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Old 12-07-2019, 09:52 AM   #1
UntoHim
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Default LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Church

New informative website/blog concerning the Local Church of Witness Lee

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Old 12-07-2019, 05:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

It looks like a lot of time was spent on this site, and I think it will be very informative to those who come across it.
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Old 12-08-2019, 03:30 AM   #3
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

The site owner comes right out and identifies himself, which I found quite shocking. If he has any vulnerabilities at all, DCP will immediately swoop in to exploit them. Perhaps he is unaware of the dangers he faces.

Perhaps this exposes my suspicious nature towards those who regularly abuse their power, but how else do we explain the Casteel tragedy?
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Old 12-08-2019, 05:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

I've amazed that the domain name "thelordsrecovery.org" was available! I too was impressed that he came right out and IDed himself and gave his story.

I must also confess that I'm still surprised a little when people strongly use the word "cult" in connection with the LC, as this brother does. But reading this on his "About" page makes it pretty clear:

Quote:
The Recovery baited me with Jesus, the Bible, and talk of oneness of the church by means of the one Spirit of God. Then they started switching our devotion over to a man named Witness Lee, following him and his teachings only. Our “oneness” had nothing to do with God keeping us one; it was about Witness Lee.

I left the Recovery in 2017 for a few months, troubled by the clear deification of this man Witness Lee, but I eventually went back because I feared all of the discipline from God that the Recovery had convinced me was biblical.
The Lee deification wasn't so apparent to me in Berkeley in the 70s, or Columbus in the 80s. But I saw this firsthand when I visited the LC in Tacoma a few years ago, that is, Lee worship had replaced the fresh experience and testifying of Christ. (and I should also say that the fear of leaving the LC was starting to be instilled in us even back in the 70s)
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:30 AM   #5
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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Originally Posted by thelordsrecovery.org
It conditions its members into legalism. For example, a special elder called a “blended brother”, a speaker from the pulpit at a major national conference for the Recovery, says not to wear worldly clothing. That speaker is wearing a tie in a room that requires all men to wear a tie, obviously implying ties are somehow not worldly.
Good point, here. Ill-defined and arbitrarily-applied terms like "worldly" versus "proper" become levers for control. But no one questions, even if it begins to strain at absurdity, because no one wants to be "negative".
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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Good point, here. Ill-defined and arbitrarily-applied terms like "worldly" versus "proper" become levers for control. But no one questions, even if it begins to strain at absurdity, because no one wants to be "negative".
I am so thankful to be with a group that doesn't impose any such nonsense, either overtly or covertly!! (at any gathering we might have people with ties on and also those wearing shorts & flip flops . . .) Having this kind of external focus is off the mark of pursuing Christ alone.
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Old 12-09-2019, 04:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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Good point, here. Ill-defined and arbitrarily-applied terms like "worldly" versus "proper" become levers for control. But no one questions, even if it begins to strain at absurdity, because no one wants to be "negative".
It really is all about control. What makes matters even worse is that a lot of the rules are unspoken, so when someone does try to protest, there is gaslighting involved.

When I lived in a brothers house, there was a list of rules we had to agree to and sign: no secular music, no movie viewing, video games, etc. What was it that made any of these things wrong? I still don't know. But the rules were the rules. And I think in many cases (such as with myself), we were too naive to know any better, so they got away with calling some things worldly, other things spiritual. It was completely arbitrary.
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Old 12-10-2019, 11:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

New article called "The Lord's Recovery is Elitist" up on the site.

I thoroughly enjoy that he uses ministry quotes......hard to refute Witness Lee's words that are physically in print.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:25 AM   #9
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New article called "The Lord's Recovery is Elitist" up on the site.

I thoroughly enjoy that he uses ministry quotes......hard to refute Witness Lee's words that are physically in print.
Now this is what I'm waiting for like Nigel Tomes' articles with quotes for refutation!
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Old 12-11-2019, 03:03 AM   #10
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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When I lived in a brothers house, there was a list of rules we had to agree to and sign: no secular music, no movie viewing, video games, etc. What was it that made any of these things wrong? I still don't know. But the rules were the rules. And I think in many cases (such as with myself), we were too naive to know any better . . .
My how things have changed!

When I was in the brothers house, video games did not even exist, and one new brother had seen the movie "2001 Space Odyssey" 76 times (and counting).
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Old 12-11-2019, 06:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

FYI - I contacted the website owner, Jacob, and suggested he link to this forum on his resources page. He has now done so.
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Hey there! I'm Jacob Howard, the site owner and admin of thelordsrecovery.org.

I recently started a blog within the website, and the first blog entry is up on https://thelordsrecovery.org/2019/12...rch-romans-16/. Give it a read, and if you have any connections to current members, feel free to pass the site along!

One of the major manipulating factors that the Recovery uses to constrain its members into staying is that it offers only one right choice to members, one city being one church in name, the Recovery's genuine ground of oneness argument. This blog series attempts to address and debunk that.

Deconstructing these major and unorthodox doctrines by exposing their obvious logical fallacies can give members a fighting chance at being critical thinkers again, allowing them to look to God for truth rather than the Recovery. That's the aim of this blog series, and my prayer and hope is that it could empower members to leave and be free to serve the Lord alone.

God bless!
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Welcome to the LCD forum Jacob! I was the one that connected with you earlier regarding linking to this forum on your resource page.

The other thing they tell members is there is only one ministry, namely LSM. When the Lord got me past this erroneous thinking (Praise Him!!), I found many anointed authors/speakers out there and it opened up a whole new view of the body of Christ!
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Thanks for the welcome! Excited to be interfacing on here with the broader, established community.

I've named one blog "Deconstructing False Doctrine," currently with a specific blog series on One City, One Church (OCOC) doctrine. My hope is that OCOC will have several concise yet compelling expositions of clear logical fallacies that help members have "Aha!" moments.

One Ministry would most definitely be a blog series, but I'll make sure to keep each post short, sweet, and meaty.

There will be more blog series within Deconstructing False Doctrine, but OCOC is just the start. And with all of the resources available on here and help from the broader community, I think we're just getting started
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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One of the major manipulating factors that the Recovery uses to constrain its members into staying is that it offers only one right choice to members, one city being one church in name, the Recovery's genuine ground of oneness argument. This blog series attempts to address and debunk that.

Deconstructing these major and unorthodox doctrines by exposing their obvious logical fallacies can give members a fighting chance at being critical thinkers again, allowing them to look to God for truth rather than the Recovery. That's the aim of this blog series, and my prayer and hope is that it could empower members to leave and be free to serve the Lord alone.
It's great to have these types of resources available. The LC is able to get away with much of what it teaches because they have made a particular point to silence all opposing viewpoints.

The more content like this that is available on the internet, the greater likelihood that people in the LC will come across it and maybe even begin to question the LC.
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Old 01-01-2020, 04:29 AM   #16
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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It's great to have these types of resources available. The LC is able to get away with much of what it teaches because they have made a particular point to silence all opposing viewpoints.

The more content like this that is available on the internet, the greater likelihood that people in the LC will come across it and maybe even begin to question the LC.
I completely agree. The more reasoned and distinct voices that are heard, the better for those who are trying to see through the fog. It's a tremendous resource for those who are being recruited and need an objective voice, and for those currently enmeshed in LC-thought and trying to find a way out.

Two suggested topics:

1. Why in the RecV footnotes is the Psalmist imprecating his enemy in one passage supposedly typifying Christ defeating Satan, whilst elsewhere it's panned as "fallen" and "natural" not to love one's enemy and turn the other cheek? Was David then wrong at throwing a rock at Goliath? Lee's interpretation of Psalms makes no sense and should be brought into the light of objective discussion and analysis.
2. Why do they sell books by Mary McDonough ("God's Plan of Redemption") on the LSM website, right next to Nee and Lee, and lionize other "founding sisters" like Barber, Peace Wang, Ruth Lee (etc etc) and yet say that women can't teach with any authority in the LC? Why did women have such prominent "recovery" roles 100 years ago, but none today? It doesn't make any sense.

