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Old 08-23-2020, 09:04 AM   #1
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Default His Purpose - Christ in us

This morning I had a particularly good time in the word with song and prayer, and enjoyed His presence, encouragement and joy in me. These words came to me and I thought to share. It is a simple, one sentence statement of God's purpose and I hope this blesses you.

"God loved us so much that while we were enemies He came and died to rescue us
and put the Spirit of His Son into us to transform us into His image."
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Old 08-28-2020, 07:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: His Purpose - Christ in us

I read this in a devotional this morning, and thought to post it: "The perfect church is the church that has the love of God flowing in all the imperfect members toward all the other imperfect members."
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Old 08-28-2020, 06:04 PM   #3
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I read this in a devotional this morning, and thought to post it: "The perfect church is the church that has the love of God flowing in all the imperfect members toward all the other imperfect members."
Everyone is uncomely, and we are all instructed to heap more abundant honor on the uncomely ones (i.e. everyone)!
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Old 08-29-2020, 07:50 AM   #4
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Everyone is uncomely, and we are all instructed to heap more abundant honor on the uncomely ones (i.e. everyone)!
Yes! As I go on, I generally view myself as less and other members in the body as more. I guess that's just part of being shown how weak I really am!

Here's something from that same devotional for today: "What is the perfect church? It is a forgiving church. It is a long-suffering church. It is an enduring, patient and caring church that is receiving all the failing, sinful, ungodly people who have Christ in them. There is forgiveness up to seventy times seven. And there is love and there is mercy."
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Old 08-29-2020, 09:39 AM   #5
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Default Re: His Purpose - Christ in us

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
This morning I had a particularly good time in the word with song and prayer, and enjoyed His presence, encouragement and joy in me. These words came to me and I thought to share. It is a simple, one sentence statement of God's purpose and I hope this blesses you.

"God loved us so much that while we were enemies He came and died to rescue us
and put the Spirit of His Son into us to transform us into His image."
Thank you Sons to Glory! This encourages me to seek God's presence more.
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Old 08-29-2020, 10:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: His Purpose - Christ in us

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"What is the perfect church?

It is a forgiving church. It is a long-suffering church. It is an enduring, patient and caring church that is receiving all the failing, sinful, ungodly people who have Christ in them. There is forgiveness up to seventy times seven. And there is love and there is mercy."
I love this. It is much more in line with our Lord's definition of "Be ye perfect as My Father." (Mt 5.48)

The definition of a "perfect" church has to accommodate lots of imperfection.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:55 AM   #7
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I love this. It is much more in line with our Lord's definition of "Be ye perfect as My Father." (Mt 5.48)

The definition of a "perfect" church has to accommodate lots of imperfection.
Amen! In that section of Matthew 5, being perfect is in the context of loving others. Love is the foundation of it all, and how the Lord said we will be known as being His.

Whenever I stray very far from the truth of His love as being the reason for all of it, He gently reminds me and brings me back! If only all of us would walk in this wonderful reality all the time. . . .
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Old 09-04-2020, 03:39 PM   #8
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I'm reading in Major Ian Thomas' book, "The Indwelling Life of Christ" and read this which I thought to post here.

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He was in the beginning with God and was God, and is God, and as the Creative Word all things were made by Him. When He came to this earth, however, He became a man in the fullest sense of the term, Man as God intended man to be. He behaved as God intended man to behave, walking day by day in that relationship to the Father which God had always intended should exist between man and Himself.

"I am the way, the truth and the life." (John 14:6) When Jesus said, "I am the way," He was telling us, "I am how you can become a Christian, for I died for you." When He said, "I am the life," He was telling us, "I am how you can be the Christian you have become." Jesus is the Truth about the Way and the Truth about the Life.
I saw something afresh while reading this, that Jesus was (and is) the prototype for us. And through His life in us, He will do all the wonderful things He has promised us - WOW! The Christian life in its every day reality is impossible without Christ in us, our only hope of glory!
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Old 09-11-2020, 07:54 AM   #9
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Three passages came to me this morning: "and the word was God." "The Word became flesh." "a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies . . . it produces much grain." (John 1:1 & 14, 12:24)

TWO QUESTIONS WE SHOULD ASK:
1. What is the nature of The Word?
2. What is the nature of the many grains?

