Back to Evangelical Christianity Questions

[Dave]

I have a few questions which I have thought about after spending some time on this forum. Realizing that while most of us have left the LC on this forum many individuals have still retained evangelical fundamental Christian theology and practice in another Christian group. Here are the questions:
1. After leaving the LC what was your entry point back into evangelical Christianity i.e. was it a small group, large group or evangelical fundamentalist denomination—you don’t have to name it…and why?
2. Are you still involved with your entry point evangelical group or denomination which led you back into evangelical Christianity?
3. Were there any practices or doctrines from the Local Church that you carried with you to the evangelical church group or denomination?
4. What were your primary reasons for leaving the Local Church? e.g. doctrinal disagreement, Biblical practices of the LC, lawsuits, mismanagement of the LC, etc.

[OBW]

My wife and I left because we needed connection that the LCM could not provide. We went straight to a Bible church very close by. It was relatively small — only about 350 — and was looking for a preacher. The reason was that it had been, and continued to be led by people trained at Dallas Theological Seminary which meant it was very similar in base doctrine (after you get rid of ground, remnant and other peculiar theologies of the LCM).

While we are no longer with that Bible church, we are still with a Bible church and consider both excellent groups.

We unwittingly carried some of the peculiar doctrines of the LCM with us, however, we have learned to spot them when they cause problem and review them in light of the broader knowledge and wisdom they provide.

We were getting nothing from the LCM. We proved our lack of importance to them when we got only one call from one person some weeks after our last meeting. They didn't and couldn't care about the ones who were struggling. Only the 99 who hadn't wandered off. They had no idea what it was to shepherd a flock. Only to command an army (one of the poorest metaphors of the church to hitch virtually all your teaching to).

[Dave]

DTS has a very different dispensational theory than WL/WN so I am surprised you might go that way.

My experience with the LC was tied into my experience with Christ. When I was attending Bible College I was heavily into WN’s “The Normal Christian Life”, “Changed into his Likeness” etc and I saw the Christian life as something very different from what I was experiencing in the AOG at the time. It appeared to me that the AOG was shallow whereas WN took me beyond the normal experience of any denominational Church. When I ran into Karl Hammond in Santa Cruz and what he shared as the editor of the Normal Christian Church life and the association of Witness Lee with WN I was beguiled. My time in the Santa Cruz LC was great enjoying the Lord, witnessing on campus etc. When I went to Detroit I ran into the brick wall of Ron Kangas and the Anaheim connection who over time made everything so complicated whether it was enjoying Christ or practicing the Church life. Ft. Lauderdale was a mess when we migrated with all kinds of problems. It’s no wonder that so many left to include Ron Kangas to Anaheim. MP was on a takeover mission which Awareness experienced first hand.

After leaving the LC I still believed that aspects of the LC were the best of the Christian life that was available (confirmed by my involvement in other denominations afterward) and that there was nothing in Christianity which could even match the spirituality I had experienced in the LC. Having been the AOG I had experienced speaking in tongues etc. Since the LC was not a viable option anymore (also after trying other Christian options) based on my experience with how it evolved I focused more on my work than trying to find a Christian group in which to expand my Christian experience. It didn’t mean that I abandoned Christian thought.. However, I began to wonder if maybe it was the Christian life or trying to attain what was perceived as the normal Christian life which was at the heart of the problem.

I eventually concluded that it was the perceived normal Christian life or the attempt to attain a level of spirituality in the Christian life and eventually aspects of Christianity itself which was at the center of the problem. WL was in part correct about the problems with Christianity (i.e. divisions over doctrine, leaders, practices etc) but what he didn’t take into consideration was that he was also part of the problem. So it seems that inherently it is a problem from the doctrines to the Bible itself as well as the structure of the Christian religion or most religions which are at the heart of the problem, at least that has become my viewpoint. I just don't think I need to check out any more Christian denominations or groups but I do read and study the Bible regularly because there are some interesting aspects in the Bible related to how our society has developed.

Yes, I am a Unitarian Christian but they are not arm twisting anyone to get involved in a religion. There is freedom to practice or not practice a personal religion as long as it doesn't violate the freedom of others to express themselves. There is also the social activism which I believe ultimately was the underlying important message of Jesus. There is no wonder why Gandhi carried the Sermon on the Mount with him most of his life.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Dave

DTS has a very different dispensational theory than WL/WN so I am surprised you might go that way.

Well, at this point, I am not a very good dispensationalist. I am convinced that so much of the end-times stuff we hear now is relatively new stuff and new stuff in terms of Christianity is seldom very good. It either was from the beginning and can probably be found in a long history of writings (even if not the "in" writings at some times) or it is new stuff. Things like dispensationalism or ground. Novel ideas dredged up without precedence.

