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Old 10-08-2019, 02:04 PM   #1
googlelight
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Default Early Lee - Later Lee

It is hard being a berean, it keeps me up day and night investigating all of this

The leadership of LR wrote the following about a book:

"In Satanís Strategy Against the Church , Witness Lee explains how Satan seeks to undermine Godís will by distracting the believers with many substitutes for the living person of Christ, replacing the function of the members of the Body of Christ with the clergy-laity system, and dividing the Body of Christ..."

All I could think of when reading it was the following:
1. Satan seeks to undermine Godís will by distracting the believers with many substitutes for the living person of Christ: By excessively leading saints into reading ministry material, outlines, life-study, morning revival, solely their own rec. version and their own hymnal.

2. replacing the function of the members of the Body of Christ with the clergy-laity system: By avoiding saints to follow the inner anointing and instead admonish them to submit to the blended brothers and the ministry without asking questions, and just sharing and respeaking what WL and the up-to-date ministry is saying, instead of following the inner anointing and speaking out what Christ has inwardly revealed in you?
3.dividing the Body of Christ: By saying 99% of Christians are wrong and live in division and that they have nothing of value to add to the Body of Christ since they are not following the ministry?

Are they saying that they are following Satans strategy?
Oh well, it is just so fascinating observing it all a little bit from the outside


source: https://an-open-letter.org/en/resour...ords-recovery/
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: Early Lee - Later Lee

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Originally Posted by googlelight View Post
The leadership of LR wrote the following about a book: "In Satan’s Strategy Against the Church , Witness Lee explains how Satan seeks to undermine God’s will by distracting the believers with many substitutes for the living person of Christ, replacing the function of the members of the Body of Christ with the clergy-laity system, and dividing the Body of Christ..."
Substitutes for the living person of Christ... the diagnosis has merits but the proposed remedy does not. Yes, "Christianity", however loosely or tightly defined, arguably has things other than the living person of Christ. But what has the LR leadership promoted, from WL on down? Things other than the living person of Christ. Look at the Daystar Motorhome Company for example. WL said it would do 3 things: provide work for the church members, provide a return on their initial investments, and funds for further church affairs (buildings, salaries & support).

All it did was provide funds for Timothy Lee and his coterie (like father WL, TL had a [guanxi] network of dependents to care for).

So, was this Christ? The deputies, the current ''blended leadership'' of the LR, sold it as such. When WL's money-making schemes collapsed and the 'investment' was gone, Lee's Lieutenants said it was a test from God. Our faith was no longer in Christ but his supposed deputy - would we all "line up" and "hand over"? Would we keep our mouths shut and not murmur as the Lee family fleeced us? That became the benchmark of faith, not confessing Jesus as risen from the dead.

And the Later Nee did the same thing - became as myopic, shrill, and self-oriented as Later Lee. Their initial triumphs paved the way for later failures. Only Jesus Christ is trustworthy.

"Some trust in chariots, some in horses, but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They are fallen, and brought low, but we are risen and stand upright." Only Jesus Christ can sing this song - only he is risen and upright. Our only reality is in finding and holding to him. "In the midst of the Great Congregation, I [Jesus Christ the resurrected Lamb] sing hymns of praise to you [Father God]." We hear the voice of Christ, and join in the victory celebration. Really, what else is there?
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:41 AM   #3
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Good post. Yes, what else is there? Good question. I have no answer, but a song i listened to really shined into my heart;

On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand

Had spiritual and eloquent men led me to stand on another rock? Namely, the ministry, had it become my rock?

I am still not sure, yet
"I dare not trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus' name."

What a lovely lovely song to a confused Christian like me on his journey
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Old 10-09-2019, 05:11 AM   #4
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Good post. Yes, what else is there? Good question.
I have no answer, but a song i listened to really shined into my heart;
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand

Had spiritual and eloquent men led me to stand on another rock? Namely, the ministry, had it become my rock?

I am still not sure, yet "I dare not trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus' name."

What a lovely lovely song to a confused Christian like me on his journey
The fact that you are now asking this question, like most of the rest of us, shows that to a certain degree we had trusted in another "rock."

What a blessing! Full salvation includes the transition from trusting a myriad of falsities to only the Solid Rock.

What about those who even refuse to entertain this question?
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Old 10-09-2019, 05:56 AM   #5
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The fact that you are now asking this question, like most of the rest of us, shows that to a certain degree we had trusted in another "rock."

What a blessing! Full salvation includes the transition from trusting a myriad of falsities to only the Solid Rock.

What about those who even refuse to entertain this question?
Indeed a blessing!

But those who refuse to entertain it, isnt it because they are taught time and time again, that entertaining these questions, will cause death? If you accept that anything contrary to the speaking of the blended brothers in the Lords Recovery is from Satan, then how can they entertain this question?

