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Old 01-02-2018, 07:45 AM   #1
ZNPaaneah
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Default Climate Change

There has been some discussion on this topic under Politics, but I think this warrants its own thread so that we can dig a little deeper into the evidence and arguments.

this is a general definition from Wikipedia. I read through it and it seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Climate change is a change in the statistical distribution of weather patterns when that change lasts for an extended period of time (i.e., decades to millions of years). Climate change may refer to a change in average weather conditions, or in the time variation of weather within the context of longer-term average conditions. Climate change is caused by factors such as biotic processes, variations in solar radiation received by Earth, plate tectonics, and volcanic eruptions. Certain human activities have been identified as primary causes of ongoing climate change, often referred to as global warming.[1]

Scientists actively work to understand past and future climate by using observations and theoretical models. A climate record—extending deep into the Earth's past—has been assembled, and continues to be built up, based on geological evidence from borehole temperature profiles, cores removed from deep accumulations of ice, floral and faunal records, glacial and periglacial processes, stable-isotope and other analyses of sediment layers, and records of past sea levels. More recent data are provided by the instrumental record. General circulation models, based on the physical sciences, are often used in theoretical approaches to match past climate data, make future projections, and link causes and effects in climate change.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:49 AM   #2
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Default Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
T
Climate change is a change in the statistical distribution of weather patterns when that change lasts for an extended period of time (i.e., decades to millions of years). Climate change may refer to a change in average weather conditions, or in the time variation of weather within the context of longer-term average conditions. Climate change is caused by factors such as biotic processes, variations in solar radiation received by Earth, plate tectonics, and volcanic eruptions. Certain human activities have been identified as primary causes of ongoing climate change, often referred to as global warming.[1]

Scientists actively work to understand past and future climate by using observations and theoretical models. A climate record—extending deep into the Earth's past—has been assembled, and continues to be built up, based on geological evidence from borehole temperature profiles, cores removed from deep accumulations of ice, floral and faunal records, glacial and periglacial processes, stable-isotope and other analyses of sediment layers, and records of past sea levels. More recent data are provided by the instrumental record. General circulation models, based on the physical sciences, are often used in theoretical approaches to match past climate data, make future projections, and link causes and effects in climate change.
Please note the part I have highlighted in red. We are not talking about a single cold weather day in a single part of the globe. We are talking about a statistical change over the entire globe for a period of at least 10 years and could be as much as a million years.

Climate change does not change the fact that the Earth's axis of rotation is tilted 23.5 degrees. As a result when the sun sets at the North Pole it is 6 months before it rises again. Likewise when the sun rises at the North pole it is 6 months before it sets. Obviously if the night is 6 months long it is going to get cold.

However, if the average temperature rises by 1 degree F, or 2 degrees F then that will have broad consequences for many species, both plants and animals.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:53 AM   #3
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Default Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
There has been some discussion on this topic under Politics, but I think this warrants its own thread so that we can dig a little deeper into the evidence and arguments.

this is a general definition from Wikipedia. I read through it and it seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Climate change is a change in the statistical distribution of weather patterns when that change lasts for an extended period of time (i.e., decades to millions of years). Climate change may refer to a change in average weather conditions, or in the time variation of weather within the context of longer-term average conditions. Climate change is caused by factors such as biotic processes, variations in solar radiation received by Earth, plate tectonics, and volcanic eruptions. Certain human activities have been identified as primary causes of ongoing climate change, often referred to as global warming.[1]

Scientists actively work to understand past and future climate by using observations and theoretical models. A climate record—extending deep into the Earth's past—has been assembled, and continues to be built up, based on geological evidence from borehole temperature profiles, cores removed from deep accumulations of ice, floral and faunal records, glacial and periglacial processes, stable-isotope and other analyses of sediment layers, and records of past sea levels. More recent data are provided by the instrumental record. General circulation models, based on the physical sciences, are often used in theoretical approaches to match past climate data, make future projections, and link causes and effects in climate change.
I have highlighted this part about all the natural causes that can cause climate change because this has been used in the previous thread to throw confusion. We are not ignorant of the fact that the climate changes due to natural causes, nor are we ignorant of the fact that all of these potential causes can make the science of predicting human influence more complicated.

But the discussion is primarily about human influences that we have control over. For example, your income is the result of many factors. If you have job, then income from that, if you have investments they will also factor in. If a distant uncle dies and leaves you a million dollars that will factor in. If you get sick, have a car accident, etc. All of these can factor in. Even so, most of us would focus on the the things we control when considering our income.
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Old 01-02-2018, 09:21 AM   #4
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Default Re: Climate Change

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
There has been some discussion on this topic under Politics, but I think this warrants its own thread so that we can dig a little deeper into the evidence and arguments.

this is a general definition from Wikipedia. I read through it and it seems perfectly acceptable to me.

Climate change is a change in the statistical distribution of weather patterns when that change lasts for an extended period of time (i.e., decades to millions of years). Climate change may refer to a change in average weather conditions, or in the time variation of weather within the context of longer-term average conditions. Climate change is caused by factors such as biotic processes, variations in solar radiation received by Earth, plate tectonics, and volcanic eruptions. Certain human activities have been identified as primary causes of ongoing climate change, often referred to as global warming.[1]

Scientists actively work to understand past and future climate by using observations and theoretical models. A climate record—extending deep into the Earth's past—has been assembled, and continues to be built up, based on geological evidence from borehole temperature profiles, cores removed from deep accumulations of ice, floral and faunal records, glacial and periglacial processes, stable-isotope and other analyses of sediment layers, and records of past sea levels. More recent data are provided by the instrumental record. General circulation models, based on the physical sciences, are often used in theoretical approaches to match past climate data, make future projections, and link causes and effects in climate change.
I agree with what you posted in blue, but not in red. Yes the climate is changing, but I don't agree that man is causing climate change. That's about as true as the endless claim that all rich people are Republicans.

The industrial revolution did not start in the 1990's, and the earth was far dirtier back in the middle of the 20th century. Yet, certain segments of the "scientific" community tried to convince us then that "evil" man with all of his filthy pollution would plunge the planet into another ICE AGE. Maybe you are too young to remember those days. I remember them.

Did the industrial revolution cause the first ICE AGE, and cause the dinosaurs to become extinct? No, but everyone believed that it would happen. That became one of the driving forces to export heavy manufacturing, like steel mills, overseas. If you look at climate data from the 60's, you will see the trend to lower temperatures. Now the reverse has happened, and all the political fearmongers have spooked the world again.

It's a new age religion, and Trump is not a convert. So you hate him.
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Old 01-02-2018, 10:10 AM   #5
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I agree with what you posted in blue, but not in red. Yes the climate is changing, but I don't agree that man is causing climate change. That's about as true as the endless claim that all rich people are Republicans.

The industrial revolution did not start in the 1990's, and the earth was far dirtier back in the middle of the 20th century. Yet, certain segments of the "scientific" community tried to convince us then that "evil" man with all of his filthy pollution would plunge the planet into another ICE AGE. Maybe you are too young to remember those days. I remember them.

Did the industrial revolution cause the first ICE AGE, and cause the dinosaurs to become extinct? No, but everyone believed that it would happen. That became one of the driving forces to export heavy manufacturing, like steel mills, overseas. If you look at climate data from the 60's, you will see the trend to lower temperatures. Now the reverse has happened, and all the political fearmongers have spooked the world again.

It's a new age religion, and Trump is not a convert. So you hate him.
London was far dirtier. Not Africa, Asia, South America or even North America.

There were far fewer people using far less fossil fuel. Gasoline engine didn't even take off until around WW1. Cities didn't become electrified until around that time as well. Refer to this graph https://www.treehugger.com/fossil-fu...rs-graphs.html

World Fossil fuel consumption took off after WWII.

Second, the effect is cumulative. So each year we are adding to the total ppm in the atmosphere.

Third, a slight increase in CO2 can promote plant growth. It is very likely that the CO2 added to the atmosphere in the 1880s was balanced by additional plant growth.

Fourth, increase in population doesn't just increase the amount of emissions, it also decreases the amount of plants as we chop them down for parking lots, roads, cities, houses, etc. So while emissions are increasing, the amount of plants pulling carbon out of the atmosphere is decreasing. This is exacerbated when they burn down tropical rainforest and replace it with grasslands and cows.

Fifth the recent industrialization of the third world has accelerated the process even further. (When I went to Taiwan in 1987 you rode bicycles and they were so crowded it was hard to squeeze a bicycle into a parking place. By 1995 no one rode bicycles and they were all replaced with scooters and cars.

Sixth, once you pass a certain point the ocean become acidified and kills off the creatures that have shells made of calcium carbonate. We are seeing this process now. As they die lots of life including plants die as well. 70% of our plants are in the ocean, decrease them and you decrease the amount of carbon being pulled out of the air.

Seventh, as the ice melts (36 cubic miles in Antarctica, 36 cubic miles in Greenland, virtually every glacier, and the Arctic sea ice) the ocean or ground that remains absorbs much more of the suns energy. Ice and snow reflects sunlight back out to space whereas the ocean and land absorb it and it becomes heat.

So then we know, for a fact that the CO2 levels in the Earth's atmosphere have increased dramatically since the 1950s and are now at a level we have not seen since the last major extinction. During this time the average temperature of the Earth has risen and directly correlates to the increase in CO2. During this time the ice has begun to melt rapidly and this in turn is causing more heat energy from the sun to become heat. And, every year we add to the totals.
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Old 01-02-2018, 04:17 PM   #6
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12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

At the Great White Throne men are judged based on what is written in "books" and these books are very clearly not the book of life. Being judged according to the book of life is a separate judgment.

You can interpret books to refer to 2 books other than the book of life (at the very least) or you can interpret this to refer to the innumerable number of books mentioned by John when trying to write down all that Jesus did, much less all that all men have done. Perhaps these books are documentaries, perhaps they are chronicles of senate hearings, maybe they are newspaper clippings. It is very vague as to what these books are other than they are plural and they are not the book of life. However, what is not vague is what these books contain, the basis on which the men are judged, i.e. their works.

If we cross reference this with the Lord's word in Matthew that men will be judged from every word that they speak, and then in another place that "with what judgement you have judged you shall be judged" then I think it is clear that it could be a quote of what the man said. It could be "fake news" that they authored. We have seen this time and time again. The same PR firm that advised Tobacco executives how to spin the truth concerning cigarettes being addictive, they also advised oil executives how to spin the truth concerning climate change.

Because of the lawsuits we now have about 80 million pages of documents from the tobacco companies. These represent their internal memos, studies, conversations. It is a book and it tells a very coherent story. It shows that in the 1950s all the tobacco companies knew that tobacco caused cancer. Then there is another book, this is the public testimony, advertisements, PR. This also tells a very coherent story, but quite different from the secret book. This one has them saying "it is not known if tobacco causes cancer" in 1984. This one has them all testifying before congress that they did not think cigarettes were addictive when the secret book tells us that not only did they know that it was addictive but they hired large groups of scientists to manipulate the addictiveness to make it more and more addictive. I am pretty sure that at the great white throne these ones will be judged by these two books.

One of the strategies they use is to "identify who is a potential threat to you" and then "neutralize them". For the tobacco company that meant blaming furniture for fires started by cigarettes. This resulted in legislation requiring "flame retardants" (toxic cancer causing chemicals put in your furniture, rugs, carpets, mattresses, etc). The oil industry has used the same strategy and even employed the same PR firm.

In the 1990s the strategy of the oil companies was “let’s not rush to judgement” and “there is no consensus among scientists”. Naomi Oreskes article “The Scientific consensus on Climate Change” in Science magazine was a study designed to answer that question. She looked at every paper published from 1992 to 2002 that used the key word phrase “Global climate change”. There were 928 papers. Of these 928 how many disagreed with the premise that “most of the observed warming is due to increased greenhouse gases?” The answer was none. All 928 papers agreed.

You want to talk about fake news, the presentation in the news that there was a "debate" among scientists over this was "fake news".
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:08 AM   #7
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I think it is important that we understand how the industrial revolution started, this way we can more easily see what word of the Lord was violated.

I grew up in NY. I made very many wood fires, and my father had us split logs that we later used in our fireplace. We didn't live in NYC, but in Westchester. In NYC no one used wood. Mostly they had boilers or perhaps coal. Same with our school. In upstate NY wood was everywhere and many people made a living selling wood. You could see the signs for firewood as you drove by. But then in the 70s I lived in England, in Norfolk. There everyone used coal. It was easy to see why. You have a small bucket of coal (compared to our much larger pile of wood) by a small iron stove similar to a Franklin stove. In the morning you add a couple of chunks of coal and open up the vent. At night you tamp down the vent. Compared to wood it was cleaner, neater, and much easier. Also even though I travelled the countryside in England, Wales and Scotland you never saw anyone burning wood. It turns out this is true of all land that is crowded. As towns grow coal is a much better source for fires than wood.

But coal mines have major problems. Often you will have a shaft leading down to the coal mine that is 800 feet or more straight down. This requires an elevator which initially was powered by horses. Flooding was also a major issue and so they needed pumps to pump water out also powered by horses. Then moving the coal was another issue. Imagine being underground and having to drag hundreds of pounds of coal behind you for a quarter of mile back to the elevator. Very quickly they discovered the advantage of a railway at reducing the friction. They even built railways from the mines down to the port. A brakeman would control the car on the way down, filled with coal, on the way back horses would pull it back up. Also, fires and explosions were a major problem so they needed to develop lights that would not cause explosions. They also needed government regulation since the owners of the mine didn't really care that miners got killed without them. Now if you are at a coal mine there will be lots of "garbage", coal that is too small to sell. The coal is essentially free to burn whereas providing grain for the horses to do all the work is not. That is why the first steam engine invented was designed to pump water out of a coal mine.

So let's look at Israel. A small strip of land with very limited forests and wood. By law they are forbidden to import wood from other countries and instead are told they have "a rich land". At the time of Solomon they have a large, well organized, centralized government. Solomon is also famous for his mines. No doubt his mines had all the same issues that mines in England had. If Solomon had obeyed God's command to not go to Egypt for horses and Lebanon for Cedars he would have had no choice but come up with the same creative solutions that the English came up with.

We know that pumps had been invented, we know that rails were used to move heavy carts, and we have found a working steam engine that is thousands of years old (toy).

Therefore it is my conclusion that at the time of Solomon we were on the brink of the industrial revolution. However, his many wives turned him aside.

Ps 81:8 Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee:
O Israel, if thou wouldest hearken unto me!
9 There shall no strange god be in thee;
Neither shalt thou worship any foreign god.
10 I am Jehovah thy God,
Who brought thee up out of the land of Egypt:
Open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
11 But my people hearkened not to my voice;
And Israel would none of me.
12 So I let them go after the stubbornness of their heart,
That they might walk in their own counsels.
13 Oh that my people would hearken unto me,
That Israel would walk in my ways!
14 I would soon subdue their enemies,
And turn my hand against their adversaries.
15 The haters of Jehovah should [d]submit themselves unto him:
But their time should endure for ever.
16 He would feed them also with the [e]finest of the wheat;
And with honey out of the rock would I satisfy thee.


Just imagine what would happen if Israel had discovered the industrial revolution hundreds of years before the Babylonians rode into visit. They would have found cars, trains, airplanes, high rise buildings made of concrete and steel. The entire world would have been able to leap frog the dirty part of the industrial revolution.
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Old 01-04-2018, 04:40 AM   #8
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Ohio: if you would check literature from that time you will see that scientists were already majority predicting global warming(70s).

A few folks presented the idea of global cooling, and the press ate it up...but this idea was never taken very seriously as the evidence was weak. Wikipedia has a whole article on global cooling. In general the media does a very poor job of communication of science, and this could explain a lot of issues we see today

So red herring
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:05 AM   #9
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Ohio: if you would check literature from that time you will see that scientists were already majority predicting global warming(70s).

A few folks presented the idea of global cooling, and the press ate it up...but this idea was never taken very seriously as the evidence was weak. Wikipedia has a whole article on global cooling. In general the media does a very poor job of communication of science, and this could explain a lot of issues we see today

So red herring
I definitely agree with you.

It's all a red herring.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:59 AM   #10
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Ohio: if you would check literature from that time you will see that scientists were already majority predicting global warming(70s).

A few folks presented the idea of global cooling, and the press ate it up...but this idea was never taken very seriously as the evidence was weak. Wikipedia has a whole article on global cooling. In general the media does a very poor job of communication of science, and this could explain a lot of issues we see today

So red herring
This is a very interesting point that is greatly misunderstood (see Hollywood movies). So let's clarify it. The presentation I have seen from legitimate scientists is not "global" cooling but rather regional cooling sometimes referred to as a "mini ice age".

Here is how this works and it is fascinating. The oceans have global currents that move warm water from the equator up the poles, at the poles the water cools and sinks and then returns to the equator at the bottom of the ocean. It acts like a giant conveyor belt. It moves heat and nutrients. It is critical to the Earth's climate and for life in the ocean.

However, fresh water is less dense than salt water, so even if it is cold it won't sink. (there is a great experiment you could do to prove this to yourself. Get two containers, fill both half full with equal amounts of water and then freeze. Once you have these two large ice cubes fill the other half of the container. In one use fresh water at room temperature. In the other use salt water at room temperature. Then watch (you might want to use time lapse photography). The ice in the fresh water will melt faster than the one in salt water. Why? The salt water is more dense so the ice cube floats up to the top and as it melts it is surrounded with the ice water that can't sink due to convection. In the other container the cold water sinks and the ice stays next to the warmer water and melts quicker.)

