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If you really Nee to know Who was Watchman Nee? Discussions regarding the life and times of Watchman Nee, the Little Flock and the beginnings of the Local Church Movement in Mainland China

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Old 01-21-2017, 04:11 PM   #1501
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

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Igzy) "My question is: You don't have to believe either story, but why believe the one that is least likely?"

Igzy,

Lacking evidence for your argument you introduce unrelated things as above,.. the MOTA argument, a surefire crowd pleaser!

I'd give it up brother because even if men are fooled the Lord is not.

Drake

Oh, Drake. Stop being so dramatic and just get the point I was making. I realize it was a bit of a side issue. I was simply making the point that your reasoning is inconsistent. Take it for what it was worth.

It makes a lot more sense than your whopper that there is no evidence against Nee.
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Old 01-21-2017, 04:17 PM   #1502
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Igzy,

It is apparent that there is zero evidence of the charges againsr Brother Nee that you are enthusiastically promoting.

Your gender bias argument is also a fallacy since it has nothing to do with either situation.

Drake
What do you consider evidence of anything in the past before we were alive? All we have is the testimony of others. Why do you believe Lee's stories about Nee, but not Hsu's? What evidence do you have that Lee's stories are true?
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Old 01-21-2017, 04:24 PM   #1503
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

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Oh, Drake. Stop being so dramatic and just get the point I was making. I realize it was a bit of a side issue. I was simply making the point that your reasoning is inconsistent. Take it for what it was worth.

It makes a lot more sense that your whopper that there is no evidence against Nee.
Dramatic? Really Igzy, let's just avoid introducing silly arguments about MOTA, Clinton, etc that have no relevance here.

So are we back to the communist propaganda now? Okay, when were all these so called "rape" allegations first made public? What year and what we're the circumstances whereby they surfaced?

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Old 01-21-2017, 04:29 PM   #1504
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

They do have relevance if you try to get point I was making.

And how do you know they were communist propaganda? Because they became known in the 1950s? That's no proof it's propaganda.

How about the firsthand confession of Miao (MYC) to Lily Hsu which I quoted? That wasn't propaganda. That was something Hsu actually witnessed.
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Old 01-21-2017, 04:45 PM   #1505
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Something I find a bit questionable about this conversation with MYC is the fact that it happened after Hsu had already testified against Nee in his show trial.

Again, I find it hard to understand why we should be so quick to accept these allegations made against Nee when there are numerous other other (ridiculous) allegations made against him (as well as against many other people) during this same period. This was an era of revolution, show trials, reeducation camps, and brainwashing. The status of Nee's morality doesn't much matter to me anymore, but some things about this story just don't add up.
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Old 01-21-2017, 04:46 PM   #1506
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

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That's like asking me if I am "completely free" of LSM's smear campaigns against Ingalls, Mallon, Chu, Tomes, etc. for refusing to get on board.

The real question is whether Hsu's story is credible, whether it has second-sourcing, whether it corresponds to the facts of history.

We do know that Lee's account does not. It is surrounded by mythological "tall tales."
I would also add Lee's account is full of omissions.
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Old 01-21-2017, 04:56 PM   #1507
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

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Why are you so condescending? You are stating something that is not true (or that--at the very least--you cannot prove) and insisting that it is true just because you say so. That is not acceptable.

And what exactly do you think I am in "denial and delusion" about?
Who's condescending? Who made you court prosecutor?

I told you what I have seen and heard. You repeatedly asked for details. You don't like what you heard. You can believe anything you want.

Can I be excused now?
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Old 01-21-2017, 04:58 PM   #1508
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Something I find a bit questionable about this conversation with MYC is the fact that it happened after Hsu had already testified against Nee in his show trial.
How quick were you to accept the LCM's mythology about Nee?

Watchman Nee was neither a demigod nor a devil. He was a flawed man like the rest of us. If this story places some doubts on the ridiculous mythology the LCM has built around him and Lee then that's a good thing, IMHO. I even think Nee would admit that now.

I don't totally accept the story. But I think there is probably something to it. And I have more sensible reason to believe it than I have to believe what the LCM wants everyone to believe about Nee, and Lee.

God is going to humble anyone who lifts himself up too high. And Nee and Lee fed the fire of their followers' idolatry of them. We all have histories that would expose us and make us look like clowns if we pretended to be anything close to what the LCM pretends Nee and Lee were. So did they. There is no doubt about that, because they were men like us.

To paraphrase the old saying: The bigger they think they are, the harder they fall.
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Old 01-21-2017, 05:05 PM   #1509
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Who's condescending? Who made you court prosecutor?
I told you what I have seen and heard. You repeatedly asked for details. You don't like what you heard. You can believe anything you want.
Can I be excused now?
Lee never said what you cited. In fact, I showed you where he said something quite different. Yet, you insist that you "heard" something else but cannot prove it.
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Old 01-21-2017, 05:06 PM   #1510
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I heard Lee and others say on several occasions that Watchman Nee was excommunicated from the church in Shanghai in 1942 because he answered "yes" when asked if he was living with another woman.

Did you hear it? How long were you in the LC's? How many trainings and conferences have you gone to? Why haven't you noticed the huge discrepancies between his spoken messages and the written messages?

I also heard Lee tell this story in person, more than once. Of course, the woman Nee was living with was his mother.

In the "spoken v written" messages department I was shocked to hear Lee speak the "man becomes God" messages in Dallas. Since I was not meeting with the church at the time, I purchased the messages in print to verify what Lee said. The "man becomes God" text was nowhere to be found in those messages.

I was skeptical about the "My Unforgettable Memories" book. After reading it, I no longer doubted that she was telling the truth. Her story was compelling.

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Old 01-21-2017, 05:11 PM   #1511
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How quick were you to accept the LCM's mythology about Nee?

Watchman Nee was neither a demigod nor a devil. He was a flawed man like the rest of us. If this story places some doubts on the ridiculous mythology the LCM has built around him and Lee then that's a good thing, IMHO. I even think Nee would admit that now.

I don't totally accept the story. I don't even necessarily believe every detail. But I think there is probably something to it. And I have more sensible reason to believe it than I have to believe what the LCM wants everyone to believe about Nee, and Lee.

God is going to humble anyone who lifts himself up too high. And Nee and Lee fed the fire of their followers' idolatry of them. We all have histories that would expose us and make us look like clowns if we pretended to be anything close to what the LCM pretends Nee and Lee were. So did they, there is no doubt about that, because they were men like us.
Thank you. If you think the truth concerning Nee is somewhere in between Lee's and Hsu's depictions, then I am inclined to agree with you. But at this point, I am not interested in Hsu's accounts of brothels and prostitutes and rapes of coworkers anymore than I am interested in Lee's hagiography.
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Old 01-21-2017, 05:15 PM   #1512
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I also heard Lee tell this story in person, more than once. Of course, the woman Nee was living with was his mother.

I was skeptical about the "My Unforgettable Memories" book. After reading it, I no longer doubted that she was telling the truth. Her story was compelling.

Nell
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Lee never said what you cited. In fact, I showed you where he said something quite different. Yet, you insist that you "heard" something else but cannot prove it. Okay.
How would you know, since you were not there?

You now have two witnesses who told you what they heard. Scripture says that's all you need.

It wasn't the first time Lee changed his story when it came time to write a book.

He did the same thing in Fermentation.

With sons like Philip and Timothy, how can you believe everything Lee said?
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Old 01-21-2017, 05:17 PM   #1513
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Thank you. If you think the truth concerning Nee is somewhere in between Lee's and Hsu's depictions, then I am inclined to agree with you. But at this point, I am not interested in Hsu's accounts of brothels and prostitutes and rapes of coworkers anymore than I am interested in Lee's hagiography.
I understand that. But I think the firsthand account of Miao was probably real. I think Nee probably had an affair with her. But it was probably in the 1920s. They were both young. They were probably both thinking they might marry each other some day.

Is that so bad? It happens all the time. So I think Miao's remorse decades later was unfortunate. It was ancient history. It sullied neither of them in any unredeemable way.

But it does, if true, expose Nee as a typical man and human being like the rest of us. Which, as I said, is a good thing at this point.
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Old 01-21-2017, 06:48 PM   #1514
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Lee never said what you cited. In fact, I showed you where he said something quite different. Yet, you insist that you "heard" something else but cannot prove it.
Happens all the time here.

Facts are not important but anything that advances the group think narrative is perfectly acceptable and encouraged. Attributing sayings to Brother Lee that he did not really say is a favorite pasttime. Hearsay as fact is another. It played out here before our eyes again today in this thread.

It's just the nature of the beast.

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Old 01-21-2017, 07:14 PM   #1515
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church

Hate to have to tell you this, but you are describing the group you are in.
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Old 01-21-2017, 08:02 PM   #1516
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Hate to have to tell you this, but you are describing the group you are in.
I thought he sounded familiar.
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Old 01-22-2017, 06:41 AM   #1517
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Hate to have to tell you this, but you are describing the group you are in.
Igzy,

One of the prominent characteristics of groupthink is confirmation bias exhibited in this thread in our conversation yesterday. The "ingroup members" dialogue in this forum for most topics fits a classic definition of this phenomenon.

Wikipedia: Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

Igzy, I challenged you and others in our exchange on most of the attributes above including ambiguous evidence, attitude polarization, belief perseverance, and illusory correlation.

Try to be objective and resist the temptation to redirect it to another group. I am using our recent dialogue in this thread as the example.

I'm not trying to hurt you or put you down.

Think about it.

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Old 01-22-2017, 07:32 AM   #1518
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Igzy,

One of the prominent characteristics of groupthink is confirmation bias exhibited in this thread in our conversation yesterday. The "ingroup members" dialogue in this forum for most topics fits a classic definition of this phenomenon.

Igzy, I challenged you and others in our exchange on most of the attributes above including ambiguous evidence, attitude polarization, belief perseverance, and illusory correlation.

Try to be objective and resist the temptation to redirect it to another group. I am using our recent dialogue in this thread as the example.

I'm not trying to hurt you or put you down.

Think about it.

Drake
Drake,

I do think about this kind of thing a lot. I try not to let my biases affect my thinking.

Do you think about it when considering how you think? Aren't LCMers warned to be "not negative?" Aren't LCMers disciplined for being "negative?" Isn't that the same thing as being programmed to be biased toward positive things about the LCM and against negative things? So aren't LCMers practically commanded to have a confirmation bias?

There is no similar commandment on this forum.

I was actually trying to point out the same kind of issue with your thinking. But I did it in a different way. I asked why you are so quick to consider Nee as some kind of "Minister of the Age" while resisting evidence that he was as imperfect as the rest of us. Instead of honestly answering that question you just mocked it and accused me of submitting irrelevancies.

You forget I was in the LCM. I know how the psychology works and how persuasive it is. Its confirmations brainwashed me into believing things there was insufficient evidence for. Yet I believed them wholeheartedly. Why? Why did I do that? Because I was sold on a culture that told me I could not exist without it. That's pretty strong psychological stuff for a young naive Christian.

Ask yourself, why do you defend the LCM so staunchly? Is it because you truly believe in all they do, or because you are afraid not to?

When I read Lily Hsu's book I ask myself, why would she, at this late date, write this? She obviously is still a practicing Christian and near the end of her life. I find it hard to believe she would go to so much trouble to pass on a pack of lies knowing she is close to her judgment.

You clearly want to believe Nee was what Lee said he was, some kind of super apostle and specially-anointed saint who achieved levels of spirituality and purity the rest of us only dream about. But why do you want to believe that? What evidence do you have that is the way he really was? Why do you believe Lee's stories about him without question yet are so quick to dismiss Hsu's story as just Communist bunk?

So don't you have a confirmation bias as well?

This forum has allowed stories and testimonies of LCM corruption to be heard. These stories, if told within LCM walls would result in silencing, discipline and likely excommunication. We have testimony after testimony of people who brought things to light who suffered abuse by the hands of your leaders and members simply because their consciences could not tolerate the contradictions anymore. You can't blame those stories on Communist propaganda. And you can't blame the acceptance of such overwhelming evidence on "group-think" or "confirmation bias." There is just too much of it.

Lily's Hsu's story is just one more piece that fits easily with the rest because it tells the same tale. She clearly had at least a second-row seat to the happenings during that period. She deserves more than just to be swept under the rug like the LCM swept away the sisters that Philip Lee molested.

If this had been a LCM-loyalist's book written with detail and personal accounts like Hsu's book yet with a pro-LCM spin, I'm sure the LCM would laud the book as a great contribution to Christian history, yet with no more evidence it was true than they have for Hsu's book.

That's confirmation bias.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:53 AM   #1519
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Try to be objective and resist the temptation to redirect it to another group. I am using our recent dialogue in this thread as the example.
Try to be objective in the LSM affiliated local churches and see where it gets you. Suggest quarantines were unsubstantiated, and see if you are labeled as negative or positive.
Group think culture in the local churches doesn't permit brothers and sisters to expressive themselves objectively.
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:02 AM   #1520
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Igzy,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Allow me to respond in kind.

I will clarify some base assumptions about my point of view.

First, I do not recognize the local churches you describe. If I did, I might very well have left a long time ago. My experience is very different. I have lived in several places and visited churches in many more all over the globe. I acknowledge that others have a different experience but out of the many localities I have lived and served in I never found one I could not make a home in in spite of incidents that occurred. A vision of God's purpose, enjoyment of the Lord, the spiritual blessings experienced, and the closeness of a spiritual family were far too valuable to not work through issues. Furthermore, no elders or leading ones ever controlled my life, what I read, what I said in the meetings. If I accepted a request to speak at a conference I would be provided an outline for the messages I was to cover however, what I spoke would be based on the Lord's leading.

Nor is my view of the leadership based on some version of hero worship (my words of what many here describe). My respect and honor towards Watchman Nee's contribution as a servant of the Lord was formed before I even knew there was a Lord's Recovery. I consider Brother Lee a brother, albeit a very gifted one, and through his ministry the Lord shined, supplied, strengthened, and drew me ever closer to Himself. I never put Brother Lee on a pedestal. I followed him as he followed the Lord. An occasional public correction was uncomfortable but Brother Lee was also willing to pray with me and my family when he rightly sensed my personal need. And, I have found every one of the current leading brothers to be gracious and caring in public or in my home. They all have their shortcomings as do we all.

Nobody tells me what to think Igzy, I form my views based on my own assessment. You and others describe some sort of Orwellian society that I have never witnessed and I think I have been close enough to know.

As to Hsu's account and why I don't accept her account readily.