I still have no way and no plan how to speak in a wise way to those I know and have built friendship with, that are in the ministrychurch of witness lee. It is good to have fellowship with each other concerning this matter. The most sad thing for me is... I have been in contact with brothers who are genuinely seeking the Lord, and they have followed the ministry 100%, and now they are stripped, beaten and half dead, and they blame themselves, instead of realizing they are in a Hoax. They blame themselves, saying: "I am probably lukewarm, I probably didnt go to enough meetings etc". With such an emphasis on a person, or a ministry as the ground, how can the Lord even manifest Himself among them in a strong way, like he apparently did in 1963/1964 among them? When I have been in LR meetings these days, there is still some kind of blessing, but this I believe is because 2-3 are gathered in His Name. I find the same blessing, if not more so, in home meetings some "denominations" have. There was no special blessing in the realm of "The Lords" up to date speaking. So it turns out... it is a Hoax. What I really struggle to understand is, these blended brothers, they know the Lord, and they are spiritual and eloquent...How can they continue in a way contrary to the Lords desire? I dont really get it. When having said that...
Matthew 20:25 "But Jesus called them to Him and said, You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever wants to become great among you shall be your servant." The way they respond to critique, doesnt seem to have the attitude of a servant, if you ask me.

And whoever wants to be first among you shall be your slave
I would like them to have a conference around these verses =)
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Old 10-09-2019, 06:55 AM   #6
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Matthew 20:25 "But Jesus called them to Him and said, You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever wants to become great among you shall be your servant." The way they respond to critique, doesnt seem to have the attitude of a servant, if you ask me...
What is so interesting is that LSM has distributed a publication called "Affirmation and Critique" yet when anyone critiques them, they call it an "attack" and so forth. In this they follow WL's lead, who would brook no questioning but gave himself full liberty to question everyone and everything else.

This looks very much like "the way of the gentiles". Whether Chinese gentiles or Swedish is irrelevant. It isn't the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Now, what is the kingdom? For my own clarity, I hold to the gospel messages given by the unlettered Galilean fisherman Simon Peter in Acts 2:14-36, and Paul the urbane, lettered Pharisee in Acts 13. God raised Jesus from the dead.

Everything hinges on this one claim, every prophet looked to it, every message should look back on it and reflect it. There is nothing else.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:05 AM   #7
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Default Re: Early Lee - Later Lee

The last few days I have spent several hours going over Bill Mallon's copious, handwritten notes (link posted on the "Bill Mallon's Passing" thread), and also links posted by different ones concerning the history of the LC in America and LSM. I was not aware of many of the details of the LSM debacle, and many other things. When I was in the LC's in the 70s & 80s, I was blissfully unaware of 98% of this going on in the background. I believe the Lord kept me from knowing these things (need to know basis - and I didn't need to know), and He kept me out of different localities before various things blew-up. He preserved me several times, in remarkable ways. (Even here in Scottsdale, I came in exactly one week after the big Bill & Patsy Freeman blow-up/split - again, blissfully unaware.)

But in all the writings, two things stood out to me regarding Witness Lee. A brother who was with him in the 60s (forget his name), said he believed Lee's ministry was so good in the 60s, because Lee spent a considerable amount of time in prayer, asking forgiveness and for the Lord's mercy. The second thing was his repentance late in life and saying things in his ministry and the LCs were largely devoid of love, the key element.

But after a good start in the 60s, things went off the rails pretty quickly in the 70s and continued that way through the 80s and early 90s. Brother Lee was prone to certain weaknesses with finances and family it seemed, and also with elitism and central control. I forgive WL (and other church leaders), because I have been forgiven in Christ of so much!

Unfortunately, there is now a myth about WL that seems to be propagated by the current LC leadership, in order to keep the whole thing going. Thank you Lord, that you preserved me and brought me out of that system!
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:35 AM   #8
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Default Re: Early Lee - Later Lee

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Originally Posted by googlelight View Post
Indeed a blessing!

But those who refuse to entertain it, isnt it because they are taught time and time again, that entertaining these questions, will cause death? If you accept that anything contrary to the speaking of the blended brothers in the Lords Recovery is from Satan, then how can they entertain this question?

I still have no way and no plan how to speak in a wise way to those I know and have built friendship with, that are in the ministry church of witness lee. It is good to have fellowship with each other concerning this matter. The most sad thing for me is... I have been in contact with brothers who are genuinely seeking the Lord, and they have followed the ministry 100%, and now they are stripped, beaten and half dead, and they blame themselves, instead of realizing they are in a Hoax. They blame themselves, saying: "I am probably lukewarm, I probably didnt go to enough meetings etc". With such an emphasis on a person, or a ministry as the ground, how can the Lord even manifest Himself among them in a strong way, like he apparently did in 1963/1964 among them? When I have been in LR meetings these days, there is still some kind of blessing, but this I believe is because 2-3 are gathered in His Name. I find the same blessing, if not more so, in home meetings some "denominations" have. There was no special blessing in the realm of "The Lords" up to date speaking. So it turns out... it is a Hoax.

