Warning in Revelation 22:18-19 and the RcV footnotes

[countmeworthy]

For some time, I've had some pressing concerns regarding Brother Lee's footnotes in the RcV.
Revelation 22:18-19 admonishes

unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

We all know the RcV is filled from cover to cover with Witness Lee's opinions on his interpretation of the scriptures. Some are correct but many are his own opinions and there-in lies the problem.

The LSMrs sing the praises of the footnotes without searching and studying the Word of God for themselves to see if the footnotes are merely his opinions and could be WRONG. They are HIS opinion and if it's his opinion, then the LSMrs believe it must be Truth and sanctioned by God. If this wasn't so, Lee's co-workers would have discussed with him these scripture interpretations are HIS VIEWS and should not have been included in the footnotes.

Now BFA goes around promoting the RcV and enthusiastically points the undisputable footnotes unaware many of the footnotes are merely WLee's opinions and not GOD'S WORD. They take PRIDE in the footnotes. JW's and Mormons also share their opinions with conviction as TRUTH in their attempts to convert people.

Let me take you to a couple of scriptures and Lee's footnotes. It's very possible the scriptures I'm going bring out have hardly been explored by, former or current LSMrs. I hope they will be of interest nonetheless.
The scriptures I'm going to bring to the forefront are Revelation 4:4 and Revelation 6:2.
The scripture from Revelation 4:4 I'm using taken from the RcV which I have no problem with is:

And around the throne there were twenty-four thrones, and upon the thrones twenty-four elders sitting clothed in white garments, and upon their heads golden crowns.

For the fun of it, here is KJ's scripture comparison:

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Brother Lee wrote in the footnotes that the twenty-four elders are angelic elders who carry out God's administration. In reading the rest of the explanation of the footnote, his footnote makes absolutely no sense to me. That he refers to the twenty four elders as angelic beings without at the very least informing the reader that it is HIS OPINION is what is disturbing.
For you see, a reader who is not a student of the Word of God will only take it at face value that Lee wrote it and thus it must be true. What is more disturbing is it is not a commentary in say a 'life study message' only or the HWMR or in a separate book on the subject. IT IS inserted as a FOOTNOTE in a BIBLE.
I'm not trying to convince anyone Lee's footnotes, his opinions are wrong. Let the student of the Bible make that determination through the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God. However, let me share what I have discovered about these 24 elders backing it with the Word of God. The name elder is never applied to angels. Angels do not have crowns and sit on 'thrones'. Only the redeemed MEN (people) are promised thrones and crowns in the bible.
In the RcV footnote, Mr Lee even points to Matthew 19:28 in which Jesus tells His disciples

Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Yet, he then refers to the elders as angelic beings! Either they are or they are NOT.
Other scriptures proving it is the BLOOD BOUGHT redeemed saints who are promised to have thrones wearing crowns on their heads are: Revelation 3:21, Revelation 20:4, Revelation 2:10, 1 Peter 5:4, & 2 Timothy 4:8. Angels are never mentioned wearing crowns or sitting on thrones.
Au contrair, Satan's downfall was he wanted to sit on God's THRONE and overthrow God.
Lee could have believed and taught the 24 elders were angelic beings but he never at the very least, said it was HIS OPINION and that is what HE believed. By doing my homework, based on the scriptures, I am convinced Lee's view is erroneous. I will emphasize again: that his opinion is inserted as a footnote in the bible is very disturbing especially since I am proving his opinion is wrong.

Moving on to another scripture with footnotes ascribing his opinion is Revelation 6:2

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Again, Lee makes the mistake of documenting HIS OPINION as a footnote in the bible. He claims the white horse is the gospel. That is HIS OPINION.
There are 4 views of the white horse:
1) Military conquest
2) the proclamation of the gospel
3) The Lord Jesus Christ
4) The Antichrist
My opinion is not the point.

Lee's BIG MISTAKE and even bigger is, the now leaders of the LSM/LC is Lee's opinion was inserted as a footnote in the RcV.
All those footnotes permit people to get lazy and not search the scriptures for themselves. They don't let the Holy Spirit enlighten them. Why should they? Lee said it. Lee wrote. End of story. This is very dangerous. We are WARNED not to add or take away from the prophesy of the Bible. By inserting the footnotes in a bible as the 'gospel truth', he is adding to the bible, his opinion.