I honestly think that too many think that getting all the doctrines right is what it is all about. With a few exceptions, doctrines get you nothing. Obedience, faith, righteousness, justice, etc., are much more important. I don't mind that there are those who take care of knowing the doctrines. But it does few of us much good to know most of them. We are better off reading the gospels and understanding what we are to do rather than figuring out what we are to know.

I realize that makes me a poor evangelical. But when I consider what doctrines I do hold to (even if more loosely than I used to) they look more like the evangelical doctrines. So here I am. I just can't get so excited about too many of them.

And I think that getting into Bible study after Bible study to learn more about them is mostly a waste of time. When you read what Jesus said to hear his command to us, it is much easier than when you read it to figure out the nuances of every word (in an inerrant manner) and try to get your doctrines "perfect."

[OBW]

Dave,

Following on to the above, I think that spirituality in the way that Lee and the LCM taught us is a trap. It causes us to think that spirituality is the key to life. But it is not. It is faith and obedience.

Yes, if spirituality is it, then much of Christianity is no better than, or even worse than the LCM.

But it is not, so when I changed yardsticks, I found Christianity to be very acceptable and even commendable. I even have less problem with the RCC than I used to. (Not saying I have no problems with them. But I do not treat them a virtually non-church. Even the "7 churches are the history of the Church" approach to Revelation 2 and 3 has to admit Thyatira as a church. But so many do not. They dismiss them as if we are the ones with the right to remove its lampstand.)

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

Dave,

Following on to the above, I think that spirituality in the way that Lee and the LCM taught us is a trap. It causes us to think that spirituality is the key to life. But it is not. It is faith and obedience.

Yes, if spirituality is it, then much of Christianity is no better than, or even worse than the LCM.

But it is not, so when I changed yardsticks, I found Christianity to be very acceptable and even commendable. I even have less problem with the RCC than I used to. (Not saying I have no problems with them. But I do not treat them a virtually non-church. Even the "7 churches are the history of the Church" approach to Revelation 2 and 3 has to admit Thyatira as a church. But so many do not. They dismiss them as if we are the ones with the right to remove its lampstand.)

Wow. That is some great stuff you are talking about. Let me list the most important as you have noted. I could be wrong so correct me.
1. Faith
2. Obedience
3. Spirituality
4. Doctrine
5.
6.

When we look at Philadelphia we look at faithfulness so I think you have it right. They weren't wrapped up in doctrine as most of the others listed...they loved others... Note that Ephesians "...abandoned the love you had at first..." Smyrna "...Do not fear what you are about to suffer...Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life" Pergamum "...eat food sacrificed to idols and practice fornication...hold to the teachings of the Nicolaitans." Thyatira "...tolerate that woman Jezebel, who call herself a prophet and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice fornication and to eat food sacrificed to idols." Sardis "...you have a name of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death..." Philadelphia "...I know your works. Look, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have little power, and yet you have kept my word and not denied my name....I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." Laodicea "...you are neither cold nor hot...because you are luke warm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spit you our of my mouth."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Dave

Realizing that while most of us have left the LC on this forum many individuals have still retained evangelical fundamental Christian theology and practice in another Christian group. Here are the questions:
1. After leaving the LC what was your entry point back into evangelical Christianity i.e. was it a small group, large group or evangelical fundamentalist denomination—you don’t have to name it…and why?
2. Are you still involved with your entry point evangelical group or denomination which led you back into evangelical Christianity?
3. Were there any practices or doctrines from the Local Church that you carried with you to the evangelical church group or denomination?
4. What were your primary reasons for leaving the Local Church? e.g. doctrinal disagreement, Biblical practices of the LC, lawsuits, mismanagement of the LC, etc.

1. It was a small group. Specifically Steve Isitt and a brother from the Church in Bellevue I used to serve with would come and visit my home many Saturday nights. I wouldn't say it was very spiritual, but my soul was being shepherded. This eventually migrated to other small group meetings before my family and I began meeting with Calvary Baptist Church and currently with East Renton Community Church.
As far as local church practices, calling on the Lord (one time only) and singing scripture that I learned while a churchkid.
As reasons for leaving the LC, it was more practice and practical related.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Terry

1. It was a small group. Specifically Steve Isitt and a brother from the Church in Bellevue I used to serve with would come and visit my home many Saturday nights. I wouldn't say it was very spiritual, but my soul was being shepherded. This eventually migrated to other small group meetings before my family and I began meeting with Calvary Baptist Church and currently with East Renton Community Church.
As far as local church practices, calling on the Lord (one time only) and singing scripture that I learned while a churchkid.
As reasons for leaving the LC, it was more practice and practical related.

