An Outsider's Story

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ToGodAlone

I won't claim to know what marginal exactly means in this context, but I'm pretty sure she's not marginal. She's pretty well integrated as an officer into the club function of CoC as well, which I'm not sure they would allow a "marginal" member to do.

As for her being open to discussion, she is. I probably missed many details in my initial post, which is easy to do. She is by no means a LRC zealot if you will. She has no intentions of going to the FTT after college and pretty much only goes because it's all she knows and has grown up with. Therefore, the outlook is not quite as bleak as you would say. Still, the teachings of LSM and the LRC are well ingrained in her life (understandable since she grew up in it) so it's no walk in the park to convince her of other things, as I'm sure you know.

These facts reveal a kind of wild card. Brought up in the LRC is not necessarily a plus for them. But while she has been open to dating you for some time, since she refuses to really discuss church issues, she has probably not faced the inconsistent position (relative to what her upbringing should insist upon). How she reacts when faced with this reality will be the key.

I know that I painted a bleak picture. But I would not say there is no hope. But if things go well for you, she will eventually have to deal with some level of discord within her family, even if it remains simply the elephant in the room. I know about this. While my family joined the LRC when I was a senior in high school, I was part of it for 14+ years, now being out for almost 24 years (next month). There has been limited real conflict, but continuous background noise about our leaving. When I visit my parents (now only my Dad) or my brother and/or sister, there is an elephant in the room. And the little snips of comments (not directed at us) that are like the voices in the trees on Lost.

Now I met my wife in the LRC, and we left together. The LRC conflict has always been outside of our house, not within it. So our situation is not what you will face (no matter how it works out). But it may not be that different.

As for the comment on being "marginal," it is an insidious term that LRC leadership uses in private about the membership. It relates to those who are not toeing the LRC line in virtually every way. But the range of marginal goes from simply not involved in the latest "turn" (as they used to call it, like the New Way back in the 80s) all the way up to just hanging on and only coming to an occasional meeting. Your girlfriend, by dating an outsider, has become, at some level, marginal no matter how strongly she seems to be for the program and despite the fact that her entire family is part of the LRC. My parents have been referred to as marginal. And they've weathered every storm in the LRC since January, 1973. And out of another side of the leaderships' mouths called pillars of the church in Dallas. (Actually, I doubt that Dallas considers them that marginal. But Irving did, which was mostly run by LSM people at the time.) It probably stems (partly) from the fact that they moved from Dallas to Irving and the back several years later without clearing it with the "brothers." My goodness, someone sold a house without our approval.

The is the nature of the beast that you are dealing with.

[ToGodAlone]

Originally Posted by OBW

These facts reveal a kind of wild card. Brought up in the LRC is not necessarily a plus for them. But while she has been open to dating you for some time, since she refuses to really discuss church issues, she has probably not faced the inconsistent position (relative to what her upbringing should insist upon). How she reacts when faced with this reality will be the key.

I know that I painted a bleak picture. But I would not say there is no hope. But if things go well for you, she will eventually have to deal with some level of discord within her family, even if it remains simply the elephant in the room. I know about this. While my family joined the LRC when I was a senior in high school, I was part of it for 14+ years, now being out for almost 24 years (next month). There has been limited real conflict, but continuous background noise about our leaving. When I visit my parents (now only my Dad) or my brother and/or sister, there is an elephant in the room. And the little snips of comments (not directed at us) that are like the voices in the trees on Lost.

Now I met my wife in the LRC, and we left together. The LRC conflict has always been outside of our house, not within it. So our situation is not what you will face (no matter how it works out). But it may not be that different.

As for the comment on being "marginal," it is an insidious term that LRC leadership uses in private about the membership. It relates to those who are not toeing the LRC line in virtually every way. But the range of marginal goes from simply not involved in the latest "turn" (as they used to call it, like the New Way back in the 80s) all the way up to just hanging on and only coming to an occasional meeting. Your girlfriend, by dating an outsider, has become, at some level, marginal no matter how strongly she seems to be for the program and despite the fact that her entire family is part of the LRC. My parents have been referred to as marginal. And they've weathered every storm in the LRC since January, 1973. And out of another side of the leaderships' mouths called pillars of the church in Dallas. (Actually, I doubt that Dallas considers them that marginal. But Irving did, which was mostly run by LSM people at the time.) It probably stems (partly) from the fact that they moved from Dallas to Irving and the back several years later without clearing it with the "brothers." My goodness, someone sold a house without our approval.

The is the nature of the beast that you are dealing with.