The LSMrs reading this may argue the footnotes are NOT scripture but why is Lee's opinions IN the BIBLE then? He could have set aside a separate page explaining his view, compare other views and let the reader be enlightened by the Holy Spirit as the reader studies the Word of God. Better yet would have been for Lee to have written a separate commentary in book form leaving most of the footnotes that are of HIS OPINION out of the RcV.

But for the 'sake of oneness', no one challenged him. I guess when they stand before the judgment seat of Christ, they'll point to Brother Lee, huh?

(I will copy this post to the other forum as well.) Thanks for reading.
__________________
LUKE 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[Former LC member]

Wow! Great to read your studies on these verses countmeworthy.
Yes, it is an eye opener[spiritually] when we come to the Word with an inquiring mind and open heart. Keep it up.

[Felix]

Thanks brother, for sharing the true, actually the true is revealing by itself.....I will try to translate in spanish and send it to a different saints.....They have to know that they have to come to the word, and be lead by the the Spirit....That's all what we need!! Amen.

[OBW]

I’m quite glad to see someone taking on the misplacement of Lee’s commentary into and among scripture where only meaningful and helpful facts should be placed. As CMW and others have commented, these meaningful and helpful facts should aid us in understanding the scripture to which they are attached rather than providing meaning that would not otherwise be found within those scripture.

One of the things that is correctly mentioned is that we all need to come to scripture first and foremost. Even if something said by another sparks some response, we should take the time to review it against scripture.

And it is equally true that we need to be open to the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. But this is often where the LC went astray. While the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is very important, providing “spiritual discernment” as Paul called it in 1 Corinthians 1, it is also something that can be misunderstood and even misrepresented. For example, to suggest that pray-reading as taught in the LC is a good source of spiritual discernment of the scripture is faulty. Pray-reading, even if at times useful, is a methodology that has at its core a sort of “clearing of the mind” through chopping verses into meaningless fragments, coupled with an emotional high, especially when practiced with a group. The result is that the participant is open to accept anything that another participant, speaker, or writer says about the verses just covered.

Even if we accept that it was never intended that what was provided as the meaning of the verses be in error, the very way that it is provided almost guarantees that it will not be questioned. Any discrepancies relative to the actual scriptures will be overlooked.

Even when we have come away from the LC and from its faulty teachings, how can we be sure that what we think is the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is actually so? The answer is that it will always bear out the actual scriptures. While it is true that understanding of scripture requires spiritual discernment, that discernment will ultimately cause the scripture to have clear meaning that does not stand in contradiction to the actual words recorded. Even a claim of private speaking from the Holy Spirit will not contradict the scripture.

But Lee contradicted the scripture. He so often could not find his pet meanings in the scriptures, so he ignored their context and looked elsewhere, mostly to his own narrow ministry, to find meaning not otherwise included there in the scripture. He so often would come to say something like “if we have a clear view of God’s economy, then we will see that this is simply [something not actually recorded in the scripture he is covering].” For the magician, this is called misdirection. “Look over here while I do something less obvious over there.” And with a wave of the hand, results become causes.

(I so often harp on this one because it was in the misanalysis of 1 Timothy 1:3-4 that correct teachings which will result in God’s administration or “God’s economy” was turned into the teachings actually being God’s economy. This is the very opening of The Economy of God. Something that was the combined result of all of the correct and healthy teachings was twisted into being a simple thing ─ God dispensed into man ─ and was then said to be the thing to teach. But I thought that the teachings were things like love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and will, and your neighbor as yourself; like care for widows and orphans; like obey my commandments; like forgive your brother every time. None of these are “simply God dispensed into man.” It is true that God living in man, which is effectively the writing of the law on our hearts, would make doing these things much easier than when God was merely outside and the law objective. But even if we say that this is God dispensed into man, it does not negate the commandments of Christ. It does not override Jesus commandment to the disciples to teach the new converts to obey all that He had commanded.)

This is why I think that Lee's commentaries placed in with scripture as footnotes for a study bible is so insidious. Those notes do not help the reader study the scripture that is actually there. They direct the reader to understand something that is not in scripture. They become replacements for the clear words in scripture when that scripture does not fall in line with Lee's pet doctrines. The goal, even if not malicious, is to direct the reader to understand scripture in a way that is not consistent with the actual words recorded. As such, they are not properly included as footnotes in a study bible.

