sons. And he ignored them until it was too late. And David had bad sons that almost took the kingdom from him and even tried to kill him. But that does not mean that there is no problem with Lee because he does not look much different that them. He does look different that them. David did not spend his pre-king time trying to figure out how to be king now. He did not gather forces with the goal of getting enough following to simply take over. He did defend his own life. But when someone (incorrectly) bragged that they had killed Saul, he ran them through because that was not to happen.

Paul and Barnabas had a falling out but both went on in ministry. (I ignore Lee's claim that Barnabas was wrong and simply disappeared.) But if Paul had been Lee, we would have been hearing about how we should never trust or listen to Barnabas again for ever and ever. That was pre-U.S. (for Lee) and therefore I have a problem with more than the surface of any kind of "early Lee."

Unless you think that maybe he started out back in the 1920s as a decent Christian with a heart to serve God. That would be the early Lee. The one who reconstituted the Shanghai church eldership to get Nee back in was already a form of later Lee (on the inside).

Do I think that he never had any kind of repentance along the way? It is possible. I would not say he did not. But he did seem to be wandering around trying to capture people with his "coworker of Nee" shtick from the time he hit the U.S. shores. Took more than a few weeks to take hold. But he was working on it. I think that a leader that needs to repent needs more than a change of scenery where no one knows your faults to simply start back in.

I'm not sure it ever happened.
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Old 08-16-2016, 03:44 PM   #542
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It is particularly problematic for rank and file members because when they are adversely affected by leaders, because there is little means for recourse or defense.
You make valid points about the LCM. But my point is that none of this labyrinthine analysis of warped and weak LCM leadership would even be necessary if there wasn't the underlying and enforcing belief by LCM members that they can't just up and leave the LCM when they have the first sense to. Do you think mainstream church members worry about this stuff? Of course they don't. They would just see the leaders are bad and the system is dysfunctional and say "See ya."

This is my point. It's the threat of it being categorically wrong to leave the LCM that makes all this analysis of their warped leadership even necessary. Normal people who know it's okay to leave the LCM wouldn't put up with the weirdos in leadership there any longer than a hare's breath. They'd just leave and find a place with better leaders. It's only us insecure, needy types that believed their line and let them control us.

The bottom line is that the LCM could never continue to exist as they do without threatening members not to leave. It's sick. And the sad fact is it's also co-dependent.

If the LCM didn't threaten members to not leave the members would just vote with their feet and go, and the group would wither and die. And discussions of "bad leadership" would be superfluous.
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Old 08-16-2016, 07:11 PM   #543
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I understand both the "early Lee — Later Lee" thought and the "nothing changes" thought. And from a purely analytical analysis of any particular time in the history of the LCM, including its predecessors in Taiwan and China, things are seen as being both good and bad. Sometimes more of one and sometimes more of the other.

But from the other perspective, there is an undercurrent that seemed to have affected Nee before he was the leader of anything. And over time it came to a place that he became the MOTA, just not using those terms, and never insisting on it directly. And by that time Lee had become #2 because he had brought Nee back to the forefront.

Then Lee went to Taiwan and we see the first visible evidence of his desire for personal profit even at the expense of his flock. At the same time we see his desire to cast aside anyone who might appear to be a contemporary with sound teaching (thinking of TAS here). He financially raped the church in Taipei and had to leave, then came here where he talked in such humble terms as DR has reflected in the post repeated earlier.

And the LCM began as more of an independent group following a (the?) successor to Nee (who was a known factor). But Lee kept his distance for a while. He did go back and retake his place in Taiwan, but we didn't see that.

Then came Daystar. And the poor saints "lost their virginity" (to the sounds of his laughter). Then the thrusting of Max all over the U.S. followed by his ouster and the sudden need for Lee to be our leader. It only got worse from there.

I accept that on the surface there was an early Lee and a later Lee. But in hindsight it seems too likely that it was just surface. The makeup of a mime.

And I accept that there was a wonderful time of camaraderie among the members in the early days that affected everything from meetings to any other kind of fellowship. And that that special sense of things dwindled over time. And I accept that much of that was because God was in and among us.

But I do not believe that it was because God was among a (then) "right" version of the church that then lost something. It was not about the teachings of the LCM or Nee or Lee. It was about the breakout of a bunch of people from different forms that had become stifling to them. (Notice I did not say that those forms had simply become stifling. I do not believe that the forms, in themselves, are an issue. But for some any particular form may be a problem. And for others they are fully able to move forward with Christ in them.)

It is true that Eli had bad sons. And he ignored them until it was too late. And David had bad sons that almost took the kingdom from him and even tried to kill him. But that does not mean that there is no problem with Lee because he does not look much different that them. He does look different that them. David did not spend his pre-king time trying to figure out how to be king now. He did not gather forces with the goal of getting enough following to simply take over. He did defend his own life. But when someone (incorrectly) bragged that they had killed Saul, he ran them through because that was not to happen.

Paul and Barnabas had a falling out but both went on in ministry. (I ignore Lee's claim that Barnabas was wrong and simply disappeared.) But if Paul had been Lee, we would have been hearing about how we should never trust or listen to Barnabas again for ever and ever. That was pre-U.S. (for Lee) and therefore I have a problem with more than the surface of any kind of "early Lee."

Unless you think that maybe he started out back in the 1920s as a decent Christian with a heart to serve God. That would be the early Lee. The one who reconstituted the Shanghai church eldership to get Nee back in was already a form of later Lee (on the inside).

Do I think that he never had any kind of repentance along the way? It is possible. I would not say he did not. But he did seem to be wandering around trying to capture people with his "coworker of Nee" shtick from the time he hit the U.S. shores. Took more than a few weeks to take hold. But he was working on it. I think that a leader that needs to repent needs more than a change of scenery where no one knows your faults to simply start back in.

I'm not sure it ever happened.
Good post OBW. Regarding the ongoing Early Lee/Later Lee opinions, it could be Don Rutledge, Don Hardy, and Samuel Chang were correct regarding early Lee. Yet UntoHim's opinion of Lee never changing is also correct. It was purely a matter of self-restraint and biting ones tongue until Daystar came. The unnamed brother whose inheritance was the beginning of Daystar; for a greedy man like Lee it was as a recovering alcoholic being offered alcohol. A temptation that brought Lee back to his old traits. I know some reading may take offense bringing up issues for someone already passed on. Apply that to any history class, there's always subject matter for ones who have passed on (Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, etc).
About Paul and Barnabas, what we know about Paul is from Acts and his epistles. What we know about Barnabas is from Acts. What appears to be a difference was Paul's imprisonment. Without being imprisoned, it seems rather dubious if Paul would have had time to write the epistles. It seems Barnabas is disregarded because he didn't write any epistles.
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Old 08-17-2016, 06:41 AM   #544
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It seems to me these are a good series of posts with views and counter-views of balance.

I had never read this post by Don Rutledge, and find this quote by him to be an important one based on what we have learned about WL's ways in Taiwan especially, but also in Shanghai.

"WL had been too authoritarian in the Far East. He told me so directly to my face and I heard him mention it many times." #536 HOPE

After all our time here on a forum we learn many things that formulate our opinion. And, we don't give a pass where official history has it wrong and congregations are deceived as a result and, leaders perhaps abused.

OHIO Quote: "I've never posted an event where LC leaders properly protected the church under their purview. As a matter of fact, nearly every LC quarantine involved headquarters violating that proper jurisdiction assigned by the Head of the body. The system has promoted a policy of abuse, turning beloved brothers into bullies, or else assisting the real shepherds to the exits.

"Those rigidly attached to headquarters (which in my case was both Anaheim and Cleveland) are especially pernicious, thinking they have some God-given mandate to "play god" with the children of God".
#538

www.twoturmoils.com/TaipeiHistory.pdf
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:26 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post

As far as I'm concerned, the LC has always had a leadership problem, and at the most basic level the problem is that there are lots of ineffective leaders. As it turns out, that is not just coincidence. It is one of the side effects of WL's elder-appointing game. I'm not out to judge anyone for their inexperience or unsuitability as leaders, but at the same time, every single LC leader is someone who has made the decision to function as a leader. When the opportunity presented itself, they were the ones who stepped up to the plate. So there is thus an assumed individual responsibility for their either successful or failed leadership.

I can say somewhat confidently that one of the things that was particularly frustrating about the LC was having to follow ineffective leaders. As it turns out, ineffectiveness is merely the surface of the issue, and at worse, an 'unassuming' style of leadership has been a front for behind the scenes manipulation and control. I have encountered LC leaders who are overtly authoritarian (these types are less common). The other type would hardly be identifiable as elders, but they have the ability to rule with an iron fist behind the scenes. What is problematic is you can't tell what's actually going on unless you are really familiar with who these leaders are.
Great points here.

As a longtime church deacon constantly implementing the elders' direction, I found it nearly impossible to work with those who could never make a decision and live with it. Oh sure, we could preach endless messages about learning to follow the Lord within, but when the decided (and prayed over) direction of the church could be instantly altered by some ten minute phone call from headquarters, then all those teachings become useless. There was frankly no pattern of spiritual leadership on the local level.

During the run up to the GLA quarantines, TC in Cleveland ordered one of his workers, escaping LSM's Chicago takeover, to come and takeover our place. The two existing elders, both of whom had migrated to start the church some 20 years earlier, were sideswiped to make room for TC's boy "elder." How discouraging is that? My feeble attempts at protecting the church were useless when the local leaders lined up behind him.

Thus the true character of the so-called "local" churches was openly manifested for me to finally see: franchisors in Anaheim and Cleveland manipulating pawns in their established franchises to gain advantage over their opponent. Why would these pawns cooperate? In the game of chess, if the pawns can advance to the other side, without first getting knocked off or captured, then they get to be anything they want. How good is that!?!
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:30 PM   #546
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For years now I have researched the history of Witness Lee's personal living and quite honestly I see him repeating the same mistakes decade after decade, with increasing consequences. Where was the "dispensing" in his own life? Where is the dispensing in the lives of his disciples? They are the same year after year. They just look older and harder and tell others how to live - like the Pharisees. They equate dispensing (if there is such a thing) with more knowledge. There is no early Lee or latter Lee - he was the same Lee his whole life, only older and more desperate
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

I would normally use a biblical passage to confirm NewManLiving here, but I think I'll just leave our readers with the results of his "research", and the little adage I have tagged along.