There are other examples as well, some quite glaring. And the more that questions like these are put before the reading public, the more that the illogic underlying the Witness Lee Mind Conditioning Programme gets exposed. And it should be exposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
Deconstructing these major and unorthodox doctrines by exposing their obvious logical fallacies can give members a fighting chance at being critical thinkers again, allowing them to look to God for truth rather than the Recovery. That's the aim of this blog series, and my prayer and hope is that it could empower members to leave and be free to serve the Lord alone.
The strength of the site is also that, like the Casteel Open Letter, it's reasonable and thoughtful. The LC is based on emotional, soul-warping neediness (the proverbial co-dependent and dysfunctional relation of "I need you to do this") and clear thought is both a goal and a way out. Scripture is written, and we all can think about what's written, not just repetitively shout slogans.
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Old 01-01-2020, 07:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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The strength of the site is also that, like the Casteel Open Letter, it's reasonable and thoughtful. The LC is based on emotional, soul-warping neediness (the proverbial co-dependent and dysfunctional relation of "I need you to do this") and clear thought is both a goal and a way out. Scripture is written, and we all can think about what's written, not just repetitively shout slogans.
And there is some real, critical back & forth between forum members. There are some very good "Bereans" on here who examine things in light of scripture . . . and don't let me get away with anything too wild. (and most of the time it is even done in love )
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Old 01-01-2020, 12:47 PM   #18
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Thanks Jacob for all your hard work and creativeness on LordsRecovery.Org! As far as I'm concerned, it will be a great information resource for current and former Local Church members, Christian apologists and leaders seeking information, concerned family and friends, and even the general public. Please feel free to "cross pollinate" LordsRecovery.Org with LocalChurchDiscussions.Com Of course you are also welcome to participate in our discussions here as much as your time and interest allow.
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Old 01-02-2020, 06:31 PM   #19
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You bet! It's my pleasure! I'm happy to be a part of helping others live their lives free of the control the Lord's Recovery. I'd love to jump into some conversations on here, and I still want to get a bit of my testimony out on here!
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Old 01-02-2020, 06:38 PM   #20
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It's great to have these types of resources available. The LC is able to get away with much of what it teaches because they have made a particular point to silence all opposing viewpoints.

The more content like this that is available on the internet, the greater likelihood that people in the LC will come across it and maybe even begin to question the LC.
@Freedom, I really think you're spot on. I think the Recovery's grip on information control within itself is loosening faster than ever because of the Internet. They've had much of their control through propaganda and fear-mongering. I love how we have the means to reach new members, fully immersed members, ex-members, and non-members alike with solid information. Truly amazing!
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Old 01-02-2020, 06:40 PM   #21
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I completely agree. The more reasoned and distinct voices that are heard, the better for those who are trying to see through the fog. It's a tremendous resource for those who are being recruited and need an objective voice, and for those currently enmeshed in LC-thought and trying to find a way out.

Two suggested topics...

...The strength of the site is also that, like the Casteel Open Letter, it's reasonable and thoughtful. The LC is based on emotional, soul-warping neediness (the proverbial co-dependent and dysfunctional relation of "I need you to do this") and clear thought is both a goal and a way out. Scripture is written, and we all can think about what's written, not just repetitively shout slogans.
Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming! I just put up another blog https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...-on-romans-16/, talking about how Witness Lee had no consistent arguments against Romans 16 and "one city, one church" doctrine. Praying and hoping it will help a member, new or fully immersed, to see through the gunk and get to the truth!
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Old 01-04-2020, 07:43 AM   #22
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming! I just put up another blog https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...-on-romans-16/, talking about how Witness Lee had no consistent arguments against Romans 16 and "one city, one church" doctrine. Praying and hoping it will help a member, new or fully immersed, to see through the gunk and get to the truth!
And thanks for your graciousness to listen to suggestions. Jesus promised, As one does to others (show grace by listening and considering), so others will do in return (show grace by paying attention). May we all have such hearts. Regarding Romans 16 and OCOC, your quote of Witness Lee is worth repeating.

Quote:
Witness Lee: The church in their house was the church in Rome. There were not two churches in Rome, one called the church in Rome and another which met in the house of Aquila and Prisca. The church in Rome simply met in the house of this couple, so there was a church in their house.
I'd add to your remarks, which were good (esp that of Cenchrea in Corinth), that the NT usage pattern shows 'ekklesia' fitting the previous scriptural context, that of the LXX Greek. "In the midst of the 'ekklesia' I will sing hymns of praise to you" ~Psa 22 etc. Ekklesia meant 'meeting' or 'gathering', so one could have multiple 'ekklesia' in one city. In the LC they do it, and label them 'meetings', like 'home meetings' and 'prayer meetings' and 'college-age meetings' and condemn everyone else who doesn't have their labeling system. It's subjectively biased, self-serving, and not based on logic logical at all. At it's core it's like there's an unhappy 6-year-old saying "I can do it, but you can't".

Acts 19:41 ~ "And with these words he dismissed the 'ekklesia'" - was this 'ekklesia' in Ephesus the Church in Ephesus? Of course not - it was a public gathering, which was threatening to become disorderly. So the town clerk dismissed the participants. Truth is, there are 'ekklesia' all over, in the NT view. Big cities can have many of them.

Another issue that could be raised is that in the LC, Watchman Nee is celebrated for using multiple sources, but his followers are effectively forbidden from copying this practice. I wrote this earlier:

Quote:
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"In many counselors is safety, and success", said Proverbs. Watchman Nee drew on this motif heavily, and his use of multiple sources was celebrated by Lee and other followers. Yet somehow with Nee, this adage was fulfilled and completed, and a new age had dawned? Somehow, after Nee, many counselors would only bring in confusion?

Does this make any sense? It makes no sense to me..
It really helps to show that we can critically and profitably examine concepts which conflict and contradict each other, and are non-sensical and irrational, and cause real human psychological distress. Being released from the grip of disjointed thinking is part of our journey home.
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Old 01-07-2020, 02:40 AM   #23
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Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming!
If I may be somewhat importune, may I suggest "God's economy" as an area worth consideration? Some of us on this forum have looked at it and concluded (surprise) that there's nothing there. Or little, at any rate.

And "God's economy" is perhaps the best way to see the Lee mind meld, other than OCOC and a few other sacred LC teachings. (Think the opposite of the Spock mind meld in Star Trek: in this case Lee's thoughts become your own).

Everyone in the LC knows that Paul wrote Timothy to remain in Ephesus and to tell certain ones not to teach things other than "God's economy" (RecV translation) which is in faith. But Paul didn't say what "God's economy" was other than to link it with faith. In the LC we got book after book on "God's economy". It was God dispensing Himself into man to make man God in life and nature. It was enjoying Christ as everything for the building up of the body. It was the NT believer enjoying grace. It was man being made in God's image, to contain Him, like a glove contains the hand. Like a soda bottle being made to contain soda, man was made to contain God. This "dispensing" was "God's economy".

But if you look at Paul and Barnabas in Acts 12:25, they came to Antioch when the "dispensing" in Jerusalem was completed (RecV translation; others say "ministry" or "ministration" or "service"), and that dispensing wasn't of the type alluded to above. When the brothers in Jerusalem told Paul to "remember the poor" (Galatians 2:10), he didn't say, "No, sorry, that's a dead work - I'm here to enjoy Christ on the proper ground". No, Paul replied that he was eager to do it. If you look at Corinthians and Romans he makes some mention of this remembrance, that folks are to lay aside something for the poor of Jerusalem. Then at the end of Acts he told the opposing ones that after many years he returned to Jerusalem, bringing alms for his people (24:17). And this fits with the Jerusalem church, which was "daily dispensing" (Acts 6:1) to the widows and orphans, as Jesus had taught, and the OT commanded the righteous to do. Take care of those who can't care for themselves. Perhaps this is the "God's economy" that Paul alluded to in the epistle to Timothy.

Instead we got the selfish, self-oriented "enjoying God", which was then ripe for manipulation. Jesus taught to care for the despised other, and your reward would be great in heaven. There are two separate possible versions of "God's economy" seen here (there may be others, of course). I'll go with second version, which seems to have more scriptural support.
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Old 01-07-2020, 04:27 AM   #24
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming! I just put up another blog https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...-on-romans-16/, talking about how Witness Lee had no consistent arguments against Romans 16 and "one city, one church" doctrine. Praying and hoping it will help a member, new or fully immersed, to see through the gunk and get to the truth!
JacobHoward in my study of this OCOC teaching in the New Testament, all of the apostles, except John in Revelation 2-3, failed to "see the vision." In fact, Paul was the worst offender. He obviously never got these naming conventions right. Nee and Lee would have had him quarantined for his "heresy."
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Old 01-07-2020, 04:47 AM   #25
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Thanks for the welcome! Excited to be interfacing on here with the broader, established community.

I've named one blog "Deconstructing False Doctrine," currently with a specific blog series on One City, One Church (OCOC) doctrine. My hope is that OCOC will have several concise yet compelling expositions of clear logical fallacies that help members have "Aha!" moments.

One Ministry would most definitely be a blog series, but I'll make sure to keep each post short, sweet, and meaty.

There will be more blog series within Deconstructing False Doctrine, but OCOC is just the start. And with all of the resources available on here and help from the broader community, I think we're just getting started
JacobHoward have you seen the "ConcernedBrothers" website? It popped up during the Midwest quarantines to rebut LSM and DCP which used their "a faithful word" (what a joke!) website.

