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Old 03-13-2018, 09:27 AM   #501
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Default Re: The Trinity: Consistent with the Bible?

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Except that Luke and Paul said that the church was purchased with God's own blood. (Acts 20.28)

Jesus also said that He has the authority to lay down His life, and take it again. (John 10.17-18)

Obviously these verses don't fit your narrative. Neither are they in conflict with John 17.3.
In a typical trinitarian fashion, you leave out the important stuff. ““Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.””
**John‬ *10:17-18‬ *NKJV‬‬
Jesus authority came from his Father, whom Jesus acknowledges and declares as his God. We too, who are disciples of Jesus should follow his example and acknowledge that Jesus' God is our God, Jesus's Father is our Father.

Paul, in Acts 20, is speaking to the elders from Ephesus. I would think you would want to take in the whole scene - “And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

“So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.**Acts‬ *20:18-21, 27-28, 32‬ *

Your thinking must be, after going through Paul's important letter to the Ephesians where there is no mention of Jesus being God, nor of a triune God, but quite the contrary, Paul writes of the God of Jesus, and that the Ephesians are to keep the teaching of one God, the Father, that suddenly, as a parting need to give them the whole picture, he tells them that God has blood? Which you imply that he is telling them that Jesus is God? And that Luke, who records this, and up to this point, nor after makes any allusions to this, kind of sticks this in there!?

I agree with awareness' presentation. It is a possession of God in that Jesus was the lamb of God. Jesus was not the God lamb, but the lamb OF God.

This all has been discussed before, you are now starting to recycle old material.

How about we discuss Jesus' words of explanation of Himself in John 10

“Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.””John‬ *10:34-38‬

The Father, who Jesus acknowledges as his God, is in Jesus, which is a far cry from Jesus is God. Yet the scripture quote of gods is quite interesting.

This would have been an excellent opportunity for Jesus to say God is triune, and I'm the second person!
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:36 AM   #502
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I grew up in it. Named after my uncle, a Franciscan monk. Lived with his cursed name my whole life. Parochial school, altar boy, choir, and the rest.

I am well familiar with all things Catholic. I do not need these kinds of cheap thrills.
I, as well, grew up in the RC, yet I find looking at the roots of their beliefs both entertaining and frightening. They were the prevailing Christian testimony for 1000 years. Their influence crafted the Christian thought, worship, behavior, much of what still prevails today.
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:39 AM   #503
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Default Re: The Trinity: Consistent with the Bible?

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I like to think that if God wanted us to think of Him as a plural, and make a whole religion out of this plural thing, that God would have had His people clearly preach, teach, write about it.
I seem to remember numerous places in Genesis where Jehovah God Himself said, "Let US make man in our image after OUR likeness ..." and also "Behold the man is become one of US ..." (Gen 1.26, 3.22)
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:46 AM   #504
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Default Re: The Trinity: Consistent with the Bible?

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The Father, who Jesus acknowledges as his God, is in Jesus, which is a far cry from Jesus is God. Yet the scripture quote of gods is quite interesting.

This would have been an excellent opportunity for Jesus to say God is triune, and I'm the second person!
The issue for me is not whether the Bible teaches some doctrine of the trinity or triune, but whether Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, God in the flesh.

His name is Emmanuel -- God with us -- and Jesus -- Jehovah our Savior.
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:53 AM   #505
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I, as well, grew up in the RC, yet I find looking at the roots of their beliefs both entertaining and frightening. They were the prevailing Christian testimony for 1000 years. Their influence crafted the Christian thought, worship, behavior, much of what still prevails today.
I took away only a few truths from my time in the RCC -- both of which were by revelation amidst trials -- that (1) Jesus is God become man who died for my sins, and (2) that the Bible is the trustworthy word of God, and (3) that Jesus created the earth and all things in it.
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:42 AM   #506
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I like to think that if God wanted us to think of Him as a plural, and make a whole religion out of this plural thing, that God would have had His people clearly preach, teach, write about it. I myself, don't want a God that is up to slight of hands, look over here, while I perform magic over there performance.

I think Moses, Paul, and Jesus presented the God I believe in quite clearly - One God, the Father. The other god that is presented by trinitarians- not believable or trustworthy.
Einstein said God doesn't play dice. I like to think He also doesn't play sleight of hand tricks. But I'm not sure of that. There's evidence, particularly with the problem of evil that, God keeps a lot hidden from us.

And I also agree that we don't really know what John meant by the word Logos. But no matter how we define it John says the Logos WAS God.

And if we take it as the very Word of God, we can't get around that.
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:25 AM   #507
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I took away only a few truths from my time in the RCC -- both of which were by revelation amidst trials -- that (1) Jesus is God become man who died for my sins, and (2) that the Bible is the trustworthy word of God, and (3) that Jesus created the earth and all things in it.
Ephesians 3:9 says God created all things through Jesus Christ. Your Jesus seems to be self-sufficient. There doesn't seem to be an need for God the Father in your theology.

Now Boxjobox denies the pre-existence of Jesus. He loves to quote John 17:3 but I haven't seen him quote John 17:5 which says
Quote:
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
And he denies the divinity of the Holy Spirit. He hasn't explained what the Spirit is.
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:53 AM   #508
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Default Re: The Trinity: Consistent with the Bible?

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Ephesians 3:9 says God created all things through Jesus Christ. Your Jesus seems to be self-sufficient. There doesn't seem to be an need for God the Father in your theology.

Now Boxjobox denies the pre-existence of Jesus. He loves to quote John 17:3 but I haven't seen him quote John 17:5 which says

And he denies the divinity of the Holy Spirit. He hasn't explained what the Spirit is.
Great verses, and I love them both, and I don't have conflicts with both being absolutely true.

There are untold number of scripture which refute Boxjobox's Adoptionism.

Concerning creation, this verse for me is notable: John 1.3 "All things came into being thru Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being which has come into being."

How could God create all things thru His Son unless His Son is also eternal?

At this point Boxjobox and I are just talking past each other. He sees definite conflicts with Jesus being God, whereas I do not. He thinks my error is trinitarianism, and I think his is adoptionism.

Any reason to continue the discussion?
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Old 03-13-2018, 09:16 PM   #509
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Default Re: The Trinity: Consistent with the Bible?

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Great verses, and I love them both, and I don't have conflicts with both being absolutely true.

There are untold number of scripture which refute Boxjobox's Adoptionism.

Concerning creation, this verse for me is notable: John 1.3 "All things came into being thru Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being which has come into being."

How could God create all things thru His Son unless His Son is also eternal?

At this point Boxjobox and I are just talking past each other. He sees definite conflicts with Jesus being God, whereas I do not. He thinks my error is trinitarianism, and I think his is adoptionism.

Any reason to continue the discussion?
I think there are reasons to continue the discussion. Trinitarianism is not spelled out in the New Testament. It took several hundred years to work it out as a doctrine. Why?

Verse after verse in the NT refers to the one true God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Lordship seems to have been conferred upon Jesus at his ascension to heaven, his exultation. How is that compatible with the notion that he was God already?

If it weren't for the passages affirming Christ's pre-existence, "adoptionism" would seem to be correct. As it says in Acts 13:33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’"

The realization that Jesus was divine in some sense probably came first with the experience of the resurrection. What later became the heresy of "adoptionism" may have been the earliest realization of Jesus' Sonship.

That Jesus is God isn't made explicit until the Gospel of John. And even there it is done indirectly until the penultimate chapter. So the author never says "Jesus is God" like you do. Why not?

Boxjobox is correct that "Jesus is God' is not preached in Acts much less that the Holy Spirit is God. Doesn't Acts make it clear that belief in the Trinity or in the divinity of Christ or the Holy Spirit is not necessary for salvation?

These are things that trinitarians take for granted yet they are not explicitly taught in the Bible if they're taught there at all. Why is that? John 4:24 says God is spirit. Where's the verse that says the Spirit is God?

So yeah, I think we should continue the discussion. I think we all have a lot to learn if we can open our minds.
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Old 03-14-2018, 07:55 AM   #510
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If it weren't for the passages affirming Christ's pre-existence, "adoptionism" would seem to be correct. As it says in Acts 13:33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’"
Great verse. Here Paul is referring to the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and quotes the second Psalm, (by revelation I believe) indicating God birthed the slain Messiah.

But He was already the "Only Begotten Son of God, in the bosom of the Father" before His birth to the virgin Mary. How can this be?

And then why would Paul later call Him the "Firstborn" instead of the "Only Begotten?" (Rom 8.29)

And to provide further confusion to "Adoptionist Birthers," at His Baptism there was a voice from heaven, "This is My Beloved Son, in You I delight."

So confusing to the natural man, who is "unable to know them." (I Cor 2.14)
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:00 AM   #511
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Boxjobox is correct that "Jesus is God' is not preached in Acts much less that the Holy Spirit is God. Doesn't Acts make it clear that belief in the Trinity or in the divinity of Christ or the Holy Spirit is not necessary for salvation?

These are things that trinitarians take for granted yet they are not explicitly taught in the Bible if they're taught there at all. Why is that? John 4:24 says God is spirit. Where's the verse that says the Spirit is God?
Benny Hinn wrote a book that implied that the church had been neglecting the worship of the Holy Spirit for 2 millennia, and thus he had made a "great discovery."

I have not seen any scripture which indicates that we should be worshiping the Spirit, but there are numerous verses displaying the worship of both Jesus and the Father.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:14 AM   #512
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I think there are reasons to continue the discussion. Trinitarianism is not spelled out in the New Testament. It took several hundred years to work it out as a doctrine. Why?
This is similar to those who claim no musical instruments should be used in the church because we don't see any evidence of their use until the 5th or 6th century. Puleeeease!