Obviously NewManLiving has some significant experience in the Local Church of Witness Lee. For better or for worse he has stated his case.
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Old 08-18-2016, 01:07 PM   #547
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"But one year later all of a sudden ___ received a phone call from Lee and Lee want him to go to the training center and withdraw a large sum of money and give the money to his son. But when ___ looked at the books at the training center there was only about 600,000 yankee dollars left at the training center. That was far short of the 2 million dollars demanded by Lee." Page 15 Taipei History

How do brothers explain that? As I have said before, it's as if Living Stream Ministry was Witness Lee's family business where as owner he could make draws as needed.

On the surface this office was the responsibility of Ingalls and Chang but in reality he sent 2 of his sons to manage the financials and office. One of his daughter in law handles all the books. The entire operation of this deac off was thoroughly in the dark. No one knew exactly what was going on. Looking at this personnel arrangement it was easy to see what was on Lee’s mind. But all the church members were very much simple minded. They did not suspect there was anything evil going on. Page 21

To answer my question, brothers were too trusting, too naïve, and too simple minded as Larry Chi said. They naturally thought money they give is for the Lord's work and not for someone's financial empire. After all could a brother whose speaking is so gifted be so corrupt? Is it no surprise there has never been transparency regarding LSM finances?
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Old 08-20-2016, 09:46 AM   #548
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"But one year later all of a sudden ___ received a phone call from Lee and Lee want him to go to the training center and withdraw a large sum of money and give the money to his son. But when ___ looked at the books at the training center there was only about 600,000 yankee dollars left at the training center. That was far short of the 2 million dollars demanded by Lee." Page 15 Taipei History

How do brothers explain that? As I have said before, it's as if Living Stream Ministry was Witness Lee's family business where as owner he could make draws as needed.

On the surface this office was the responsibility of Ingalls and Chang but in reality he sent 2 of his sons to manage the financials and office. One of his daughter in law handles all the books. The entire operation of this deac off was thoroughly in the dark. No one knew exactly what was going on. Looking at this personnel arrangement it was easy to see what was on Lee’s mind. But all the church members were very much simple minded. They did not suspect there was anything evil going on. Page 21

To answer my question, brothers were too trusting, too naïve, and too simple minded as Larry Chi said. They naturally thought money they give is for the Lord's work and not for someone's financial empire. After all could a brother whose speaking is so gifted be so corrupt? Is it no surprise there has never been transparency regarding LSM finances?
Can you reference the source of these quotes?
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Old 08-20-2016, 09:56 AM   #549
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Can you reference the source of these quotes?
Read the linked pdf in post #544. It's from pages 15 and 21 of the pdf.
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Old 09-23-2016, 08:23 AM   #550
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www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/LRLeaders.pdf

"Although there are good reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010
I had considered "parking" my websites and did so, except for two of them.
www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/LRLeaders.pdf

This site is changed, for past, present, and future saints - and for the whole world to hear.
www.lordsrecovery.us
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Old 09-24-2016, 02:28 PM   #551
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www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/LRLeaders.pdf

"Although there are proper reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010
I used to get really frustrated that TLR leading brothers didn't want to talk about anything they had done that I took issue with, even when I tried to have open, honest, mutual fellowship with them (they shut me down in the same way).

Then a fellow believer pointed out that I had tried to do everything within my power to follow scriptural reconciliation practice, and reminded me of the following verses:

Romans 12:17-19 (New American Standard Bible):

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

This really helped me to finally let go and move on with life in fellowship with Christians outside of TLR. I had done as much as depended upon me to be at peace, and they weren't open to it. Now it is up to the Lord to judge.
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Old 09-25-2016, 12:50 PM   #552
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I used to get really frustrated that TLR leading brothers didn't want to talk about anything they had done that I took issue with, even when I tried to have open, honest, mutual fellowship with them (they shut me down in the same way).

Then a fellow believer pointed out that I had tried to do everything within my power to follow scriptural reconciliation practice, and reminded me of the following verses:

Romans 12:17-19 (New American Standard Bible):

Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

This really helped me to finally let go and move on with life in fellowship with Christians outside of TLR. I had done as much as depended upon me to be at peace, and they weren't open to it. Now it is up to the Lord to judge.
Hi JJ, I want to be clear about what you mean by paying back evil for evil. Do you possibly mean that is what I have done over the years in addressing the words and conduct of certain brothers? Do you think that is what Jane and John were doing in their book? John Meyer did in his? Nigel in his writing, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, John So? I would say that in all these examples they were simply giving testimony before God and man of their experience and observation in their Local Church life. Without malice in their heart.

I think you agree, but that you came to a point, where I may be now, to turn things over to the Lord of all who knows our concerns, and theirs...

And, "If possible, so far as it depends on [us], be at peace with all men."
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Old 09-25-2016, 04:35 PM   #553
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Hi JJ, I want to be clear about what you mean by paying back evil for evil. Do you possibly mean that is what I have done over the years in addressing the words and conduct of certain brothers? Do you think that is what Jane and John were doing in their book? John Meyer did in his? Nigel in his writing, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, John So? I would say that in all these examples they were simply giving testimony before God and man of their experience and observation in their Local Church life. Without malice in their heart.

I think you agree, but that you came to a point, where I may be now, to turn things over to the Lord of all who knows our concerns, and theirs...

And, "If possible, so far as it depends on [us], be at peace with all men."
You are correct about why I cited that verse, Indiana. Asking brothers to review their actions or teachings in light of scripture is certainly not rendering evil.

Neither was I suggesting any course of action regarding your web sites or participation on this forum (your writings have helped many!) ... just a verse that helped me emotionally give the situation up to the Lord .
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Old 09-26-2016, 05:31 AM   #554
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Default Re: "When they focused on Christ they were one"

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Old 09-26-2016, 05:40 AM   #555
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You are correct about why I cited that verse, Indiana. Asking brothers to review their actions or teachings in light of scripture is certainly not rendering evil.

Neither was I suggesting any course of action regarding your web sites or participation on this forum (your writings have helped many!) ... just a verse that helped me emotionally give the situation up to the Lord .
http://www.lsmradio.com/audio/stm-mp3/acts/acts_37.mp3

This morning I listened to this 25 minute LSM radio tape on the book of Acts and the transfer from the Old Testament dispensation of the law to the New Testament age of grace; and then the transfer from Peter's ministry with the spread of the gospel as a "fisher of men", to Paul's ministry as a "chosen vessel", a container, for dispensing the riches of Christ into the believers for the building up of church, the Body of Christ.

So good! But we must consider more than the truth of the word of God, and look at the actuality also.


www.lordsrecovery.us


Before that short tape, I read about Witness Lee's problem he ran into with T. A. Sparks as they appreciated each others' view of Christ immensely but were not able to agree on the ground of the church. (Col. Life Study 16) When they focused on Christ they were one.


"My experience with Brother T. Austin-Sparks illustrates how persistently some avoid the church matter. At our invitation, he came to Taiwan in 1955. We had a wonderful time together as he ministered on Christ. He could clearly echo what we had seen about Christ. In 1957 he came to Taiwan a second time. On this visit he touched the church ground, the standing of the church, in a negative way. In 1958 I accepted his invitation to visit him in England. During the days we were together, we had many long conversations about the church. However, he could not change my mind, and I could not change his concept. He tried his best to avoid the subject of the church, but my concept was that we must labor for the building up of the churches. His intention was to convince us that we should give up the ground of the church. But I pointed out to him that it was impossible for us to have the church practically without the ground of the church. Brother Sparks tried to assure me that he was not opposed to the church. He went on to tell me that during the early years of his ministry, he was invited to speak in Edinburgh. When he spoke about Christ, the meeting hall was crowded, and the audience was responsive. But when he spoke about the church, the number of people decreased. This caused him to feel that it was not profitable for him to speak on the church.

I went on to ask Brother Sparks how we could practice the principles we both had seen concerning the Lord’s Body. He admitted that these principles could not be put into practice in the denominations. But he would not admit that they could be put into practice only on the proper ground of the church. Instead, he emphasized the fact that the church can be produced only by much prayer and through the Spirit. Then I said to him, “Do you think that so many churches on the island of Taiwan did not all come into existence by prayer and through the Spirit?” I asked him what a group of saints should do after they had prayed regarding the church. Still he would not admit that they should take the standing of the church on the ground of oneness. He simply said that they needed to be assured that any move they made was of the Spirit. This was the conclusion of our conversation about the church.

I tried my best to convince him concerning the church, and he tried his best to avoid the church. Eventually, neither of us would change our position."

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Old 12-11-2016, 12:14 PM   #556
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Default Re: Agape Leadership - Robt Chapman of the Brethren

Question asked of Watchman Nee in China 1947
“If a servant of the Lord from another Christian group gives us more or higher spiritual light, do we receive it?” Watchman Nee thought for a while and then said: “God did not give us all the light. If somebody gives us more light, we should be very glad to receive it!”
[/COLOR]

from an email correspondence - it was bcc'd to 99 recipients, some current and former leaders included.

Agape Leadership
http://www.amazon.com/Agape-Leadersh.../dp/0936083050
CLICK on the picture.

Of course brothers, we all know we are short, including me, that is for certain. I don't know anyone who has failed more than me. But we can be honest with ourselves and with one another concerning the oneness and the price our Lord paid "that they all may be one..."

You wondered, "How would the Local Church have been today had Witness Lee rather followed the lead of the Englishman [Robt Chapman] instead of his beloved Irishman? [Darby]"

Far different. We would not have wonderful ministry churches, as now prevail, rather than love that should prevail, according to WL's own word (below). When love PREVAILS all the members are included and built up that life could prevail also and a way be opened up into the hearts of new ones.

Our brother Witness Lee knew the great lack that "knowing all the mysteries" cannot replace. Darby came to realize this also - both of them at least as they approached the last lap in their ministry. Chapman, however, lived this way all through his Christian life, according to all accounts, including Darby's. He was known as the apostle of love among the Brethren and elsewhere.


Quotes from A Word of Love 1996

"From the beginning of brother Lee's ministry in the United States clear to the end of it, although we heard marvelous things, we heard comparatively little about love. Near the end of his ministry, however, he did speak more concerning the need for love among us. He said, "In the last few years, we have appreciated the Lord's showing us the high peak of the divine revelation. My concern is that although we may talk about the truths of the high peak, love is absent among us. If this is the case, we are puffed up, not built up. The Body builds up itself in love".

"He actually began to speak in this way starting in 1988 and, intermittently, to the end of his ministry, addressing the elders on a number of occasions more definitely about this need. He said, "according to my observance throughout the years, most of the co-workers have a human spirit of "power" but not love. We need a spirit of love to conquer the degradation of today's church…this is what the recovery needs." He also stated, "only love prevails" and that "love is the most excellent way". He said it is the way to be an elder or a co-worker, and that it is the way to handle the saints. He proclaimed that it is the way to do everything and to be anything in the church life."