First and foremost I find the allegations unlikely about a brother who spoke the things Brother Nee spoke, the enlightenment from the Word, the flow of life from his ministry, the sacrifice of his life in standing for the Lord, his willingness to stand firm facing imprisonment and persecution all speak to the character of this servant. Before the Lord I trust that. This does not mean he was infallible. No man is, except One. However, just because every christian could fall does not add any weight to an allegation that he did.

Secondly, these allegations Hsu cites were a common tactic from the communists to stamp out all christian movements that did not conform to the government controlled TPSM. Not only Watchman Nee but many servants of the Lord suffered the same thing. Even Christians turned against these servants falsely testifying in public shamings. Some to save their own lives or gain favor from the authorities. Fact is, you cannot take as credible a single word that came out of those trials. Given a choice in confidence between a godly man like Watchman Nee and the allegations of the atheist government of Mao it is a no-brainer. Brother Nee hands down.

Thirdly, many close to Watchman Nee, including Brother Kaung and Kinnear, never mentioned these allegations. Given the many who were very close to Brother Nee compared to Hsu's knowledge and the timing of these allegations during the crackdown on christian groups I would say at best she was a victim of the times. Keep in mind she was but 10 years old in 1942 and in her early twenties when the persecutions began and Brother Nee was tried and convicted. I seriously doubt she as a young person under those circumstances would be able to sort through it all. I doubt few of us would have at that age and under those circumstances. As to her book, she presents herself as in the know but she was not even born in those early days of the Spirit's move in China and only a young person when the persecution started to unfold. She obviously is borrowing someone else's account for anything other than what she saw directly in SCH as a kid or from the trials. She is nevertheless, entitled to an opinion about what she heard from others but it should be taken as that and weighed against the testimony of others like Brother's Lee, Kaung, Kinnear, Lyall who knew Watchman Nee best.

Those are my reasons Igzy. They are not only plausible but probable and the most likely to use your term.

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Old 01-22-2017, 07:26 PM   #1521
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

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Thank you. If you think the truth concerning Nee is somewhere in between Lee's and Hsu's depictions, then I am inclined to agree with you. But at this point, I am not interested in Hsu's accounts of brothels and prostitutes and rapes of coworkers anymore than I am interested in Lee's hagiography.
I definitely agree with this, and probably all the other posters here would say the same. If Hsu's account is true, there is no rejoicing here or anywhere. "Love does not take account of evil."

For me, Hsu's account discredits Lee as much as Nee. Lee exalted Nee for personal gain, and Lee destroyed Ingalls et. al. for personal gain.
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Old 01-23-2017, 12:00 PM   #1522
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First and foremost I find the allegations unlikely about a brother who spoke the things Brother Nee spoke. . .
So the perceived quality of his teaching of the word makes him unable to do anything like what it charged.

Do you suppose that David was not really a man after God's heart? After all, he committed adultery and had the woman's husband killed.

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. . . the enlightenment from the Word, the flow of life from his ministry. . . .
Whatever that is.

A warm feeling? Butterflies in the stomach?

This is one of the most subjective claims of spirituality that there is. One that is based upon my emotional reaction to words that are consistent with those that I have been conditioned to accept as true without a thought that they might not really be true. Just inspiring and heart-warming.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:48 AM   #1523
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Nobody tells me what to think Igzy, I form my views based on my own assessment. You and others describe some sort of Orwellian society that I have never witnessed and I think I have been close enough to know.
When did you join the movement? What do you really know about the history of the movement?

You keep going back to the communists. I agree they should not be trusted as far as we can throw them, and I agree that stories planted by communists should not be trusted. But this still does not explain the testimony of Miao (MYC) witnessed personally by Hsu not at a trial but in the safety of a private living room. She testified of an affair with Nee when they were young. I already said I don't hold that against either of them. But I have no doubt that kind of thing was quite possible, even for Nee. Further it does not explain the pattern of abuse by the movement's leaders which carried over to the US (ideas like "MOTA" and "handing over" are abusive and exploitive, plain and simple.)

You have no explanation for why Hsu would record such things at this late date. Do you view her as you view anyone outside your movement, as if we all have dark motives to discredit your pure and holy realm? Be honest, the real reason you need keep Nee in such a lofty pedestal is because you need to believe he was the harbinger of the ultimate move of God. You cannot tolerate a view where Nee stumbled into sexual sin, even in a relatively "innocent" way of sleeping with the girlfriend of his youth, because that would threaten your lofty and unique image of him and thus your movement.

See, Drake, this is in fact the gist of the problem. It's not good enough that you have a nice movement of the Lord with some advantages and benefits over the mainstream (along with some unfortunate disadvantages). You have to be THE move of the Lord, and everything else has to be lesser.

This is the part I don't understand. Why is that such a need for you people? Why do you need to elevate your thing so high that everything else pales by comparison? And why is it worth it to damage those who do not necessary believe that by labeling them rebels, opposers, impure, unclear, blind, natural, fleshly, divisive, Moabites or whatever? These are all terms Lee used to describe Christians outside the LCM.

Why?
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Old 01-31-2017, 11:38 AM   #1524
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Drake) "the flow of life..."

OBW) "Whatever that is.

A warm feeling? Butterflies in the stomach?

This is one of the most subjective claims of spirituality that there is. One that is based upon my emotional reaction to words that are consistent with those that I have been conditioned to accept as true without a thought that they might not really be true. Just inspiring and heart-warming.
"

OBW,

Much more than a warm feeling or butterflies in the stomach. I don't put much credence in those type senses either. Yet the anointing and guiding of the Holy Spirit is real and when you experience it you never forget it.

But, arguing with someone who doesn't believe in the flow of life and accompanying experience is similar to trying to convince an unbeliever of a dynamic experience of regeneration. They scoff and tell you its just psychological, mental, or emotion.

Probably a discussion for another topic.

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Old 01-31-2017, 12:50 PM   #1525
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Igzy)"See, Drake, this is in fact the gist of the problem. It's not good enough that you have a nice movement of the Lord with some advantages and benefits over the mainstream (along with some unfortunate disadvantages). You have to be THE move of the Lord, and everything else has to be lesser.

This is the part I don't understand. Why is that such a need for you people? Why do you need to elevate your thing so high that everything else pales by comparison? And why is it worth it to damage those who do not necessary believe that by labeling them rebels, opposers, impure, unclear, blind, natural, fleshly, divisive, Moabites or whatever? These are all terms Lee used to describe Christians outside the LCM.

Why?"



Igzy,

You people?

I am not an official representative of the "you people". I speak here as an individual contributor. My viewpoints are mine and mine alone just to be clear though they may from time to time mirror closely to the "you people" from your vantage point. I'm happy to discuss these matters with that understanding.

I explained previously why not a single word can be trusted that came out of those communist brainwashing shaming trials. I don't trust the so called evidence, I don't trust the script writers, nor the actors, nor the so-called extorted confessions. I don't trust any so-called private meetings which were then reported to the communist authorities. Hsu admits many things don't make sense (e.g. she doubts how Watchman Nee had the means as a young man to own and drive a new car around Shanghai or gain access to a movie camera). In that era, false accusations were demanded and even that may not be enough to save an accuser from an organized persecution directed at them. Lily Hsu, by her own account, stood up in that "trial" and accused Brother Nee out of anger and emotion. She was used. Who among us know what threats were made, what arrangements were put in place, how "testimonies" were extracted? Not even Hsu knew for certain. Pieces still did not make sense to her. She just got swept along with the rest and became a victim herself. Many servants of the Lord suffered in the same way as Watchman Nee.

The communists wrote the script, secured the actors, and orchestrated the play flawlessly.

And just to be sure there is no misunderstanding, I don't think anybody here knows exactly how they would have behaved under the same circumstances. I put my name at the top of that list.

Now as to why Lily Hsu would write the book? Well, she was obviously put up to it by Joshua Yu and Dana Roberts. Most of the book is a history of Watchman Nee that she did not know or experience. Other than her being a young person that was part of a study/prayer group for less than a decade before his imprisonment all her accounts are second hand. She is writing someone else's version of history of Watchman Nee. She was used by the communists in 1956 to accuse Brother Nee and she is still being used by others to accuse him through these "unforgettable memories" of Watchman Nee. She writes of events 15 and 20 years before she was born and adds he was writing the Spiritual Man at that time. That reeks of someone wanting to take Watchman Nee down several notches. Who and why?

Finally, Watchman Nee is not above failure. He, like all of us, are part of the fallen creation. The question is not whether Watchman Nee could have fallen into this particular sin, the question is whether he did. Unless one is predisposed to believe it there are overwhelming reasons to disregard it.

So why are you, Igzy, so enthusiastically embracing these accusations against a brother and servant of God, one who forfeited freedom for his faith?

Why?

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Old 02-01-2017, 06:56 AM   #1526
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Much more than a warm feeling or butterflies in the stomach. I don't put much credence in those type senses either. Yet the anointing and guiding of the Holy Spirit is real and when you experience it you never forget it.
I am fully conversant with experience of the anointing and guiding of the Holy Spirit.

But the thing called "the flow of life" in the LRC (from my 14+ years experience there) is that this is a much broader concept that deals with so much and would require that you have some kind of sense of the Spirit at all times. But everyone knows that this is not the case. Our lives are not constantly under the direction of the Holy Spirit in that kind of way. The leading of the Holy Spirit is mostly through what we read and already know. Our alignment with what we know to be true and to be what is the righteous, just, etc., is just the kind of thing that "walking by the Spirit" is intended to be. It is not something that has feelings attached to it (at least not most of the time). The only sense that we should need in most cases is the knowledge that we have acted according to the manner in which our Lord directed through his words and his actions.

But beyond that, the problem with the term "flow of life" in the context of the LRC is that it is generally associated with things like keeping people on the same page with respect to the way meetings should be held, or what ministry should be read. And that last one is the very kind of thing that Paul warned so strongly against. Keeping to one minister to the exclusion of others, and even going so far as to elevate the status of that minister above the level of "servant" says much about the kind of "flow of life" that is being talked about.

That "flow of life" is the sense that you get from being certain of your superiority. Of getting swept away in the mob-like activities of a meeting that is whipping things into a frenzy. When the flow of life comes from meetings and from "pray-reading" the words of a minister almost to the exclusion of the scripture that is claimed to underpin him, then it is more about butterflies and bad tacos. And that is what I saw for years and what seems to be described over and over by the LRC faithful. They keep trotting out terms like "flow of life" as the reason that they must plug their ears and cover their eyes when evidence is placed in front of them indicating that the emperor has no clothes. That is not the flow of life. It is the unscriptural dogma of a sect following a wanna-be minister who is mainly fleecing the sheep.

Well, was mainly fleecing the sheep. But somehow the fleecing has not stopped. his shears seem to operate from the grave through the willing following of those who cannot fathom that their MOTA was a fraud.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:36 AM   #1527
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So why are you, Igzy, so enthusiastically embracing these accusations against a brother and servant of God, one who forfeited freedom for his faith?

Why?

Drake
I never read where Igzy was "so enthusiastically embracing these accusations."

But I will tell you why I no longer believe the lies Lee told us about Nee's excommunication by the Shanghai eldership ...

Because of the way Lee lied to us in the book "Fermentation." Because of the way he refused to protect the LC's and especially the sisters from his pathetic sons, Phillip and Timothy. Now, having rotten kids can happen to any of us, including even notable Bible figures like Adam (Cain), Abraham (Ishmael), Isaac (Esau), Eli, Samuel, David, Solomon, etc.

What makes Lee's actions so much more obnoxious was when he placed his boys in positions of power, the exact same thing he taught others never to do. He witnessed their abuses and thefts for decades, yet did nothing to protect the children of God from these monsters. Then, even worse, he destroyed the reputations of every man of God (John Ingalls et. al.) who dared to speak up and protect the saints.

How can you trust a person like that? For me to believe Lee's account of Nee's excommunication story, is for me to believe that the Shanghai elders appointed by Nee were total imbeciles.
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Old 02-02-2017, 05:36 AM   #1528
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OBW) "That "flow of life" is the sense that you get from being certain of your superiority. Of getting swept away in the mob-like activities of a meeting that is whipping things into a frenzy. When the flow of life comes from meetings and from "pray-reading" the words of a minister almost to the exclusion of the scripture that is claimed to underpin him, then it is more about butterflies and bad tacos. And that is what I saw for years and what seems to be described over and over by the LRC faithful. They keep trotting out terms like "flow of life" as the reason that they must plug their ears and cover their eyes when evidence is placed in front of them indicating that the emperor has no clothes. That is not the flow of life. It is the unscriptural dogma of a sect following a wanna-be minister who is mainly fleecing the sheep."

OBW,

Why would you spend 14 days, much less 14 years, in such an Orwellian place?

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Old 02-02-2017, 05:56 AM   #1529
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I agree with you that the trial by the communist government must be suspect. I agree that many of the witnesses must be suspect as well.

However, in my experience the excommunication (discipline) from the Shanghai elders must be respected. To take on someone like Watchman Nee would be a very difficult thing to do and certainly something that they would not have all agreed to do without clear and convincing proof.

What Witness Lee basically alleged was a coup with a false accusation. Yet when the coup was overthrown there was no action taken against the "conspirators" with the false accusation. Witness Lee does not provide any evidence of his allegations, nor does he even provide a paper trail of the account we all heard repeatedly. Because of the trial and conviction of WN in China it was even more imperative for WL to give a clear counter argument from his sanctuary in Taiwan. He never did this.

As difficult as it would be for the elders to discipline WN, I think it would be even more difficult and require even more convincing evidence to prove that these charges were false, yet we have no evidence other than an absurd story from WL.

Also, this story from WL requires that we accept a warped and perverted view of what it is to "take the cross". If WN was called by God to this ministry why would he let a few jealous elders shut it down based on a falsehood? Wouldn't that falsehood damage new believers, and all those like us who later hear the story?

Are we really to believe that WN due to his spirituality kept his mouth shut and stayed away from ministry because of a bunch of liars, and that this same doctrine of the crucified life is also applied to explaining why Witness Lee sued Christians for referring to the Lord's Recovery Church as a cult?

Finally, what happened to the elders that took on PL's infidelity? We know that they were not making it up, they did not confuse a sister with his mother. WL had them discredited publicly, just as he did with the elders in Shanghai. There is no dispute about any of that.
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Old 02-02-2017, 06:02 AM   #1530
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I never read where Igzy was "so enthusiastically embracing these accusations."

But I will tell you why I no longer believe the lies Lee told us about Nee's excommunication by the Shanghai eldership ...