In the last decade, Nigel Tomes also has written numerous papers, well-researched, and undermine many tenets of the Recovery. He also has a sub-forum here. Unfortunately, there is no table of contents with links to all of his papers. Since LSMers invested so much to go after him, one has to wonder just how much impact he has had on their rank and file. What LSM fears most is truth, truth reaching their people, which truth they label "poison."
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:50 AM   #26
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...at the end of Acts Paul told the opposing ones that after many years he returned to Jerusalem, bringing alms for his people (24:17). And this fits with the Jerusalem church, which was "daily dispensing" (6:1) to the widows and orphans, as Jesus had taught, and the OT commanded the righteous to do. Take care of those who can't care for themselves. Perhaps this is the "God's economy" that Paul alluded to in the epistle to Timothy..
OT commands

Psalm 41:1,2 For the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. Blessed is he who cares for the poor; the LORD will deliver him in the day of trouble. The LORD will protect and preserve him; He will bless him in the land and refuse to surrender him to the will of his foes.…

Deuteronomy 15:9-11 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought in your heart: “The seventh year, the year of release, is near,” so that you look upon your poor brother begrudgingly and give him nothing. He will cry out to the LORD against you, and you will be guilty of sin. Give generously to him, and do not let your heart be grieved when you do so. And because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything to which you put your hand. For there will never cease to be poor in the land; that is why I am commanding you to open wide your hand to your brother and to the poor and needy in your land.…

Proverbs 22:9 A generous man will be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.

Then you read Paul in 2 Cor 8 and 9, he goes into an extended riff on this. Like for most of 2 chapters. Gee, I wonder why? And who is the donation for - Paul's family business? A new headquarters building for his ministry? No, for the poor. The focus of the epistolic text is consistent, and follows the commands of Jesus, who fulfilled the OT commands.

This looks more like God's economy to me. And if you say that I can't prove it, well, Lee's "proof" was that "the whole Bible shows just this one thing" then he did a cut-and-paste job with verses. Paul never said God's economy was what WL said it was. My version is most clearly given in Galatians 2:10 -- the leading ones told Paul to remember the poor, and he replied that he was eager to do it. And I find this theme consistently in the Bible from beginning to end, with Jesus as exemplar. Look at him going to the dispossessed, telling the disciples to find and help "the least of these my brothers", look at Zacchaeus saying, "See, the half of my goods I give to the poor" and Jesus' approval and blessing, and the clear pattern of alignment with this theme in Acts and the epistles, as I showed earlier.

2 Cor 9:7-9 Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things, at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written: “He has scattered abroad His gifts to the poor; His righteousness endures forever.”…
____________

But my main point here, is that the burden of proof is on Witness Lee to show that "God's economy" was what he said it was. Where does Paul or Jesus or anyone say "God's economy is this Processed Triune God and spiritual dispensing"? No, it was stitched together out of disparate pictures and types.

I only offer my alternative as a reply to one who says, "Well, what else could it possibly be?" It could be something like what I have briefly outlined. Or it could be something else. But there's no proof that it was what Lee said it was. And Lee's version was self-oriented, which makes me doubly suspicious. My version is more closely aligned with the great command "Love thy neighbor as thyself". As are all the examples which I cited above.
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Old 01-07-2020, 05:57 PM   #27
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Paul was a man of his word:

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-10.htm
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Old 01-08-2020, 02:37 AM   #28
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Paul was a man of his word:

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-10.htm
Yes, in addition to being "eager" to help the poor of Jerusalem in Galatians 2, we see his lengthy discourses in 2 Cor 8 and 9, and this section in Roman's 15:

25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem. 27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings. 28 So after I have completed this task and have made sure that they have received this contribution, I will go to Spain and visit you on the way. 29 I know that when I come to you, I will come in the full measure of the blessing of Christ.

And then you have his public declaration in Acts 24:17 that he'd returned bringing alms for his people. Paul was not merely a man of his word, but clearly believed that he was keeping the commands of the Lord, as did all the apostles. So why isn't that God's economy?

Conversely, how can the wordsmiths of Anaheim show us that their version of God's economy is instead the correct interpretation, versus this or any other? Other than that their version was perhaps more effective in luring naiive young people, or "good building material", versus actually going out and helping others who couldn't repay you in this age? Jesus taught that if you do this, your reward would be great in heaven.

Or is Jesus' word, and Paul and Peter and James and John's obedience to this word, merely a "low gospel" which has been superseded by abstractions culled from snippets here and there? Lee would give us things like 1 Corinthians 15:45 "b" - I just gave 5 verses from Romans 15, plus all those other verses. Read 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 sometime. It's spelled out in great detail what Paul is doing. Again, the money is not going for Paul or his cohort, or 'guanxi network' - it's going to the poor. Same thing with Peter and John in the first chapters of Acts, with Paul and Barnabas in Acts 12:25. It's a dispensing quite different from the one Witness Lee was presenting us.

It's something to consider. But in the LC, consideration wasn't encouraged. Instead, blind thoughtless obedience to the ministry was encouraged. So I'm presenting an alternative, if anyone is interested. And I'm glad to see folks like Jo Casteel and Jacob Howard publicly speaking up.
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Old 01-18-2020, 12:51 PM   #29
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Hi there, all! The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now available on thelordsrecovery.org.

https://thelordsrecovery.org/thread/...-conditions-1/
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:23 PM   #30
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The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now available..
Effective writing, powerfully constructed case. Clear, logical, concise, simple layout, moderate in tone, easy to follow. I read the whole thing in a few minutes. Great resource for the interested public.

And it fits my memory of the experience. You'd sit under this kind of speaking and get sucked in. Unless you actively resisted, you'd acquiesce and become elitist.
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Old 01-19-2020, 12:11 PM   #31
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Thanks for posting! As I read through it, I realized that this is not a display of love as conveyed in 1st Corinthians chapter 13. Love does not seek its own. Love is not puffed-up and doesn't think of itself in a way that exalts itself.

At the end of his life, Lee publicly confessed that love was the missing ingredient in The Recovery.

What does Jesus have to say? "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35)

What does Paul have to say? "If I do not have love, then I am nothing!" (1 Cor 13:2)
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Old 01-19-2020, 04:18 PM   #32
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At the end of his life, Lee publicly confessed that love was the missing ingredient in The Recovery.
But when he said this, we all were convinced that it was all our fault there was no love. Never, until I left the program, did I realize that most of us came into the Recovery with lots of love, and then slowly it was gone.
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Old 01-20-2020, 07:20 AM   #33
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But when he said this, we all were convinced that it was all our fault there was no love.
Well good - you took some accountability!
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:29 AM   #34
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Well good - you took some accountability!
Yes, we are accountable for the lack of love. But the reason for the lack of love was that it was drained away from us through the pesha (see the thread on truth) of Lee. And that pesha came to include others who join with him to carry that draining out, and now take Lee's place as the ones who are breaking trust.
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Old 01-20-2020, 09:02 AM   #35
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Yes, we are accountable for the lack of love. But the reason for the lack of love was that it was drained away from us through the pesha (see the thread on truth) of Lee. And that pesha came to include others who join with him to carry that draining out, and now take Lee's place as the ones who are breaking trust.
And of course leadership does have that accountability too, and according to scripture a higher accountability to lead us correctly. I am certainly aware how easily us sheep are influenced, especially when we're younger and less mature in our walk with the Lord.

Back then I had nothing to compare the LC with, other than the Free Methodist gathering I was saved through when a youngster. As someone recently (maybe on this forum) pointed out, they easiest way to tell if a stick is crooked is to place a straight one alongside it . . .
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Old 01-20-2020, 10:11 AM   #36
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Yes, we are accountable for the lack of love. But the reason for the lack of love was that it was drained away from us through the pesha (see the thread on truth) of Lee. And that pesha came to include others who join with him to carry that draining out, and now take Lee's place as the ones who are breaking trust.
I agree with this. Think about this destructive teaching by Lee that "natural love is honey, which spoils the offering." That alone killed brotherly love in many a brother and sister.

WL and Company taught us that the only "safe" love was our love for his ministry. Even our love for the Lord, based on His word, was risky. John Ingalls was condemned for following his own conscience. I was told that "coming back to the pure word of God" was a tactic of he enemy.

In part, Lee produced Laodicean arrogance and pride by demanding allegiance to him and his ministry, and to him and his ministry alone.
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Old 01-20-2020, 11:26 AM   #37
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I agree with this. Think about this destructive teaching by Lee that "natural love is honey, which spoils the offering."
That in itself is not really true - pure honey doesn't go bad!
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Old 01-20-2020, 01:03 PM   #38
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That in itself is not really true - pure honey doesn't go bad!
God promised Israel a land "flowing with milk and honey," and then Lee taught us it represented "natural love" which supposedly was bad.

