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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart.

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Old 07-08-2020, 11:02 PM   #1
Trapped
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Default Confessing Sins After Salvation?

Not sure if I'm going to explain this question very well, so bear with me.

What is the responsibility of a believer concerning sins they commit after salvation?

The first verse that comes to mind is 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

However, I have read three differing articles on that verse, all with completely different conclusions. One says this is regarding our initial salvation and he forgives the past sins committed pre-salvation. One says, essentially, that it means "if we are a person who has confessed that we are a sinner" then he will forgive ongoing sins and no need to keep confessing. One says this is ongoing continual confession regarding our continued sins after salvation.

The interpretation that we don't need to continue to confess is accused of being an "easy believism". The interpretation that says we do continually need to confess our sins is accused of being "works based" (i.e. if continued confession were required for maintaining right-standing with God, then we would then be earning our right-standing).

I have heard the flat statement "It is finished. The debt has been paid. No need to keep confessing."

I have heard "Keeping a clean slate by confessing is a matter of the reward."

I have heard "How can we be required to confess every sin after salvation? What if we forget a sin?"

I have heard "Of course we need to confess, otherwise we abuse His grace."

Here is an example of one stance, saying we can never lose fellowship or right standing with God because the death of Christ was once for all time:
https://mattmcmillenministries.com/c...ship-with-god/

Thoughts?

P.S. to keep this LC-related, I believe WL taught we need to continually confess to "keep a clear sky" before the Lord. I also believe he taught that when we sin, God essentially turns away from us and gives us the cold shoulder until we confess, and even then He may bide His time before restoring a free-flowing relationship. That is what is behind my question, but I don't really want a dissection of WL's teaching, but want to know what you think Biblically.
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Old 07-09-2020, 05:51 AM   #2
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Default Re: Confessing Sins After Salvation?

This is a point of contention among Christians.

I believe like Apostle Paul that we should actively seek to have a conscience void of offense towards both God and man. John instructs the church to confess our sons. Many teachers today support this view, not continually confessing old sins, but those which occur that trouble our conscience.

I have been confronted by others because of these views. One older couple strongly declared that we never need to confess our sins, as they have forever been paid for on the cross. They said definitively that our own responsibility is now to worship Him continually. Confessing sins as Christians to them was anathema.
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Old 07-09-2020, 06:38 AM   #3
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Default Re: Confessing Sins After Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Not sure if I'm going to explain this question very well, so bear with me.

What is the responsibility of a believer concerning sins they commit after salvation?

Ohio is right.

I Cor. 3 gives the full context for these two important verses:
1 Corinthians 3:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


So there is eternal salvation that is the bedrock of the Christian Faith. Then there is “man’s work”. There is the judgment seat of Christ.

To me, like many matters of the faith, this is not something for which you want to take someone else’s word. Be convinced in your own mind and heart. This is why you have a living and abiding walk with the Lord. Another pesky verse:

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin.

I know this verse because my Mother quoted it to me as a child, many, many times. Her words still echo today. This verse activates your conscience. This verse makes you responsible for your own behavior and can be a showstopper. I speak from experience! There are sins, and there is the right thing to do. Christians are on the hook for doing the right thing. Failure to do the right thing is sin. WLee tore the book of James out of his Bible! This could explain a lot.

So. Don’t take my word for it, (but you could take my Mother’s word for it.)

Nell
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Old 07-09-2020, 08:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: Confessing Sins After Salvation?

Good topic Trapped. I think it might be helpful to take a look back at the various offerings depicted in the Old Testament, specifically Leviticus. The sin offering was an offering for sin. The whole burnt offering was an offering of perfection. The sin offering was symbolic of Christ taking upon himself the sin of the whole world, which is the sin nature passed down through Adam. Christ bore the penalty of our inherited sin nature upon the cross ("it is finished"), of which the sin offering was a type. The whole burnt offering was a type or symbol of the perfect life that Christ led during his time on earth.

Carrying this through to the New Testiment:

But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God...for by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (Hebrews 10:12,14)

To sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word (Ephesians 5:26)

Christ's death on the cross was a once-for-all, "single sacrifice for sins". Yet, like the priests who had to wash their hands and feet before every sacrifice, the confessing our sins is a continual thing. Not sure if this helps, but this is what came to mind when I read your question.
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: Confessing Sins After Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Christ's death on the cross was a once-for-all, "single sacrifice for sins". Yet, like the priests who had to wash their hands and feet before every sacrifice, the confessing our sins is a continual thing. Not sure if this helps, but this is what came to mind when I read your question.
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I'm thinking that this issue probably arose with young believers who were constantly guilty for their past sins. They had believed in the Lord, were cleansed by His precious blood, yet the accuser would rehash old sins, and the young ones would not "feel" saved or forgiven. So others then would have to constantly remind them that once they repented and had their sins forgiven, they did not need to again repent for those sins. Yes, that is true, but then why would John write as he did in chapter one of his epistle for sins not yet repented of?
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Old 07-09-2020, 05:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: Confessing Sins After Salvation?