This is one of the reasons I distinguish between trinitarianism and the truth that Jesus is the eternal Son of God. Trinitarianism carries with it lots of baggage, like the creeds of old, while the Deity of Jesus Christ is entirely scriptural. Boxjobox continually obfuscates this issue.

Many things are not "spelled out" in scripture to our liking, but that does not make them less true. The councils and the creeds were later used to compile diverse scripture together systematically in order to protect the church from heresy, and to provide brief abstracts of the faith. They of course have their downside, but for the most part have been useful to the church. I could say the same about today's apologetics.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:29 AM   #513
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Great verse. Here Paul is referring to the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and quotes the second Psalm, (by revelation I believe) indicating God birthed the slain Messiah.

But He was already the "Only Begotten Son of God, in the bosom of the Father" before His birth to the virgin Mary. How can this be?

And then why would Paul later call Him the "Firstborn" instead of the "Only Begotten?" (Rom 8.29)

And to provide further confusion to "Adoptionist Birthers," at His Baptism there was a voice from heaven, "This is My Beloved Son, in You I delight."

So confusing to the natural man, who is "unable to know them." (I Cor 2.14)
You're claiming to be a spiritual man.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:32 AM   #514
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Benny Hinn wrote a book that implied that the church had been neglecting the worship of the Holy Spirit for 2 millennia, and thus he had made a "great discovery."

I have not seen any scripture which indicates that we should be worshiping the Spirit, but there are numerous verses displaying the worship of both Jesus and the Father.
What I asked is where it says that the Holy Spirit is God. Your response dodges the issue.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:39 AM   #515
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This is similar to those who claim no musical instruments should be used in the church because we don't see any evidence of their use until the 5th or 6th century. Puleeeease!

This is one of the reasons I distinguish between trinitarianism and the truth that Jesus is the eternal Son of God. Trinitarianism carries with it lots of baggage, like the creeds of old, while the Deity of Jesus Christ is entirely scriptural. Boxjobox continually obfuscates this issue.

Many things are not "spelled out" in scripture to our liking, but that does not make them less true. The councils and the creeds were later used to compile diverse scripture together systematically in order to protect the church from heresy, and to provide brief abstracts of the faith. They of course have their downside, but for the most part have been useful to the church. I could say the same about today's apologetics.
If a fact is necessary for salvation wouldn't it be made perfectly clear? Show me where it is made perfectly clear that Jesus is God outside of the Gospel of John.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:44 AM   #516
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Substitute IDEA for the word WORD.
Substitute? Who bestowed upon you the right and authority to go around substituting your man-made notions for the plain and clear words of the Scriptures? This kind of foolishness should be painfully familiar to you Boxjobox...Witness Lee was the substitute master. I think we've all noticed that you are a real stickler on wording and phrases if they seemingly match your Unitarian dogma, but when the plain, clear words point to the divinity of Jesus you want to switch gears into "substituting". Nice work if you can get it!

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Chalk it up to none of us have a handle on the logos thing, don't have a background of where John is coming from, and stick to what we do have that Luke researched and presented, and which we have Paul's ministry to handle.
If you'll just put your chalk down for a minute or two and read what wise and spiritual men have been teaching and writing since the first generation of apostles, scholars, apologists and disciples, you would find out that these fellows spent a lot of time and effort to get a pretty firm handle on the Logos, as well as many other scriptural teachings and doctrines. We "don't have a background of where John is coming from?" Of course we do. John's background was an intimate 3+ year relationship under the discipleship and teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. His gospel is nothing more and nothing less then his giving the "good news" of what he was taught by Jesus himself. ALL OF IT is the gospel, not just the parts that align with our personal theology. Just who John was writing to is of little consequence, and pales in comparison to the original source of his teachings.
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Old 03-14-2018, 08:47 AM   #517
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This is similar to those who claim no musical instruments should be used in the church because we don't see any evidence of their use until the 5th or 6th century. [I]Puleeeease!
Yes they discount "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
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Old 03-14-2018, 02:32 PM   #518
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Substitute IDEA for the word WORD.

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Substitute? Who bestowed upon you the right and authority to go around substituting your man-made notions for the plain and clear words of the Scriptures? This kind of foolishness should be painfully familiar to you Boxjobox...Witness Lee was the substitute master. I think we've all noticed that you are a real stickler on wording and phrases if they seemingly match your Unitarian dogma, but when the plain, clear words point to the divinity of Jesus you want to switch gears into "substituting". Nice work if you can get it!
Now, now, bro Untohim. Jobox didn't invent the notion of the Logos as an IDEA.

For that we've got to go back to Philo (30 BCE - 50 CE - before and after Jesus), a Jewish writer in Alexandria, Egypt. Philo designated the Logos as the "idea of ideas" and the "archetypal idea." And we can't dismiss this, as Philo was defining the word logos back then, circa 50 years before the gospel we call John was written.

And long before him, Aristotle, c. 400 years before John, thought of the logos as the logic behind an argument. Moreover, even further back, Plato before him allowed his characters to engage in the concept of describing logos as a living being in some of his dialogues, long before whoever this alleged John did.

John didn't cook up the logos. Not even close.

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If you'll just put your chalk down for a minute or two and read what wise and spiritual men have been teaching and writing since the first generation of apostles, scholars, apologists and disciples, you would find out that these fellows spent a lot of time and effort to get a pretty firm handle on the Logos ...
Well that's a huge jump to a conclusion. Methinks you're perchance superimposing, projecting, today's Christian tradition upon the Christian past.

Heraclitus coined the word logos 600 years before the gospel that John's name was eventually attributed too - (of course you're smart enough to know that all the gospels were anonymously written).

So the word logos was in common currency back then, and had been for a long, long, time. And it's meaning, as exemplified by Philo, was still being defined and worked out.

The word logos is used 316 times in the New Testament ; in all kinds of ways ; with many different meanings.

Examples:
The book of Acts uses it almost twice as many times as John. And even in John it's used as "saying(s)" 16 times, of the 36 times that it's used.

Acts 1:1 uses it as "treatise."

Mark, our earliest gospel, uses it sometimes as "question" and "matter."

Other uses in the NT are, account, reason, doctrine, do, speech, utterance, shew, communication, preaching, work, move, exhortation, things, speaker, tidings, intent, rumour (sic), fame abroad, reckoneth, talk, cause, ; and in one of your favorite chapters, 1 Corinthians 15, it's even used as "I," by Paul, our earliest sources, c. 50 years before this gospel we call John.

So tell me again how "these fellows spent a lot of time and effort to get a pretty firm handle on the Logos ..."

Truth be told, we still don't have a handle on it.

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We "don't have a background of where John is coming from?" Of course we do. John's background was an intimate 3+ year relationship under the discipleship and teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. His gospel is nothing more and nothing less then his giving the "good news" of what he was taught by Jesus himself.
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Goodness bro Untohim, you aren't talking to Christian newbies. You're talking to Bible believers that know better. You're clearly talking from traditional beliefs ; from the same ones that cooked up the trinity.

Forget Witness Lee. You're standing on a whole lot earlier "substituters" than Witness Lee.
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:03 AM   #519
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Great verse. Here Paul is referring to the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and quotes the second Psalm, (by revelation I believe) indicating God birthed the slain Messiah.

But He was already the "Only Begotten Son of God, in the bosom of the Father" before His birth to the virgin Mary. How can this be?

And then why would Paul later call Him the "Firstborn" instead of the "Only Begotten?" (Rom 8.29)

And to provide further confusion to "Adoptionist Birthers," at His Baptism there was a voice from heaven, "This is My Beloved Son, in You I delight."

So confusing to the natural man, who is "unable to know them." (I Cor 2.14)
So Ohio- was Paul being a natural man when he informed the Corinthians “Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.”
**I Corinthians‬ *8:4-7‬ *NKJV‬‬

A straightforward teaching about the real state of affairs in heaven and earth. We are to acknowledge one God, the Father. To pretend that Paul teaches trinitarianism is so beyond reason! This verse shows there were issues in understanding the Christian view of the cosmos as opposed to their historical pagan views. And Paul gives a concise teaching so that there is no confusion.
Why do you have a problem accepting that the Christian is to acknowledge only one as God, and that is the Father. This one God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus and our God and Father. Better to follow the example of Jesus and Paul and acknowledge such. That way, you don't get led down the road to strange evolve teachings. This word is a protection for you if you follow it, lest you end up is strange worship.
Consider the word of Jesus to the Samaritan woman. “Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He. ””
**John‬ *4:21-26‬ *NKJV‬‬
Jesus here pointing out about the importance of the true worship- and we know the history of the Samaritans, and points us specifically to God, the Father.

Also, please note the use of egO eimi- your great I Am argument. Jesus is not saying I am God, but I am the Christ, the one both the Jews and Samaritans were waiting for. And there he was, teaching the woman about true worship. In John's gospel, this is the first time Jesus uses egO eimi the context? God the Father is God, and Jesus is the Christ.
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:18 AM   #520
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Also, please note the use of egO eimi- your great I Am argument. Jesus is not saying I am God, but I am the Christ
In the New Testament Jesus responded to a group of Jews who were questioning Him, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM” (Jn 8:58). Notice what Jesus did not say: He did not say, “Before Abraham was, I was”that might simply mean that He came into existence before Abraham; rather, He used the Name of God: “I AM.” There was never a time when Jesus came into being, or when He did not existtherefore He said, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” God transcends time… He exists outside of time… He is eternal!

Jesus’ application of the words “I am” to Himself not only denoted His preexistence but associated Him with Yahweh. Jesus used ego eimi (“I am” in Greek) in an absolute, unqualified sense (Jn 4:26; 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:5-8) to appropriate for Himself the Old Testament name of God (Ex 3:14). Jesus was the fulfillment of the promise given to Abraham (Jn 8:56). Incidentally, the Jews understood exactly what Jesus meant that He was claiming to be Yahweh! It was for this reason they sought to stone Him (Jn 8:59), because to them this was blasphemy!

