First Post kumbaya

JJ · 12-19-2017, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

JJ>”Drake is taking issue with a word....”
JJ, No, I’m not. Read what I said.

OK, I can see how Steinem’s quote can be viewed that way, Drake. But, I also hope you can “put yourself in kumbaya’s shoes” and think about what it is like to be child growing up in TLR where “being one with The Ministry” is confused with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is a free gift (take it or leave it).

Ohio · 12-19-2017, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

OK, I can see how Steinem’s quote can be viewed that way, Drake. But, I also hope you can “put yourself in kumbaya’s shoes” and think about what it is like to be child growing up in TLR where “being one with The Ministry” is confused with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is a free gift (take it or leave it).

Think about this objectively for just a minute.

Why in the world should it ever be demanded of us that we be one with some ministry?

There is absolutely no justification in scripture.

It is absolutely contrary to the construct of "local" churches.

Actually, this was the same tactic the Judaizers used -- forcing all the Gentile churches to be "one with the ministry" in Jerusalem, and bringing all the Gentile churches under their legalistic subjection. The reason why churches should be "local" is so that heresy and corruption remains limited in scope. Once headquarters becomes corrupt, that same disease then can spread to all the churches. History shows this has happened with every denomination to some degree. And ... yes ... the "Recovery" is a denomination. Denominations do not become "denominations" because they have the right or wrong name, rather they become denominations once they are brought under the subjection of a ruling headquarters, with a self-serving agenda.

Read and reread the 7 epistles to the churches in Asia in Revelation chapters 2-3. Their individual spiritual conditions span the gamut of church history, both time and space. Where does the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man walking in their midst, instruct any of them to be "one with the ministry" of John or any other Apostle?

kumbaya · 12-19-2017, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Think about this objectively for just a minute.

Why in the world should it ever be demanded of us that we be one with some ministry?

There is absolutely no justification in scripture.

It is absolutely contrary to the construct of "local" churches.

Actually, this was the same tactic the Judaizers used -- forcing all the Gentile churches to be "one with the ministry" in Jerusalem, and bringing all the Gentile churches under their legalistic subjection. The reason why churches should be "local" is so that heresy and corruption remains limited in scope. Once headquarters becomes corrupt, that same disease then can spread to all the churches. History shows this has happened with every denomination to some degree. And ... yes ... the "Recovery" is a denomination. Denominations do not become "denominations" because they have the right or wrong name, rather they become denominations once they are brought under the subjection of a ruling headquarters, with a self-serving agenda.

Read and reread the 7 epistles to the churches in Asia in Revelation chapters 2-3. Their individual spiritual conditions span the gamut of church history, both time and space. Where does the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man walking in their midst, instruct any of them to be "one with the ministry" of John or any other Apostle?

I will read, thank you... Yes, I can't think of anything I've read in the Bible that would justify being one with a ministry other than the one of Jesus Christ. I can read about his ministry in the Bible. I love Jesus, I do. Thank you Lord for being pure.

kumbaya · 12-20-2017, 06:18 AM

I’m searching for some books (preferably audiobooks) on how to talk to family about this sort of thing. Any one have any recommendations?

Ohio · 12-20-2017, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I will read, thank you... Yes, I can't think of anything I've read in the Bible that would justify being one with a ministry other than the one of Jesus Christ. I can read about his ministry in the Bible. I love Jesus, I do. Thank you Lord for being pure.

I love that comment. I so often hear "how great Thou art," that it's easy to miss the deeper things of Christ. You reminded me of a few verses in I John 3:

See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and we really are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, we are now children of God, and it has not yet appeared what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

kumbaya · 12-20-2017, 10:39 AM

He is, Amen

kumbaya · 12-20-2017, 11:25 AM

To anyone who's interested in reading this- I thought it cleared up some questions I had about WL's mindset.

I'm kind of a psychology junkie so I find this fascinating whether related to the LC or not.

I've read a little bit about thought reform tactics and coercive persuasion tactics, Totalism, and other tactics used to create control and exploit.

From what I understand, "thought reform" as we know it now originated in China (or was used then) in the 40's and 50's by the communist government. There's all kinds of tactics from mild to extreme. It really bothered me to have to recognize that I see these implemented by WL and practiced. Whether or not you agree on the morality of using these methods- they were and are used. When I have more time I can go back and point out just the ones I saw. I'm sure most former members could look up Chinese thought reform and recognize it themselves as well.

So, the point is - they were/are used. I can't convince anyone on the morality of that and we have to decide that for ourselves. Maybe WL truly believed he was doing it for the "greater good" and that the saints would all be better off if he used the same methods used by the Chinese communist government on Christians. Maybe, maybe not.

