Christianity in China in the 21st Century

[aron]

I read a recent report that China will eventually surpass the U.S. in its Christian population.

http://www.slate.com/bigideas/what-i...g-yang-opinion

But my question is: what does this Christianity look like in China?

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Witness Lee denied that God was three persons. He considered the teaching that God is three persons to border on “tritheism.” Witness Lee preferred the term “Triune God” to the Term “Trinity” .He believed that the Father, the Son and the Spirit, though “distinct,” were one person. He believed that Jesus was the “Triune God mingled with man.” After Jesus’ death and resurrection, Jesus became the Spirit. Witness Lee always denied that his teaching was modalism (the heresy that asserts that God merely acted in different modes at different times and denies the three persons of the Godhead). Nevertheless, if it is not modalism it comes pretty close to it.

In China, Witness Lee’s quasi-modalistic teachings concerning the Trinity evolved into full-blown modalism. Witness Lee’s teachings underwent a number of mutations and transformations before becoming the Eastern Lightning doctrine that God was called “Jehovah” in the Old Testament, “Jesus” in the Age of Grace and now the “Almighty God” in the present Kingdom Age.

Leaving the Holy Spirit out of things for a minute, a pure common sense objection to complete modalism is that any person—believer or unbeliever—reading the New Testament gospels would see that Jesus and the Father are represented as two different persons. No one could honestly see them as the same entity. Jesus says he is sent by the Father (e.g., John 5:37) and he prays to the Father (e.g., John 17) and always speaks of the Father as though he is a separate person.

How does Eastern Lightning answer this objection? They say that when Jesus speaks of the Father he is merely speaking from a human perspective. When he prays to the Father, he does so from the perspective of a created being:……

This is remarkably similar to Witness Lee’s argument concerning the same issue. In Concerning the Triune God, Witness Lee addresses the question in the following way:

. . . if you say the Son is the Father, then how could the Son pray to the Father? . . . The Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the One sent. Since the Lord of hosts is both the Sender and the Sent One, why could it not be that the Lord is the Son who prays and also the Father who listens to the praying? The Father who listens to the praying is the Son who prays; and the Son who prays is also the Father who listens to the prayer. (Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God—The Father, the Son and the Spirit [Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1976?], under “The Son Who Prays Is the Father Who Listens,”)This is clearly at variance with any kind of normal reading of the New Testament accounts.

Witness Lee and the Shouters

In 1967 Witness Lee started the “Calling Out” (or “Shouting”) Movement . He said that the Age of the Word had ended, and now it was the Age of the Spirit. Witness Lee taught that believers must “eat the Lord” (吃主) and the way to do this was by calling out or shouting his name . Calling out his name was the way to release the Spirit in this Age of the Spirit.

After Deng Xiaoping’s “opening up” of China in 1979, many foreigners visited China. At some point between 1978 and the early 1980’s, Witness Lee sent many followers from overseas to Wenzhou in Fujian Province to contact believers from Watchman Nee’s Local Church movement. They reportedly brought with them large amounts of Witness Lee’s books, pamphlets and recordings. Within a few short years, their influence had spread throughout Zhejiang, Fujian, Henan, Guangdong and other places. During their meetings they would shout “Jesus is Lord!” in an attempt to practice Witness Lee’s teaching about calling out the Lord’s name. This is how they got the nickname “Shouters” .

The “Shouters” and the “Local Churches”
The term “Shouters” is not a precise term. It is unfortunately the case that many true believers have been labeled as Shouters even when they are not Shouters. Many people who are called “Shouters” may be true believers. Not all Shouters accept Witness Lee’s teachings, and not all followers of Witness Lee are Shouters. In particular, many Local Churches that follow Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are law-abiding groups that reject the term “Shouters.”

Some Shouters and the Trinity
Some (not all) Shouters took Witness Lee’s strange doctrine of the Trinity one step further and became complete modalists. These groups held that the Father became the Son and was no longer the Father; the Son became the Spirit and was no longer the Son. That is, the Father, the Son and the Spirit are modes by which God manifests himself in different eras. They are not distinct persons.

The “Lord Changshou” sect
One branch of the Shouters held Witness Lee in such high esteem that they began to regard his authority and status as greater than Christ’s. They called Witness Lee, “Lord Changshou” (Changshou is Witness Lee’s given name). This, of course, goes far beyond the actual teaching of Witness Lee, who never proposed to set himself above Christ.

It has been reported that in 1995 this branch of the Shouters distributed 15 million tracts in 20 major cities in China declaring that Witness Lee was the living Christ and that he would become the new king of the universe. One can easily see how this cult became a pattern for Eastern Lightning.

This “Lord Changshou” sect believes that you must call upon the Lord Changshou to be saved; that Jesus is someone of the past and will not return to save the world; and that Lord Changshou will return to save the world.

http://www.facts.org.cn/ebook/201310...11_1137654.htm

This vague report, that the Lord Changshou Shouters distributed 15 million tracts in China in 20 major cities, is now 20 years old. What are they like now, and how many? Certainly when uses the term "Christianity" in China one must have a broader net. I daresay there is a LOT of stuff going on that is nothing like Christianity we know, or have known, in the West.

Isolation, zeal and ignorance are breeding what?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Certainly when uses the term "Christianity" in China one must have a broader net. I daresay there is a LOT of stuff going on that is nothing like Christianity we know, or have known, in the West.

The one thing I know is that at a meeting, probably early '90s but I really don't remember, WL said that there were several tens of millions of Shouters in China. And he said this after going through a roll call of LC members in different areas of the world. So this was the triumphant climax of "his" church. And the audience clearly took it as such.

Ten years later, the LSM says that they have no connection, either formal or informal, with the Shouters. What happened? Did things spin out of control? Did WL assume that he had control, when he never did?

Surely we know that A) he set the table by pushing his doctrines, literature, and organization, in the Mainland; and B) his organization later disavowed any connection whatsoever. Perhaps this was his usual m.o. of simply pretending to have nothing to do with any fiasco that followed his efforts. Certainly we saw that in the LC.

Also we know that WL's theology, which already strained at the bounds of orthodoxy, went completely bonkers when released on the mainland. Now the LSM would say that this is coincidental. It's like blaming Jesus Christ for Mormonism, they'd say; any resemblance is purely coincidental. Perhaps. But the resemblance here is almost too coincidental. I mean the fruit didn't need to fall too far from the parent tree, in this case, to become over-the-edge crazy.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I read a recent report that China will eventually surpass the U.S. in its Christian population.

http://www.slate.com/bigideas/what-i...g-yang-opinion

But my question is: what does this Christianity look like in China?

http://ojs.globalmissiology.org/inde...File/1217/2821

A dissertation on the Christian gospel seen through the lens of Chinese culture.

[Freedom]

I think this is an interesting subject, and I must say that I wish to better understand what non-LC Chinese Christianity looks like. Unfortunately, this curiosity is partially rooted in the notion that they push in the LC, that is, that somehow all non-government sanctioned Christians in China are LC affiliated. An absurd notion, no doubt, but speaking for myself, the thought haunts me nonetheless. To think that the LC has had or could have any considerable amount of influence is frightening.

So what this leads to is concern over the possibility that LC Christians in a country which has been somewhat of a LC stronghold would possibly grow in number. Questions arise. What would be their influence? Would this increase the credibility of the LC? Difficult things to foresee.

I think back to the 2009 CRI journal. They insinuated that all of us nonchalant, latte-sipping American Christians (note my sarcasm) need to learn from the persecuted LCers in China. I don’t say this to make light of anyone’s suffering. But for anyone to think that the suffering of Christians abroad is something that we need to ‘import’ here is preposterous. We have our own unique struggles and obstacles to overcome as Western Christians. The magnitude of our trials and tribulations vary, but that doesn't mean that situation A is more meaningful than situation B. It doesn’t work that way. Oh and for the record, Western Christianity is very much under attack right now in case the CRI thought differently.

So what this brings me to is what I feel to be an important point. From a cultural perspective, Christianity as a (dare I say?) cultural institution, is non-transferable. We Americans practice Christianity as it was born and raised in a particular political setting. Nothing wrong with that, and the political foundations don’t detract from the reality of what we believe. In China there is something completely different. One form is not better than the other.

We are commissioned to preach the gospel. Obviously, this necessitates overcoming some cross-cultural barriers. There are plenty of examples of how this has been a problem among Christians. Missionaries haven’t always got things right. But the objective should never be to either attempt to ‘export’ or ‘import’ something where it doesn’t belong. I have faith that Christians will get it right sooner or later. But this is where groups like the LC have gone so wrong. Instead of spreading the gospel, WL’s goal was to export a model that had been formulated in China. Chinese Christianity was born and raised in a culture a world apart (both figuratively and literally) from Western Christianity. The LC cross-cultural experiment happened and it didn’t work. So the hypothesis can be thrown out. Unfortunately it hasn’t, and the LC continues to wistfully hope for some unprecedented influence rooted in an exported model of Christianity from afar. This is why I am less and less ‘afraid’ of the LC gaining any undue influence. It simply won’t happen.

What will the rise in the population of Chinese Christians bring? I don’t know. It should be positive hopefully. What I do know is this: the LC is a movement whose days are numbered. It might not disappear during my lifetime, but eventually it will be seen for what it really is - a culturally grounded movement. Even China will eventually change with respect to their politics and leaders, hopefully for the better. It will be, and may already be so that Nee’s model is already irrelevant in 21st century China.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

So what this leads to is concern over the possibility that LC Christians in a country which has been somewhat of a LC stronghold would possibly grow in number. Questions arise. What would be their influence? Would this increase the credibility of the LC? Difficult things to foresee.

I think credibility is a good topic. WL certainly liked the idea that several tens of millions of Christians were under his wing. His pleasure was evident as he announced the figures. Suddenly the LC wasn't a fringe group but a real player on the scene.

And why is credibility so important? Namely, for recruiting. If the church has a good name, then more will turn in, versus turning away.

Eventually, the mainland Shouters were completely dissociated by LSM. Why? Was it because of things getting weird, like worshipping WL as God incarnate? How big was/is the Lord Changshou sect? How much influence?

Or was it to protect people in the Mainland from persecution? I remember where a couple of people got caught with something like 30,000 LSM Bibles. The LSM denied any knowledge. Like they sell 30,000 Bibles for someone's birthday party, or something? Doesn't seem like their blatant denial was to protect the guy on the ground in China. Quite the opposite. Too bad for him.

_________________________________

I kind of thought of this thread as a companion to the "Asian mind and the Western mind" thread. 1. What has been happening on the ground?

All I know is that there is a report that the Lord Changshou ("Witness Lee is Lord") sect of the Shouters supposedly gave out 15 million tracts in 1995. That WL proudly claimed the Shouters, then later his followers disavowed them completely (I also know that at one point he complained that people were trying to make him God). That there was a lot of sustained activity, but now nobody is talking. And that's about it. The Bamboo Curtain has seemingly closed.

_______________________

The other thing worth mentioning is 2. How does what is happening on the ground reflect the various cultural variables at play? Like how the Shouters and EL take the "dispensations" of the Brethren and run with it. Supposedly WL told the mainland Shouters that the Age of the Word was over, and now it was the Age of the Spirit. You can see this idea that it is a new day, with new rules. So Leadership can take from the Bible whatever rules seem fit for this new age and new day. The rest are discarded as from an old dispensation. "Oh, that's from the law. We don't care about the law. We are under grace". Or whatever it is you want to ignore.

If you think that I'm being overboard, I remember hearing when WL passed that it was now the Age of Small Potatoes. No more Age of Spiritual Giants. This was spoken from the Blendeds, from the podium. What biblical reference was given to support this idea? None. It was just convenient for the current Leadership to announce that the rules had changed.

So when the EL Leadership says that the age of the Bible is over, and now God is speaking thru a college drop-out, it really isn't too far off the mark of WL. And both instances are arguably manifestations of a particular cultural imperative.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I think credibility is a good topic. WL certainly liked the idea that several tens of millions of Christians were under his wing. His pleasure was evident as he announced the figures. Suddenly the LC wasn't a fringe group but a real player on the scene.

Eventually, the mainland Shouters were completely dissociated by LSM. Why? Was it because of things getting weird, like worshipping WL as God incarnate? How big was/is the Lord Changshou sect? How much influence?

Credibility is interesting because had LC members in China not been so extreme, that would have been by far, the best card that Lee was holding. Even though the supposed millions of LCers in China were still used as bragging rights over the years, that has gradually stopped. Why? It's related to what has been mentioned. The Shouters are an extremist group in China that have spawned other groups like the EL.

It would be a publicity nightmare to claim credit for the Shouters as Lee had once done, and LC leaders know that. LC leaders here want to disavow any linkages from an official level. Even though I have no doubt that leaders are in contact with LCers there, everything is now unofficial. What has essentially happened is something that had the greatest potential to be a point of credibility to the LC has instead become something that must be swept under the rug. The true inner workings of this China and U.S. LC linkage is only accessible to those "in the know." It's ironic indeed, but probably for the better.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Credibility is interesting because had LC members in China not been so extreme, that would have been by far, the best card that Lee was holding.