"Many of you are good speakers, knowing the higher truths. The truths we hold are much higher than those in Christianity. However, we do not have fruit because we are lacking in the Father's loving and forgiving heart and the Son's shepherding and seeking spirit. We condemn and regulate others rather than shepherd and seek them. We are short of love and shepherding. These are the vital factors for us to bear fruit, that is, to gain people. I am very concerned for our full-time training. Do we train the young ones to gain people or to regulate people? We have to reconsider our ways, as Haggai said (1:5). Our way is not right; something is wrong."
(Used in In the Wake of the New Way, 2002)

I like the truth; and truth should prevail, as well as love, wherever believers assemble, for the building up and the oneness in the Body of Christ. Praise the Lord!

I don't know if you have considered the content of these websites recently, ______, but it is what I felt to put down in a spirit of fellowship for sharing publicly and individually to past and present local church members and to inquiring ones about the Local Churches.


www.lordsrecovery.us

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

Brother Indeed
http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/6363
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Old 12-12-2016, 04:06 PM   #557
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Default Re: Agape Leadership - Robt Chapman of the Brethren

I never knew Darby, Nee, nor Lee, but I heard about them for over forty years and never had the slightest feeling that any of them ever loved anyone except themselves. Of course I never heard any of them except Lee but he had a testimony. You followed him most carefully or you were kicked out. He could not suffer any criticism, opposition, and his closest minions were the same way. You cross Benson or Ray, you had to leave. I had no such realization about Ron Kangas.

Two items of truth badly missing in the LC are love and repentance. The whole New Testament began with John Baptist preaching repentance to everyone. This was almost entirely neglected in the LC to my realization. I heard some tapes in early 70's based on repentance from John's epistles. They were powerful speakings but do you know I never heard of them again.
I heard alot about the pure word of God in early 70's then not. Bait and switch. So to my realization there was never any repentance, pure word, love, humility, what else. I was taken in and have no one to blame but my self.
Some on this don't think there is much problem with much of Christianity but I'm not one of them. The real church went down hill by 70 AD or if you like CE, and there has been little change since. I stongly believe in God's sovereignty that caused Paul to write "know that all Asia has turned away from me" and then John confirmed it I suppose later with his speaking about the seven churches. And like Israel never lasted one hundred years without backsliding niether has the church of Christ.

I have just been involved with two sects, AOG and the LC. The AOG was organized in 1914 and by 1954, it was going south. My kinsmen wouldn't admit it 40 years ago, but they do today. I am confident there was something of the Lord there 75 years ago. I can't be that confident about the LC. My minister spoke Sunday about David from one of the Samuels and admited David was a flawed person but God still used him. Clearly he repented with much anguish over Uriah and had a life of trouble with Absalom and others. He demonstrated a strong desire for the Lord in writings that Lee doesn't care for. It would seem Lee has had as much problems as David with not one word of repentance and not caring for his so called flock.
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Old 12-13-2016, 10:42 PM   #558
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Default Re: Agape Leadership - Robt Chapman of the Brethren

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Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
We would not have wonderful ministry churches, as now prevail, rather than love that should prevail, according to WL's own word (below). When love PREVAILS all the members are included and built up that life could prevail also and a way be opened up into the hearts of new ones.

Our brother Witness Lee knew the great lack that "knowing all the mysteries" cannot replace. Darby came to realize this also - both of them at least as they approached the last lap in their ministry. Chapman, however, lived this way all through his Christian life, according to all accounts, including Darby's. He was known as the apostle of love among the Brethren and elsewhere.


Quotes from A Word of Love 1996

"From the beginning of brother Lee's ministry in the United States clear to the end of it, although we heard marvelous things, we heard comparatively little about love. Near the end of his ministry, however, he did speak more concerning the need for love among us. He said, "In the last few years, we have appreciated the Lord's showing us the high peak of the divine revelation. My concern is that although we may talk about the truths of the high peak, love is absent among us. If this is the case, we are puffed up, not built up. The Body builds up itself in love".

"He actually began to speak in this way starting in 1988 and, intermittently, to the end of his ministry, addressing the elders on a number of occasions more definitely about this need. He said, "according to my observance throughout the years, most of the co-workers have a human spirit of "power" but not love. We need a spirit of love to conquer the degradation of today's church…this is what the recovery needs." He also stated, "only love prevails" and that "love is the most excellent way". He said it is the way to be an elder or a co-worker, and that it is the way to handle the saints. He proclaimed that it is the way to do everything and to be anything in the church life."

"Many of you are good speakers, knowing the higher truths. The truths we hold are much higher than those in Christianity. However, we do not have fruit because we are lacking in the Father's loving and forgiving heart and the Son's shepherding and seeking spirit. We condemn and regulate others rather than shepherd and seek them. We are short of love and shepherding. These are the vital factors for us to bear fruit, that is, to gain people. I am very concerned for our full-time training. Do we train the young ones to gain people or to regulate people? We have to reconsider our ways, as Haggai said (1:5). Our way is not right; something is wrong."
(Used in In the Wake of the New Way, 2002)

I like the truth; and truth should prevail, as well as love, wherever believers assemble, for the building up and the oneness in the Body of Christ. Praise the Lord!
"The Ministry" of WL focused so long and hard on "life" as "the way to build up the church" that it missed the plain and simple words of Jesus and the apostles concerning love as the "the most excellent way". "Poor, poor Christianity" knew this all along. Ironic, and just like the Lord to humble the proud.

WN and WL's "submit to my authority" leadership example poisoned the waters, so real love could never flourish.

Also, I'm not sure our training of young people should focus on gaining people, rather gaining Christ, and being found in Him.
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Old 01-31-2017, 04:36 PM   #559
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Default Re:Dignifying Authority in God's Government

Nigel Tomes once shared that

"Scripture documents the successes and failures of God’s servants. Both tragedies and triumphs are faithfully recorded. The failures of Abraham, David and Solomon appear in sacred writ. Peter’s denials and Paul’s regression to Judaic vows are not concealed. However Christian groups are often reluctant to critically assess their own history. Too frequently reverence for their “founding fathers” leads them to view their past through rose-colored glasses and to portray an idealized picture to others. Successes are highlighted, while mistakes and missteps are covered over. Instead of history, this produces hagiography,1 “sanitized accounts,” which reassure the faithful but offer few lessons for the future. The Bible shows this is not God’s way. Over a decade has passed since Bro. Witness Lee finished his course. Shortly after his passing some visiting Great Lakes brothers were given a guided tour of Brother Lee’s home on Ball Road, Anaheim, CA. They were led into his private bedroom where dresser drawers were opened to display Brother Lee’s orderliness. This produced a lasting impression. It caused some to ask—Is Brother Lee’s home being turned into a shrine? Has the veneration process begun? In some quarters it seems so. Some suggest God blessed Brother Lee’s every action. Others endeavor to portray Bro. Lee’s final repentance as an apology for the churches’ mistakes, not his own personal missteps. It seems the Lord’s recovery is producing hagiography rather than history. Consequently important chapters in the recovery’s history have not been adequately addressed."



www.twoturmoils.com/DignifyingAuthority.pdf

Rev. Dr. Ka-Tong Lim Collin County Chinese Fellowship Church, Plano, Texas
“For the last several years, consciously or not, I have heard much positive and negative information regarding the private life of Brother Nee. As I cannot figure out if it is true or not, I am not brave enough to follow either side, but only to pray and ponder. When will this puzzle be solved? Only for the sake of the name of the Lord, and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, will Christians who know the facts be willing to step forward bravely and speak out of a sense of justice. It would be helpful for the children of God to solve this puzzle. There would be no more sadness, anger, weakness and tears, for we would receive comfort from the Lord. In case of a similar situation happening in the future, we would not be shocked, like a bolt from the blue.”
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Old 02-01-2017, 04:26 AM   #560
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Default Re: Dignifying Authority in God's Government

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Some suggest God blessed Brother Lee’s every action.
In my years of 24/7 total immersion in LC, I never once heard "Daystar" mentioned. Nor, sons Philip and Timothy Lee. Yet the shortcomings and failures of "Christianity" were ever before us, constantly reminding us of our utter dependence on the "ministry".

Thus we became both suspicious of anything outside the LC, and unable to critically examine our own thoughts and teachings. Myopic, introspective, subjective, and unbalanced; we wondered why others shied away from our zeal, and were contstantly trying to massage the "gospel" (our proseletyzing efforts) to make it palatable to prospective members.
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:01 AM   #561
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Default Re: Dignifying Authority in God's Government

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel Tomes
Shortly after his passing some visiting Great Lakes brothers were given a guided tour of Brother Lee’s home on Ball Road, Anaheim, CA. They were led into his private bedroom where dresser drawers were opened to display Brother Lee’s orderliness. This produced a lasting impression. It caused some to ask—Is Brother Lee’s home being turned into a shrine? Has the veneration process begun? In some quarters it seems so. Some suggest God blessed Brother Lee’s every action.
All he needs now is three miracles and he will be a true "Saint." (If he was American, all that would be required is two miracles, and one of those could be a card trick.)
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:06 PM   #562
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In my years of 24/7 total immersion in LC, I never once heard "Daystar" mentioned.
If it happens, takes place in a hushed tone in a corner somewhere. At least what I happened to overhear during a Friday night home meeting, that's how it transpired.
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:14 PM   #563
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In my years of 24/7 total immersion in LC, I never once heard "Daystar" mentioned. Nor, sons Philip and Timothy Lee. Yet the shortcomings and failures of "Christianity" were ever before us, constantly reminding us of our utter dependence on the "ministry".

Thus we became both suspicious of anything outside the LC, and unable to critically examine our own thoughts and teachings. Myopic, introspective, subjective, and unbalanced; we wondered why others shied away from our zeal, and were constantly trying to massage the "gospel" (our proseletyzing efforts) to make it palatable to prospective members.

ABRAHAM's Journey South

WL Radio transcript: "I don’t care how many blessings you have received, as long as you are not remaining in the fellowship with God, you are still in the flesh. Don’t have any trust in yourself. Yourself, myself, ourselves are altogether untrustworthy. We have to put our trust in the presence of the Lord, telling him “Lord, if you take Your presence away from me, I am just like a dog”. But, hallelujah, in your presence, I am a saint.” God’s presence to us means a lot.