There's little doubt, in my opinion, that this was not a well-thought out plan and strategy used by WL. His writings/teachings/arguments are full of totalism and the thought reform/coersive persuasion techniques. It's there- you can decided for yourself if it's wrong or not but it's at least mixing preaching the gospel with a method meant to manipulate and exploit. I do not doubt that WL was a very smart man, probably a genius.

For a few months, I've been trying to point these things out my family and friends in the church. Some are as shocked as me but others won't hear it. I've been realizing how hard it is for them to just "hear" another point of view because of these tactics used on them. I admit, I didn't want to hear anything negative about the church in the past. The fear of being "poisoned" is real! Also, because they associate their relationship with the Lord to the LC due to these tactics, it's an inevitable strong hold to block out reason and not listen to it. These tactics create a situation where their very existence and spirituality is threatened by the possibility that the Lord's Recovery isn't real and the local church has or always was a cult. I realized that they are very damaged by these methods. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I wasn't too. Most experts agree that these techniques are psychologically damaging. The biggest one I see that prevents them from seeing through it is disinhibition. This is where you reduce someone to a child-like state where they are unable to think critically or make decisions for themselves. I believe it's evil, but- how could WL use it and it not be? I feel like if I could just explain to my family these tactics then maybe they could see. I know it's not my job to do anything and I should just pray but I'm having a hard time accepting that it's all I can do.

I read a study on thought reform in China by Robert Lifton and came across a video of a speech he gave on a topic related to it. It's over the thought reform methods used in cults/governments in past/present and the effects they could have on our future and implications of that. I feel like knowledge is power (mental strength) and I don't even need to read anything attacking the LC. All I have to do is read and educate myself on what healthy/unhealthy practices are and I can just look at the LC and say, "Yep, that's wrong and it's damaging people."

The clip is REALLY good and I need to listen to it again. His audience is obviously an academic crowd so he doesn't always speak in layman's terms.

I felt like I recognized many of the techniques he talks about in the LC and wanted to share.

I know we all have our input to bring to the table and I'm less informed on theology and more prone to recognize the psychology/social aspects of a situation. By no means am I an expert though- I just like reading what the experts say and talking about it

Not ALL of this video relates to what I see in the LC but you'll be able to pick out for yourself.

I still want to learn about how to possibly bring this up to my family. I was thinking that if they could just educate themselves on these tactics and be able to spot them... that might help separate their relationship with the Lord from the LC. We really have all been programmed by WL.... I can't imagine being 40 plus years in the LC and realizing this.... at what point is it not worth the pain?
I definitely have more of a burden for the younger generation, just bc they have their whole lives ahead of them. But everyone needs to know.

How do people "de-program" though?? Can you help them? Should you?

Here's the link.....

https://archive.org/details/RobertJa...yTotalismCults

Ohio · 12-20-2017, 01:01 PM

We have had lots of discussion on this Spiritual Abuse Titles sub-forum.

The poster named aron has provided much information about western vs. oriental thought, the former stressing individuality liberties, and the latter stressing the collective group think. Witness Lee modeled much of LSM and its control over the LC's on Chinese culture. His first decade in the US was much more conducive to individual liberty of the Spirit. In Jan. 1974 things began to change for the worse.

For example, what I call the ministry of "early-Lee" stressed walking by the Spirit and building up autonomous local churches. Most of today's older leaders joined the movement during those early days. "Later-Lee," however. stressed the "body-life" and being "one with the ministry." Lee would use every crisis in the Recovery to expedite his takeover of the LC's. Sometimes he would even manufacture a crisis when needed, but convince the members it was all the Lord's doing.

Here is one thread started by aron on Brainwashing

JJ · 12-22-2017, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kumbaya

How do people "de-program" though?? Can you help them? Should you?

My thoughts are to make sure you complete the process yourself first. And, keep in mind that Jesus himself is the truth (John 14:6), and continuing in His word is what causes you to know the truth, and it is the truth that sets you free (John 8:31-32). He and His words are what free you, and others as well. Stay anchored there.

12-20-2017, 06:18 AM	#4
kumbaya Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 250	Re: First Post kumbaya I’m searching for some books (preferably audiobooks) on how to talk to family about this sort of thing. Any one have any recommendations?