And if there are study bibles that others have done that similarly include their opinions concerning the meaning of scripture, even if their conclusions are reasonable, they should not be included as footnotes in a study bible.

[countmeworthy]

I am posting my thoughts on this forum and the other one as an fyi.

Regarding the elders...the confusion in the footnotes is Lee refers to them as Angelic beings in the footnotes yet then he refers to Matthew 19:28 which Jesus says who will be sitting on the thrones. And they are not the Angelic beings. So which is it?

Lee wrote:

Twenty-four is formed by multiplying twelve by two. Twelve indicates the completion of God's administration (Matt. 19:28). David divided both the priests and the Levites into twenty-four groups to carry out God's administrative service. Therefore, before they are replaced by the church, the twenty-four angelic elders are the ones who carry out God's administration. Twelve multipllied by two signifies strengthening by doubling, indicating that the divine administration carried out by the twenty-four angelic elders is strong.

Lee is claiming that at one time angels were elders. I submit the "Elders" are not angels! The name ELDER is never applied to angels! Angels do not have CROWNS or THRONES. Where in the bible do we read angels are CROWNED or given THRONES?

I backed up my research by giving scriptures whereas Brother Lee does not back up scriptures proving ANGELS have crowns or thrones. Show me the scriptures please.

Here are the scriptures proving it is MAN redeemed by the BLOOD of the LAMB who are given crowns and thrones:

Revelation 3:21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

When are angels called overcomers?
Revelation 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 2:10

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

1 Peter 5:2-4

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

2 Timothy 4:8

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Daniel 7:9-10

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

The Elders are the representives of the Old and New Testament saints who have been redeemed by the Blood of Christ.
They are seated on Thrones. The thousands and myriads attending to the Ancient of Days are angelic beings but are not wearing crowns nor are they seated. Angels have always been ministering beings.

The Elders passed fiery tests. READ the Scriptures I provided again. Their rewards for passing the fiery tests are the crowns given to them: The crown of Righteousness, the Crown of Glory, the Crown of Life, the Incorruptible Crown and the Crown of Rejoicing. (1 Timothy 4:8, 1 Peter 5:2-4, Revelation 2:10, 1 Corinthians 9:25-27, and 1 Thes 2:19-20)

In Revelation 5:8-10, the elders are discribed as having been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; bestowing them the honor of reigning on the earth as kings and priests unto our God.

And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Thus far I have not found anything which points to the elders as being Angelic. I have done a thorough study on the 24 elders to the best of my ability and explained how the 24 elders are NOT ANGELIC elders but are the REDEEMED SAINTS washed in the Blood of the Lamb who overcome. Angels were not and will never be bought by the Blood of Jesus.

Thank You all for reading my posts/thread.
I truly love to read/study and pray and fellowship. I say this humbly. Truly I was called to be a Priest and King unto the Most High God. I only regret with a repentant heart that much of my adult life, I ran away from the Lord like Jonah and the Prodigal son.

[YP0534]

I don't think a lot of Lee's stuff is bad. In fact, I believe some here may recall that I have theorized/discovered that much of it may actually be just recycled Sunday School lessons from the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Regardless, this is exactly the sort of study that should be done with Lee's or anyone else's materials. I'm thankful for CMW's study and encourage all to engage in a similar exploration of God's Word. If what Lee has said is of God, it will stand. If it is not, we can be confident that it will fall. Honest and critical scrutiny with much consideration and prayer is not to be avoided but rather pursued.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I don't think a lot of Lee's stuff is bad. In fact, I believe some here may recall that I have theorized/discovered that much of it may actually be just recycled Sunday School lessons from the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Regardless, this is exactly the sort of study that should be done with Lee's or anyone else's materials. I'm thankful for CMW's study and encourage all to engage in a similar exploration of God's Word. If what Lee has said is of God, it will stand. If it is not, we can be confident that it will fall. Honest and critical scrutiny with much consideration and prayer is not to be avoided but rather pursued.

Thanks YPO, I also don't believe a lot of Lee's works were bad. It's just that he did not receive everything he wrote and taught directly from the Word of God. He studied, yes. But much of what he wrote, was already written by other servants of the Lord.