So the thought is as the ice is melting rapidly the surface of the ocean in the poles will be ice cold but fresh water that can't sink. This will shut down these currents. As a result we can see the heat in the ocean concentrated in the tropics while the poles are covered with cold, fresh water. If this happens we can measure the decrease in the ocean currents (which we are seeing) and we would expect Europe to get a lot more snow in the winter (which we are also seeing). The only way that this could have a bigger affect than just regional is if it does cause a mini ice age in Europe. Snow and ice reflects more sunlight. I have not seen anyone who is predicting that this effect to the ocean currents will result in global cooling.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:40 AM   #11
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Default Re: Climate Change --Recap of 2017

We had 15 climate events of a billion dollars or more:

Western Wildfires†
Summer-Fall 2017
2017-06-01 2017-09-30 Numerous wildfires across many western and northwestern states burn over 8.4 million acres and hundreds of homes. 2017 already exceeds the 10-year annual average of 5.9 million acres. Montana in particular has been affected by wildfires scortching over 1 million acres so far. These wildfire conditions are enhanced by the extreme drought taking place in several states. $2.0 CI 8
North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana Drought
Spring-Fall 2017
2017-03-01 2017-09-30 Extreme drought causes extensive impacts to agriculture in North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana. Field crops including wheat were severely damaged and the lack of feed for cattle forced ranchers to sell off livestock. This drought has also contributed to the increased potential for severe wildfires. $2.5 CI 0
Hurricane Maria†
September 2017
2017-09-19 2017-09-21 Category 4 hurricane made landfall in southeast Puerto Rico after striking the U.S. Virgin Island of St. Croix. Maria's high winds caused widespread devastation to Puerto Rico's transportation, agriculture, communication and energy infrastructure. Extreme rainfall up to 37 inches caused widespread flooding and mudslides across the island. The interruption to commerce and standard living conditions will be sustained for a long period, as much of Puerto Rico's infrastructure is rebuilt. Maria tied Hurricane Wilma (2005) for the most rapid intensification, strengthening from tropical depression to a category 5 storm in 54 hours. Maria's landfall at Category 4 strength gives the U.S. a record three Category 4+ landfalls this year (Maria, Harvey, and Irma). TBD -- estimated to be $45 to 95 billion 38
Hurricane Irma
September 2017
2017-09-06 2017-09-12 Category 4 hurricane made landfall at Cudjoe Key, Florida after devastating the U.S. Virgin Islands - St John and St Thomas - as a category 5 storm. The Florida Keys were heavily impacted, as 25% of buildings were destroyed while 65% were significantly damaged. Severe wind and storm surge damage also occurred along the coasts of Florida and South Carolina. Jacksonville, FL and Charleston, SC received near-historic levels of storm surge causing significant coastal flooding. Irma maintained a maximum sustained wind of 185 mph for 37 hours, the longest in the satellite era. Irma also was a category 5 storm for longer than all other Atlantic hurricanes except Ivan in 2004. TBD -- estimated to be $100 billion 95
Hurricane Harvey
August 2017
2017-08-25 2017-08-31 Category 4 hurricane made landfall near Rockport, Texas causing widespread damage. Harvey's devastation was most pronounced due to the large region of extreme rainfall producing historic flooding across Houston and surrounding areas. More than 30 inches of rainfall fell on 6.9 million people, while 1.25 million experienced over 45 inches and 11,000 had over 50 inches, based on 7-day rainfall totals ending August 31. This historic U.S. rainfall caused massive flooding that displaced over 30,000 people and damaged or destroyed over 200,000 homes and businesses. TBD -- estimated to be $180 billion 84

As a reference the average cost from hurricane damage per year in the US prior to last year was $26 billion.

Midwest Severe Weather
June 2017
2017-06-27 2017-06-29 Severe hail and high wind damage impacting Nebraska, Illinois and Iowa. More than one dozen tornadoes touched down across parts of Iowa, in addition to other storm damage. $1.2 CI 0
Minnesota Hail Storm and Upper Midwest Severe Weather
June 2017
2017-06-09 2017-06-16 Severe hail and high wind damage impacting numerous states including MN, WI, WY, TX, IA, IL, KS, MO, NE, NY, PA, VA. The Minneapolis metro area in particular was damaged from large, destructive hail impacting many buildings and vehicles. This damage is comparable to the May 15, 1998 Minnesota hail storm that was also very costly. $2.5 CI 0
Colorado Hail Storm and Central Severe Weather
May 2017
2017-05-08 2017-05-11 Hail storm and wind damage impacting several states including CO, OK, TX, NM, MO. The most costly impacts were in the Denver metro region where baseball-sized hail caused the most expensive hail storm in Colorado history, with insured losses exceeding 1.5 billion. $2.2 CI 0
Missouri and Arkansas Flooding and Central Severe Weather
May 2017
2017-04-25 2017-05-07 A period of heavy rainfall up to 15 inches over a multi-state region in the Midwest caused historic levels of flooding along many rivers. The flooding was most severe in Missouri, Arkansas and southern Illinois where levees were breached and towns were flooded. There was widespread damage to homes, businesses, infrastructure and agriculture. Severe storms also caused additional impacts during the flooding event across a number of central and southern states. $1.7 CI 20
South/ Southeast Severe Weather
March 2017
2017-03-26 2017-03-28 Large hail and high winds in Texas north of the Dallas metro region caused widespread damage to structures and vehicles. Severe storms also caused damage across several other states (OK, TN, KY, MS, AL) due to the combination of high winds, hail and tornadoes. $2.1 CI 0
Southeast Freeze
March 2017
2017-03-14 2017-03-16 Severe freeze heavily damaged fruit crops across several southeastern states (SC, GA, NC, TN, AL, MS, FL, KY, VA). Mid-March freezes are not climatologically unusual in the Southeast, however many crops were blooming 3+ weeks early due to unusually warm temperatures during the preceding weeks. Damage was most severe in Georgia and South Carolina. Crops most impacted include peaches, blueberries, strawberries and apples, among others. $1.0 CI 0
Midwest Tornado Outbreak†
March 2017
2017-03-06 2017-03-08 Tornado outbreak and wind damage across many Midwestern states (AR, IA, IL, KS, MI, MN, MO, NE, NY, OH, WI). Missouri and Illinois were impacted by numerous tornadoes while Michigan and New York were affected by destructive, straight-line winds following the storm system. Nearly one million customers lost power in Michigan alone due to sustained high winds, which affected several states from Illinois to New York. $2.1 CI 2
Central/ Southeast Tornado Outbreak
March 2017
2017-02-28 2017-03-01 Over 70 tornadoes developed during a widespread outbreak across many central and southern states causing significant damage. There was also widespread straight-line wind and hail damage. This was the second largest tornado outbreak to occur early in 2017. $1.8 CI 6
California Flooding
February 2017
2017-02-08 2017-02-22 Heavy, persistent rainfall across northern and central California created substantial property and infrastructure damage from flooding, landslides and erosion. Notable impacts include severe damage to the Oroville Dam spillway, which caused a multi-day evacuation of 188,000 residents downstream. Excessive rainfall also caused flood damage in the city of San Jose, as Coyote Creek overflowed its banks and inundated neighborhoods forcing 14,000 residents to evacuate. $1.5 CI 5
Southern Tornado Outbreak and Western Storms†
January 2017
2017-01-20 2017-01-22 High wind damage occurred across southern California near San Diego followed by 79 confirmed tornadoes during an outbreak across many southern states including AL, FL, GA, LA, MS, SC and TX. This was the 3rd most tornadoes to occur in a single outbreak during a winter month (Dec.-Feb.) for records going back to 1950. $1.1
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Old 01-06-2018, 05:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Climate Change --Recap of 2017

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We had 15 climate events of a billion dollars or more:
How much will the "Big One," the long predicted CA earthquake cost us?

Perhaps CA will be a separate country by then. One can only hope.
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:41 AM   #13
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How much will the "Big One," the long predicted CA earthquake cost us?

Perhaps CA will be a separate country by then. One can only hope.
Good idea. California is an economic powerhouse and hi tech center. CA contributes more to the American economy than any other state...$2.44 trillion in 2015.
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:47 AM   #14
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The cost to the US this year was over $350 billion dollars in insured losses for climate disasters. However, this will show up as job increases. Insured losses are translated into jobs for contractors, etc.

Perhaps this is what Trump really meant when he said he wanted more of that "good old global warming". It is the single biggest job creator for 2017.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:41 PM   #15
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Since 1950, the number of coastal ecosystems that scientists say are “suffocating” has grown tenfold. The problem has grown four times over in the open ocean, which is generally a more stable and resilient environment. Scientists say ocean oxygen content has declined 2 percent over the past 50 years. The trend, scientists say, is another consequence of global warming that threatens to disrupt food chains, ...

What was it that the "comic book Revelation" said? The oceans and rivers and lakes would be turned to blood?
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:49 AM   #16
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It was 5 degrees here yesterday and 86 degrees in the Dominican Republic.

Tomorrow it will be 40 degrees here.

The equator is heating up because the heat cannot move north. This means we will have hurricanes in January (what we saw) and because of sea level rise those on the coast can get flooded with water that then freezes (this is what happened to Boston encasing cars in ice two feet deep).

So if it is 5 degrees in NY and 86 in DR, what is the average? 45 degrees in January -- that is an example of what is meant by Climate change.

People have the mistaken idea that 1 degree warmer will be nicer, it isn't going to be even, it could be 20 degrees warmer at the equator and 18 degrees colder in NY.
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:05 PM   #17
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Thousands of flying foxes died in an Australian heatwave so severe it has melted tarmac. The animals fell from the trees as they were boiled alive in temperatures exceeding 104 degrees Fahrenheit in Campbelltown in New South Wales. Animal welfare volunteers battled to save the lives of the hundreds of babies and some adults in distress but the death toll is believed to be in the thousands.
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:55 PM   #18
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It was 5 degrees here yesterday and 86 degrees in the Dominican Republic.

Tomorrow it will be 40 degrees here.

The equator is heating up because the heat cannot move north. This means we will have hurricanes in January (what we saw) and because of sea level rise those on the coast can get flooded with water that then freezes (this is what happened to Boston encasing cars in ice two feet deep).

So if it is 5 degrees in NY and 86 in DR, what is the average? 45 degrees in January -- that is an example of what is meant by Climate change.

People have the mistaken idea that 1 degree warmer will be nicer, it isn't going to be even, it could be 20 degrees warmer at the equator and 18 degrees colder in NY.
I'll just move to where it's 1 degree warmer then.
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Old 01-09-2018, 05:52 AM   #19
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I'll just move to where it's 1 degree warmer then.
It is going to be 54 degrees on Friday in NY, a week ago it was 5, the average is about 30 degrees which for mid January is warm. Today it is 40 degrees, a few days ago it was 18 degrees, again the average is 29 degrees, once again for mid January that is warm.

If you want to move to NY go ahead, we are one of the most at risk cities for floods, sea level rise, the new version of hurricanes, and the spread of tropical diseases.
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Old 01-10-2018, 05:58 AM   #20
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Report: 485 Scientific Papers Published in 2017 Undermine Supposed ‘Consensus’ on Climate Change
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Old 01-10-2018, 03:12 PM   #21
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You think linking Breitbart is appropriate?

We had this same discussion over evolution. Lying to save face is supposed to be a sin.

(Do a bit of research on breitbart. They are the epotome of fake news.)
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Old 01-10-2018, 05:01 PM   #22
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"This is false. We reached out to many of the authors of the studies included on this list via email to see if they agreed with Breitbart and No Tricks Zone’s analysis. While not everyone we reached out to responded, not a single researcher that we spoke to agreed with Breitbart’s assessment, and most were shocked when we told them that their work was presented as evidence for that claim.

A representative response came from Paul Mayewski, author of one of the studies included on the No Tricks Zone list and director of the University of Maine’s Climate Change Institute:

They are absolutely incorrect!!!! Quite the opposite, the paper deals with the impacts of greenhouse gas warming and Antarctic ozone depletion — both human caused — and describes future scenarios. Yet another example of downright lies."
(https://www.snopes.com/scientific-pa...-warming-myth/)
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:56 PM   #23
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You think linking Breitbart is appropriate?

We had this same discussion over evolution. Lying to save face is supposed to be a sin.

(Do a bit of research on breitbart. They are the epotome of fake news.)
You only like the news that fits your narrative. There's more to the story.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:10 PM   #24
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In its hottest December ever recorded, Alaska was a stunning 15.7°F above the 20th century average. And the year ended with Arctic sea ice hitting an all-time record low. While the East Coast had a cool December and New Year’s week, Alaska baked. Last Tuesday, Anchorage hit 48°F, warmer than southern cities from Atlanta and Jacksonville to Houston and New Orleans. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) reported this week that Alaska averaged 19.4°F for the month, topping the previous record (1985) by a whopping 2.1°F. “That’s really quite astonishing,” said Rick Thoman, the National Weather Service’s climate sciences and services manager for the Alaska region.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:18 PM   #25
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As announced in a report issued this week by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), 2017 was a historic year, and not at all in a good way. Climate-related disasters, including the hurricanes and wildfires that dominated headlines during late 2017, exceeded $300 billion in costs last year – a new annual U.S. record. In fact, last year’s weather events shattered the previous record dating back to 2005, when the likes of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita added up to a total of $214.8 billion in damages. In addition to the California wildfires and Hurricanes Harvey, Maria and Irma, NOAA’s accounting also included droughts in the Dakotas and Montana; flooding in Missouri and Arkansas;
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:35 PM   #26
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As announced in a report issued this week by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), 2017 was a historic year, and not at all in a good way. Climate-related disasters, including the hurricanes and wildfires that dominated headlines during late 2017, exceeded $300 billion in costs last year – a new annual U.S. record. In fact, last year’s weather events shattered the previous record dating back to 2005, when the likes of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita added up to a total of $214.8 billion in damages. In addition to the California wildfires and Hurricanes Harvey, Maria and Irma, NOAA’s accounting also included droughts in the Dakotas and Montana; flooding in Missouri and Arkansas;
Signs of the times Luke 12.54-57
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:28 PM   #27
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Signs of the times Luke 12.54-57
Yes, we see a south wind blowing, we know their will be scorching heat. And, yes, we will not escape until we have paid the very last mite.
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Old 01-16-2018, 06:26 PM   #28
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MOSCOW (AP) — Even thermometers can't keep up with the plunging temperatures in Russia's remote Yakutia region, which hit minus 67 degrees Celsius (minus 88.6 degrees Fahrenheit) in some areas Tuesday.

In Yakutia — a region of 1 million people about 3,300 miles (5,300 kilometers) east of Moscow — students routinely go to school even in minus 40 degrees. But school was canceled Tuesday throughout the region and police ordered parents to keep their children inside.

In the village of Oymyakon, one of the coldest inhabited places on earth, state-owned Russian television showed the mercury falling to the bottom of a thermometer that was only set up to measure down to minus 50 degrees. In 2013, Oymyakon recorded an all-time low of minus 71 degrees Celsius (minus 98 Fahrenheit).

Over the weekend, two men froze to death when they tried to walk to a nearby farm after their car broke down. Three other men with them survived because they were wearing warmer clothes, investigators reported.
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Old 04-01-2018, 01:47 PM   #29
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You only like the news that fits your narrative. There's more to the story.
No, I like accurate news based on facts and evidence. There is more to the story because there are people with interest in maintaining fossil fuel consumption sow doubt, and this has been documented in the literature extensively. These people are understandbly sowing lies to save their wallets. You may look into this yourself. Scientists disagree on certain aspects about climate change models and the like, but basically all scientists on in agreement in regards to the basics of climate change(that the earth(as a whole) is warming and this is mainly caused by the burning of fossil fuels since the beginning of the industrial revolution...and that this will cause various changes that will pose problems for society as we know it). I would sooner look at why you like this "news".

Again, very dishonest Ohio. I expect better.
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Old 04-04-2018, 09:37 AM   #30
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ZNP- What do you propose for a solution? Obviously, if oil is the problem, then we should all cease using oil for energy. That would mean an alternative energy source is needed or humankind go back to an agrarian life, which was not very friendly. Mostly what I hear from the climate changers is scare tactics of doom and gloom, while the proponents still have no problem living with the luxury and benefit of oil. The only solution that ever seems to be proposed is TAX. If the scientists have an answer/an alternative, bring it out, draw up a workable model that would not be dependent on oil. I see no workable model being presented.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:13 AM   #31
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No, I like accurate news based on facts and evidence. There is more to the story because there are people with interest in maintaining fossil fuel consumption sow doubt, and this has been documented in the literature extensively. These people are understandbly sowing lies to save their wallets. You may look into this yourself. Scientists disagree on certain aspects about climate change models and the like, but basically all scientists on in agreement in regards to the basics of climate change(that the earth(as a whole) is warming and this is mainly caused by the burning of fossil fuels since the beginning of the industrial revolution...and that this will cause various changes that will pose problems for society as we know it). I would sooner look at why you like this "news".