The fact that Jesus claimed an explicit self-identification with Yahweh (Jn 8:58-59; 13:19-20), caused His opponents to ultimately have Him crucified (Mt 26:63-67; Mk 14:61-65; 15:2-3, 12-13; Lk 22:66-71; Jn 19:1-22). In the New Testament, many of Jesus’ “I am” sayings possess a subjective completion; by examining His “truth claims” we will gain a better understanding of exactly who He is. In short, Jesus made the following ten claims
  1. I am the Christ (Mt 26:63-64; Mk 14:61-62) — Jesus is the Messiah, God’s anointed One.
  2. I am the bread of life (Jn 6:35) — Jesus is our spiritual food.
  3. I am the light of the world (Jn 8:12) — Jesus gives us spiritual sight.
  4. I am the door (Jn 10:9) — Jesus is the way of salvation.
  5. I am the good shepherd (Jn 10:11) — Jesus provides us with spiritual guidance.
  6. I am the Son of God (Mt 26:63-64; 27:43; Lk 1:32; Jn 10:36; Rom 1:3) Jesus is God incarnate.
  7. I am the resurrection and the life (Jn 11:25) — Jesus is our spiritual life.
  8. I am the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6) Jesus is the way to heaven and source of truth & life.
  9. I am the true vine (Jn 15:1) — Jesus is the source of spiritual life.
  10. I am the King of the Jews (Jn 19:21) — Jesus is the Eternal King of God’s Eternal Kingdom.
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Old 03-15-2018, 10:30 AM   #521
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Substitute? Who bestowed upon you the right and authority to go around substituting your man-made notions for the plain and clear words of the Scriptures? This kind of foolishness should be painfully familiar to you Boxjobox...Witness Lee was the substitute master. I think we've all noticed that you are a real stickler on wording and phrases if they seemingly match your Unitarian dogma, but when the plain, clear words point to the divinity of Jesus you want to switch gears into "substituting". Nice work if you can get it!


If you'll just put your chalk down for a minute or two and read what wise and spiritual men have been teaching and writing since the first generation of apostles, scholars, apologists and disciples, you would find out that these fellows spent a lot of time and effort to get a pretty firm handle on the Logos, as well as many other scriptural teachings and doctrines. We "don't have a background of where John is coming from?" Of course we do. John's background was an intimate 3+ year relationship under the discipleship and teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. His gospel is nothing more and nothing less then his giving the "good news" of what he was taught by Jesus himself. ALL OF IT is the gospel, not just the parts that align with our personal theology. Just who John was writing to is of little consequence, and pales in comparison to the original source of his teachings.
-
UntoHim someone substituted the Greek word LOGOS as WORD. Logos means a lot more than just WORD, of which Awareness amply explained. Your wise and spiritual studiers were mainly men under the edict of trinitarianism- kind of like scientist paid by global warmers to "study" climate.

All the apostles and others who followed Jesus were there at Pentecost and what was preached? The man Jesus, of whom God was with him, crucified according to the plan, idea of God, resurrected according to the plan, idea of God, and made Lord over all according to the plan, idea of God. So, yeah, think it is a reasonable way of looking at John's prologue to his gospel. It makes more sense then introducing some new gospel that was not preached throughout the book of Acts, nor by Paul , the apostle to the Gentiles. Scripture does not give us a step by step picture of John's life and ministry as it does with Paul, and somewhat with Peter. Peter, of course, was the one who Jesus said received the revelation from God, that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God, on which Jesus said he would build his church. Look how Peter preaches the gospel in Acts- no Jesus is God message there!
I know in your circle of trinitarian influence this really isn't looked at or considered, because a different package of beliefs are held, preached and taught, substantiated by wise, spiritual trinitarian scholars who studied it all, but unfortunately not found taught in the scripture, which we all cherish. When the teachings of men overshadow and define scripture, you enter into the realm of Thyatira.
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:02 AM   #522
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In the New Testament Jesus responded to a group of Jews who were questioning Him, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM” (Jn 8:58). Notice what Jesus did not say: He did not say, “Before Abraham was, I was”that might simply mean that He came into existence before Abraham; rather, He used the Name of God: “I AM.” There was never a time when Jesus came into being, or when He did not existtherefore He said, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” God transcends time… He exists outside of time… He is eternal!
The
Jesus’ application of the words “I am” to Himself not only denoted His preexistence but associated Him with Yahweh. Jesus used ego eimi (“I am” in Greek) in an absolute, unqualified sense (Jn 4:26; 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:5-8) to appropriate for Himself the Old Testament name of God (Ex 3:14). Jesus was the fulfillment of the promise given to Abraham (Jn 8:56). Incidentally, the Jews understood exactly what Jesus meant that He was claiming to be Yahweh! It was for this reason they sought to stone Him (Jn 8:59), because to them this was blasphemy!

The fact that Jesus claimed an explicit self-identification with Yahweh (Jn 8:58-59; 13:19-20), caused His opponents to ultimately have Him crucified (Mt 26:63-67; Mk 14:61-65; 15:2-3, 12-13; Lk 22:66-71; Jn 19:1-22). In the New Testament, many of Jesus’ “I am” sayings possess a subjective completion; by examining His “truth claims” we will gain a better understanding of exactly who He is. In short, Jesus made the following ten claims
  1. I am the Christ (Mt 26:63-64; Mk 14:61-62) — Jesus is the Messiah, God’s anointed One.
  2. I am the bread of life (Jn 6:35) — Jesus is our spiritual food.
  3. I am the light of the world (Jn 8:12) — Jesus gives us spiritual sight.
  4. I am the door (Jn 10:9) — Jesus is the way of salvation.
  5. I am the good shepherd (Jn 10:11) — Jesus provides us with spiritual guidance.
  6. I am the Son of God (Mt 26:63-64; 27:43; Lk 1:32; Jn 10:36; Rom 1:3) Jesus is God incarnate.
  7. I am the resurrection and the life (Jn 11:25) — Jesus is our spiritual life.
  8. I am the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6) Jesus is the way to heaven and source of truth & life.
  9. I am the true vine (Jn 15:1) — Jesus is the source of spiritual life.
  10. I am the King of the Jews (Jn 19:21) — Jesus is the Eternal King of God’s Eternal Kingdom.
Jesus' actual teaching “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”
**John‬ *17:3‬ *NKJV‬‬
Jesus seemed to emphasize ONLY and TRUE.

Jesus on the cross in Matt. “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?””
**Matthew‬ *27:46‬ *NKJV‬‬

Jesus on trial Mark. “But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.”
**Mark‬ *14:61-64‬ *NKJV‬‬

Luke ““If You are the Christ, tell us.” But He said to them, “If I tell you, you will by no means believe. And if I also ask you, you will by no means answer Me or let Me go. Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.” Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.” And they said, “What further testimony do we need? For we have heard it ourselves from His own mouth.””
**Luke‬ *22:67-71‬ *NKJV‬‬

“And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”

And an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.””
**Luke‬ *23:35, 38-39‬ *NKJV‬‬


John “Therefore, when the chief priests and officers saw Him, they cried out, saying, “Crucify Him, crucify Him! ” Pilate said to them, “You take Him and crucify Him, for I find no fault in Him.” The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and according to our law He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God.”

From then on Pilate sought to release Him, but the Jews cried out, saying, “If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar’s friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar.”

But they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him! Crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar!”

Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
**John‬ *19:6-7, 12, 15, 19‬ *NKJV‬‬


I fail to see your Jesus is God thing.

In your argument about egO eimi, which Jesus didn't speak Greek, but which somehow you link Aramaic to Greek to Hebrew to English, the healed blind man was also testifying that he is Yahweh “Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.” He said, “I am he. ””
**John‬ *9:9‬ *NKJV

If your egO eimi hypothesis is correct, and Jesus was telling people he is Yahweh, this would be so significant in teaching, you would think he would have taught it to the apostles, that the apostles would have preached it and taught it.
Don't see it in Matt, Mk, Lk, and I don't see it in John.

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Old 03-15-2018, 11:07 AM   #523
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If a fact is necessary for salvation wouldn't it be made perfectly clear? Show me where it is made perfectly clear that Jesus is God outside of the Gospel of John.
Whole lot of people saved, church founded based on Jesus being the Christ the son of the Living God. Then, according to the trinitarianists, John came of late, and the whole rules of the game changed!
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:07 PM   #524
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Whole lot of people saved, church founded based on Jesus being the Christ the son of the Living God.
Right. What do you suppose they thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant?

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Then, according to the trinitarianists, John came of late, and the whole rules of the game changed!
When the Gospel of John entered the canon, it was a game changer. According to John 1 the Logos that became flesh was God. There's no getting around it.
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:43 PM   #525
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When the Gospel of John entered the canon, it was a game changer. According to John 1 the Logos that became flesh was God. There's no getting around it.
More than likely it was a game changer long before the canon, relatively speaking.

But then there was the Philippines poem, c 40 years before John was written.
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Old 03-15-2018, 06:52 PM   #526
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More than likely it was a game changer long before the canon, relatively speaking.
Gospels that were excluded from the canon were largely forgotten, the opposite of "game changing."

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But then there was the Philippines poem, c 40 years before John was written.
The Philippians "poem" is ambiguous by comparison.
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Old 03-15-2018, 11:49 PM   #527
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Right. What do you suppose they thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant?



When the Gospel of John entered the canon, it was a game changer. According to John 1 the Logos that became flesh was God. There's no getting around it.
Luke does not record John stepping up and proclaim Jesus is God in his history of Acts. John does not say he wrote his gospel to tell us that Jesus is God, his epistles and Revelation do not proclaim Jesus as God, so why, 250 years later should I believe some council that said "believe it or be damned". And then murdered the ones who resisted their decree and destroyed opposing material. The game changer was really the council at Nicea. That's what molded Christian beliefs.