[countmeworthy]

There is a saying that the Lord works in mysterious ways. I'm sure we've all had those moments where we can agree and say 'Yep, He sure does.'

Over the years, I have read about the crowns spoken of in the Bible but never really gave them much thought. Then last year, a friend in Christ mentioned that we will be getting crowns at the Judgment seat of Christ. It didn't sink in then either. A few months ago, I came across a study on the Judgment seat of Christ and this is when I began a serious study on the crowns prayerfully.

If you knew me personally, you would know I'm very down to earth. Yet I am blessed to be able to spend a lot of time reading, praying and studying the Word of God, with Praise, Worship and Thanksgiving. There is a lot I wish to say but I want to stick to the 'Crowns' sprinkled with a tid bit on the book of remembrance found in Malachi 3:16-18, and the scriptures on wood, hay & stubble.

So as my studies began, I began to pray I would not only be counted worthy to escape all the things that are about to come to pass, that I may hear the words "Well done my good & faithful servant. Enter into the Joy of the Lord", I began to pray to be counted worthy to receive the Crown of Righteousness, the Crown of Glory, the Incorruptible Crown, the Crown of Rejoicing and the Crown of Life. Then the Lord spoke to my heart to pray for all the saints to be counted worthy to receive the crowns too, not just me. And thus, this has become my prayer.

So here is a little more regarding the crowns:
The Incorruptible Crown is also known as a Victor's Crown. In the 'olden days', the athletes would receive wreaths after winning a race. We've all seen those pictures of Ceasar wearing a wreath on his head. That crown was corruptible. Jesus wore a crown of thrones on HIS Head for our sake. Ours will be INCORRUPTIBLE.

The Crown of Life is the Martyr's crown. We know there are many, many believers who physically died for the Lord and the sake of the gospel. Many more will die for their unwaivering Faith in Christ Jesus during the Tribulation. Those who endure trials and tribulation & Persecution for the sake of the gospel will also be blessed with this Crown. Obviously, not all of us go through 'persecutions'. But life is filled with trials & tribulations & to those who pass the test, this crown will be given. (James 1:12)

The Crown of Glory is the Elder's Crown reserved for those who fed the flock. I am convinced any one of us can receive this crown. It is not reserved for those in leadership positions only. As we minister to one another, building up one another in Christ, praying for one another, I believe we are working for this Crown.
The Crown of Righteousness is reserved for those who are watching and Loving the Appearing of our Lord's return. It is not enough to be believe Jesus is returning some day for us. Revelation 22 ends with the prayer: Come Lord Jesus. Come. The Spirit and the Bride say "Come". I pray this everyday.

The Crown of Rejoicing is the soul winner's crown. I believe if we win ONE soul to the Kingdom, this qualifies us for this Crown as we rejoice in their salvation.

Our salvation cannot be lost but the following verses tell us we can lose our crowns.
Lamentations 5:16

The crown is fallen from our head: woe unto us, that we have sinned!

Revelation 3:11

Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Now, my personal opinion is the crowns are not going to be like the earthly crowns we have here on earth. Christ is our CROWN of GLORY. I believe these crowns are going to reveal GOD'S GLORY in us and on us.

Kings wear crowns and as we co-reign with Christ, the world during the MILLENEAL Reign will know we were rewarded for dying to self and obeying the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT in us all the while giving God the Glory & Praise with Thanksgiving through Christ Jesus whom we LOVE and ADORE.

I believe I received revelation today regarding gold, silver and precious stones vs wood, hay and stubble.
1 Corinthians 3:11-13

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

There is a book of Remembrance found in
Malachi 3:16-18

Then they that feared the LORD spoke often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon His Name.
And they shall be Mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Again, My personal opinion is at the Judgment seat of Christ, God will open the Book of Remembrance on us. The book will be filled with 'memories' of how we Honored the LORD after we got saved. Everytime we speak of the Great and Awesome things of the LORD to each other, it is recorded. When we think about HIM, it is recorded. If we served the Lord in our carnal flesh, it will be recorded there too and thus our works will be tried by fire. That will be the wood, hay and stubble. If there is a lot of wood, hay and stubble found in the book of Remembrance, we're not going to have much gold, silver and precious stones eminating from us.