Because of the way Lee lied to us in the book "Fermentation." Because of the way he refused to protect the LC's and especially the sisters from his pathetic sons, Phillip and Timothy. Now, having rotten kids can happen to any of us, including even notable Bible figures like Adam (Cain), Abraham (Ishmael), Isaac (Esau), Eli, Samuel, David, Solomon, etc.

What makes Lee's actions so much more obnoxious was when he placed his boys in positions of power, the exact same thing he taught others never to do. He witnessed their abuses and thefts for decades, yet did nothing to protect the children of God from these monsters. Then, even worse, he destroyed the reputations of every man of God (John Ingalls et. al.) who dared to speak up and protect the saints.

How can you trust a person like that? For me to believe Lee's account of Nee's excommunication story, is for me to believe that the Shanghai elders appointed by Nee were total imbeciles.

I understand your view Ohio. No matter the topic, you eventually end up in the same place, the same offense explains almost everything thats bad in our world. It's a place to go to that no one can refute. It happened. It was wrong. Therefore, if you steer the argument there a victory dance on his grave happens right on cue.

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Old 02-02-2017, 06:21 AM   #1531
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Also, this story from WL requires that we accept a warped and perverted view of what it is to "take the cross". If WN was called by God to this ministry why would he let a few jealous elders shut it down based on a falsehood? Wouldn't that falsehood damage new believers, and all those like us who later hear the story?
ZNP,

No, not really inconsistent at all. Was the Lord warped and perverted for taking beatings and tolerating false accusations by not showing forth His glory as He did on Mount Hermon or calling down angelic armies to keep him from dashing his foot? Would not those have been more convincing about His mission than suffering silently like a sheep led to the slaughter? Why not defend Himself?

What's the principle there?

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Old 02-02-2017, 07:10 AM   #1532
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ZNP,

No, not really inconsistent at all. Was the Lord warped and perverted for taking beatings and tolerating false accusations by not showing forth His glory as He did on Mount Hermon or calling down angelic armies to keep him from dashing his foot? Would not those have been more convincing about His mission than suffering silently like a sheep led to the slaughter? Why not defend Himself?

What's the principle there?

Drake
Jesus entire earthly ministry was in direct conflict with the religious leaders of the day. They tried to silence him, he wasn't silenced. They tried to stop Him, He didn't stop. They slandered and defamed Him, yet He continued to minister.

I would compare any false accusations, and slander to what Jesus endured at the hands of the religious community during His ministry to the supposed false accusation and slander of WN living with a mistress.

In the end they cut an evil deal with the Romans behind the scenes to arrest Him and kill Him. This evil deal revealed how corrupt they were.

Perhaps that could refer to the Communist trial. I can see why WN might not have challenged the charges made by the Communists even if he were innocent. This could easily be a case of a good shepherd protecting the sheep.

The principle is that Jesus crucifixion exposed the corruption of religion and government. When WN was silent and submissive to the elders of the church in Shanghai it didn't expose anything except that an admission of guilt.

Even though Jesus didn't speak to his accusers or in His defense it did expose the "monkey trial". A secret trial at night, rushed, no opportunity for a real defense, people who didn't even have jurisdiction were seeking to see Him for fleshly reasons, the penalty didn't match the crime. Even Pilate admitted publicly this was nothing but a sham.
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:25 AM   #1533
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I understand your view Ohio. No matter the topic, you eventually end up in the same place, the same offense explains almost everything thats bad in our world. It's a place to go to that no one can refute. It happened. It was wrong. Therefore, if you steer the argument there a victory dance on his grave happens right on cue.

Drake
Don't attempt to discredit grave concerns with cheap rhetoric.

Why not instead address the concerns, rebut them, or agree with them.

In a very real sense, Witness Lee's actions toward John Ingalls violated all of the Ten Commanments, every single Bible principle of leadership, and all the laws of our country.
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:50 AM   #1534
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Don't attempt to discredit grave concerns with cheap rhetoric.

Why not instead address the concerns, rebut them, or agree with them.

In a very real sense, Witness Lee's actions toward John Ingalls violated all of the Ten Commanments, every single Bible principle of leadership, and all the laws of our country.
This is really why it is so important. If you allow this person to promote this lie about WN, build up his own ministry based on this fabricated story, you are allowing this cancer to grow in the Body. Daystar just emboldened him. Sister's rebellion just further example of who he is and what he does. Lawsuits, same thing all over again. He will twist the Bible any way he needs to to support what he is doing. JI, once again shameful behavior, but part of a long pattern that should have been dealt with years ago.

The purpose is not to relive all the "hurts" but to learn from them. When a leader lies to you then that is serious and has to be dealt with. Otherwise you are promoting a false prophet.
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Old 02-02-2017, 12:10 PM   #1535
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Why would you spend 14 days, much less 14 years, in such an Orwellian place?
Ever heard of the frog in the kettle? It wasn't all evident overnight.

End everything is wrapped in such spiritual terminology as to be difficult to discern what is and is not actually spiritual.

It is like speaking out against the very idea of the "flow of life." It just sounds so obviously spiritual that it is hard to question it. And some would defend it by reference only to other seemingly spiritual things, therefore you have the appearance of spirituality causing you to question your own questions.

I do not say what I do because I want to harm anyone still trapped in that system (admittedly according to my understanding). Or to simply see some Christian organization banished. But I have come to realize that I experienced significant harm from what is being taught and practiced there. To not speak up would be to go against my conscience.

My hope is for the restoration of unity among all believers, not just those who agree to follow certain teachers, meet under the banner of certain names, etc.
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Old 02-02-2017, 01:11 PM   #1536
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End everything is wrapped in such spiritual terminology as to be difficult to discern what is and is not actually spiritual.

It is like speaking out against the very idea of the "flow of life." It just sounds so obviously spiritual that it is hard to question it.
This is why I tend to avoid the endless discussion surrounding "spiritual" teachings. For me personally, it's easier to keep aberrant teachings at arm's length.

Unrighteous and illegal activities in the ministry are entirely different. They violate every principle and command of scripture. They are exactly what Lee taught us not to do, yet he himself (or his boys) did repeatedly.

In this regard, I am reminded of our Lord's own words about the Pharisees, "do what they say, but not what they do."

Unfortunately ones like Drake are always willing to overlook the hypocrisy and unrighteousness, and keep their eyes of Lee's "vision." As dear brother Francis Ball instructed us, "I'd rather be an ostrich, with my head in the sand."
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Old 02-02-2017, 02:05 PM   #1537
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This is why I tend to avoid the endless discussion surrounding "spiritual" teachings. For me personally, it's easier to keep aberrant teachings at arm's length.

Unrighteous and illegal activities in the ministry are entirely different. They violate every principle and command of scripture. They are exactly what Lee taught us not to do, yet he himself (or his boys) did repeatedly.

In this regard, I am reminded of our Lord's own words about the Pharisees, "do what they say, but not what they do."

Unfortunately ones like Drake are always willing to overlook the hypocrisy and unrighteousness, and keep their eyes of Lee's "vision." As dear brother Francis Ball instructed us, "I'd rather be an ostrich, with my head in the sand."
There is much to be said for your approach.

The funny thing is that I cannot stomach Lee's vision any longer. It is clearly a separatist's vision, not one of oneness or inclusion. I just can't keep silent.

And it is getting me in trouble.
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Old 02-02-2017, 02:47 PM   #1538
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There is much to be said for your approach.

The funny thing is that I cannot stomach Lee's vision any longer. It is clearly a separatist's vision, not one of oneness or inclusion. I just can't keep silent.

And it is getting me in trouble.
There was much overlap -- more so initially -- between Lee's vision and the common faith. Inclusion gave way to exclusion. Liberty gave way to legalism. Love gave way to zeal for a program. Faith gave way to formality.

I just read a couple articles about how the SCOTUS jurists nearly always tend to become more liberal over time. Christian ministers, however, seem to become more legalistic and controlling over time.
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Old 02-02-2017, 04:28 PM   #1539
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Jesus entire earthly ministry was in direct conflict with the religious leaders of the day. They tried to silence him, he wasn't silenced. They tried to stop Him, He didn't stop. They slandered and defamed Him, yet He continued to minister.

I would compare any false accusations, and slander to what Jesus endured at the hands of the religious community during His ministry to the supposed false accusation and slander of WN living with a mistress.

In the end they cut an evil deal with the Romans behind the scenes to arrest Him and kill Him. This evil deal revealed how corrupt they were.

Perhaps that could refer to the Communist trial. I can see why WN might not have challenged the charges made by the Communists even if he were innocent. This could easily be a case of a good shepherd protecting the sheep.

The principle is that Jesus crucifixion exposed the corruption of religion and government. When WN was silent and submissive to the elders of the church in Shanghai it didn't expose anything except that an admission of guilt.

Even though Jesus didn't speak to his accusers or in His defense it did expose the "monkey trial". A secret trial at night, rushed, no opportunity for a real defense, people who didn't even have jurisdiction were seeking to see Him for fleshly reasons, the penalty didn't match the crime. Even Pilate admitted publicly this was nothing but a sham.
Okay.

I see the principle of a grain of wheat falling into the ground to die....

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Old 02-02-2017, 04:30 PM   #1540
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Don't attempt to discredit grave concerns with cheap rhetoric.

Why not instead address the concerns, rebut them, or agree with them.

In a very real sense, Witness Lee's actions toward John Ingalls violated all of the Ten Commanments, every single Bible principle of leadership, and all the laws of our country.
Discredit? No.

Talk about it in every thread? No thanks.

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Old 02-02-2017, 04:42 PM   #1541
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ZNP) "The purpose is not to relive all the "hurts" but to learn from them."


I agree with learning.

However, at some point, it is just wallowing.

What happened to 70X7?

I keep coming back to this thought..... when you put servants of the Lord (or anyone of regard for that matter) on a pedestal and when they fail you are crushed and never get over it. Yet, I've rarely seen it consume someone as it has some here. It did not even consume most of the ones oft mentioned here such as Ingals, Rappaport, So, Benoit.. they moved on.

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Old 02-02-2017, 04:49 PM   #1542
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Ever heard of the frog in the kettle? It wasn't all evident overnight.

End everything is wrapped in such spiritual terminology as to be difficult to discern what is and is not actually spiritual.

It is like speaking out against the very idea of the "flow of life." It just sounds so obviously spiritual that it is hard to question it. And some would defend it by reference only to other seemingly spiritual things, therefore you have the appearance of spirituality causing you to question your own questions.

I do not say what I do because I want to harm anyone still trapped in that system (admittedly according to my understanding). Or to simply see some Christian organization banished. But I have come to realize that I experienced significant harm from what is being taught and practiced there. To not speak up would be to go against my conscience.

My hope is for the restoration of unity among all believers, not just those who agree to follow certain teachers, meet under the banner of certain names, etc.
OBW,

You speak victim speak.

You made choices. You stayed even though you heard the term "the flow of life" from the get go. It sounded good to you so you stayed. Or it did not sound good to you and stayed anyway. You made that choice. People aren't trapped, that is just more victim speak. No one is detaining anyone. There is no Orwellian system entrapping and holding people. I walked in, I walked out, I walked back in. That was my choice.

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Old 02-02-2017, 04:56 PM   #1543
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

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ZNP) "The purpose is not to relive all the "hurts" but to learn from them."


I agree with learning.

However, at some point, it is just wallowing.

What happened to 70X7?

I keep coming back to this thought..... when you put servants of the Lord (or anyone of regard for that matter) on a pedestal and when they fail you are crushed and never get over it. Yet, I've rarely seen it consume someone as it has some here. It did not even consume most of the ones oft mentioned here such as Ingals, Rappaport, So, Benoit.. they moved on.

Drake
Your people took their lawsuit against Heritage House Publishers all the way to the Supreme Court.
What happened to 70X7?
Your people filed lawsuits in every GLA LC they could, quarantining brothers who had been in the Recovery for decades.
What happened to 70X7?
Witness Lee trashed denominations and the whole of Christianity his whole life. The Blendeds are still doing it.
What happened to 70X7?
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Old 02-02-2017, 05:00 PM   #1544
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Unfortunately ones like Drake are always willing to overlook the hypocrisy and unrighteousness, and keep their eyes of Lee's "vision." As dear brother Francis Ball instructed us, "I'd rather be an ostrich, with my head in the sand."

Ohio,

You delight in trumpeting the failures of others from the rooftop 24X7.

Then you hide your sins and failures from us but imagine a forum specially created to discuss your many sins day after day after day after day.

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Old 02-02-2017, 05:04 PM   #1545
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Your people took their lawsuit against Heritage House Publishers all the way to the Supreme Court.
What happened to 70X7?
Your people filed lawsuits in every GLA LC they could, quarantining brothers who had been in the Recovery for decades.
What happened to 70X7?
Witness Lee trashed denominations and the whole of Christianity his whole life. The Blendeds are still doing it.
What happened to 70X7?
Sorry Ohio.

I missed the part that was a sin against you. was that the second one?

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Old 02-02-2017, 07:02 PM   #1546
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As someone who has posted here irregularly for about perhaps 4 years, I want to sadly admit that I'm losing interest in this forum, whoever started this with good intentions, I'm sorry.

I was meeting with the LC saints for a few years and though not anymore and occasionally I have spoken out about the unloving actions I have seen in the LC, I remain grateful for the time with them because of their love for the Lord.

And today I remain very very grateful for brother Nee and his work. As a young Chinese whose family has suffered a lot from the communist's persecution, I have witnessed the ways of how they can use false evidence to deceive people and put people into immense torture and death, while the people are innocent. They did it 50 years ago, and they still do it today. I urge that those who were not raised in mainland china or haven't not tasted the horrifying wickedness of the party to stop spending time on these topics.

While I have read many of these accusations and I don't even care for them, I find extremely disturbing some of you are spending time on hoping whether these things are true are not. In fact you will never be able to do so until we all face the lord one day in the judgment seat. We are not God, so could you please stop wasting time and let the lord do his judging when we see Him again?

If that's the case, why don't you guys bring up the fact that some in China have said Hsu has sold her faith and is not a genuine Christian anymore? The fact is we don't know. Slander and gossip are one of the worst sins we can ever commit and we will reap what we sow.

While many of the older generation of Chinese Christians respect Nee really, I Know someone who once published a book, not the one that you mentioned, to discredit Nee's labor. All the evidence he has used were again based to the communist party's information and this author is known to many to be a proud, arrogant person. I don't want to think of any of you here this way.