Terry, thanks. That is very insightful because I know Steve has had problems over the years with the LC but you were fortunate to have someone like him helping you through the process of leaving the LC. I don't think most people have had that kind of attention. Great stuff!! It's exactly what I was hoping for. What has helped us get through leaving the LC? Where was the exit point?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Dave

Terry, thanks. That is very insightful because I know Steve has had problems over the years with the LC but you were fortunate to have someone like him helping you through the process of leaving the LC. I don't think most people have had that kind of attention. Great stuff!! It's exactly what I was hoping for. What has helped us get through leaving the LC? Where was the exit point?

Don't get the wrong idea. Steve is one to be directing people to the local churches. (Unfortunately these brothers, sisters, etc are received as being tainted due to knowing Steve. Guilty by association.) Very high on the ministry LSM publishes. I on the other hand grew tiresome of the hypocrisy. LSM publishes these books. Brothers and sisters in the local churches disseminate these books, but the teachings don't translate into healthy practices.
I was wanting a churchlife void of an organized ministry.
I do think many raised in the local churches as I was, associate Christianity with the local churches and have been conditioned against non-LSM fellowship. As if LSM fellowship is so high and all other Christian fellowship results in spiritual malnutrition.

[HBJ]

After leaving the LC in '80, I still had a desire for God, but had an internal issue about 'Christianity'due to the LC. I would only go to non-denominational churches. I didn't find one I clicked with. Eventually I stopped trying. For 8 yrs I didn't seek God. In 1988 the Lord stirred my heart and I started seeking again.

I found a church in '88 and have been there since. A Foursquare Church where the Pastor is a dear man who preaches the word. I don't agree with everything, but it is minor. I feel when saved we get all of Jesus/God in our hearts. The Holy Spirit baptism i.e. pentecostalism is some thing the AG and Foursquare feel is separate and I don't, but it is a minor difference not worth the debate.

My issue to this day is that I shudder when the book of Ephesians is preached about. I have so many internal set points from the LC, I unfortunately try to avoid the book, and continually ask the Lord to help me to see it His way.

My primary reason for leaving the LC was their arrogant attitude towards Christianity. I have so many dear non LC relatives who have been Jesus towards me, I had to leave in '80.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by HBJ

My primary reason for leaving the LC was their arrogant attitude towards Christianity. I have so many dear non LC relatives who have been Jesus towards me, I had to leave in '80.

This makes your discussion about trying to keep away from denominations almost funny, but also too common among those of us who leave. We leave for various reasons but so often it takes time (even years) to be rid of the LC positions related to even the reasons we left.

You have now been out a long time. Even longer than me (87). I went immediately to another place and was there for many years. But there were internal struggles with the old LC teachings for a long time. I think I am finally leaving them behind me, just shy of 29 years later.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by HBJ

After leaving the LC in '80, I still had a desire for God, but had an internal issue about 'Christianity'due to the LC. I would only go to non-denominational churches. I didn't find one I clicked with. Eventually I stopped trying. For 8 yrs I didn't seek God. In 1988 the Lord stirred my heart and I started seeking again.

I found a church in '88 and have been there since. A Foursquare Church where the Pastor is a dear man who preaches the word. I don't agree with everything, but it is minor. I feel when saved we get all of Jesus/God in our hearts. The Holy Spirit baptism i.e. pentecostalism is some thing the AG and Foursquare feel is separate and I don't, but it is a minor difference not worth the debate.

My issue to this day is that I shudder when the book of Ephesians is preached about. I have so many internal set points from the LC, I unfortunately try to avoid the book, and continually ask the Lord to help me to see it His way.

My primary reason for leaving the LC was their arrogant attitude towards Christianity. I have so many dear non LC relatives who have been Jesus towards me, I had to leave in '80.

Welcome to Alt Views HBJ. What bothers you about Ephesians? What are the "internal set points" that make you shudder? Maybe talking about it will help set you free. I remember Lee preaching on Ephesians extensively prior to 1980. I don't think the book was written to or limited to Lee or his group.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HBJ

My primary reason for leaving the LC was their arrogant attitude towards Christianity. I have so many dear non LC relatives who have been Jesus towards me, I had to leave in '80.

I see HBJ that you were in the LC for about the same time I was. You from early teens and me from late teens. I left around 1980 too. Or got the boot for not accepting Lee as the apostle, oracle, and such, on the earth.

Growing up in the Southern Baptist I didn't think much of Christianity before the LC. And the LC didn't help much. I too left seeking God for quite awhile. Then something came over me and I came back. But with quite a critical eye, searching also for just what it was I was believing in. Been doing that ever since. Lee use to talk about the pearl being created from an irritant in the oyster. I've got such an irritant.

But as a result I ain't much fer church. Every time I get involved I upset the congregant.

But doesn't stop me from learning about and studying Christianity and the Bible from all angles. I'm still hungry.

And hope you are too.

Welcome to Local Church Discussions - Alternative Views. Hope to hear more from you.