What's wrong with the LC?

[aron]

Originally Posted by seeking1

With so many people passing through here looking for guidance, I thought it would be nice to have some sort of official statement or position from this site on what exactly is wrong with the teachings of Lee. Granted, the whole site is kind of dedicated to "what's wrong with Lee", but it would be nice to not have to wade through all the "pet peeves" and digressions that happen on threads. Just something short and concise, maybe even a numbered list. Put on a tab or something where no one can comment...My two cents!

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So, getting back to your original inquiry about having some sort of short, concise list "on what exactly is wrong with the teachings of Lee", I would open it up to all the members to help us out. Maybe a number of the members could make their own list and we could then try to incorporate the most common issues into a concise list. I certainly wouldn't be opposed to such an effort.

With the above quotes in mind, I'd like to propose a "Top Ten" list, a la the departed "Letterman Show". Then, we vote on the lists. What are the top issues? Which issues are secondary, and caused by the big problems. Put another way, what red flags first hit you when you began to meet there, which you had to ignore in order to go on?

My list:

1. Corruption. Witness Lee tried to enrich his family members with schemes like the Daystar which went belly up and cost a lot of people their savings. Daystar wasn't the only scheme that fleeced the flock. Men's suits, cheap chairs; "Let's go... Linko!!" -- anyone remember that slogan? Additionally, WL put his "unspiritual" (his words) son Philip in charge of the Living Stream Ministry office, which he said was a "business", and when that son was caught repeatedly molesting the female workers, WL charged the concerned brothers with treason, that they were forming a secret conspiracy to rebel against his leadership.

2. Subjectivity. The danger of the charismatic movement is that you trust your feelings. You scream something loud enough, long enough, in a mob of screaming and jumping people, and whatever you feel is then "the Holy Spirit". So this group tries to whip you up into hysteria -- "exercise your spirit, brother!!" -- and then they can tell you the moon is made of green cheese and you bawl out, "Aayyyyeemaaahhhhnnn!!!!" In this environment it's easy to ignore what the Bible says, or selectively read it to say most anything. Suddenly the Bible is untrustworthy as a guide, because it's "dead letters"; instead you trust the "sense of life". And you prefer the "flavor" of the LSM and not the "flavor" of any other ministry. Subjective, much? Sounds like a bunch of six-year olds arguing over ice cream.

3. Hypocrisy. We get to judge others, but nobody can judge us. The LC specializes in pointing out the errors of "Christianity", but WL taught that when God sees the church, He sees no fault. So don't dare criticize the church (but please do point out the faults of everyone else).

4. Elevating "special persons" above the flock. Witness Lee was the spiritual giant in the LC. Says who? Says WL, the giant. So if Lee sinned we had to "cover drunken Noah". And if he said that the Bible wasn't as good as his theology, then we picked his theology over the Bible. See the Life-Study (or footnotes) of the Psalms for Exhibit A.

Here's another example: suppose in Acts 8:34 the Ethiopian eunuch had asked, "Tell me, was he (Isaiah) writing concerning himself or someone else?", and Philip replied, "Don't bother with that - it isn't according to God's economy. We all know that nobody can keep their mouth shut." Suppose that the "apostle", instead of pointing us to Christ, simply said that the prophet was being natural, and fallen? We ended up there, when we elevated a man and his ministry above the word of God.

5. Control. When my local church elder wanted to give a conference, the Maximum Brothers in Anaheim nixed it. "Just re-speak the latest conference", they said. In the LC you don't do anything without "fellowship." Otherwise you might be "independent", or even - gasp - "rebellious"! So don't think, don't consider; just do what MaxBro says. One time at a meeting, I heard WL ask, "Whom of you did I control!?" Silence. Nobody dared to speak.
They were all too cowed. There was essentially no freedom to follow the Spirit.

6. Contempt for "works". Peter told the gentile listeners that Jesus the Nazarene "went around doing good" for the 3 1/2 years that the disciples were with Him (Acts 10:38; see also e.g. Matt 9:35, 4:23 etc). In the LC we were told to forget works; they were "dead". Forget the poor, the sick, the distressed, and the confused. Just "masticate the processed and consummated Triune God" (i.e. chant the verses that Headquarters gives us each day) and "build up the Body" (i.e. try to recruit people into the Living Stream Ministry orbit).

7. Pride. We were constantly told about the "rich ministry" of WL. God would probably reply, "You say that you're rich but you're really poor. You say that you need nothing, and have arrived at the High Peak of theology, but you've forgotten the basics of humility and love. Go and buy from Me gold refined in fire. Get some eye salve. Get a clean robe."