I'm going to ask a rhetorical question here and then share my thoughts accompanied by my experience.

How do you all handle your sin problems? Do you just shrug them off? Or do you reflect on what you said or what you thought or what you did and repent?

I can't shrug off a sin and be so arrogant because "I'm forever forgiven and all my sins are washed away" ..end of story. It is true all my sins are forgiven AND washed in the Blood of Jesus.

But when I do sin, The Holy Spirit does convict me. I repent, cleanse myself in the Blood and move on. Sometimes I have to apologize. Other times I have to have a talk with the Lord about my attitude. I confess here..sometimes I need an attitude adjustment. But my attitude is a lot better these days, thanks to God's Word living and operating in me.

I do have a sidebar funny to share. Every weekend I get together with some friends and we have dinner followed by playing a game. We often play a "Mexican train" domino game. It's a lot of fun. But I lose a lot! Darn! A few weeks back, when we were grabbing our dominoes. I picked an awful hand and I gave into temptation. While no one was looking I threw the worst domino I had and picked a new one. I knew I was doing wrong but I was so frustrated!!! Well guess what? I ended up picking up a WORST domino!! You think the LORD didn't see what I was doing?? I apologized to Him for giving into temptation. I did not say anything to anyone about it. But a few weeks later I confessed to my friends in a conversation we were having about our weakness and imperfections. Boy did they LAUGH when I told them what I had done.

More often than not, I don't have a problem with temptation. Praying for others, giving Thanks daily, Praising the Lord, Worshipping Him, Glorifying Him, Speaking God's Word into me, studying, and applying the Blood of Jesus daily is truly transforming and renewing my mind. But now and then I slip.

What I struggle with the most though is guilt. The accuser of the brethren can do a number on me if I let my guard down. I have to remind myself that I've overcome my past by the Blood of the Lamb and by the Word of my testimony. That's why reviewing what the power of the Blood of Jesus does, adjusting the full armour of God I wear, reminding myself what the purpose of wearing the helmet of Salvation is for, (which is to protect my mind), reminding myself my loins are held together by the belt of Truth. The Truth which is Jesus, secures me. The shield of Righteousness protects my heart and stops the fiery arrows of the devil. The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God and that is what I/we use to ward off the enemy and his minions. Our shoes are for walking and walking in the Spirit. This is how we become strong in the Lord and in His Mighty Power.

We have to remember we are not fighting against flesh and blood but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

All of these scriptures which I hold dear and near to my heart are found in Ephesians 6 just in case some might not know or remember where they are.

God bless us all and hold us near and dear to Him during these trying times.

Carol
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Old 07-11-2020, 07:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Confessing Sins After Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
I'm going to ask a rhetorical question here and then share my thoughts accompanied by my experience.

How do you all handle your sin problems? Do you just shrug them off? Or do you reflect on what you said or what you thought or what you did and repent?

I can't shrug off a sin and be so arrogant because "I'm forever forgiven and all my sins are washed away" ..end of story. It is true all my sins are forgiven AND washed in the Blood of Jesus.

But when I do sin, The Holy Spirit does convict me. I repent, cleanse myself in the Blood and move on. Sometimes I have to apologize. Other times I have to have a talk with the Lord about my attitude. I confess here..sometimes I need an attitude adjustment. But my attitude is a lot better these days, thanks to God's Word living and operating in me.

I do have a sidebar funny to share. Every weekend I get together with some friends and we have dinner followed by playing a game. We often play a "Mexican train" domino game. It's a lot of fun. But I lose a lot! Darn! A few weeks back, when we were grabbing our dominoes. I picked an awful hand and I gave into temptation. While no one was looking I threw the worst domino I had and picked a new one. I knew I was doing wrong but I was so frustrated!!! Well guess what? I ended up picking up a WORST domino!! You think the LORD didn't see what I was doing?? I apologized to Him for giving into temptation. I did not say anything to anyone about it. But a few weeks later I confessed to my friends in a conversation we were having about our weakness and imperfections. Boy did they LAUGH when I told them what I had done.

More often than not, I don't have a problem with temptation. Praying for others, giving Thanks daily, Praising the Lord, Worshipping Him, Glorifying Him, Speaking God's Word into me, studying, and applying the Blood of Jesus daily is truly transforming and renewing my mind. But now and then I slip.