Compare that to Paul's letter to the Galatians. “Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
**Galatians‬ *1:1-5, 11-12‬ *NKJV‬‬ Does that sound more like what I'm talking about?

“Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.” **Galatians‬ *2:1-5‬ *NKJV‬‬
Paul is defending his gospel that he had been preaching for over 14 years.

“But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.

and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.”
**Galatians‬ *2:6, 9‬ *NKJV‬‬. The something's added nothing to Paul, and there is James, Peter and JOHN!

Paul is defending the gospel which he preaches and even says “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” *Galatians‬ *1:8-9‬ *NKJV‬‬

You would think the big three Peter, James and John would be schooling Paul in the trinity and compel him to preach Jesus as God, but that just isn't the case. Galatians is a compelling writing that refutes other gospel speaking. Paul did not preach trinitarianism. This is not even arguable!
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:52 AM   #528
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Luke does not record John stepping up and proclaim Jesus is God in his history of Acts. John does not say he wrote his gospel to tell us that Jesus is God, his epistles and Revelation do not proclaim Jesus as God, so why, 250 years later should I believe some council that said "believe it or be damned". And then murdered the ones who resisted their decree and destroyed opposing material. The game changer was really the council at Nicea. That's what molded Christian beliefs.

Compare that to Paul's letter to the Galatians. “Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
**Galatians‬ *1:1-5, 11-12‬ *NKJV‬‬ Does that sound more like what I'm talking about?

“Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.” **Galatians‬ *2:1-5‬ *NKJV‬‬
Paul is defending his gospel that he had been preaching for over 14 years.

“But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.

and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.”
**Galatians‬ *2:6, 9‬ *NKJV‬‬. The something's added nothing to Paul, and there is James, Peter and JOHN!

Paul is defending the gospel which he preaches and even says “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” *Galatians‬ *1:8-9‬ *NKJV‬‬

You would think the big three Peter, James and John would be schooling Paul in the trinity and compel him to preach Jesus as God, but that just isn't the case. Galatians is a compelling writing that refutes other gospel speaking. Paul did not preach trinitarianism. This is not even arguable!
I asked "What do you suppose they [referring to the preachers and their audience in Acts] thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant?" Did you answer the question? No. It's kind of like your having a different conversation with someone else.

If I thought you were doing this intentionally, I might call it a "straw man" argument where one gives the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. That, in effect, is what you're doing albeit perhaps unintentionally.

It seems, that you are a dogmatic antitrinitarian accustomed to arguing with dogmatic trinitatrians. I'm not either of these. I come to the Bible not as one who knows but as one who is learning. I'm trying to approach the scriptures objectively to see what they say not someone using the Bible as a proof text for what I already know.

As I noted before, translating logos as "idea" as you have done is supportable. However, then you are faced with the proposition "In the beginning was the idea. The idea was with God and the idea was God."

As the Idea was with God we see that the Idea and God are two. As the Idea was God, we are faced with the possibility of two Gods!

Now the major theme carried out in the Gospel of John is the relationship between these two --the Father and the Son to show that they are not only two but one and how they are one--the Son perfectly representing the Father in voluntary subjection and obedience.

So, let's try again beginning with the question "What do you suppose the preachers and their audience in Acts thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant? Perhaps the kind of theological exposition John presents hadn't entered their minds yet.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:47 AM   #529
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John did use the LOGOS in his gospel, but that metaphor cannot be abused or misused behind his original writing.

He also said that the Son is the LAMB of God. Shall we then reduce the Lord to a pair of warm wool socks?

I have heard others expound the LOGOS as the message, as the Son is the "message" of the Father, His story, or His explanation.

To explain the LOGOS as some fleeting thought of God in eons past is both disingenuous and contrary to John's Gospel.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:00 AM   #530
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The gospel messages recorded in Acts must be taken in context. When Paul went to Athens, his message greatly differed from what was given to Jews immediately following the crucifixion. We can not use that message to conclude that Paul disavowed the Deity of Christ or that he was against tongue-speaking.

Boxjobox is holed up in a stronghold that condemns all Christians and proves his position. The more he faces evidence to the contrary, the more hardened his fortifications.

Other than forcing me to search the scriptures, unending debate, without the input of new information, has little benefit in my mind. I rejoice that Boxjobox loves God and loves our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus!
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:06 AM   #531
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To explain the LOGOS as some fleeting thought of God in eons past is both disingenuous and contrary to John's Gospel.
Where do you see anybody here explaining the logos like that? John says the Logos became flesh. That should dispel any such notion. Boxjobox earlier interpreted the logos as God's plan and that the word becoming flesh meant that Jesus fulfilled God's plan. I don't think that does justice to the statement the immediacy of the statement "the word became flesh". But, it's a far cry from claiming that the logos was a fleeting thought.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:40 AM   #532
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Bro zeek, okay bro jobox didn't answer your specific question. But I think he did answer a big question.

Paul gets together with James, Peter and John. It's settled that Paul and Barnabas should go to the uncircumcised, and James, Peter, and John, should go after the circumcised.

Then he quotes Paul concerning any other gospel, "if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

Was the gospel attributed to John a different gospel, written by God knows who, 40 or 50 years after Paul wrote his warning, coming in by stealth, and then eventually accepted 100 or so years later as authoritative, and then a few hundred years later as canon, BY THE TRINITARIAN ORTHODOX?
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:45 AM   #533
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John did use the LOGOS in his gospel, but that metaphor cannot be abused or misused behind his original writing.

He also said that the Son is the LAMB of God. Shall we then reduce the Lord to a pair of warm wool socks?

I have heard others expound the LOGOS as the message, as the Son is the "message" of the Father, His story, or His explanation.

To explain the LOGOS as some fleeting thought of God in eons past is both disingenuous and contrary to John's Gospel.
Ohio, the main point to me with the logos prologue of John's gospel is that God's thought, idea, plan is not just a fleeting thought, but it is all encompassing. It is the reason for the entire creation. All things were made through, with a view of fulfilling His plan- apart from His plan, nothing was made. In philosophy there is nihilism- still very strong today, that all things are meaningless. John is writing that that is not the case, that the entire creation has a purpose, which is the purpose of God. Jesus, then is not a fluke, a random event, not one of many, but is the center and circumference of all of God's plan. I'm sure that John did not just sit down and compose some avant-garde gospel- there must have been a mindset going on wherever he was at that time that was going off in the wrong direction that he was addressing in a way he felt would reach them- maybe destruction of Jerusalem? Or what was leading up to it? You know, when Jesus was ministering many thought that he was The messiah that would physically get rid of the Romans, establish David's kingdom and free Israel from bondage. Christ came, was crucified (the king of the Jews, the I am the Christ) rose, and was taken up. So here it is 40 years later, and Jerusalem is heading for destruction- where was the fulfillment of God's promise for Israel? There had to be a lot of despair, doubt, misunderstanding etc., of Christ, of God, of what the future would be, of the Gentiles becoming believers, of the decline of Judaism. I think John was writing his gospel to shake up a very self destructive nihilistic element that felt they had been deceived. And John is giving them the business of God! Telling them that Christ is so much bigger than an earthly Davidic Israel.

Try reading through John with that view, and Jesus statements fall in line with this logos notion that God in, with and through everything about Christ. This also matches Paul's desire that God would grant a spirit of wisdom and revelation to the believers in Ephesus to see the glorious work God is doing to head up all things in Christ.

I realize this isn't an average trinitarian view of the gospel of John, where people get puffed up on the Jesus is God thing, but I think it matches the rest of the NT, that shows the glory of the plan of God being carried out. Even today, even among Christians, we may loose heart and wonder if Jesus is really building his church, if God really is doing anything, if the Holy Spirit is leading us. We need the gospel of John today more than ever! Nothing fleeting about the logos- it's what everything is about- the logos was with God and the logos was God. I think if it was just with God, it could be fleeting, but not if it IS God. That's solid. And at the right time, and in the right way, God sent Christ, His plan became real in the person, the flesh of Jesus.

Woah, I wrote all of this without quoting the good book? Now I'll probably be accused of footnote theology!
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:18 AM   #534
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Another thought about logos being God, and I'm sure to get slammed on this one, so UntoHim better get his big stick ready. In saying this, I'm not trying to mix man's philosophy with scripture, but to show human inquiry into our nature and the nature of God.

French philosopher Descartes wrote his famous line "I think, therefore I am". I'm thinking this would bring us closer to the concept John presents where the idea, the plan of God was more than just with Him, it was Him. John obviously had a goal of reaching a certain element by using logos. I think 2000 years later arguing about Jesus being God because the logos was God, is missing the main point of John's gospel. I'm sure if the main point in the cosmos was that Jesus is God, that God became a man, that God died, that the entire NT would have been written in a different way. There are just too many places where this thought would have been front and center- like Paul's gospel to the Romans. And the writers of the NT would not uniquely talk about God, the Father, the God of Jesus, nor would have Jesus talked in such a way.
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:19 AM   #535
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Bro zeek, okay bro jobox didn't answer your specific question. But I think he did answer a big question.

Paul gets together with James, Peter and John. It's settled that Paul and Barnabas should go to the uncircumcised, and James, Peter, and John, should go after the circumcised.