[TLFisher]

I would add two more:

8. Abuse by means the practice of deputy authority teaching:
As Igzy stated on another thread which I see the LC definition of deputy authority in practice:
"Another problem with the LCM is it has no built-in means of self-correction. In fact, it has just the opposite. It has a built-in means of NOT correcting. There is no accountability for the leadership. They have the power, that's it. Trying to correct them leads to be ostracized, or worse. "

Post #137 http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3149

9. Contempt of spiritual gifts: How often have I heard in conferences the issue of spiritual gifts being marginalized. Yet in Paul's first epistle to Corinth, he says the following in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11:

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

I was in the LC for 10 years. The reason I left was their superior attitude towards other Christians. I know too many people who love Jesus in too many places/denominations to dump or mock them. I purposely visit other churches now to worship with them. I may not agree with all of a church's theology, but I look for Jesus. Let Him sort it all out when He comes. "...let the wheat and the tares grow together. Do not pull out the tares because you may damage the wheat..." The superior attitude by the LC could better be called arrogance. It took me 8 years after leaving before I could enter a 'denomination" without feeling bad about it.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The reason I left was their superior attitude towards other Christians....I may not agree with all of a church's theology, but I look for Jesus.

Amen to this!! Although there are certainly very serious issues with the teachings and practices in the Local Church movement, (and we do address these on the forum) it is the haughty, superior attitude that really separates them from the Body of Christ. It separates them from receiving all the healthy and positive things in the rest of the Body, and it separates the rest of the Body from some of the positive things in the LC movement, such as the appreciation for the function of all believers, hospitality, and numerous other positive things.

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[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I was in the LC for 10 years. The reason I left was their superior attitude towards other Christians. I know too many people who love Jesus in too many places/denominations to dump or mock them. I purposely visit other churches now to worship with them. I may not agree with all of a church's theology, but I look for Jesus. Let Him sort it all out when He comes. "...let the wheat and the tares grow together. Do not pull out the tares because you may damage the wheat..." The superior attitude by the LC could better be called arrogance. It took me 8 years after leaving before I could enter a 'denomination" without feeling bad about it.

Me too bro Unreg. 10 yrs for me too. And I'm still having problems with disconnecting ... sadly.

But I didn't leave because of their superior attitude towards other Christians. Over the years I got use to arguing with brothers over that attitude.

It was the authoritative system that got to me. Hit me smack-dab in the face, in fact. I've told the story way too many times.

If you're interested join up and hit me in Private Messaging ...

Thanks for poppin' in ...

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

It was the authoritative system that got to me. Hit me smack-dab in the face, in fact. I've told the story way too many times.

The authoritative system is also what caused me to become disillusioned. I can think of many examples of situations where I saw the abuse of authority. Most of the time, the authority figures would rely on groupthink as a tool so that it wouldn't be so blatantly obvious that they were exerting authority.

I remember this one time when some brothers leading a young people's conference were insisting that no one wear jeans in meetings. I made a comment about it to some other brothers that I thought it was a bit ridiculous and even punitive so to speak. Well these brothers who I said that to jumped on me. How dare I contradict the leading brothers. So I asked the brothers if Jesus had to wear slacks around. I was answered with silence.

What I began to realize through that experience and other similar situations was that there was not necessarily an authority overtly controlling everyone, but there was a system in which only certain people could give a final word and it was unacceptable for anyone to contest it. Even trying to simply discuss or debate something that you don't agree to could result in being viewed suspiciously. The authority figure didn't have to exert direct control over anyone. 99.9% of members were already willing to go along and defend their leader(s) to the extreme.

[love4truth]

I find that Witness Lee's stance on "worldly entertainment" tends towards legalism. Over and over he states in his teachings that worldly Christians go to movies, ball games, and enjoy other forms of entertainment. He even blasts the young women for liking to shop. He says it is a form of entertainment to them, and should be avoided.

I know that the Bible says that we are not to love the world, but surely that means the world and its trappings should not be our obsession. I guarantee you that Lee himself had SOMETHING he engaged in for recreation and to relax. He did not pray all the time, or write his copious material all the time. He talks about eating Christ a lot, as though, if we spend all our time, every moment, in some sort of activity centering on Christ, we are living the right way. And those who do not are reprobate. We are to have only the church life, and nothing else. Yet no one can live that way.

God gave us this world, and there are many wonderful and beautiful things in it that we can enjoy. He even gifted people to create works of art and beautiful music. When He forbade Adam and Eve to eat the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, He said they could eat of every other tree in the Garden. All those trees are types of the things God created in our world for us to enjoy.

It is a far greater sin to carry around a guilty conscience over things you allow yourself to do. "Whatever is not of faith is sin." We are to have a pure, innocent heart about things and enjoy the good things in life without their getting a grip on us, either positively or negatively.

We should avoid the impure, because the Bible tells us not to touch the unclean thing. But not all enjoyable activities are unclean. Even Jesus went to a wedding to enjoy Himself, and weddings in those days were events of entertainment, where they even served wine! They lasted several days, and there was much dancing and frivolity.