What I struggle with the most though is guilt. The accuser of the brethren can do a number on me if I let my guard down. I have to remind myself that I've overcome my past by the Blood of the Lamb and by the Word of my testimony. That's why reviewing what the power of the Blood of Jesus does, adjusting the full armour of God I wear, reminding myself what the purpose of wearing the helmet of Salvation is for, (which is to protect my mind), reminding myself my loins are held together by the belt of Truth. The Truth which is Jesus, secures me. The shield of Righteousness protects my heart and stops the fiery arrows of the devil. The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God and that is what I/we use to ward off the enemy and his minions. Our shoes are for walking and walking in the Spirit. This is how we become strong in the Lord and in His Mighty Power.

We have to remember we are not fighting against flesh and blood but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

All of these scriptures which I hold dear and near to my heart are found in Ephesians 6 just in case some might not know or remember where they are.

God bless us all and hold us near and dear to Him during these trying times.

Carol
Thanks for sharing - that was a great accounting of your experience, the working of the indwelling Spirit and the power of the blood!

I am convinced that God's focus on us is not sin at all. He uses phrases like "as far as the east is from the west" to describe how far He has removed sin from us. Also phrases like throw "sins into the deepest part of the sea," "I will remember no more," etc. He has done a 1000% thorough work in Christ to remove our sin. Why? Because He loves us so very much and simply wants us to always come to Him without hindrance. It is remarkable to us that this is what He's done, but His word makes it very clear - He doesn't have a sin focus with us and neither should we.

Look, He know where we are, our make-up, our thoughts and the flesh we carry with us. And He knows we are swimming in a cesspool of a world, and walking by faith. He knows our true situation and who we are - children of the Most High with a fleshly earth-suit on. (And even this is meant for our good!)

But the enemy is always right there telling us "How could all that be true . . . look at what you've done!" We don't have to give the accusation any attention and immediately just turn to look at Him! (and perhaps quickly remind the enemy of his destiny)

Praise ye the Lord HALLELUJAH!
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Old 07-12-2020, 06:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: Confessing Sins After Salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
But when I do sin, The Holy Spirit does convict me. I repent, cleanse myself in the Blood and move on. Sometimes I have to apologize. Other times I have to have a talk with the Lord about my attitude. I confess here..sometimes I need an attitude adjustment. But my attitude is a lot better these days, thanks to God's Word living and operating in me.
...Carol
Excellent point, Carol. Well said.

The Holy Spirit is clean. Righteous. The Holy Spirit does not tolerate sin. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin. The God's enemy accuses. It's important not to confuse the accusations of the enemy with the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

This is not the same as Christ dying for Sin, once for all. There's Sin and there are sins. How do we know the difference?

If you sin, you're guilty. You know it. In your conscience, if you have any kind of walk with the Lord at all, you know it. As Carol described...she knew there was a problem and she knew what to do about it. She confessed. She repented.

Another way to know the difference: James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The New Testament standard is higher.

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Old 07-12-2020, 08:04 AM   #9
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Default Re: Confessing Sins After Salvation?

I like how the Lord tells Peter that only his feet need washing in John 13:9.

Quote:
“Never shall You wash my feet!” Peter told Him. Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with Me.” “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not only my feet, but my hands and my head as well!” Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean."
As we walk in this world, He has already made us clean, but we will pick up the "dust" of the world on our feet. If we allow Him, He will wash our feet, and we can also wash each other's feet. So I don't know if this is the same as some apparently "serious" and egregious sin we do, but I suspect we often make a much bigger deal of sin than it actually is - because He already paid the price for our total forgiveness!
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Old 07-13-2020, 04:08 PM   #10
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I also believe WL taught that when we sin, God essentially turns away from us and gives us the cold shoulder until we confess, and even then He may bide His time before restoring a free-flowing relationship.
I just want to say here, that in reading WL's commentary on Jesus' response to Mary and Martha, at Lazarus' death, and his commentary on Joseph and his response to his brothers on their visits to Egypt looking for food.... The character of both Jesus and Joseph as portrayed bt WL express this coldness, a snippy, ugly, self-righteous, unloving and unappealing attitude in them, is really off-putting. I would not respect Joseph if he had behaved and intended what WL describes. Nor would I feel safe or open with a Jesus who would handle his friend's grieving for their brother's death, and confused why Jesus came so late, by delivering such a cold and domineering response. (Telling them not to 'think', was also using this account to peddle WL's theological distortions) . These commentaries reflect the attitude described by trapped, and are, none of them, reflective of God's character or the character of a Godly person, (in my example, Joseph).