Somebody needs to do some fact-checking on Lee's teachings.

This one gets 4 Pinocchios.

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Old 01-20-2020, 01:08 PM   #39
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God promised Israel a land "flowing with milk and honey," and then Lee taught us it represented "natural love" which supposedly was bad.

Somebody needs to do some fact-checking on Lee's teachings.

This one gets 4 Pinocchios.

"As I look around me, all I see is untapped potential! You've got potential (oh my . . .) You've got . . . " I couldn't resist!
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Old 01-20-2020, 08:40 PM   #40
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"As I look around me, all I see is untapped potential! You've got potential (oh my . . .) You've got . . . " I couldn't resist!

Reminds me of one of my first meetings in the LC, TC takes me up to meet Max Rapoport who said I was an "overcomer," with so much "potential."
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Old 01-21-2020, 01:38 AM   #41
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Reminds me of one of my first meetings in the LC, TC takes me up to meet Max Rapoport who said I was an "overcomer," with so much "potential."
Well you are an overcomer - you overcame the 12,000 messages posted mark on here!

Congrats! LL
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Old 01-21-2020, 02:34 AM   #42
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The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now posted
A point worth noting in the "us vs them" dynamic as often played out: in order to define "them" in this dynamic, the other party becomes a caricature. Here, one's presented with something called "Christianity" which supposedly has all these inferior aspects. But WL hadn't been active in "Christianity" for decades, and as JH notes, he lacked the near-omniscience needed to make such categorical assessments as bases of comparison.

Sometimes on this forum we make the same error of overgeneralization, and I've seen replies from the LC faithful, "That's not my experience!" But the LordsRecovery.org thread is using WL's own writings as basis of the critique in question, so it's a fairly solid position.
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:24 AM   #43
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What WL did was poison the minds of LC members towards their non-LC fellows, with stereotypes and prejudices, to make fellowship (interaction) more difficult.
Exactly! Took a decade for the Lord to, just a little bit, overcome that stigma in me!
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:04 AM   #44
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A point worth noting in the "us vs them" dynamic as often played out: in order to define "them" in this dynamic, the other party becomes a caricature. Here, one's presented with something called "Christianity" which supposedly has all these inferior aspects. But WL hadn't been active in "Christianity" for decades, and as JH notes, he lacked the near-omniscience needed to make such categorical assessments as bases of comparison.
I regularly watched WL compare the best of the Recovery to the worst of so-called Christianity.

Why no fair comparisons? Why not compare some newly baptized on-fire believer in Nowhereville to his profligate Office Manager, Philip Lee?
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Old 01-21-2020, 09:21 AM   #45
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I regularly watched WL compare the best of the Recovery to the worst of so-called Christianity.

Why no fair comparisons? Why not compare some newly baptized on-fire believer in Nowhereville to his profligate Office Manager, Philip Lee?
We were led by these constant and unfair comparisons to believe that the Recovery at its worst was equal to the best of fallen, compromised, "Babylon Christianity". Now, thanks to posters like Indiana finding out the "hidden history in the Lord's Recovery", the public has become aware of Daystar Motorhomes, Philip Lee as the Office, the "spiritual sisters' rebellion", the "Young Galileans affair" etc etc.

So now the common refrain is, "Hey, nobody's perfect. Every group has their issues. Why pick on us?"

Um, the incessant narrative for years was belittlement and superiority. Now the defense has become, "Everybody does it"? My, how the worm has turned.
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Old 01-21-2020, 09:53 AM   #46
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We were led by these constant and unfair comparisons to believe that the Recovery at its worst was equal to the best of fallen, compromised, "Babylon Christianity". Now, thanks to posters like Indiana finding out the "hidden history in the Lord's Recovery", the public has become aware of Daystar Motorhomes, Philip Lee as the Office, the "spiritual sisters' rebellion", the "Young Galileans affair" etc etc.

So now the common refrain is, "Hey, nobody's perfect. Every group has their issues. Why pick on us?"

Um, the incessant narrative for years was belittlement and superiority. Now the defense has become, "Everybody does it"? My, how the worm has turned.
As with former President Nixon, it's all about the coverup. Eh?

Everybody is entitled to a bad kid or two, but you don't put him in charge of your ministry. And when he screws your volunteers, you don't go kill the reporters.

Was this really too difficult for the consummate MOTA to understand? I seem to remember that he taught us not to do all the things that he did, because only Christianity behaves like that.

Like Nixon, obsessed with recording everything, he should have turned off the tape recorders.
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Old 01-21-2020, 10:11 AM   #47
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As with former President Nixon, it's all about the coverup. Eh?

Everybody is entitled to a bad kid or two, but you don't put him in charge of your ministry. And when he screws your volunteers, you don't go kill the reporters.

Was this really too difficult for the consummate MOTA to understand? I seem to remember that he taught us not to do all the things that he did, because only Christianity behaves like that.

Like Nixon, obsessed with recording everything, he should have turned off the tape recorders.
I think Lee was under some kind of pressure to act like an overcomer, since that was a big part of his ministry, and overcomers supposedly don't exhibit those faults. So pride is suspect here . . .
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Old 01-25-2020, 01:44 PM   #48
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Hey, everyone! Happy weekend!

I've just posted an entry in "Deconstructing False Doctrine" on Minister of the Age doctrine (MOTA). The first entry talks about what Witness Lee taught, how members reacted, and what the Bible actually says (https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...corinthians-3/).

Please consider sharing with your Recovery friends, and pray for them to leave!
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Old 01-26-2020, 08:07 AM   #49
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I've just posted an entry in "Deconstructing False Doctrine" on Minister of the Age doctrine (MOTA). The first entry talks about what Witness Lee taught, how members reacted, and what the Bible actually says (https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...corinthians-3/).
Not that you need my seal of approval, but good job. And "deconstructing" is a good word for the title. The whole thing is a construction, that needs to be worked down to its root. Because it's all built on the slenderest of reeds.

Another idea worth deconstructing: that we become God.

http://www.forthetruth.org/pdfs/02_02_a1.pdf

"We are mindful of the fact that many will react in dismay, perhaps in horror, to find themselves confronted with the assertion that in Christ and through God's complete salvation we who believe in Christ and are in Christ will become God in the limited sense posited here."

This limitation is stated as:

1. Without any essential change in the Godhead
2. Not the same as God in rank or position
3. Not as an object of worship

But supposedly we're becoming God in life and nature.

I noted the qualifier, the "limited sense" of being God. My cat is a member of my family, in a limited sense. It lives inside the house and eats food. By the same token, my cat is like my dog in that both have 4 legs, a tail, and fur. I'm like the Queen Mary in a limited sense, that we both can float in the ocean.

But as suggested above, "being like" something and becoming that something are two different ontological propositions. Seems to me that this is especially true when the two things compared are fallen, created, sinful human beings and sinless Creator. I mean, yes we are "like God" in some limited sense, but those very limitations make "becoming God" an empty phrase. Too many qualifiers, all imposed by the same fallen, finite human being, on who and what God is (and is not). How can we in our ignorance - we see, but darkly, said Paul - define "God" sufficiently in order to place ourselves as "God" in some limited capacity? Does God by definition have these constraints we place on ourselves?

I'm not sure all this asserting and positing is within our purview, unless our purview is to publish documents, and sell them. Beyond generating revenue and filling sermon time I'm not sure what utility it really serves.

My reaction isn't horror nor dismay, but simply a critique, or disagreement, a la LSM's own "Affirmation and Critique". I don't think the idea makes much sense, or has much value.

Put differently, what's the point of pushing conjecture that you state will elicit horror and/or dismay among many of your readers? Will the conceptual value of "becoming God" really be a spur to their human living, any more than "We all have to stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ, to give account of whatever we've done"? How is an idea with such tenuous and debatable logic going to bring us all somewhere good?
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Old 01-27-2020, 05:50 PM   #50
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If we are becoming 'God in life and nature', then why are those persons still subject to the conditions of the fall... such as ageing, disease and death. These things would be eliminated, surely, alongside the idea that we will shed our sinfulness by being 'constituted' with God's being.

The other curses of the fall should drop away too, should they not? Also the miracle working power that Jesus and the apostles had. Maybe some Shekinah Glory that was evident on the face of Moses and others might be evident on their faces too? Observable to those in their presence?

Anyway, maybe LC has a provision to account for the limitations of 'becoming God in life and nature but not the Godhead' but I haven't heard of them. Or maybe they just haven't developed their theory further enough to wonder about these logical potential outworkings?
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:20 AM   #51
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If we are becoming 'God in life and nature', then why are those persons still subject to the conditions of the fall... such as ageing, disease and death. These things would be eliminated, surely, alongside the idea that we will shed our sinfulness by being 'constituted' with God's being.