Lee was so opposed to activities that he saw as worldly, but he pushed young people to get good educations so they could make a lot of money. Everyone knows what a "good" education is in a secular institution today. Listening to and learning from atheistic professors, often as not. Higher education is just fine to Lee; but better not participate in anything that is "fun."

I believe if you sit under teaching that constantly lays a guilt trip on you, you are allowing that teaching to give you a "sin conscience," i.e put you under condemnation. Read Romans Chapters 7 and 14.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by love4truth

I find that Witness Lee's stance on "worldly entertainment" tends towards legalism. Over and over he states in his teachings that worldly Christians go to movies, ball games, and enjoy other forms of entertainment. He even blasts the young women for liking to shop. He says it is a form of entertainment to them, and should be avoided.

I know that the Bible says that we are not to love the world, but surely that means the world and its trappings should not be our obsession. I guarantee you that Lee himself had SOMETHING he engaged in for recreation and to relax. He did not pray all the time, or write his copious material all the time. He talks about eating Christ a lot, as though, if we spend all our time, every moment, in some sort of activity centering on Christ, we are living the right way. And those who do not are reprobate. We are to have only the church life, and nothing else. Yet no one can live that way.

The legalism on entertainment has scared many away, but that's probably for the better. With those in the LC, they usually either get so caught up in the legalism that they can't ever have any fun, or they are pushed to live a double life, where who they are in meetings is completely different from who they are in real life.

I believe that one of Lee's hobbies was gardening if I'm not mistaken. So maybe there was a bit of a double standard. Something that I was thinking about is that of all the leading brothers/elders I know, I can't really think of anyone having a hobby or something they do for fun that I've noticed. Maybe once in a while they will do things like hiking or camping, but it's limited to those infrequent activities that no one would ever associate with worldliness.

[awareness]

Hey l4t ... welcome ...

Originally Posted by love4truth

I guarantee you that Lee himself had SOMETHING he engaged in for recreation and to relax.

You might take a look at Nee's "Do All to the Glory of God." I remember reading a book that must have been a section in this book, called "Recreation." Nee was very balanced and rational in this writing. I think it was Lee that introduced feverish fanaticism against entertainment (while he failed to throttle his sons from "enjoying" married sisters).

Originally Posted by l4t

God gave us this world, and there are many wonderful and beautiful things in it that we can enjoy. He even gifted people to create works of art and beautiful music. When He forbade Adam and Eve to eat the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, He said they could eat of every other tree in the Garden. All those trees are types of the things God created in our world for us to enjoy.

It is said there are two books by God: The Bible, written by men, and Nature, written by God's very own hands.

How could it be forbidden to enjoy the works of Gods' very own hands? We should be paying attention to both books.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by love4truth

I find that Witness Lee's stance on "worldly entertainment" tends towards legalism. Over and over he states in his teachings that worldly Christians go to movies, ball games, and enjoy other forms of entertainment. He even blasts the young women for liking to shop. He says it is a form of entertainment to them, and should be avoided.

Welcome, love4truth, and well said.

C.S. Lewis said he once asked a young boy what he thought God was like. The boy answered, "I suppose he's the type of person who looks around for people who are having fun and tries to stop them."

That was definitely Witness Lee's "God."

But what a sad way for a child to think about God! Kids instinctively know life is to be enjoyed. That isn't immaturity. Jesus said you have to become like a little child to enter the kingdom. The ability to just enjoy being alive is a characteristic of children, and kingdom people.

No wonder so many young people give up on church.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The legalism on entertainment has scared many away, but that's probably for the better. With those in the LC, they usually either get so caught up in the legalism that they can't ever have any fun, or they are pushed to live a double life, where who they are in meetings is completely different from who they are in real life.

I believe that one of Lee's hobbies was gardening if I'm not mistaken. So maybe there was a bit of a double standard. Something that I was thinking about is that of all the leading brothers/elders I know, I can't really think of anyone having a hobby or something they do for fun that I've noticed. Maybe once in a while they will do things like hiking or camping, but it's limited to those infrequent activities that no one would ever associate with worldliness.

I think who the brother is makes a difference. If there's a physically imposing brother who likes to do fun things with his family, the brothers will have second thoughts of saying anything related to him or his family having fun whether it's going to Disneyland or going to movies.
From my experience certain activities where considered harmless and not so worldly. I was one who enjoyed reading a jigsaw puzzles. Even in the brother's house I would work on jigsaw puzzles handed down from another couple in the locality.
My serving brother from 30 years ago is now an elder I understand. When I knew him he was one who enjoyed hiking and I would be on some of those hikes. Another leading brother from a locality I was close to, from being around him it was watching football, baseball, or basketball. I sense many brothers are like this in a sense; a need to live a double life or as I say mask their soul-life while in the meeting.