Then he quotes Paul concerning any other gospel, "if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

Was the gospel attributed to John a different gospel, written by God knows who, 40 or 50 years after Paul wrote his warning, coming in by stealth, and then eventually accepted 100 or so years later as authoritative, and then a few hundred years later as canon, BY THE TRINITARIAN ORTHODOX?
I don't know. Paul wasn't around to render a verdict on the Gospel of John. You and BoxjoBox could write a book. Call it "The Trinitarian Conspiracy". Who knows? It might sell to certain niche market.
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:45 AM   #536
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I don't know. Paul wasn't around to render a verdict on the Gospel of John.
A verdict? Well it was agreed Paul would go to the uncircumcised, and John to the circumcised. Then why was the gospel of John written in Greek, and not in Hebrew? Is there a verdict on that?
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Old 03-16-2018, 10:48 AM   #537
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A verdict? Well it was agreed Paul would go to the uncircumcised, and John to the circumcised. Then why was the gospel of John written in Greek, and not in Hebrew? Is there a verdict on that?
No, there isn't.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:05 PM   #538
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Where do you see anybody here explaining the logos like that?
Read it in his post ...

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Another thought about logos being God, and I'm sure to get slammed on this one...

French philosopher Descartes wrote his famous line "I think, therefore I am". I'm thinking this would bring us closer to the concept John presents where the idea, the plan of God was more than just with Him, it was Him. John obviously had a goal of reaching a certain element by using logos.
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:14 PM   #539
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A verdict? Well it was agreed Paul would go to the uncircumcised, and John to the circumcised. Then why was the gospel of John written in Greek, and not in Hebrew? Is there a verdict on that?
No book was written in Hebrew. Greek was the common, written language of the day.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:40 PM   #540
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Read it in his post ...
You said:

"To explain the LOGOS as some fleeting thought of God in eons past is both disingenuous and contrary to John's Gospel."

Boxjobox said:

"French philosopher Descartes wrote his famous line "I think, therefore I am". I'm thinking this would bring us closer to the concept John presents where the idea, the plan of God was more than just with Him, it was Him."

He admitted that the idea, "the plan of God" was more than just with God, it was God. He's getting closer. Now He just needs to admit that John says that the "idea" which was with God and was God became flesh, and he has accepted what John clearly states.
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:56 PM   #541
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You said:

"To explain the LOGOS as some fleeting thought of God in eons past is both disingenuous and contrary to John's Gospel."

Boxjobox said:

"French philosopher Descartes wrote his famous line "I think, therefore I am". I'm thinking this would bring us closer to the concept John presents where the idea, the plan of God was more than just with Him, it was Him."

He admitted that the idea, "the plan of God" was more than just with God, it was God. He's getting closer. Now He just needs to admit that John says that the "idea" which was with God and was God became flesh, and he has accepted what John clearly states.
Maybe Jobox dismisses the gospel of John as, "another gospel" Paul warned about.

And just because a bunch of trinitarian orthodox but in the canon doesn't necessarily make it the Word of God.

This is the kind of loony thinking back then:

"There are four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe; therefore, it is only right that there be four gospels."
--Church father Irenaeus, late 2nd century
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:37 PM   #542
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No book was written in Hebrew. Greek was the common, written language of the day.
So John, who was one of "the sons of thunder," who was to go the circumcised, lost out to the Greeks? No wonder we don't hear much about his activities, compared to those of Peter and Paul.
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:00 AM   #543
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Maybe Jobox dismisses the gospel of John as, "another gospel" Paul warned about.

And just because a bunch of trinitarian orthodox but in the canon doesn't necessarily make it the Word of God.

This is the kind of loony thinking back then:

"There are four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe; therefore, it is only right that there be four gospels."
--Church father Irenaeus, late 2nd century
I don't know. Boxjobox doesn't think like you. He doesn't seem to have questioned the teaching that the Gospel of John, the epistles of John and the the Book of Revelation were all written by John the disciple of Jesus.
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:35 AM   #544
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This is the kind of loony thinking back then:
"There are four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe; therefore, it is only right that there be four gospels."
--Church father Irenaeus, late 2nd century
Almost as loony as thinking that a bolt of lightening hit some random molecules floating around in a primordial soup - creating DNA, RNA and eventually every living thing. Some of the geniuses who come up with this loony garbage should be stand up comedians
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:35 AM   #545
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This is the kind of loony thinking back then:
"There are four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe; therefore, it is only right that there be four gospels."
--Church father Irenaeus, late 2nd century


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Almost as loony as thinking that a bolt of lightening hit some random molecules floating around in a primordial soup - creating DNA, RNA and eventually every living thing. Some of the geniuses who come up with this loony garbage should be stand up comedians
-
I know, the looniness never stops. Starts in Genesis one and follows up to today. Look at me. Look at us.

But Irenaeus overshot. Prolly, in this case, much to Jobox's delight. Cuz Irenaeus wrote in trinitarian terms, as in, the indwelling relations of Father, Son, and Spirit, and the cooperative divine work of all three.

So actually, following his logic, there should be only 3 gospels. It would make more and consistent theological sense than, four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe.

Jobox would be delighted cuz, then he could get rid of that pesky John.

But he'd still be stuck with the trinity.
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Old 03-17-2018, 09:41 AM   #546
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'Life would be tragic, if it wasn't so funny' - Stephen Hawking.
The greatest tragedy of all is facing God on judgment day and not being able to plead the blood of Jesus for your sins.

There's nothing funny about deceiving millions of people that there is no God.
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:55 AM   #547
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The greatest tragedy of all is facing God on judgment day and not being able to plead the blood of Jesus for your sins.
1 John 2:2 - It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:29 AM   #548
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1 John 2:2 - It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world's.
For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:49 AM   #549
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Now that we've condemned Stephen Hawking to the eternal flames -- let's say he was condemned to the tremendous heat of the Big Bang -- let's get back to the trinity.

So far I've claimed that humans are hardwired for the need of a human god. And I've also claimed that our need for a trinity is hardwired.

How about this for evidence :


A tetractys of the letters of the Tetragrammaton adds up to 72 by gematria.

The triangle, equal on all 3 sides ; the trinity of Yahweh ; the Tetragrammaton.

That's just more proof that we're hardwired for trinity's.

Jobox is fighting against, not the Bible, but against human nature.
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:50 AM   #550
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I asked "What do you suppose they [referring to the preachers and their audience in Acts] thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant?" Did you answer the question? No. It's kind of like your having a different conversation with someone else.

If I thought you were doing this intentionally, I might call it a "straw man" argument where one gives the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. That, in effect, is what you're doing albeit perhaps unintentionally.

It seems, that you are a dogmatic antitrinitarian accustomed to arguing with dogmatic trinitatrians. I'm not either of these. I come to the Bible not as one who knows but as one who is learning. I'm trying to approach the scriptures objectively to see what they say not someone using the Bible as a proof text for what I already know.

As I noted before, translating logos as "idea" as you have done is supportable. However, then you are faced with the proposition "In the beginning was the idea. The idea was with God and the idea was God."

As the Idea was with God we see that the Idea and God are two. As the Idea was God, we are faced with the possibility of two Gods!

Now the major theme carried out in the Gospel of John is the relationship between these two --the Father and the Son to show that they are not only two but one and how they are one--the Son perfectly representing the Father in voluntary subjection and obedience.

So, let's try again beginning with the question "What do you suppose the preachers and their audience in Acts thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant? Perhaps the kind of theological exposition John presents hadn't entered their minds yet.
I think the first 4 chapters of Acts gives a pretty good picture of what the apostles who hung out with Jesus and saw and heard all that he did, and saw him resurrected, and saw him taken up thought.

Ohio seems to think that John, 30 years later, came up with a more improved gospel, so in his hypothesis, you have the 30 years of what was preached and taught in Acts, and in the epistles, with a running cross referenced accounting between Mt, Mk, Lk, Acts, epistles minus John's stuff, and then along comes "John" with his material that is different. No history of John's change of view from the Acts account. No referenced material in Acts or the other gospels confirm the Jesus dialogues found in John. No clue as to what kind of people John was writing to- what prompted John to write in such a style? (And we all know how important the 2 or 3 witness thing was to the Jews to confirm a matter). But for reasons unknown, John's writings seem to take precedence over all else, and all else is then interpreted through John, and in particular, John 1, which sets up a Jesus is God scenario and through the use of John 1 , a Jesus is God, triune God thing is set up and established as the decree of the church. Then, people look for little clues in the non John material to justify their new gospel message. This whole thing goes on for 1700 years.

Today we live in a unique time- governments are no longer the Holy Roman Empire, information that was reserved for the few elite is now available instantaneously, large diversity in Christian thought, apostasy is rampant, science is at an epic, and Christ has not returned.

I think we Christians made a wrong turn in the 4th century, kept traveling down that wrong road, got lost in the thickets, and are now sitting at the crossroads and need to look carefully at the map and choose the road that will take us back home. I think it is well documented in the scripture that the apostles and early believers were not into a Jesus is God/trinity thing. Most today cleave to the 4th century belief in trinitarianism, which in this unique time needs to be abandoned as a lost road. We need to return to the Pauline gospel and admit that we were lost in the woods for all those years.

I think 1 and 2 Thessalonians gives a good view of what was thought of God and Christ.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:36 PM   #551
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For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Oh! a Bible battle!

1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
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Old 03-17-2018, 12:47 PM   #552
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Now that we've condemned Stephen Hawking to the eternal flames -- let's say he was condemned to the tremendous heat of the Big Bang -- let's get back to the trinity.

So far I've claimed that humans are hardwired for the need of a human god. And I've also claimed that our need for a trinity is hardwired.

How about this for evidence :


A tetractys of the letters of the Tetragrammaton adds up to 72 by gematria.

The triangle, equal on all 3 sides ; the trinity of Yahweh ; the Tetragrammaton.

That's just more proof that we're hardwired for trinity's.