"Now you can see in chapter 19 while Abraham was walking, bringing God on his way, and standing still in the presence of God. What a wonderful saint! Saint Abraham. Oh what a wonderful saint there. A giant saint there. One that could stand with God talking to God face to face as a friend to another. Can you believe that such a wonderful person right in the next chapter that he was just like a dog? Could you believe such a saint person after being in fellowship with God he could lie again at the sacrifice of his wife? This is…just …unbelievable! But he did it. By this we all have to realize that we need to remain in the fellowship with God. Our self is not our protection. Our protection is His presence."

http://lsmradio.org/audio/genesis.html #66 25 minutes

"Don’t have any trust in yourself. Yourself, myself, ourselves are altogether untrustworthy."

This radio broadcast is well-worth listening to, as Dick Taylor and Chris Wilde emphatically agree in their own testimony with WL's strong appeal to the saints to have no confidence in the flesh. Brother Lee pointed to himself, as if to say, "don't think I am an exception", and his voice broke, for an instant, with emotion. [He knew Watchman was not an exception either; rather, he was the prime example of a saint journeying southward]
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Old 02-06-2017, 02:07 PM   #564
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Default Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

While I realize that the flesh is mentioned much in scripture, I believe that the way that Lee talked about it was not consistent with what was intended and that it constituted a kind of duality or dichotomy that was more Gnostic than Christian. He and Nee spoke words like those in this radio broadcast, but the cure always seemed to turn out to be something formulaic, but unspecific, like being "in the spirit" or being part of "the church" (not meaning the body of Christ in general, but the Local Churches hearing the words of Witness Lee).

I think that Lee is too often given a pass because what is said sounds reasonable in a "spiritual" sense. But when there is a way to cure the flesh, it is too often exclusive in application in that it is only truly relevant to those who follow him. Not to others. So there is something wrong in the teaching as a whole no matter how real our "flesh" is.
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Old 02-08-2017, 01:03 PM   #565
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"Although there are legitimate reasons for open, honest, mutual fellowship with church leaders, the opportunity to meet with them is closed to me and to others. The concept in the leadership is that no one in the churches should make an issue of anything or care for right and wrong, which has worked well to keep church members uninformed and the truth suppressed. Thus, discussion of serious concerns keep going to an open forum." -2010
www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

Brother Lee soberly encouraged a blending core of brothers, in the last year of his life, to examine themselves, and their history of receiving believers. Has it been according to Christ alone?

Was Witness Lee's receiving of believers according to Christ alone?

My letter to the leaders that began this thread has never been answered by them. Now that letter is on a website called leadersofthelordsrecovery.us and includes reports of their history through a transparent lense.


Excerpt

"....There are many members, former or current, who hope leaders would give an honest evaluation of their past - and their present. Indeed, the aforementioned brothers of repute have also earned a reputation of another sort, warranting our sober attention as to why examination of Local Church leadership is called for and necessary, especially since this group of associated churches believe they are the true expression of the Body of Christ - whose leaders represent God and His government on the earth today."
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Old 02-08-2017, 02:30 PM   #566
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Default Re: Why Reviewing our past is necessary

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Brother Lee soberly encouraged a blending core of brothers, in the last year of his life, to examine themselves, and their history of receiving believers. Has it been according to Christ alone?
Are you serious?

These Blendeds have never "examined themselves" regarding receiving believers.

On the contrary, they have rejected all of Brazil and all of the Great Lakes Area.

It's obvious why they expelled Titus Chu. He would have gone to Anaheim and "drained the swamp."
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:32 PM   #567
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Default Re: Why Reviewing our past is necessary

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Are you serious?

These Blendeds have never "examined themselves" regarding receiving believers.

On the contrary, they have rejected all of Brazil and all of the Great Lakes Area.

It's obvious why they expelled Titus Chu. He would have gone to Anaheim and "drained the swamp."
I disagree Ohio. The blendeds have no problem in receiving.....conditionally that is. Certain brothers need to know in order to be received, they need to submit.
Indiana is right. Not just blendeds, but generally responsible brothers believe they are the "true expression of the Body of Christ - whose leaders represent God and His government on the earth today."

Because of this concept lies the attitude, submission is only in one direction. To them as brothers leading localities and leading the recovery. Also because of this concept representing God's government on earth, what humility they had as brothers has been replaced with pride.
How is this attitude any different than divine right of kings that existed with European monarchies over the centuries? In principle it's the same. They don't answer to man, only to God.
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:47 PM   #568
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I disagree Ohio. The blendeds have no problem in receiving.....conditionally that is. Certain brothers need to know in order to be received, they need to submit.
Expulsion, rejection, excommunication, shunning, disfellowshipping, and quarantining could all be defined as "conditional receiving."

Any exclusive group like the LC's can claim that they are inclusive, and that they are open to receive anyone, if ... with their fingers crossed behind their back ... these ones meet all of their written and unwritten conditions.

With Brazil and the GLA, notice that the mandatory "conditions" of acceptance changed over time, the primary requirement, of course, was to submit to LSM's ever changing "conditions" of acceptance.
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Old 02-10-2017, 12:45 PM   #569
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www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

My letter to the leaders that began this thread has never been answered by them. Now that letter is on a website called leadersofthelordsrecovery.us and includes reports of their history through a transparent lense.
Why can't they respond? If your website material is slanderous and misrepresenting, they could have it shut down with a lawsuit. I already know when you offered to visit DCP in person, they became conveniently unavailable. Perhaps they know you have done your homework and it's better not to contend.
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Old 04-27-2017, 05:22 PM   #570
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Seeing the Dignity of Authority in the Body

Galatians 2

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. 12 For before some came from James, he continually ate with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to shrink back and separate himself, fearing those of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away in their hypocrisy.14 But when I saw that they were not walking in a straightforward way in relation to the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all,....

http://www.twoturmoils.com/SeeingDig...yintheBody.pdf
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:31 PM   #571
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It is no coincidence I named my second son Nathan.

When it comes to the doctrine and practice of deputy authority, there is no place for the role of the prophet such as Nathan. Concerned brothers whether they be big potatoes or small potatoes within their function in the local churches, should they exercise their function as a prophet, the typical reaction is to "shoot the messenger". In principle it is not much different from 1 Kings chapter 18.

As Indiana linked to his post,

"To be sure, the Local Churches do have a record of colossal “missteps” and historic cover-ups unaccounted for in their leadership."

"In the kingdom of Witness Lee and the blending brothers there is no Nathan. http://lsmradio.org/audio/genesis.html pgm #43 Genesis
Dick Taylor: “If you in a sense are exercised to be blind to the mistakes of those who have authority among you - this is God’s government! - just exercise to be blind and keep enjoying Christ”… not that there isn’t any immorality or idol worship…"

Based on current practices, the prophet Nathan would have found himself quarantined for going against the deputy authority.
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Old 04-29-2017, 10:04 AM   #572
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Seeing the Dignity of Authority in the Body

Galatians 2

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face because he stood condemned. 12 For before some came from James, he continually ate with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to shrink back and separate himself, fearing those of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away in their hypocrisy.14 But when I saw that they were not walking in a straightforward way in relation to the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all,....


http://www.twoturmoils.com/SeeingDig...yintheBody.pdf
Thanks for continuing to sound the call to repentance among leaders of TLR, Indiana. It is interesting that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee made a doctrine of not "exposing" failures of leaders based on one Old Testament circumstance (Noah's drunkenness), when they preached not to do that (make a doctrine from one verse). Thankfully both Old and New Testaments show us better, healthier, and humble way for leaders to be confronted with their shortcomings vs truth, and move forward in repentance.

I prayed afresh for this to happen, for the sake of our brothers and sisters trapped in a system of error.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:30 PM   #573
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Default Re: What drove me to Write - Steve Isitt (Indiana)

This letter had gone out to elders in 2006 after many other much more-detailed attempts at communication had been made.


January 2006

To elders and saints:

EXCERPT

"My ordeal over the reaction of elders to my written materials began in January 2001 with Dan Towle; it is now reaching the five-year mark January 28, 2006. There should be a consummation at this time. The ordeal with Joel Kennon is reaching the ten-year mark January 23, 2006. What shall I do with the matters I have fully tried to convey and bring into fellowship? I will look to the Lord for the answer, and I also hope for brothers, fellow members of the Body, to respond in a spirit of fellowship to this current fellowship that I offer." (2006)

http://lordsrecovery.us/MyTestimonytoEldersJan06.pdf
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Old 05-31-2018, 10:25 PM   #574
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Default Re: What drove me to Write - Steve Isitt (Indiana)

Instead of responding favorably to Indiana, and reconciling to him, those at LSM decided to go ahead and quarantine Titus Chu.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:03 AM   #575
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Default Re: What drove me to Write - Steve Isitt (Indiana)

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I think if this had simply been a misunderstanding the situation would have been resolved long ago. Your approach to put your testimony in writing and share it with the 6 elders is the appropriate path to take. Their response demonstrates clearly to me that this is in fact not the case. You are missing the key reason that they have not responded in a way of reconciliation. Since they are unwilling to fellowship or share that reason with you I conclude that it is shameful.

This also demonstrates the ugly side of the expression "pay the price for the recovery". I think their response indicates that cutting off dear, genuine brothers in a way that is clearly contrary to the Lord is part of the "price" they are willing to pay.

Your letter focuses on digging deep to understand the issues, mistakes and even sins that need to be dealt with in order to go on. Their response is that "you don't belong in the Recovery". I understand that to mean that "light and truth don't belong".

I agree that you are in the light, seeking the truth and seeking reconciliation, and following the Lord in the way you seek this. However, they make a number of accusations: that you want the recovery to conform to your thoughts and concept, you don’t agree with what the Recovery stands for, it is impossible to change an entire group, you have a history of damage, not right with the Body, your thought is wrong, you have no light in this matter, without light you’ll never be able to come back, and you are completely in the dark. All of these together confirm the Paul's word that there is no fellowship between light and dark.

That said I do agree with one of their claims: "it doesn't make sense that you would want to come back to a place that is so wrong". I hope that you are using this forum to "tell it to the church" so that you can now move on.
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Old 06-13-2018, 05:23 PM   #576
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Default Re: Return to the Vision

The Relationship among the Co-workers


Daystar did not match the church in life an nature or the vision of the apostles or New and Lee. It was the devastating first step of mixing the world with the church that led to its decline and loss of heavenly character.

In the beginning,

There was neither financial control nor central control. Paul received the supply from the Lord for his own living, and his co-workers received the supply from the Lord for their own living. They took care of one another in love. Since there was no organization among them, everything was so clear, free, and simple.[/COLOR]" (The Life and Way to Practice the Church Life, chapter 12, 1963, Witness Lee)

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Old 06-14-2018, 02:43 AM   #577
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Steve, I think you should start with the beginning.