And why did the LC in China become so extreme, and unbalanced? Was this coincidence? I think not - I think WL stressed novelty, so much so that in places where orthodoxy wasn't clearly established it was simply ignored, and his followers went deep into heterodoxy. Had WL been more respectful of the "low gospel" - you know the stuff Christians have been preaching for 2,000 years - perhaps the effort might have been saved. I believe that by pushing his supposedly "high peak" theology onto a society with little solid base in Christian fundamentals, and with its own cultural prerogatives, it got a life of its own.

All of this is easy to see in hindsight, of course; it always is. Who could have known? Still, it shows the particular fruit of WL's particular gospel, just as much as the recognized groups elsewhere in the world, and as much as the "rebel" GLA and Brasilian off-shoots. They're all following WL's teachings and example.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Even though the supposed millions of LCers in China were still used as bragging rights over the years, that has gradually stopped. Why? It's related to what has been mentioned. The Shouters are an extremist group in China that have spawned other groups like the EL.

It would be a publicity nightmare to claim credit for the Shouters as Lee had once done, and LC leaders know that. LC leaders here want to disavow any linkages from an official level. . . What has essentially happened is something that had the greatest potential to be a point of credibility to the LC has instead become something that must be swept under the rug. .

Suppose the official WL biography read, "God's humble bondslave, whose efforts resulted in the creation of hundreds of churches worldwide, with tens of thousands of Christian believers whose lives have been spiritually deepened, and whose walk enriched, as well as several million in China who worship him as God incarnate." That last clause doesn't really sit so well, but guess what? It's apparently just as true as the part about hundreds of churches worldwide.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

now nobody is talking. And that's about it. The Bamboo Curtain has seemingly closed.

I do want to express my apologies if I seem disrespectful of other cultures and peoples. Sometimes I like a turn of phrase without considering how it may read, to others.

Originally Posted by aron

WL told the mainland Shouters that the Age of the Word was over, and now it was the Age of the Spirit. You can see in this idea that it is a new day, with new rules, and a new Top Dog. .

There are strong echoes of the "Age Turners" theme, always popular with WL's troops, in the heterodox LC off-shoots. The theme is, "It's a new day. Meet the new Boss - me". That goes for WN, WL, the Blendeds, TC, DYL, the Lord Changshou Shouters and the EL. Each took the Brethren teaching of different ages and dispensations and personalized, subjectified, even personified it. In turn, each "new" dynasty tried to be complete and entire, with each "new" Leader as both the center and circumference of the world. No one can steal any shade.

Look at TC with his Lieutenants. He never let any of them rise too high. Any who prospered at the work were relocated. Don't let them build too much - they might compete. So he'd knock it down, rather than let anyone else succeed. Same thing with WL and his various "moves" and "flows". The MR fiasco is Exhibit A. Whipping up turmoil, always keeping people off balance. Don't let anyone get too established. That way, the only one able to be solidly established was him and his ministry.

Should we have any doubt that this isn't also happening on mainland China among those who took WL's ministry as their chosen vehicle? Perhaps even on scales nearly unimaginable to us on the outside?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Suppose the official WL biography read, "God's humble bondslave, whose efforts resulted in the creation of hundreds of churches worldwide, with tens of thousands of Christian believers whose lives have been spiritually deepened, and whose walk enriched, as well as several million in China who worship him as God incarnate." That last clause doesn't really sit so well, but guess what? It's apparently just as true as the part about hundreds of churches worldwide.

Remember the Whistler quarantine of Titus Chu? One of their chief complaints was that WL told TC not to go to China, but he did any way. TC's response to the Blendeds was basically, "who do you think you are, telling me not to minister in China, the place I was born?" (If only TC had the same courage when facing WL.)

This Lord Changshou ("Witness Lee is Lord") sect of the Shouters is a real eyeopener concerning Lee, LSM, and the Blindeds. Apparently they really got Lee's "god-men" high peak ministry.

As for me, I plan to live out the rest of my short life here on earth musing on and ministering His "low" gospel.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

And why did the LC in China become so extreme, and unbalanced? Was this coincidence? I think not - I think WL stressed novelty, so much so that in places where orthodoxy wasn't clearly established it was simply ignored, and his followers went deep into heterodoxy.

An interesting thing to consider about the LC in China is that the passing of the torch from Nee to Lee coincided with the communist takeover. Shortly thereafter, Nee had faded into the background. That’s not to say that Lee was automatically viewed as Nee’s immediate successor in China, because he had been sent to Taiwan. His initial leader status in China remains largely unknown. But what we do know is that by the 90/80’s these groups in China had emerged who were worshiping Lee Changshou. So it’s safe to say that he had a large amount of influence there despite not actually being present.

Regarding communist China, the main point I wanted to focus in on is that the Lee-centric LC in China was cultivated in a culture of communism, unlike the Nee version which perhaps was more concerned about Western imperialism. What does this all mean? One thing is that for the practice of the LC to take place, it was necessary to defy the government. Nothing wrong with defying the government for the sake of one’s beliefs. Other groups did it too. But it involved crossing a threshold, a point of no return. Most importantly, these kind of groups developed in the wild. Again, nothing wrong with that, per se, but it’s an important consideration in understanding things. Ultimately, such an environment is perfect for following a leader who believes in novelty. All the traditional constraints are nullified by the action of defying one’s government.

In the perplexing world of standing against the powers that be, persecution is an understood consequence, even an expectation. In other words, traditional Christian orthodoxy likely meant nothing to Chinese LC members (even less than what it means to members here). Criticism of what the LC in China was doing also would have been trivial. Members already knew the government was after them, so what was it to them if others felt their group was extreme? Interesting things to consider.

Basically, what I think this means is that the communist environment was right to cultivate extremism. It must be reiterated that I don’t say this to make light of the suffering that those in China have been subjected to, but my point is that the byproduct of such suffering doesn’t necessarily mean something special. It can produce positive or negative results. When it breeds extremism like what is seen with the Shouters, then something is wrong. When it breeds groups like the Lord Changshou sect, then something is really wrong. When it breeds groups like the Eastern Lightning, something is fundamentally wrong.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

the main point I wanted to focus in on is that the Lee-centric LC in China was cultivated in a culture of communism, unlike the Nee version which perhaps was more concerned about Western imperialism. What does this all mean? One thing is that for the practice of the LC to take place, it was necessary to defy the government. . . . these kind of groups developed in the wild. . .

By the late '80s the Lord Changshou Shouters were evident, and by the mid-'90s apparently distributed several millions of tracts. Other than that, really nothing apparent. Perhaps they number in the thousands at this point, or tens of thousands, or perhaps in the millions. Perhaps they've splintered and/or morphed into something unrecognizable.

As Freedom says, these groups essentially developed in the wild, with no shepherding and no oversight. I've little doubt that those who were promoting Lee's ministry presented him as Nee's "closest co-worker", disciple, and (importantly) spiritual heir. Likely widespread LSM literature distribution (we know smugglers got caught with 30,000 LSM Bibles in the early '00s), with Chinese translations of Lee's teachings, many cribbed from 19th century Bible Study lesson books, all boiled down to a few shoutable slogans.

What would happen to Lee's simplistic and deviant theology, set loose in that culture? Let's see . . . absolute submission to Group Leadership. Tight operational control (evidently LSM largely lost this, in the mainland. . . maybe never had it?). And, importantly, identity with the group. In the USA, you can go from one Christian group to another, and still be "you", a Christian believer. In China, people don't exist so much as they belong - the collective defines existence on nearly absolute terms. To violate group norms is an unthinkable deviation, an unforgivable crime. In the West we have a hard time even comprehending the ramifications of this. (But the LCs offered a taste).

So what happens, as Freedom suggests, when the group identity is fostered, there, in an illegal underground sect? What happens when teachings that repeatedly test the bounds of orthodoxy begin to circulate in a population that's group-centric, uninformed, isolated, and superstitious?

In the early to mid-'90s there was a lot of talk in the LCs about the "Lord's move in China". We saw videos, smuggled out, and heard first-hand reports from visitors and recent emigrees. Lee exulted from the podium. It looked promising, exciting, dynamic. Then, post-Lee, the subject ceased. Just disappeared. Leaders disavowed relations, and members knew better - don't mention it. Case closed.

Of course the LSM would have "nothing to do" with groups like the Lord Changshou Shouters and Eastern Lightning. But they claim full ownershipof hundreds of officially sanctioned churches around the globe, for waves of publications churned out by the One Trumpet of the Age, for unquestioning allegiance by tens of thousands, and Full-Time Training centers and Ministry Stations and Migrations for the Body. To me it's like a doctor who touts the "cure" and pretends the "side effects" are merely coincidental, with no associations whatsoever.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

In Asian culture, people don't exist so much as they belong - the collective defines existence on nearly absolute terms.

I think this is one of the most striking features of Eastern vs Western thought. In Chinese culture, the individual's identity is almost completely determined by his/her relations vis-a-vis the collective. Thus one's concept of, and relations to, "the church" tends to dominate one's perspective of self.

Contrast this to Jesus, who continually broke the barriers of Us and Them, Chosen versus Rejected, "clean" and "unclean", reaching those who were by all societal standards the truly unreachable. The serial sinners, the crazy people in the tombs, the lepers, etc. "Self" or identity to Jesus was framed solely by obedience to the Father's will, and that often put Him at odds with not only the larger society but also His intimates.

And even when His works were of the magnitude that the larger society attempted to coalesce around Him, to "make Him King" as it were (Jo 6:15), and to identify themselves fully with Him (so they thought), He'd break free and go away. His kingdom, His world was of the heavens and not of this earth.

Yet how many of us are aware of this? Rather we clot together in the Least Common Denominator which is usually shaped by our native culture. To think that we can separate the passage of the gospel through society with the native strands of that society itself is wishful thinking, at best. That's why WL's restoration narrative, that "God raised up a fresh and unsullied work in China's virgin soil" was self-serving delusion. This willful naivete allowed a system of error to preserve itself, propagate and grow. The little mustard seed indeed became a great tree. We were there, we saw it.

Originally Posted by aron

What happens when the group identity is fostered, there in China, in an illegal underground sect? What happens when teachings that repeatedly test the bounds of orthodoxy begin to circulate in a population that's group-centric, uninformed, isolated, and superstitious?

I think Freedom's point that just as the social setting of virulent and long-standing resentment against Western imperialism was the backdrop (and perhaps even motive force) for WN's Little Flock experience, so was the repressive Communist totalitarianism with the mainland Shouters of WL.

Because of the repression, the isolation, and the culture of silence, we may never know what happened there. All we know in the USA was that at some point the Leadership of LSM realized there was no way to put a good "spin" on the story, so they dropped it. The Cone of Silence descended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1eUIK9CihA

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As for me, I plan to live out the rest of my short life here on earth musing on and ministering His "low" gospel.

Yes. Isn't it amazing how high the "low gospel" really is!?!

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Isn't it amazing how high the "low gospel" really is!?!

And safe, too. I daresay you won't end up worshipping the wrong person.

[Freedom]

I think Freedom's point that just as the social setting of virulent and long-standing resentment against Western imperialism was the backdrop (and perhaps even motive force) for WN's Little Flock experience, so was the repressive Communist totalitarianism with the mainland Shouters of WL.

Because of the repression, the isolation, and the culture of silence, we may never know what happened there. All we know in the USA was that at some point the Leadership of LSM realized there was no way to put a good "spin" on the story, so they dropped it. The Cone of Silence descended.

The more I've thought about it, the more it seems likely that the Shouters developed mostly independent of the Little Flock movement. For all we know, people living in China were blitzed with literature in the 80's. There need not be any prior connection to Nee. Of course all we can do is speculate, but I think the important point is that two different groups developed within different points in history with two completely different sets of rules.

While it may have been convenient for LSM to attempt to take credit for the larger movement of underground Christians in China, as it turns out, the LSM closest linkage to China is an extremist group.

[aron]

Last fall the popular news magazine Phoenix Weekly carried this article on the relationship between Christianity and cults in China. Of the most active cults identified by the Chinese government, more than half have their origins in the Chinese church. Dismissing the facile conclusion that China’s house churches are a breeding ground for cults, the article instead takes a sophisticated look at a variety of factors, including China’s own folk traditions and the impact of the reform and opening policy upon the Chinese peasantry. Particularly interesting is the acknowledgment that the removal of denominations in the 1950s contributed to the church’s vulnerability to cults and heresies. Rather than being the source of cults, the article contends, the house churches have become the victim. As the government is currently taking a tougher stance toward cults, the article’s suggestion that the government be more flexible in dealing with house churches in order to root out cults is especially timely.

Understanding Why Cults Fly Under the Banner of Christianity
‪In recent years, the Chinese church has continued to send out warnings to be on guard against heretical cults. Since 2000, “Tianfeng”, the magazine of the Three-Self Patriotic Movement National Committee and the China Christian Council has published more than 40 articles related to this topic. Of these articles, more than 10 are related to Eastern Lightning (Almighty God). It could be said that this heretical cult has aroused the most attention of the Two Councils*. This is because Eastern Lightning has been the most destructive to the Chinese church.

‪An important question triggered by Eastern Lightning is: why the surge of cults from Christianity in recent years?