Again, very dishonest Ohio. I expect better.
With this horrible weather we have had, I'm expecting the Ice Age is on the horizon.
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Old 04-04-2018, 10:59 AM   #32
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ZNP- What do you propose for a solution? Obviously, if oil is the problem, then we should all cease using oil for energy. That would mean an alternative energy source is needed or humankind go back to an agrarian life, which was not very friendly. Mostly what I hear from the climate changers is scare tactics of doom and gloom, while the proponents still have no problem living with the luxury and benefit of oil. The only solution that ever seems to be proposed is TAX. If the scientists have an answer/an alternative, bring it out, draw up a workable model that would not be dependent on oil. I see no workable model being presented.
I could give you the solution in 2 words but I doubt any would understand. The solution has to be practical. It is completely unreasonable and impractical to think that 8 billion people will stop using fossil fuel because of climate change. Likewise, solar is becoming more and more economic and bigger and it is growing exponentially. But that doesn't mean people will stop using existing power plants fueled with fossil fuel.

So then it will take 100+ years to make the transition to an essentially carbon free power. So then the real question is what is the solution that will get us through the next 100 years. Personally I think the cost of climate change is finally beginning to take a bite out of numerous government budgets and that is the reason the consensus has swung, it truly is a "green" issue now.

I am avoiding getting into details about the "solution" because it is quite lengthy. But in short here is what a solution looks like -- it will be a city (we have to think of societal changes to make an impact), this city will be carbon neutral (as more and more of these cities get built we will see a significant decrease in emissions), this city will be designed to survive hurricanes, floods, droughts, tornadoes, and other forms of extreme weather events. This city will also be a far more economic place to live and far more pleasant place to live, this will be the motivation for people to move, build, and fund the construction. Finally the city has to be built in desert environments and ocean environments, because other than those two places it is hard to find the space to build brand new cities.

In two words the solution is the "New Jerusalem".
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Old 04-07-2018, 08:41 PM   #33
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With this horrible weather we have had, I'm expecting the Ice Age is on the horizon.
Noreaster fury indeed!

Joking aside, weather and climate are different, and places can see more extreme weather(yes, even colder winters) in a changing climate. This isn't surprising.
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Old 04-08-2018, 05:13 AM   #34
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Noreaster fury indeed!

Joking aside, weather and climate are different, and places can see more extreme weather(yes, even colder winters) in a changing climate. This isn't surprising.
One of the predicted changes due to climate change is a very mild ice age in Europe.

The idea is that the ocean currents will temporarily (a few years) shut down due to all the less dense fresh water due to melting of ice. This will prevent warm water from the equator to move north along the Gulf stream current.

It appears we are seeing this. This will have massive impacts worldwide. Equatorial waters will become much hotter, Europe will be dumped on with lots of snow, and worldwide the ocean will see lots of death due to the lack of upwelling currents bringing up nutrients.
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:33 AM   #35
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One of the predicted changes due to climate change is a very mild ice age in Europe.

The idea is that the ocean currents will temporarily (a few years) shut down due to all the less dense fresh water due to melting of ice. This will prevent warm water from the equator to move north along the Gulf stream current.

It appears we are seeing this. This will have massive impacts worldwide. Equatorial waters will become much hotter, Europe will be dumped on with lots of snow, and worldwide the ocean will see lots of death due to the lack of upwelling currents bringing up nutrients.
Climate will indeed change before the great and terrible day of the Lord!
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Old 04-08-2018, 10:43 AM   #36
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Climate will indeed change before the great and terrible day of the Lord!
Yes, that great and terrible day prophecies of "And the second poured out his bowl into the sea; and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living soul died, even the things that were in the sea."
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Old 04-08-2018, 12:56 PM   #37
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Climate will indeed change before the great and terrible day of the Lord!
That's why we elect climate deniers : to bring the Lord back. We want it so bad we don't care if every soul dies ; of the neighbors Jesus instructed us to love.

But maybe that's why over 80% of Evangelical's voted for Trump. For their "loving" Jesus to come back.

When's the slaughter start? Climate change is way too slow. And there's waaaay toooo many neighbors to love.
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:11 PM   #38
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That's why we elect climate deniers : to bring the Lord back. We want it so bad we don't care if every soul dies ; of the neighbors Jesus instructed us to love.

But maybe that's why over 80% of Evangelical's voted for Trump. For their "loving" Jesus to come back.

When's the slaughter start? Climate change is way too slow. And there's waaaay toooo many neighbors to love.
You spend waaaay toooo much time with Joe and Meeka.
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:09 PM   #39
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You spend waaaay toooo much time with Joe and Meeka.
I spend absolutely no time with Joe and Mika.
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:23 PM   #40
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That's why we elect climate deniers : to bring the Lord back. We want it so bad we don't care if every soul dies ; of the neighbors Jesus instructed us to love.
Do the math. 8 billion people, of those 7 billion are not going to worry about Climate change when to their calculation they didn't cause the problem and they are living hand to mouth. Of the 1 billion people left who are the biggest polluters, they are on a treadmill that can't stop. Their economy has to grow by 1-2% per year to avoid recession and depression. They also have a massive installed base of infrastructure depending on fossil fuel that they cannot afford to shutter. The idea that Al Gore, much less Hillary Clinton would have made a difference is completely unrealistic and ignores the math, the economics and the political reality in the US. It has taken us close to 200 years to go from the industrial revolution in its infancy when steam pumps were used to pump out mines, to climatic catastrophe. You have to go back a long way in history before you can actually find a leader who actually could have averted this disaster. When Solomon was mining ore on an industrial level he also needed to pump water out. Had they invented the steam engine at that time (there were steam engines designed as toys and novelties in ancient Greece) then Israel could have gone through the industrial revolution during the 400 years from Solomon to the Babylonian invasion. They were sitting on an ocean of oil. Imagine the Babylonians riding in on horses to discover Israel after 400 years of industrialization.

The US represents about 5% of the world's population. Even if we discover cleaner technology, the car companies and other companies sell their old factory parts to the developing nations. The problem is not Trump, or Gore, or Clinton. The problem is this system that put us on a highway that led straight off a cliff.
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Old 04-08-2018, 04:43 PM   #41
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Do the math. 8 billion people, of those 7 billion are not going to worry about Climate change when to their calculation they didn't cause the problem and they are living hand to mouth. Of the 1 billion people left who are the biggest polluters, they are on a treadmill that can't stop. Their economy has to grow by 1-2% per year to avoid recession and depression. They also have a massive installed base of infrastructure depending on fossil fuel that they cannot afford to shutter. The idea that Al Gore, much less Hillary Clinton would have made a difference is completely unrealistic and ignores the math, the economics and the political reality in the US. It has taken us close to 200 years to go from the industrial revolution in its infancy when steam pumps were used to pump out mines, to climatic catastrophe. You have to go back a long way in history before you can actually find a leader who actually could have averted this disaster. When Solomon was mining ore on an industrial level he also needed to pump water out. Had they invented the steam engine at that time (there were steam engines designed as toys and novelties in ancient Greece) then Israel could have gone through the industrial revolution during the 400 years from Solomon to the Babylonian invasion. They were sitting on an ocean of oil. Imagine the Babylonians riding in on horses to discover Israel after 400 years of industrialization.

The US represents about 5% of the world's population. Even if we discover cleaner technology, the car companies and other companies sell their old factory parts to the developing nations. The problem is not Trump, or Gore, or Clinton. The problem is this system that put us on a highway that led straight off a cliff.
We should not be blaming people for climate change. The real source of greenhouse gas are them cattle.

We’ve Grossly Underestimated How Much Cow Farts Are Contributing to Global Warming

The source of the problem is all you hamburger lovers!

Save the planet, boycott McDonald's!

.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:51 AM   #42
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We should not be blaming people for climate change. The real source of greenhouse gas are them cattle.

We’ve Grossly Underestimated How Much Cow Farts Are Contributing to Global Warming

The source of the problem is all you hamburger lovers!

Save the planet, boycott McDonald's!

.
Methane is a very valuable gas, we are trying to design bacteria that will produce it economically. What we really need to do is collect the methane from the cows. That is simple and straightforward technically speaking, though it will create an added expense. But along with the added expense is the added revenue stream from the methane.
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Old 04-09-2018, 05:55 AM   #43
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Methane is a very valuable gas, we are trying to design bacteria that will produce it economically. What we really need to do is collect the methane from the cows. That is simple and straightforward technically speaking, though it will create an added expense. But along with the added expense is the added revenue stream from the methane.
It's easier to collect cow paddies than cow farts.

Better to get methane thru fracking!
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:04 AM   #44
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It's easier to collect cow paddies than cow farts.

Better to get methane thru fracking!
If you put the cows within a dome it is simple to collect (methane is lighter than air). The Eden project (http://www.edenproject.com/) has put vast biomes within domes. The cost is approximately $10 per square foot covered. There would be several benefits in addition to the methane. For example, you could put your pastures in the desert. If the land is free (huge tracts of government owned land in the desert) that would virtually offset the cost of the dome. In addition there would be other benefits to having the cows local rather than cutting down the rainforest in Brazil to give them a pasture. The US government generally collects about 40% of revenue as taxes when all is considered. Therefore it would be a money making operation for the US government to give the land (that they have no other use for) free of charge.
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:10 AM   #45
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If you put the cows within a dome it is simple to collect (methane is lighter than air). The Eden project (http://www.edenproject.com/) has put vast biomes within domes. The cost is approximately $10 per square foot covered. There would be several benefits in addition to the methane. For example, you could put your pastures in the desert. If the land is free (huge tracts of government owned land in the desert) that would virtually offset the cost of the dome. In addition there would be other benefits to having the cows local rather than cutting down the rainforest in Brazil to give them a pasture. The US government generally collects about 40% of revenue as taxes when all is considered. Therefore it would be a money making operation for the US government to give the land (that they have no other use for) free of charge.
Cow domes in a desert to collect farts up top?

Great idea.

But don't those cows need to eat?
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:58 AM   #46
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We should not be blaming people for climate change. The real source of greenhouse gas are them cattle.

We’ve Grossly Underestimated How Much Cow Farts Are Contributing to Global Warming

The source of the problem is all you hamburger lovers!

Save the planet, boycott McDonald's!

.
Ha ha. Good one Ohio. But save the fracking.

Of course humans are causing climate change. If we just count the cow farts we'll know that. But add to that rice patties. They produce methane too. Boycott Chinese and Mexican too.

But hey, humans aren't done causing that. They had to add fracking to it. That's losing over $1.5 billion in leaks a year.

But Exxon Mobile, and Shell, knowing full well about the causes of climate change for decades, points to cow farts.

I think at bottom, if we're looking for the originator of ALL the causes, it's human farts, or the humans letting them. There's too many of them.

But who cares.

"We don't have to protect the environment the Second Coming is at hand."
James Watt, Interior Secretary under Ronald Reagan
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:40 AM   #47
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Cow domes in a desert to collect farts up top?

Great idea.

But don't those cows need to eat?
The dome allows sunlight through, and these things are huge, they can cover entire pastures. Inside the dome you can control the climate, reduce evaporation, so that even in a desert you could have a pasture.
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:03 AM   #48
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Ha ha. Good one Ohio. But save the fracking.

Of course humans are causing climate change. If we just count the cow farts we'll know that. But add to that rice patties. They produce methane too. Boycott Chinese and Mexican too.

But hey, humans aren't done causing that. They had to add fracking to it. That's losing over $1.5 billion in leaks a year.

But Exxon Mobile, and Shell, knowing full well about the causes of climate change for decades, points to cow farts.

I think at bottom, if we're looking for the originator of ALL the causes, it's human farts, or the humans letting them. There's too many of them.

But who cares.

"We don't have to protect the environment the Second Coming is at hand."
James Watt, Interior Secretary under Ronald Reagan
You seem more scared of the 2nd coming of Christ than all the natural and supernatural calamities that are coming.

Aren't you concerned that some of these globalist totalitarians might decide to "thin the herd" and include you in their plans?
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:12 AM   #49
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That's why we elect climate deniers : to bring the Lord back. We want it so bad we don't care if every soul dies ; of the neighbors Jesus instructed us to love.

But maybe that's why over 80% of Evangelical's voted for Trump. For their "loving" Jesus to come back.

When's the slaughter start? Climate change is way too slow. And there's waaaay toooo many neighbors to love.
Never heard of a "climate denier."

Do you really think hybrid cars will save us from the "rising oceans."

Talk about a false hope! Those who reject the Savior are willing to trust most anything.

Why is it that all these High Priests of Climate Change, like Obama, Gore, and DiCaprio all get rich hob-nobbing the planet in private jets with their entourages, while the rest of us are supposed to ride bicycles?
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Old 04-09-2018, 08:39 AM   #50
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"We don't have to protect the environment the Second Coming is at hand."
James Watt, Interior Secretary under Ronald Reagan
Always hatin on the Republicans! More fake news!

The former secretary of the interior under President Reagan, James Watt, continues to draw criticism for things he probably did not say.
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Old 04-09-2018, 09:51 AM   #51
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Never heard of a "climate denier."

Do you really think hybrid cars will save us from the "rising oceans."

Talk about a false hope! Those who reject the Savior are willing to trust most anything.

Why is it that all these High Priests of Climate Change, like Obama, Gore, and DiCaprio all get rich hob-nobbing the planet in private jets with their entourages, while the rest of us are supposed to ride bicycles?
hybrid cars will not save the planet, but riding bicycles, that is a different story. Not only will it significantly reduce greenhouse gases, it will also help the job security of those in the medical profession while also "thinning the herd".
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:11 AM   #52
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hybrid cars will not save the planet, but riding bicycles, that is a different story. Not only will it significantly reduce greenhouse gases, it will also help the job security of those in the medical profession while also "thinning the herd".
Personally I do believe the climate is changing, but I don't believe greenhouse gases are the cause of it.

Not just the climate, but the whole earth is changing, with earthquakes and volcanoes to prove it.

Paul says that the "whole creation is groaning together and travailing in pain together" like an expectant mother. (Rom 8)

Sorry folks, but there's no government program that could ever save us from this "groaning" planet. What will happen if the long-promised "big one" would hit the San Andreas fault?
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Old 04-09-2018, 02:19 PM   #53
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Personally I do believe the climate is changing, but I don't believe greenhouse gases are the cause of it.

Not just the climate, but the whole earth is changing, with earthquakes and volcanoes to prove it.

Paul says that the "whole creation is groaning together and travailing in pain together" like an expectant mother. (Rom 8)

Sorry folks, but there's no government program that could ever save us from this "groaning" planet. What will happen if the long-promised "big one" would hit the San Andreas fault?
My personal opinion is that this is similar to Noah learning of the impending flood. Some people are recommending that we get waders, or fill sand bags. Both of those situations may seem appropriate in the event of some floods, but not for Noah's flood. What we need is a city that can weather the storm. It won't be on the coastline (65% of people live there), it won't be in the line of hurricanes and tornadoes. It needs to endure extreme weather events. I like a city in the desert designed for 10 inches of rain or less a year.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:19 AM   #54
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I could give you the solution in 2 words but I doubt any would understand. The solution has to be practical. It is completely unreasonable and impractical to think that 8 billion people will stop using fossil fuel because of climate change. Likewise, solar is becoming more and more economic and bigger and it is growing exponentially. But that doesn't mean people will stop using existing power plants fueled with fossil fuel.

So then it will take 100+ years to make the transition to an essentially carbon free power. So then the real question is what is the solution that will get us through the next 100 years. Personally I think the cost of climate change is finally beginning to take a bite out of numerous government budgets and that is the reason the consensus has swung, it truly is a "green" issue now.

I am avoiding getting into details about the "solution" because it is quite lengthy. But in short here is what a solution looks like -- it will be a city (we have to think of societal changes to make an impact), this city will be carbon neutral (as more and more of these cities get built we will see a significant decrease in emissions), this city will be designed to survive hurricanes, floods, droughts, tornadoes, and other forms of extreme weather events. This city will also be a far more economic place to live and far more pleasant place to live, this will be the motivation for people to move, build, and fund the construction. Finally the city has to be built in desert environments and ocean environments, because other than those two places it is hard to find the space to build brand new cities.

In two words the solution is the "New Jerusalem".
ZNP- problem with that solution is that the New Jerusalem is built by God- it's not earthly- where we all live. Perhaps the solutiion would be a little more God-given-down-to-earth: what about implementing a weekly sabbath rest. 6 days of energy use, one day of shutting down all but necessary consuming. Turn off the whole consumption/get ahead/entertainment/travel/military/electronic society and contemplate creation and the God who created all things. This would reduce what some feel are the catalysts for climate change about 14%. It would also be an internal change-maker for the human soul.
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Old 04-10-2018, 10:13 AM   #55
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ZNP- problem with that solution is that the New Jerusalem is built by God- it's not earthly- where we all live. Perhaps the solutiion would be a little more God-given-down-to-earth: what about implementing a weekly sabbath rest. 6 days of energy use, one day of shutting down all but necessary consuming. Turn off the whole consumption/get ahead/entertainment/travel/military/electronic society and contemplate creation and the God who created all things. This would reduce what some feel are the catalysts for climate change about 14%. It would also be an internal change-maker for the human soul.
If you are going the wrong direction, driving slower is not a solution.

Sabbath rest for who? Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, etc?

Even if we were to immediately drop to 0 net emissions we would still continue on this path of Climate change for a great deal longer, maybe even 100+ years.

Are you familiar with a "feedback loop"? We have already reached a level of warming where we are getting methane hydrates bubbling up into the atmosphere from what was formerly perma frost and from the sea bottom. This is a very powerful greenhouse gas. As this bubbles up we get accelerated climate change.

As Ohio has pointed out a major portion of our emissions is from cows and pigs. How do you propose a "sabbath rest" from cows and pigs pooping and burping?