Please tell all about your book, "In the Wake of the New Way", which is really why your were shunned and banned. They still have not forgiven you for exposing a terrible trend they had allowed to grow.
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Old 06-14-2018, 08:06 AM   #578
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Default Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

One thing I appreciate about Steve's writing is it insistently places the focus on real human beings and the consequences of our behaviours on our relations with others. Instead of getting lost in disembodied abstractions like "the ground" or "the ministry" or "the church", he keeps coming back to what actual people have done and continue to do. I think it's important to keep that focus as he has. Nothing wrong with abstractions per se, but they must be continually rooted in a commonly agreed-upon physical reality of people, places, actions.
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Old 06-14-2018, 03:21 PM   #579
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One thing I appreciate about Steve's writing is it insistently places the focus on real human beings and the consequences of our behaviours on our relations with others. Instead of getting lost in disembodied abstractions like "the ground" or "the ministry" or "the church", he keeps coming back to what actual people have done and continue to do. I think it's important to keep that focus as he has. Nothing wrong with abstractions per se, but they must be continually rooted in a commonly agreed-upon physical reality of people, places, actions.

http://lordsrecovery.us/neefurthertalksground.pdf
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:43 PM   #580
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Steve, I think you should start with the beginning.

Please tell all about your book, "In the Wake of the New Way", which is really why your were shunned and banned. They still have not forgiven you for exposing a terrible trend they had allowed to grow.
You are right about that, and the path of deviation was followed instead.

I went from that first writing to doing websites, when I felt it would help. This one in the link was from around 2007 with several voices calling out to the leaders and giving testimony.

www.makingstraightthewayofthelord.com

Come back, come back, brothers, to the vision!
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:48 PM   #581
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By the way, what happened to the one publication edict? I've noticed that everyone is blogging these days. News songs are being written and posted on the internet. I doubt all of them are LSM approved. Not sure if the one publication can really be carried out. It was possible before the internet era. But now with thousands of members blogging, writing on forums, posting music, messages, etc..., it is impossible to police the situation. I don't think this one publication thing is going to last for very long. What do you guys think?

I can confirm that, at least as of the past year or two, some level of policing of internet content produced by individual saints still occurs. I cannot speak to if there is LSM-level policing, but there are a lot of indoctrinated saints with eyes of policemen out there. It is very easy to figure out who owns a site, where that saint lives, who the elders are in that locality, and to contact them about the "rogue" content (content that is otherwise fully acceptable to any non-Nee/Lee Christian). And abracadabra!! The site is then pulled down!
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Old 06-17-2018, 07:06 AM   #582
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. . .there are a lot of indoctrinated saints with eyes of policemen out there. It is very easy to figure out who owns a site, where that saint lives, who the elders are in that locality, and to contact them about the "rogue" content (content that is otherwise fully acceptable to any non-Nee/Lee Christian). And abracadabra!! The site is then pulled down!
Also referred to as "fellowship".
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Old 06-17-2018, 05:01 PM   #583
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Default Re: "They feared that speaking out might ruin the unity"

CATHOLIC CHURCH

"Watchman Nee writes, "We must take notice of one condition that prevailed after the Roman Catholic Church came into being. We know how the Roman Church was filled with heresy, idols, filthiness, and sins. Why did no brothers or sisters in the church stand up to deal with the situation for eleven hundred years? Could it be that no brothers or sisters had seen the heresies? Could it be that they had not seen the idols? Could it be that they had not seen the filthy sins?

In the eleven hundred years following the fourth century, there were definitely some who saw the heresies, idols, and filthy sins, but not one dared to deal with them! They feared that once they dealt with these things, they would immediately break the “unity.” “The church is one,” they said. “If we begin to deal with the idols, the church will be divided.” They felt that the sin of worshipping idols was great, but the sin of ruining the unity was even greater. Therefore, even though they rejected the worship of idols themselves, they did not speak out. They feared that speaking out might ruin the unity. They knew of the heresies and they knew of the idols; moreover, they hated the heresies and they hated the idols. But even more, they hated to destroy the unity. Therefore, they simply avoided the heresies and idols; they dared not evoke any word, message, or action that might ruin the unity. For a period of one thousand one hundred years no one made any move; they continued to keep the unity of the church." (Further Talks on the Church Life, ch 4, online, Ministrybooks.org)


In the Wake of the New Way


http://lordsrecovery.us/uploads/3/4/...ayabridged.pdf
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:03 PM   #584
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CATHOLIC CHURCH

"Watchman Nee writes, "We must take notice of one condition that prevailed after the Roman Catholic Church came into being. We know how the Roman Church was filled with heresy, idols, filthiness, and sins. Why did no brothers or sisters in the church stand up to deal with the situation for eleven hundred years? Could it be that no brothers or sisters had seen the heresies? Could it be that they had not seen the idols? Could it be that they had not seen the filthy sins?

In the eleven hundred years following the fourth century, there were definitely some who saw the heresies, idols, and filthy sins, but not one dared to deal with them! They feared that once they dealt with these things, they would immediately break the “unity.” “The church is one,” they said. “If we begin to deal with the idols, the church will be divided.” They felt that the sin of worshipping idols was great, but the sin of ruining the unity was even greater. Therefore, even though they rejected the worship of idols themselves, they did not speak out. They feared that speaking out might ruin the unity. They knew of the heresies and they knew of the idols; moreover, they hated the heresies and they hated the idols. But even more, they hated to destroy the unity. Therefore, they simply avoided the heresies and idols; they dared not evoke any word, message, or action that might ruin the unity. For a period of one thousand one hundred years no one made any move; they continued to keep the unity of the church." (Further Talks on the Church Life, ch 4, online, Ministrybooks.org)


In the Wake of the New Way


http://lordsrecovery.us/uploads/3/4/...ayabridged.pdf
Watchman Nee said,

"There were definitely some who saw the heresies, idols, and filthy sins, but not one dared to deal with them! They feared that once they dealt with these things, they would immediately break the “unity." (Further Talks)


And, we have to see that there is much more concern for the unity of the Local Churches than for dealing with sins and idols.

Genesis program # 43, with Dick Taylor, on the covering of Noah. They (Dick and Chris) were subdued throughout, speaking against conscience, supporting the insufferable concept that “we must have the view of God’s government, not of the mistakes of a leader”; that “we have to exercise to be blind and just keep enjoying Christ, not that there isn’t any division, immorality, or idol worship”. - DickTaylor

http://lsmradio.org/audio/genesis.html #43
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:01 PM   #585
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http://leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/...dsrecovery.pdf

Today is August 2nd 2018, and on August 2nd 2000 I began to write about concerns that I had in the local churches. I did not know that from writing down my concerns I was going to be set apart from the fellowship of the church when my writing came to fruition.

But I wrote from my heart and to this day 18 years later I still prefer to address the truth and oppose works of darkness. There is still the Earth to possess and man has yet to possess it in the Name of Christ and for the fulfilling of God's eternal purpose. In other words, His kingdom has not yet come in with His righteous rule and reign over every people, tribe, city, and nation.

"The local churches" purport to represent God's move in His administration over all the Earth, yet they still believe they can do so without ever exposing their works of darkness and the devastating effects of their deviation from Christ and the church.

It is good for leaders like Ron Kangas to examine themselves, as W. Lee did in the end and reported so to them, opaquely. There has "never" been a thorough public repentance by the leadership in "the local churches" since the Shanghai Christian Assembly in 1957 did so, with regional support. As a reminder, Ron Kangas has "never" repented for one thing that he has spoken or done, and neither did brother Lee specifically repent for anything, publicly, that had meaningful impact in the Body. In other words the things that caused much strife, heartache, and division are still covered up.

"Democracy dies in darkness" said David Nunes of the U. S.government And, so does the church. There is no transparency among the leaders of "the local churches". And there is also “no” rule and reign.

A glimmer of transparency appeared with Minoru Chen, who toward the end of the late eighties turmoil confessed that the promotions and divisive activities of LSM and Philip Lee were wrong and he repented for his part in the heavy promotions of a man, his ministry, and ministry office. In doing this before the church in Anaheim, he was agreeing with his fellow elders (who just gave 16 points of concern over the direction of the churches) We have a very superficial leadership today that captains the same movement that caused a huge cloud of darkness and division in the late 80s.
The books of darkness came out and the lies of both commission and omission by clouded leaders ruled the night.

Witness Lee: "The book, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here. I hope that you brothers who have come to attend this conference will not mention it anymore. It does not deserve any more mentioning." (Message given 4/18/90 from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy page 11).


Like I said, books of darkness ruled the night. (Contributing also to such works were authors Ron Kangas and Andrew Yu in their books.)


DEVIATING FROM THE PATH IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY.

http://makingstraightthewayofthelord...dsRecovery.pdf

Bill Mallon and his wife visited me in 2005 and over lunch he suggested that I write a narrative about my experience in the local churches. I suggested instead that I write about the other side of the story to The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, and to do so point by point. He agreed that this idea also would be good. And I began that day to uncover the works of darkness over a two year period, Jan 2005 to Jan 2007, with deep interest in "repentance, restoration, and revival among the leaders and the saints in the local churches." OR whatever would work toward the truth and God's glory and gain. A long-time current local church brother edited this writing 5 times before it went onto the forum.

This is a book of transparency and none of the blending brothers refute it publicly.
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Old 08-04-2018, 11:31 AM   #586
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http://leadersofthelordsrecovery.us/...dsrecovery.pdf

Today is August 2nd 2018, and on August 2nd 2000 I began to write about concerns that I had in the local churches. I did not know that from writing down my concerns I was going to be set apart from the fellowship of the church when my writing came to fruition.

But I wrote from my heart and to this day 18 years later I still prefer to address the truth and oppose works of darkness. There is still the Earth to possess and man has yet to possess it in the Name of Christ and for the fulfilling of God's eternal purpose. In other words, His kingdom has not yet come in with His righteous rule and reign over every people, tribe, city, and nation.

"The local churches" purport to represent God's move in His administration over all the Earth, yet they still believe they can do so without ever exposing their works of darkness and the devastating effects of their deviation from Christ and the church.

It is good for leaders like Ron Kangas to examine themselves, as W. Lee did in the end and reported so to them, opaquely. There has "never" been a thorough public repentance by the leadership in "the local churches" since the Shanghai Christian Assembly in 1957 did so, with regional support. As a reminder, Ron Kangas has "never" repented for one thing that he has spoken or done, and neither did brother Lee specifically repent for anything, publicly, that had meaningful impact in the Body. In other words the things that caused much strife, heartache, and division are still covered up.

"Democracy dies in darkness" said David Nunes of the U. S.government And, so does the church. There is no transparency among the leaders of "the local churches". And there is also “no” rule and reign.