‪In July of 2009, the author found 14 officially named cults posted on the Chinese government's website. These include the Shouters (呼喊派), the Disciple Society (门徒会), the Lingling Sect (灵灵教), All Sphere Church (全范围教会), Lord God Sect (主神教), New Testament Church (新约教会), Guanyin Method (观音法门), Anointed King (被立王), the Unification Church (统一教), Three Grades of Servants (三班仆人派), True Buddha School (灵仙真佛宗), Children of the Heavenly Father (天父的儿女), Dami Mission (达米宣教会), and World Elijah Gospel Mission Society (世界以利亚福音宣教会). Of the 14 cults named, 12 of them fly under the banner of Christianity. Three of the groups (the Unification Church, the Dami Mission Society, and the World Elijah Gospel Mission Society) are from South Korea. The New Testament Church has its roots in Hong Kong and Taiwan. The remaining eight cults are all homegrown Mainland Chinese cults. It is true that the Shouters arrived by way of Witness Lee (李常受) from America; however, Lee himself was sent out of the country by Watchman Nee (聚会处), leader of the Little Flock churches on the eve of the Communist Liberation. Therefore, at its root the Shouters are a homegrown group.

So it is understandable why people raise the question, why do these cults fly under the banner of Christianity? And, why do the majority of cults that label themselves Christian come from Mainland China? Does it have something to do with the popularization of Christianity or with folk Christianity?

‪Another noteworthy phenomenon is that, among the eight homegrown cults, aside from the Shouters, there are two additional cults that derive from the Shouters: the Lord God Sect and the Anointed King. In addition, the All Sphere Church (also known as the Criers (哭派) or Born Again Criers (哭重生派)), the Disciple Society, and Three Grades of Servants all certainly have a connection with the Shouters. If this is true, six of the eight homegrown cults belong to or are associated with the Shouters, which accounts for more than half of those cults. Moreover, there are several cults that were not included among the 14 cults but are viewed as heretical sects. The Changshou Sect (常受教), the Mainland China Administrative Deacon Station (中华大陆行政执事站), and Eastern Lightning were all originally were born out of the Shouters.

‪Because the Shouter's origins lie in the Little Flock church (聚会处), some have suggested that there is some kind of intrinsic link between the cults produced by Christianity and Little Flock. Also, because most of these cults that fly under the Christian banner proclaim that the end of the world is coming soon (a pre-millennialist theology), some see this as a major feature of cults. Thus it is worth exploring the relationship between cults of Christianity and pre-millennialism.

‪ Why Fly Under the Banner of Christianity?‪

Why are there so many cults that fly under the banner of Christianity? In recent years, those inside and outside of the church have been considering this question. ‪

‪Some scholars believe it is because Christians in the countryside have a low level of education. "There are not many people who can recognize enough characters to read the Bible. Lack of spiritual knowledge and uninformed faith easily leads them astray. The countryside lacks doctors and medicine. Many people believe in God because they searched for another god to no avail and so converted to another religion. Their faith only rises to the level of a rudimentary quest for happiness and security. In the depths of their spirit, there is not a real understanding of God. So if there is any excuse for superstitious thinking, it will seduce them into following it. Vast expanses of grassroots churches lack spiritual preachers. This gives false prophets an opportunity to lure believers into heresy."

‪Another scholar in Hong Kong compared the church situation between Hong Kong and the Mainland. He believes that there are fewer cults in Hong Kong because Hong Kong has protected traditional church denominations. This means that the church has the ability to resist heretical cults.

The situation for mainland churches, however, is quite different. After the Communist Liberation, mainland Christianity broke all ties with overseas churches and also "cut off contact between the church and the orthodox doctrine of the Christian tradition." Once the church lacked the doctrinal and traditional mechanisms for self-examination to guard against splits and deviations, "it prompted a loss in the protective equipment against heresy, particularly against syncretism between Christianity and traditional folk religions. This syncretism is the basic form of practically every heretical Christian cult that has appeared in China and has ties to Christianity. This also explains why a large number of Christian heretical cults have appeared in China." ‪

‪Scholars from Henan province are studying the question of why Henan province is becoming a center for Christianity and cults. In addition to the views cited by the two individuals above, these scholars also note how some house churches are "anxious for quick results." Some people are sent out to evangelize without first having a solid grounding in theology. They themselves only half understand the faith and they can very easily go astray.

Furthermore, the faith of many ordinary believers is built on a foundation of miraculous experiences; this means they are easily misled by heresy. In addition, government suppression of house churches forces members to hide, much like "secret societies." Their lack of space for communication and interaction means that they can easily become breeding grounds for heresies.

Another important effect on Christianity is the folk religion idea of "The Birth of the King of Light Closes the Eschatological Circle" (明王出世、末劫收圆). This idea blends together with the Messiah concept in Christian pre-millennialism, which claims that "Christ has already been born on earth and has established a thousand-year kingdom, and the world must go through cataclysms. One must convert to avoid ruin" and so on.

‪There are many scholars who analyze Chinese social transformation issues from such aspects as sociology, looking for reasons why there are so many heretical cults in China. They believe that after the Reform and Opening Up, various problems such as injustices and poverty among the lower social classes, coupled with fierce competition, environmental pollution, food safety, and corruption have caused people to lose hope. Because of this, people are particularly vulnerable to absorbing the Armageddon propaganda espoused by heretical cults.

‪I believe that the aforementioned investigation has a great deal of merit. One additional point needs to be made. Since Martin Luther and the Reformation, Christianity has promoted the idea that "everyone is a priest." Although at the time this idea was a refutation of Roman Catholic sacred rule and played an important role in the liberation of human nature, it also laid a foundation for a great number of Protestant sectarian phenomena. Since everyone has a right to interpret the Bible, some people flaunt their own interpretation of the Bible as the only correct interpretation. When a person can win over a number of faithful with his (or her) preaching, and claim to be Christ returned and demand to be worshipped, it becomes a heresy. This also explains why more heretical cults emerge from Protestantism than from Catholicism.

‪Cults Borrow Pre-millennialism to Confuse Congregants
‪ ‪Is there a relationship between Christian cults and pre-millennialism's (including dispensationalism) proclamation of the end times?

‪The vast majority of cults that fly under the banner of Christianity proclaim the impending end of the world or that it has already arrived. In addition, the cult leaders claim to be “the returned” Christ, and only those who believe in him (or her) can be saved. Those who do not believe are choosing death. Because of this, some see eschatology as the major feature of cults. I believe that, on some level, this theory holds water; however, we need to be clear about what Christian eschatology is.

‪Christianity has been deeply influenced by Jewish apocalyptic literature. Particularly in the early church, there was a firm belief that the end of the world was rapidly approaching and that Christ would come again to establish the new heavens and new earth.

‪‪Throughout the course of history, Christianity has produced three views concerning eschatology. One view is pre-millennialism. This view teaches that Jesus Christ will come soon and that before he returns Satan will start a rebellion on Earth. Various natural and man-made disasters will take place and the power of the "Anti-Christ" will emerge; this is the sign that the end of the world is approaching. Ultimately, Jesus Christ will return to win the battle over Satan and to save those who believe in him. Then he will establish a thousand year reign of the new heavens and new earth. ‪

‪Another view is post-millennialism. This view teaches that with the continuous progress of human society, ultimately humanity will move toward the new millennium. After this, the end of the world will come and Jesus will return to enact the final judgment.

‪The third view is a-millennialism, a view held by a majority of Christian denominations and orthodox denominations. This view discourages speculation on when the end of the world will come.

‪Pre-millennialism is popular among some conservative Christians. In China today, particularly among the network of Shouter house churches, there is a tendency to view every instance of oppression as persecution from “the power of the Anti-Christ." This then increases their conviction of and hope for the coming of the end of the world. This is an important part of the teaching promoted by heretical cults in China.

‪It should be noted also that dispensationalism further develops this pre-millennialist view. This is view is based on the pre-millennialism proposed by Darby, one of the founders of the 19th century Plymouth Brethren movement. He further developed the thinking of the 12th century monk Joachim. Joachim divided the history of mankind into three periods: the first is from creation to the birth of Jesus, known as the "Age of the Law;" the second era is known as the "The Age of the Church," from the suffering of Jesus to the return of Christ; the third era is called, "The Age of the Kingdom," when the returned Christ will rule (this "tripartite theory" of division is what Eastern Lightning uses).

‪But do those who believe in pre-millennialism and dispensationalism belong to heretical cults? I do not agree with this view. In fact, there are many denominations that are NOT heretical cults that hold to such views, such as the Little Flock and Seventh Day Adventists.

‪‪The Shouters and its off-shoots (Lord God Sect, Anointed King, and Eastern Lightning) were all founded by leaders who claimed to be or support someone who claimed to be the "Second Jesus Christ" or the "Female Christ." This is an important mark of distinction between Christian "orthodoxy" and "heresy."

‪Neither pre-millennialism nor dispensationalism are difficult for Chinese peasants to accept because there are many similar points of contact in the understanding of cataclysm (劫变) from Chinese folk religion. Peasant uprisings in Chinese history have often used folk religion's understanding of cataclysm as a method of mobilization. For example, the White Lotus Society divided the history of mankind into three time periods: Qingyang (青阳), Hongyang (红阳), and Baiyang (白阳). ‪

‪In the past, folk religions were popular among those on the bottom rungs of society because they desperately hoped that society could change and their situations would improve. The Reform and Opening Policy in China also affected peasants and opened up new ideas to them. Chinese folk religions provided a basis for their understanding of dispensationalist Christianity. Because they are based on characteristics of dispensationalism, it is rather easy to explain the excess of the heretical teachings that have emerged from the Shouters.

http://www.chinasource.org/resource-...anity-in-china

[aron]

LOCATED ON THE OUTSKIRTS of Daying, the Zhang family home has been the centre of the villagers' religious life since the late 1970s, when the matriarch, who had been feeling frail, pinned her hopes on God and invited her neighbours to come and pray with her.

"Most of the elders here began their faith in God due to illness," says Brother Han, who does not want to give his full name. Before last year's raids, about 100 villagers, a fifth of the total, frequented the home for worship and Bible study. "During the Spring Festival, when all villagers return from their work in the city, the courtyard teems with people," says Han.

Calligraphy on red paper spells out the phrases "Welcome Lord" and "Enter the Sacred City" on the front gate and on every wooden door inside. A whole wall inside is covered with posters and charts explaining the Bible.

In the courtyard is a poster bearing the words "the Local Church". So how closely are the Local Churches and The Shouters affiliated?

According to www.contendingforthefaith.org, a project defending the Local Churches, the two are poles apart.

"The Local Churches, Christian groups whose beliefs and practices are based on the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, have no connection to aberrant religious groups in China, such as The Shouters, Eastern Lightning or the Church of Almighty God, which practise extreme, anti-Christian teachings," a statement on the website claims. However, the practice of calling out the Lord's name at the Local Churches has been a source of confusion. "Although Witness Lee taught the believers to practise calling the Lord's name, he never promoted shouting blindly, much less forming a sect based on this practice," the statement says.

On the same website, an article titled "We are the Local Churches and not The Shouters" says that, due to a lack of understanding of the teachings in the Bible, a minority of worshippers have deviated in their practices, in the process besmirching other groups in the eyes of the general public. The confusion has made it difficult for the authorities to distinguish between groups and it has become convenient for them to denounce any gathering that refuses to join a government-approved church as Shouters, and arrest its members.

http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-m...6/shouted-down

Originally Posted by aron

There is a very interesting photo in this article. It shows the inside of a woman's home, and on the walls are the three schematics, which prominently feature in the RecV Bible.

One shows the "70 weeks". One shows the "Process of God" from the Mystery of Human Life. One shows the "Six Spheres" of the dispensations. The whole wall is covered by these posters. I was like, wow. No connection? Just coincidental? Yeah, right.

[Freedom]

‪Because the Shouter's origins lie in the Little Flock church (聚会处), some have suggested that there is some kind of intrinsic link between the cults produced by Christianity and Little Flock. Also, because most of these cults that fly under the Christian banner proclaim that the end of the world is coming soon (a pre-millennialist theology), some see this as a major feature of cults. Thus it is worth exploring the relationship between cults of Christianity and pre-millennialism.

A lot of interesting points in this article, and it's worth consideration that the appeal found groups like the Shouters and others that have spawned from them is simply the appeal of escapism from the harsh realities of life in China.

When you think about the way that the LC operates (in any part of the world), it is reliant upon members who are relatively 'unlearned' when it comes to the Bible. They need those who are easily impressionable. They need those who are uncontent with what life has to offer. And what does the LC promise them? It promises them the world and then some.

[Freedom]

According to www.contendingforthefaith.org, a project defending the Local Churches, the two are poles apart.

"The Local Churches, Christian groups whose beliefs and practices are based on the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, have no connection to aberrant religious groups in China, such as The Shouters, Eastern Lightning or the Church of Almighty God, which practise extreme, anti-Christian teachings," a statement on the website claims. However, the practice of calling out the Lord's name at the Local Churches has been a source of confusion. "Although Witness Lee taught the believers to practise calling the Lord's name, he never promoted shouting blindly, much less forming a sect based on this practice," the statement says.

On the same website, an article titled "We are the Local Churches and not The Shouters" says that, due to a lack of understanding of the teachings in the Bible, a minority of worshippers have deviated in their practices, in the process besmirching other groups in the eyes of the general public. The confusion has made it difficult for the authorities to distinguish between groups and it has become convenient for them to denounce any gathering that refuses to join a government-approved church as Shouters, and arrest its members.

http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-m...6/shouted-down

The DCP has graduated from putting a spin on things to speaking outright lies. WL referred his followers in China as Shouters, so why is the DCP unable to admit that???