12-20-2017, 10:39 AM	#6
kumbaya Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 250	Re: First Post kumbaya He is, Amen

12-20-2017, 11:25 AM	#7
kumbaya Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 250	Re: First Post kumbaya To anyone who's interested in reading this- I thought it cleared up some questions I had about WL's mindset. I'm kind of a psychology junkie so I find this fascinating whether related to the LC or not. I've read a little bit about thought reform tactics and coercive persuasion tactics, Totalism, and other tactics used to create control and exploit. From what I understand, "thought reform" as we know it now originated in China (or was used then) in the 40's and 50's by the communist government. There's all kinds of tactics from mild to extreme. It really bothered me to have to recognize that I see these implemented by WL and practiced. Whether or not you agree on the morality of using these methods- they were and are used. When I have more time I can go back and point out just the ones I saw. I'm sure most former members could look up Chinese thought reform and recognize it themselves as well. So, the point is - they were/are used. I can't convince anyone on the morality of that and we have to decide that for ourselves. Maybe WL truly believed he was doing it for the "greater good" and that the saints would all be better off if he used the same methods used by the Chinese communist government on Christians. Maybe, maybe not. There's little doubt, in my opinion, that this was not a well-thought out plan and strategy used by WL. His writings/teachings/arguments are full of totalism and the thought reform/coersive persuasion techniques. It's there- you can decided for yourself if it's wrong or not but it's at least mixing preaching the gospel with a method meant to manipulate and exploit. I do not doubt that WL was a very smart man, probably a genius. For a few months, I've been trying to point these things out my family and friends in the church. Some are as shocked as me but others won't hear it. I've been realizing how hard it is for them to just "hear" another point of view because of these tactics used on them. I admit, I didn't want to hear anything negative about the church in the past. The fear of being "poisoned" is real! Also, because they associate their relationship with the Lord to the LC due to these tactics, it's an inevitable strong hold to block out reason and not listen to it. These tactics create a situation where their very existence and spirituality is threatened by the possibility that the Lord's Recovery isn't real and the local church has or always was a cult. I realized that they are very damaged by these methods. I'd be lying to myself if I said that I wasn't too. Most experts agree that these techniques are psychologically damaging. The biggest one I see that prevents them from seeing through it is disinhibition. This is where you reduce someone to a child-like state where they are unable to think critically or make decisions for themselves. I believe it's evil, but- how could WL use it and it not be? I feel like if I could just explain to my family these tactics then maybe they could see. I know it's not my job to do anything and I should just pray but I'm having a hard time accepting that it's all I can do. I read a study on thought reform in China by Robert Lifton and came across a video of a speech he gave on a topic related to it. It's over the thought reform methods used in cults/governments in past/present and the effects they could have on our future and implications of that. I feel like knowledge is power (mental strength) and I don't even need to read anything attacking the LC. All I have to do is read and educate myself on what healthy/unhealthy practices are and I can just look at the LC and say, "Yep, that's wrong and it's damaging people." The clip is REALLY good and I need to listen to it again. His audience is obviously an academic crowd so he doesn't always speak in layman's terms. I felt like I recognized many of the techniques he talks about in the LC and wanted to share. I know we all have our input to bring to the table and I'm less informed on theology and more prone to recognize the psychology/social aspects of a situation. By no means am I an expert though- I just like reading what the experts say and talking about it Not ALL of this video relates to what I see in the LC but you'll be able to pick out for yourself. I still want to learn about how to possibly bring this up to my family. I was thinking that if they could just educate themselves on these tactics and be able to spot them... that might help separate their relationship with the Lord from the LC. We really have all been programmed by WL.... I can't imagine being 40 plus years in the LC and realizing this.... at what point is it not worth the pain? I definitely have more of a burden for the younger generation, just bc they have their whole lives ahead of them. But everyone needs to know. How do people "de-program" though?? Can you help them? Should you? Here's the link..... https://archive.org/details/RobertJa...yTotalismCults

12-20-2017, 01:01 PM	#8
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,693	Re: First Post kumbaya We have had lots of discussion on this Spiritual Abuse Titles sub-forum. The poster named aron has provided much information about western vs. oriental thought, the former stressing individuality liberties, and the latter stressing the collective group think. Witness Lee modeled much of LSM and its control over the LC's on Chinese culture. His first decade in the US was much more conducive to individual liberty of the Spirit. In Jan. 1974 things began to change for the worse. For example, what I call the ministry of "early-Lee" stressed walking by the Spirit and building up autonomous local churches. Most of today's older leaders joined the movement during those early days. "Later-Lee," however. stressed the "body-life" and being "one with the ministry." Lee would use every crisis in the Recovery to expedite his takeover of the LC's. Sometimes he would even manufacture a crisis when needed, but convince the members it was all the Lord's doing. Here is one thread started by aron on Brainwashing __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!