A glimmer of transparency appeared with Minoru Chen, who toward the end of the late eighties turmoil confessed that the promotions and divisive activities of LSM and Philip Lee were wrong and he repented for his part in the heavy promotions of a man, his ministry, and ministry office. In doing this before the church in Anaheim, he was agreeing with his fellow elders (who just gave 16 points of concern over the direction of the churches) We have a very superficial leadership today that captains the same movement that caused a huge cloud of darkness and division in the late 80s.
The books of darkness came out and the lies of both commission and omission by clouded leaders ruled the night.

Witness Lee: "The book, The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here. I hope that you brothers who have come to attend this conference will not mention it anymore. It does not deserve any more mentioning." (Message given 4/18/90 from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy page 11).


Like I said, books of darkness ruled the night. (Contributing also to such works were authors Ron Kangas and Andrew Yu in their books.)


DEVIATING FROM THE PATH IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY.

http://makingstraightthewayofthelord...dsRecovery.pdf

Bill Mallon and his wife visited me in 2005 and over lunch he suggested that I write a narrative about my experience in the local churches. I suggested instead that I write about the other side of the story to The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, and to do so point by point. He agreed that this idea also would be good. And I began that day to uncover the works of darkness over a two year period, Jan 2005 to Jan 2007, with deep interest in "repentance, restoration, and revival among the leaders and the saints in the local churches." OR whatever would work toward the truth and God's glory and gain. A long-time current local church brother edited this writing 5 times before it went onto the forum.

This is a book of transparency and none of the blending brothers refute it publicly.
Honestly, if the the blending brothers had maintained a spirit of recovery of CHRIST and the church, the great mystery that Paul revealed in Ephesians and that brothers Nee and Lee possessed in their beginning; then they would have ushered in many more transferrals "out of darkness" and "into the kingdom of the Son of His love", and would have much more spiritual weight to match their vacuous "boast" in "the local churches"of being the recovered church. (Col. 1) But they took another spirit, the same spirit that came into Witness Lee. And the movement for a man and a ministry was on.
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Old 09-11-2018, 06:41 PM   #587
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Hi, is it appropriate here to ask concerning what happened to Gene Gruhler, why he left Anaheim? And what happened to Dan Towle, that he left Fullerton and is apparently not meeting?
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:56 PM   #588
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Hi, is it appropriate here to ask concerning what happened to Gene Gruhler, why he left Anaheim? And what happened to Dan Towle, that he left Fullerton and is apparently not meeting?
As you may or may not know, Gene Gruhler was an Elder in Anaheim back in the 70s. At some point he moved to Denver, presumably to function as the lead elder there. I believe this would have been sometime after the Max Rapoport situation in 1978. After departing Anaheim, Max and his family moved to the Denver area. There was a lot of disturbance and turmoil in the Church in Denver at that point. Eventually a couple of the Elders and a large portion of the congregation "left" the Church in Denver. It was at that point, I believe Gene Gruler came for his first stint in Denver.

After the turmoil and division of the late 80s in Southern California (involving John Ingalls et al) Witness Lee asked Gene Gruhler to return from Denver to Anaheim. (ostensibly to replace Ingalls, Knoch et al) At some point (memory fails me on exact year) Gruhler again returned to Denver where he has been ever since. For his first stint Gruhler was naturally the lead elder in the church in Denver. Upon his return, and more so in later years, Gene became what could be described as a "mentor" and advisor of the existing elders. In recent years Mary Gruhler's heath has become quite serious and Gene has been relegated to her full-time care. I don't believe he has attended meetings on a regular basis in quite a while.

As far as Dan Towle, I have not heard anything about his situation. At one time he was one of the principals of DCP. I don't think his name appears anymore related to DCP. I would be very surprised if he left the Local Church. Could you please be a little more specific on where you heard this information?
-
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Old 09-13-2018, 02:35 PM   #589
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At some point (memory fails me on exact year) Gruhler again returned to Denver where he has been ever since. -
I heard (~AD 2004) that, after Lee passed, some of the Blendeds in Anaheim felt GG was "too legalistic," and asked him to leave, at which point many were "happy" when he was gone.
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:41 PM   #590
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Thanks for your input. Yes, I heard the same concerning Gene Gruhler, but WL was still alive when he left. Concerning Dan Towle, something happened and he left Fullerton and supposedly is not meeting anymore. But I don´t know any details. He might be living in Phoenix now, according to some basic name searches on the net.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:45 PM   #591
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Yes,
That is what I heard also about Dan Towle. But no details nor confirmation from anyone who would know or anyone talking to anybody who would know.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:33 PM   #592
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I heard (~AD 2004) that, after Lee passed, some of the Blendeds in Anaheim felt GG was "too legalistic," and asked him to leave, at which point many were "happy" when he was gone.
According to Norm Minahan, he had a different perspective via posts from thebereans.net:

"Here is how I understood what took place related to GG.

GG signed the letter of quarantine related to Philip. I have good reason to believe GG was the main promoter of that letter.

I believe it was late 1996 in Anaheim GG read a letter removing that quarantine and then one announcing his moving to Denver.

Here is something which I had posted earlier on another thread:

Another very interesting event transpired shortly before Br. Lee’s death. Two announcements were made after a meeting. First, a letter was read by Gene Gruhler which reinstated Phillip Lee into the church fellowship. Second, Gene announced his moving to Denver. To most this was coincidental.

After GG was gone you began to hear, behind the scenes, the joy from some of the blended speakers that he was finally gone. Ed Marks spoke some of the strongest words. There was no love lost.

Eventually after Br. Lee’s departure there was a reassigning of the regions of the work to brothers. GG had always taken care of the Mountain States. Now, even though he was living in Denver, Mel Porter was the new worker to oversee that region.

Four years ago, while in the Denver area doing research for a book, I visited Br. Gene, not related to the book. He did not speak about the things that transpired in Anaheim. He has very high standards for himself before the Lord. There was only one little sentence of three words spoken at the very end when I was leaving. I realized from them he had been maneuvered out of Anaheim with the view to purge him out
"
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Old 09-26-2018, 04:55 PM   #593
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Default Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

I can't help but see the parallels between the leadership of the Lord's Recovery from the 30's to today and the leadership of the Soviet party. Especially the Moscow show trials and the tools used to remove leaders that were not sufficiently loyal to the current party in power.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:25 PM   #594
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Please delete I have to correct something tomorrow. Sorry admin.
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Old 10-12-2018, 03:39 PM   #595
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Default RE: Obeisance Leading to Division

http://www.Lordsrecovery.us/Obeisanc...toDivision.pdf


The governing vision of two of the five elders in Anaheim 1987-1989

When Witness Lee had begun the “Lord's new move” in the local churches, you, Minoru, were to come under a severe test as an elder in Anaheim. Would you stand one with the elders in your locality according to the vision that governed the church from the beginning; or would you capitulate to a new and broadened view introduced to the churches under the leadership of Witness Lee?
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Old 10-13-2018, 02:59 PM   #596
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http://www.Lordsrecovery.us/Obeisanc...toDivision.pdf


The governing vision of two of the five elders in Anaheim 1987-1989

When Witness Lee had begun the “Lord's new move” in the local churches, you, Minoru, were to come under a severe test as an elder in Anaheim. Would you stand one with the elders in your locality according to the vision that governed the church from the beginning; or would you capitulate to a new and broadened view introduced to the churches under the leadership of Witness Lee?

An email sent today

Public Statement - Los Angeles brothers - 1963
www.lordsrecovery.us/PublicStatement.pdf


Hello dear brothers,

I would like to have fellowship with you.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/Obeisanc...toDivision.pdf
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Old 10-14-2018, 04:24 PM   #597
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Default Re: The Superimposed Vision of a Universal Leader

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http://www.Lordsrecovery.us/Obeisanc...toDivision.pdf


The governing vision of two of the five elders in Anaheim 1987-1989

When Witness Lee had begun the “Lord's new move” in the local churches, Minoru was to come under a severe test as an elder in Anaheim. Would you stand one with the elders in your locality according to the vision that governed the church from the beginning; or would you capitulate to a new and broadened view introduced to the churches under the leadership of Witness Lee?
In January 1971 I came into the fellowship of the Son in the local churches, even migrating in August 1972 to Indianapolis. Then in May of 1974 we consolidated to Chicago. The reason some of the churches consolidated to a larger locality was because of Witness Lee ministry stations being established. So we moved not knowing anything but to follow the leadership.

I found out much later what we were being led into that year and why that directive from Anaheim took place. And I know why biannual trainings started that year and in general that untold suffering of the saints is still untold in the FILTERED VERSION of local church history.

My purpose for being on the internet is to expose what has been filtered out of LSM ANNALS of LC history and record what leaders are trained to ignore and keep hidden.

Superimposed Vision

Specifically, on this thread, we should see what happened with the governing vision Brother Lee brought to the United States that bore spiritual fruit in life, numbers, and the establishment and spread of local churches for God's Building on the earth till 1974.

But a new vision was in the making since 1974 and manifested itself in full in 1986 and became a test to elders when it was superimposed on the churches by a universal leader. The pledge letter signed by 400+ leaders was written by two Texas elders campaigning for a oneness hitherto not imposed in the Lord's recovery.


]ohn Ingalls - 1990

"...In Ephesians 4 there are seven factors of our oneness and only seven.* But today other factors, at least in practice, been added, such as, one ministry, one leadership, one deputy authority, and one divine oracle. These have been made factors of our oneness, so that if any individuals or churches do not adhere to the 'one ministry', or the 'one leadership', etc., they are cut off or labeled negatively. We have many examples to substantiate it...“I would like to know what truth we have ever changed or are in danger of changing. Rather we have sought to be faithful to the truth, much of which we have seen through the help of Brother Lee’s ministry."

Brother Minoru Chen was one who followed the Pledge, with the superimposed vision and added conditions of oneness. John Ingalls was following the governing NT vision of Nee and Lee he received in 1962 at the inception of the church life in LA, where he was one of the original elders.



Public Statement 1963

www.Lordsrecovery.us/PublicStatement.pdf

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Oct 14, 2018
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:03 AM   #598
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Default Re: An Epidemic of Lawless speaking

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Exactly!

The whole death v. life thing is another handy tool of deception used by Witness Lee and now LSM employees to divert attention away from their own behavior and history. "Pay attention to life not right and wrong" etc are catch-all phrases designed to stop those with legit concerns in their tracks. It gives those doing wrong or covering up wrong a license to do whatever they want without recourse.
And guess what else?
"LIFE" is more important to the LSM than God's LOVE and God's LIGHT. I do not see any love for God, the brethren, families or friends.