Jobox is fighting against, not the Bible, but against human nature.
The history of man in the good book is quite worthy of pondering. Mankind created, naked an not ashamed, and dialogue with God. Snake tells them they can be like God! Cain kills Abel over religious practice. Cain backtalks to God and gains some clemency. Lamech uses the clemency argument to justify to his two wives his killing. Sons of God (what?) mingle with daughters of men. Flood. Noah and family saved. Tower of Babel- men trying to reach heaven!

Paul offered Timothy this one peculial thought---“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.”
**I Timothy‬ *4:9-11‬ *NKJV‬‬

Concerning Señor Hawking- it's always curious to me how an intellectual godless sort is admired among the Godless for their lofty godless profundity. Godlessness is a religion also. Then death comes, and the elephant in the room is Now What For Señor Hawking? Godlessness is short on answers for this terrible inconvenience of death.

I'll offer this plagiarized piece to Hawking



Out of the blue
and into the black
You pay for this,
but they give you that
And once you're gone,
you can't come back
When you're out of the blue
and into the black.

The king is gone
but he's not forgotten
Is this the story
of Johnny Rotten?
It's better to burn out
'cause rust never sleeps
The king is gone
but he's not forgotten.
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Old 03-17-2018, 01:07 PM   #553
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I think the first 4 chapters of Acts gives a pretty good picture of what the apostles who hung out with Jesus and saw and heard all that he did, and saw him resurrected, and saw him taken up thought.

Ohio seems to think that John, 30 years later, came up with a more improved gospel, so in his hypothesis, you have the 30 years of what was preached and taught in Acts, and in the epistles, with a running cross referenced accounting between Mt, Mk, Lk, Acts, epistles minus John's stuff, and then along comes "John" with his material that is different. No history of John's change of view from the Acts account. No referenced material in Acts or the other gospels confirm the Jesus dialogues found in John. No clue as to what kind of people John was writing to- what prompted John to write in such a style? (And we all know how important the 2 or 3 witness thing was to the Jews to confirm a matter). But for reasons unknown, John's writings seem to take precedence over all else, and all else is then interpreted through John, and in particular, John 1, which sets up a Jesus is God scenario and through the use of John 1 , a Jesus is God, triune God thing is set up and established as the decree of the church. Then, people look for little clues in the non John material to justify their new gospel message. This whole thing goes on for 1700 years.

Today we live in a unique time- governments are no longer the Holy Roman Empire, information that was reserved for the few elite is now available instantaneously, large diversity in Christian thought, apostasy is rampant, science is at an epic, and Christ has not returned.

I think we Christians made a wrong turn in the 4th century, kept traveling down that wrong road, got lost in the thickets, and are now sitting at the crossroads and need to look carefully at the map and choose the road that will take us back home. I think it is well documented in the scripture that the apostles and early believers were not into a Jesus is God/trinity thing. Most today cleave to the 4th century belief in trinitarianism, which in this unique time needs to be abandoned as a lost road. We need to return to the Pauline gospel and admit that we were lost in the woods for all those years.

I think 1 and 2 Thessalonians gives a good view of what was thought of God and Christ.
Sorry, but again you didn't answer the question I asked which was "What do you suppose they [referring to the preachers and their audience in Acts] thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant?" Instead you, again, answered what you think they didn't mean to them which is anything to do with a Trinitarian conception of God.

So, you have once again reinforced my impression you don't know the answer to my question. You apparently have an unexamined understanding of what the words "Christ" and "Son of God" meant to them that you can't explain. If you don't know what the terms meant, how can you judge whether or not the terms themselves entail divinity?
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Old 03-17-2018, 01:16 PM   #554
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Paul offered Timothy this one peculial thought---“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.”
**I Timothy‬ *4:9-11‬ *NKJV‬‬
You should not have quoted this verse, because I might once again believe that the living God is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe, and that would make me a terrible "trinitarian."

But we all know that the Savior is not God. God is the Father, and Christ is the Savior, and never the two shall meet. So says my Boxy friend.
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Old 03-17-2018, 03:15 PM   #555
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You should not have quoted this verse, because I might once again believe that the living God is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe, and that would make me a terrible "trinitarian."

But we all know that the Savior is not God. God is the Father, and Christ is the Savior, and never the two shall meet. So says my Boxy friend.
Ohio, your trinitarian cut and tape views are what keep you in the grand dillusion. Paul is writing a letter to Tim, take in the whole letter, rather than a snip with an over exaggerated snap.

Look at the opening statement of Paul to Tim. “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.**. I Timothy‬ *1:1-2‬

God our savior, God our Father. Lord Jesus Christ our hope, lLord Jesus Christ our Lord. Two entities talked about here God and Jesus. This is not a mingle, mingle hallelujah moment for you. Get into the apostle Paul's thought, don't mix and match ideas. Not that hard- it's really nomenclature 101. God is God, and Christ Jesus is the resurrected ascended, God given head. This is what Paul is constantly conveying.
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Old 03-17-2018, 03:30 PM   #556
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Sorry, but again you didn't answer the question I asked which was "What do you suppose they [referring to the preachers and their audience in Acts] thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant?" Instead you, again, answered what you think they didn't mean to them which is anything to do with a Trinitarian conception of God.

So, you have once again reinforced my impression you don't know the answer to my question. You apparently have an unexamined understanding of what the words "Christ" and "Son of God" meant to them that you can't explain. If you don't know what the terms meant, how can you judge whether or not the terms themselves entail divinity?
Zeek, Zeek, Zeek; what am I going to do with you, Zeek. I thought you would look through the 1st 4 chapters of Acts and see what everyone thought. The best I can tell about what people think is by their words. That IS my answer, what was discussed about Jesus in the 1st 4 chapters seems to me a groundwork of the rest of the book of Acts, which gives us a contemporary view of the time. People obviously had a lot of thoughts about Jesus then, from charlatan, to a prophet, to THE prophet, to a risen John the Bap., to Elija, to a spirit, to a good man, to a deceives, etc. Peter basically says a man anointed by God, God was with him, he was the promised one, scripture pointed out that he would suffer and be resurrected according to God's plan, that God lifted him up to the highest position.
I guess if you are asking me if son of God meant to them that Jesus was the Living God Himself- no that's not what they were saying.
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Old 03-17-2018, 03:37 PM   #557
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Sorry, but again you didn't answer the question I asked which was "What do you suppose they [referring to the preachers and their audience in Acts] thought "Christ" or "son of the Living God" meant?" Instead you, again, answered what you think they didn't mean to them which is anything to do with a Trinitarian conception of God.

So, you have once again reinforced my impression you don't know the answer to my question. You apparently have an unexamined understanding of what the words "Christ" and "Son of God" meant to them that you can't explain. If you don't know what the terms meant, how can you judge whether or not the terms themselves entail divinity?
And what is this divinity thing? Are angels divine? Are the 4 living creatures divine?

The N T tells us to hold on to the concept that there is One, True God, who we call Father. The Father is the God of creation, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, and our God. Are you saying there are lesser Gods? Inferior Gods? Are we God's? Scripture doesn't get heavy into that. God, our Father is the one to acknowledge as God. This divine thing leads to other gods.
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Old 03-17-2018, 03:39 PM   #558
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Oh! a Bible battle!

1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Glad to see you picked up on this. You posted it just as I was typing out post 337, and I used it also
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:03 PM   #559
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And what is this divinity thing? Are angels divine? Are the 4 living creatures divine?

The N T tells us to hold on to the concept that there is One, True God, who we call Father. The Father is the God of creation, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, and our God. Are you saying there are lesser Gods? Inferior Gods? Are we God's? Scripture doesn't get heavy into that. God, our Father is the one to acknowledge as God. This divine thing leads to other gods.
Wait. Before I answer your question allow me to let it sink in for a moment that once again you have not answered my questions about what does Christ and the Son of God mean.
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Old 03-17-2018, 07:23 PM   #560
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And what is this divinity thing? Are angels divine? Are the 4 living creatures divine?

The N T tells us to hold on to the concept that there is One, True God, who we call Father. The Father is the God of creation, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, and our God. Are you saying there are lesser Gods? Inferior Gods? Are we God's? Scripture doesn't get heavy into that. God, our Father is the one to acknowledge as God. This divine thing leads to other gods.
I defined the word divinity in posts #382, #397 and #412. According to my definition angels are not divine. The four living creatures seem to be angelic beings. What makes you suppose I'm saying there are lesser gods, inferior gods or that we are gods? Scripture says that the logos is God.
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Old 03-17-2018, 08:46 PM   #561
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Boxjobox , as you deny the Trinity, do you also believe that the Holy Spirit is God? If not, why not?
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Old 03-17-2018, 09:16 PM   #562
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On a lighter note, I saw this today and it cracked me up. I hope you all enjoy it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCwT
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Old 03-17-2018, 10:18 PM   #563
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On a lighter note, I saw this today and it cracked me up. I hope you all enjoy it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCwT
Donall and Conall are a hoot! Good one, JJ.
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:22 AM   #564
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I'll offer this plagiarized piece to Hawking



Out of the blue
and into the black
You pay for this,
but they give you that
And once you're gone,
you can't come back
In the Bible there's lots of odd stories. Revealing that, God's an odd fellow.

We're not God. We don't know. But God may have been inspiring Hawking. Methinks a God that would torture a man in this life with ALS, and then burn him forever, isn't much of a God to me ... lacking in the love that Jesus taught.

I'm going with Jesus, who ate with sinners, the unclean, and outcasts - prostitutes may enter in before all these sanctimonious Bible thumpers.
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Old 03-18-2018, 12:35 AM   #565
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In the Bible there's lots of odd stories. Revealing that, God's an odd fellow.

We're not God. We don't know. But God may have been inspiring Hawking. Methinks a God that would torture a man in this life with ALS, and then burn him forever, isn't much of a God to me ... lacking in the love that Jesus taught.