Since EVERY SAVED believer will stand at the Judgment seat of Christ, it is there where the JUDGE will determine who will be worthy of the crowns to rule and reign with Christ.
We've all seen the 3 inner circles pertaining to the spirit, soul and body. I think we all know they correspond to the Holy of Holies, the Inner Court and the outer court.
Those of us with the crowns will be worthy to sit on the thrones reserved for us in the Holy of Holies. Some will be not as worthy to receive crowns but will possibly assist us by being assigned to live in the inner court. Those who got saved by the skin of their teeth will be living in the outercourt during the 1000 yr reign. I believe we will be teaching them the deep things of the LORD. I believe we will also have practical rewards they will not have.

May we ALL be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to be crowned as priests and kings unto our God, worthy to reign with Christ.
Thanks again for reading my post. I truly believe the LORD put it in my spirit to write this.
Your friend and sister in Christ,
Carol
__________________
LUKE 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[Timotheist]

CMW,

Long after I had been deLeed and I began to research things like this for myself, I was often dismayed by Lee's assertions in the RCV footnotes.

Good study bibles will summarize alternate interpretations even if the author favors one over the others. Also, responsible authors will give credit to the originators of certain interpretations, if such is known.

Lee did neither of these things.

Most of Lee's eschatology was inherited by his exposure to the teachings of the Plymouth brethren, but where does he give an acknowledgement in the RCV? This borders on plaigerism, at least morally if not legally.

Darby and the PB movement deserve credit where credit is due, and criticism where criticism is due. I very much doubt if Lee would have believed in a pre-trib rapture of the overcomers had he not been led that way by Darby's theories.

I happen to know why Lee believed that the 24 elders were angelic beings, for my personal research led me to the source of the interpretation.

The book of Enoch, which is considered non-canonical, contains within it a very detailed description of heaven and the angelic order. And by comparing this description to that of John's vision, one could come to the conclusion that the 24 elders are angels.

But where does Lee refer to Enoch to support this interpretation? He would not, because this would be criticized. Instead, it is thrown out there in the footnotes as an assertion without explanation or supporting evidence.

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=Timotheist;6666]

Good study bibles will summarize alternate interpretations even if the author favors one over the others. Also, responsible authors will give credit to the originators of certain interpretations, if such is known.
Lee did neither of these things.
Most of Lee's eschatology was inherited by his exposure to the teachings of the Plymouth brethren, but where does he give an acknowledgement in the RCV? This borders on plaigerism, at least morally if not legally.

Great info Timo. Thank You soo much. You are absolutely right on about good study bibles and correct Lee never gave credit to the originators of certain interpretations. He simply stated he 'stood on shoulders' of such people like Watchman Nee & the Plymouth Brethren, gathering some other info from Pember.

God has used authors, such as Clarence Larkin to give me an excellent understanding of the book of Revelation and the Dispensational Truth and Rightly Dividing the Word. Larkin was an American born in the 1800s and died in 1925. He has several books that explain the Creation and the Pre-Adamic age. In fact, he uses the famous 3 inner circles we all thought, OR at least I THOUGHT came from Nee. But Nee was born around 1918 I believe. He would have been a toddler or a very young child to come up with the 3 circles! Larkin has amazing charts!! Keep in mind he DIED in 1925, publishing much of his work 2-3 years before his death and 2 decades before ISRAEL was restored as a nation!

But he is not the only author I refer to. There are others.

Like many, I had no relationship with the LORD before I got saved, or at best a very shallow one. I had never read the bible. Religion was a turn off for me as was for most of us. Everything I learned in the LC was Revelation to me. Little did I know, the LORD had not anointed Lee to be the 'oracle of this age' as we were led to believe. He and Nee did not come up with the 3 circles we are soo familiar with!

I'm not saying God did not use Nee & Lee but for them, especially Lee, but the LSM is somehow convinced no one has ever been used by God, like Lee was. How pathetic to believe this!

Darby and the PB movement deserve credit where credit is due, and criticism where criticism is due. I very much doubt if Lee would have believed in a pre-trib rapture of the overcomers had he not been led that way by Darby's theories.