Half of a cars emissions are from the manufacture of the car. Just because you don't drive it one day a week won't change all of that.

Heating and cooling of buildings is a major contributor of greenhouse gases. Do you propose that people take a Sabbath rest from heating and cooling their homes and businesses?

The bottom line is we are sitting on the railroad tracks, the train is coming and the only way to survive the coming storm (precisely prophesied about in the book of Revelation) is to build a "boat" that can weather the storm.

Since the NT charges us to "be imitators of God" I see no reason why we can't build a city according to the design of the NJ.
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Old 04-11-2018, 02:26 PM   #56
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WASHINGTON (AP) — Global warming is likely slowing the main Atlantic Ocean circulation, which has plunged to its weakest level on record, according to a new study.
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Old 04-14-2018, 12:27 AM   #57
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Doesn't matter what you believe, only what is demonstrated correct. Believing something that is incorrect is irrelevant.



Just cause you believe you can move mountains doesn't mean a thing.


The futility or solutions to climate change don't effect whether or not it is happening and man caused.
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Old 04-14-2018, 08:02 AM   #58
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Doesn't matter what you believe, only what is demonstrated correct. Believing something that is incorrect is irrelevant.



Just cause you believe you can move mountains doesn't mean a thing.


The futility or solutions to climate change don't effect whether or not it is happening and man caused.
Brother Intothewind, "the answer my friend is blowing in the wind."
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Old 04-17-2018, 06:04 AM   #59
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Syria’s leader Bashar al-Assad responded by cutting food and fuel subsidies, thus planting the seeds for protest and finally civil war (Fountain 2016).The root cause of migration from Syria, then, was climate stress. (Anthropology Matters, Third Edition, Shirley A Fedorak)

Another example of how climate change can increase the fragility of a state is Syria.In 2010–2011, Syria was considered by many political analysts to be a relatively stable state compared to other countries experiencing the so-called “Arab Spring". (Handbook of Transitions to Energy and Climate Security, Robert E. Looney)

If we count climate change as a factor in conflict and violence, it is indirect, through the structural violence which leaves vulnerable populations at risk from natural disasters, droughts and storms, or through the indirect impact of climate on drought-related conflicts such as in Darfur. (Contemporary Conflict Resolution, by Oliver Ramsbotham, Hugh Miall, Tom Woodhouse)
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Old 05-03-2018, 01:45 PM   #60
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‘We’ve fallen off a cliff’: Scientists have never seen so little ice in the Bering Sea in spring
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Old 05-05-2018, 08:10 AM   #61
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Carbon dioxide — the gas scientists say is most responsible for global warming — reached its highest level in recorded history last month, at 410 parts per million.

This amount is highest in at least the past 800,000 years, according to the Scripps Institute of Oceanography. Prior to the onset of the Industrial Revolution, carbon dioxide levels had fluctuated over the millennia but had never exceeded 300 parts per million.
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Old 05-07-2018, 07:42 AM   #62
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It is only May but temperatures are already skyrocketing in the Southwest.

The highest temperature in the nation Sunday was in Thermal, California, where it reached a daily record of 110 degrees. Phoenix hit a record high of 106 Sunday, breaking the record from 1947. Tucson, Arizona, hit their first 100-degree reading for the year, too.
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Old 05-07-2018, 07:47 AM   #63
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(CNN)An ancient virus infecting residents across Australia's Northern Territory is leaving death and despair in its path, and doctors are now calling for greater efforts to stop the spread of infections.

The rates of human T-cell leukemia virus type 1, or HTLV-1, infection are exceeding 40% among adults in remote regions of central Australia, with indigenous communities being the hardest hit, especially in the town of Alice Springs.

(This virus is found in 1500 year old mummies and may have become reactivated due to melting glaciers).
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Old 05-07-2018, 08:52 AM   #64
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Hypocrisy in action ...

Shocking Study: Climate Skeptics More ‘Eco-Friendly’ than Climate Alarmists

Believing in climate change, but not behaving sustainably: Evidence from a one-year longitudinal study

The same is true of our Climate Priesthood like Ozone Al Gore -- hobnobbing the globe in their private jets and limos, while we bike to work.
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Old 05-07-2018, 09:53 AM   #65
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Hypocrisy in action ...

Shocking Study: Climate Skeptics More ‘Eco-Friendly’ than Climate Alarmists

Believing in climate change, but not behaving sustainably: Evidence from a one-year longitudinal study

The same is true of our Climate Priesthood like Ozone Al Gore -- hobnobbing the globe in their private jets and limos, while we bike to work.
The whole thing is idiotic. Half of the carbon footprint of a car is made when it is built. Therefore, buying a Prius that gets 45 mpg is not 50% less footprint than a car that gets 22 mpg. Plus, if you are in a city that generates electricity from coal (very common) your source of generating electricity is not cleaner that burning gas. So if they are saying that people who believe in climate change should have a Prius, that is stupid. And, it is worse than that. The inefficient cars that "pollute" and are no longer legal in the US are not destroyed, those factories are shipped to the third world. This is why you can go to Mexico, Africa or Cuba and find cars that appear to be 40 years old, yet look brand new.

On the other hand if the person who believes in climate change sells the beach house and moves inland 200 miles, that is consistent with their belief.
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Old 05-07-2018, 11:20 AM   #66
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The whole thing is idiotic. Half of the carbon footprint of a car is made when it is built. Therefore, buying a Prius that gets 45 mpg is not 50% less footprint than a car that gets 22 mpg. Plus, if you are in a city that generates electricity from coal (very common) your source of generating electricity is not cleaner that burning gas. So if they are saying that people who believe in climate change should have a Prius, that is stupid. And, it is worse than that. The inefficient cars that "pollute" and are no longer legal in the US are not destroyed, those factories are shipped to the third world. This is why you can go to Mexico, Africa or Cuba and find cars that appear to be 40 years old, yet look brand new.

On the other hand if the person who believes in climate change sells the beach house and moves inland 200 miles, that is consistent with their belief.
Idiotic, stupid, nonsensical, irrational??? Yes, of course!

Cause it is the cult of Green. They have their High Priests, their gospel, their services, their beliefs, their fellowship, etc.

Take away the Lord Jesus, the only true God, and all these liberals have is their cults, their idols, their fanaticism, etc.

Idiotic, stupid, nonsensical, irrational???

Yes, of course, move inland 200 miles! Oops, did you say your island is only 20 miles wide? What will this true believer like you do then???
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Old 05-07-2018, 03:35 PM   #67
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Idiotic, stupid, nonsensical, irrational??? Yes, of course!

Cause it is the cult of Green. They have their High Priests, their gospel, their services, their beliefs, their fellowship, etc.

Take away the Lord Jesus, the only true God, and all these liberals have is their cults, their idols, their fanaticism, etc.

Idiotic, stupid, nonsensical, irrational???

Yes, of course, move inland 200 miles! Oops, did you say your island is only 20 miles wide? What will this true believer like you do then???
We have made important advances. For example solar power is currently the cheapest form of electricity on the planet and is becoming cheaper at a very fast rate. If we were to get to 50% or more of our electricity from renewable energy it would have an impact. If we can get to 90% or higher it could actually be a solution.

Robotic cars are also a way to greatly reduce our footprint.

Of course if Fusion becomes a viable source of power it could be a huge solution.

If we are talking about 100 years from now all of these things are quite realistic in having a worldwide impact. The real issue is surviving the next 100 years.
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Old 05-07-2018, 04:05 PM   #68
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We have made important advances. For example solar power is currently the cheapest form of electricity on the planet and is becoming cheaper at a very fast rate. If we were to get to 50% or more of our electricity from renewable energy it would have an impact. If we can get to 90% or higher it could actually be a solution.

Robotic cars are also a way to greatly reduce our footprint.

Of course if Fusion becomes a viable source of power it could be a huge solution.

If we are talking about 100 years from now all of these things are quite realistic in having a worldwide impact. The real issue is surviving the next 100 years.
I definitely favor solar power, in the right region.

The more I hear about windmills, the less I like them. They are killing off many endangered species, from bats to bald eagles.
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Old 05-07-2018, 05:34 PM   #69
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I definitely favor solar power, in the right region.

The more I hear about windmills, the less I like them. They are killing off many endangered species, from bats to bald eagles.
You can't have more than 25% of your power from solar without a really good way to store the power. So batteries are a critical component to the solution.
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Old 05-08-2018, 04:44 AM   #70
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You can't have more than 25% of your power from solar without a really good way to store the power. So batteries are a critical component to the solution.
The town of Warren, PA has an ingenuous "battery."

Every night their hydro plant on the Allegheny River pumps water to the top of the mountain. During peak consumption they empty the reservoir thru the hydro plant for peak shaving.
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Old 05-08-2018, 05:36 AM   #71
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The town of Warren, PA has an ingenuous "battery."

Every night their hydro plant on the Allegheny River pumps water to the top of the mountain. During peak consumption they empty the reservoir thru the hydro plant for peak shaving.
It is well known that using water in this way is a very efficient battery. The problem is how practical is it for much of the world? I have always felt that using solar power to fill water towers is an ideal application for solar (no need for a battery).
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Old 05-08-2018, 07:47 AM   #72
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Another extreme heat wave strikes the North Pole
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Old 05-08-2018, 09:25 AM   #73
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Another extreme heat wave strikes the North Pole
Apparently just in time to drill in ANWR.
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Old 05-08-2018, 10:28 AM   #74
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Another extreme heat wave strikes the North Pole
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Apparently just in time to drill in ANWR.
So says the CEO of ExxonMobil, and Russia, China, Canada, and all other earth killing scoundrels.
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Old 05-08-2018, 11:30 AM   #75
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So says the CEO of ExxonMobil, and Russia, China, Canada, and all other earth killing scoundrels.
Oh the evil oil that your truck burns and the natural gas that gives you electricity?
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Old 05-09-2018, 02:02 PM   #76
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Oh the evil oil that your truck burns and the natural gas that gives you electricity?
The problem is not that we use electricity, nor is it that we use fossil fuel to generate electricity. The problem is that 7 billion people do this. Had we done this with 7 million people back in the days of Solomon the amount of pollution would have been 0.1% of what it is now while at the same time the amount of plants on both land and sea would have been 100 times greater. If we had transitioned to renewable energy 3,000 years ago this would not have been an issue.
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Old 05-09-2018, 04:36 PM   #77
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The problem is not that we use electricity, nor is it that we use fossil fuel to generate electricity. The problem is that 7 billion people do this. Had we done this with 7 million people back in the days of Solomon the amount of pollution would have been 0.1% of what it is now while at the same time the amount of plants on both land and sea would have been 100 times greater. If we had transitioned to renewable energy 3,000 years ago this would not have been an issue.
The folks in Hawaii don't think their 7 billion neighbors are the problem, rather it's the "whole creation groaning together and travailing in pain," as evidenced by lava flows. (Rom 8.19-22)

The Bible informs us that this earth ball is a disposable and temporary home for man, and was never intended to be permanent dwelling place. The creation knows this, many of God's children know this, yet most people on the planet do not.
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Old 05-10-2018, 04:51 AM   #78
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The folks in Hawaii don't think their 7 billion neighbors are the problem, rather it's the "whole creation groaning together and travailing in pain," as evidenced by lava flows. (Rom 8.19-22)
Yes, this may in fact be a result of climate change, however I expect that building your home on an active volcano is the real issue. Just like people who build their homes in flood zones, etc.

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The Bible informs us that this earth ball is a disposable and temporary home for man, and was never intended to be permanent dwelling place. The creation knows this, many of God's children know this, yet most people on the planet do not.
Yes it does. It also says the Earth is a garden and that man was put into the garden to tend and keep it.

I thought the creation was groaning because man was not expressing Christ.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:37 AM   #79
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Yes, this may in fact be a result of climate change, however I expect that building your home on an active volcano is the real issue. Just like people who build their homes in flood zones, etc.

Yes it does. It also says the Earth is a garden and that man was put into the garden to tend and keep it.
As the earth continues to groan ever more as we see the day drawing near, who can really know the extent of volcanic and flood zone dangers? How could Houstonians know that Harvey could dump 50 inches of rain?

And, yes, Adam was placed in a garden to temd it, but something happened to change all that. That garden is now uninhabitable desert with oil beneath it.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:41 AM   #80
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The problem is not that we use electricity, nor is it that we use fossil fuel to generate electricity. The problem is that 7 billion people do this. Had we done this with 7 million people back in the days of Solomon the amount of pollution would have been 0.1% of what it is now while at the same time the amount of plants on both land and sea would have been 100 times greater. If we had transitioned to renewable energy 3,000 years ago this would not have been an issue.
Are you saying that there are too many people on earth?

That thought has frightening implications.

Did you ever consider that "renewable" energy is just the opium of the masses?
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:47 AM   #81
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Are you saying that there are too many people on earth?

That thought has frightening implications.

Did you ever consider that "renewable" energy is just the opium of the masses?
No, I am saying there is a time for everything under the sun. The time to discover the industrial revolution was when Solomon was king. It was not time to fornicate with a hundred wives.
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Old 05-10-2018, 07:48 AM   #82
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As the earth continues to groan ever more as we see the day drawing near, who can really know the extent of volcanic and flood zone dangers? How could Houstonians know that Harvey could dump 50 inches of rain?

And, yes, Adam was placed in a garden to temd it, but something happened to change all that. That garden is now uninhabitable desert with oil beneath it.
I lived in Houston. First time I ever saw a fire department with a fleet of boats in each fire house. 40 years ago it flooded every time it rained. How could they not know that things will get worse with climate change?
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Old 05-10-2018, 08:05 AM   #83
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Are you saying that there are too many people on earth?
Yes!

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That thought has frightening implications.
Is birth control frightening?

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Did you ever consider that "renewable" energy is just the opium of the masses?
That would be oil.
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:44 AM   #84
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I lived in Houston. First time I ever saw a fire department with a fleet of boats in each fire house. 40 years ago it flooded every time it rained. How could they not know that things will get worse with climate change?
Yes, sure there has been flooding, but then there was FLOODING with Harvey -- in areas never thought of.
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:47 AM   #85
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Yes!

Is birth control frightening?
Birth control is a great idea, so is the ancient practice of abstinence.

Liberal bureaucrats have even prevented it at times from being discussed.

But, you have changed the subject.
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:48 AM   #86
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Yes!


Is birth control frightening?


That would be oil.
Birth control is not a viable solution to world overpopulation.

1. Birth control only limits population growth in the developed world. In the developing world it might decrease the growth rate, but it is still growing rapidly.

2. Birth control is dependent on the type of economy (rural agricultural society still wants lots of children).

3. Birth control is dependent on the economy. When the economy collapses so does birth control.

The only realistic and practical ways to reduce the number of people on the planet from the existing number are:

1. War
2. Plague
3. Holocaust

Also, please note, when a society, like Japan, has a birth rate less than 2 for an extended period of time they "age". This in turn causes the economy to collapse because you have too many elderly people depending on a shrinking tax base to support them. So then you can't (we have yet to see it) have a vibrant economy that is at less than 0 for a growth rate in population. Even if the entire world had a birth rate of 1.5, shrinking the world's population by a billion or so people over the next 60 years, it would cause a global collapse in all of the economies, which in turn would destroy the birth control and birth rates would spike.

Also, in the past wars have not had a big impact on population because the population growth rate is really dependent on women and not men. Historically it is the men who fight and get killed, but within a generation the population has fully recovered and is growing strongly again.

Plague is also not great at limiting growth rate as it generally strikes the young and the elderly.
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Old 05-10-2018, 10:16 AM   #87
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Birth control is not a viable solution to world overpopulation.

1. Birth control only limits population growth in the developed world. In the developing world it might decrease the growth rate, but it is still growing rapidly.

2. Birth control is dependent on the type of economy (rural agricultural society still wants lots of children).

3. Birth control is dependent on the economy. When the economy collapses so does birth control.

The only realistic and practical ways to reduce the number of people on the planet from the existing number are:

1. War
2. Plague
3. Holocaust

Also, please note, when a society, like Japan, has a birth rate less than 2 for an extended period of time they "age". This in turn causes the economy to collapse because you have too many elderly people depending on a shrinking tax base to support them. So then you can't (we have yet to see it) have a vibrant economy that is at less than 0 for a growth rate in population. Even if the entire world had a birth rate of 1.5, shrinking the world's population by a billion or so people over the next 60 years, it would cause a global collapse in all of the economies, which in turn would destroy the birth control and birth rates would spike.

Also, in the past wars have not had a big impact on population because the population growth rate is really dependent on women and not men. Historically it is the men who fight and get killed, but within a generation the population has fully recovered and is growing strongly again.

Plague is also not great at limiting growth rate as it generally strikes the young and the elderly.
Personally, I feel all of the overpopulation discussions are Godless and atheistic. If you believe God created this earth, and put man on it, then you also must believe that He is willing and able to care for them. God commanded man to replenish the earth with every intention of providing a suitable home for all of them.

That's not to say, however, that sin will not take its toll on man's population.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:08 AM   #88
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Personally, I feel all of the overpopulation discussions are Godless and atheistic. If you believe God created this earth, and put man on it, then you also must believe that He is willing and able to care for them. God commanded man to replenish the earth with every intention of providing a suitable home for all of them.

That's not to say, however, that sin will not take its toll on man's population.
Sure God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. That's because there was only two of them. But I'm sure now God is yelling, "stop being fruitful and multiplying. You're killing the critters I saved."