I'm going with Jesus, who ate with sinners, the unclean, and outcasts - prostitutes may enter in before all these sanctimonious Bible thumpers.
Amen
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:39 AM   #566
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In the Bible there's lots of odd stories. Revealing that, God's an odd fellow.

We're not God. We don't know. But God may have been inspiring Hawking. Methinks a God that would torture a man in this life with ALS, and then burn him forever, isn't much of a God to me ... lacking in the love that Jesus taught.

I'm going with Jesus, who ate with sinners, the unclean, and outcasts - prostitutes may enter in before all these sanctimonious Bible thumpers.
Agreed- I'm not into the eternal hell thing. But----Hawking was outspoken about the cosmos and didn't see a need for a God. It's interesting here on this little site, we debate the nature of God and all have personal beliefs and thoughts about God, Christ, the scripture, and God's people. Yet in this world there are a large group of people who do not acknowledge God, and look for support in their beliefs from wise souls such as Señor Hawking. To have a cosmos so expansive as we have seen from recent Hubble pictures, one either has to feel insignificant or very blessed to be alive. Then, as comes to everyone, death makes its appearance, and then there is the ultimate question what is life, what is consciousness, what is a "person"? I, for one, look to the scriptures, and find marvelous answers, yet at the same time, find giant questions.
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:59 AM   #567
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On a lighter note, I saw this today and it cracked me up. I hope you all enjoy it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCwT
This one is so true to the state of things- believe the creed, the creed tells us what to believe. I remember when I was a teenager reading Soul on Ice by Eldridge Clever. He was a kid in Sunday school and they were studying trinity. He said it was like 3 in one oil, and the teacher didn't like the comparison. He turned his back on Christianity partly because of this. Later, he did become a Christian.

Trinity teaching has became the ingrained belief system among Christians, and I would say it is taught as a superior to the scriptures.

They should do a little animation on how many people were tortured and murdered to put this belief system in place!

Can you imagine where the church would be today if instead of propagating this creed, and the beliefs and practices that followed it, that the scripture would have been taught, spoken and lived. Thank God we live in a time where we can discuss scripture in an open way.
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:07 AM   #568
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Boxjobox , as you deny the Trinity, do you also believe that the Holy Spirit is God? If not, why not?
Evangelical,
1) in the scripture there is no teaching by Jesus or the apostles about God being a trinity.
2) there is teaching by Jesus and Paul that there is one God, the Father
3) I try to follow the scripture.
4) God is God, and the Spirit is the Spirit
5) If the writers of scripture would have presented a triune God, and I did not accept it, then I would be a denier.
6) your argument seems to be that I deny something that doesn't exist!
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:15 AM   #569
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I defined the word divinity in posts #382, #397 and #412. According to my definition angels are not divine. The four living creatures seem to be angelic beings. What makes you suppose I'm saying there are lesser gods, inferior gods or that we are gods? Scripture says that the logos is God.
So, if you think Jesus is divine, what does that mean to you? Why use the term divine instead of God?

Also, if you look at your original question, it was not what I think, but it was what do I think the people back in beginning of the church thought about the terms Christ and Son of God. I can only answer by what I read, what they said.
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Old 03-18-2018, 09:46 AM   #570
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Agreed- I'm not into the eternal hell thing. But----Hawking was outspoken about the cosmos and didn't see a need for a God. It's interesting here on this little site, we debate the nature of God and all have personal beliefs and thoughts about God, Christ, the scripture, and God's people. Yet in this world there are a large group of people who do not acknowledge God, and look for support in their beliefs from wise souls such as Señor Hawking. To have a cosmos so expansive as we have seen from recent Hubble pictures, one either has to feel insignificant or very blessed to be alive. Then, as comes to everyone, death makes its appearance, and then there is the ultimate question what is life, what is consciousness, what is a "person"? I, for one, look to the scriptures, and find marvelous answers, yet at the same time, find giant questions.
Have you ever seen shows by Neil Degrasse Tyson? The guy is thrilled and filled with awe of the cosmos. He's even stated that that is all he needs for inspiration and joy.

Astrophysiology works with sizes that overflow the mind. And it's all confusing, enough already rather to introduce and allow for a noncorporeal unseeable realm that can't be scientifically measured or tested.

We can't bring the trinity into a lab and test it. All we've got is hermeneutics.

Just two weeks before his death Stephen Hawking submitted a research paper, entitled "A Smooth Exit from Eternal Inflation."

He predicts that our existence will fade into darkness when the stars run out of energy. And that other universes were created at the Big Bang, and we could measure the other universes using a detector on a spaceship.

Wild and crazy stuff. It would have been easier for him to find that sort of stuff in the Bible.

And concerning him going to hell? Hey, I know Christians that expect to see their pets in heaven. So who really knows?
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Old 03-19-2018, 02:58 AM   #571
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So, if you think Jesus is divine, what does that mean to you? Why use the term divine instead of God?
I use the word divine instead of God because it's an adjective. "Godly" doesn't fit when the subject is God's substance because it has come to have a behavioral connotation.

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Also, if you look at your original question, it was not what I think, but it was what do I think the people back in beginning of the church thought about the terms Christ and Son of God. I can only answer by what I read, what they said.
Yes I wanted to know if you understood what the writer or the players he was writing about meant. He might have had written texts of speeches that he was working from. Or he might have invented the speeches himself as historians of that time period often were moved to do. In other words, the speeches of the principle characters may reflect the writer's own viewpoint more or less.

My impression is that many Jews in first century Palestine had some kind of messianic expectation. Some expectations were more fantastical then others. So, some might have simply hoped that the messiah would be a political liberator who would drive out the occupiers and set up a new earthly kingdom.

But, the Book of Daniel opposes that view. It was probably written in opposition to the Maccabees who set up just that kind of earthly kingdom which became corrupt. Daniel depicts a supernatural divine intervention from heaven with a mysterious heavenly figure called "one like the son of man" [7:13] as the change agent. Jesus was identified with that figure by his early followers. Whether he self-identified with "the son of man" is another question.

In many cases Jesus refers to the son of man in the third person suggesting that he might have been waiting for this messiah figure himself. There's a theory that he went to Jerusalem expecting that if he took a stand for God's kingdom, God would send the son of man with the heavenly host to liberate Israel. [See Zechariah 14:4] If so, he was sadly disappointed as history records.

Incidentally, I think of the Gospel of John more as an early theological treatise in narrative form than I do an historical account. As a matter of fact, none of the gospels are merely historical records in my opinion. But, John puts words in the mouth of Jesus that seem to be a reflection of the author's theology rather than quotes from the Jesus we know from the other gospels.

So, this son of man figure--what to think of him? Is he God? Well no. By the time Daniel was written Judaism had evolved in a monotheistic direction. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. "

So, this son of man, is considered to be a "heavenly man" whatever that is. Certainly that isn't what we would call a man in modern parlance. More like an angelic being. Or a space alien. Be that as it may, Jesus is identified with this heavenly man when his followers search the scriptures after he dies.

Now, if you take a look at the shema: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." you can see the beginning of a problem in many of the verses that you like to quote that state that there is one God the father and one Lord Jesus. According to the shema, God and the Lord were the same person. Now, early Christians had split God and the Lord in two!

In the following centuries Christians struggled with that problem. They disagreed and called each other heretics. Out of the controversy was born the theological reflection that eventually led to the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity.
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:56 AM   #572
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If "divine" means the nature of God, then I confess that I don't know what that is. God is a mystery to me. The New Testament presents Jesus as the unique revelation of the character of God. I am able to accept an idealized view of that picture but I must admit there are aspects of it that are quite alien to me.



Yes I wanted to know if you understood what the writer or the players he was writing about meant. He might have had written texts of speeches that he was working from. Or he might have invented the speeches himself as historians of that time period often were moved to do. In other words, the speeches of the principle characters may reflect the writer's own viewpoint more or less.

My impression is that many Jews in first century Palestine had some kind of messianic expectation. Some expectations were more fantastical then others. So, some might have simply hoped that the messiah would be a political liberator who would drive out the occupiers and set up a new earthly kingdom.

But, the Book of Daniel opposes that view. It was probably written in opposition to the Maccabees who set up just that kind of earthly kingdom which became corrupt. Daniel depicts a supernatural divine intervention from heaven with a mysterious heavenly figure called the son of man as the change agent. I think Jesus was identified with that figure. Whether he self-identified with "the son of man" is another question.

In many cases Jesus refers to the son of man in the third person suggesting that he might have been waiting for this messiah figure himself. There's a theory that he went to Jerusalem expecting that if he took a stand for God's kingdom, God would send the son of man with the heavenly host to liberate Israel. [See Zechariah 14:4] If so, he was sadly disappointed as history records.

Incidentally, I think of the Gospel of John more as an early theological treatise in narrative form than I do an historical account. As a matter of fact, none of the gospels are merely historical records in my opinion. But, John puts words in the mouth of Jesus that seem to be a reflection of the author's theology rather than quotes from the Jesus we know from the other gospels.

So, this son of man figure--what to think of him? Is he God? Well no. By the time Daniel was written Judaism had evolved in a monotheistic direction. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. "

So, this son of man, is considered to be a "heavenly man" whatever that is. Certainly that isn't what we would call a man in modern parlance. More like an angelic being. Or a space alien. Be that as it may, Jesus is identified with this heavenly man when his followers search the scriptures after he dies.

Now, if you take a look at the shema: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." you can see the beginning of a problem in many of the verses that you like to quote that state that there is one God the father and one Lord Jesus. According to the shema, God and the Lord were the same person. Now, early Christian had split God and the Lord in two!