I always thought this forum is for us to learn from the goods and bass we have tasted from the LC, and to know the Lord deeper together regardless of us being a LC saint or not. I'm so disappointed that these kinds of discussions keep going until today.
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Old 02-03-2017, 07:28 AM   #1547
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You delight in trumpeting the failures of others from the rooftop 24X7. Then you hide your sins and failures from us but imagine a forum specially created to discuss your many sins day after day after day after day.
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While I have read many of these accusations and I don't even care for them, I find extremely disturbing some of you are spending time on hoping whether these things are true are not. In fact you will never be able to do so until we all face the lord one day in the judgment seat. We are not God, so could you please stop wasting time and let the lord do his judging when we see Him again?
Is there any doubt that Watchman Nee was a sinner saved by grace, just like those of us who post on this forum, and just like sister Hsu? Before the age of grace, God saw fit to bring forth the good, the bad and the ugly of nearly every leader of Gods people. The gamut runs from Noah, through to Abraham, Issac and Jacob, on to Moses, David and Solomon. Could any of us...could Watchman Nee, have survived unscathed through the crucible of serving God apart from the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Now we find ourselves in the age of grace, albeit still within a graceless and merciless world. Most of us were "separated from Christ..having no hope and without God in the world". This fact holds true for those whom God has seen fit to endow with great gifts of knowledge, spiritual fortitude and even the courage of a martyr, all the way down to "the least of these".

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.(Luke 12:48) Of course we are all very familiar with this verse, but maybe not so much with the verse that comes before: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.(vs 47) Much had been committed to Watchman Nee, and along with great commitment came great expectations of great and wonderful things. Also, along with great commitment from men came all the temptations for any man made of flesh and blood.

Far be it from any of us to mete out any stripes. The "much required" must only come from the hand of the "giver of the much". However, as men who have followed and committed much to our Christian leaders, we not only have the right, we have the duty to hold them fully accountable for their actions. I think the elders who disciplined Watchman Nee were doing their God-ordained duty to hold him accountable. The record of this action is not muddied or sullied by any accusations of the communists, this is clear and without dispute.

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Old 02-03-2017, 08:29 AM   #1548
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You delight in trumpeting the failures of others from the rooftop 24X7.
Then you hide your sins and failures from us but imagine a forum specially created to discuss your many sins day after day after day after day.
Sorry, Drake, but Lee and LSM have heartily condemned the whole of Christianity, and by his own words, for close to 70 years. He spared no one. Whether it was contemporary Christian ministers or past men of God before and after the coming of Christ, all were subject to his endless criticisms. Listening to him on a regular basis for almost 30 years, I was given the definite impression that only he and Nee were faultless god-men, ministers of the age, the unique oracles of God, consummate apostles, etc. And just in case we misunderstood Lee's self-implicating aggrandizements from the podium, his surrogates made it exceedingly clear to us who Lee was in private.

I believed it all. For many years I believed everything I was told. I was a loyal foot soldier in the "move of God." I risked every part of my life in order to maintain my allegiance. No one can question my loyalties. I have numerous "brands" to prove them.

Then the Blendeds decided that we in the GLA were their enemies. Threats came. New rules and publication bans came. Quarantines came. Lawsuits came. Training sessions in insubordination came. Churches and saints were badly hurt. I was burdened by the Lord to study what was really happening. Eventually what I uncovered about Lee simply shocked me. His credibility was built on sinking sand like a house of cards held together by lackeys willing to attack and destroy any and all whistle-blowers who spoke their conscience on behalf of God Himself and righteousness.

That said, I still appreciate all the good things I received from Lee. It was he who shot himself in the foot. Like political coverups, his crimes multiplied with his refusal to come clean and repent. That's the difference here. He hurt people and then lied about it. Then he attacked those who refused to believe his lies. The long trail of "persecutors," which we regularly heard of in his meetings and messages, were not "persecutors" at all. They were just men of God crying out for righteousness.
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:09 PM   #1549
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Reading the posts, those positive for the local churches and LSM publications, answer this one question:
At what point do the elders and co-workers become accountable to the localities they serve?
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:31 PM   #1550
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Okay.

I see the principle of a grain of wheat falling into the ground to die....

Drake
Perhaps, if "falling into the ground to die" means to be removed from contact from all of those you are caring for.

I think Galatians is more applicable, not the verse that says it is no longer I that live but Christ lives in me, no the verse where Paul says "I did not give place to them for five minutes". It is not the cross to allow phony baloney lies and slander to prevent you from ministering to the sheep as a shepherd of the flock.

On the other hand, putting up with the slander as though you are the off scouring of the world, that would be to take the cross, rather than bringing a lawsuit against the Christians.

To my understanding WL's account of WN was baloney and is not an example of taking the cross. Likewise, WL's lawsuits were baloney and were not an example of taking the cross.
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:35 PM   #1551
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Drake, once again I'll say it--hopefully now you can consider directly and honestly.

It is my feeling that the LCM venerates Nee and Lee excessively and to a fault. This leads to many offences, such as telling impressionable young people that if they leave the movement they are leaving "God's best." Benson Phillips is on record as saying that if you leave the movement "there is no way for the growth process to continue." That's a quote. I and many here are witness to such claims.

Simply put such claims are of the devil. They and their ilk have wreaked much damage. Of this point you seem in complete denial.

In order for this mindset to be taken down, the idols of Nee and Lee need to come down. The point is not to label them as devils, the point is to label them as fallen men, and nothing more, not divine seers, not MOTAs, just men, like the rest of us, and thus the movement as just another movement.

To that end anything that helps that cause should be welcomed. And you should welcome it. This is not to say that we should embrace lies, just that when a totem is cut down to size we all should rejoice.
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:43 PM   #1552
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Christian ministers, however, seem to become more legalistic and controlling over time.
I think this is overly simplistic and points at the ones that make the headlines for problems. Or that we know as having gone that way (like Lee). I believe that most are not that way, and don't simply move toward control over time. We are just hearing about the ones that did.

As for Lee, I don't think you would have had a better time earlier if he hadn't needed to be less controlling while he "captured" us under his spell.
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Old 02-03-2017, 01:07 PM   #1553
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You speak victim speak.

You made choices. You stayed even though you heard the term "the flow of life" from the get go. It sounded good to you so you stayed. Or it did not sound good to you and stayed anyway. You made that choice. People aren't trapped, that is just more victim speak. No one is detaining anyone. There is no Orwellian system entrapping and holding people. I walked in, I walked out, I walked back in. That was my choice.
Yes. We all made choices. But for me those choices were made in a vacuum of information. There was a flavor of spirituality in everything said. It was wrapped in scripture. It was just so much coming so fast that it was not possible to stop and recognize what did not add up.

You take the approach that everyone has all the knowledge they need to make a sound decision. That just isn't always the case.

You're logic would declare that those that were members of a reasonable sane Christian sect in the SF Bay area were aware of everything when they decided to move to South America. And then were fully aware of what was going on when they decided that drinking the Kool-Aid was the right way to go.

We are sure that somewhere along the way that those people bought into something that they didn't really think through clearly. And they weren't just a bunch of mental midgets incapable of seeing through things.

The difference is that after the fact I see something that you clearly have not seen. The LRC is not a safe place. It is not a logical choice in light of the actual scripture. But if there is a garlic room in which up is down and left is right, it is in the LRC. It is the place where demeaning of brothers and sisters in Christ is done in the name of oneness. Where every meeting except the Lord's table is regulated from Anaheim yet you can't see the denomination in it. Where the understanding of the scripture must e checked against what Lee said about it. And were some parts of scripture are essentially excised from the book because Lee said it was "natural" or not "in God's economy."

You are right that no one is detaining anyone. But when the dogma is that anyone who leaves will be spiritually bereft, wandering in a wasteland, there is a psychological hold. And when the rhetoric about how everyone else's doctrines and practices can only get them to the level of "daughters of Babylon," then you have been psychologically conditioned to refrain from joining with any other Christians.

Once again, all in the name of oneness.

Your leader was a master at the use of logical error to gain followers in spiritual error.

Declare that I am just a bitter one who left. That I just want to complain. Actually, I do not. But I cannot fathom just leaving the few that I still know in a place that I believe is so nearly evil in its source when there are so many good Christians and Christian organizations in which to find excellent fellowship and "pasture."

The book that this thread discussed is full of first and second-hand evidence that there is something rotten in the very core of what we call the Local Churches. Their leaders were corrupt in ways that Paul would have had run out of town over. The insistence on "one trumpet" would never have been allowed to disguise just one more "I'm of." This time "of Lee."

You will come back and say that what I have said is not true.

So what? You don't even really consider anything that is said with more detail and support that should make you reconsider. You just dismiss it. Say that we are just bitter. If I didn't know people actually suffering in there, I would never look back.
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Old 02-03-2017, 02:38 PM   #1554
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I think this is overly simplistic and points at the ones that make the headlines for problems. Or that we know as having gone that way (like Lee). I believe that most are not that way, and don't simply move toward control over time. We are just hearing about the ones that did.

As for Lee, I don't think you would have had a better time earlier if he hadn't needed to be less controlling while he "captured" us under his spell.
Agreed.

And, after reading countless stories, the GLA leadership definitely filtered out much of the craziness that came out of Lee and LSM. We did have our issues, but the early push to "return to the pure word" was clung to much longer.

Some of Lee's money-grabbing and power-grabbing schemes like Daystar and Linko seems to have completely missed us. Many thanks to Brother Titus Chu for keeping us from some of the winds and waves emanating from Anaheim. Except for the constant pressure on him, we might have been completely sheltered from the nonsense which regularly rippled across the Recovery.

Let's face it, the Lord was real to us in the beginning of our LC experience. Many of us were led there by the Lord. Early on LC leaders had a way of helping new believers taste the joy of salvation by opening our mouths in worship to the Lord. All of that was quite good and appreciated.

What was not appreciated was the leaven that accompanied the gospel message. We got bewitched much the same as the Galatians did. Not by circumcision, Jerusalem, and hatred for the Gentiles, but by locality, Anaheim, and the hatred of Christianity. Different agencies, but the same result: bringing us under subjection, evidenced by how they bite and devour one another.
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Old 02-03-2017, 02:52 PM   #1555
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Ohio,

You delight in trumpeting the failures of others from the rooftop 24X7.

Then you hide your sins and failures from us but imagine a forum specially created to discuss your many sins day after day after day after day.

Drake
Nothing to delight in Drake, nothing at all.

Btw, have you been hiding all your sins and failures from us too? Why don't you come clean and tell us who you really are!

Don't you have the greater sin for covering others' sins, damaging those who speak up, and causing people to be continually deceived?

It's not me who has sued other Christians. And that would be repeatedly.

It's not me who has divided churches over the ministry of some man.

It's not me who has slandered men of God for speaking their conscience.

It's not me who has fleeced the saints every way possible.

It's not me who has ... but I'll stop there.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:22 PM   #1556
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Nothing to delight in Drake, nothing at all.

Btw, have you been hiding all your sins and failures from us too? Why don't you come clean and tell us who you really are!

Don't you have the greater sin for covering others' sins, damaging those who speak up, and causing people to be continually deceived?

It's not me who has sued other Christians. And that would be repeatedly.

It's not me who has divided churches over the ministry of some man.

It's not me who has slandered men of God for speaking their conscience.

It's not me who has fleeced the saints every way possible.

It's not me who has ... but I'll stop there.
Ohio, you are starting to sound like the Pharisee rather than the one who says God have mercy on me a sinner. You may be right but your negative speaking can affect you. Don't become the very thing you are against. But I think this dialogue between former and current members of LC is good, it airs frustration, gets it all out there.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:29 PM   #1557
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Ohio, you are starting to sound like the Pharisee rather than the one who says God have mercy on me a sinner. You may be right but your negative speaking can affect you. Don't become the very thing you are against.
Good catch.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:33 PM   #1558
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Reading the posts, those positive for the local churches and LSM publications, answer this one question:
At what point do the elders and co-workers become accountable to the localities they serve?
Terry,

Every elder, co-worker, responsible one., or shepherd who accepts the responsibility of leading the flock in a locality is accountable directly to the Lord and to other responsible ones.

I also happen to believe as members of the one Body we have some accountability to each other.

Why do you ask?

Drake
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:38 PM   #1559
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Sorry, Drake, but Lee and LSM have heartily condemned the whole of Christianity, and by his own words, for close to 70 years. He spared no one. Whether it was contemporary Christian ministers or past men of God before and after the coming of Christ, all were subject to his endless criticisms. Listening to him on a regular basis for almost 30 years, I was given the definite impression that only he and Nee were faultless god-men, ministers of the age, the unique oracles of God, consummate apostles, etc. And just in case we misunderstood Lee's self-implicating aggrandizements from the podium, his surrogates made it exceedingly clear to us who Lee was in private.

I believed it all. For many years I believed everything I was told. I was a loyal foot soldier in the "move of God." I risked every part of my life in order to maintain my allegiance. No one can question my loyalties. I have numerous "brands" to prove them.

Then the Blendeds decided that we in the GLA were their enemies. Threats came. New rules and publication bans came. Quarantines came. Lawsuits came. Training sessions in insubordination came. Churches and saints were badly hurt. I was burdened by the Lord to study what was really happening. Eventually what I uncovered about Lee simply shocked me. His credibility was built on sinking sand like a house of cards held together by lackeys willing to attack and destroy any and all whistle-blowers who spoke their conscience on behalf of God Himself and righteousness.

That said, I still appreciate all the good things I received from Lee. It was he who shot himself in the foot. Like political coverups, his crimes multiplied with his refusal to come clean and repent. That's the difference here. He hurt people and then lied about it. Then he attacked those who refused to believe his lies. The long trail of "persecutors," which we regularly heard of in his meetings and messages, were not "persecutors" at all. They were just men of God crying out for righteousness.

Ohio,

With this argument you justify besmirching Watchman Nee.

Drake
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:41 PM   #1560
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Good catch.
OK, but also be careful not to speak from the tree of knowledge, this statement itself is a little prideful, as if you have won some sort of victory.

I also would like to know a bit more about you. There is a high degree of suspicion and lack of trust towards us because of our affiliation with the LC. They need to know that we are not "LSM lackeys" and are on here on of our own volition.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:42 PM   #1561
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ZNP) "Perhaps, if "falling into the ground to die" means to be removed from contact from all of those you are caring for."


ZNP,

Concerning Brother Nee it's not just being separated.

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Old 02-03-2017, 03:44 PM   #1562
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OK, but also be careful not to speak from the tree of knowledge, this statement itself is a little prideful, as if you have won some sort of victory.