I suppose you are right about the whole elephant in the room thing with her parents. In the event that all goes well and we get married and then on top of that she leaves the LRC to attend somewhere else with me, I think there would be an extremely large elephant in the room if you know what I mean. I don't know how her parents think, but I'd probably say they'd have the feeling that I stole her away entirely. While I might be able to convince her of things within the LRC, I doubt I'd be able to do the same to her parents. Alas, such is the situation.

And if she is indeed considered marginal, then they definitely don't show it. She's pretty well liked and probably well known amongst everyone there (not hard to do since it's a very small assembly).

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Your girlfriend, by dating an outsider, has become, at some level, marginal no matter how strongly she seems to be for the program and despite the fact that her entire family is part of the LRC.

Sisters marrying brothers outside of the LRC is really quite common. As a rule the sisters outnumber the brothers by at least 2 to 1 and maybe even 3 to 1. So given the choice between being a Mormon and marrying a Christian that meets outside of the LRC, they are forced to be practical.

[UntoHim]

ZNP I'd like to know how you come up with this information. How many Local Churches have you surveyed to come up with these figures?

I think the reason for the "missing" brothers is not that the sisters married out of the Local Church, but rather they (sisters) have a tendency to stick it out longer then their husbands. There are probably a lot of reasons for this dynamic and it's probably irrelevant to ToGodAlone anyway.

This is to say nothing of the fact that women have always outnumbered men in American churches, though I have never heard of it reaching a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

ZNP I'd like to know how you come up with this information. How many Local Churches have you surveyed to come up with these figures?

I think the reason for the "missing" brothers is not that the sisters married out of the Local Church, but rather they (sisters) have a tendency to stick it out longer then their husbands. There are probably a lot of reasons for this dynamic and it's probably irrelevant to ToGodAlone anyway.

This is to say nothing of the fact that women have always outnumbered men in American churches, though I have never heard of it reaching a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio.

As to the first question see post #29.

I did not mean to imply that I was giving a reason for the ratio or that the LRC was any different from any other Christian church in this regard. The reason I felt it was relevant ToGodAlone is that sisters in the LRC marrying Christian brothers outside the LRC is not that unusual.

As to the ratio and my "unscientific" method, I understand that you could be in a meeting and there could be people behind the scenes that you are not counting, so I am only counting those that I can see. I would have no way of giving you an accurate number of how many meetings I have counted over 30 years, I would say that it would have to be more than 100 and less than 1,000. But that does include some very large Christian gatherings (I figure the larger the sampling size the better the results).

If I was forced to come up with a reason I would have to say that brothers are worth...(actually I think I will refrain from giving a reason other than this is a Biblical principle that is part of "The Ministry" shared by the MOTA).

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Sisters marrying brothers outside of the LRC is really quite common. As a rule the sisters outnumber the brothers by at least 2 to 1 and maybe even 3 to 1.

Is this your observation from your time in Texas or your observation as a FTTT trainer?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Is this your observation from your time in Texas or your observation as a FTTT trainer?

Well, WL once shared based on the account of Lazarus that it represented a typical church (Mary, Martha and Lazarus) and that generally in the church sisters outnumber brothers 2:1. Since that point I often would find myself bored in a meeting and would count. Now if it was a large meeting say with hundreds or even thousands of saints I would choose a random section, count 30 or 60 saints and figure it was a fair representation. But I would say for the last 30 years I have counted, and this is not merely LRC, this is every meeting I have attended (new places, I don't count every week where I am currently meeting) and it has never seemed to fail. I must say after 30 years it has been extremely rare, if ever, that I attended a church meeting and the ratio was less than 2:1.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Terry

Is this your observation from your time in Texas or your observation as a FTTT trainer?

I answered this in Post #29 on the assumption that the observation you were referring to was the 2:1 ratio or higher. As to the observation about sisters marrying brothers outside the recovery it has been my observation in every meeting that I attended that there would be a number of sisters, perhaps even 10%, that met with the LRC and their husband didn't. Also, over a 20 year time I did learn of number of sisters that were married to brothers outside of the LRC. Again, I would think that 10% is a fair estimate.

As to the reason for this I have no idea and will leave that to others to postulate because anything I say will certainly incite a riot.

[ToGodAlone]

With regards to the gender difference, I'd just attribute that to the fact that there are probably more women in the world than men at this point. Maybe it's not by much, but I guess in certain small assemblies, the discrepancy could appear larger. As it is, I've seen that, at least in the campus LRC, that it is, in fact, the brothers that are marrying outside the LRC and then bringing their wives in. However, I don't know the details of their lives so it is possible that those sisters were just part of another LRC in another locality.