If I was to beleive WL's portrayal, I would be very put-off both Jesus and Joseph. There are probably many more examples, in WL's writings, those are just two I looked at while figuring things out. WL placed his own experience of people in his life, over the meaning of Scripture, and went from there. Sadly he was shaped by some people with ugly and unapproachable characters, it seems. It gains a solid YUCK... get me away from that..... Response from me!

God does not hold a childish, angry GRUDGE against us when we get it wrong, one he continues to punish us for while afterwards as he's too offended to get over it quickly even after we acknowledge and repent. That would be a 'sin' on his part, and we all acknowledge He is sinless!


Interestingly, Jo S described this attitude of 'rejecting children till they repent' as normal parenting too.. Cal caught him on that and rightfully so.....that is damaging parenting. Reject the behavior and not the child! Being accountable for bad behavior should never bring the child's whole worth into question. That just fosters passive aggressive and other dysfunctional patterns in one subjected to such parenting in their childhood. That's my opinion set for the day anyway!!!
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Old 07-14-2020, 06:43 AM   #11
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.......The character of both Jesus and Joseph as portrayed bt WL express this coldness, a snippy, ugly, self-righteous, unloving and unappealing attitude in them, is really off-putting. I would not respect Joseph if he had behaved and intended what WL describes.
Could it be that WL as well WN brought a LOT of their own cultural upbringing into the interpretation of God's Word? When we consider how racism is on the forefront of today's news, are there not Christians who now and throughout the centuries been racist? Imho, much of racism is cultural at the root. It's easy to say "In Christ there is no Jew or Greek' but not so easy to practice the TRUTH.

I suspect that WL brought in much of his cultural and possibly family upbringing into his ministry, thus distorting some of God's Precious Loving Truthful Word. Did WL ever emphasize Christ's LOVE aside from the initial 'love bombing' to get people into 'the church'?

I know in the early days when I was there he emphasized LIFE. Nothing wrong with that but what is Christ's LIFE without Christ's LOVE for humanity and Love for one another? It is Christ's LOVE that gives us Christ's LIFE in us, the HOPE of Glory.
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Old 07-14-2020, 07:02 AM   #12
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And what He has shown me these past 20 years is that it all flows out of His love for us! It is the "why" and foundation of what He purposes and does.

I think WL may have recognized some of the error, when toward the end of his life told the LC saints that love was missing. This is a big thing, when the main ingredient is absent!
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Old 07-14-2020, 08:49 AM   #13
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And what He has shown me these past 20 years is that it all flows out of His love for us! It is the "why" and foundation of what He purposes and does.

I think WL may have recognized some of the error, when toward the end of his life told the LC saints that love was missing. This is a big thing, when the main ingredient is absent!
WL did realize that many LC's had become loveless Laodicea, but he took no responsibility for that. Had he owned that, WL would have warned his closest followers, the Blendeds, and affected his ministry. He never did.

Obviously he passed none of that concern on to them, and rather all the blame upon the elders of the LC's and the saints, supposedly because they had not supported his ministry absolutely enough. When BP, RK, and MC came to the Midwest, filing lawsuits, stealing church assets, excommunicating brothers, dividing homes, and destroying LC's, there was NO LOVE, none at all, only allegiance to LSM and loyalty to WL.
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Old 07-14-2020, 09:14 AM   #14
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WL did realize that many LC's had become loveless Laodicea, but he took no responsibility for that. Had he owned that, WL would have warned his closest followers, the Blendeds, and affected his ministry. He never did.

Obviously he passed none of that concern on to them, and rather all the blame upon the elders of the LC's and the saints, supposedly because they had not supported his ministry absolutely enough. When BP, RK, and MC came to the Midwest, filing lawsuits, stealing church assets, excommunicating brothers, dividing homes, and destroying LC's, there was NO LOVE, none at all, only allegiance to LSM and loyalty to WL.
Agreed - too little too late! The words were nice, but little to nothing in the way of actual works of love to back-up those words.

I remember nearly 20 years ago doing a hike by myself and talking to the Lord. I got a real impression that He cared very little about my sin in our conversation - He didn't want me to look at it! I remember then standing up in a gathering here and telling saints about it, loudly declaring "He cares nothing about sin - NOTHING!" I believe that's true, because His work is so complete in Christ for the purpose of immediately bringing us back into fellowship with Him.

That was a pretty strong statement for me to make, and one that the enemy likes to "throw through" accusing thoughts about into my mind. But let me say that the aspect of sin I think God does care about is its affect on us - it damages us, clouds our thinking, fills us with doubt, and tends to make us alienated in our minds towards Him. I believe that's what He hates, and we should just be quick to turn to Him about all of it - since He's made that possible in Christ! ("Daddy, I'm sorry, I broke it again . . . do You still love me?")
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