Originally Posted by Witness Lee

Today in mainland China, Satan hates the churches that meet in the homes. These churches comprise more than fifty million believers. The authorities condemn the “shouters,” who are predominantly those who meet in the homes. Some saints have written telling us how strong and revived these home meetings in mainland China are. They have no apparent leaders. Whoever tries to be the leader is asking for trouble because the authorities focus their attention on the leaders. However, when everyone is a leader, the authorities can do nothing.

Witness Lee, Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord's Recovery, Book 1: The Vision and Definite Steps for the Practice of the New Way, Chapter 10, Section 2

[Freedom]

Another noteworthy phenomenon is that, among the eight homegrown cults, aside from the Shouters, there are two additional cults that derive from the Shouters: the Lord God Sect and the Anointed King. In addition, the All Sphere Church (also known as the Criers (哭派) or Born Again Criers (哭重生派)), the Disciple Society, and Three Grades of Servants all certainly have a connection with the Shouters. If this is true, six of the eight homegrown cults belong to or are associated with the Shouters, which accounts for more than half of those cults. Moreover, there are several cults that were not included among the 14 cults but are viewed as heretical sects. The Changshou Sect (常受教), the Mainland China Administrative Deacon Station (中华大陆行政执事站), and Eastern Lightning were all originally were born out of the Shouters.

The local public security bureau has a different version of the story. It says its officers raided an illegal gathering of an evil cult and seized nearly 800 copies of Morning Revival, The Collected Works of Watchman Nee and the Recovery Version of the Bible. The Domestic Security and Anti-terrorism Team at the Public Security Bureau of Pingdingshan city, which has jurisdiction over Ye county, identifies those three titles as being materials used by "evil cult" The Shouters.

The fact that so many of these aberrant groups have ties to or have spawned from the Shouters is a big point of concern. Even more concerning is the fact that these groups have been caught with and seem to primarily use LSM material.

Given that the DCP is on the record calling the Shouters an "aberrant group", I think that they owe us an explanation as to why they would so brazenly contradict what Lee had stated about LC members in China being called Shouters. It seems that the Shouters are the ones who keep getting caught with LSM material. So the spin that DCP puts on everything to save face is to tell us that the main group in China using LSM material is an aberrant group?!?!? Really DCP????

You just can't make this kind of stuff up, and ultimately, the harsh reality for the LSM and DCP is that it's a lose/lose situation. Attempt to take credit for the LC members in China, and that necessitates admitting to an association with all these questionable groups. Attempt to pretend like there's no linkage to any of these groups and then they're left trying to explain why all these groups are the ones who primarily use LSM material.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Given that the DCP is on the record calling the Shouters an "aberrant group", I think that they owe us an explanation as to why they would so brazenly contradict what Lee had stated about LC members in China being called Shouters. It seems that the Shouters are the ones who keep getting caught with LSM material. So the spin that DCP puts on everything to save face is to tell us that the main group in China using LSM material is an aberrant group?!?!? Really DCP????

These leaders at LSM have become little more than politicians with a platform loosely based on the Bible. I was told for years that LC folks in China were derogatorily called the "shouters." Then, when they get bad publicity press, they disavow any connection with them.

That's like the guy who got busted with a couple suitcases of LSM goods. It was one of the lead stories back during the tract wars between Anaheim and Cleveland. Titus Chu basically said "shame on you" to the Blendeds for lying about the connection to him. Then LSM forced the brother to lie about his connections. Don't they understand anything about honesty and our God?

Here is the article about LSM's Bungled Bible Scheme. The concluding paragraph is below.

What happened to the Lord’s Blessing?
Whatever the underlying motives, this opportunity to fulfill LSM’s mission—to promote the ministries of brothers Nee and Lee—was lost. Rather than supplying Bibles to saints in mainland China, thousands of Recovery versions were confiscated, and brothers’ lives were jeopardized. Even worse, LSM could be perceived as fearful, reclusive, and disloyal. To the outside observer, it might appear that LSM allowed Brother Li and his two mainland helpers to be “hung out to dry,” left “twisting in the wind.” It appears only God’s intervention in the political sphere, delivered Brother Li from execution. Obviously this case wasn’t a repetition of “Project Pearl.” In that celebrated 1981 operation, 1 Million Bibles were successfully smuggled into mainland China 32 where believers were crying out for God’s Word. Now, 20 years later, LSM’s Bible-smuggling scheme failed. Why? Evidently God did not bless this project, at least not compared to “Project Pearl.” Perhaps we should ask: Is this an indication of God’s disapproval? Perhaps LSM’s activities should be evaluated against Watchman Nee’s “blueprint.” After all, Brother Nee was the “master builder” of God’s recovery work in mainland China. That land was the scene of W. Nee’s labor, imprisonment and “martyrdom.” Isn’t it appropriate to consider his assessment of what meets with “divine approval”? Over 60 years ago, Watchman Nee warned, “Whenever a special leader…or organization becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places…the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest.” In view of this, shouldn’t we consider whether the failure of LSM’s Bible-smuggling scheme indicates that God doesn’t want “LSM-ministry churches” in China? Does the withholding of God’s blessing imply that He wants genuine local churches—with “administration local, each answering to the Lord”—according to Brother Nee’s vision, rather than “LSM-ministry churches”?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These leaders at LSM have become little more than politicians with a platform loosely based on the Bible. I was told for years that LC folks in China were derogatorily called the "shouters." Then, when they get bad publicity press, they disavow any connection with them.

I was told the same about shouters being a derogatory name for LC members in China. It seems that the complete denial of any connection to the Shouters is something much more recent. The most recent DCP statement about how the local churches "have no connection to aberrant religious groups in China, such as The Shouters" looks to be a statement from 2014. It looks like the concern that prompted them to lie in such an outright manner is the connection between the Shouters and the Eastern Lightning.

Here is what Chris Wilde is on the record saying:
Li's group is known in China as the "Shouters" because adherents tend to shout out words of devotion to God. Wilde said the name was a pejorative one used by the authorities, while Li's friend in Hong Kong said the preferred name was the "local church in the name of the city where it is located" - for example, the Local Church in Hong Kong.

Wilde said there was no official affiliation between Living Stream Ministry and the church the Bibles were going to, although there was a "strong spiritual bond" between them.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...bible-smuggler

[aron]

Here's a photo taken in 2013 in one of the LC meeting places. They have a poster on the wall with the 70 weeks of Daniel from the RecV, the "ages" of the God's dispensations, and the Processed God diagram. I don't remember seeing something so blatant and open, in the USA in the officially sanctioned LC meeting halls. Clearly they're affiliated with WL and the LSM.

So why disavow them?

Maybe because of persecution. "To save the saints from suffering at the hands of authorities". Okay, then why did WL proudly claim them in the 1990s? Because he did. That was clear. So why the reversal? Was WL in error, in so doing? That's impossible - WL can never be in error!

Or, because the Shouters in the mainland 'misunderstood the teachings' of WL and WN and became deviant? Maybe. Or maybe they understood them too well. If you know what I mean.

[aron]

Here is the official LSM Recovery "70 weeks" image. Compare this with the one in China on the wall of the meeting place and ask yourself if there's any affiliation. Or is it all just coincidence and misunderstanding?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's a photo taken in 2013 in one of the LC meeting places. They have a poster on the wall with the 70 weeks of Daniel from the RecV, the "ages" of the God's dispensations, and the Processed God diagram. I don't remember seeing something so blatant and open, in the USA in the officially sanctioned LC meeting halls. Clearly they're affiliated with WL and the LSM.

aron, where did this image come from?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

aron, where did this image come from?

That chart is in the Back of the Recovery Version. It was developed for one of the trainings.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

aron, where did this image come from?

The photo was from the 2013 South China Morning Post article, titled "Shouted Down". That was the link that I provided on Post #17.

http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-m...6/shouted-down

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I was told the same about shouters being a derogatory name for LC members in China. It seems that the complete denial of any connection to the Shouters is something much more recent. The most recent DCP statement about how the local churches "have no connection to aberrant religious groups in China, such as The Shouters" looks to be a statement from 2014. It looks like the concern that prompted them to lie in such an outright manner is the connection between the Shouters and the Eastern Lightning.

Theresa Zimmerman-Liu cites a 2011 interview with LC leaders in which they claim ~1,500 Local Churches in Mainland China. So what happened? Seems a drastic decline from WL's claim of 15 years prior, of having 20 million mainland Shouters. Maybe the figure of 1,500 assemblies was the LC attempt to hold onto a loyal core. And then they gave up on even that, and pretended there was nothing?

The group under study here is known by its members as the “Local Churches,” but is called by its critics the “Shouters.”

Despite its categorization as a “cult” in both the U.S. and China, as of 2011, church leaders reported approximately 4,000 Local Churches throughout the world outside of China,and another 1,200-1,500 congregations within China’s borders.

https://wpsa.research.pdx.edu/papers...14%20paper.pdf

See footnote 2. She also cites an Oct 2013 interview with LC leaders, in which they discuss LC expansion in rural areas.

Meanwhile, Local Church membership expanded quickly and dramatically, particularly in inland areas. (83)

I don't see Zimmerman-Liu discussing the Lord Changshou Shouters, who'd be considered "cult" by all orthodox Christian observers. Yet I suspect this is largely the reason for the public disavowal. LC leaders live on the fringe of orthodoxy, yet the mainland groups went too far and had to be let go.

[aron]

One scholar, Daniel Bays, writes,

The 'Local Church', which is sometimes called by its adherents 'churches in the Lord's recovery', is a movement partially derived from the ideas of Watchman Nee (Ni Tuoshen, 1903-72) and his movement, called by some the Little Flock. A cardinal principle of Nee from the 1920s on was the desire to supersede denominationalism, which he despised as a pernicious Western creation, and to have just one church - the 'local church' - in each city or locality. When Nee was imprisoned in the 1950s, the legacy of his movement was elaborated by his followers, including a former lieutenant, Witness Lee (Li Changshou), in Taiwan and then in North America.

The Little Flock remnants in China which had survived the years of persecution linked up around 1980 with missionary representatives of the Local Church movement based outside China. The result was a spectrum of groups, to greater or lesser degrees standing in the tradition of Nee's old movement, mixed with the newer doctrines of Witness Lee. In the 1980s, some of the groups, especially those in Zhejiang province, engaged in loud verbal behaviours during worship, and were dubbed the 'shouters' (huhanpai). Several cases of violent disruption among Protestants were associated with their activities in the 1980s. These elements, rightly or wrongly, were denounced by the government and by the Three-Self Patriotic Movement as sectarian and illegitimate, and have been persecuted on and off ever since. In the early 2000s, the 'shouters' were still on the list of 'evil cults' pursued by the authorities. During 2002, some foreign representatives of the Local Church reportedly announced an end to the relationships with the 'shouters'. Thus the links between them are uncertain at the present.

(in, Encyclopedia of Contemporary Chinese Culture, Davis E, ed. Routledge 2005)

Originally Posted by aron

Seems like they began to formally end relations in 2002? Yet LC leaders privately admit affiliation with ~1,500 assemblies, ten years later, per Theresa Zimmerman-Liu?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I don't see Zimmerman-Liu discussing the Lord Changshou Shouters, who'd be considered "cult" by all orthodox Christian observers. Yet I suspect this is largely the reason for the public disavowal. LC leaders live on the fringe of orthodoxy, yet the mainland groups went too far and had to be let go.

The Shouters got their name by taking to heart a practice that is common-place in the LC. Perhaps they took it to an unprecedented extreme and it became necessary for Western LCers to downplay any linkage. I guess the downplaying is not all that hard to do, because LCers in the U.S. are far more mild-mannered. The DCP in defense of the LSM controlled LC's has tried to say that Lee didn't advocate mindless shouting, as if the practice the Shouters are taking part in is something completely different than the shouting that happens here. Whatever. But the LC is the only group I know of that advocates any kind of shouting.

Beyond the issue of the Shouters, what I don't see happening is the DCP or any other LC entity mentioning the Lord Changshou sect by name. This is a sect that is problematic for them and it wouldn't be enough to merely claim disassociation. The reason being is that adherents have latched onto Lee in the ultimate way by worshiping him has God. How can you possibly put a spin on that? You simply can't excuse that kind of behavior. While WL didn't necessarily endorse it, he most definitely encouraged it. He needed not tell his followers to worship him. They already did at various levels. Like so many other things, this worship was taken to an extreme by a sect in China.

At a basic level, if a group is obsessed with following Lee, and they choose to worship him, it can be assumed that there must have been some catalyst for that. Such an environment doesn't happen out of the blue.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Beyond the issue of the Shouters, what I don't see happening is the DCP or any other LC entity mentioning the Lord Changshou sect by name. This is a sect that is problematic for them and it wouldn't be enough to merely claim disassociation. The reason being is that adherents have latched onto Lee in the ultimate way by worshiping him as God. How can you possibly put a spin on that? You simply can't excuse that kind of behavior. While WL didn't necessarily endorse it, he most definitely encouraged it. He needed not tell his followers to worship him. They already did at various levels. Like so many other things, this worship was taken to an extreme by a sect in China.