I also would like to know a bit more about you. There is a high degree of suspicion and lack of trust towards us because of our affiliation with the LC. They need to know that we are not "LSM lackeys" and are on here on of our own volition.
Good point!
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:46 PM   #1563
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Drake, once again I'll say it--hopefully now you can consider directly and honestly.

It is my feeling that the LCM venerates Nee and Lee excessively and to a fault. This leads to many offences, such as telling impressionable young people that if they leave the movement they are leaving "God's best." Benson Phillips is on record as saying that if you leave the movement "there is no way for the growth process to continue." That's a quote. I and many here are witness to such claims.

Simply put such claims are of the devil. They and their ilk have wreaked much damage. Of this point you seem in complete denial.

In order for this mindset to be taken down, the idols of Nee and Lee need to come down. The point is not to label them as devils, the point is to label them as fallen men, and nothing more, not divine seers, not MOTAs, just men, like the rest of us, and thus the movement as just another movement.

To that end anything that helps that cause should be welcomed. And you should welcome it. This is not to say that we should embrace lies, just that when a totem is cut down to size we all should rejoice.
There are also those elders/leaders in the LC that say "those in the denominations may be more spiritually advanced and mature than us". Somewhat balances out Benson's statement.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:48 PM   #1564
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Good point!
Sorry bro, when you say good point that's still from the tree of good and evil. Just keep taking the third way. Let's lead by example.
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:12 PM   #1565
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Drake, once again I'll say it--hopefully now you can consider directly and honestly.

It is my feeling that the LCM venerates Nee and Lee excessively and to a fault. This leads to many offences, such as telling impressionable young people that if they leave the movement they are leaving "God's best." Benson Phillips is on record as saying that if you leave the movement "there is no way for the growth process to continue." That's a quote. I and many here are witness to such claims.

Simply put such claims are of the devil. They and their ilk have wreaked much damage. Of this point you seem in complete denial.

In order for this mindset to be taken down, the idols of Nee and Lee need to come down. The point is not to label them as devils, the point is to label them as fallen men, and nothing more, not divine seers, not MOTAs, just men, like the rest of us, and thus the movement as just another movement.

To that end anything that helps that cause should be welcomed. And you should welcome it. This is not to say that we should embrace lies, just that when a totem is cut down to size we all should rejoice.

Igzy,

I consider directly and honestly with each one of you. Here is where Brother Nee's response to the accusation about "living with a woman" is also applicable. Same thing between you and me.

You describe a group that I am not familiar with. I do not venerate Brother Lee or Brother Nee. I do not know any who do. Perhaps over the years maybe there have been a few who did. Yet, I am not a mind reader. Zeal si not veneration. but zeal sometimes comes and often goes. That may be misinterpreted. I have already explained my point of view earlier in this thread. You can read it there if you really want to understand my view.

Now I do not agree with everything every brother says be that Brother Lee, Nee, Phillips, etc. or the brother sitting next to me. Yet, neither am I a trigger finger ready to condemn. Even so, I do not view Benson's comment as of the devil at all. Of course, he feels that way. I'd be surprised if he did not feel that way. He is a leading brother. Did you expect him to say something like "by the way, feel free to go meet with the Catholic Church because idol worship has its merits"? Really.

Sorry Igzy, here is where we will also disagree. Your view of order in the Body in completely unscriptural. God has made arrangements in the Body and there are some who are more gifted than others. All members are not the same in gift or contribution. All may build the Body but not all are the same members. Some more, some less. That is not veneration that is respect for God's arrangement in the Body. The least members, or one talented ones. are crucial to build the Body but their function is not the same.

Finally, what I welcome is an honest and frank conversation. I believe this one with you has been for the most part.

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Old 02-03-2017, 04:50 PM   #1566
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You describe a group that I am not familiar with.
Then you don't know the history of your movement, and seemingly are content to remain ignorant.

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Even so, I do not view Benson's comment as of the devil at all. Of course, he feels that way. I'd be surprised if he did not feel that way. He is a leading brother. Did you expect him to say something like "by the way, feel free to go meet with the Catholic Church because idol worship has its merits"? Really.
This is the fallacy of the appeal the extreme. How did you go from Benson saying no growth can happen outside your movement to saying idol worship is okay. That's a big leap. But actually, now that I think about it, both are equally absurd, and demonic.


Quote:
Your view of order in the Body in completely unscriptural.
So the fact that I see real damage coming from excessive veneration of leaders means I am completely unscriptural in my view of what you call the "order in the Body?" This is more fallacy of the appeal to the extreme.

Let's talk about what the Bible really says about the Body. In no place does the Bible talk about the Body in terms of rank or authority. When the Bible talks about the gifted it talks about them as servants, not as lords. And if the Bible says anything about an "order in the Body" it is where it says to resist over-honoring the "comely" members and to seek to give more honor to the "uncomely" ones. In that case you should resist honoring Nee and Lee so much and seek to honor Lily Hsu more.

There is no mention of any "order in the Body" in any other context. Lee took the allegory of the Body to an extreme and added non-biblical ideas to it. It is your view that is unscriptural. I believe in honoring gifts and genuine leadership. I just don't believe in following blowhards, yes-men and the willfully ignorant. The Bible says try the spirits and the so-called apostles. And that's exactly what I intend to do. Once burned, twice shy.
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:29 PM   #1567
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Yes. We all made choices. But for me those choices were made in a vacuum of information. There was a flavor of spirituality in everything said. It was wrapped in scripture. It was just so much coming so fast that it was not possible to stop and recognize what did not add up.

You take the approach that everyone has all the knowledge they need to make a sound decision. That just isn't always the case.

You're logic would declare that those that were members of a reasonable sane Christian sect in the SF Bay area were aware of everything when they decided to move to South America. And then were fully aware of what was going on when they decided that drinking the Kool-Aid was the right way to go.
OBW, though I disagree with most of what you said in this post you have put thought into it and took the time to document it so I will address your points individually. I might mess up the format but let's see.

It is possible to be tricked. I suppose it is possible to be tricked for 14 years. I just don't think it is credible that someone were tricked for such a long period of time in an Orwellian environment. If I experienced what you describe I would have bolted from the premises. My experience is different than yours. From day one it was heavenly and blissful and now it is heavenly and joyful. There were valleys along the way. Many. I left at one point but returned and no one keeps me here. I stay because that is the choice I make.

Now citing the tragedy in Jonestown was a familiar tactic of the early detractors of the local churches decades ago. It's unfair to correlate. Those folks were really trapped. Drink or be shot. Anyone can walk out at any time. You could have also.

Quote:
We are sure that somewhere along the way that those people bought into something that they didn't really think through clearly. And they weren't just a bunch of mental midgets incapable of seeing through things.

The difference is that after the fact I see something that you clearly have not seen. The LRC is not a safe place. It is not a logical choice in light of the actual scripture. But if there is a garlic room in which up is down and left is right, it is in the LRC. It is the place where demeaning of brothers and sisters in Christ is done in the name of oneness. Where every meeting except the Lord's table is regulated from Anaheim yet you can't see the denomination in it. Where the understanding of the scripture must e checked against what Lee said about it. And were some parts of scripture are essentially excised from the book because Lee said it was "natural" or not "in God's economy."
All scripture is God-breathed. Let's start there. That means that whatever the message is, it is in the Bible for our instruction and enlightenment. There are words from the devil in the Bible. There are words from haters, mockers, unbelievers. There are mistakes recorded in the Bible. And yes, there are words that are natural. I do not excise those from scripture. No one I know does.

There has been criticism oft leveled at the use of HWMW. Well, then that is no different than using shared material in most Sunday School classes. Everyone gets on the same page. I have tried it both ways. I like the structured teaching approach. I also like what Brother Lee and Brother Nee have to say. Why should that bother you?

I'm so happy in this lovely place rings very true for me.

Quote:
You are right that no one is detaining anyone. But when the dogma is that anyone who leaves will be spiritually bereft, wandering in a wasteland, there is a psychological hold. And when the rhetoric about how everyone else's doctrines and practices can only get them to the level of "daughters of Babylon," then you have been psychologically conditioned to refrain from joining with any other Christians.

Once again, all in the name of oneness.

Your leader was a master at the use of logical error to gain followers in spiritual error.
I addressed this in my note to Igzy.


Quote:
Declare that I am just a bitter one who left. That I just want to complain. Actually, I do not. But I cannot fathom just leaving the few that I still know in a place that I believe is so nearly evil in its source when there are so many good Christians and Christian organizations in which to find excellent fellowship and "pasture."

The book that this thread discussed is full of first and second-hand evidence that there is something rotten in the very core of what we call the Local Churches. Their leaders were corrupt in ways that Paul would have had run out of town over. The insistence on "one trumpet" would never have been allowed to disguise just one more "I'm of." This time "of Lee."

You will come back and say that what I have said is not true.

So what? You don't even really consider anything that is said with more detail and support that should make you reconsider. You just dismiss it. Say that we are just bitter. If I didn't know people actually suffering in there, I would never look back.
You made a choice and you are sticking to it. Others are also making a choice to stay but not because they are entrapped or less enlightened than you. What reasons are they giving you for staying? No one is controlling anyone.

Thanks
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:29 PM   #1568
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Ohio,

With this argument you justify besmirching Watchman Nee.

Drake
No, you missed the point ... On purpose!

It simply discredits the fairy tale stories Lee told us about Nee.

When did I besmirch Nee?
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Old 02-03-2017, 05:32 PM   #1569
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Ohio, you are starting to sound like the Pharisee rather than the one who says God have mercy on me a sinner. You may be right but your negative speaking can affect you. Don't become the very thing you are against. But I think this dialogue between former and current members of LC is good, it airs frustration, gets it all out there.
Or, perhaps it sounds a little like the Lord when He rebuked the hypocritical Pharisees with His eight "Woe's."
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:55 PM   #1570
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Then you don't know the history of your movement, and seemingly are content to remain ignorant.


This is the fallacy of the appeal the extreme. How did you go from Benson saying no growth can happen outside your movement to saying idol worship is okay. That's a big leap. But actually, now that I think about it, both are equally absurd, and demonic.



So the fact that I see real damage coming from excessive veneration of leaders means I am completely unscriptural in my view of what you call the "order in the Body?" This is more fallacy of the appeal to the extreme.

Let's talk about what the Bible really says about the Body. In no place does the Bible talk about the Body in terms of rank or authority. When the Bible talks about the gifted it talks about them as servants, not as lords. And if the Bible says anything about an "order in the Body" it is where it says to resist over-honoring the "comely" members and to seek to give more honor to the "uncomely" ones. In that case you should resist honoring Nee and Lee so much and seek to honor Lily Hsu more.

There is no mention of any "order in the Body" in any other context. Lee took the allegory of the Body to an extreme and added non-biblical ideas to it. It is your view that is unscriptural. I believe in honoring gifts and genuine leadership. I just don't believe in following blowhards, yes-men and the willfully ignorant. The Bible says try the spirits and the so-called apostles. And that's exactly what I intend to do. Once burned, twice shy.
Igzy,

I understand and know the history of the local churches including the storms, and the players, the old way, the new way, the issues, and all the shoutin' and hollerin' that came with it. I am very aware, considered all the arguments, been with dear ones on both sides, saw the mistakes, shed the tears. I have examined the false accusations that drove me to my knees on behalf of the Lords's interest and the accusers alike. Considered and realized firsthand the false accusation of veneration, leader worship, and similar descriptors. After all that has transpired, I am at peace to be right here in the local churches. The Lord reveals Himself, speaks to me, keeps me, I have a spiritual family very close to me, there are outreaches to unbelievers, there is the ministry of "each one has" in the Body, there is the building of the Body, and service in the Body according to 1 Corinthians 12. I find enlightenment from His Word, the teaching is orthodox and living and clearly presented in the power of the Spirit. It is convicting, exposing, and reveals my poverty and my shortcomings and my need to repent more and my need for more divine life. I laugh, I cry, I fall, my soul has been restored again and again. According to a burden from the Lord, I may serve Him in any number of ways. I love, care, and will fellowship with believers who do not meet with us sometimes in their places of worship. It has been in short, the most holistic experience of the christian life individually and corporately that I have ever encountered. I am kept by a vision, the truth, and a personal touch from the Lord. I do not think I have even scratched the surface with Him and have been compelled to pursue yet more.

That is the main reason that a negative spirit of condemnation and slander has not persuaded me. Neither from a book or a post or communists or from a brother or an unbeliever.

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Old 02-03-2017, 07:03 PM   #1571
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No, you missed the point ... On purpose!

It simply discredits the fairy tale stories Lee told us about Nee.

When did I besmirch Nee?
Ohio, you just demonstrated it above! You said since Brother Lee said it then it must be false, so you accept the alternative explanation that besmirches Brother Nee.

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Old 02-03-2017, 07:23 PM   #1572
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Ohio, you just demonstrated it above! You said since Brother Lee said it then it must be false, so you accept the alternative explanation that besmirches Brother Nee.

Drake
No, not at all.

We have Witness Lee who made up some ridiculous story which requires us to believe that the church in Shanghai elders were total dunces when they excommunicated Nee in 1942, and we have other eyewitnesses who relate another story.

I no longer believe Lee's stories about Nee, nor do I believe many of the other tales of "persecution" I have heard over the years. When it comes to historical events, Lee is not a credible "witness."

I have left the story with that. Nee was martyred for his faith, and hopefully he did not stumble others.

If the reader wants to know about Watchman Nee, they should rely on credible and objective sources like Kinnear, Roberts, Hsu, Doyle, Kaung, and others. I would not trust Lee's account in Seer ... or other writers who base their books solely on Lee's written and spoken accounts.
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Old 02-03-2017, 07:36 PM   #1573
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That is the main reason that a negative spirit of condemnation and slander has not persuaded me. Neither from a book or a post or communists or from a brother or an unbeliever.
I appreciate your post. But "a negative spirit of condemnation?" How about the spirit of trying to help those who might continue to be hurt by a spirit of spiritual pride and error which has manifestly hurt so many? What you dismiss as "condemnation" is actually the spirit of trying to bring some sense of perspective to the situation. I can tell you long for perspective. Well, it works both ways.

Is there blessing, enjoyment and purpose in the LCs? Of course. You testify to it. God works his perfection among the imperfect. That's to his glory!

But in return you should acknowledge that he is working just as mightily outside the LC. It is not fair for you to acknowledge your own failing then testify to your successes and say that makes up for it all without extending the same grace to others.