The other curses of the fall should drop away too, should they not? Also the miracle working power that Jesus and the apostles had. Maybe some Shekinah Glory that was evident on the face of Moses and others might be evident on their faces too? Observable to those in their presence?

Anyway, maybe LC has a provision to account for the limitations of 'becoming God in life and nature but not the Godhead' but I haven't heard of them. Or maybe they just haven't developed their theory further enough to wonder about these logical potential outworkings?
I'm not siding with WL here, but this doesn't appear to be a good argument! That is, there are many things of Christ in us that are not manifested yet (in this current life). That is why we need faith, right? If all the promises were apparent and seen, then there would be no need for faith and hope.
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:43 AM   #52
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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I'm not siding with WL here, but this doesn't appear to be a good argument! That is, there are many things of Christ in us that are not manifested yet (in this current life). That's why we need faith, right? If all the promises were apparent and seen, then there would be no need for faith and hope.
Jesus told them repeatedly, "Believe because of the works". There should be some issue. ~John 10:25; 37-38; 14:9-11

In the LC "grace on steroids" programme, all you had to do was come to meetings, meetings, meetings, say "amen" when the brother speaks, and you will "absorb God" and leave with "more God" than when you came in. I heard this right from the current Blendeds, standing on the dais, years ago.

And although it seems I'm veering on a tangent, it's related to the MOTA doctrine Jacob Howard raised, because if MOTA says you're becoming God by continually sitting in a chair, well there it is. Right? I mean, if MOTA has spoken, that's now the "present truth" and "the vision of the age".
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Old 02-11-2020, 12:03 PM   #53
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Hey there, everyone!

Finally got the first blog up for deconstructing the thousand-year discipline (TYD) doctrine (https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/02...ew-812-part-1/).

It digs into a singular, baseless assertion from Witness Lee, with which he uses as evidence for TYD. There's much more to come in this series!

After digging into the Scriptures and combing through commentaries, it's never been more crystal clear to me that TYD is biblically unfounded. There's no special "believers-only" condemnation after this life. I'm excited to deconstruct TYD further.

Have a great afternoon!
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Old 02-11-2020, 02:25 PM   #54
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I can't wait to read your findings, Jacob. This was a question I have had since coming out of the local church. I just don't believe it is scriptural. The church is not appointed to wrath. I was threatened with 1,000 year separation from God twice by LCers. But I see the opposite promise to believers in the word. Nothing can remove us from His hand.
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Old 02-12-2020, 05:33 AM   #55
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Hey there, everyone!

Finally got the first blog up for deconstructing the thousand-year discipline (TYD) doctrine (https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/02...ew-812-part-1/).

It digs into a singular, baseless assertion from Witness Lee, with which he uses as evidence for TYD. There's much more to come in this series!

After digging into the Scriptures and combing through commentaries, it's never been more crystal clear to me that TYD is biblically unfounded. There's no special "believers-only" condemnation after this life. I'm excited to deconstruct TYD further.

Have a great afternoon!
That was an excellent and simple presentation of the Matthew 8:10-12 passage! I think the point is clearly made here that "the sons of the kingdom" who will be "thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" are the disbelieving Jews. Thank you!

This topic had been discussed on a forum thread last year (I think) and my takeaway was the whole TYD of WL was not well founded, and this passage in Matthew 8 couldn't be clearer. WL advocated rewards and severe punishment (outer darkness) for believers, but my thinking is it is more about rewards or the loss thereof related to our works (not connected to eternal salvation) rather than "punishment." I assume you will also be touching on the matter of rewards and potential loss for believers, right?
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Old 02-12-2020, 08:19 AM   #56
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I assume you will also be touching on the matter of rewards and potential loss for believers, right?
Most definitely! These blogs have been pretty difficult for me because I want to write forever, without conciseness, ha! I want to debunk an entire doctrine in one long, unorganized post, but then I realize the value in making each point abundantly clear and sufficiently researched, concise.

I most definitely want to get into suffering loss; I've been appreciating coming back to the Word for all of this. 1 Corinthians 3 has been on repeat for me! I think the first goal I have in mind is proving that "suffering loss" is not TYD, and then it would be very beneficial to talk about what that could be.

My personal belief is that (with help from the Amplified Version of the Bible), "suffering loss" is either referring to losing what you built (your deeds) in your lifetime or the reward that you would've earned from those works had your building withstood the fire (the day of judgement's testing). If there are several schools of thought around one particular teaching, all with validly biblical foundations, I'd like to present those as well.
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Old 06-15-2020, 08:53 AM   #57
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I believe the Recovery has a third testament of the Bible RM (Recovery Ministry), what Recovees refer to as "the ministry." I encourage readers here to consider my arguments. I've had to repent of RM specifically, and it's very freeing to let the Bible be the lens through which I view my Christian life rather than RM!

https://thelordsrecovery.org/33-the-...f-the-bible-1/
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Old 06-15-2020, 09:08 AM   #58
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I believe the Recovery has a third testament of the Bible RM (Recovery Ministry), what Recovees refer to as "the ministry." I encourage readers here to consider my arguments. I've had to repent of RM specifically, and it's very freeing to let the Bible be the lens through which I view my Christian life rather than RM!

https://thelordsrecovery.org/33-the-...f-the-bible-1/
Jacob, I was in the Midwest region of the Recovery which usually placed more emphasis on the Bible, and tended to react more slowly to the constant winds and waves of teachings emanating from Anaheim. But as you probably know, we got "quarantined" and in the ensuing chaos, many went in diverse directions.

At the time, I was mildly shocked to see how Lee's writings were used to condemn many of our incidental practices, robbing us of the liberty of the Spirit. This made it abundantly clear that to the Recovery leaders, the writings of Lee superseded the teachings of scripture. So, even though they don't have an official 3rd book of the Bible, in effect they do. One glaring example is their constant use of lawsuits. (I Cor 6)
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Old 06-24-2020, 09:10 AM   #59
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Just posted about the "O Lord Three Times" false gospel of Witness Lee on thelordsrecovery.org. It's one more heretical doctrine of the Recovery that proves it's a Christian cult.

This false gospel should be easy to repent of as a Christian, but for a member to repent of this false gospel would probably mean that member repenting of Witness Lee being the Minister of the Age. I hope and pray this gets into the right hands and leads members to question what they're doing in the Recovery!

https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/06...f-witness-lee/
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Old 06-24-2020, 09:47 AM   #60
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Just posted about the "O Lord Three Times" false gospel of Witness Lee on thelordsrecovery.org. It's one more heretical doctrine of the Recovery that proves it's a Christian cult.

This false gospel should be easy to repent of as a Christian, but for a member to repent of this false gospel would probably mean that member repenting of Witness Lee being the Minister of the Age. I hope and pray this gets into the right hands and leads members to question what they're doing in the Recovery!

https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/06...f-witness-lee/
Read the new post. One observation is you say that they ask others to repeat, "Oh Lord." From my experience it was always, "Oh Lord Jesus." Is there a reason you truncated this?
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Old 06-24-2020, 12:09 PM   #61
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Read the new post. One observation is you say that they ask others to repeat, "Oh Lord." From my experience it was always, "Oh Lord Jesus." Is there a reason you truncated this?
Years back WL gave some message in LA about simply being in the spirit by saying 5 words. Then, according to the story, he asked the Lord "what 5 words?" He was inspired to say, "Oh Lord Jesus, Amen, Hallelujah." It was an inspirational, rather than theological, message. It was encouraging to many of the brothers and sisters, especially during the "Jesus Movement" when so many were leaving the archaic traditions of denominational Christianity with rote responses and silent prayers.

Then, as with all things recovery, the 5-word saying got formalized into a mechanized means of salvation. Initially what had begun in faith by the Spirit became vain babbling to be mouthed rather than spoken from the heart. Nearly all things Recovery were such. Pray-reading was also this way -- initially praying Bible verses eventually becoming robotic shouted repetition for a few cheap "amens."

This pattern sadly matched that of the Galatians, "are you so foolish, having begun by the spirit, are you now perfected by the flesh." (3.3)

If you can understand this phenomena, then you can readily ascertain why so many gifted brothers and sisters once came this way, only to later leave. For the most part the recovery began well, very well for many, only to end badly, and very badly for most.
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Old 06-24-2020, 12:19 PM   #62
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Then, as with all things recovery, the 5-word saying got formalized into a mechanized means of salvation. Initially what had begun in faith by the Spirit became vain babbling to be mouthed rather than spoken from the heart. Nearly all things Recovery were such. Pray-reading was also this way -- initially praying Bible verses eventually becoming robotic shouted repetition for a few cheap "amens."
So did "Oh Lord Jesus" get shortened to just "Oh Lord" later? When I was around it was "Oh Lord Jesus."
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Old 06-24-2020, 12:27 PM   #63
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So did "Oh Lord Jesus" get shortened to just "Oh Lord" later? When I was around it was "Oh Lord Jesus."
"Oh Lord Jesus" is still used in practice, but that's not what my blog post was about.