It seems to me that this sort of extreme behavior is just inevitable when one teaches that we are "god-men."

And let's not forget China's 5,000 years history of dynasty / dictatorships. By now, it has become part of their national DNA.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems to me that this sort of extreme behavior is just inevitable when one teaches that we are "god-men."

Exactly. The extremism can be found in one form or another all over the LC. In the U.S. it is somewhat mild, relatively speaking. Aron posted that picture of that meeting place in China with charts all over the wall. Looks a bit extreme in my opinion. It seems that those materials are simply there for purposes of being on display, an 'exhibit' of their treasured ministry material.

In the LC in the U.S., members might not be obsessed with displaying charts everywhere, but there are other forms of extremism, things like PSRP (pray-reading/memorizing outlines).

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

[Certain] adherents have latched onto Lee in the ultimate way by worshiping him has God. How can you possibly put a spin on that? You simply can't excuse that kind of behavior. While WL didn't necessarily endorse it, he most definitely encouraged it. He needed not tell his followers to worship him. They already did at various levels..

Lee-deification is the next logical step in a series of steps already taken, which include God's Wise Master Builder, Deputy God, God's Oracle, etc. And the culture evidently cried out for the next step to be taken. I repeat that his culture wasn't inferior or deficient in some critical aspect. The problem was what WL believed, and sold us, that somehow China was "virgin soil" and that there the gospel somehow returned to its pure roots.

On a related note, Zimmerman-Liu has written a number of articles related to this, including one on "Guangxi" where she gives personal anecdotes about WL and TC and how they displayed their native culture. (Interestingly, she chooses not to elaborate on WL's family ties, and how they affected church dynamics).

https://sociology.ucsd.edu/_files/gr...oSonsofGod.pdf

Elsewhere, one may have read of WN, who converted to Christianity when he saw his mother "lose face" before him. The teen-aged Nee had never imagined such a thing, nor heard of it. And it would be naive to assume that this deeply rooted and unquestioned mentality disappeared when Christian faith took hold; Zimmerman-Liu says Christianity was Sinicized even as China was Christianized... we saw TC and WL playing out stylized Chinese relational culture toward each other in the big meetings. It was obvious what we were looking at, yet we convinced ourselves it was behavior directed from heaven.

Last but not least there's DYL, whose only crime, or "deviation", was in following WL's game plan to the letter. The Brasil case is similar to the PRC where the Lord's recovery movement simply continued forward on the path of teachings and examples established by WN and WL.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Lee-deification is the next logical step in a series of steps already taken, which include God's Wise Master Builder, Deputy God, God's Oracle, etc. And the culture evidently cried out for the next step to be taken. I repeat that his culture wasn't inferior or deficient in some critical aspect. The problem was what WL believed, and sold us, that somehow China was "virgin soil" and that there the gospel somehow returned to its pure roots.

Unfortunately, at a very basic level, the LC is rooted in extremes. The idea members posses that they are part of the one true 'recovered' church is extreme. So many other aspects of the LC are extreme, such as the participation level expected, the financial commitment that is solicited. Take almost any aspect of the LC, and you well see an environment, and a culture where normal is considered deficient. It is no wonder that each extreme was but a stepping stone upon the path to the next extreme.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the LC in the U.S., members might not be obsessed with displaying charts everywhere, but there are other forms of extremism, things like PSRP (pray-reading/memorizing outlines).

In the aftermath of the late 80's "storms" and quarantines, PSRP was developed by some Taiwanese zealots as a means to understand Lee's increasingly abstruse messages. These guys sold PSRP as the ultimate distinguishing characteristic of the Lord's Recovery. Lee and the Blendeds endorsed the practice, while most spiritual men simply began shaking their heads again.

Originally Posted by aron

Lee-deification is the next logical step in a series of steps already taken, which include God's Wise Master Builder, Deputy God, God's Oracle, etc. And the culture evidently cried out for the next step to be taken. I repeat that his culture wasn't inferior or deficient in some critical aspect. The problem was what WL believed, and sold us, that somehow China was "virgin soil" and that there the gospel somehow returned to its pure roots.

Lee completely bought into the idea that Darby was the minister of the age in the 19th century. Nee sold him on that idea. Then the "virgin soil" idea catapulted Nee to a MOTA of the next order. The groundwork was laid, and all the signs of the time pointed to the end, and Lee saw himself as the consummate MOTA. Megalomaniacal illusions guided Lee in his final years. How could he ever be wrong? He would be instrumental to bring the Lord back! What else explains his behavior?

Originally Posted by Freedom

Unfortunately, at a very basic level, the LC is rooted in extremes. The idea members posses that they are part of the one true 'recovered' church is extreme. So many other aspects of the LC are extreme, such as the participation level expected, the financial commitment that is solicited. Take almost any aspect of the LC, and you well see an environment, and a culture where normal is considered deficient. It is no wonder that each extreme was but a stepping stone upon the path to the next extreme.

So well said!

[HERn]

One of my relatives went to Taiwan about 8 years ago and told me of a church that had been pray-reading the same word in a verse for several months and had not yet exhausted the riches.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

One of my relatives went to Taiwan about 8 years ago and told me of a church that had been pray-reading the same word in a verse for several months and had not yet exhausted the riches.

When I attended some of the semi-annual trainings, we had to go to study sessions and these times consisted mainly of pray-reading the outlines. I didn't realize it then, but we were being tricked into doing PSRP.

Anyone in their right mind should have realized that kind of practice is bizarre, but the real issue is the question of why the practice is necessary in the first place. If someone can at least provide a rational for what is being done, then maybe it's worth a second look. But for something absurd to be introduced and even promoted/forced without the necessary discourse, it really makes you wonder about what is at play in the inner workings of the LC.

The LC in the U.S. might be a bit more mild when it comes to some of the extremes, but the same potential and willingness to embrace the absurd exists nonetheless.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Unfortunately, at a very basic level, the LC is rooted in extremes. The idea members posses that they are part of the one true 'recovered' church is extreme. So many other aspects of the LC are extreme, such as the participation level expected, the financial commitment that is solicited. Take almost any aspect of the LC, and you well see an environment, and a culture where normal is considered deficient. It is no wonder that each extreme was but a stepping stone upon the path to the next extreme.

Unfortunately this is a predilection (tendency) of the fall. We go to extremes, and subsequently fall apart. I like to watch teen-agers with pants. At some point the fashionable trend, whether long or short, baggy or tight or stiff, becomes so pronounced that they barely qualify from a functional perspective. But, boy are they cool!

And religion, of course, breeds extremism in spades. So easy to deride the "Sunday-go-to-meeting" Christians or the "Easter-and-Christmas" Christians. Lukewarm, ignorant, shallow, and fake. Yet look at the other end: David Koresh. I could name a dozen or twenty but why bother.

Nobody could doubt that WL was a fanatic. He was. Jesus also was arguably strong, in many ways. (Too strong?) His brothers and parents gathered outside, "He is beside Himself" (Mark 3:21 [NIV]; see also the critique of the scribes in v. 22: "He is possessed").

But the difference is that God approved of the Sinless Son by raising Him from the dead; WL's grave however is with us to this day. Folks, there is a difference. Don't elevate men on this side of the Bema (Judgment Seat).

Yet this was a culture that apparently required men-elevation to cohere. And WN and then WL both felt they were the Man of the Hour, and convinced many of us, either directly - "Brother Lee has the ministry of the age" - or indirectly - "We are for the Lord's recovery of the local church" - to give him the 'mantle' of prophet, oracle, apostle. Every word that proceeded out of his mouth was inspired (well, even a few in FotPR I had to reject; maybe I wasn't 'absolute' enough).

And I'm a Jesus fanatic, or try to be; I believe, and follow. But I try not to take myself too seriously, to acknowledge my many lacks, and forgive others for their sins as I hope they'll forgive mine. This probably mitigates my extremism somewhat.

WL however built a system in which he was held unaccountable, but could judge everyone. His word was truth. Even the Bible could be dismissed, if it didn't line up with his teachings. His every inspiration was held to be the "move of the Lord" or "the feeling of the Body". He led his followers to the edge of orthodoxy, and we wonder why some of them subsequently went over the brink? It shouldn't surprise at all.

Paul said, "Imitate me, as much as I imitate Christ" (1 Cor 11:1, NKJV). But WL's followers taught, "Imitate WL, even if he doesn't imitate Christ." We also heard them say, "Even if he's wrong, he's right." These are culturally-derived mindsets and thought-worlds being expressed. As much as possible, it was covered over with Scripture. But at places, there was no Scripture to be found, and cultural prerogatives and imperatives were left bare. "It's the Age of Small Potatoes; the Age of Spiritual Giants is over". . . but we were sold out, absolute for the program, and it didn't matter. In fact the whole program was to be absolute for the program. This was the kernel of its existence. The "oneness" of the mesmerized.

Think of it this way: one of the current LC leaders occasionally likes to derisively mention a former member who presumed status for himself, referring to his role as "Universal Coordinator of the One New Man". This is recounted in a mocking way from the podium, and all the loyal brothers in front guffaw or chuckle on cue. But if WL took the role, and claimed the title, nobody would guffaw. Why? If WL suddenly was the Wise Master Builder, or Final Apostle to End the Age, nobody snickered. Why? Because the LC culture demanded that we receive it. Everything - the extreme, the unbalanced, the subjective assessments of who was "old" or "cold" or "darkened" or "ambitious" or "divisive" or "rebellious". We took it all.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Yet this was a culture that apparently required men-elevation to cohere. And WN and then WL both felt they were the Man of the Hour, and convinced many of us, either directly - "Brother Lee has the ministry of the age" - or indirectly - "We are for the Lord's recovery of the local church" - to give him the 'mantle' of prophet, oracle, apostle. Every word that proceeded out of his mouth was inspired (well, even a few in FotPR I had to reject; maybe I wasn't 'absolute' enough).

For me, the key to understanding Nee/Lee is to realize how much each man was driven by the desire to be a one man show. For such to happen, it required the purging of detractors, 'threats', or anyone who even had the slightest chance of stealing the limelight. Thus, the culture required to maintain such an environment is inherently toxic. To merely exist in such an environment requires members to set aside that instinctive voice telling them something may be awry.

Once all the 'roadblocks' are removed for a single all-powerful führer to emerge, the next step to demand allegiance to the leader and everyone must line up. But with any such group, that step alone is not enough. The allegiance soon becomes worship. It's a path that only leads in one direction.

In the article that I have linked below, Lee is quoted as saying the following (presumably directed at followers in China):
I have heard that some of you worship me as God and address me as Lord, he wrote in 1991. I am deeply troubled by this. According to the teaching of the Bible, you shall never worship any man as God.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/965/secret-passages

During Lee's lifetime, he was well aware that there were some who wanted to worship him. He obviously didn't take it to be the serious problem that it was, and only went so far as to give his audience a little slap on the wrist. Whether or not Lee wanted to be worshiped or not is largely irrelevant. It's the environment and LC culture that created that desire among members. The path only led in one direction.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

everyone must line up. But with any such group, that step alone is not enough. The allegiance soon becomes worship. It's a path that only leads in one direction..

I think of the quote, "Can we ever do too much for our brother?" Answer: yes.

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the article that I have linked below. . .

The article is printed in 2002, and depicts a person who works for LSM as a literature courier. Compensated or not, the person is clearly doing only one thing: distributing LSM material.

So is he doing this with LSM knowledge? Or do they just sell tens of thousands of copies, to shadowy figures paying cash in the alleyway, no questions asked? Like the 3,000 Bibles that were seized in 2001, that the LSM had no idea about how they got there. No involvement.

It would be interesting to see a timeline of "official" statements vis-a-vis China. From WL telling us mid-'90s that there were tens of millions of shouters, after he'd announced church enrollment figures at all regions of the world (remember that he was an accountant), to the current, "we have no connection, either formal or informal."

Meanwhile, Theresa Zimmerman-Liu says that "LSM leaders" privately tell her of 1,200 to 1,500 churches.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Freedom

During Lee's lifetime, he was well aware that there were some who wanted to worship him. He obviously didn't take it to be the serious problem that it was, and only went so far as to give his audience a little slap on the wrist. Whether or not Lee wanted to be worshiped or not is largely irrelevant. It's the environment and LC culture that created that desire among members. The path only led in one direction.

As some have previously noted, we Christians, at times, have a tendency to get a little fanatical in one way or another. It is simply part and parcel of the human condition. The big trouble comes in when we are not balanced in some way. Either by our brothers and sisters in Christ, the Word of God, our God-given conscience or even good old common sense.

I'm not sure if this is part of the Asian/Chinese culture or not, but Witness Lee never let himself or his teachings and practices be balanced. He could not be measured by anyone or any thing - Not even the very Word of God which he claimed to be a minister of. Over the years, God sent MANY people and circumstances to balance Witness Lee. He rebuffed them all. He seemed to forget that even the most Godly men were, at times, rebuked, corrected and balanced by people God sent into his life. Even King David, a man after God's own heart, was rebuked by the prophet Nathan, and though he repented, he suffered some severe consequences.