And maybe birth control won't work. But give every household in the world a TV and remote, and reproduction will slow way down.

Calling those that are concerned about the population explosion atheists is asinine.
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:44 PM   #89
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Personally, I feel all of the overpopulation discussions are Godless and atheistic. If you believe God created this earth, and put man on it, then you also must believe that He is willing and able to care for them. God commanded man to replenish the earth with every intention of providing a suitable home for all of them.

That's not to say, however, that sin will not take its toll on man's population.
I see it differently. The Bible talks about the man child being born, so I see the Earth like a womb where the man child grows. Just like a baby will grow in the womb until there is no longer room and the womb starts to break down. Also, often the baby will begin to ingest feces prior to birth.

So those who realize we can't continue to grow exponentially without a crisis are right, and those who believe it is all under God's sovereignty are right.

But those who think "birth control" is a solution have not thought this through.
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Old 05-10-2018, 01:46 PM   #90
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Sure God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. That's because there was only two of them. But I'm sure now God is yelling, "stop being fruitful and multiplying. You're killing the critters I saved."

And maybe birth control won't work. But give every household in the world a TV and remote, and reproduction will slow way down.

Calling those that are concerned about the population explosion atheists is asinine.
Wow! You are sure about this?
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Old 05-10-2018, 04:51 PM   #91
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I see it differently. The Bible talks about the man child being born, so I see the Earth like a womb where the man child grows. Just like a baby will grow in the womb until there is no longer room and the womb starts to break down. Also, often the baby will begin to ingest feces prior to birth.

So those who realize we can't continue to grow exponentially without a crisis are right, and those who believe it is all under God's sovereignty are right.

But those who think "birth control" is a solution have not thought this through.
The population is a crisis, not because the earth cannot sustain life, but because of the results of sin and rejecting God. There are now numerous crises coming to a head -- whether climate, or environment, or nuclear, or pandemic, or financial meltdown, or all of the above as prophesied, etc., mankind is in quite a fix. Today Iran and Israel, for example, are at war. With any of these conflicts, we might hit the flashpoint.

This is the inevitable result of man living temporarily under the god of this age, but the earth is the Lord's. He has redeemed man and creation, and desires to return for His own. In brief, like the message in the "Lord of the Flies," man cannot survive on his own. We barely survived the first two world wars, and we will not survive the third.
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Old 05-10-2018, 05:26 PM   #92
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The population is a crisis, not because the earth cannot sustain life, but because of the results of sin and rejecting God. There are now numerous crises coming to a head -- whether climate, or environment, or nuclear, or pandemic, or financial meltdown, or all of the above as prophesied, etc., mankind is in quite a fix. Today Iran and Israel, for example, are at war. With any of these conflicts, we might hit the flashpoint.

This is the inevitable result of man living temporarily under the god of this age, but the earth is the Lord's. He has redeemed man and creation, and desires to return for His own. In brief, like the message in the "Lord of the Flies," man cannot survive on his own. We barely survived the first two world wars, and we will not survive the third.
I thought that was the message of the Bible
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:49 AM   #93
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I thought that was the message of the Bible
If Renewables Are So Great for the Environment, Why Do They Keep Destroying It?
"Michael Shellenberger, the founder and president of Environmental Progress, presented an argument that would appear nearly blasphemous for anyone fighting on the front lines of the green energy movement. Shellenberger made the case that renewable energy is not beneficial, but actually damaging, to the environment in a Thursday Forbes article. He added that if renewables take up a larger share of electricity generation — something environmentalists have ardently campaigned for — the ecological impact would be even more devastating."
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Old 05-18-2018, 10:14 AM   #94
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If Renewables Are So Great for the Environment, Why Do They Keep Destroying It?
"Michael Shellenberger, the founder and president of Environmental Progress, presented an argument that would appear nearly blasphemous for anyone fighting on the front lines of the green energy movement. Shellenberger made the case that renewable energy is not beneficial, but actually damaging, to the environment in a Thursday Forbes article. He added that if renewables take up a larger share of electricity generation — something environmentalists have ardently campaigned for — the ecological impact would be even more devastating."
Far too generic to be meaningful.

Wind turbines kill birds. As a result they are studying different techniques to warn and keep the birds away. The real killer seems to be with bats, but again that would not apply to off shore where the best wind is.

Solar power can take up a lot of real estate, that could be an issue. But if we use it for roofs and roads that is a non issue. China is experimenting with floating solar farms, that would have serious ecologic impact to the lake.

We are also experimenting with making fuel from Algae. I don't see why that would have a negative environmental impact.
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:30 PM   #95
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If Renewables Are So Great for the Environment, Why Do They Keep Destroying It?
"Michael Shellenberger, the founder and president of Environmental Progress, presented an argument that would appear nearly blasphemous for anyone fighting on the front lines of the green energy movement. Shellenberger made the case that renewable energy is not beneficial, but actually damaging, to the environment in a Thursday Forbes article. He added that if renewables take up a larger share of electricity generation — something environmentalists have ardently campaigned for — the ecological impact would be even more devastating."
Did you read the article? Michael is concerned for renewables killing critters.

And you get a more rounded picture of Michael here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shellenberger
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Old 05-18-2018, 09:40 PM   #96
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NASA head Bridenstine lays out climate change beliefs

“I don't deny the concensus that the climate is changing. In fact I fully believe and know that the climate is changing, and I also know that we human beings are contributing to it in a major way. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. We're putting it into the atmosphere in volumes that we haven't seen and that greenhouse gas is warming the planet. That is absolutely happening and we are responsible for it.”
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...518-story.html
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Old 05-19-2018, 01:46 AM   #97
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NASA head Bridenstine lays out climate change beliefs

“I don't deny the concensus that the climate is changing. In fact I fully believe and know that the climate is changing, and I also know that we human beings are contributing to it in a major way. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. We're putting it into the atmosphere in volumes that we haven't seen and that greenhouse gas is warming the planet. That is absolutely happening and we are responsible for it.”
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...518-story.html
His views are a little self-serving.
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Old 05-19-2018, 05:10 AM   #98
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His views are a little self-serving.
He's a republican and Trump appointee.
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Old 05-19-2018, 05:35 AM   #99
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Did you read the article? Michael is concerned for renewables killing critters.

And you get a more rounded picture of Michael here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shellenberger
He seems focused on the energy issue -- which he doesn't dispute, only the solution.

Solar and wind are, in his terms, "chaotic". This means you want a reliable source of energy that is there day or night, whether the wind is blowing or not. To get that you will need really good batteries, otherwise solar and wind are simply "green wash" for fossil fuel as he says.

I think everyone would agree that Fusion would be the solution -- and he is advocating government expenditures to make new technology affordable and practical.

That said much of the best technological advances are coming in battery technology.
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Old 05-19-2018, 06:33 AM   #100
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He seems focused on the energy issue -- which he doesn't dispute, only the solution.

Solar and wind are, in his terms, "chaotic". This means you want a reliable source of energy that is there day or night, whether the wind is blowing or not. To get that you will need really good batteries, otherwise solar and wind are simply "green wash" for fossil fuel as he says.

I think everyone would agree that Fusion would be the solution -- and he is advocating government expenditures to make new technology affordable and practical.

That said much of the best technological advances are coming in battery technology.
He's a big supporter of nuclear power. How about SNAP units in every home?
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Old 05-19-2018, 03:18 PM   #101
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He's a big supporter of nuclear power. How about SNAP units in every home?
Fission compares very well with coal, but that is only because coal is so deadly. No one has figured out what to do with the nuclear waste, a very big concern I would think. Also, no one has figured out how to decommission a nuclear power plant even though they know their effective life is only about 100 years or less.
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:34 PM   #102
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Fission compares very well with coal, but that is only because coal is so deadly. No one has figured out what to do with the nuclear waste, a very big concern I would think. Also, no one has figured out how to decommission a nuclear power plant even though they know their effective life is only about 100 years or less.
They put SNAP units in satellites, to power them. They considered putting them in homes, but decided against it because then uranium would be easy to come by.

All power solutions have problems. But we've got to do something.

Shellenberger is big on technology solving the problem. But research has discovered even cell towers kill critters, as do high power electrical wires.
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:42 PM   #103
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They put SNAP units in satellites, to power them. They considered putting them in homes, but decided against it because then uranium would be easy to come by.

All power solutions have problems. But we've got to do something.

Shellenberger is big on technology solving the problem. But research has discovered even cell towers kill critters, as do high power electrical wires.
We can generate up to 20% of our power from solar. Putting solar cells on roofs will solve our needs for the next 5-7 years. Hopefully by then we will have much better batteries that will open the door to get 40% of our power from solar.

In 20 years it is conceivable that Nuclear Fusion will be an economically viable solution.
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Old 06-26-2018, 05:37 AM   #104
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If the mean of its temperature from 1970-1999 is taken as a baseline, the temperatures from 2010-2016 are nearly four standard deviations higher. 2016—the most recent year we have validated data for—was 6.3 standard deviations higher.

This is astounding. 6.3 standard deviations is a huge amount. Generally 99.7% of data falls within 3 standard deviations. We generally consider natural fluctuations can go as high as 90%, once you get to 95% we feel that you have proven that other factors are at play.
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:38 AM   #105
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We can generate up to 20% of our power from solar. Putting solar cells on roofs will solve our needs for the next 5-7 years. Hopefully by then we will have much better batteries that will open the door to get 40% of our power from solar.

In 20 years it is conceivable that Nuclear Fusion will be an economically viable solution.
I like solar much more than wind, which has serious impact upon wildlife. I also like ground source heat pumps.

I seriously doubt Nuclear will ever return. With 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, and that Japanese Tsunami meltdown, we have a whole generation of Millennials ready to protest. Also, look how NoKo and Iran used their "power" needs to secretly develop nukes.
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:36 AM   #106
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I like solar much more than wind, which has serious impact upon wildlife. I also like ground source heat pumps.

I seriously doubt Nuclear will ever return. With 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, and that Japanese Tsunami meltdown, we have a whole generation of Millennials ready to protest. Also, look how NoKo and Iran used their "power" needs to secretly develop nukes.
Solar is extremely convenient because you can put it at the end user, as a result we don't need to pay for transmission costs. In addition, by putting it on your roof you take energy that would have become heat and thus raised your cooling bill or increased the heat island effect of cities and turn it into electricity. Two very big benefits. Also, because the energy generation is distributed among a multitude of sites you are actually making US energy production more secure in the event of an attack or act of terrorism.

However, unless we make significant breakthroughs in batteries we will only be able to generate 25% of our power from solar, at the absolute best case scenario. If you add wind to that mix you would increase the total % because wind blows at night as well as during the day. The best place for wind is on the ocean about a half mile from the shore. That would be ideal for 70% of the world's population.

That said, the real future of energy is fusion. I base that on the NJ which "has no need of the Sun".

German Nuclear Fusion Experiment Sets Records for Stellarator Reactor

With new materials like graphene and new quantum computers and AI we should have this thing finally running economically.
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:19 AM   #107
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A private nuclear-fusion company has heated a plasma of hydrogen to 27 million degrees Fahrenheit (15 million degrees Celsius) in a new reactor for the first time — hotter than the core of the sun. UK-based Tokamak Energy says the plasma test is a milestone on its quest to be the first in the world to produce commercial electricity from fusion power, possibly by 2030.
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Old 07-27-2018, 08:52 AM   #108
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/heatwaves...104056769.html
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Old 07-28-2018, 09:27 AM   #109
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https://www.perc.org/2016/07/21/clea...c-perspective/

The average number of structures destroyed by wildfire per year in the US has increased 20 fold from the 1960s to this present decade.
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Old 07-29-2018, 05:14 PM   #110
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Japan hit 106 degrees last Monday, its hottest temperature ever. Records fell in parts of Massachusetts, Maine, Wyoming, Colorado, Oregon, New Mexico and Texas. And then there’s crazy heat in Europe, where normally chill Norway, Sweden and Finland all saw temperatures they have never seen before on any date, pushing past 90 degrees. So far this month, at least 118 of these all-time heat records have been set or tied across the globe, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:32 PM   #111
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Japan hit 106 degrees last Monday, its hottest temperature ever. Records fell in parts of Massachusetts, Maine, Wyoming, Colorado, Oregon, New Mexico and Texas. And then there’s crazy heat in Europe, where normally chill Norway, Sweden and Finland all saw temperatures they have never seen before on any date, pushing past 90 degrees. So far this month, at least 118 of these all-time heat records have been set or tied across the globe, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Even if there were no fossil fuels, the weather patterns would be going crazy ... "For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope the creation itself will be liberated from the bondage of corruption and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."
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Old 07-29-2018, 09:00 PM   #112
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Even if there were no fossil fuels, the weather patterns would be going crazy ... "For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope the creation itself will be liberated from the bondage of corruption and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."
Right. Forget saving the environment for the generations to come. Creation was just waiting for you to come along. Not Brother Lee. You.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:19 AM   #113
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Right. Forget saving the environment for the generations to come. Creation was just waiting for you to come along. Not Brother Lee. You.
If you really cared about the environment, you would go change China, India, and all the other polluters. This fake concept about "America Leading" is not working out, since these countries even refuse to use our clean burning technologies.

But I get it that this is your new religion -- a faithful "save the planet" zealot who refuses to use plastic straws.
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Old 07-30-2018, 07:46 AM   #114
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If you really cared about the environment, you would go change China, India, and all the other polluters. This fake concept about "America Leading" is not working out, since these countries even refuse to use our clean burning technologies.

But I get it that this is your new religion -- a faithful "save the planet" zealot who refuses to use plastic straws.
In 2015, plastic consumption worldwide totaled 300 million metric tonnes. That essentially means that for each one of the world's 7.6 billion humans, we're making 88 pounds of plastic a year.
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Old 07-30-2018, 08:49 AM   #115
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If you really cared about the environment, you would go change China, India, and all the other polluters. This fake concept about "America Leading" is not working out, since these countries even refuse to use our clean burning technologies.

But I get it that this is your new religion -- a faithful "save the planet" zealot who refuses to use plastic straws.
I'm sympathetic with your eschatological hope, but not at the expense of destroying the environment we all live in. As you must know as a student of history, Christians have mistakenly thought that Christ was returning in their generation many times before. We shouldn't repeat their mistake by acting irresponsibly toward the world we live in.

The most important work we can do at the moment is to get rid of Donald Trump who wants to pull the US out of the Paris international climate agreement, has taken steps to cut back the US Environmental Protection Agency, and said that global warming is a hoax invented by the Chinese to attack US manufacturing. When he is defeated, the USA can resume efforts to reverse his assault on the environment and seek world-wide efforts to limit anthropogenic greenhouse gas production for the greater good of the future of life on this planet.
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Old 07-30-2018, 09:09 AM   #116
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In 2015, plastic consumption worldwide totaled 300 million metric tonnes. That essentially means that for each one of the world's 7.6 billion humans, we're making 88 pounds of plastic a year.
And this is good or bad?

And the Dems rising star Occasional-Cortex (from your neck of the woods) is screaming about plastic straws, and how the Founding Fathers were not Capitalists.
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Old 07-30-2018, 09:16 AM   #117
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I'm sympathetic with your eschatological hope, but not at the expense of destroying the environment we all live in. As you must know as a student of history, Christians have mistakenly thought that Christ was returning in their generation many times before. We shouldn't repeat their mistake by acting irresponsibly toward the world we live in.

The most important work we can do at the moment is to get rid of Donald Trump who wants to pull the US out of the Paris international climate agreement, has taken steps to cut back the US Environmental Protection Agency, and said that global warming is a hoax invented by the Chinese to attack US manufacturing. When he is defeated, the USA can resume efforts to reverse his assault on the environment and seek world-wide efforts to limit anthropogenic greenhouse gas production for the greater good of the future of life on this planet.
I am not sympathetic to your myopic view of current events. The idea that Trump alone could do anything is absurd. He obviously is the puppet on the string of a bunch of corporate overlords. We have known since Al Gore that we are heading off a cliff, didn't see anyone else do anything.

The real difference is that as the evidence mounts it is harder and harder for these politicians to obfuscate until the puppet masters need to blatantly deny doing anything, Trump.
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Old 07-30-2018, 09:17 AM   #118
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And this is good or bad?

And the Dems rising star Occasional-Cortex is screaming about plastic straws, and how the Founding Fathers were not Capitalists.
It is unsustainable and has to be changed.
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Old 07-30-2018, 09:38 AM   #119
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I'm sympathetic with your eschatological hope, but not at the expense of destroying the environment we all live in. As you must know as a student of history, Christians have mistakenly thought that Christ was returning in their generation many times before. We shouldn't repeat their mistake by acting irresponsibly toward the world we live in.

The most important work we can do at the moment is to get rid of Donald Trump who wants to pull the US out of the Paris international climate agreement,
You are delusional. Trump Derangement Syndrome will do that to you.

Who gets to define who is destroying the environment???

I think these environmental protesters are doing the most damage. Did you ever see all the trash, graffiti, and destruction at every protest. Did you checkout all the damage to the environment left behind by these protesters at the Dakota Access Pipeline? Compare that to every Right-to-Life protest that occurs annually in Wash D.C.

You wacky environmentalists do far more damage than any good. You guys are just some crazy cult. You try to provide authenticity to these paid protesters who go around screaming for every absurd cause. Go to Bangladesh and do some good for the world.

EPA? Environmental Protection? Are you serious?

Did you see what they did to the Animas River? EPA? No thanks!