My blog post addresses the O Lord Three Times false gospel. If you read the quote I pulled at the very beginning of the post, Witness Lee never says "Jesus." He just says "O Lord."
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Old 06-25-2020, 10:30 AM   #64
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Default Jacob Howard: O Lord Three Times - The False Gospel of Witness Lee


On the one hand, when Recovery members preach the gospel to outsiders, they can and do preach the gospel according to the gospel of the Bible, which is the gospel. I can speak to this from personal experience. But on the other hand, Recovery members sometimes preach a false gospel that cannot save.

One of those false gospels is the “O Lord Three Times” gospel:

We have seen that to reach the unbelievers, no preaching is necessary. If we help them to say “O Lord” three times, they will be saved. If they open the window, the air will get in. All they have to do is to open their mouth and say, “O Lord, O Lord.” Even if they have no intention of believing, still they will be caught. Regardless of whether they have the intention or not, as long as they open the window, the air will get in.
Witness Lee, The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches, Chapter 5, Section 2 (Emboldened Emphasis My Own)

This is a false gospel that cannot save. Since a false gospel does not come from the one true God, a false gospel does not serve God; it serves a false god; it serves nothing. The O Lord Three Times gospel has nothing to do with Jesus or God. To put His name on it is meaningless. It is a false gospel preached by Witness Lee, serving a god that doesn’t exist.

To be clear, here are my direct contentions with Witness Lee’s O Lord Three Times gospel:
*1. To reach unbelievers, preaching is essential (Romans 10:14).
*2. Saying “O Lord” three times for salvation is a made up idea.
*3. Confessing the Lord’s name (which is Jesus, not just “Lord”) must be paired with belief (Romans 10:9-12).
*4 Saying “O Lord” three times does not open some mystical window in unsaved people. Again, this is made up.

The Bible: Believe and Confess

Take a look at Romans 10:9-12 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. (ESV)

Romans 10:9 makes it clear that you will be saved if you do the following two things:
*1. Confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord
*2. and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.

Romans 10:10 gives us the reason for those two things being qualifiers for being saved:
*1 The heart is the internal part of you with which you believe God raised Jesus from the dead and are thus justified
*2 and the mouth is the external part of you which you use to confess Jesus as Lord and are saved!

Then Romans 10:11-12, once again, talks about belief with the heart and confession with the mouth:
*1. Romans 10:11 talks about those who believe not being put to shame and *2. Romans 10:12 talks about the Lord being the same Lord of all who call upon Him.

Finally, Romans 10:13 says:
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

If this last verse is taken out of context, someone might conclude that an unsaved person just needs to call Jesus’ name to be saved. But if you read the preceding verses, it’s obvious that calling on Jesus’ name is confessing His name, which is just one part of salvation.

The Bible: Preaching and Hearing Required Romans 10:14 says the following:

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?

Romans 10:14 (ESV)
Witness Lee’s O Lord Three Times gospel asserts that no preaching is necessary. The Bible asserts that it is:
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
Romans 10:17 (ESV)

The Bible tells us that faith comes from hearing through the word of Christ, that an unsaved person cannot believe until they’ve heard the gospel, that an unsaved person cannot hear the gospel unless someone preaches it.

Conclusion: O Lord Three Times is a False Gospel

Leading an unsaved person to say “O Lord” three times will do nothing. It has no biblical standing, and it is a false gospel that does not come from God. Unless the Recovery as a movement repents of this gospel, the O Lord Three Times false gospel of Witness Lee is just another heretical doctrine within the Recovery that proves it is a Christian cult.
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Old 06-25-2020, 11:38 AM   #65
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Quite frankly, I think that the LC has this kind of teaching because they want some sort of way to filter people out who won't follow directions.

The thing about the gospel is that it requires an individual response. The LC is not a group that values individuality, so I don't think that they would want being a believer to be the sole membership criteria for their group.

When LC members meet someone and tell them that they can experience something by calling on the Lord three times, what they're really asking, is for that person to blindly do something that they might not fully understand. This often comes before it has been explained to them what they're doing or why they're doing it. The type of people who would agree to do so without pushing back at all are the ones that the LC wants.
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Old 06-25-2020, 01:04 PM   #66
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Default Re: Jacob Howard: O Lord Three Times - The False Gospel of Witness Lee

I know this was taught and is also in print, but my experience (and it's just that, my personal experience) is that this is not a "prevalent" teaching that has seeped all through the LC. The fulltime serving ones who are on the college campuses don't go around just trying to get people to call "Oh Lord". That's not what the serving ones do and it's not what they tell the college students to do either. They teach the "sinners prayer" on the back of the Mystery of Human Life that involves repentance and confession of sin and belief. This is addressed at the beginning of the article where he acknowledges that the gospel is actually preached in the LC, and from what I've seen, typical gospel preaching is much more common than the "call 3x" gospel preaching.

I think the call 3x teaching is one of those things they should take out of print, and there may be some fanatics inside who will totally espouse this teaching, but in general I don't think most live by it.

I may be wrong though.
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Old 06-25-2020, 01:37 PM   #67
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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"Oh Lord Jesus" is still used in practice, but that's not what my blog post was about.

My blog post addresses the O Lord Three Times false gospel. If you read the quote I pulled at the very beginning of the post, Witness Lee never says "Jesus." He just says "O Lord."
Okay, thanks. As UntoHim posted in a new thread about this same teaching, I can see more clearly what you are addressing. I, as others have pointed out, did not experience this specific thing in the LC. Some localities may have embraced this, but where I was (Berkeley in mid-70s & Columbus in the 80s) I wasn't aware of this teaching or practice.

Saying "Oh Lord" three times does not sound like it would be effective toward genuine regeneration, because the believing heart is not necessarily in that, right? Plus, if "Jesus" is dropped from this calling, it could be the person thought perhaps they were calling on "Lord Krishna!"

To be sure, there is salvation in the name of Jesus - calling on the name of the Lord Jesus to be saved is definitely scriptural. And I agree a belief needs to accompany that calling (but I think even the believing is put there by the Holy Spirit who is convicting that person).
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Old 06-25-2020, 02:30 PM   #68
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I'm glad to hear that Trapped! I would image that the practice does vary from region to region/locality to locality. My understanding is that the full-timers/serving ones are also instructed not to mention the name "Brother Lee" to new ones at the start of recruitment. Of course the very first "real" Local Church meeting they go to they will hear that name big time, and see his name on every book, etc.

I can tell you that the things that Jacob has posted were absolutely practiced in the Local Churches in So.Calif in the 70s and 80s at just about every one of the hundreds of gospel meetings I attended. Witness Lee taught that simply calling on the Lord would get a person saved. This is what he taught and this is what we practiced for many years.
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Old 06-25-2020, 04:25 PM   #69
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I think the call 3x teaching is one of those things they should take out of print, and there may be some fanatics inside who will totally espouse this teaching, but in general I don't think most live by it.

I may be wrong though.
I don't know how things were in other localities, but where I was there was quite a lot of pressure for us to preach the gospel. They would always tell us though that we shouldn't waste time with people who might come across as argumentative or people who had to many questions. So that kind of pushed us in the direction of trying to find people who we could get to do things like call on the Lord three times. I don't even know if that was intentional or not. It was just more of the parameters that we were expected to operate under, and I don't think any of us really questioned it.
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Old 06-25-2020, 07:57 PM   #70
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I'm glad to hear that Trapped! I would image that the practice does vary from region to region/locality to locality. My understanding is that the full-timers/serving ones are also instructed not to mention the name "Brother Lee" to new ones at the start of recruitment. Of course the very first "real" Local Church meeting they go to they will hear that name big time, and see his name on every book, etc.

I can tell you that the things that Jacob has posted were absolutely practiced in the Local Churches in So.Calif in the 70s and 80s at just about every one of the hundreds of gospel meetings I attended. Witness Lee taught that simply calling on the Lord would get a person saved. This is what he taught and this is what we practiced for many years.
-
Okay, and are we talking about calling on the Lord as "Oh Lord" or "Oh Lord Jesus, come into me"? Or do you see them as the exact same thing? Calling on the name of the Lord to be saved is scriptural, plain and simple, right? (and, of course, we're not talking about the "Oh Looord Jeezus" chanting thing, as has been often pointed out)

And yes, belief must be there, but doesn't the Spirit supply even that to the person?
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Old 06-25-2020, 09:16 PM   #71
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Sons to Glory! Could you please point me to the verse that states that "calling on the Lord" means verbalizing "Oh Lord" or "Oh Lord Jesus".
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:05 AM   #72
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Sons to Glory! Could you please point me to the verse that states that "calling on the Lord" means verbalizing "Oh Lord" or "Oh Lord Jesus".
-
This is getting crazy.