After decades of observing the words and actions of our apostle, most of the faithful, true believers became imitators of "our brother Lee". In fact, those who imitated the closest became the most "blended"....and some have even assumed the lofty title of "Blended brothers". Eventually they have assumed not only the work of Lee (as propagators and guardians of The One Publication) but also the person (the spiritual authority - even to the point of proclaiming that they know the "feeling of the Body") aron hits my point better than I can here:

Originally Posted by aron

Paul said, "Imitate me, as much as I imitate Christ" (1 Cor 11:1, NKJV). But WL's followers taught, "Imitate WL, even if he doesn't imitate Christ." We also heard them say, "Even if he's wrong, he's right." These are culturally-derived mindsets and thought-worlds being expressed. As much as possible, it was covered over with Scripture. But at places, there was no Scripture to be found, and cultural prerogatives and imperatives were left bare. "It's the Age of Small Potatoes; the Age of Spiritual Giants is over". . . but we were sold out, absolute for the program, and it didn't matter. In fact the whole program was to be absolute for the program. This was the kernel of its existence. The "oneness" of the mesmerized.

-

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

The article is printed in 2002, and depicts a person who works for LSM as a literature courier. Compensated or not, the person is clearly doing only one thing: distributing LSM material.

The interesting part of it is that journalists aren't experts in the LC, yet they were able to easily summarize what was going on. They in fact, played a part in breaking the story. It was the LSM/DCP who later issued the official denial of everything. The only ones LC leaders have fooled are those who look no further than the LC propaganda websites.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I'm not sure if this is part of the Asian/Chinese culture or not, but Witness Lee never let himself or his teachings and practices be balanced.

It is hard to say what role culture played. It is tempting to say that it was all culture, but then again, an unwillingness to be balanced by other people is a potential problem to anyone in a position of leadership or power. Good leaders recognize this and allow the appropriate checks and balances to be put in place.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Witness Lee

I have heard that some of you worship me as God and address me as Lord, I am deeply troubled by this. According to the teaching of the Bible, you shall never worship any man as God.

Statements like the above should prompt LC members to reconsider just what they are a part of. There are two ways to look at what Lee said. LCers and the DCP might say "Hey look, there's Lee telling people not to worship him."

If only it were that simple...

I look at what Lee said and ask myself how the LC got so extreme. Just look at what Lee is telling members - "you shall never worship any man as God." That is elementary for any Christian. If it needs any amount of reiteration, then there's something wrong. And that is why I say that statements like these should prompt members to reconsider. When you get to the point of worshiping man as God, it is long past time to tell people to stop. If fact, the practice is likely irreversible.

As I have posted previously, much of the problem with the LC is the fact it's rooted in certain extremes. In the LC, you have a ministry that publishes titles such as The Normal Christian Life and The Normal Christian Church Life. Come to find out, 'normal' in the LC always involves something that everyone on the outside has missed. The normal Christian life is equated with practicing something highly esoteric. The normal Christian church life is equated with a territorial franchising scheme. Because there's no true understanding of normal, members have no anchor. It's all too easy to be carried away by every wind of teaching.

LC members basically hold the belief that they are part of the greatest movement that ever existed. That notion represents an extreme system of belief. As it affects the average member, the sheer disconnect between "the vision" and reality can often cast a cloud of suspicion on reality. Reality is brought into question, even when it's what all the facts point to. Thus, it is all too easy to go along with the extremes of the LC. Questionable things are accepted for the sake of a perceived greater good. Members will endlessly sing "I'm so happy in the lovely place..." Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to spoil anyone's fun, but I just urge members to compare what they believe the LC to be with what it actually is in practice. That discrepancy is telling enough.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Come to find out, 'normal' in the LC always involves something that everyone on the outside has missed. The normal Christian life is equated with practicing something highly esoteric.

What's normal in the LC is to elevate a man and his ministry. This is dangerous in any context, but in the superstitious and ignorant Chinese countryside it found its consummation, or apotheosis. WL felt that he filled a leadership void - Hey, someone's got to be the apostle! - but actually this leadership void was filled, once and for all, by Jesus Christ. The LC got members to accept a substitute, and the promotion of a fellow sinner. Instead of God you got Deputy God. All the "Lord Changshou" folks did was drop the Deputy part. Not a big step, actually.

What's normal in the LC is that every whim of Leadership is held to be God's sovereign will, expressed thru His current 'oracle'. Again, why should this be shocking if in such an atmosphere members begin to imagine themselves the Trumpet of God? They're just following the clear lead, already well-established. No more, "consider others more highly than yourself" - it is, rather, "Find out who's in charge and get in line." In this atmosphere independent, critical thought is discouraged and suppressed as being akin to rebellion against God; those 'noble Bereans' were a mere blip, an anomaly. WL did all your thinking for you. Just be simple. Don't be hardened. Be one with the Body.

What's normal in the LC is a highly emotionally charged environment, gained and fostered by repetitious shouting, that leads members to an intensely subjective state of weeping, groaning, arm-waving, jumping, etc in which any feeling of excitement can be taken as God's manifested presence, and the actual words of the prophets and apostles become, at best, vehicles for the subjective state. If it actually says, "love one another" or "remember the poor" or something, one may blithely ignore the black-and-white and continue to pursue the exalted state. Is it any wonder that things got stranger and stranger, chasing the esoteric high? HERn says that in Taiwan they were praying over one word for months - what happened to the rest of the text, meantime? In such an environment the Bible can mean anything at all. Or nearly nothing at all.

Originally Posted by Freedom

Questionable things are accepted for the sake of a perceived greater good. Members will endlessly sing "I'm so happy in the lovely place..." Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to spoil anyone's fun, but I just urge members to compare what they believe the LC to be with what it actually is in practice. That discrepancy is telling enough.

Back to my recent question: do rank-and-file LC'ers really believe Leadership that there's no connection, formal or informal, to the mainland believers? That 15 or 20 million-odd believers suddenly went 'poof' because it was no longer convenient to the narrative? Actually, probably a lot of them are so conditioned that they'll accept podium-speak as reality itself. They've been 'trained' out of critical thought; Leadership can say what's clearly at variance with the Bible, with all available evidence, with common sense, and with what Leadership was speaking last week or last year. Just be simple, don't be hardened, drop your concepts, eat that tree! Ayy-menn!

And if the rest know that something is amiss, they know that, (wink-nod) We have no connection whatsoever is somehow a cover for some greater good (i.e. 'protecting the innocent on the mainland' or whatever) then that's fine. Just be one with Leadership. Obey without question. Don't be hardened. Eat that tree. We're at the fountain drinking, we're in the church our home. Just ignore the nagging feeling that maybe something isn't quite right, here.

Okay, back to the quote,

some of you worship me as God and address me as Lord

one thing that emerges from the newspaper accounts of the PRC hinterlands is that the gospel of Jesus Christ took root in situations where the afflicted prayed and were healed (see e.g. the SCMP story). This isn't dissimilar to the NT narrative, and subsequent history. Even in Jesus' hometown, it says that most rejected Him but He was still able to heal a few of the sick ones (Mark 6:5; Mat 13:58). The sick are always more amenable to faith, no?

So imagine this: following the 1979 openings, WL's operatives begin to push literature among the repressed house churches. Books and pamphlets begin circulating in the hitherto-unreached countryside. And these pamphlets are accompanied by a promotion of the "rich ministry" of "God's Bondslave" as much as faith in Jesus Christ. These books promote isolation from "devilish Christianity" and dependence upon a Seer of the Divine Revelation, nearly as much as on personal repentance, and antagonism toward the fallen world. They promote WL's "age of the Spirit" superseding the "age of the Word", in which subjective, sensory experience now becomes the real and true guide. No more dead letters for us, no sirree! I daresay it's not coincidental that WL's followers quickly get dubbed 'shouters' or 'yellers'. . . so what happens when someone somewhere is in distress and calls "Lord Changshou" and gets a vision or a healing, suddenly the whole village is excited and the thing just takes off? WL had fed it all the necessary ingredients, and when it springs to life like Frankenstein's monster he wants to disavow any connection to his ministry?

All this reminds me of the current Blendeds calling Dong Yu Lan's group deviant. Deviant from what? The Arvore Da Vida followed WL's game plan to a 't' - why begrudge them their great results? And maybe someone should notify Congress, get them to make an addendum to the record - add Dong Yu Lan, Titus Chu, quarantines, lawsuits, Daystar, the Shouters, the Lord Changshou, and Eastern Lightning to the list of accomplishments of a man and his ministry. Come on, don't be so modest - step up and take credit where credit's due.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Back to my recent question: do rank-and-file LC'ers really believe Leadership that there's no connection, formal or informal, to the mainland believers? That 15 or 20 million-odd believers suddenly went 'poof' because it was no longer convenient to the narrative? Actually, probably a lot of them are so conditioned that they'll accept podium-speak as reality itself. They've been 'trained' out of critical thought; Leadership can say what's clearly at variance with the Bible, with all available evidence, with common sense, and with what Leadership was speaking last week or last year. Just be simple, don't be hardened, drop your concepts, eat that tree! Ayy-menn!

The official narrative that is spoken from the podium is so far removed from reality that it's scary. It goes back to what I said yesterday. If reporters with no connection to the LC were clear enough about the situation with the Bible smuggling to report on it, then LC members should feel that their intelligence has been insulted by leaders who do nothing but deny any linkage to China.

Yet I think members do know the truth, it's that pesky thing that keeps nagging at them. But they ignore it, because it's equated with 'death'. Because of that, members will take in what leaders say, because that is the easiest thing to do. No one ever said that the truth is an easy thing to swallow.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

So imagine this: following the 1979 openings, WL's operatives begin to push literature among the repressed house churches. Books and pamphlets begin circulating in the hitherto-unreached countryside. And these pamphlets are accompanied by a promotion of the "rich ministry" of "God's Bondslave" as much as faith in Jesus Christ. These books promote isolation from "devilish Christianity" and dependence upon a Seer of the Divine Revelation, nearly as much as on personal repentance, and antagonism toward the fallen world. They promote WL's "age of the Spirit" superseding the "age of the Word", in which subjective, sensory experience now becomes the real and true guide. No more dead letters for us, no sirree! I daresay it's not coincidental that WL's followers quickly get dubbed 'shouters' or 'yellers'. . . so what happens when someone somewhere is in distress and calls "Lord Changshou" and gets a vision or a healing, suddenly the whole village is excited and the thing just takes off? WL had fed it all the necessary ingredients, and when it springs to life like Frankenstein's monster he wants to disavow any connection to his ministry?

This is likely to be exactly what happened. When the "ministry bomb" was dropped on China, it was reflected Lee's ministry at that point in time and at each subsequent point in time where things were distributed. As we all know, WL's ministry was about as progressive as ministries come. Last week was always old news. So whatever it was that China got, didn't contain any context.

So perhaps during the 90's China received literature with slogans like "the high peak of the divine revelation is that God became man to make man God..." They had absolutely no idea of the context under which such things were being spoken. And I'm not saying that the proper context would legitimize Lee's speaking, but at least for members in the U.S., they knew where Lee was coming from in relation to where he was going. And members here generally don't take such statements any further than declaring it. So "make man God" becomes something extreme in China, when in the U.S. it amounts to just an aberrant slogan.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

The article is printed in 2002, and depicts a person who works for LSM as a literature courier. Compensated or not, the person is clearly doing only one thing: distributing LSM material.

So is he doing this with LSM knowledge? Or do they just sell tens of thousands of copies, to shadowy figures paying cash in the alleyway, no questions asked? Like the 3,000 Bibles that were seized in 2001, that the LSM had no idea about how they got there. No involvement.

I found it difficult to believe LSM doesn't keep track of their Bible sales. 3,000 is a significant quantity. Even if someone was ordering 500 bibles, certainly LSM would want to know why. There would be a positive story to spin.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

So whatever it was that China got, didn't contain any context. . . So perhaps during the 90's China received literature with slogans like "the high peak of the divine revelation is that God became man to make man God..." They had absolutely no idea of the context under which such things were being spoken.

In this setting, the context is trying to yell it louder than your neighbor. I'm not being facetious - when I was in the LC, I watched a video smuggled out of China. It was taken during a meeting, in a hall with maybe 100+ people in it. The meeting was characterized by mindless repetition and palpably evident excitement. On one wall was WL's "high peak" hymn, "God became man to make man God/untraceable economy". They sang it over and over again. Then they shouted the words. Then they sang again. Then they shouted some more. The persons in the meeting who took the lead were not contributing anything to the meeting, save to shout the words to the song louder and more frequently than the rest. The message was clear: to get ahead, promote the ministry of WL.

In the USA, they called it being positive. The more positive you were, the more you advanced. To be "on fire for the Lord" and to incessantly promote the ministry were synonymous.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The meeting was characterized by mindless repetition and palpably evident excitement. On one wall was WL's "high peak" hymn, "God became man to make man God/untraceable economy". They sang it over and over again. Then they shouted the words. Then they sang again. Then they shouted some more. The persons in the meeting who took the lead were not contributing anything to the meeting, save to shout the words to the song louder and more frequently than the rest. . .

It's interesting to consider the LC phrase "exercise your spirit" in the context of the meeting I saw on tape, and my experience coming into the LC from what they call fallen Christianity. They told me that in Christianity my human spirit was dormant. The spirit is an organ to contact God (who is Spirit), and my spirit is connected to my mouth, so if I open my mouth I'll be filled with Spirit. Right? We all remember the narrative.