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Old 07-30-2018, 09:47 AM   #120
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It is unsustainable and has to be changed.
Tell that to the folks in the medical profession who use plastics to save people.

Tell that to the military who use plastics to protect us.

We used to use environmentally friendly and renewable paper bags at the grocery stores until the wackos told us that was bad.

So we now use plastic bags at the grocery story and the wackos tell us that is now evil.
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Old 07-30-2018, 09:53 AM   #121
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I am not sympathetic to your myopic view of current events. The idea that Trump alone could do anything is absurd. He obviously is the puppet on the string of a bunch of corporate overlords. We have known since Al Gore that we are heading off a cliff, didn't see anyone else do anything.

The real difference is that as the evidence mounts it is harder and harder for these politicians to obfuscate until the puppet masters need to blatantly deny doing anything, Trump.
Send Al Gore off the cliff. Ozone Al told us we would all die because of the ozone. Then the rising oceans.

What a hypocrite. This guy laughs all the way to the bank each day in his private jet. He has a carbon footprint as big as Brontosaurus Rex.

One reason Conservatives like Trump is because he never sold out to special interests like Clinton, Bush, and Gore.
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Old 07-30-2018, 12:57 PM   #122
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Tell that to the folks in the medical profession who use plastics to save people.

Tell that to the military who use plastics to protect us.

We used to use environmentally friendly and renewable paper bags at the grocery stores until the wackos told us that was bad.

So we now use plastic bags at the grocery story and the wackos tell us that is now evil.
All those plastics could be from hemp. All the plastics in your car could be made of hemp. Oh, but that's a schedule 1 drug.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:00 PM   #123
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Tell that to the folks in the medical profession who use plastics to save people.

Tell that to the military who use plastics to protect us.

We used to use environmentally friendly and renewable paper bags at the grocery stores until the wackos told us that was bad.

So we now use plastic bags at the grocery story and the wackos tell us that is now evil.
One change we are doing is recycling. I am sure that is something that doesn't conflict with doctors saving our lives and the military killing our enemies.

In NYC I imagine we are approaching a very high rate of recycling. But I doubt that is typical of the rest of the world.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:14 PM   #124
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One change we are doing is recycling. I am sure that is something that doesn't conflict with doctors saving our lives and the military killing our enemies.

In NYC I imagine we are approaching a very high rate of recycling. But I doubt that is typical of the rest of the world.
I pay for each bag of trash, so I have an incentive to burn all my wood scraps and fill my recycle bin, both of which are free. I doubt that all the extra work helps the environment. Even times a thousand.

Probably the best thing my neighbors could do is to mulch their grass clippings, shred their leaves and yard clippings, and use a compost bin for food, all of which I do.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:15 PM   #125
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All those plastics could be from hemp. All the plastics in your car could be made of hemp. Oh, but that's a schedule 1 drug.
Save the environment! Get stoned!
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:19 PM   #126
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He's a big supporter of nuclear power. How about SNAP units in every home?
People are worried about the radiation from cell phones, and you want to give everyone their own nuclear radiation source?
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:23 PM   #127
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I'm sympathetic with your eschatological hope, but not at the expense of destroying the environment we all live in. As you must know as a student of history, Christians have mistakenly thought that Christ was returning in their generation many times before. We shouldn't repeat their mistake by acting irresponsibly toward the world we live in.
Christians have been a driving force for efficient use of resources and technological innovations since day one.

And now you are comparing the entire body of believers to a few quacks who made false predictions?

So biased. So pathetic. So false. So anti-Christian.
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Old 07-31-2018, 06:34 AM   #128
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Christians have been a driving force for efficient use of resources and technological innovations since day one.
The relationship of the church and Christians with science has been mixed. Amir Dan Aczel, Israeli-born American lecturer in mathematics and the history of mathematics and science writes:
Over the centuries, religion assumed a moral and spiritual role in human life and also began to rely more and more on the supernatural. This hampered advances in natural science for many centuries.

The Greek civilization had advanced ideas about the natural world— including Democritus’s perceptive notion of atoms and the heliocentric view of the solar system advanced by the fourth-century b.c. philosopher Philolaus. When this great culture declined and the Western world sank into the Dark Ages, Scripture assumed the role of the explanation of truth, and freethinking was shunned.

This mode of thought continued through the late Middle Ages, when except for the development of crude notions about medicine (most of them wrong, such as prescribing bleeding as treatment for various ailments) there were few attempts to pursue science. Deviations from established belief were not tolerated in a culture dominated by the church and Catholic monarchs. Simply put, the “order of things” was not up for debate. Aczel, Amir. Why Science Does Not Disprove God (pp. 64-65). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.


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And now you are comparing the entire body of believers to a few quacks who made false predictions? So biased. So pathetic. So false. So anti-Christian.
"Quacks" is your characterization not mine. Some Christians of virtually every generation have hoped for the return of Jesus in their lifetime. That hope sometimes takes the form of predictions. The motives of the would-be prophets vary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...alyptic_events

Again I see your tendency to view everything in black and white, them-against-us terms affecting your thinking, this time in the way you read history.
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Old 07-31-2018, 10:44 AM   #129
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Christians have been a driving force for efficient use of resources and technological innovations since day one.
"We don't have to protect the environment the Second Coming is at hand."
James Watt, Interior Secretary under Ronald Reagan
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Old 11-01-2018, 10:29 AM   #130
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Awhile ago I went sour on wind energy, since the verdict had come in on the "experiment." I first saw turbine "farms" back in the early 90's driving out to Anaheim. In those barren desert valleys, turbines may still be a good idea, but elsewhere I doubt it.

Wind Turbines Can Harm Heart, Says German Professor
The wind industry is a massive class action suit waiting to happen. [Especially now that the World Health Organisation has confirmed the health risks – which, of course, just like Big Tobacco, Big Wind has been covering up for years] Indeed, of all the scandals to emerge from the great global warming scam, the wind industry is in my view the worst.

Wind power is often billed as cheap, clean, wholesome and safe. In fact, it’s very expensive, environmentally damaging, harmful to humans and animals – and pretty much useless in the war on climate change. But you don’t get to read the truth very often in the credulous mainstream media which prefers to run the propaganda put out by extremely well-funded wind industry lobbyists.

Typical is this farrago of drivel from the BBC. It’s titled: "Reality Check: Which form of renewable energy is cheapest?" Wind – you guessed it – turns out to be the answer. Which isn’t a particularly big deal when you think about it. The point about renewable energy is that all of it is dramatically more expensive than fossil fuel energy. So being the “cheapest” form of renewable energy is a bit like winning the prize for “thinnest sumo wrestler” or “least unpleasant Antifa activist” or “sanest Remain voter”: pretty meaningless in the great scheme of things.

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Old 11-21-2018, 09:36 AM   #131
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The primary cause of global warming or anthropogenic climate change is hot air from miscreants like Al Gore, the worlds first individual carbon credit billionaire.

The primary cause of global warming is the Sun, the nearest star.
Cosmic rays impact cloud formation.
Climate has been changing throughout geologic history.
That the climate changes is not new.

The primary greenhouse gas is water vapor, not CO2.

The greatest threats to mankind is not CO2 emissions but deceptions.
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Old 11-21-2018, 10:06 AM   #132
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The primary cause of global warming or anthropogenic climate change is hot air from miscreants like Al Gore, the worlds first individual carbon credit billionaire.

The primary cause of global warming is the Sun, the nearest star.
Cosmic rays impact cloud formation.
Climate has been changing throughout geologic history.
That the climate changes is not new.

The primary greenhouse gas is water vapor, not CO2.

The greatest threats to mankind is not CO2 emissions but deceptions.
Yes, the sun is the cause of heat entering our system, greenhouse gases are the reason the heat doesn't escape. If we had no greenhouse gases it would be catastrophic, that was the situation when we had "snowball earth". However, we need a balance. Too little is bad, and too much is also bad for life as we know it (just look at Venus).

It is also true that climate changes throughout geologic history but you have neglected to mention that the most extreme changes coincide with the greatest extinction events. The Permian extinction saw over 90% of all species go extinct. Greenhouse gases were also very extreme then, so extreme that the ocean evaporated and we have evidence that the ocean floor was exposed to the atmosphere.

Water is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. However, the amount of water vapor in the air is dependent on the temperature, as temperature increases we will have more water vapor in the air. Carbon dioxide by contrast has been altered due to human burning of fossil fuel. We are not talking about forest fires, burning trees and plants is not equivalent to burning fossil fuel.

What deception is the threat to mankind?

1. The deception that the Democrats or "Green" party will actually do anything about it? Not going to happen, that ship sailed 40 years ago. At this point the only suggestions being made would slow down the exponential growth in greenhouse gases. They would require a greater cost being born by the developed nations while the 3rd world gets a pass. Although that is superficially fair, the problem is that the adoption of greenhouse burning fuels by the 3rd world would be catastrophic and erase any gains made through political means in the 1st world.

Or are you referring to the deception that the judgements on the Earth about being burned with great heat are not real? Sorry to burst your bubble, those judgements are real and are not delaying in coming.

No, the reality is catastrophic climate change is already upon us. Just ask Puerto Rico, California and Houston. What we have seen in the US is only a very small sampling of what the rest of the world is seeing. We are already seeing an exponential rise in climate refugees which may soon eclipse all other refugees combined. We are seeing horrible drought, spread of tropical diseases, forest fires, and super storms. The size and frequency have been increasing over the last 50 years and have taken off in the last 10-20 years. In the last 3-4 years we have seen each year bringing new records. You can tabulate the insurance costs to get an idea, but the reality is these numbers are greatly minimized for the first 3 years, so there is a lag on this, and insurance numbers do not reflect the damage to the 3rd world as most of that is uninsured.
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Old 11-21-2018, 11:10 AM   #133
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The primary cause of global warming or anthropogenic climate change is hot air from miscreants like Al Gore, the worlds first individual carbon credit billionaire.

The greatest threats to mankind is not CO2 emissions but deceptions.
recoveringCK, I'm old enough to remember my school days with endless photos of frozen woolly mammoths forecasting the impending ICE AGE. The progressives of old seized on colder-than-usual weather in the 60's to spook us.

I recently watch this excellent show with Mark Levin about so-called climate change. . .

Brilliant Analysis of Climate Change by Top Expert IPCC Climatologist - Dr. Patrick Michaels

For those of us who still believe in God, we know with assurance that all the weather is in His hands.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:26 PM   #134
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recoveringCK, I'm old enough to remember my school days with endless photos of frozen woolly mammoths forecasting the impending ICE AGE. The progressives of old seized on colder-than-usual weather in the 60's to spook us.

I recently watch this excellent show with Mark Levin about so-called climate change. . .

Brilliant Analysis of Climate Change by Top Expert IPCC Climatologist - Dr. Patrick Michaels

For those of us who still believe in God, we know with assurance that all the weather is in His hands.
Ohio does his research well and appreciates concise statements.

There was a medieval warming period followed by a little ice age referred to as the Maunder Minimum before the industrial revolution when man made CO2 emissions was not a factor.

CO2 is released from the oceans into the atmosphere as the amount of solar energy reaching the ground increases. Solar energy from the Sun is modified by volcanic eruptions and cloud formation. Cosmic rays can influence and increase cloud formation, increasing reflected solar energy reducing the solar energy reaching the surface.

CO2 promotes plant growth increasing food crop production.

deception
n. the act of misleading another through intentionally false statements or fraudulent actions. (See: fraud, deceit)

The greatest threats to humans are deceptions:
Fake facts intentionally stated or poorly researched by ideologues,
false science which does not use the scientific method,
intentionally misleading statements which are difficult to wade through without graduate level study,
following the model first demonstrated by Satan, “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. “For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” There was only a grain of truth big enough to swallow the lie. Deception.

Alarmist use deception to generate hysteria for their own benefit.
Deception is the threat and the alarmist behind their deceptions.
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Old 11-23-2018, 04:43 PM   #135
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"With continued growth in emissions at historic rates, annual losses in some economic sectors are projected to reach hundreds of billions of dollars by the end of the century - more than the current gross domestic product (GDP) of many U.S. states," the report, the Fourth National Climate Assessment Volume II, said.

Global warming would disproportionately hurt the poor, broadly undermine human health, damage infrastructure, limit the availability of water, alter coastlines, and boost costs in industries from farming, to fisheries and energy production, the report said.
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Old 11-25-2018, 05:16 AM   #136
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"With continued growth in emissions at historic rates, annual losses in some economic sectors are projected to reach hundreds of billions of dollars by the end of the century - more than the current gross domestic product (GDP) of many U.S. states," the report, the Fourth National Climate Assessment Volume II, said.

Global warming would disproportionately hurt the poor, broadly undermine human health, damage infrastructure, limit the availability of water, alter coastlines, and boost costs in industries from farming, to fisheries and energy production, the report said.
That is referring to the US. We have a diversified economy and have a very large land area. Take a country that is lowland like Bangladesh, or that is far more dependent on one or two agricultural crops (Coffee, Bananas, cotton, etc) then it is very likely for particular countries the loss could be closer to 30%. We are going to have climate refugees, not simply people from Puerto Rico, California and Houston, but even more from the 3rd world.

All told, the report says, climate change could slash up to a tenth of gross domestic product by 2100, more than double the losses of the Great Recession a decade ago.

The difference with the Great recession is that this will be worldwide, and will not be something we can "bounce back from" it will simply be bad with more catastrophic on the horizon.

At present the US has 1 trillion dollars in assets on our coastline threatened by hurricanes and sea level rise. The US coastline is about 2% of the world's. So assets damaged in the US will only be a very tiny percent of the overall damage done.
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Old 11-25-2018, 06:29 AM   #137
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That is referring to the US. We have a diversified economy and have a very large land area. Take a country that is lowland like Bangladesh, or that is far more dependent on one or two agricultural crops (Coffee, Bananas, cotton, etc) then it is very likely for particular countries the loss could be closer to 30%. We are going to have climate refugees, not simply people from Puerto Rico, California and Houston, but even more from the 3rd world.

All told, the report says, climate change could slash up to a tenth of gross domestic product by 2100, more than double the losses of the Great Recession a decade ago.

The difference with the Great recession is that this will be worldwide, and will not be something we can "bounce back from" it will simply be bad with more catastrophic on the horizon.

At present the US has 1 trillion dollars in assets on our coastline threatened by hurricanes and sea level rise. The US coastline is about 2% of the world's. So assets damaged in the US will only be a very tiny percent of the overall damage done.
But bro ZNP we don't like doing what it takes to prevent the human side of the cause of climate change.

I feel guilty for driving my car, for burning wood for heat, but am not going to stop. We're not going to do without, if that's what it takes.

We've got to get population growth under control. The causes of climate change will only get worse with population growth.

Marvin Harris, in his book, Cannibals and Kings: Origins of Cultures, points out that even primitive tribes in the past had different methods of controlling the population of their tribe, using even infanticide.

Wiki reports :
Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule."[3]:61
But we have much better methods, like modern birth control. But we don't even want to use them. Our religions tell it it's a sin. And forget infanticide. Our religions tells us that even the morning after pill is murder, before it is even an infant.

Maybe we should put cable and flat screen TV's in every home on the planet. That remote will slow down the population explosion.

But even then religions like the local church forbid that. It's of 'the world.'

So we're not going to stop causing climate change. Not until catastrophe puts a stop to it.

Maybe it's God's plan for Armageddon.
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Old 11-25-2018, 01:23 PM   #138
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But bro ZNP we don't like doing what it takes to prevent the human side of the cause of climate change.

I feel guilty for driving my car, for burning wood for heat, but am not going to stop. We're not going to do without, if that's what it takes.

We've got to get population growth under control. The causes of climate change will only get worse with population growth.

Marvin Harris, in his book, Cannibals and Kings: Origins of Cultures, points out that even primitive tribes in the past had different methods of controlling the population of their tribe, using even infanticide.

Wiki reports :
Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule."[3]:61
But we have much better methods, like modern birth control. But we don't even want to use them. Our religions tell it it's a sin. And forget infanticide. Our religions tells us that even the morning after pill is murder, before it is even an infant.

Maybe we should put cable and flat screen TV's in every home on the planet. That remote will slow down the population explosion.

But even then religions like the local church forbid that. It's of 'the world.'

So we're not going to stop causing climate change. Not until catastrophe puts a stop to it.

Maybe it's God's plan for Armageddon.
Realistically speaking even if Carter had been successful it is highly unlikely to have made any difference. Suppose 50 years ago we spent $1 trillion on developing solar and wind. The US is still about 5% of world population, and then we would have $1 trillion worth of antiquated and less efficient solar and wind which would have to be replaced. And then that $1 trillion would not have been around to fight all the wars since Carter.

This is why I feel the really good opportunity to avoid this entire man made catastrophe was at the time of Solomon. If he had stayed focus long enough to get the industrial revolution started the world would be a very different place.
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:21 AM   #139
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"The Trump White House, which has defined itself by a willingness to dismiss scientific findings and propose its own facts, on Friday issued a scientific report that directly contradicts its own climate-change policies.

That sets the stage for a remarkable split-screen political reality in coming years. The administration is widely expected to discount or ignore the report’s detailed findings of the economic strain caused by climate change, even as it continues to cut environmental regulations, while opponents use it to mount legal attacks against the very administration that issued the report."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/c...gtype=Homepage
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:39 AM   #140
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As the High Priest of the Climate Change religion of hypocritical Albert Gore, whose carbon footprint measures up with the greatest of all, Obama's goal was simple -- not to help the planet, but to bring the US down to the economic status of Kenya.