I totally understand thinking your way is the best. After all, you wouldn't be there if you didn't think that at some level. But really, isn't that just like rooting for the home team, or for your home town because it's yours and your preference?

God will work in the LCs in some capacity because he is great. The only thing I ask is you not take your claims of "uniqueness" so seriously that you diminish the work he is doing elsewhere. After all, most people who are getting saved, and for that matter most people you will meet in the New Jerusalem will have never even heard of the LCM. Realize that there is really no human way of you knowing that you are "God's best" or anything such thing for sure. God doesn't give us that insight.

In short, just take it down a notch or two. I'm sure you would like me to take the same advice.
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Old 02-04-2017, 05:55 AM   #1574
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Considered and realized firsthand the false accusation of veneration, leader worship, and similar descriptors.
Abuse of authority is the legacy of the LCM. You can split hairs and say it isn't "veneration" or "worship" if you want. That's just avoiding the larger fact. The truth is the LCM abuses authority to control members. Nee did it, Lee did it, Phillips did it, Chu did it, the Blendeds do it. I saw it over and over again in overt and subtle ways. Maybe you have a nice set of local elders. Lucky you. But your limited knowledge does not discredit the larger facts.

Any group that tells its members that they can't go on with God if they leave it is guilty of abuse. No matter how you spin it that is a fact. I suggest you honestly deal with this.

Is the LCM all bad? No. Does it seriously need to deal with the problem of abuse of authority before the Lord? Absolutely.
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:43 AM   #1575
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Abuse of authority is the legacy of the LCM. You can split hairs and say it isn't "veneration" or "worship" if you want. That's just avoiding the larger fact. The truth is the LCM abuses authority to control members. Nee did it, Lee did it, Phillips did it, Chu did it, the Blendeds do it. I saw it over and over again in overt and subtle ways. Maybe you have a nice set of local elders. Lucky you. But your limited knowledge does not discredit the larger facts.

Any group that tells its members that they can't go on with God if they leave it is guilty of abuse. No matter how you spin it that is a fact. I suggest you honestly deal with this.

Is the LCM all bad? No. Does it seriously need to deal with the problem of abuse of authority before the Lord? Absolutely.
Igzy,

Benson did not say what you said he said above. He said "there is no way for the growth process to continue." Perhaps you see them as synonymous because you do not understand the difference. Maybe, here is where your limited and dated time in the local churches serves to your disadvantage. Not going on with God connotes someone has backslidden into a sinful condition. What Benson said in your quote did not say that.

Still, this is not unlike any other group religious or secular that hold convictions about their unique place in the grand scheme of things. News flash from the Baptists:

“As Baptist principles are peculiar to Baptists, every Baptist church, with all its appointments, from preacher to Sunday-school teacher, ought to stand, in the community where it holds forth the word, for something different from any other congregation.”
J. B. Gambrell (b. 1841- d.1921), Baptist pastor, university president, editor, seminary professor, denominational leader/statesman

Then there is this from the largest: Catechism of the Catholic Church -

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 - How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church, which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council [Vatican II] teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

For that matter Igzy, some regard ANY congregation that holds fundamentalist beliefs as authoritarian and to be avoided Evangelical or otherwise.

The net net is this. What Benson said, obviously, wasn't meant for you. Just like the above christian groups beliefs were not meant for you. Almost any group on the planet has a unique mission and they are not meant for you. Though you do not see it in yourself, you also exhibit the same tendencies in your posts in this forum when you insist others who don't accept your beliefs as willfully ignorant or some other derogatory mischaracterization.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for a spirited debate including your strong convictions. Yet if Benson or any of the leading brothers had exhibited a fraction of the pressure to conform to their beliefs as you would have me yours I would have left the local churches a very long time ago..... and still would today.

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Old 02-04-2017, 08:31 AM   #1576
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Ohio, you are starting to sound like the Pharisee rather than the one who says God have mercy on me a sinner. You may be right but your negative speaking can affect you. Don't become the very thing you are against. But I think this dialogue between former and current members of LC is good, it airs frustration, gets it all out there.
This from members of the sect that labels everyone else as mooing cows and the Whore of Babylon or her harlot daughters.

The problem with your defense is that it does not accept that there are righteous complaints to be lodged under Matt 18. But you think that the only "church" that has the right to hear the complaint is yours and since yours is the one standing charged, there is a serious conflict of interest. Those that should sit in judgment simply dismiss the charges because they are the ones being charged.

So let's see . . . . An admitted hierarchy of some kind = reprobate while "#1 is the Father, #2 is the Son, #3 is the Spirit, number #4 is Witness Lee, and we don't know who #5 is yet" is simply accepted as sound teaching from the scripture.

Or the scripture says to reject those who would be teachers but who are just filling their own bellies while the LRC says that we should be forgiving as Christ is to the sinner who made money on the business deal that all of the investor-members lost money on. Paul (the actual apostle) would have run Lee off in a heartbeat. He would not have called him unsaved but rather unworthy to be in any kind of place of spiritual authority, leadership, or teaching.

You dismiss things like Daystar and the sexual misconduct of Lee's son in his so-called "ministry office" with Lee's knowledge and complete lack of action. The forcing of Lee's debts onto the church in Taipei in the 50s. The willful "restoration" of another sexual deviant who could then write the ultimate work on authority that allowed him, and then later Lee, to be excused from any charge of misconduct. And the lies spoken about people like Jon Ingalls and Bill Mallons, among others, to deflect the scrutiny of that evil son that was still to be left in place in ministry.

And you guys think that staying there for 14 years was of my own doing and therefore my fault. I would declare that at least I saw the light and left. You stay and support the continued misdeeds, slander, and wanton mishandling of the scripture on a daily basis by your present and former leaders. It is from your mouth that Christians who believe and do the work of Christ are poor mooing cows while those who declare themselves as one with everyone, but only if they will come to you as the holders of everything "true." And stick your heads in the sand to keep from seeing anything that should suggest that you rethink.

But alas, I fear your place is set. You cannot entertain anything that the leadership calls "negative" because it could damage you. Is your faith that fragile? Is your God that impotent that He cannot protect you from evil and enlighten you with the truth? Must you be on the other side of a high, thick wall so that the notion of something else could never cause you to question. To challenge anything that has been presented to you?

It would appear to me that your defense against the financial and organizational misdeeds of your MOTA are beyond scrutiny. You pass them off as "old." But they are never old if they are not repented of. And repentance must also include repenting to those harmed by those deeds. But there was none, therefore the man must be left outside. Not allowed back in.

But he was never excluded. You have learned well from Nee that only God can deal with the top leader. They are the Deputy Authority and cannot be challenged in a common Matt 18 kind of way. Or dismissed as unfit to teach or lead under Paul's direction. And so you follow the third testament of the LRC. The writings of Nee and Lee. Words that dismiss and twist the actual word of God.


I must, and do declare "God have mercy on me a sinner." Every day. I cannot pretend to be without sin. But the account of the woman caught in adultery does not apply to Lee. That sinner is among the ones whom the scriptures lay heavy charges and exact a requirement of significant penalty for failure. Some of it in the age to come, but some of it in this age.

Lee would have gone to jail if someone had brought Daystar to the attention of the SEC. They invited the LRC membership to invest in a company. But that company was not alone. It was part of a structure of companies. But that company did not exist in the eyes of the government. When it was declare bankrupt, that was an internal claim. It was unable to file for bankruptcy because it didn't exist. It was a fantasy into which people were enticed to put their money. Not a company, but a name only. The company was never registered to exist, or to be dissolved. It was not authorized to take "investments" from anyone.

And many of those who lost their investments — you can declare them to be stupid for not checking things out better — they were never apologized to for the shill that the thing was And the money they lost while the top investors (Lee, his sons, and one or two others) actually made money. They were referred to later by Lee as having "lost their virginity" followed by a chuckle.

That is the man you revere and follow. A common criminal. Bernie Madoff on a smaller scale.
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Old 02-04-2017, 12:03 PM   #1577
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Terry,

Every elder, co-worker, responsible one., or shepherd who accepts the responsibility of leading the flock in a locality is accountable directly to the Lord and to other responsible ones.

I also happen to believe as members of the one Body we have some accountability to each other.

Why do you ask?

Drake
Having had a responsible brother for a relative, I've been told much the same as you have posted. Yet my question remains unanswered. Accountability to brothers and sisters within each locality. In practice I see more accountability to co-workers (Anaheim/Cleveland) than to brothers and sisters within respective localities.
In accepting the responsibility of leading the flock, it's one thing to accept the responsibility, but it's another to labor on the flock. That's the difference whether one is a shepherd or a hireling.
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Old 02-04-2017, 02:49 PM   #1578
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Benson did not say what you said he said above. He said "there is no way for the growth process to continue." Perhaps you see them as synonymous because you do not understand the difference.
I noticed you didn't bother to tell us what the difference is. Pray tell, what is it? To me going on with God means growing. I don't see a difference.

But in fact, it doesn't matter because it's just as absurd and unethical to tell people that if they leave your group there is no way for the growth process to continue. And how the heck would Benson Phillips know this stuff anyway? Is he all-knowing or something?

I'm aware many groups have made stupid claims in the past about their group being the best, or salvation being impossible without them, or being the only overcomers, or the growth process being dependent on them, or something else equally inane. The difference is the vast majority of the members of those groups and even the leaders don't believe that rot anymore because they've been enlightened, even if some obscure, archaic clause in their creed says otherwise. Most of my family is Catholic. None of them believe you need to be a Catholic to be saved.

The LCM is different. The leaders still push this delusional stuff about the growth process only happening there, or whatever else they can use to scare people into staying. Leaving the LCM is as hard for some as leaving any controlling cult. The pressure to stay is much more intense than any group you mentioned.
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:12 PM   #1579
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Igzy,

I explained it well enough. We hold different views and at this point we are repeating ourselves.

Thanks for the dialogue.

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Old 02-04-2017, 03:25 PM   #1580
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Igzy,

I explained it well enough.
I'm afraid you did not. If you were really interested in dialogue this would be the point that you'd try to clarify. But you know in your heart there isn't a real difference and don't want to admit it.

What did Benson mean? I'll tell you. He meant only the Body grows, so you must be in the Body to be a part of growth and the LCM is the only place where the Body really exists. Of course, that is a false presumption as well. But that's what he thinks.

But in the end it was just another unethical way to try to control people.
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:39 PM   #1581
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I'm afraid you did not. If you were really interested in dialogue this would be the point that you'd try to clarify. But you know in your heart there isn't a real difference .
Well okay then.

You said going on with God means growing.

What did I say on this point?
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:51 PM   #1582
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Well okay then.

You said going on with God means growing.

What did I say on this point?
You said there was a difference between growing and going on with God, as if not going on meant being backslidden. But not going on could also simply mean not making progress, not advancing and actually growing.

Benson's statement was that you could not grow as a Christian outside the LCs. Even if he meant something other than what the words plainly stated he should have known how they would be taken by most people. And I'm sure he did. This kind of equivocation is common with demagogues. The word had its intended effect. By the time he or you tap dances about it the audience he intended to influence is long gone.
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Old 02-04-2017, 04:19 PM   #1583
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You said there was a difference between growing and going on with God, as if not going on meant being backslidden. But not going on could also simply mean not making progress, not advancing and actually growing.

Benson's statement was that you could not grow as a Christian outside the LCs. Even if he meant something other than what the words plainly stated he should have known how they would be taken by most people. And I'm sure he did. This kind of equivocation is common with demagogues. The word had its intended effect. By the time he or you tap dances about it the audience he intended to influence is long gone.
IIRC, BP said there was no "sanctification" for those who leave.
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Old 02-04-2017, 04:21 PM   #1584
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You said there was a difference between growing and going on with God, as if not going on meant being backslidden. But not going on could also simply mean not making progress, not advancing and actually growing.

Benson's statement was that you could not grow as a Christian outside the LCs. Even if he meant something other than what the words plainly stated he should have known how it would be taken by most people. And I'm sure he did. This kind of equivocation is common with demagogues. The word had its intended effect. By the time he or you tap dances about it the audience he intended to influence is long gone.
Right. So we disagree on the definition of "not going on with God".

What Benson said is not to control. He really believes it. That is not demagoguery. He was sincere. Really sincere. Have you ever heard Benson speak? He does not say popular crowd pleasing things. It is logical and rational from his point if view.

I know that does not fit the "Igzy LCM Mantra". Sorry about that.

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Old 02-04-2017, 04:38 PM   #1585
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Right. So we disagree on the definition of "not going on with God".

What Benson said is not to control. He really believes it. That is not demagoguery. He was sincere. Really sincere. Have you ever heard Benson speak? He does not say popular crowd pleasing things. It is logical and rational from his point if view.

I know that does not fit the "Igzy LCM Mantra". Sorry about that.

Drake
I know he believes it. In fact, I almost made that point in my last post.

But that's no excuse. He should know better. He should know he cannot know what he claims to know.

That's a lot of nos and knows, I know. But you know what I mean.
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Old 02-04-2017, 04:43 PM   #1586
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I know he believes it. In fact, I almost made that point in my last post.
But that's no excuse. He should know better. He should know he cannot know what he claims to know.
That's a lot of nos and knows, I know. But you know what I mean.
Well then, that is not demagoguery.
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Old 02-04-2017, 05:38 PM   #1587
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Well then, that is not demagoguery.
A sincere fool is a demagogue to those who see him as more than that.
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Old 02-04-2017, 06:26 PM   #1588
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Have you ever heard Benson speak? He does not say popular crowd pleasing things. It is logical and rational from his point if view.
Yes, I've heard Benson speak. I was in Texas in the 70s. I heard him many times. I've spoken to him personally. Benson was a sincere, sweet brother. But he also checked his brain at the door about 45 years ago. Benson decided early on that the best path was to adopt Witness Lee's thoughts in everything and to reject all others. He's a willing and all-out Lee clone. The story is he even pray-read The Economy of God. His mind is on auto-pilot. He thinks if he thinks anything contrary to what Lee thought that is the work of the devil. Sincere? Yes. Dangerous? Absolutely. This is the kind of mind that leads to statements like "the growth process can't continue outside the Recovery."

Sorry, I'll take my leaders who have some kind of fail-safe mechanism. Benson has none. He's flying the bombers to Moscow and he'll be damned if he'll listen to anyone telling him to turn back. Don't even bother to try. Moscow is toast.
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:32 PM   #1589
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A sincere fool is a demagogue to those who see him as more than that.
Igzy,

I advise caution on labeling a brother as a fool.