What I really struggle to understand is, these blended brothers, they know the Lord, and they are spiritual and eloquent...How can they continue in a way contrary to the Lords desire? I dont really get it. When having said that...
Matthew 20:25 "But Jesus called them to Him and said, You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and the great exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever wants to become great among you shall be your servant." The way they respond to critique, doesnt seem to have the attitude of a servant, if you ask me.

And whoever wants to be first among you shall be your slave
I would like them to have a conference around these verses =)
googlelight, you are asking all the right questions.

The Lord can do many things to free His children from error and bondage. I grew up in the Catholic Church. I was faithful to that system until I reached high school and could no longer enter the confessional to speak to the priest. God used that to free me.

The brothers on your heart who are "stripped, beaten and half dead," may be willing to hear from you. Watch and pray for them that the Lord give you some fellowship for them. Perhaps their own frustrations will open the door for you to share. It is not normal for us Christians to feel condemned all the time, inadequate, and to be without joy. LSM has become a legalistic ministry of condemnation.

I was in that same condition for almost 20 years before I left. At that time, there was no online resources like today, and I could only plod along the best I could. When I first came to the LC's, I was amazed at how much the Lord was doing with our little strength. When I finally left the LC's, I was amazed at how little the Lord was doing with so much of our work. Living in the Ohio region LC's definitely was an improvement over the radical LSM LC's, and that's why LSM expelled us.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:58 AM   #9
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God raised Jesus from the dead.

Everything hinges on this one claim, every prophet looked to it, every message should look back on it and reflect it. There is nothing else.
When making categorical claims and saying, "There is nothing else", I'm being dogmatic. But if there is objective reality then one should believe in something, and I find that the resurrection has such a marvelous and dramatic simplicity that nothing can water it down to irrelevance.

In the LR we sang, "Christ, only Christ" but as soon as the hymnal was closed then other imperatives appeared. The church, the ministry, God's latest move &c. But the resurrection is so encompassing and marvelous that it floods all my conceptual abilities. So I sit there, as stupefied today as when I first believed. Is it true? Is it really true? Can it be? Am I willing to stake my life on this question?

I find that being dogmatically fixated on this one issue allows me the greatest latitude to "receive others" a la Roman's 15, without myself being captured & led astray. The gospel must be simple enough to remember yet comprehensive enough to be relevant in all and to all. In the gospel messages of Acts 2 and 13 I have a fixed point for my consciousness.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:10 PM   #10
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... after a good start in the 60s, things went off the rails pretty quickly in the 70s and continued that way through the 80s and early 90s. Brother Lee was prone to certain weaknesses with finances and family it seemed...
It helps to remember that in the 60s other things were afoot. Up the road in Costa Mesa, the similarly-demographed Calvary Chapel underwent explosive growth and re-seeding across other cities. Witness Lee didn't have to do much except show up and look spiritual. Plus, his position wasn't strong enough. But by the 70s he had enough capital to make his move, and he did. When you see his background it looks inevitable.
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Old 10-09-2019, 01:21 PM   #11
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It helps to remember that in the 60s other things were afoot. Up the road in Costa Mesa, the similarly-demographed Calvary Chapel underwent explosive growth and re-seeding across other cities. Witness Lee didn't have to do much except show up and look spiritual. Plus, his position wasn't strong enough. But by the 70s he had enough capital to make his move, and he did. When you see his background it looks inevitable.

Yeah, it's interesting to consider that if WL was removed from the equation entirely if the early success of the LC would have been any different. Probably not. I suppose it's only a given that after fleeing Taiwan, WL had no choice but to get his act together when starting here. What happened later on comes as no surprise knowing his previous history. So I guess it remains questionable as to how much, if any, of the early success of the LC could be attributed to WL himself.
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Old 10-09-2019, 05:29 PM   #12
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It helps to remember that in the 60s other things were afoot. Up the road in Costa Mesa, the similarly-demographed Calvary Chapel underwent explosive growth and re-seeding across other cities. Witness Lee didn't have to do much except show up and look spiritual. Plus, his position wasn't strong enough. But by the 70s he had enough capital to make his move, and he did. When you see his background it looks inevitable.
Well that's right, that is, the Lord had a huge move going (Jesus People, et.al.) in the late 60s. I don't suppose to know the internal motivations of any man, including WL. He did, according to some accounts, have much repentance in the 60s, and as mentioned, some believe his best works came out of that. After that period, other things certainly got manifested.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:12 PM   #13
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Yeah, it's interesting to consider that if WL was removed from the equation entirely if the early success of the LC would have been any different. Probably not. I suppose it's only a given that after fleeing Taiwan, WL had no choice but to get his act together when starting here. What happened later on comes as no surprise knowing his previous history. So I guess it remains questionable as to how much, if any, of the early success of the LC could be attributed to WL himself.
We have had several posters from Elden Hall confirm to us that the blessing there was NEVER due to Lee. On the contrary, as Lee slowly took over control, things declined. Eventually Lee himself declared that his ministry needed a new start. He got that new start in Anaheim with an infusion of fresh blood from migrations. Anaheim then was never blessed as he had promised.
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