Isn't scripture amazing!?!?
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Old 10-04-2020, 11:27 AM   #10
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Read something this morning in Bill Freeman's daily devotional, "The Supplied Life" that I was struck with and thought to share:

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This universe is in a state of collapse because of Satan, sin, the flesh and the world, which have sought to disorient and damage God's creation. However, God became a man and came to this earth, not only to redeem us personally, but to secure a firm foothold in the universe to head it up and administrate it with Himself as Lord. When we say, "Jesus is Lord!" we are saying that He is Lord over all as a God-Man on the throne of this universe. He is the God-Man who glorified humanity in His own Person by giving a perfect sinless life. Then He was glorified in His body. First Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. This means when He came out of the grave, He was a resurrected Man. He was God, but He was equally man; and will remain a God-Man for eternity. He will never loose His manhood. He assumed it. He put it on, never to put it off. He took humanity to the throne and was seated there, and God made Him Lord and Christ in this universe.
In reading this I caught a little glimpse of "What is man that thou art mindful of him?" (Psalm 8:4) God created man in His likeness and image, but why? So man would be a good fit for God! God loves us so much, because He made us as vessels to contain just Him (as the old song goes)! Man is not just passing fancy of God . . . as Ephesians 2:10 says, "For we are his masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus unto good works."

Anybody else see this?
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:52 AM   #11
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Default Re: His Purpose - Christ in us

Read a verse in Galatians 3:19 I was impressed with, "Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come."

"Until the Seed . . . had come." This is Christ . . . who came as The Seed to get into us!! Wow! This verse so clearly states that it's not about the outward doing, but rather His life growing IN us!
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Old 10-12-2020, 12:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: His Purpose - Christ in us

Had a wonderful time in this Sunday's gathering here in Scottsdale! The singing and sharing from different ones and the Lord's Table were just goooooood. For me it was a grand celebration of the freedom and the family that He has called us into.

Below is a linked video of a brother (1 of 6 who share regularly) who shared a 40 minute message on the first part of Philippians chapter two, that I had a prompting to share on here. It was just downright good, enjoyable and living - to hear in a fresh and simple way about us having the mind of Christ.

Enjoy! Let this Mind be In You
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Old 10-18-2020, 07:47 AM   #13
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This morning I read a wonderful passage in the Major Ian Thomas book, "The Indwelling Life of Christ" that I thought to share. (from chapter 30, "Your Life is a Miracle")

Quote:
Why do so few Christians enjoy this miraculous resurrection Life?

Because they are educated out of it. They are taught to repudiate the indwelling presence of a resurrected Lord, and instead are told to do their best for Jesus, to emulate His example, to flex their own spiritual muscles, to stand up and be counted, to clench their fist and throw out their chest.

They are taught everything except to repent and to recognize that you and I were created to be inhabited by our Maker. They are taught in prayer to beg and say "Please" instead of saying "Thank You" as they relax and rest in Christ.
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Old 10-18-2020, 02:19 PM   #14
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This morning I read a wonderful passage in Major Ian Thomas' book -- "They're taught everything except to repent and to recognize that you and I were created to be inhabited by our Maker. They're taught in prayer to beg and say 'Please' instead of saying 'Thank You' as they relax and rest in Christ."
I'm not impressed. There's a big hole there, like those found in the Nee and Lee "mystical" schools. They contrast the "earnest Christian" trying to be good, with the "enjoying Christians" who relax and rest in the "good land" of Christ.