And all of this was fairly tenuously based on Paul's exhortation to "exercise yourself unto godliness" (1 Tim 4:7 ASV). . . how did Paul's word become an invitation to mindless, repetitive shouting? The "godliness" that Paul presented to Timothy seems to encompass two things to me: first is personal discipline toward right living, and second is grace and mercy to "those who are without"; see e.g. Jesus quoting (Matt 9:13) "I desire mercy and not sacrifice" . . . live right toward God, and live right toward your fellows, both the holy and the profane. Again I ask, where does this suggest mindless shouting?

But that's how WL boiled it down, and delivered it to us in the USA and to the Chinese country side, and when it turned into a runaway train in China I guess he just shrugged and said, Well this has nothing to do with me! I don't counsel anyone to worship a man! Never!

A related point is that in dreaded "fallen Christianity" supposedly we all sat there like lumps while only one person (the clergy) functioned. But in the LC we all function, right!?! That was the narrative. But what's our function? To shout over and over again, "God made man to make man God"? and "Untraceable economy"? And, "Amen, blended!" "Hallelujah, blended!" Hallelujah indeed.

In the Bible (1 Cor 12) we're told that the hand is not the eye and the foot isn't the ear. Each part has a unique function. Distinct, separate, yet harmonious and one. But in the LC everyone's an ear, or an eye, or whatever the Oracle is telling us this week. Everyone must shout the same thing. Over and over and over. Exercise your spirit, brother! And in so doing, everyone should be exactly identical. The RecV footnotes say this, in Rev 2 and 3 in the epistles to the seven churches. Those churches weren't exactly identical - did you know that this was their real problem? That's right, WL figured it out for us. (See also his "The Divine Economy", chap 14 for more on this.) No more hand, eye, or ear. No more distinctions whatever.

But if you do come into the LC, and quote Homer or Plato or Faust or Billy Graham they'll nod and smile. They'll let you function as you see fit. You can shout whatever you want. As long as you're happy and euphoric, no problem brother (or sister)! Right? We all remember the rush we got to stand up and shout or declare or pray or sing whatever we wanted to. We were exercising our spirit in the local church! Wonderful! We're at the fountain drinking! We're in the church our home!

Eventually, though, once the hook seems firmly settled, they'll pull you aside and either discreetly or bluntly tell you what's what around here. You're in the (Chinese) Army now. No individuality allowed around here. Faceless proletariat; small potato; be a WL tape recorder; WL duplication center. I think perhaps the Shouters took off in the mainland because the disconnect between the Bible and actual practice doesn't seem so great from their perspective. You come in, shout today's slogan a few times, stand up and pump your fist, and get in line. You're now in the Body.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

Unfortunately this is a predilection (tendency) of the fall. We go to extremes, and subsequently fall apart. . . .

And religion, of course, breeds extremism in spades. So easy to deride the "Sunday-go-to-meeting" Christians or the "Easter-and-Christmas" Christians. Lukewarm, ignorant, shallow, and fake. Yet look at the other end: David Koresh. I could name a dozen or twenty but why bother.

I know this is a little off topic relative to China, but I think that (ignoring the far extremes of the Koresh or Jim Jones types) we are so often made to feel worthless because we are not on the front lines of a major ministry of some kind.

When Jesus spoke to the disciples and others who constantly followed him, he was hard on them and expected a lot. But when he set up shop to teach the multitudes on the side of a mountain, he dealt with the core of their normal living and their character. Poor in spirit, merciful, meek, humble, hungering and thirsting for righteousness, giving more than was asked, being diligent to observe the spirit of the law and not just the cold words.

It was in the context of being among the disciples that Jesus turned the rich young ruler away. It was not a rejection as being a believer.

I feel that we tend toward a two-caste system in which there are those who are deeply imbedded in ministries of note and the rest of us who are not. And we feel like failures because we aren't part of those major ministries. So some of us think that trying to turn every brief encounter with anyone into an opportunity to speak about Christ is the next best thing. Yet we don't consider much of anything outside of these as relevant or spiritual.

Yet being humble, meek, righteous, peacemakers do not require any of those overt acts. Loving others as we love ourselves is not an exercise in preaching the gospel. But all of those activities are spiritual to the one who is in Christ.

And I think we over-analyze what is "in Christ." Jesus didn't say to get spiritual then do it. He said that if you did it you proved that you really were a believer. A follower. And it wasn't digging in the scriptures that was going to teach you the truth so that you be set free. It was being obedient in following that did it.

There are some who are called to have side jobs while they mostly follow the calling of Christ. Preachers and missionaries are among many such people. We should respect their labors, but not in a way that elevates them as the Pharisees (or Lee) would have it.

But we should be diligent to also do what we are called to do no matter how small we think it is. Man was put here as the image bearer of God. Our shopping, recreation, driving, work, interactions, etc., should reflect God. We will not always do well. And at our best, the image is less than perfect. But that is what we are all called to do. Even the preachers and missionaries.

And stop thinking that there is anything small. If we are going to celebrate the successes of a major gospel rally (for example by a Billy Graham type) we should also celebrate the diligent living of the small ones who simply live according to the one whom they believe in and serve.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Back in the mid-80's Lee... relocated to Taipei supposedly to restore that aging church he once "founded." His first move was to side-swipe any and all of those well-respected leaders with stature, and promote younger, yet more zealous, brothers. Lee did that both at LSM (trainers) and in the LC's (elders.) Lee claimed he had the right to this, as he also had the right to choose his own "cook."

Thus, where no doctrinal issues existed, Lee created generational conflicts. In classic Lee fashion, he could then blame ensuing problems on oldness and "senioritis," the supposed love for position and power inherent in all leaders, except, of course, for Lee himself. The battlefield and the rules for engagement were thus established, all centered around Lee himself, so he deftly switched the news story to the "burden to evangelize the whole earth by Y2K."

Now we had skirmishes around the globe between those who merely loved Christ and the church and those who were absolute for the ministry. Subtle, but effective, changes now tightened Lee's reigns over the movement. He was now in absolute control, supported by an army of radicals (aka Gideon and his army, the 300 "Spartans") returning from the FTTT ready and willing to wreak havoc on any opposition, with his own unprincipled son Philip as the "Enforcer in Chief."

I moved these comments over there from another thread because I'm considering what happened when WL's activity of introducing turmoil as a way of taking control back-fired in China. We know that WL had technique of overturning what he saw as "oldness" in leadership, and using that pretext to remove established persons who were a threat to his absolute control. The "Young Galileans" move in the USA was another example. There is a clear pattern here. As Ohio put it, WL would mobilize "an army of radicals" not to promote the gospel, but to use the gospel promotion as a pretext to clear out all the supposedly dead wood in the organization.

Now, go back to the question: How could a movement that publicly claimed several million adherents in mainland China, twenty years later publicly claim zero adherents? I think of two scenarios: either they had a 180-degree turn in policy and outlook, or something went terribly wrong and they had to drop it like the radioactive hot potato it became. I wrote previously that WL created a Frankenstein monster and perhaps what follows is how it happened.

There's a book called "Redeemed by Fire: The Rise of Popular Christianity in Modern China" (Xi Lian, Yale University Press) that says WL's devotees were very organized and very aggressive, post-1979. Literature, money, organizational focus and "training", open denigration of the established order, open antagonism toward powers both governmental and religious, including Protestant Christianity, and a proposed "new and simpler way". They condemned not only the official state Three Self church but the WN house churches as old and stale. WL offered a new and fresh way to "eat the divine", attractive to younger people. Villages gathered together and had shouting festivals for hours on end. Hundreds of thousands became caught, and affiliated.

Apparently WL not only wanted to evangelize and proseletyze unbelievers, but to co-opt established Christian assemblies as well. He simply couldn't tolerate another model. So the WL model spread, and established house churches were destabilized, then in 1983 when the Government became alarmed at the fast-growing movement and cracked down, it went underground and then the really weird Shouter sect off-shoots started to proliferate in the new void. That's where the Lord Changshou shouters and the Eastern Lightning and a host of others sprang up. There were a number of personality cults, with rosters in the hundreds of thousands, who were controlling, abusing, focusing on submission, indoctrination and recruiting of others. If you obey the Master you'll be blessed, if you resist you'll be cursed - etc, etc. You can read a lot of details of craziness in the book, pp 210 thru 225 - what WL's minions did and what happened after.

So by the time this all blew up on the LSM all they could do was walk away, and pretend no connection. They had lost control, and any affiliation with the crazies would hurt them worse than Jack Sparks and the Mindbenders.

Having said that, LSM surely still has "their" churches there as well. Meaning: tightly controlled by LSM operatives. Maybe the 1,200 assemblies that the Leadership supposedly told Theresa Zimmerman-Liu in 2013. But it's probably nowhere near what WL thought he had twenty years ago.

The scary and sad part of it all is that if WL hadn't deliberately set out to destabilize the pre-established WN Little Flock house churches (and other more-or-less mainline 'orthodox' Christians) that had survived the Cultural Revolution, the face of Christianity in China might be much, much different today. A lot more normal, whatever your definition of normal is, and a lot less crazy. But WL didn't like stability. That much we know for sure.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by aron

I moved these comments over there from another thread because I'm considering what happened when WL's activity of introducing turmoil as a way of taking control back-fired in China....

Wow! So basically Satan used WL and the LSM minions to derail the expansion of Christian freedom in China. Somehow God will use this in a positive way.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

Somehow God will use this in a positive way.

If nothing else, God uses this to show us what not to be, as WL himself said about the various persons and writings in the Bible, both OT and NT. (some of whom had never been characterized negatively prior to WL - more on this in a moment).

After writing many comments on this group, and reading probably three times as much as I've written, my view is this: the ministry of WL could not tolerate any kind of mutuality. When his acolytes came across any Christian witness, testimony, or assembly, there would be an initial pretense of fellowship. "Oh, we are just like you are: believers into the Lord Jesus Christ." The Orthodox Protestant card would be brandished prominently.

But WL never would have tolerated any of those Orthodox Protestant ministers, not one. Because he never tolerated any peers of any type or stripe. Even when his operatives came into China and encountered the faithful followers of WN's Little Flock movement, they were instantly branded as passé, old, and out of touch. Same with India - genuine manifestations of the church on the local ground were co-opted. No possibility of spiritual peers; by definition they could not exist.

WL didn't care for the church except as an entity to be co-opted for his ministry. Other than that, it was "dark", "devilish", "fallen" etc etc. Nothing good was there, apart from WL's guiding hand.

Lastly, WL didn't care for the Bible if it couldn't be used to prop up his ministry. Anything that couldn't be made to line up with his "God's economy" metric was just something God didn't really want, but somehow it got slipped in by the ignorance of the writers, compilers, and editors. And nobody had sussed all this out until the Ministry to End the Age came along, courtesy of God's Humble Bondlave, the Wise Master Builder and Oracle.

Instead of "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" it was only those words which seemed profitable for the Ministry of the Age. The Devil is a Preacher, indeed. Ain't that the truth, brother. Amen.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

[NewManLiving]

Witness Lee and his acolytes have a long history of being subversive. New York is another example of their take-over mentality. Brother Kaung gives some detail in one of his recorded messages. As to something more recent, I'm convinced that if the opportunity arose they would certainly attempt another infiltration.

[aron]

Originally Posted by LSM

[Nee's] ultimate burden was the spread and the building up of the church as the house of God, God’s tabernacle. Although his own earthly tabernacle (physical body) has been taken down, the building of God obtained through his ministry remains and still is growing and spreading throughout the earth.

By the time Watchman Nee was arrested in 1952, approximately four hundred local churches had been raised up in China. In addition, over thirty local churches had been raised up in the Philippines, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia. Today there are over twenty-three hundred local churches worldwide because of the rich and faithful ministry of Watchman Nee.

http://www.watchmannee.org/life-ministry.html

The LSM website says there were 400 Nee-affiliated churches China in 1952. How many of them survived the Cultural Revolution, and greeted Lee's acolytes when they began moving in after 1979? And what kind of interaction occurred between the Little Flock old guard and the invading "army of radicals" mobilized by Lee? I always heard that the Little Flock and the LSM never mixed well, and I believed it - LSM operatives didn't mix well with anyone. But why not with Nee's Little Flock - didn't both have the same ground, the fabled ground of oneness? If they clashed, why? Weren't they all Nee acolytes?

Another question: how many heretical sects came forth from the Little Flock before its LSM/Shouter reincarnation? And how many heretical sects from the other non-government "house churches" like those of Wang Mingdao or Li Tianen? Why is it that most of the heresies and cultic activity came out of Lee's post-1979 Shouter movement?

In recent years, the Chinese church has continued to send out warnings to be on guard against heretical cults. Since 2000, “Tianfeng”, the magazine of the Three-Self Patriotic Movement National Committee and the China Christian Council has published more than 40 articles related to this topic. Of these articles, more than 10 are related to Eastern Lightning (Almighty God). It could be said that this heretical cult has aroused the most attention of the Two Councils. This is because Eastern Lightning has been the most destructive to the Chinese church.

‪An important question triggered by Eastern Lightning is: why the surge of cults from Christianity in recent years?