Jesus even said to love your enemies.
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,


They are so immersed in the darkness of Lee's church, they have no LIGHT.
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Old 10-15-2018, 02:38 PM   #599
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Default Elders' Book of Cherishing - Lee Minoru Nee Chapman

"And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:2)

* * * * *

2002

(intro to first site) "This website on hiding history brings out the negative aspects of our history that have had a serious detrimental effect on the recovery and on the Body of Christ. It is out of a high regard for the Lord's interests in His recovery and a concern for the oneness among His people that I have prepared this website.

"I am currently not in any of the churches in a practical way, and I would like to share the reason for this. On a smaller scale, I had tried to address church matters in 2000. I wrote a booklet and presented it to a leading brother, Dan Towle, from Southern California. I said in a cover letter,.

'I have written a little book for the sake of fellowship, mainly with leading ones, concerning our past 16-year history in the new way." I said that I didn't plan to have the booklet "widespread" and that I thought it was "safe" to come to him and that perhaps he could "catch me" if I was "inaccurate" or "unfair" in any matter so that I might make an "adjustment" or "terminate" the proposed fellowship. I also indicated my hope that the writing might build a bridge of communication to those who had left the recovery In the Wake of the New Way.'

"To my surprise, rather than grant me time for fellowship, Dan recommended to elders in my locality that I be placed into a discipline mode until I could "repent". I remain in a discipline mode today after 2+ years. I also remain without fellowship on the matters I asked Dan to address, and that other elders had read about also, but have not addressed.

The action of discipline taken against me when I was specifically asking Dan for his fellowship served only to inspire me to consider what kind of spirit this was in our brother and what kind of spirit it is that has come into the recovery.

"I had first encountered this spirit with local elders in 1996 and at that time began to consider tracing it back to its source. Something else compelling me to seek an understanding of this spirit was the lack of love and shepherding in the church in my locality. I began to search for answers by contacting former leading ones who left the recovery during a time of turmoil in the late eighties. It was this association with these formerly beloved brothers who were once among us that I was put aside, along with the assessment that I was attacking the recovery in my booklet. In my heart, my desire was simply to address serious concerns that many of us have and to build a bridge of communication with those who left.

This website is about these brothers' experiences and the manifestation of a spirit that brother Witness Lee partly describes in A Word of Love, and that the documents and testimonies on this site describe further. Brother Lee points out that it is a spirit that "has filled all the churches", and "is now spreading everywhere around the globe in the Lord's recovery". It is a spirit that "labels others" and does not care for the ones who are "inferior to us". It is a spirit that "condemns and regulates others, rather than shepherd and seek them." It is a spirit that does not "love the opposers", even the "top rebels". It is a spirit that "we have lost among the coworkers, elders, and vital groups.'

"As I have said before, the spirit of not shepherding and seeking others and being without love and forgiveness is spreading in the recovery everywhere. I believe that not having the Father's loving and forgiving heart and not having the Savior's shepherding and seeking spirit is the reason for our barrenness ...We condemn and regulate others rather than shepherd and seek them. We are short of love and shepherding. These are the vital factors for us to bear fruit, that is, to gain people. I am very concerned for our full-time training. Do we train the young ones to gain people or to regulate people? We have to reconsider our ways, as Haggai said (1:5). Our way is not right; something is wrong". (pp. 40-41)

I've shared this from 16 years ago to show I am the same today. Seeking fellowship. Far from being an opposer, I am a proposer. I propose we examine ourselves. and also consider this wonderful following fellowship. Inciting unto love and good works.

Elders' Book of Cherishing

https://www.amazon.com/Elders-Cheris.../dp/1508568006

I will look for the free pdf of this most useful book. A gateway, in fact, to revival.
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Old 10-17-2018, 09:49 AM   #600
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Default Re: 1998. The recovery needs a revival - Minoru

Elders' Book of Cherishing 2007 .PDF
http://lordsrecovery.us/CherishingBook.pdf

Brother Indeed
Darby Quote- "I speak about the heavenlies, Chapman dwells in them."

Amazon 2015 E-Book
https://www.amazon.com/Elders-Cheris.../dp/1508568006


"...Get this burden. The Lord needs to bring in a revival in His recovery, a revival that is brought in only by a prevailing shepherding church life everywhere" - 1998 Minoru, Atlanta conference 20 years ago
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:06 PM   #601
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Default Re:John So / John Ingalls respond to Fermentation charges

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http://www.Lordsrecovery.us/Obeisanc...toDivision.pdf


When Witness Lee had begun the “Lord's new move” in the local churches, you, Minoru, were to come under a severe test as an elder in Anaheim. Would you stand one with the elders in your locality according to the vision that governed the church from the beginning; or would you capitulate to a new and broadened view introduced to the churches under the leadership of Witness Lee?
John So

Five Brothers Come to Stuttgart

"Using Brother Lee's own term, "the fermentation" actually started at Stuttgart in 1986 by the coming of five brothers sent by Witness Lee and sent by his office, Philip Lee. Ironically, things didn’t start with us. At that time Witness Lee was invited by us to come to Germany and we were all expecting Brother Lee to come. But to our disappointment, Brother Lee didn’t come. He said he was busy and instead he and his office sent five brothers to come to Stuttgart. I think brother Ray Graver came, brother Benson Phillips, brother Minoru Chen, brother Ken Unger, and brother Dan Towle. The Lord knows we were disappointed. We brothers had had fellowship just before the brothers came, and I told the brothers--and all the brothers could testify for me--that we should receive these brothers just as Witness Lee himself. We should not make any difference.

So the five brothers came. You have to realize I’m speaking retrospectively—I’m looking back. At that time we thought their intention was to give a conference, even the “one accord” conference that Witness Lee had just given in the elders’ meeting in Anaheim. So we welcomed them. But to our surprise, these five brothers themselves proclaimed that their burden was not for the conference, but that their burden was for the afternoon fellowship they would have with the leading brothers from Europe. There were at least a hundred brothers present there, and every afternoon from 3:00 to 5:30 or 6:00, we had fellowship with these five brothers, and they told us what their burden was in coming to Stuttgart. It was concerning the leading of the ministry office, that the churches in Europe would become one with the office of Living Stream Ministry. And I do have the tapes of these meetings. They were on record and since the matter is opened up, I would certainly request the brothers in Stuttgart to transcribe all these messages and make them available to the public. During all those afternoons I was present just a few times and almost at the end of these meetings sometimes. In those afternoons the brothers’ burden was very strong to propagate and to promote the ministry office, and at that time, really, none of the leading brothers had any idea what the office is. At one point, somebody was very ignorantly and innocently asking, “Well, what is the office, anyway?” And everybody laughed. Of course, we found out that the office is really Brother Lee’s son, Philip Lee.

You know, it might be public knowledge for everybody perhaps, except for the brothers in Europe. Now, this was the motive of these brothers’ coming. This is not my judgment—this was their proclamation. They said it themselves.


John So’s Understanding of the Office

At that time my understanding of the business office of Witness Lee was exactly what Witness Lee publicly proclaimed it to be - an office to take care of producing tapes, printing books, and distributing the books and tapes to serve all the churches. That was really my understanding. And for some reason, there was a lot of problem in Anaheim, in the home office of the Living Stream. The fellowship there between the churches in Orange County and the office was not very nice, and I happened to be in one of the meetings, that must be in 1982, and Witness Lee was sharing quite strongly to all the serving ones, especially regarding the Chinese work and the serving ones in the LSM office. And obviously there was a conflict between the office, which is Brother Lee’s office, which is also Brother Lee’s son, and many serving ones there. And Brother Lee again emphasized in those meetings—He said, “Should my private cook in my house also be a spiritual person? What if I hire an unbeliever to print books, this is my business office. My printer doesn’t have to be a spiritual person. And I do have the right to hire my son to be manager of my office to take care of this business for me.” I fully agreed. At that time, I really said, “fair enough, fair enough.” The Lord knows. And in fact one of those afternoons—I wish they had printed this out—because they did print out what I shared in these pages in pages 21-25. If you say this is the beginning of rebellion I do ask you to read every word of what I shared there. I’m glad they printed it out. I really am glad. Because if you read what I shared here word for word, I was not at all rebelling. I would challenge you to find one rebellious word here. In fact, I was supporting these brothers according to my understanding of what the business office of Witness Lee is. I’m glad it was printed out.

At that time, I really meant what I said according to my understanding of the function of the ministry office; and I fully agreed with Witness Lee that if the LSM is only operating on the business side to print books and to distribute tapes, then we brothers should accept this, and cooperate with them.

Indeed, in the earlier years in Germany we had enjoyed marvelous liberty to translate and print books. In fact in 1981 when the Irving office for the Living Stream Ministry was being built, the brothers in Germany asked me, “John, maybe you should go and ask Brother Lee if they want the publishers in Germany to be all under one administration, because we don’t want to be doing our own thing”. And, really we did not. I went to Brother Lee that summer and in his own home I shared what the brothers asked me to tell him. Brother Lee said, “No, no, no, no, you are doing a good job. Go ahead.” So I really appreciated that. We were really one with the office at that time. In a proper way, we were one with the Living Stream Ministry, according to my understanding of the function of the office.


Promotion of Philip Lee as “the Office”

Well, the question is this: I was accused here in Fermentation of pretending to be one with them, the LSM, but that really I was against them. Tonight let me say a word. I don’t want to vindicate, but I just like to share at least the way we look at it. Everything has two sides. I’m sorry to say, it is not that I am pretending. It is because the LSM office really has a double standard. There is a public declaration that the office is only for the business side to print books, to duplicate tapes, and to send them out to serve the churches. But to my realization, there is another aspect expected of us. During the visit of these five brothers to Stuttgart, two of them stayed with me in my home—two of them [Minoru? very likely]. And these brothers began to somehow fellowship with me concerning the office, that the office is really brother Philip Lee and that brother Philip Lee is the closest and most intimate co-worker of Witness Lee. And that I need to get into the fellowship with him, and that our brother, Witness Lee, needs his son. And after almost every meeting in Stuttgart, they made a long-distance call to the office to report everything that is happening. To the office! The report went to the office.

I was, in short, expected to do the same. I told the brothers in a very good way—we were not fighting—I said, “Brothers, I’m sorry, in short, I just cannot do that. You have the grace to do it, that’s fine, but I just cannot do that.” I told the brothers maybe some other German brothers, like Jorn Urlenbac could do it. I was told, No, no, no, you are the right person to do it. I said, Thank you, but I can’t do it. This is what I realized later was the cause of many problems that we in Stuttgart began to experience with the LSM. A report had gone back to Philip Lee that I refused to do what the brothers were doing. Looking back, this is what caused a serious problem with him.