But missing in the middle is the person of Christ himself. On both hands, the focus is on "you and I". Look at the first sentence from the quote: it's "you and I" that Major Ian Thomas is concerned with. The subject is self, not Christ. This focus on self is the set-up to self-delusion. That's why I call it the "mystical" school. It's all about your experience, so-called. And in the LC they violate common sense, violate scripture, violate basic human morality, if they can only follow the "sense of life" or the "flavor" that Lee left them with. What deception.

Now, not to judge your experience, or Major Thomas', but the teaching isn't for me. The entire NT up to Paul's epistles makes the unremitting case that the OT scripture was about the experiences of the Christ - Jesus the Nazarene. It's focused on a singular person, a singular title, a singular experience. Jesus is "the" Christ. It's not about the "earnest Christian" trying to do good, nor the "relaxing Christian" enjoying Christ, so-called. No, it's rather about the obedient, suffering, crucified, buried, resurrected, ascended and glorified Christ. If you don't see that, what's then your experience? What's your enjoyment?

Maybe you assume all that, but it's not stated, which I find dangerous. Look at what happened in the LC: a shell game. Follow the pea. Eventually the dupe is sure that they're looking at "Christ" but it's nothing of the sort.

Jesus taught, "Even as I obey the Father, so you should obey me" and "Even as the Father sent me, so do I send you" and "Even as I live because of the Father, so you live because of me." The "even as" part is so important - if you can't appreciate the first part of the equation, how can you possibly keep the second? The "even as" connects two equalities, two equivalents. If you don't focus on Jesus on earth, in full relation with the Father in heaven, how can you follow with any meaningful, reality-based relationship?

Instead, I continually see vain and imaginary 'Christs' being promoted. The LSM is poster child for this, but it's unfortunately not the only one. The error is common, the pit of self is wide and deep. Avoid it at all costs.
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:00 AM   #15
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I'm not impressed. There's a big hole there, like those found in the Nee and Lee "mystical" schools. They contrast the "earnest Christian" trying to be good, with the "enjoying Christians" who relax and rest in the "good land" of Christ.

But missing in the middle is the person of Christ himself. On both hands, the focus is on "you and I". Look at the first sentence from the quote: it's "you and I" that Major Ian Thomas is concerned with.
You are way, way off base here. How come you missed the "inhabited by our Maker" part?

"you and I were created to be inhabited by our Maker"
That is right there, but you claim that what is "missing in the middle is the person of Christ himself." The "our Maker" part IS Christ Himself,.... how come you missed it?

Lots of posts on this forum like this one show me that people read things here with Witness Lee glasses on and then proceed to rant vs. Witness Lee's teachings, regardless of what the post really says.
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Old 10-19-2020, 06:41 AM   #16
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"you and I were created to be inhabited by our Maker"[/B] That is right there, but you claim that what is "missing in the middle is the person of Christ himself." The "our Maker" part IS Christ Himself,.... how come you missed it?
I didn't miss it at all. But look at the context. Christ... our Maker... is just a prop, a foil. The focus is on "you and I", the Christian.... either struggling, or relaxing. The focus is on you, who are but dust and ashes, and even worse, it is on your "experience", which is even less tenable. And for the benefit of our friends from the LC who might be lurking, I add that that is Watchman Nee's MO. Focus on the mystical indwelling Christ. Enjoy him! Meanwhile, gross sin is tolerated and covered because, "We cover drunken Noah" etc.

And I do apologize for the rant. Guilty as charged. But you don't see Christ in his experience and enjoyment of the Father in heaven getting led down the primrose path of "mystical experience". No, he was guided by the word, a sure peg. And, as I repeated, and perhaps you missed, his experience was to be a template for ours. "Even as I obey the Father's commands, so you also must obey mine". Don't you think there's a relationship there, worth focusing on?

Then, and only then, is "Christ in you" and all the rest of it worth attention. But notice that instead the focus is either wholly or nearly wholly on "Christ in you". Christ here is a prop. Displayed then withdrawn.
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:34 PM   #17
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You are way, way off base here. How come you missed the "inhabited by our Maker" part?
The other thing I find so interesting about these discussions, is that the verses I cited are usually ignored, as they were in this case. So I'll repeat them.

"Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me." John 6:57

"If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love." John 15:10

Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." John 20:21

What I see is a pattern of equivalents: Jesus puts his relationship with the Father, then says the believer's relations with him are "Just as" or "even as" they are. So if the Lord Jesus obeys the Father, we obey him. Jesus lives on the Father (his food is in keeping his commands, cf John 4:34) so do we live on him. As the Father sent him, so he sends us.

The focus is not on us, it's on him. Peter preached this gospel, not of his (Peter's) enjoyment but on Jesus' resurrection. "Know ye that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified." Peter didn't get side-tracked by his "enjoyment" or "experience".

Now, you may think I'm conflating Major Ian Thomas with Witness Lee. But they sound a lot alike. To me the danger is the same. And the only protest to my noting this, comes from someone who ignores the substance of what I say. This only serves to convince me that perhaps I'm onto something here. They are bothered, but they ignore the word. The word shows us a relationship, beckons us to follow. Instead we get a generic "Christ in you". In this case, it seems that "Christ" is whatever you want it to be. How do you know that your "enjoyment" or "experience" is real? Jesus' was - the Father raised him from the dead, furnishing proof to all, for all time. Why then focus on your own? It seems rather untrustworthy. And why ignore the trustworthy revelation of God, as if it were not laid out here, if not in full, at least in part?
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:34 PM   #18
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You are way, way off base here. How come you missed the "inhabited by our Maker" part?
The other thing I find so interesting about these discussions, is that the verses I cited are usually ignored, as they were in this case. So I'll repeat them.

"Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me." John 6:57

"If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love." John 15:10

Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." John 20:21

What I see is a pattern of equivalents: Jesus notes some aspect of his relationship with the Father, then says the believer's relations with him are "Just as" or "even as" his are with the Father. So just as the Lord Jesus obeys the Father, we obey him. Jesus lives on the Father (his food is in keeping his commands, cf John 4:34) so do we live on him. As the Father sent him, so he sends us. How does this not represent a compelling pattern?

The focus in the gospels and Acts is not on us, it's on him. Peter preached this gospel, not of his (Peter's) enjoyment but on Jesus' resurrection. "Know ye that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified." Peter didn't get side-tracked by his own "enjoyment" or "experience". He was laser-focused on the resurrected Messiah.

And the epistles didn't leave this - they built on it. Nothing Paul did, that I can see, departed the "right hand of fellowship" of those that preceded him, including their gospels and their testimonies of Jesus.

Now, perhaps I'm conflating Major Ian Thomas with Witness Lee. But they sound a lot alike, and the danger's the same. And the only protest to my noting this, quoted above, comes from someone who ignores the substance of what was written, which only serves to reinforce the idea that perhaps I'm onto something. They're bothered, and they protest, but do so ignoring the word. Again, similar arguments were received in the LC -- ignore the substance of what was said.

The gospel word shows us a relationship, beckons us to follow. Instead we get a generic "Christ in you". In this case, it seems that "Christ" is whatever you want. How do you know that your "enjoyment" or "experience" is real? Jesus' was - the Father raised him from the dead, furnishing proof to all, for all time. Why then focus on your own ephemeral sensations? Your striving, your joy? It seems rather untrustworthy. And why ignore the trustworthy revelation of God, regarding the person, position, and experiences of Jesus the Son of God, Saviour of the world, as if it weren't laid out here, if not in full, at least in part?
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:08 PM   #19
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The other thing I find so interesting about these discussions, is that the verses I cited are usually ignored, as they were in this case. So I'll repeat them.

"Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me." John 6:57

"If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love." John 15:10

Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." John 20:21

What I see is a pattern of equivalents: Jesus notes some aspect of his relationship with the Father, then says the believer's relations with him are "Just as" or "even as" his are with the Father. So just as the Lord Jesus obeys the Father, we obey him. Jesus lives on the Father (his food is in keeping his commands, cf John 4:34) so do we live on him. As the Father sent him, so he sends us. How does this not represent a compelling pattern?

The focus in the gospels and Acts is not on us, it's on him. Peter preached this gospel, not of his (Peter's) enjoyment but on Jesus' resurrection. "Know ye that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified." Peter didn't get side-tracked by his own "enjoyment" or "experience". He was laser-focused on the resurrected Messiah.

And the epistles didn't leave this - they built on it. Nothing Paul did, that I can see, departed the "right hand of fellowship" of those that preceded him, including their gospels and their testimonies of Jesus.

Now, perhaps I'm conflating Major Ian Thomas with Witness Lee. But they sound a lot alike, and the danger's the same. And the only protest to my noting this, quoted above, comes from someone who ignores the substance of what was written, which only serves to reinforce the idea that perhaps I'm onto something. They're bothered, and they protest, but do so ignoring the word. Again, similar arguments were received in the LC -- ignore the substance of what was said.

The gospel word shows us a relationship, beckons us to follow. Instead we get a generic "Christ in you". In this case, it seems that "Christ" is whatever you want. How do you know that your "enjoyment" or "experience" is real? Jesus' was - the Father raised him from the dead, furnishing proof to all, for all time. Why then focus on your own ephemeral sensations? Your striving, your joy? It seems rather untrustworthy. And why ignore the trustworthy revelation of God, regarding the person, position, and experiences of Jesus the Son of God, Saviour of the world, as if it weren't laid out here, if not in full, at least in part?
On one hand I can agree, that is, the focus for us is to be on Christ. It has to be and that is what we see in the Bible - Christ. But was Christ a Man? Of course. So I think this is a false dilemma here, thinking the focus is on us. Why did Christ come? Us. Man is not nothing. Now of course, apart from Christ we are exactly that - nothing. But we're not apart from Him - He did it all to make us proper vessels to contain what? Him.

But I get it: WL and the LCs catch it because in trying to emphasize what man in in scripture, they probably go a little far. Okay, true. But, after all, man is His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus. (a problem among many of us Christians today is we don't see man high enough . . . for what God has really made us in Christ!)

Now to those who used to be in the LC, there is a sensitivity to saying that man is something more, and this is well expressed on this forum (as Raptor pointed out). But it doesn't negate the fact that there is a ton of talk about us and our experience in the New Testament, is there not? The four gospels are fully centered on Christ, however, the epistles really shift to Christ in us - living in us and operating through us, and what our role is in His operation. But again, I think this is a false dilemma because I don't think Ian Thomas is putting undue focus on us. After all, the title of the book this quote came from is "The Indwelling Life of Christ." Can't have much of an indwelling Christ without the vessel, bro!
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:14 AM   #20
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On one hand I can agree, that is, the focus for us is to be on Christ. It has to be and that is what we see in the Bible - Christ. But was Christ a Man? Of course. So I think this is a false dilemma here, thinking the focus is on us. Why did Christ come? Us. Man is not nothing. Now of course, apart from Christ we are exactly that - nothing. But we're not apart from Him - He did it all to make us proper vessels to contain what? Him.

But I get it: WL and the LCs catch it because in trying to emphasize what man in in scripture, they probably go a little far. Okay, true. But, after all, man is His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus. (a problem among many of us Christians today is we don't see man high enough . . . for what God has really made us in Christ!)

Now to those who used to be in the LC, there is a sensitivity to saying that man is something more, and this is well expressed on this forum (as Raptor pointed out). But it doesn't negate the fact that there is a ton of talk about us and our experience in the New Testament, is there not? The four gospels are fully centered on Christ, however, the epistles really shift to Christ in us - living in us and operating through us, and what our role is in His operation. But again, I think this is a false dilemma because I don't think Ian Thomas is putting undue focus on us. After all, the title of the book this quote came from is "The Indwelling Life of Christ." Can't have much of an indwelling Christ without the vessel, bro!
To a certain degree it may indeed be a matter of emphasis, with the right tack being of "balance" - holding to two opposing aspects, like "God and man" with the tension being not of contradiction but a kind of creative tension, where two distinct things are added together to create one new, unique entity.