SonsToGlory, why do you think the Lord's name is Jesus?

What were you thinking?
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:26 AM   #73
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Sons to Glory! Could you please point me to the verse that states that "calling on the Lord" means verbalizing "Oh Lord" or "Oh Lord Jesus".
-
riiiiggghhttt, you see "calling" actually means to remain mute, to think about using your voice, and remaining silent.

AND

"on the Lord",.... actually does NOT mean saying "Oh Lord", neither, "Oh Lord Jesus" NO! You can never be saved that way. Calling on the name of the Lord actually means to think about a name that is not the Lord nor Jesus. And you cannot say "Oh", definately, those who say "Oh" will be condemned.

-- WL "...the New Testament is comprised of 27 books...."
-- Local Church Discussions fanatics....."heresy, it´s twenty seven books!!!!"
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Old 06-26-2020, 08:26 AM   #74
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Here's an article I'd like everyone's thoughts on, as it seems to encapsulate the argument at least somewhat: Acts 2:21 - Calling on the Lord's Name

And here's the passage of Stephen being stoned - he was crying out to the Lord in an audible voice: "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.'” Acts 7:59-60 I know this isn't regarding initial salvation, but wasn't he calling on His Savior . . . to save & forgive?

And isn't there a verse in Acts that says they found and persecuted Christians by those calling on the Lord? (I can't find this verse now - perhaps somebody can tell us where it is . . . unless I imagined it, then please correct me.)
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Old 06-26-2020, 11:03 AM   #75
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Here's an article I'd like everyone's thoughts on, as it seems to encapsulate the argument at least somewhat: Acts 2:21 - Calling on the Lord's Name

And here's the passage of Stephen being stoned - he was crying out to the Lord in an audible voice: "While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.' Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.'” Acts 7:59-60 I know this isn't regarding initial salvation, but wasn't he calling on His Savior . . . to save & forgive?

And isn't there a verse in Acts that says they found and persecuted Christians by those calling on the Lord? (I can't find this verse now - perhaps somebody can tell us where it is . . . unless I imagined it, then please correct me.)
No, no, don´t you know that there was another Jesus, who was called Justus (Col. 4:11)?? Surely he was calling on that one.
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:32 PM   #76
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Thanks for the article Sons to Glory! Unlike Witness Lee, this fellow actually lays out some scriptural references to back up his interpretations. Not sure how good a job he did, but at least he didn't just declare "This is what this means because I said so!".

Ok Raptor and Ohio, since I'm such a nice guy, I'll widen the playing field for you. Witness Lee claimed that he was "recovering" so many of the original teachings and practices of the New Testament. One of them was "calling on the Lord"...and not just any ole calling on the Lord...it was the recovery of verbalizing "Oh Lord Jesus". The louder the better. The more times the better.

Can you please point us to where any Christians have practiced this particular brand of calling on the Lord...verbalizing "Oh Lord Jesus"? You have about 2,000 years to sort through. Pick a year. Pick an era. Pick a place. Surely if this is a "recovered" practice then surely some other Christians have practiced this type of calling on the Lord by verbalizing "Oh Lord Jesus". And please spare us all the histrionics and false indignation. Simply point to a verse or verses or any written record of Christians practicing calling "Oh Lord Jesus" throughout history.
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Old 06-26-2020, 12:54 PM   #77
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Raptor and Ohio. Take a deep breath. Breath in. Breath out. There ya go!

Now, could you please show me the verse that says that "calling on the Lord" is "oh Lord" or "oh Lord Jesus"?

Oh, and if you don't want to be called a Witness Lee fanatic, then I suggest you don't call others Local Church Discussions fanatics. Understand?

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Bro, if you called me a "Witness Lee fanatic," all of my friends and family would laugh at you, "Huh, do you know who he is?"
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Old 06-26-2020, 01:45 PM   #78
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Thanks for the article Sons to Glory! Unlike Witness Lee, this fellow actually lays out some scriptural references to back up his interpretations. Not sure how good a job he did, but at least he didn't just declare "This is what this means because I said so!".

Ok Raptor and Ohio, since I'm such a nice guy, I'll widen the playing field for you. Witness Lee claimed that he was "recovering" so many of the original teachings and practices of the New Testament. One of them was "calling on the Lord"...and not just any ole calling on the Lord...it was the recovery of verbalizing "Oh Lord Jesus". The louder the better. The more times the better.

Can you please point us to where any Christians have practiced this particular brand of calling on the Lord...verbalizing "Oh Lord Jesus"? You have about 2,000 years to sort through. Pick a year. Pick an era. Pick a place. Surely if this is a "recovered" practice then surely some other Christians have practiced this type of calling on the Lord by verbalizing "Oh Lord Jesus".
And please spare us all the histrionics and false indignation. Simply point to a verse or verses or any written record of Christians practicing calling "Oh Lord Jesus" throughout history.
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Ok, if you are learning what "calling on the Lord" is, here is a good start:

https://www.gotquestions.org/call-up...-the-Lord.html

"To call on the name of the Lord is to invoke His proper name “in audible and social prayer and praise” (Albert Barnes)."
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Old 06-26-2020, 02:49 PM   #79
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Very good article Raptor! The best one that I've ever seen.

Still looking for the "Oh Lord Jesus" though

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Old 06-26-2020, 03:23 PM   #80
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Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

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Very good article Raptor! The best one that I've ever seen.

Still looking for the "Oh Lord Jesus" though

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Maybe just drop the "Oh" part . . .
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Old 06-26-2020, 04:28 PM   #81
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Unto, I'm a little lost. Is your question related to the "Oh" part of "Oh Lord/Jesus?"

If someone says "call your mom to dinner".....most people would yell "MOM!" If someone says "call on [so-and-so] to get over here".....most people would audibly vocalize "so-and-so"!

Calling on the Lord seems to involve, just logically, reasonably, grammatically, using the basic meaning of language, "Lord!"

This seems true whether there is a verse that explicitly says "they began to call on the Lord, e.g. "Oh Lord", thus saith the prophet" or not.

I think the format (the explicit words used) of "Oh Lord" or "Oh Lord Jesus" as taught by WL is Biblical, but the way WL wielded it (call 3x and get saved, turning it into a rote mantra rather than genuine interaction) is not.

Thanks for your story about what was taught in many meetings in the 70s and 80s. I'd never heard that explicitly before. Crazy.
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Old 06-26-2020, 07:45 PM   #82
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I do not problem with "oh". Of course I have no problem with "Lord". Of course I have no problem with "Jesus".

I do have a problem with the "calling on the Lord" as it is taught and practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee. When I have inquired with a number of our dear brothers here they have always claimed "this is not the kind of calling on the Lord we are talking about!" I have then inquired "Ok, could you please explain to me how the calling on Lord you practice is different". I have never got a straight answer to this day. I have not been a regular LC member for well over 20 years, but I have occasionally attended a regional conference meeting, and have witnessed the same kind of teaching and practice as back in the 70s and 80s.

So I'll ask again. Those of you who still practice "calling on the Lord", could you please tell me how it differs from what is practiced in the Local Church? Please be as practical as you can.
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Old 06-26-2020, 09:46 PM   #83
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So I'll ask again. Those of you who still practice "calling on the Lord", could you please tell me how it differs from what is practiced in the Local Church? Please be as practical as you can.
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Calling on the Lord is practiced in a few different ways in the LC, which I vaguely touched upon in my last post.

"Oh Lord Jesus" is a very common way they begin to pray: "Oh Lord Jesus, we love You. Lord Jesus, thank you for this time" etc.

I still do that myself. Addressing the Lord in prayer. "Lord Jesus, I don't know what to do. Direct my path."

But they also practice at least three other ways that I don't agree with:

1. The repetitive 7th inning stretch type calling: "Let's call on the Lord 5 times" which to me is just like doing jumping jacks. stand up, pump arm, yell out, repeat 5 times. Both are to get people out of their seats, to "get the blood pumping" and to wake people up. I think I would almost consider this an instance of taking His name in vain, because it's not giving it due honor, but simply using it as a tool rather than in recognition there is a Person behind it.

I am not totally sure because I haven't watched the whole thing, but I think this particular practice is also used in instances, say, where LSM holds a kangaroo court, and then gets everyone out of their seat to call on the Lord together, which is simply a form of group control to unify the whole room together in a common action. It produces implied agreement with whatever was just spoken. Bad news all around.