The Paris Climate Accord had as much impact on the world as the Pope has on the Protestant churches. Yet we were supposed to give them $Billions in order for these "developing" countries like China to continue burning coal with 1890's technology.

We need to seriously investigate why Obama, Biden, and the Clinton's have been in bed with China, Iran, and Russia. Why does technology and regulations constantly flow in their direction, and Big Money flow into their own pockets and tax-exempt foundations? Why is it that they can control nearly all the media to be silent on their own corruption, yet be complicit with Deep State fabrications of "collusion" with dictators?
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:43 PM   #141
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As the High Priest of the Climate Change religion of hypocritical Albert Gore, whose carbon footprint measures up with the greatest of all, Obama's goal was simple -- not to help the planet, but to bring the US down to the economic status of Kenya.

The Paris Climate Accord had as impact on the world as the Pope has on the Protestant churches. Yet we were supposed to give them $Billions in order for these "developing" countries like China to continue burning coal with 1890's technology.

We need to seriously investigate why Obama, Biden, and the Clinton's have been in bed with China, Iran, and Russia. Why does technology and regulations constantly flow in their direction, and Big Money flow into their own pockets and tax-exempt foundations? Why is it that they can control nearly all the media to be silent on their own corruption, yet be complicit with Deep State fabrications of "collusion" with dictators?
And that is why it is absurd to think politicians will legislate a solution. The shrill debate on either side, the accusations of fraud, collusion, and corruption. Every country operating from a self serving motive.

I feel Climate change will be devastating over the next 5 years. Not for the nation as a whole, but for individual regions like Puerto Rico, Yemen, Syria, Houston, California, etc. Everything we have seen the last few years of massive storms, fires, droughts, will be seen again and again.

But Kyoto and any other UN legislation is worse than a fig leaf.


At this point states and cities need to do what they can to protect themselves.
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Old 11-26-2018, 05:39 PM   #142
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And that is why it is absurd to think politicians will legislate a solution. The shrill debate on either side, the accusations of fraud, collusion, and corruption. Every country operating from a self serving motive.

I feel Climate change will be devastating over the next 5 years. Not for the nation as a whole, but for individual regions like Puerto Rico, Yemen, Syria, Houston, California, etc. Everything we have seen the last few years of massive storms, fires, droughts, will be seen again and again.
In many cases, folks do not differentiate the storm itself from the damages it causes. This is especially true with hurricanes. After the Federal Gov't decided to underwrite flood insurance, in places where private insurers would not, we saw exponential development along the southern coastlines. The exact same storms, 20-30-40-50 years later now do many times more damage.

We also must discuss human stupidity which escalates horrific damages. Firstly, after Katrina we learned that NoLa was sinking 3-4 times faster than previously thought. Conclusion: Rebuild the houses. Second, CA has passed extensive environmental laws that heavily restrict such vital fire-preventing measures as logging, removal of dead trees, and clearing of dry underbrush. Results: Rampant fires like the one that decimated Paradise.

Blame it on the new age religion of "Climate Change."

Personally I do believe the climate is changing. The earth is changing. We will see more earthquakes, volcanoes, and related disasters. The earth and its climate is the Lord's.
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:45 PM   #143
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In many cases, folks do not differentiate the storm itself from the damages it causes. This is especially true with hurricanes. After the Federal Gov't decided to underwrite flood insurance, in places where private insurers would not, we saw exponential development along the southern coastlines. The exact same storms, 20-30-40-50 years later now do many times more damage.

We also must discuss human stupidity which escalates horrific damages. Firstly, after Katrina we learned that NoLa was sinking 3-4 times faster than previously thought. Conclusion: Rebuild the houses. Second, CA has passed extensive environmental laws that heavily restrict such vital fire-preventing measures as logging, removal of dead trees, and clearing of dry underbrush. Results: Rampant fires like the one that decimated Paradise.

Blame it on the new age religion of "Climate Change."

Personally I do believe the climate is changing. The earth is changing. We will see more earthquakes, volcanoes, and related disasters. The earth and its climate is the Lord's.
Personally I agree that the climate is the Lord's. However, it has been impacted by man's failure to follow the Lord, hence the use of it in God's judgement. Otherwise it does not make sense that our actions (our sins) result in God's judgement (the natural disaster). Yet that is what many portions of the OT say.

So much of what you have just shared is a good example of God's judgement on man for his stupidity.
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Old 11-27-2018, 07:50 AM   #144
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Personally I agree that the climate is the Lord's. However, it has been impacted by man's failure to follow the Lord, hence the use of it in God's judgement. Otherwise it does not make sense that our actions (our sins) result in God's judgement (the natural disaster). Yet that is what many portions of the OT say.

So much of what you have just shared is a good example of God's judgement on man for his stupidity.
I have read about God's judgment on man's sin, pride, and rebellious ways, but you have added stupidity. Compared to an all wise God, are we not all stupid? Without divine instruction, how can God judge us?

Last week I visited Christians who live on the end of a remote dirt road, and I got stuck in the mud when leaving. Basically couldn't see a thing. Was I being judged by God for my "stupidity" in not owning a raised 4x4 off-road truck, or was it just an opportunity for grace as we struggled for vehicular "freedom" throughout that dark gloomy night?
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Old 11-27-2018, 10:35 AM   #145
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Latest Global Warming Lies from US Global Change Research Program
The trouble with climate models is that their output is not a plausible representation of the climate of the Earth. The in words of the distinguished climate scientist Kevin Trenberth, no climate skeptic: “…none of the climate states in the models corresponds even remotely to the current observed climate.”

The climate models are very large black boxes. They are far too complicated to make sense of what is going on. The way the models are used to create predictions or projections of future climate is determined by political, not scientific considerations. The results of the many models are simply averaged together to create an ensemble of climate models that is used to make the doomsday predictions. Instead of using the best model to make predictions, all the models are used as if every model is as good as every other model.

The climate of the last 118 years is a clear demonstration of the fallacy of using climate models to predict the future climate. Carbon dioxide, according the theories supported by the IPCC and the USGCRP, had insignificant influence on climate prior to 1975. Yet, from 1910 to 1940 the Earth warmed strongly, not as a response to CO2. What caused that early century warming? No one knows. It is a mystery to this day. The only thing we know for sure is that it was not caused by CO2.

From 1975 to 2000, a very similar strong warming took place. According to the apostilles of global warming, that late century warming was caused exclusively by CO2. How do they know that the late century warming was not caused by the same mysterious force that caused the early century warming? They don’t, but they claim it because it is politically convenient. From 2000 to the present there has been little global warming, probably none if the influence of tropical El Nino events is discounted.

The corruption of science has its roots in the political funding of science by the federal government.Somehow we have to make it less profitable for scientists to make up science. Peer review is a joke and doesn’t work. Certainly it would help if the public and the media were skeptical about any scientific theory that predicts a disaster unless we do what the scientists and their allies want us to do.
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Old 11-27-2018, 04:55 PM   #146
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Here is a very simple question for all those upset over the fact that I and others do not believe in this religion of Climate Change: How many scientific doomsday prophecies do we have to see debunked before we are allowed to be skeptical of the next one?

awareness, on numerous occasions on this forum, has dissed all Christian ministers because of bogus "end of the world" prophetic dates which came and went. Why am I also not entitled to the same prerogatives regarding what I consider to be fake science?
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:04 PM   #147
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Here is a very simple question for all those upset over the fact that I and others do not believe in this religion of Climate Change: How many scientific doomsday prophecies do we have to see debunked before we are allowed to be skeptical of the next one?

awareness, on numerous occasions on this forum, has dissed all Christian ministers because of bogus "end of the world" prophetic dates which came and went. Why am I also not entitled to the same prerogatives regarding what I consider to be fake science?
No one has stopped you. And yes, it is a fair comparison, your dissing the scientists doing research on Climate Change does remind me of Awareness dissing any and all Christians. You and Awareness are really very similar, I guess I never saw it before.
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:02 PM   #148
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LC Heresies

The WL the elders and BBs maintain a hierarchical structure which is enforced secretly through indirect means while claiming there is no hierarchy. All the while stating that in the church there are no secrets, everything is in the open while contradicting their words with their deeds. They speak against the practice of the nicolaitans while ruling over the saints. Anyone openly speaking such truth will be quarantined.

It took a surprisingly long time to realize it. That is what unconditional absolute acceptance of the “truth” will do for you.

It seems fair to call their followers devotees.

As in the quote attributed to George Orwell -- in a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. We live in a time of many deceptions.


Population Bomb Heresies

There are huge population problems on this planet.

Italy has a population problem – a population decrease problem.
Search term: Italy population decrease.
.
Japan has a similar population problem.
Search term: Japan population decrease.

It is much the same in the rest of the industrialized world.
Wikipedia has a section titled "Population decline - Wikipedia"

The population problem is mostly regional.

Africa is facing great and potentially catastrophic population increase.
Asian population is also set to significantly increase.

Perhaps the developed world can teach Africans how to industrialize and
the Africans can teach the people in the developed world how to procreate.

The faith [belief] adherents of the population explosion theory in the developed world seem out of place.

But adherence to their theory seems almost cult-like.


Anthropocentric Global Warming or Climate Change Heresies

Over geologic time, atmospheric CO2 does not drive global climate.
The sun does. Solar output carries in a cyclical manor. The sun is the primary driver for global warming.

CO2 levels have been both higher and lower than it is today. Average global temperatures have also been both higher and lower than they are today.

CO2 is a lagging indicator for global warming. It is not a leading indicator and is not a causative factor.

CO2 is a minor greenhouse gas. It is not a major contributor. Water vapor is the major greenhouse gas

Many computer models ignore those "inconvenient" facts.

A petition with over 31,000 scientists' signatures cast doubt on the “97% consensus” figure.

Once 100% of the recognized authorities agreed the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. Then there was the Copernican Revolution was a paradigm shift to the heliocentric model. It happens.

Beliefs of anthropocentric global warming / climate change devotees have more in common with cults followers than facts. It reminds me of my experience in local christian group I was associated with.

An infamous Austrian with a nasty disposition and a funny mustache along with his publicist sidekick are both reported to have said that if you tell a lie big enough loud enough long enough, eventually the people will believe it. A key is it must be a big lie. And loud. Eventually the people believe it.

That maniac was of course the leader of the NAZI death cult. They pretended their eugenics policies were based on science with “science” articles in approved peer review journals. It was fake too. But there were true believers.

Speaking of death cults, policies advocated by global warming fanatics, in addition to being uneconomical will be genocidal. Poor people will take the blunt of that -- everyone except the "elites." Think Al Gore et al.

If one looks at the actual facts, it looks like a political scam, not "science."

Belief is for religious faiths and cults Facts are for science.
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:42 PM   #149
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The faith [belief] adherents of the population explosion theory in the developed world seem out of place.

But adherence to their theory seems almost cult-like.
True about population in the developed world. But does this world population clock lie? :

https://www.census.gov/popclock/

Quote:
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If one looks at the actual facts, it looks like a political scam, not "science."

Belief is for religious faiths and cults Facts are for science.
I think it's hard to get around the fact that the polar caps are melting ... away, for the north pole.

Sounds to me like you've got stocks in the energy companies. They just love that the north pole is melting. Then their freighters can pass over it, and cut their shipping costs way down.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:32 AM   #150
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https://truthout.org/articles/califo...mate-refugees/

California Climate refugees


http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2018...-at-post.html?
World faces “impossible” task at post-Paris climate talks – “The national plans, when you add everything up, will take us way beyond 3, potentially 4 degrees Celsius warming”


https://psmag.com/environment/climat...from-wildfires

Climate Change Is Making It Harder for Forests to Recover From Wildfires
A growing body of research suggests that, thanks to various environmental symptoms of climate change, America's forests are increasingly at a disadvantage when it comes to recovering from devastating wildfires.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:48 AM   #151
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Climate Change Is Making It Harder for Forests to Recover From Wildfires
A growing body of research suggests that, thanks to various environmental symptoms of climate change, America's forests are increasingly at a disadvantage when it comes to recovering from devastating wildfires.
"Growing body of research" all funded by agenda-driven Western globalist governments, including the latest US report. Why is it that none of their dire predictions have come true?
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:51 AM   #152
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"Growing body of research" all funded by agenda-driven Western globalist governments, including the latest US report. Why is it that none of their dire predictions have come true?
7 projections that have come true:

https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-...have-come-true
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Old 11-30-2018, 11:01 AM   #153
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Those were "projections come true?" Seriously?

I like #6: "A coming ice age was not predicted in the 1970s—that was “if it bleeds it leads, if it thinks it stinks” journalism. “ 1970's ice age predictions were predominantly media based."

Lots of hooey here. All I heard in the early 70's was the coming ICE AGE, with pictures of Woolly Mammoths in huge ice blocks. Now they say that was "stinky" journalism? Huh? That was science! Well, kind of. Actually it was Political Science. Same as today. Science manipulated for political gain.

You can be assured it's all fake when the High Priest of Global Warming, Ozone Al Gore himself, has the biggest carbon footprint on the planet, and raking in millions from his gullible followers.





50 years from now, they will be telling us the same message again about "stinky" journalism and bad science during the Trump administration.
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Old 11-30-2018, 01:56 PM   #154
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Those were "projections come true?" Seriously?

I like #6: "A coming ice age was not predicted in the 1970s—that was “if it bleeds it leads, if it thinks it stinks” journalism. “ 1970's ice age predictions were predominantly media based."

Lots of hooey here. All I heard in the early 70's was the coming ICE AGE, with pictures of Woolly Mammoths in huge ice blocks. Now they say that was "stinky" journalism? Huh? That was science! Well, kind of. Actually it was Political Science. Same as today. Science manipulated for political gain.

You can be assured it's all fake when the High Priest of Global Warming, Ozone Al Gore himself, has the biggest carbon footprint on the planet, and raking in millions from his gullible followers.





50 years from now, they will be telling us the same message again about "stinky" journalism and bad science during the Trump administration.
You are kidding right? The easiest way to discredit legitimate science is to make it sound like wack jobs. Exxon hires scientists to not only dispute the science but to agree with it in the way of a wacko. Then they point to these wackos and use them to paint all scientist with the same brush.

Point to a reputable scientific journal that promoted this.
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Old 11-30-2018, 05:29 PM   #155
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Regarding 7. “Global warming continues; 2016 will be the hottest year ever recorded” found in
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Really?
Does that include temperatures estimated over geologic time illustrated in the following graph?



Apparently not.

Temperatures have been higher. Much higher. And lower.

We are in an interglacial period of global warming after the Pieistocene ice age. That's good. Not bad.

CO2 does not drive temperature as illustrated by the following graph.



In case clarification is necessary, in the heading Anthropocentric Global Warming or Climate Change Heresies, by “Anthropocentric Global Warming”, I did NOT mean Global Warming or climate change caused by non human factors as is illustrated in the above graphs.

You know what they say about the weather,
"If you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes. It will change."

Climate change is real. Climate does change. Except you have to wait a lot longer than for weather changes.

CO2 does not drive climate change. Mostly it's the sun. The sun is the source of global warming.
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Old 11-30-2018, 06:02 PM   #156
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Regarding 7. “Global warming continues; 2016 will be the hottest year ever recorded” found in

Really?
Does that include temperatures estimated over geologic time illustrated in the following graph?

Apparently not.

Temperatures have been higher. Much higher. And lower.

We are in an interglacial period of global warming after the Pieistocene ice age. That's good. Not bad.

CO2 does not drive temperature as illustrated by the following graph.

In case clarification is necessary, in the heading Anthropocentric Global Warming or Climate Change Heresies, by “Anthropocentric Global Warming”, I did NOT mean Global Warming or climate change caused by non human factors as is illustrated in the above graphs.

You know what they say about the weather,
"If you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes. It will change."

Climate change is real. Climate does change. Except you have to wait a lot longer than for weather changes.

CO2 does not drive climate change. Mostly it's the sun. The sun is the source of global warming.
The quote refers to "recorded temperatures", not inferred temperatures. It is referring to temperatures measured and recorded by human civilization. Humans have only been alive during the Holocene, so you are pulling up inferred temperatures in the geologic past that are millions of years predating humans.

For example 500 million years ago basically predates all life except for single cell organisms. 250 million years ago is the worst extinction in Earth's history. The KT boundary is the extinction of the dinosaurs. So put this into context -- in the last 500 million years the Earth has gotten extremely hotter than it is today, of course those episodes resulted in an environment that humans did not live in and in many cases were not able to live in. Likewise, some of the most extreme cases of global warming in the geologic past took place at the same time as major extinctions.
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:42 PM   #157
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The sun is the source of global warming.
That is a theory that's been considered ... and dismissed for present climate change :

Scientists have considered the sun-climate hypothesis to explain Earth’s rapid warming. The evidence collected show that the sun noticeably affects our climate over millions of years, but it is not the cause of recent warming.

https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warmin....html#bf-toc-1
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Old 12-01-2018, 09:12 AM   #158
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That is a theory that's been considered ... and dismissed for present climate change :

Scientists have considered the sun-climate hypothesis to explain Earth’s rapid warming. The evidence collected show that the sun noticeably affects our climate over millions of years, but it is not the cause of recent warming.

https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warmin....html#bf-toc-1
It is a very complex picture. Yes, there is a cycle where we are closer to the sun and then further from the Sun and also a cycle where our axis of rotation wobbles a little, causing the tilt to be more extreme and less extreme. These cycles play a role.