Certainly the NT has plenty of material, especially Ephesians/Colossians and so forth, to build such a 'mystical' narrative. Then you can go back to the OT for 'type', with oil added to flour, etc etc. You can add words like "incorporation" and "indwelling" and on.

And the fact that we both believe in God, and that God raised Jesus from the dead, makes any differences in emphases to be of little import. I merely pointed out why I'm not impressed with Thomas' emphasis on "Christ in you", perhaps mainly in reaction to what I have seen and seen others go through.

So with all those qualifiers, I'll explain my "subjective Christ" - my focus and my life. You ask above, "What is man" and my reply is from Psalms. "What is man" is addressed distinctly in Psalm 8. The answer, the "him" is distinctly given. It is Jesus Christ. Not you or I. Jesus is the "Man" who God is mindful of, who God cares about. "You [the Father] have made him [the Christ] a little lower than the angels [incarnation, suffering, death], and you have crowned him with glory and honour [resurrection, ascension, enthronement]." The "man" here is distinctly (to my view) one Person - the Christ, who is Jesus our Lord. There is no other.

Now, we are "in him" and he is "in us", yes. But what is our focus? Him, or us? Our strivings versus our rest, our experience and enjoyment? Christ then becomes a prop in our self-focused narrative. Our sensations take over, and we're convinced the "head rush" is the Holy Spirit (and it may indeed be, at least for a while) but eventually it's all about the head rush. Or the 'peace' or whatever. It's no longer about him, but about us. We claim it's about the indwelling Christ but it's about us.

The self is a yawning chasm, waiting to take us in.

Here is my example, given before, so I'll be brief. There is a hymn that says, "The Bride eyes not her garment, but her dear Bridegroom's face". Yet we were continually (again I reference my LSM-mediated church life) told to look at our garment. Yet the only difference between the woman clothed in the Sun and the Great Harlot, is that one looks at her Maker and the other looks at Herself. Otherwise they are the same. So "look away" unto Jesus. Don't look at yourself. Enjoyment, misery, whatever. Look at him, and live.

That's my narrative anyway. But I don't impose it as a condition of fellowship.

Peace
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: His Purpose - Christ in us

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Originally Posted by aron View Post
Now, we are "in him" and he is "in us", yes. But what is our focus? Him, or us? Our strivings versus our rest, our experience and enjoyment? Christ then becomes a prop in our self-focused narrative. Our sensations take over, and we're convinced the "head rush" is the Holy Spirit (and it may indeed be, at least for a while) but eventually it's all about the head rush. Or the 'peace' or whatever. It's no longer about him, but about us. We claim it's about the indwelling Christ but it's about us.

The self is a yawning chasm, waiting to take us in.

Here is my example, given before, so I'll be brief. There is a hymn that says, "The Bride eyes not her garment, but her dear Bridegroom's face". Yet we were continually (again I reference my LSM-mediated church life) told to look at our garment. Yet the only difference between the woman clothed in the Sun and the Great Harlot, is that one looks at her Maker and the other looks at Herself. Otherwise they are the same. So "look away" unto Jesus. Don't look at yourself. Enjoyment, misery, whatever. Look at him, and live.

That's my narrative anyway. But I don't impose it as a condition of fellowship.

Peace
Of course - we're just sharing here, and hopefully gaining Christ in the process!

So here's something from the next little chapter of that Major Thomas book: "Faith means letting Him. You will never let Him until you are prepared to admit you cannot, and only God can." Without going into detail, let me say that in reading his materials, the focus really is on Christ, not on us . . . except to say we must let Him.
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