‪In July of 2009, the author found 14 officially named cults posted on the Chinese government's website. These include the Shouters (呼喊派), the Disciple Society (门徒会), the Lingling Sect (灵灵教), All Sphere Church (全范围教会), Lord God Sect (主神教), New Testament Church (新约教会), Guanyin Method (观音法门), Anointed King (被立王), the Unification Church (统一教), Three Grades of Servants (三班仆人派), True Buddha School (灵仙真佛宗), Children of the Heavenly Father (天父的儿女), Dami Mission (达米宣教会), and World Elijah Gospel Mission Society (世界以利亚福音宣教会). Of the 14 cults named, 12 of them fly under the banner of Christianity. Three of the groups (the Unification Church, the Dami Mission Society, and the World Elijah Gospel Mission Society) are from South Korea. The New Testament Church has its roots in Hong Kong and Taiwan. The remaining eight cults are all homegrown Mainland Chinese cults. It is true that the Shouters arrived by way of Witness Lee (李常受) from America; however, Lee himself was sent out of the country by Watchman Nee (聚会处), leader of the Little Flock churches on the eve of the Communist Liberation. Therefore, at its root the Shouters are a homegrown group.

So it is understandable why people raise the question, why do these cults fly under the banner of Christianity? And, why do the majority of cults that label themselves Christian come from Mainland China? Does it have something to do with the popularization of Christianity or with folk Christianity?

‪Another noteworthy phenomenon is that, among the eight homegrown cults, aside from the Shouters, there are two additional cults that derive from the Shouters: the Lord God Sect and the Anointed King. In addition, the All Sphere Church (also known as the Criers (哭派) or Born Again Criers (哭重生派)), the Disciple Society, and Three Grades of Servants all certainly have a connection with the Shouters. If this is true, six of the eight homegrown cults belong to or are associated with the Shouters, which accounts for more than half of those cults. Moreover, there are several cults that were not included among the 14 cults but are viewed as heretical sects. The Changshou Sect (常受教), the Mainland China Administrative Deacon Station (中华大陆行政执事站), and Eastern Lightning were all originally were born out of the Shouters.

http://www.chinasource.org/resource-...anity-in-china

And does anyone notice a key similarity between LSM's Local Churches, TC's GLA churches, DYL's Brasilian churches, the (Changshou) Shouters, the Three Grades of Servants, and the Eastern Lightning? All focus on absolute orientation toward, identification with, and surrender to the ministry in question. It's not faith in God, nor loving one's neighbor as oneself that delineates identity and membership. No, it's the submerging and/or nullificating of one's individuality by remaining under the sphere and influence of the self-designated "rich and faithful" (i.e. dominating) ministry. They're probably all manifestations of the same spirit. Lee's RecV footnote put it well: everyone must be "absolutely identical" with "no differences whatsoever"; individuality on any level is akin to rebellion. I daresay that goes for all of them.

[aron]

Structure of Christian-inspired groups in China

"Existing Christian groups from the first phase functioned as a breeding ground for the new groups: the "Group of Shouters" provided the impetus for at least seven splinter groups. These offshoots usually developed due to a conflict between the leader and one of the followers [cf Dong Yu Lan and Titus Chu vis-a-vis the 'Blended Brothers']. The latter would then decide to establish his or her own group, often taking over not only large parts of the original congregation but the organizational structure and teachings as well. By deliberately maintaining a connection with the former group, the new group is able to legitimize its own teachings and also attract former [and new] members."

Kupfer, K Emergence and Development of Spiritual-Religious Groups in the People's Republic of China after 1978. PhD diss; 2008, Essen. p.246

http://www-brs.ub.ruhr-uni-bochum.de...istin/diss.pdf

[my comments in brackets]

[aron]

Why did the Shouters prove such a fertile breeding ground for crazy cults? Clearly Witness Lee and LSM claimed them, initially; I heard Lee claim them from the podium. But eventually LSM put out a statement disavowing any connection, real or imagined, formal or informal, with the Shouters.

For connections, look at recruiting techniques, for example: they'll tell the prospective member that they're 'just Christians', and assiduously affirm their common heritage, as do the churches affiliated with LSM and Lee. But once bonding's begun, then the separation, isolation, group-centric identification, and special revelations, terminologies, practices, and experiences begin. Again, very similar. Plus they've got a sole "revelator" at the top, God's present Oracle, with one's position in the assembly uniquely determined by one's relation with the Ministry (or Oracle, or Deputy God), through the chain of command (which isn't organizational but organic, because the assembly's a living body; yes, yes, I know).

Okay, but this is all just coincidence, right? I mean, you don't blame Martin Luther for David Koresh, do you? So LSM practices and teaching producing the Shouters, with subsequent morphing into crazy cults is maybe just circumstantial; Communist oppression, maybe, is actually behind the mayhem, with ignorance and isolation. Or perhaps some combination of other, unknowable factors.

Okay, fine. Let's say there's no real causal connection between the ministry of Witness Lee, who taught that all you have to do is shout, "Oh Lord Jesus" repetitively in unison to 'eat the divine' and express God fully on earth, and the craziness that ensued in Mainland China. Okay. . . but my question remains, why? Why did it all go so badly that the 20-odd million Lee claimed vanished into nothing, with only tales of bizarre teachings, paranoia, violence, intimidation, kidnappings, brainwashing, murder, and sexual predation and financial extortion coming out in the mainstream press?

My answer is simple: culture. Witness Lee claimed that God raised up Watchman Nee in the "virgin soil" of China (google "Watchman Nee virgin soil china" for LSM citations), but I'd say instead that China contained fallen human culture like everywhere else. And this allowed Nee to succeed at his Little Flock empire-building, as it later allowed the Shouters to come to Lee by the millions, and then morph into craziness on steroids, as splinter group after splinter group peeled off, each claiming God's unique expression and divine favor as a special provenance to seeking ones, right before the coming apocalypse. Just like Lee's ministry had done before them.

The charismatic/sensory initiatory experience, the "everyone is fallen but us" isolationism, with continual tales of doom and gloom outside the Hive, the tight operational control, the special revelations, with words getting special associations in new social contexts, the elevation of certain supposedly gifted and/or anointed persons, with everything oriented toward them to keep good order in the Hive - I think there's a common cultural substrate underneath it all that allows it to flourish the way it did, where it did, and when it did.

There are cults and unbalanced, frantic Christians everywhere, but this case seems to be a particularly oriental manifestation. For a few years in the late '60s and early '70s it tried to take a Caucasian face in the U.S.A, Europe, and Oceania, but ultimately the Asian cultural orientation and affinity prevailed. Even if Shouter offshoots and LSM-run local churches are now organizationally unrelated, they're alike in constitution, disposition, and expression.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Witness Lee's MO is to say something that is highly controversial, even heretical but then to walk that statement back with numerous caveats. He does this with his teaching on the triune God, and other topics. I feel that this modus operandi of his is designed to provoke outrage and disputes so that he can claim that there is a spiritual attack over his ministry...

I would agree with someone that you cannot prove Witness Lee is heretical from his "deification" doctrine or from his doctrine on the Triune God. No, in my opinion you prove he is heretical from his ground of the church doctrine, his MOTA doctrine, his fabricated story about Watchman Nee, and his practices of making merchandise of the saints (Daystar, etc). But once you have that at its core, then deification and his doctrine of the triune God fits the pattern.

I wanted to bring this comment over from another thread, because it relates to my idea of why the Shouters splintered into so many heretical cults. Lee's MO, as ZNP mentions above, was to make provocative statements to satisfy the fire-breathing program zealots, then make other statements to satisfy the orthodoxy police.

My idea is, what happens to those inflammatory statements when there is minimal orthodox oversight? They become launching points for heretical cults. What follows is a quote from the internet (see esp. the bolded part):

"While individual communities of believers were associated with each other, leadership was very loose and unable to produce literature to guide their adherents. As a result,heresies were increasingly common and the groups lacked coherent dogma to guide their teachings and liturgies.

The Shouters began in Henan province in the 1960s. They are called the Shouters because they cry out to God during their worship services. They are among one of the fastest growing underground churches in China with their numbers allegedly around 500,000. As mentioned in a Time magazine article on the group,"The Shouters... rewrote the Lord's Prayer to read simply,"Oh Lord Jesus," and taught followers to holler the phrase while stamping their feet in unison."

In the early 1980s, Witness Lee, an apprentice of the great Chinese evangelist Watchman Nee, began to disseminate literature throughout the home churches. His unorthodox view of the trinity caused some members of these churches to elevate him to the position of Christ. This, combined with their aggressive evangelism and their bellicose shouting of Bible verses, caused clashes with the state led Three Self Church. The group was driven underground, declared revolutionary by the government, and saw its leaders arrested. However, the group still seems to grow and get along while concealed. Eastern Lightning, a cult mentioned earlier in this essay, is a splinter group from the Shouter Church.

The Local Church is seen by some to be a cult and by others to just be different from traditional evangelical Christianity. There has been much controversy and even litigation over this matter connection with a lawsuit for slander which they brought against a rival group. These misunderstandings happened when Witness Lee brought his movement out of China and into the Western world. Lee's style of teaching was radically different from what Western evangelicals were used to - mainly that Lee would make radical theological statements to get your attention, and then balance them out elsewhere in his texts. However, his statements come across as not just attention grabbing but sacrilegious. He made statements that denigrated the trinity, deified the nature of man, questioned the legitimacy of evangelical churches, and maintained that denominations were meaningless"

http://www.c4ss.net/Chinese_Cults.pdf

[aron]

"The extensive growth of the underground Protestant church sector in the 1980s derived mostly from the pre-1949 independent churches. An avalanche of information from groups overseas on Christianity - books, pamphlets, tracts, audio tapes, videos - swept through south, southeastern, and eastern China in the 1980s. Much of this was from the overseas followers of Watchman Nee and Witness Li (sic), and also materials and missionaries of the True Jesus Church, whose headquarters have been in Taiwan since the 1950s. The foundations of most of the important sectarian movements, including many on the list of today's designated "evil cults", were laid at this time. The first important sectarian group to emerge was the "Shouters", in 1982-83. The lack of formal theological training, indeed the devaluing of it, meant that "spiritual gifts" and personal charisma created their own ecclesiastical authority, which was passed along in master-disciple relationships..."

Bays DH. A New History of Christianity in China. 2011, John Wiley and Sons


My comment is this: suppose in a situation where formal theological training is denigrated, and personal charisma is elevated, and Lee puts out tracts saying, "The age of Jesus is over, it is now the Age of the Spirit", what is to stop some disaffected ex-Shouter (from mid-level) saying he's the new Uber Boss, God incarnate, and if any nubile females want to come and get sanctified in his shroud they are welcome to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beili_Wang

The guy Wu Yangming was apparently an unhinged nut-job, but he pulled maybe 100,000 people into his orbit? How come the Shouters spawned such complete craziness, on this scale?

[aron]

Description of The Established King Sect (Beili Wang):

“‘The Established King’ is both the name of a heterodox sect and the self-styled title of its leader. The sect was established in 1988 by Wu Yangming with Wu Yangming as its leader, who alsostyled himself as a ‘King’, an ‘Established King’. Wu Yangming is a native of the hamlet of Xiaohe in the village of Daxie in Chendian prefecture, Qingshang county, Anhui province, born in 1945 and educated to Elementary School level. In 1979 he converted to Christianity and in 1983 became a member of the ‘Shouters’ sect in Henan province, actively recruiting converts in his home prefecture, disseminating certain superstitious and reactionary teachings and organising secret religious activities. He was once interrogated by the Public Security Bureau, but showed no sign of mending his ways, and in September 1987 he was dealt with according to the law and served a sentence of one year in prison.”

“When he was released in 1988, Wu Yangming discovered that his position within the ‘Shouters’ sect had already been taken over by other people and therefore decided to set up a new sect, setting himself up as King, to organise a new religion. Relying heavily on the saying of Li Changshou, the leader of the ‘Shouters’ sect, that ‘Now that we do not have Jesus, the Spirit leads people to preach the gospel’, and further twisting the revelation in the ‘Gospel of Luke’ arrogantly to claim that he is the ‘Established King’ and with Fuyang as his stronghold, he evangelised and recruited converts in Qingshang, Lixing, and Su counties.”

“Wu Yangming announced that ‘Jesus has already died, there is now only the “Established King” (meaning Wu Yangming himself) who is the unique true God, the Lord of Heaven’. "

"He further said that the name Jesus ‘is of no significance, it goes in one ear and out the other; he is a fish hung on a tree, completely dead’ and also says ‘When Jesus died and rose again, the “Established King” came into being to come down among human beings, so the Kingdom of Heaven is not in heaven, but on earth’. Wu Yangming and his core leaders altered the Bible to replace every occurrence of ‘Jesus’ with ‘the Established King’ to show that he himself had replaced Jesus."

From

http://storage.cloversites.com/midci...ing%20Sect.pdf


What interests me is how Lee's provocative statement, "We do not have Jesus" is then used as a springboard to heresy. Of course Lee was probably speaking of the "Processed God", who was "Jesus no longer, but now the Spirit", but in the hands of people who were resolutely devaluing orthodox theological training as "dead", it became the basis of a cult, with tens or even hundreds of thousands of adherents. And there are apparently many of these groups, come out from the Shouters.