I happen to be Pre-Trib but Lee's explanation of the rapture is so incredibly confusing. I don't consider him Pre-Trib. And I certainly do NOT agree with his view that the first horseman of the apocalypse is the gospel! SHEESH! No wonder his Rapture theory is all confused! I'll go into that in another thread. I've done a LOT of research on the Trib theories..Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, which I think, Lee probably leans more on. Not sure 'cause his explanation as I said, is soooo confusing! and there is the Post Trib view. There is also Pre-Wrath, Pre-Millinielsism, and Post-Millinealism and then there is a branch who are Preterists and the Kingdom Now bunch. Personally, I live as if the LORD is coming any day now but carry on as if He could delay as well. I sure hope we are not around for the TRIB, especially the last half! Life is getting more & more difficult as it is and the world is growing darker by the day! BUT IF we are, God will certainly supply us supernaturally I believe for the sake of the Gospel and to His GLORY.

I happen to know why Lee believed that the 24 elders were angelic beings, for my personal research led me to the source of the interpretation.
The book of Enoch, which is considered non-canonical, contains within it a very detailed description of heaven and the angelic order.

Ohhhhhhhhhh ! He read the book of Enoch and never shared it with us (to my knowledge.) I get it now! I wonder if Albert & Bilbo from the other forum know this ??? If they do, they have not revealed it and probably won't. I have been wanting to read the book of Enoch but have not gotten a hold of it yet. Now, I can't comment on it because I have not read it, but from what I have heard, it is a very, insightful and very good book. That said, there IS an order of hierchy among the angels for the Word of God describes to some extent the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and each of us have angels assigned to us. Those I know who have commented on it have NEVER said the angels had crowns/thrones..just an hierchy. But I don't know what it says for sure. Btw, I'm reading a very good book on Angels right now called Angels that gather by Paul Keith Davis.

And by comparing this description to that of John's vision, one could come to the conclusion that the 24 elders are angels.

Do you know if the book describes them with crowns & sitting on thrones or at best eludes that they would? Like I said, I do believe there is a heavenly hierchy among them. Lucifer was the chief musician and the closest angel to God I think.

But where does Lee refer to Enoch to support this interpretation? He would not, because this would be criticized. Instead, it is thrown out there in the footnotes as an assertion without explanation or supporting evidence.

But of course! Imagine having the book of Enoch at the LC bookstore!

THANKS for the heads up Timotheous! We all learned something from you today! Carol

[Timotheist]

You can find Enoch posted online for free. You can copy and paste the text into your favorite editor.

It has been a while since I studied this book, so I cannot recall the use of crowns or thrones to describe the angels.

But I do recall another source of Lee dogma as being taken from Enoch.

I remember Lee believed that demons were disembodied spirits that were the off-spring of angels mating with women in the days of Noah. I had always wondered where he got that idea.

Enoch, which recounts the days of Noah in more detail than does Genesis, explicitly states this.

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=Timotheist;6668]

You can find Enoch posted online for free. You can copy and paste the text into your favorite editor.

Great minds think a like. I'm scanning through the book of Enoch on line now!! I have not come across anything about crowns or thrones ascribed to angels thus far. Uriel is mentioned as a high ranking angel though.

Sure is written 'different'.

I remember Lee believed that demons were disembodied spirits that were the off-spring of angels mating with women in the days of Noah. I had always wondered where he got that idea.

Yes...and I do believe he was correct in that teaching. Those off-spring were called Nephalim. Goliath is supposed to be a Nephalim. He was a GIANT in the land. And he was not the only one either. There is A LOT of info on the Nephalim these days. I'm still trying to grasp the idea how angels (fallen) could have produced sperm to have offspring. But apparently they did. That is why there is a class of fallen angels who are locked up in hell reserved for judgment:
2 Peter 2:4

4...God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

Now, based on the rest of the bible, we know we wrestle against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. And these are the fallen angels at work.
...different from demons who are the disembodied spirits of the Nephalim, (mighty men of renown) needing a habitation to exist in. They also can die but not so with angels. Demons can die because they are hybrids, the offspring of the sexual union between a fallen angel and a woman. UGH!!!

Enoch, which recounts the days of Noah in more detail than does Genesis, explicitly states this.

Yes, Don't know if you are familiar with Perry Stone, he has an interesting teaching on the Nephalim and some of it comes from the book of Enoch. Some people believe the Nephalim will return/re-surface in the last days because the last days are compared to the days of Noah and vs 5 then says:

if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;....vs 9: then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment

I say: COME LORD JESUS! COME!!!!

P.S....we're getting away from the CROWNS !!