2. They also call on the Lord to shut people up or to express disgust when looking down their noses at someone. This is also using His name in vain, IMO.

3. They also, as the last spate of posts covered, teach people to call on the Lord 3x as an effective form of salvation.

All of these use the exact same three words, but only differ in volume, tone, context, and, well, "heart" to put it one way. Hard to convey those particular nuances over a forum. My calling on the Lord is like the first one, in prayer, but not like the numbered 3.
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:17 AM   #84
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So I'll ask again. Those of you who still practice "calling on the Lord", could you please tell me how it differs from what is practiced in the Local Church? Please be as practical as you can.
I certainly have answered this many times! And I think at one point you even acknowledged my response and affirmed something like, "Okay, now we're getting somewhere!" Did I imagine this or did you forget, or am I out to lunch? (any of the three is a possibility)
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:43 AM   #85
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I certainly have answered this many times! And I think at one point you even acknowledged my response and affirmed something like, "Okay, now we're getting somewhere!" Did I imagine this or did you forget, or am I out to lunch? (any of the three is a possibility)
I gave up on this one. Obviously he wants a youtube of the practice so it can be critiqued, with obnoxious words like "Oh" and decibal levels included.

I said this many times -- the biggest issue is public performances. That alone breeds all of the undesirables. Didn't Paul once mention getting crazy with God all alone? I believe God loves all of our calling when coming from the heart!
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Old 06-27-2020, 07:46 AM   #86
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Well Sons to Glory! if you're out to lunch, then I'm out to lunch, dinner and a midnight snack to boot Yes, I do remember you posting a really good answer to this question. I think it's on another thread.

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All of these use the exact same three words, but only differ in volume, tone, context, and, well, "heart" to put it one way. Hard to convey those particular nuances over a forum. My calling on the Lord is like the first one, in prayer, but not like the numbered 3.
Thanks Trapped for bailing us out once again with your sensible post! I guess what my biggest problem with the "calling on the Lord" that is practiced in the Local Church is the "corporate" aspect. One clue that this kind of corporate practice is not scriptural and not of the Lord is the reaction that other genuine Christians have when hearing/experiencing this practice for the first time. In my observation and experience the overwhelming number of brothers and sisters have a negative reaction. The reactions go from "this is kind of weird and uncomfortable" all the way to "this sounds like a kind of Eastern chanting and I want out of here now!" and of course just about everything in between.
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Old 06-27-2020, 08:43 AM   #87
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Well Sons to Glory! if you're out to lunch, then I'm out to lunch, dinner and a midnight snack to boot Yes, I do remember you posting a really good answer to this question. I think it's on another thread.



Thanks Trapped for bailing us out once again with your sensible post! I guess what my biggest problem with the "calling on the Lord" that is practiced in the Local Church is the "corporate" aspect. One clue that this kind of corporate practice is not scriptural and not of the Lord is the reaction that other genuine Christians have when hearing/experiencing this practice for the first time. In my observation and experience the overwhelming number of brothers and sisters have a negative reaction. The reactions go from "this is kind of weird and uncomfortable" all the way to "this sounds like a kind of Eastern chanting and I want out of here now!" and of course just about everything in between.
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Now maybe you've hit this thing more accurately - that is, the corporate chanting thing! That bothered me some too. There's nothing wrong with the corporate vocalizing of scripture, right? And many preachers will ask for an "amen" which is done corporately. But you're right that this corporate "Oh Lord Jesus" repeated several times was bothering, at least to me - I really only did it cuz everyone else was doing it.
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Old 06-27-2020, 09:14 AM   #88
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Now maybe you've hit this thing more accurately - that is, the corporate chanting thing! That bothered me some too. There's nothing wrong with the corporate vocalizing of scripture, right? And many preachers will ask for an "amen" which is done corporately. But you're right that this corporate "Oh Lord Jesus" repeated several times was bothering, at least to me - I really only did it cuz everyone else was doing it.
I was repulsed when I saw this during the Whistler quarantine -- "Let's all stand and call on the Lord 5 times."
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Old 06-27-2020, 11:40 AM   #89
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So I'll ask again. Those of you who still practice "calling on the Lord", could you please tell me how it differs from what is practiced in the Local Church? Please be as practical as you can.
I only need to call on the Lord once as opposed to two times, three times, etc.
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Old 06-28-2020, 12:10 AM   #90
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Calling on the Lord is practiced in a few different ways in the LC.... But they also practice at least three other ways that I don't agree with:

1. The repetitive 7th inning stretch type calling: "Let's call on the Lord 5 times" which to me is just like doing jumping jacks. stand up, pump arm, yell out, repeat 5 times. Both are to get people out of their seats, to "get the blood pumping" and to wake people up. I think I would almost consider this an instance of taking His name in vain, because it's not giving it due honor, but simply using it as a tool rather than in recognition there is a Person behind it.

I am not totally sure because I haven't watched the whole thing, but I think this particular practice is also used in instances, say, where LSM holds a kangaroo court, and then gets everyone out of their seat to call on the Lord together, which is simply a form of group control to unify the whole room together in a common action. It produces implied agreement with whatever was just spoken. Bad news all around.

2. They also call on the Lord to shut people up or to express disgust when looking down their noses at someone. This is also using His name in vain, IMO.

3. They also, as the last spate of posts covered, teach people to call on the Lord 3x as an effective form of salvation.

All of these use the exact same three words, but only differ in volume, tone, context, and, well, "heart" to put it one way. Hard to convey those particular nuances over a forum. My calling on the Lord is like the first one, in prayer, but not like the numbered 3.
Trapped I like this post very much.

I want to add something that helps to create a context for the right and wrong ways of practising or interpreting something, according to my greater observation of life.

Life is not a clear matter of opposites clashing against each other, good and evil operating from opposite sides. Rather, evil comes alongside good and impersonates it, while being motivated by the opposite form good.
To make sense of that statement I will illustrate it with some examples:

-Love is of God, so is good. Lust can seem like love yet it consumes its focus and uses for its own gratification.

-Admiration (appreciation of someones achievement or success)/ jealousy

- Good natured humour/ mockery (humour used specifically to shame and hurt)

-Righteousness(based on God's standard)/ self-righteousness(based on one's own self-interested standard)

-Childlikeness (delightful sweetness of a child)/ childishness (immature, self-centeredness)

-Introspection resulting in correction of behavior and attitude/ egocentric navel-gazing which bolsters a victim mentality and self-righteousness.

All these and many other things each have their healthy, wholesome expression, and their fallen counterpart, which can sometimes look the same at first. That is because evil is not creative, it copies. Its copy is motivated by its own character, so in essence, expresses itself.

Trapped has given a good example of a straightforward way of practicing ‘calling on the name of the Lord’, and three clear examples of the misuse of the same concept, expressing very different motivation, and for various ends other than communicating with Jesus: i.e. to ‘wake people up’, ‘shut people up’, ‘express disgust’, control the group, and the outcome, and as a cheap version of salvation. Some of those uses of the practice being more overtly sinister than others.

‘Calling on the name of the Lord’ and the other practices of the LC are presented to the ‘seeker’ in a healthy form at first. But over time, as one meets, these practices slowly transfer from an expression of one thing, to another. I was told, at a certain point along the way, that we should not give our own personal testimony, but testify only words of scripture verbatim. (After I had testified on a personal level, many times, with their full encouragement). The new instruction is now the standard of how you ‘testify’. (Further along the track I’m sure the written words of WL would be added to this directive). So, to ‘testify’ had just changed its meaning, lost its freedom and spontaneity, become impersonal and an expression of words of scripture (from the book of revelation) alone. A matter to be expressed in rote form only. And a change, a shift, in what is acceptable. These statements expressed the beginnings of a new, restrictive and authoritarian flavor, creeping in. The creeping very deliberate, and I was expected to comply with this change, delivered in small increments. If one is not watching on in an internally detached way, you and I could miss these subtle shifts. That is the confusing aspect of the LC experience, and the way they slowly ‘switch’ after the ‘bait’ has been successfully fed.

I realized that as I observed all these things silently, I did not react outwardly, they did not perceive my internal response and the question marks that were forming. Even then, its hard as there has been such a foundation of pleasant experiences that has formed, over time and been consistent till this unexpected new rule, and this alone is just one detail. It takes some thought to realize what these new ‘restrictions, corrections and conformations’ are, and a shock to discover that they are being administered to you in a very calculated and conscious way, with a coherent goal that binds these all together. Topped off with the lie that they are not doing any such thing at all! We are just Christians meeting together!

That is the dishonest intention behind their methods and a clever way of deliberately using the good, Godly and the fallen, distorted versions of a particular reference in scripture, to deceive and entrap an unsuspecting soul.
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