Don't brazenly cross lines so clearly spelled out in scripture.

Seriously, for your own sake.

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Old 02-05-2017, 01:07 AM   #1590
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Igzy,
I advise caution on labeling a brother as a fool.
Don't brazenly cross lines so clearly spelled out in scripture.
Seriously, for your own sake.
This warning rings a little hollow from a guy who has invested his entire lifetime in a system built on the condemnation of other Christians.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:25 AM   #1591
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This warning rings a little hollow from a guy who has invested his entire lifetime in a system built on the condemnation of other Christians.
Don't take my word for it. Read the Bible.
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Old 02-05-2017, 07:56 AM   #1592
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For once I agree with Drake here.

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-23.htm

http://biblehub.com/romans/14-11.htm

http://biblehub.com/james/4-11.htm

Our Lord Jesus and His apostles did warn us about judging our brothers, and calling them fools.

Discernment is good, judgment goes too far.
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:40 AM   #1593
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Igzy,

I advise caution on labeling a brother as a fool.

Don't brazenly cross lines so clearly spelled out in scripture.

Seriously, for your own sake.

Drake
In my defense I didn't exactly call Benson himself a fool. My point was a foolish person who convinces other people he's not foolish is still deceiving them. Even if he is sincere. But point taken. How about a foolish sincere person? Is that better?
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Old 02-05-2017, 03:33 PM   #1594
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Your post is 99% condemnation and accusation and 1% false humility. That means you are allied with demons not with Christ.
Actually, brother Evan, You are addressing inaccurately OBW who has posited a very weighty matter for leaders and those with a conscience to ponder.

Darby Bible Translation
But we have rejected the hidden things of shame, not walking in deceit, nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God.
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:22 PM   #1595
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Your post is 99% condemnation and accusation and 1% false humility. That means you are allied with demons not with Christ.
Evangelical, isn't it obvious to you that your post is 100% condemnation and accusation?

As I read many of your posts, I wonder if you would have the same comments if you were not hiding behind your computer?

Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

And who is your neighbor?
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:48 PM   #1596
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Actually, brother Evan, You are addressing inaccurately OBW who has posited a very weighty matter for leaders and those with a conscience to ponder.

Darby Bible Translation
But we have rejected the hidden things of shame, not walking in deceit, nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God.
Of things that happened 40 years ago...
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:53 PM   #1597
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Evangelical, isn't it obvious to you that your post is 100% condemnation and accusation?

As I read many of your posts, I wonder if you would have the same comments if you were not hiding behind your computer?

Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’There is no commandment greater than these.”

And who is your neighbor?
That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago. I have already called out one member for making up things that someone said which they did not say.

There are a few points I'd like to make:

1. to forgive means to forget. This is not in the Bible but it means if we still hold onto negative experience from even 40 years ago we have not truly forgiven from the heart. Forgiving from the heart is a way we can obey the second commandment.
2. Our forgiveness is not dependent upon another person's repentance. That is, forgiveness should happen regardless of whether they have repented or not. That is, biblical forgiveness is not contractual or based on right or wrong (the tree of knowledge).
3. Continued negative speaking makes demons happy - Satan is the accuser of the brethren.
4. When God chooses someone as leader, He does not require them to "step down" if they make a mistake. Leaders having to resign or step down is a concept that organizations of man (and denominations) hold. But in God's kingdom leaders who make mistakes hold their position. David, Moses, Noah, Abraham etc all made mistakes, but still maintained their position of leadership.
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:01 PM   #1598
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1. to forgive means to forget. This is not in the Bible but it means if we still hold onto negative experience from even 40 years ago we have not truly forgiven from the heart. Forgiving from the heart is a way we can obey the second commandment.

At least you have acknowledged that you are teaching that which the Bible does NOT.

Just because you REMEMBER experiences from 40 years ago does not mean you have not forgiven. I have learned from my LC experiences which were decidedly negative with LC leadership. I have forgiven their trespasses, as they asked for, but I will NEVER be able to forget, because that made me who I am today. What happened to me is an ever present warning not to make the same mistakes I made 40 years ago. You, sir, do not know the hearts of men. There's a good reason "forgive and forget" is not in the Bible...perhaps it's that fallen man does not have that capacity.

2. Our forgiveness is not dependent upon another person's repentance. That is, forgiveness should happen regardless of whether they have repented or not. That is, biblical forgiveness is not contractual or based on right or wrong (the tree of knowledge).

Yeah...we've read all those self-help books too, but thanks for your patronage.

3. Continued negative speaking makes demons happy - Satan is the accuser of the brethren.

Is the truth "negative" or "positive"? Neither. It's simply "the truth". WL, et al, have hidden behind this "negative speaking" fallacy to manipulate the membership while they hide behind the truth of their sinful behavior. The phrase "negative speaking" used as a weapon against the saints who tell the truth makes the demons very happy.

The LC has aligned itself with the accuser of the brethren against those who tell the truth.

4. When God chooses someone as leader, He does not require them to "step down" if they make a mistake. Leaders having to resign or step down is a concept that organizations of man (and denominations) hold. But in God's kingdom leaders who make mistakes hold their position. David, Moses, Noah, Abraham etc all made mistakes, but still maintained their position of leadership.

So the sins of leaders is OK with God? It's clearly OK with you.
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:16 PM   #1599
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That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago. I have already called out one member for making up things that someone said which they did not say.
Excuse me, Evangelical. You and Drake are the only ones who have reason to fabricate history. Hundreds of posters have given testimony to their sad and painful experiences in the LC's, and so they left. You, however, have stayed, trading your conscience for loyalty to Lee.

I left after 30 active years serving in the LC's specifically because:
1. Reading Nee's book TNCCL with the other serving ones opened my eyes to see how far LSM had veered off course.

2. The pending quarantines and lawsuits against GLA LC's.

3. The accumulated systemic abuses in a loveless program.
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:22 PM   #1600
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Just because you REMEMBER experiences from 40 years ago does not mean you have not forgiven. I have learned from my LC experiences which were decidedly negative with LC leadership. I have forgiven their trespasses, as they asked for, but I will NEVER be able to forget, because that made me who I am today. What happened to me is an ever present warning not to make the same mistakes I made 40 years ago. You, sir, do not know the hearts of men. There's a good reason "forgive and forget" is not in the Bible...perhaps it's that fallen man does not have that capacity.
Thanks Nell, great comments.

Lee was able to manipulate numerous saints with his demands to "forgive and forget." Yet there is no record of him ever apologizing specifically to the saints for all the damages he and his sons had caused.

As someone once said, "you know it is abuse when the victims are blamed for all their pain."
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:26 PM   #1601
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That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago. I have already called out one member for making up things that someone said which they did not say.

There are a few points I'd like to make:

1. to forgive means to forget. This is not in the Bible but it means if we still hold onto negative experience from even 40 years ago we have not truly forgiven from the heart. Forgiving from the heart is a way we can obey the second commandment.
2. Our forgiveness is not dependent upon another person's repentance. That is, forgiveness should happen regardless of whether they have repented or not. That is, biblical forgiveness is not contractual or based on right or wrong (the tree of knowledge).
3. Continued negative speaking makes demons happy - Satan is the accuser of the brethren.
4. When God chooses someone as leader, He does not require them to "step down" if they make a mistake. Leaders having to resign or step down is a concept that organizations of man (and denominations) hold. But in God's kingdom leaders who make mistakes hold their position. David, Moses, Noah, Abraham etc all made mistakes, but still maintained their position of leadership.
This is so hypocritical.

Titus Chu was told to "step down" for wanting clean sheets, allowing drums in the Young People's meetings, and publishing his books.
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Old 02-06-2017, 12:31 PM   #1602
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Is the truth "negative" or "positive"? Neither. It's simply "the truth". WL, et al, have hidden behind this "negative speaking" fallacy to manipulate the membership while they hide behind the truth of their sinful behavior. The phrase "negative speaking" used as a weapon against the saints who tell the truth makes the demons very happy.
The negative speaking tactic is something I've seen not just in the church, but in current events. What by liberals last week in Berkeley is no different than what you'd find in the local churches. That is a desire to shut down those with contrasting points of view (aka Negative Speaking).
So if a speaker or writer is presenting the truth, and the truth contradicts groupthink, the truth must be suppressed as negative speaking.
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:14 PM   #1603
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Another hypocrisy is playing the "tree of knowledge" card.

Have you ever seen or heard of a "ministry" that could more accurately epitomize the "tree of knowledge" than that of Witess Lee? It's all about "knowledge". Knowledge originally spoken by Lee, reduced to print by the family business. Packaged and re-packaged for forced feeding to the faithful.

Anyone can read the Bible, but to eat from the "ministree" you have to sell out and join a group to have it explained to you. In the absence of understanding, just keep reading in the most recent iteration then quote until you turn blue...then start all over. This is the "tree of knowledge".

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Old 02-06-2017, 04:57 PM   #1604
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Thanks Nell, great comments.

Lee was able to manipulate numerous saints with his demands to "forgive and forget." Yet there is no record of him ever apologizing specifically to the saints for all the damages he and his sons had caused.

As someone once said, "you know it is abuse when the victims are blamed for all their pain."
Just like there is no record for Lee being called the 4th person of the Trinity.
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Old 02-06-2017, 05:04 PM   #1605
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1. to forgive means to forget. This is not in the Bible but it means if we still hold onto negative experience from even 40 years ago we have not truly forgiven from the heart. Forgiving from the heart is a way we can obey the second commandment....
Remembering is one thing. Repeating them over and over again continually, 40 years later, is something else.

Do not think you are helping anyone on this site. To the contrary, your words are causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:29 PM   #1606
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Remembering is one thing. Repeating them over and over again continually, 40 years later, is something else.

Do not think you are helping anyone on this site. To the contrary, your words are causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
Lee and the Blendeds have repeated their condemnations on the whole of Christianity for much longer than 40 years. Have you informed them about how this is "something else, causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge?"

No? I didn't think so.

Evangelical, you love to lecture others, yet you don't live by those lectures yourself. The Lord had a word for this, starts with an "h" and ends with a "y."
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:35 PM   #1607
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Just like there is no record for Lee being called the 4th person of the Trinity.
Apparently you cannot read.

It was quoted profusely on another thread, but you didn't like what you read, so you twisted the meaning. Why don't you ask those who were there?

Also, why don't you read the Introductions forum. Many stories are there.
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:57 PM   #1608
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Remembering is one thing. Repeating them over and over again continually, 40 years later, is something else.

Do not think you are helping anyone on this site. To the contrary, your words are causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge.
So yet again you lose track of and/or change the subject. We were talking about forgive and forget. I'll summarize for you: I remember what happened to me. I forgave. I'm not the one "repeating". For self preservation, I ended my association with LC leadership. If anyone repeats its abuse of the LC faithful, its the LC leadership.

What? I think I'm helping folks on this site. Did you read what Ohio just said? Did you read what Terry said. No? Regardless. You don't tell me what to think.

So...lets stop talking about "negativity" and talk about "truth" as I suggested and you ignored.

Here's what Watchman Nee said about truth:
Absolute loyalty to the Truth is a matter that must have priority in the life of every Christian worker. It is possible, and indeed it not infrequently happens, that a worker modifies the Truth because he is influenced by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires. The truth is absolute, and it demands undeviating loyalty of all men under all circumstances. All we possess we can sacrifice if need be, but the Truth we dare not sacrifice. We must never seek to bend it to our purpose, but must always bow to it.
The Normal Christian Worker, Watchman Nee

There was nothing about "negative speaking".

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Old 02-06-2017, 07:11 PM   #1609
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Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
His mind is on auto-pilot.
Same can be said for many. You check your conscience, reason, etc at the door. Don't question what you're hearing from LSM/DCP. Whatever is spoken elicits the automated Amen response. Whether it's something promoting the ministry, the latest building project, or the latest Christian church being ridiculed. I've been there. I've heard it.
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:06 PM   #1610
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Lee and the Blendeds have repeated their condemnations on the whole of Christianity for much longer than 40 years. Have you informed them about how this is "something else, causing negativity and harm because it is the fruit of the tree of knowledge?"

No? I didn't think so.

Evangelical, you love to lecture others, yet you don't live by those lectures yourself. The Lord had a word for this, starts with an "h" and ends with a "y."
holy? heavenly? happy?
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Old 02-06-2017, 08:10 PM   #1611
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Originally Posted by Nell View Post
So yet again you lose track of and/or change the subject. We were talking about forgive and forget. I'll summarize for you: I remember what happened to me. I forgave. I'm not the one "repeating". For self preservation, I ended my association with LC leadership. If anyone repeats its abuse of the LC faithful, its the LC leadership.

What? I think I'm helping folks on this site. Did you read what Ohio just said? Did you read what Terry said. No? Regardless. You don't tell me what to think.

So...lets stop talking about "negativity" and talk about "truth" as I suggested and you ignored.

Here's what Watchman Nee said about truth:
Absolute loyalty to the Truth is a matter that must have priority in the life of every Christian worker. It is possible, and indeed it not infrequently happens, that a worker modifies the Truth because he is influenced by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires. The truth is absolute, and it demands undeviating loyalty of all men under all circumstances. All we possess we can sacrifice if need be, but the Truth we dare not sacrifice. We must never seek to bend it to our purpose, but must always bow to it.
The Normal Christian Worker, Watchman Nee

There was nothing about "negative speaking".

Nell
Stating truths about sins is not something that will set a person free. It may not have occurred to you but "the truth" is not the truth concerning the negative things (sin, evil etc) but the positive things. You are talking about the wrong kind of truth, the negative truth. Even though Jesus's disciples were sinners, and he was a friend of sinners. Jesus did not engage in continued negative speaking about a person's sin. This is what I mean by negative speaking.The one who engages in speaking the truth in a negative way is the devil - that is why he is called the accuser. Now the accusations may be 100% truthful, but it is still negative speaking.
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Old 02-07-2017, 09:28 AM   #1612
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Stating truths about sins is not something that will set a person free. It may not have occurred to you but "the truth" is not the truth concerning the negative things (sin, evil etc) but the positive things. You are talking about the wrong kind of truth, the negative truth. Even though Jesus's disciples were sinners, and he was a friend of sinners. Jesus did not engage in continued negative speaking about a person's sin. This is what I mean by negative speaking.The one who engages in speaking the truth in a negative way is the devil - that is why he is called the accuser. Now the accusations may be 100% truthful, but it is still negative speaking.
Who told you this? Witness Lee? Did you make it up? Cite your case. Scripture? Nee clearly disagrees with you.