In my view, however, what they were doing in reporting everything to the office had nothing to do with Witness Lee’s public declaration of what the office is. I didn’t feel there was a need for me to report to the office what we were doing. But these brothers who came to Stuttgart were telling me that Witness Lee’s son is his closest and most intimate co-worker. I have to say I had never heard such a thing before. But these two brothers who stayed with me assured me that this was true though Brother Lee doesn’t say this publicly. Well, I say, if I haven’t heard of this, I just haven’t heard of it. Anyway, a report went back to Anaheim, and somebody wasn’t happy with me. I was happy with everybody, but somebody wasn’t happy with me. _John So

John Ingalls

Fellowship With the Elders in Anaheim Chinese-Speaking Meetings

In the Spring of 1988 Minoru Chen had returned from his stay in Taiwan as a trainer in the FTTT to resume his eldership in Anaheim, as appointed by Brother Lee in February 1986. Yet for some months he had hardly any contact with us. On Thursday evening, August 18th, Godfred and I had a long and frank fellowship with him. Godfred spoke at length, presenting his realization of the misconduct in the LSM office. I gave an account of my realization of the whole situation and our present standing. Minoru listened passively to our fellowship. Due to the lateness of the hour he was unable to reply adequately. We had confronted Minoru with reports that he had spoken negatively about us behind our backs to others about grave concerns he had for us, his fellow elders. He admitted that he had done this to the leading brothers in the Chinese-speaking work.
On Friday evening, August 26th Godfred, Al, and I came together with Philip Lin and Minoru Chen, the two elders on the Chinese-speaking side. Altogether we constituted the five elders of the church in Anaheim. We noted that this was the first time ever that all five of us had come together for fellowship. That was remarkable, since we had all been in the position of elders since February 1986, two and one half years prior to that time. We had some very frank fellowship regarding the problem of the Chinese-speaking meetings, which had always been a source of great frustration and troubling to the church since they were started in 1980. It was as if we had two different churches in Anaheim with two different leadings, a situation that we simply tolerated and could do very little about because of the involvement of Brother Lee and the Living Stream Ministry with the Chinese-speaking meetings. The brothers insisted that they considered the Chinese-speaking meetings a part of the church, and they desired henceforth to practice that oneness under one eldership. This began a period in which we sought to maintain more fellowship and coordination as one eldership with these brothers.

Minoru inquired regarding the content of the special meeting set for August 28th, and Godfred gave him a resume of the points we would cover.


More Fellowship With Brother Lee August 25, 26, 1988

On Thursday, August 25th, Brother Lee asked me to come to his home for further fellowship. He said then that he would ask Godfred and Al to come to his home the following day, Friday. It seemed strange to me that he would separate us, asking me to come on one day and them on another. But he said I could come too on Friday if I liked. On Thursday alone with me, Brother Lee asked me what changes I thought he should have. This greatly surprised me. Perhaps he was thinking of my fellowship with him on June 22nd, when I told him that if he did not have some change, it would be difficult for the churches to go on. I said, "Brother Lee, please give me a moment to collect my thoughts." I was concerned what I should say to him. Then I proceeded to mention a few of the concerns previously mentioned. Moreover, I tried to impress him that I never tried to use the term "autonomy" in all of my speaking. Throughout these months I had told him this several times. I stated that I was burdened to speak about local administration together with universal fellowship (as we have in our hymn, #824, authored by Brother Lee and translated from Chinese: Administration local, each answering to the Lord; Communion universal, upheld in one accord.) He responded, "that’s my teaching." I agreed that it was indeed his teaching. So what was wrong?

The next afternoon, Friday, August 26th, I joined Godfred and Al at Brother Lee’s home. Godfred spoke strongly, asking Brother Lee first if he had spoken anything against us recently. He replied that he had not. Then Godfred reasoned with him: How is it that you speak against autonomy, considering that a problem, but you will not deal with the problems that we brought to your attention. Godfred spoke earnestly and impressively. He said, "the center of the church should be Christ, but He has been replaced by you and your ministry." Brother Lee was touched by what Godfred said, and perhaps considering that what he had just alleged afforded some light for clearing up the problem, he said, "I like to hear that." I recall the scene vividly, and his words still echo in my ears. It seemed that this time Brother Lee appreciated the frank fellowship and was trying to warm up to us. But we could not seem to make any real progress. Brother Lee remarked that everything that had happened in Europe which had caused so great a problem between the churches and the Living Stream Ministry was just a misunderstanding. After the meeting Godfred told us that he wanted to leave the eldership and was fully disgusted with the whole situation.

Sixteen Points August 28, 1988
As the day drew near for special fellowship with the church as we had announced, Godfred, Al and I came together for prayer and fellowship regarding the content of the coming gathering. We only knew that we needed to clear up some matters, and set a direction for the church, and we had been praying individually for guidance concerning the specific points that should be covered. I proposed to the brothers that we briefly expound a number of basic matters according to the Word of God that set forth the proper standing of the church, touching especially the aspects both of truth and practice that related to our current situation. The brothers consented. After some consideration we decided that I would cover eight points concerning the truth and Godfred would cover eight points regarding the practice; in conclusion Al would give a testimony of confirmation.
The appointed time arrived for the meeting. (Brother Lee meanwhile was in San Gabriel, meeting with the Chinese-speaking saints.) This time, we felt, was very crucial to our going on. There were over two hundred saints on hand, including some on the Chinese-speaking side who understood English (a good number considering our usual attendance). Brothers Minoru Chen and Philip Lin with the three of us sat together in the front…..
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Old 10-19-2018, 06:19 PM   #602
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Default Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

Can anyone tell me who are the following people and what do they do at LSM?

Tim Graver
Theodore Hage
Joseph Prim
Yin Fong Lee
Samuel Lee
Philemon Lee
Hannah Lee
Joanna Kuo
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:06 PM   #603
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Default Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

I would think that Tim Graver is Ray Graver's son?

All the Lee's are close relatives of Witness Lee. (Sons, daughters, grandkids, etc) Someone could correct me if I'm wrong on this.

I'm not sure I have seen any of these Lees listed in the recent tax documents of The Living Stream Ministry. But that doesn't mean they are not on "the payroll" or receiving significant royalties from the LSM books and publications. The Blended Brothers have been extremely tight lipped about these kind of financial dealings with Witness Lee's heirs.

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Old 10-19-2018, 09:41 PM   #604
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Tax filings are usually 1.5 years delayed in posting so i downloaded the last 3 years. The list of people above are non-director payments (mostly W-2). Justed wanted to know if they are actually providing a service in exchange for payment ("real job"). Royalties should be accounted for in other ways (such as through a trust) and not as W-2 payments to relatives. I would like to make donations but not if any part of it becomes a handout when there are so many serving ones living in poverty.
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Old 10-19-2018, 09:56 PM   #605
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Default Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

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I would think that Tim Graver is Ray Graver's son?
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Tim Graver is Ray Graver’s son and is married to Benson Phillips’ daughter.
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:02 PM   #606
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Well my friend, it seems you have more up-to-date on information regarding The Living Stream Ministry's financial dealings than any one of this forum. You can bet pretty much everything that if the Lees you have listed are indeed direct relatives of Witness Lee, than none of them have to lift a finger...they just sit back and collect a check every month.

As far as a "service in exchange for payment"...my informed understanding is the Witness Lee's direct relatives are entitled to reap the benefits of The Acting God, Minister of the Age.
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:02 AM   #607
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Default Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

Is there anything wrong that descendants of Witness Lee are entitled to receive royalty payments from LSM? He founded LSM and all published materials are his Intellectual Property including the methodology of FTT. He reserved the rights to distribute the income earned from all the sale proceeding to his next generations.
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Old 10-23-2018, 09:12 AM   #608
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Default Re: Leaders of the Lord's Recovery

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Is there anything wrong that descendants of Witness Lee are entitled to receive royalty payments from LSM? He founded LSM and all published materials are his Intellectual Property including the methodology of FTT. He reserved the rights to distribute the income earned from all the sale proceeding to his next generations.
Witness Lee "wrote" his books using editors, typists, transcribers, and printing presses with the offerings of the saints. I don't think he had any "rights" here to royalties. LSM robs the LC's.

Why is it that WL could "stand on the shoulders of others" -- translate that to mean steal his ideas from others' books -- and then sue others for copyright infringement should they do the same.

Doesn't sound very Christian to me. Thank the Lord that none of the Apostles felt as he did. In fact, Paul said he was not like others, "peddling the word of God." (2 Cor 2.17)
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:10 PM   #609
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Default Re: Bill Mallon Sums Up Deviation of Witness Lee

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http://www.Lordsrecovery.us/Obeisanc...toDivision.pdf


The governing vision of two of the five elders in Anaheim 1987-1989

When Witness Lee had begun the “Lord's new move” in the local churches, you, Minoru, were to come under a severe test as an elder in Anaheim. Would you stand one with the elders in your locality according to the vision that governed the church from the beginning; or would you capitulate to a new and broadened view introduced to the churches under the leadership of Witness Lee?

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/BillMall...pDeviation.pdf

Bill Mallon, a former prominent elder tried, but in futility, to voice his concerns for what he saw happening at LSM and in the recovery. He said in 2006 to me,

“You will never know how completely astonished, shocked, and unnerved we were when WL put more and more things under Philip Lee’s responsibility. It was incredible and unbelievable from the get-go!”
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Old 11-22-2018, 12:40 PM   #610
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Default The Building and a Bride in the Bible

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...46&postcount=1

All were on board in this thread as Brother Lee received a full review from many and varied sources.
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Old 11-22-2018, 05:35 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...46&postcount=1

All were on board in this thread as Brother Lee received a full review from many and varied sources.
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Originally Posted by Igzy
Some of the things Lee taught I still believe, some I don't.
It wasn't Lee's teachings that I disagreed with. It was his practices. It was the authoritarian hierarchy that I objected too, with him at the top.

In fact, when push came shove, I was accused of "using Witness Lee's works to destroy Witness Lee's works," (that illogic made me go cross-eyed). The reason for that was that, I was highlighting sections of Witness Lee's books, and Nee's by the way, to disagree with the idea of the MOTA, or one man being the authority of the age. That seemed to me to violate the authority of Christ in my spirit.

Early on in the LC, at a conference, I got "The Vision." But eventually I got another vision. A week before I got the boot, in a frantic fanatical meeting, with zealots pumping their fists in the air, I saw that I was in a cult.

I kept boxes and boxes of Lee and Nee teachings, and LC material. The only problem I had with them was moving them around. It was the cult I had a problem with.
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