Likewise there have been huge asteroids that have hit the earth and filled the atmosphere with dust and smoke, blocking the sun and precipitating a global drop in temperature. Likewise every time a major volcano goes off, and when the super volcanoes explode they can have an even bigger impact on global climate. At the time of the biggest extinction there was massive volcanic activity that accompanied that. In addition the movement of the continents due to plate tectonics causes ocean currents to be cut off which in turn stops warm water from going to the poles and that can precipitate an ice age. There is also a cycle where our magnetic north pole flip flops, this results in a short period of a few years without a magnetic shield to block some of the solar radiation, as a result the amount of radiation hitting the earth during those years increases. There are also sun spots which create a short cycle of increase and decrease in the radiation coming from the sun.

It is a complex interplay of factors. Anthropogenic change to the atmosphere due to the burning of fossil fuel is a brand new factor.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:10 AM   #159
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As renewable energy is more economic it is being adopted widely. Solar and wind are two examples and we can expect that this trend continues over the next 100 years. Since it will take that much time to transition from oil and coal there needs to be a 100 year plan in place.

Possible solutions that have been floated

1. A carbon tax. I think this is a failed idea. If 7 states enact this then they will simply lose manufacturing jobs. If the US enacts this we will lose manufacturing to China, Mexico, etc. Doesn't work unless it is worldwide and that is clearly not a realistic idea in the near future.

2. Removing Carbon from the atmosphere. We have the technology to do this, and the carbon we pull could be a valuable resource, offsetting some of the cost. If this were funded globally -- so that every country contributed to the cost in one way or another, and if we used renewable energy (solar or wind) to power this technology it seems like it might be able to allow us to tread water for the next 20 years, after which we might actually make significant headway into reducing carbon in the atmosphere.

It seems to me that many countries would appreciate this approach much more since it doesn't penalize them for existing infrastructure and the cost, if born by the entire planet would be much simpler to make equitable. It also creates a new market for solar and wind and would give us a much bigger bang for our buck from clean energy.

There are major deserts in the world, Sahara, Gobi, Southwest US, and these could be designated as areas for this development. That would create jobs and help bring down the cost of renewable energy from economy of scale.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:36 AM   #160
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As renewable energy is more economic it is being adopted widely. Solar and wind are two examples and we can expect that this trend continues over the next 100 years. Since it will take that much time to transition from oil and coal there needs to be a 100 year plan in place.

Possible solutions that have been floated:
1. A carbon tax.
2. Removing Carbon from the atmosphere.
That "hated" Trump basically ran against carbon tax. Why should Americans be jobless when the rest of the planet gets to pollute it.

Carbon dioxide is a good thing, not a bad. If CO2 increases, so will vegetation. Isn't the Creator wonderful?

Wind energy has reach its inflection point. Soon the environmentalists will be warring with the animal rights folks. Windmills kill birds, bats, and endangered species.
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:52 AM   #161
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That "hated" Trump basically ran against carbon tax. Why should Americans be jobless when the rest of the planet gets to pollute it.
I agree that this idea is incomplete at the best. It is also unrealistic to think we could get a fair application of this tax.

However, mining the atmosphere for carbon dioxide would be much more feasible. First, it would create jobs, not take them away, second it would give a market for solar, third it would be a second way that we could be compliant by reducing our carbon footprint and fourth, you could mitigate the cost by using the carbon (toner, carbon fiber, etc).

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Carbon dioxide is a good thing, not a bad. If CO2 increases, so will vegetation. Isn't the Creator wonderful?
Salt is also a good thing, but too much and you are dead. Water is a good thing but again, too much can be deadly. Sugar is a good thing, too much is deadly.

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Wind energy has reach its inflection point. Soon the environmentalists will be warring with the animal rights folks. Windmills kill birds, bats, and endangered species.
Wind energy is the least expensive way to generate electricity when everything is taken into account.

Making turbines safe for birds and bats is a relatively simple task for engineers. For example there is no need for the turbines to move quickly, you could have a gear system that allows them to turn in low wind, but keeps them moving slowly in high wind. You can put very cheap lights and reflectors on the blades. You can emit some kind of warning to bats, etc.

Wind is not only the least expensive way to generate electricity virtually all the expense is in the installation, therefore you can be sure that existing turbines will continue running for decades. As fossil fuel is exhausted the cost will continue to climb and wind will look better and better. 120 years ago we got a return on investment for oil at 100 or higher (for each barrel of oil used to drill we got 100 back). Today it is less than 2 (we spend a barrel to get less than 2 barrels of oil back). Also, the ecologic devastation has grown as well (fracking, etc).
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Old 12-03-2018, 08:59 AM   #162
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Salt is also a good thing, but too much and you are dead. Water is a good thing but again, too much can be deadly. Sugar is a good thing, too much is deadly.
Bad analogy. We are talking about CO2 and the environment. The more people there are on earth, the more CO2 we produce. The more CO2 we produce, the more food is produced. Great system. Surprised more folks don't acknowledge a creator. Instead they are easily spooked by crooked politicians and biased scientists.



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Making turbines safe for birds and bats is a relatively simple task for engineers. For example there is no need for the turbines to move quickly, you could have a gear system that allows them to turn in low wind, but keeps them moving slowly in high wind. You can put very cheap lights and reflectors on the blades. You can emit some kind of warning to bats, etc.
Apparently these simple engineering solutions are not working.
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:49 PM   #163
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Bad analogy. We are talking about CO2 and the environment. The more people there are on earth, the more CO2 we produce. The more CO2 we produce, the more food is produced. Great system. Surprised more folks don't acknowledge a creator. Instead they are easily spooked by crooked politicians and biased scientists.
Initially as CO2 increased in the atmosphere there was evidence of increased growth of crops. But that is no longer true. 70% of the earth is ocean and that has become acidified and is the process of becoming acidified. Corral and other shell fish are under severe stress. Various climatic stresses (drought, flood, and fires) as well as spread of invasive species of insects have had a devastating impact on our forests.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:31 PM   #164
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Initially as CO2 increased in the atmosphere there was evidence of increased growth of crops. But that is no longer true. 70% of the earth is ocean and that has become acidified and is the process of becoming acidified. Corral and other shell fish are under severe stress. Various climatic stresses (drought, flood, and fires) as well as spread of invasive species of insects have had a devastating impact on our forests.
Ironic. The globalists love their open borders travel, and in return we get endless invasive species far worse than CO2 -- Asian Carp, Asian Stink Bugs, Asian Emerald Ash Borer, Asian Kudzu, Asian Longhorn Beetles, etc. Hopefully Trump gets some "fair" trade agreements with the Chinese.

How is the Lord going to rule an earth devastated by insects, pollution, acid rain, nuclear fallout, etc?
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:12 PM   #165
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Ironic. The globalists love their open borders travel, and in return we get endless invasive species far worse than CO2 -- Asian Carp, Asian Stink Bugs, Asian Emerald Ash Borer, Asian Kudzu, Asian Longhorn Beetles, etc. Hopefully Trump gets some "fair" trade agreements with the Chinese.

How is the Lord going to rule an earth devastated by insects, pollution, acid rain, nuclear fallout, etc?
Seriously? The Earth has gone through much worse. The Permian extinction was unimaginable and yet a few million years later life began to bounce back.

The Earth will be fine. Man on the other hand, man is in a very precarious position.
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:02 PM   #166
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Seriously? The Earth has gone through much worse. The Permian extinction was unimaginable and yet a few million years later life began to bounce back.

The Earth will be fine. Man on the other hand, man is in a very precarious position.
Humans are the cause of the 6th extinction. Humans will be included this go-round.

That's okay. The dinosaurs went extinct and eventually humans came along. Maybe after humans become extinct, some other life form will come along, that's much better, like humans are much better than dinosaurs.

Stranger things have happened ... like the platypus ... like the Big Bang ... or the speaking of things into being, out of thin air, or no air at all ... speaking thin air into being.
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:05 AM   #167
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Humans are the cause of the 6th extinction. Humans will be included this go-round.

That's okay. The dinosaurs went extinct and eventually humans came along. Maybe after humans become extinct, some other life form will come along, that's much better, like humans are much better than dinosaurs.

Stranger things have happened ... like the platypus ... like the Big Bang ... or the speaking of things into being, out of thin air, or no air at all ... speaking thin air into being.
See it is foolish comments like this that have Ohio up in an uproar. Humans will not go extinct, they will be judged. Different. The general description of this judgement is a third of the land and a third of the ocean. So extinct, no, but the death of several billion people -- definite possibility.
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:31 AM   #168
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See it is foolish comments like this that have Ohio up in an uproar. Humans will not go extinct, they will be judged. Different. The general description of this judgement is a third of the land and a third of the ocean. So extinct, no, but the death of several billion people -- definite possibility.
Uproar!

Think about this: The god of this age has convinced the many, especially our next-gen leaders at our "elite" universities, that mankind's greatest "sin" is their carbon footprint. It's scary to think what means they can justify in order to accomplish their ends, supposedly saving "mother earth."
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:47 AM   #169
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'Six panels a minute': Two million Australian homes now have solar
Peter Hannam 3 December 2018 — 1:55pm
Surging power bills and the falling price of solar panels have pushed the number of households with photovoltaics on their roofs past the 2 million mark, according to analysis of Clean Energy Regulator data.

As of last week, there were panels on just over one-fifth of all Australian homes. Sunbelt states of South Australia and Queensland are nearing rates of one-third of total homes, or about twice that of NSW - where state support has largely been removed - and Victoria.
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:39 AM   #170
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'Six panels a minute': Two million Australian homes now have solar
Peter Hannam 3 December 2018 — 1:55pm
Surging power bills and the falling price of solar panels have pushed the number of households with photovoltaics on their roofs past the 2 million mark, according to analysis of Clean Energy Regulator data.

As of last week, there were panels on just over one-fifth of all Australian homes. Sunbelt states of South Australia and Queensland are nearing rates of one-third of total homes, or about twice that of NSW - where state support has largely been removed - and Victoria.
Australia is a spacious desert, sort of like our Southwest, and perfect for solar panels.

Where I live, where the sun won't shine until February, that is, if everything goes well, there are next to no solar panels.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:54 AM   #171
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Australia is a spacious desert, sort of like our Southwest, and perfect for solar panels.

Where I live, where the sun won't shine until February, that is, if everything goes well, there are next to no solar panels.
At present pricing -- around $30,000 per household -- it would take me 25 years of electric bills to equate it. And it would be monthly payments, not a lump-sum. I'd be long gone before I'd see any savings.

Electric bills in Australia must be thru the roof.
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:21 AM   #172
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At present pricing -- around $30,000 per household -- it would take me 25 years of electric bills to equate it. And it would be monthly payments, not a lump-sum. I'd be long gone before I'd see any savings.

Electric bills in Australia must be thru the roof.
That's all chump-change for those making money off the politics of this fake science. Read this book instead and be set free from climate change hysteria ...

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Old 12-06-2018, 10:34 AM   #173
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That's all chump-change for those making money off the politics of this fake science. Read this book instead and be set free from climate change hysteria ...

Why buy his book so he can make money off of climate change, when we can get it free at his website. He's not a scientist any more than you and I are. He only has a bachelor's degree in political science. He's certainly not a respected authority on climate change. He's a political hack.

I thought you believed in getting reputable sources.

His website :

http://www.climatedepot.com/
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:53 AM   #174
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While cynics sell joke books about climate change...
"Greenhouse Gas Emissions Accelerate Like a ‘Speeding Freight Train’ in 2018

Worldwide, carbon emissions are expected to increase by 2.7 percent in 2018, according to the new research, which was published by the Global Carbon Project, a group of 100 scientists from more than 50 academic and research institutions and one of the few organizations to comprehensively examine global emissions numbers.

Emissions rose 1.6 percent last year, the researchers said, ending a three-year plateau.

Reducing carbon emissions is central to stopping global warming."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/c...d=165251391206
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:08 PM   #175
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At present pricing -- around $30,000 per household -- it would take me 25 years of electric bills to equate it. And it would be monthly payments, not a lump-sum. I'd be long gone before I'd see any savings.

Electric bills in Australia must be thru the roof.
Well, if I know you will be paying for electricity for the next 25 years then paying for this over 25 years would work the same way a 25 year mortgage on a house works. But, wait, what if the price of electricity over the next 25 years rises? Well you have locked your price in at today's prices, so it is very possible this would be a great deal.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:40 PM   #176
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While cynics sell joke books about climate change...
Watching the world get conned by the likes of Ozone Al, Arnold the Terminator, and LeoDiCaprio is hysterical. Until we see how rich these guys have become conning the gullible rubes.
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:09 AM   #177
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Watching the world get conned by the likes of Ozone Al, Arnold the Terminator, and LeoDiCaprio is hysterical. Until we see how rich these guys have become conning the gullible rubes.
Exactly. If God had intended us to fly He would have given us wings. If God had intended us to use solar He wouldn't have given us oil, He would have given us solar panels.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:16 AM   #178
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Exactly. If God had intended us to fly He would have given us wings. If God had intended us to use solar He wouldn't have given us oil, He would have given us solar panels.
I appreciate the irony. God gave us something even better... trees. Deforestation is contributing significantly to climate change.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:58 AM   #179
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Exactly. If God had intended us to fly He would have given us wings. If God had intended us to use solar He wouldn't have given us oil, He would have given us solar panels.
They are now saying that the largest deposit of untapped oil ever to be found is in the Texas/New Mexico Permian Basin.

Plenty of fuel to heat for the next global cooling period.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:00 PM   #180
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I appreciate the irony. God gave us something even better... trees. Deforestation is contributing significantly to climate change.
It's time to stop burning live trees, and only burn fossil fuels.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:34 PM   #181
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It's time to stop burning live trees, and only burn fossil fuels.
No one burns live trees. They've got to season at least a year. Two is better. Except White Ash. I burns green.

Burning live trees is a forest fire. Global warming will only cause more.

So are you supporting coal cuz you have stock in coal companies? Damn the future generations. Who cares? Like Trump says, "I won't be here."
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:34 AM   #182
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So are you supporting coal cuz you have stock in coal companies? Damn the future generations. Who cares? Like Trump says, "I won't be here."
That is a fair question. I can understand someone who feels that solar doesn't work for them, but why would you be against others getting solar? Who in their right mind would prefer others burning fossil fuel to solar?
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:36 AM   #183
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Default Re: Climate Change -- Domino

In the aftermath of California's wildfires, homeowners who live in fire-prone areas have struggled to renew their insurance policies with companies that cannot, or refuse to, pay. Now, a Central Valley company has gone out of business after failing to pay out claims to the thousands of people who lost their homes in the Camp fire.

Facing $64 million in claims from Paradise residents, the Merced Property and Casualty Company liquidated and passed on its claims to the state's Insurance Guarantee Association on Monday, Think Progress reports. The fire "completely overwhelmed this company," Nancy Kincaid, press secretary at the California Department of Insurance, told ABC 30. "Looking at the number of claims that they would have ... it left them insolvent."
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Old 12-08-2018, 02:37 AM   #184
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In World First, Luxembourg to Make All Public Transportation Free
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:57 AM   #185
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In the aftermath of California's wildfires, homeowners who live in fire-prone areas have struggled to renew their insurance policies with companies that cannot, or refuse to, pay. Now, a Central Valley company has gone out of business after failing to pay out claims to the thousands of people who lost their homes in the Camp fire.
I wondered about their insurance coverage.

I saw big insurance collect premiums for 35 years, and when hurricane Andrew hit South Florida, they ran like cockroaches when the lights come on.

It's a mini west coast A.I.G.

FEMA has The National Flood Insurance Program, for private and public properties in areas where private insurance companies won't cover. That program has lost a lot of taxpayer money. But it provides coverage.

I doubt FEMA has a program like that for forest fire victims.

Maybe FEMA should offer climate change insurance.
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:42 AM   #186
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I saw big insurance collect premiums for 35 years, and when hurricane Andrew hit South Florida, they ran like cockroaches when the lights come on.

FEMA has The National Flood Insurance Program, for private and public properties in areas where private insurance companies won't cover. That program has lost a lot of taxpayer money. But it provides coverage.

I doubt FEMA has a program like that for forest fire victims.
Ran like cockroaches? I guess you didn't realize that insurance companies have to make money. They can't operate on a $Trillion annual debt like FEMA.

After the Feds began to underwrite flood insurance, people began to build houses where they never should have in the first place. Perhaps the insurance industry, through higher premiums, can enact needed changes. People should not build wood houses in drought-affected forests subjected to Santa Anna winds.
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:51 AM   #187
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Ran like cockroaches? I guess you didn't realize that insurance companies have to make money. They can't operate on a $Trillion annual debt like FEMA.

After the Feds began to underwrite flood insurance, people began to build houses where they never should have in the first place. Perhaps the insurance industry, through higher premiums, can enact needed changes. People should not build wood houses in drought-affected forests subjected to Santa Anna winds.
The insurance companies use the very best mathematicians to calculate risk, and sell insurance in a diversified way to also reduce risk. The problem with their calculations is that the climate is changing, and therefore the risk is also changing. These storms, droughts, fires, floods, are all bigger and much more destructive than the historical records would suggest.

So whereas the President is denying climate change so that FEMA and other entities could deny culpability and financial responsibility. The insurance companies are reacting quite differently. At Katrina they tried to deny coverage claiming the flooded regions were not due to the hurricane. Watch their ads, they talk about how many 100 year storms we have had