You do not tell me what to think, and neither do you put words in my mouth. The "wrong kind of truth"? Really? I stated clearly that there is no "negative" truth or "positive" truth...simply "truth".

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Devil didn't "speak the truth in a negative way". That he spoke the truth at all by quoting Scripture...he was still a liar...the father of lies and is incapable of speaking truth.

Matt. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus came to save his people from their sins. He exposed the sins of people continually, not as a weapon, but for their/our salvation. He is a sinner's friend because He told the truth. It is truly God's mercy that the sins of men are exposed. Otherwise we would be left in the strong delusion of the Devil. We would be left believing that truth is relative to the "influence[d] by men, or by circumstances, or by his own desires." -WNee

2 Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


I pray that we all become lovers of truth.

This is so far off topic...my fault...I apologize.

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Old 02-07-2017, 09:54 AM   #1613
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Stating truths about sins is not something that will set a person free. It may not have occurred to you but "the truth" is not the truth concerning the negative things (sin, evil etc) but the positive things. You are talking about the wrong kind of truth, the negative truth. Even though Jesus's disciples were sinners, and he was a friend of sinners. Jesus did not engage in continued negative speaking about a person's sin. This is what I mean by negative speaking.The one who engages in speaking the truth in a negative way is the devil - that is why he is called the accuser. Now the accusations may be 100% truthful, but it is still negative speaking.
When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he quoted scripture and spoke the truth in a "positive" way -- "since you are the Son of God ..."

And so with us. Many of Satan's temptations to us are not accusations at all, but rather "pleasantries" that oppose righteousness.

Perhaps many of the "accusations" which LSM has long associated with the devil, are actually God's speaking to them from their conscience.
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Old 02-07-2017, 12:32 PM   #1614
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Perhaps many of the "accusations" which LSM has long associated with the devil, are actually God's speaking to them from their conscience.
Such is the case with turmoils that resulted in quarantines. Brothers reacting because their conscience is bothered by events and behaviors occurring in the recovery. In turn being quarantined for reacting and responding. Anyone with a sound conscience it's normal to respond. We're created with a mind, emotion, and will. We're not created to where we can turn off our conscience like a light switch.
On the other side of the coin, I can understand why some brothers are able to suppress their conscience. Being financially supported full time by localities and/or LSM, there's the anxiety of "what if I express my concerns? How will I provide my household?" At that point one must be "one with the brothers".
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Old 02-09-2017, 05:07 PM   #1615
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago. I have already called out one member for making up things that someone said which they did not say.
Evangelical, I hope that you see that other people on this forum have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors. I "met the church" in 2015 and left in 2016. I actually knew nothing of the church's checkered past when I left. It seems that you may have, once again, created your own little reality to create another strawman argument.

Another thought - did you consider that the poster was also issuing a warning, rather than a condemnation? I believe that we should warn people of the LSM, including its history. I am troubled that many college students will begin to follow the LSM denomination without understanding the history, practices, theology, etc...

Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Old 02-11-2017, 11:05 AM   #1616
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That's not a condemnation that's a warning. I and Drake are possibly the only two on here that have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors or sayings and things that did not happen. That is because we hold no resentment against the local churches or Witness Lee, of things that happened 40 years ago.
Whether it happened 40 years, 25 years or oven 10 years ago, any non-political correct report on the events is considered a fabrication and those brothers who were witnesses to the events are regarded as liars.
Certainly no one on this forum has any reason to fabricate history. Rather due to events in LC history caused different ones to leave. Instead of cursing these ones when they leave, why not bless them? That would certainly diffuse any strong reactions one way or another. One verse I tend to refer to that's appropriate in principle to LC history is Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness;
Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
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Old 02-12-2017, 03:16 AM   #1617
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Evangelical, I hope that you see that other people on this forum have no reason to fabricate history or spread rumors. I "met the church" in 2015 and left in 2016. I actually knew nothing of the church's checkered past when I left. It seems that you may have, once again, created your own little reality to create another strawman argument.

Another thought - did you consider that the poster was also issuing a warning, rather than a condemnation? I believe that we should warn people of the LSM, including its history. I am troubled that many college students will begin to follow the LSM denomination without understanding the history, practices, theology, etc...

Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
My own reality? This is the reality as I see it -
A person who was not witness to the events has claimed certain things were said.
When asked to provide evidence they have offered no evidence to substantiate their claim except one written account.
The written account they offered as evidence is found to not support their claim at all - it is clearly taken out of context, having nothing to do whatsoever with the doctrine of the Trinity.
That person is therefore engaging in history fabrication - they have not even admitted a healthy degree of uncertainty about the events they were not even witness to, or to the possibility that they could be wrong.
Despite all this that person expects us to accept their statements as fact and cries foul when challenged that their version of events may not match the reality.
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Old 02-12-2017, 05:46 AM   #1618
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

Journey to the past
Updated: FEBRUARY 12, 2017 — 3:01 AM EST

Jennifer Lin is a former Inquirer staff writer and author of "Shanghai Faithful: Betrayal and Forgiveness in a Chinese Christian Family" (to be published by Rowman & Littlefield on Feb. 17), from which the following is excerpted

I heard the voice of my grandfather, the Rev. Lin Pu-chi, only once. It was a phone call to Shanghai in the spring of 1973. Months earlier, President Richard Nixon had made his historic trip to China. For the first time since fleeing China in 1949, my father, Dr. Paul M. Lin, was allowed to telephone his family, who still lived in his childhood home in the old International Settlement.

I never spoke to my grandmother, and her brother - a famous Christian preacher with the unusual name of Watchman Nee - was a complete stranger to me.

But all three would dominate my thoughts for many years. It started from the moment of my first trip to China in 1979, when my father took me and two of my sisters to Shanghai to meet the family he left behind.

The first moments of the reunion were all sweetness and smiles. In the airport reception area, under the gaze of an avuncular Chairman Mao smiling upon us from a giant mural, my father melted into the embrace of his older sister. A tinier version of him, she had an easy smile and a girlish demeanor for a woman in her 50s. Best for us, she spoke English. Like my father, she had graduated from the medical school of St. John's University, run by American missionaries, and recently retired as an obstetrician.

At the airport, our entourage split up into two borrowed vans that picked their way down a bike-choked road. Cousins who had only been faces in photographs came to life with names and personalities. To make it easier for us, they let us refer to them by their Western names. Maozhi was Aunt Martha. Her daughters Tianlin and Zhongling were Terri and Julia. Rice paddies and squat brick buildings gave way to tree-shaded avenues with storefronts that looked as if they belonged in Paris of the 1930s. What few cars were on the road were antiques from decades ago. The streetscape, too, flashed by in black and white, with everyone wearing white short-sleeved shirts and dark pants.

The family lived in House 19 on Lane 170 on Jiaozhou Road. It was a narrow, three-story brick house, sandwiched among identical dwellings along a common walkway. In another era, British neighbors would have called it a "terraced house." Entering through a rear door off a damp alley, we climbed a winding staircase to my uncle's third-story bedroom, which doubled as the family's catchall living space. It had a musty smell.

I felt as if I had entered a time capsule. In the stairwell was an old-style wall phone with a separate mouthpiece and receiver. Next to an armchair with a lace antimacassar was a mirrored wood armoire from the 1940s. I noticed that the tiny tiled bathroom with a proper Western, sit-down toilet was also the kitchen, equipped with a single gas burner that straddled the width of a claw-footed, cast-iron tub. There was no refrigerator. Food was stored in a cabinet in the tight stairwell.

Everyone jammed inside the main room. Neighbors who heard what was going on stood in the doorway, straining to glimpse foreigners. My father held court for hours, filling the gap of 30 years and answering a battery of questions.

He was still talking when I retreated to my aunt's room a floor below and climbed into her bed, exhausted from our trip, but happy to see him home.

That first morning, blaring patriotic music from a loudspeaker mounted on a pole in the alley woke me. The energetic voice of a young woman roused the neighborhood. I didn't understand a word, but it was obvious this was our wake-up call, and I got dressed.

Outside, bike bells thrummed like cicadas. A stream of cyclists already choked Jiaozhou Road. In the distance, the baritone moan of ships on the Huangpu River joined the morning chorus. Standing on the balcony off the bedroom, I could peer into the lives of families on the other side of the alleyway, or longtang. A woman plopped dumplings into a wok of sizzling oil. An older man in a white undershirt stood on his balcony swinging his arms like a windmill for exercise.

That was when I heard my father coming down the steps and turned to see him approaching me on the balcony. His words that morning would stay with me forever: "My God, this is so depressing."

He explained. After my sisters and I had turned in for the night, he stayed up talking to his Uncle George, the younger brother of Watchman Nee. George asked him in a hushed voice, "Do you have any idea what happened to us?"

The uncle proceeded to tell him about the madness of the Cultural Revolution, when good people committed sadistic acts to curry favor with rebels and to protect themselves. My grandmother, his older sister, had it the worst. She was brutalized again and again for not disowning her brother Watchman Nee, who had been branded an enemy of the people. Many times, her tormentors dragged her from her home, forced her to kneel on the pavement and pressured her to denounce him.

The constant humiliation and physical torture, this uncle told my father, had hastened her death. But the family's hardships began long before the Cultural Revolution began in 1966. Did my father know that Lin Pu-chi had been pushed out of his church work in the 1950s? Did he know that Watchman Nee had been sentenced to prison in 1956 after a trial, public shaming in the press, and the arrest of his "counterrevolutionary clique"?

The answer, sadly, was that my father had been clueless. Of course, we had read about the destructive Cultural Revolution, a decade of anarchy and struggle, when friends betrayed friends and children turned against their parents. And we knew that Watchman Nee had been sentenced in 1956 as a counterrevolutionary. But what we didn't understand - what I didn't sense until that trip - was how the political drama of the era had played out within the walls of this very house. We had been assured time and again by my grandfather that everything was fine. "Do not worry," he wrote to us. "All's well." Now as I thought back to the faces that surrounded us the previous night, I wondered: Who were the victims? Who the collaborators?

During our two-week stay, my father tried to draw more details from his siblings but failed at every turn. No one wanted to talk; George alone revealed the truth, but even then only fragments. Fear kept their voices in a tight vise. They had been targeted once before; no one could assure them it wouldn't happen again.

My father didn't press it. Instead, he vacillated between enjoying the here and now and brooding over disturbing scenes from the past that played out in his mind. It was as if an uninvited guest kept showing up as we went sightseeing from the Bund in Shanghai to the Forbidden City in Beijing. One moment, we would be sitting around a big table, laughing, enjoying a banquet, and listening to stories from long ago. The next moment, my father would drift off, anguished over thoughts of his mother in pain and his inability to help her.

When we returned to Philadelphia, my father seemed to take what he learned, place it in a box, and put it somewhere far away. Maybe it was his temperament and training as a brain surgeon: Assess, intervene, cure. Next patient.

There was no way he could undo the past, so he would not dwell on it. He moved on. My reaction was different. Maybe it had something to do with the way I was wired. As a 20-year-old college senior, I was emerging as the reporter I wanted to be, and I couldn't let go. I had read the last page of a mystery and needed to read all the preceding chapters. I wanted to know:

What happened to them and why?

For more information, visit

www.shanghaifaithful.com. @SGHFaithful
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Old 07-29-2018, 10:03 PM   #1619
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Nee and Samson were far apart.

For years I sought to find any leader/ teacher / preacher in the world who spoke the truth as Yahweh reveals in His Word. I found that when Yahweh reveals the truth , when He opens the understanding of Scripture, to anyone in the world, He is Faithful and True all the time - He Reveals the Truth without change, He gives His Understanding to every Ekklesia ("little child") who is born again by His Will from heaven, and that this is rare, perhaps very rare -both (1) the truth is rare, and (2) knowing that Yahweh reveals the same truth, the same understanding of Scripture to everyone He reveals it to.

I gave surprised exceedingly great thanksgiving to Yahweh in Jesus for revealing the truth to those He chooses, to me as He Promises in His Word as Written in the Bible, and to Nee - whose books (mostly by CFP) (none by Living Stream, btw) were lessons of truth from Scripture Revealed by Yahweh to Nee - such sheer and pure truth in graciousness and extravagant fullness in detail and over all generally. Many other leaders/ teachers/ preachers/ evangelists for years had failed to pass the test of Scripture - they failed miserably , actually, obviously not knowing Jesus and vitally wrong in some or many things when checked against Scripture as Yahweh had revealed....

Miracle of miracles! From a yard sale purchase (probably), one small book at first (later over 20 books), JOY OF JOYOUS JOYS ! Nee learned from Jesus and 'printed' it! / taught and it was put in CFP's books/ .... the SAME revelation Yahweh grants to everyone abiding in jesus, who loves His Word and abides in Him, and in whom His Word abides ! HALLELUYAH!

The point? Very few other leaders/ preachers/ evangelists/ teachers have ever heard from Yahweh or Jesus, in Spirit or in any way at all. At least they do not preach, teach, or print the truth purely as Yahweh reveals the truth and His Understanding of Scripture.... Nee did. He is tested and proven more than any other I've even heard of in the last 100 or more years. In some 20 to 44 (I don't remember) books I read voraciously and cover to cover, amazed at the accuracy and fullness and clarity in line with all Yahweh Revealed to Nee, there were , at the time, perhaps 3 things that seemed even questionable (and could have been due to translation to english issues, or other shortcomings in the communication) ....By the way, every time I read something from LSP, I could not read more than a few paragraphs , thanks to Yahweh in Jesus - the 'spirit' behind their publications was so awful (even before I knew it was a book from them) ...

This testimony is true and hopefully appropriate for this time and day, and may it be helpful to others Yahweh reveals the truth to or has revealed the truth to already, and to those who are seeking the truth - know for sure and realize that Yahweh grants understanding of His Word without any contradiction from one member of His body to another, even if around the world from one another.
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:59 PM   #1620
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Default Re: My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr.

It's been so a long time since I last posted.

Recently, I read the book. I felt those stories are quite plausible. If the book had been published earlier especially during or before I lived in Shanghai (I left the city 10 years ago to be back to my hometown in South Korea), I'd have checked the details as much as I can during my residence in Shanghai.

BTW, very coincidentally, one of Watchman Nee's family members will be visiting my hometown from Hong Kong in Oct. The organizing brother invited me for dinner with him, but I'm not sure if I should accept that invitation. Even if I go, seems like I will not ask him if or not the book is correct...

Either way, any Korean brother in this forum?
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