In the following centuries Christians struggled with that problem. They disagreed and called each other heretics. Out of the controversy was born the theological reflection that eventually led to the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity.
Zeek, thanks for this excellent presentation- lots to consider here. There was indeed a lot of controversy about the messiah at the time Jesus was on the scene. And it seems Jesus often played into that by presenting various aspects of the messiah to different groups and sects and forcing them to consider and even bicker among themselves. Mixed among that controversy, Jesus also performed significant miracles which showed God was with him. The Jews couldn't dismiss the miracles and so resorted to saying he was performing by the power of demons or Satan. At some point in his ministry, he asks the disciples who do men say that he was, and refers to himself as the son of man. Then asks who do you disciples say I am? Peter says the Christ, the son of the Living God. And Jesus says this revelation came from the Father, and he would build his church on this. Peter later preached this as the 1st gospel and 3000 believed, and that at the time there were Jews from all over the Roman Empire. That 1st gospel was pretty heavy duty if we consider the event of the baptism of the spirit, the many tongues, the diverse crowd, that it was not long after Jesus had been crucified, Jewish celebration that was going on etc, and Peter gives an in depth account of who Jesus was and what God did, and the state of Jesus after his resurrection and ascension. After this, the church was formed, the gospel spread, Paul came on the scene, apostles were gone, Jerusalem was destroyed, and then we have to rely on historical records to piece together the evolution of the whole thing that resulted in the Christianity we know today.

In my attempt to grasp the whole thing, I rely on Luke and Paul for foundation. I read James, Jude, Peter, and John. But Luke/Paul form my basis of my faith. As Paul says, I'll be judged by his gospel.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:12 AM   #573
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Have you ever seen shows by Neil Degrasse Tyson? The guy is thrilled and filled with awe of the cosmos. He's even stated that that is all he needs for inspiration and joy.

Astrophysiology works with sizes that overflow the mind. And it's all confusing, enough already rather to introduce and allow for a noncorporeal unseeable realm that can't be scientifically measured or tested.

We can't bring the trinity into a lab and test it. All we've got is hermeneutics.

Just two weeks before his death Stephen Hawking submitted a research paper, entitled "A Smooth Exit from Eternal Inflation."

He predicts that our existence will fade into darkness when the stars run out of energy. And that other universes were created at the Big Bang, and we could measure the other universes using a detector on a spaceship.

Wild and crazy stuff. It would have been easier for him to find that sort of stuff in the Bible.

And concerning him going to hell? Hey, I know Christians that expect to see their pets in heaven. So who really knows?
What I did notice yesterday was a news article from Turkey calling for a pan-Islam army to form to attack Israel. They figure a 5 million man army from 57 Islamic countries could eliminate their problem. The drums of war in the world seem to be getting louder. Big universe, but local earth events seem more pressing. Big universe- little Israel. Need for Messiah.

What did a war in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels look like? What constituted weapons of war, what did victory and defeat look like, and where exactly is heaven?
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:05 AM   #574
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What I did notice yesterday was a news article from Turkey calling for a pan-Islam army to form to attack Israel. They figure a 5 million man army from 57 Islamic countries could eliminate their problem. The drums of war in the world seem to be getting louder. Big universe, but local earth events seem more pressing. Big universe- little Israel. Need for Messiah.

What did a war in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels look like? What constituted weapons of war, what did victory and defeat look like, and where exactly is heaven?
Where is heaven? Look up. We're hanging spinning and revolving in it. Michael and Satan could be symbols for the clash of galaxies, and the like ; black holes at war.

And the pan-Islam army of 5 million? Can the Muslims do that without killing each other?

But do I hear the drums of war. Israel and Saudi Arabia want war with Iran, but they need America to do it. And Trump could use it to be great. Why else is he jacking up the military, and developing more precise nukes?

And all this doesn't belong on the trinity thread.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:46 PM   #575
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Evangelical,
1) in the scripture there is no teaching by Jesus or the apostles about God being a trinity.
2) there is teaching by Jesus and Paul that there is one God, the Father
3) I try to follow the scripture.
4) God is God, and the Spirit is the Spirit
5) If the writers of scripture would have presented a triune God, and I did not accept it, then I would be a denier.
6) your argument seems to be that I deny something that doesn't exist!
I think my point is that if you believe that God is God and the Spirit is the Spirit, then that is two gods, or a di-unity.

The Jews for example do not believe in a person called the "Holy Spirit" as distinct and separate from "the Father". They only believe in "God". I wondered if you also believe that.

If Jesus is not God as you say, then the Spirit cannot be God either?
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:19 AM   #576
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I think my point is that if you believe that God is God and the Spirit is the Spirit, then that is two gods, or a di-unity.

The Jews for example do not believe in a person called the "Holy Spirit" as distinct and separate from "the Father". They only believe in "God". I wondered if you also believe that.

If Jesus is not God as you say, then the Spirit cannot be God either?
ditheism, tritheism, yet God is all and in all. Sounds like a mystery to me. God works in mysterious ways.
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:03 AM   #577
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I think my point is that if you believe that God is God and the Spirit is the Spirit, then that is two gods, or a di-unity.

The Jews for example do not believe in a person called the "Holy Spirit" as distinct and separate from "the Father". They only believe in "God". I wondered if you also believe that.

If Jesus is not God as you say, then the Spirit cannot be God either?
Here is a couple of quotes from Paul the apostle, who I do my best to imitate his teaching.
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; .."**I Corinthians‬ *8:5-7‬ *NKJV‬‬

“I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” *Ephesians‬ *4:1-6‬ *

Your questioning seems to depart from Paul's statements. Paul is consistent in his work that God, the God and Father of Jesus, is the one we Christians are to acknowledge as God. I'm curious how you got dissuaded from this and into a split personality god. Do you reject Paul and his teachings, or consider them inferior to someone else's?
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:47 AM   #578
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Where is heaven? Look up. We're hanging spinning and revolving in it. Michael and Satan could be symbols for the clash of galaxies, and the like ; black holes at war.

And the pan-Islam army of 5 million? Can the Muslims do that without killing each other?

But do I hear the drums of war. Israel and Saudi Arabia want war with Iran, but they need America to do it. And Trump could use it to be great. Why else is he jacking up the military, and developing more precise nukes?

And all this doesn't belong on the trinity thread.
On one hand, no, it doesn't belong in the discussion, but on the other hand, we are talking about God, Christ, and the scripture as related to a strange, prevalent teaching about a triune god. God, who was thought of as one by the children of Israel since the time of Moses, had heaven as His dwelling place in their scripture. Israel, on the earth, was promised a certain area of land, yet there was much prophesy about all the things that would happen concerning them and that land, and the nations. Jesus, the promised messiah came to them, was crucified, God raised him from the dead, and he was taken up to heaven. Jesus, according to the scripture, was given the position above all other positions.

What exactly is Jesus' function in this role in heaven and/ or on earth. To determine this, may give insight into the question at hand. For instance, he takes a book/scroll from aaahemmm, God, and opens the seals of the scroll, which creates certain circumstances on earth, and which also affect heaven.

Jesus also is among the 7 churches. 5 of them seem to have problems, some major, one is suffering, and one seems to be up to standard, which one he promises to reward with various things from his God.

But during this war in heaven, which results in ugly things happening on earth, where is Jesus? And Michael seems to be waging some kind of war against Satan- an angelic war. Was there a contingency plan if Michael did not prevail?

So all of this stuff in heaven and on earth, things we read about from the writing of John, doesn't leave me with the idea that all things are glorious in heaven, earth or the church(es). And here we are discussing whether one can find scriptures to convince that Jesus is or isn't God, or that God is one or has a triple personality.
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Old 03-21-2018, 12:28 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Here is a couple of quotes from Paul the apostle, who I do my best to imitate his teaching.
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; .."**I Corinthians‬ *8:5-7‬ *
Relevance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
“I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” *Ephesians‬ *4:1-6‬ *
You do realize that right there in the last sentence is a statement suggesting the co-equality of the persons of the Trinity... One Spirit, One Lord and One Father, don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Your questioning seems to depart from Paul's statements. Paul is consistent in his work that God, the God and Father of Jesus, is the one we Christians are to acknowledge as God. I'm curious how you got dissuaded from this and into a split personality god. Do you reject Paul and his teachings, or consider them inferior to someone else's?
Well, not to presume to answer for Evangelical, but I would start with a point that I made before...that Paul split the shema. In the so-called Old Testament it was “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! There was one God and one Lord and lo and behold they were the same person. Now, with Paul, there's one Lord--Jesus and one God--the Father. That's two different people there. Something changed. They went from worshiping one person to worshiping two. You don't see a problem there?
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:55 PM   #580
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On one hand, no, it doesn't belong in the discussion, but on the other hand, we are talking about God, Christ, and the scripture as related to a strange, prevalent teaching about a triune god. God, who was thought of as one by the children of Israel since the time of Moses, had heaven as His dwelling place in their scripture. Israel, on the earth, was promised a certain area of land, yet there was much prophesy about all the things that would happen concerning them and that land, and the nations. Jesus, the promised messiah came to them, was crucified, God raised him from the dead, and he was taken up to heaven. Jesus, according to the scripture, was given the position above all other positions.

What exactly is Jesus' function in this role in heaven and/ or on earth. To determine this, may give insight into the question at hand. For instance, he takes a book/scroll from aaahemmm, God, and opens the seals of the scroll, which creates certain circumstances on earth, and which also affect heaven.

Jesus also is among the 7 churches. 5 of them seem to have problems, some major, one is suffering, and one seems to be up to standard, which one he promises to reward with various things from his God.

But during this war in heaven, which results in ugly things happening on earth, where is Jesus? And Michael seems to be waging some kind of war against Satan- an angelic war. Was there a contingency plan if Michael did not prevail?

So all of this stuff in heaven and on earth, things we read about from the writing of John, doesn't leave me with the idea that all things are glorious in heaven, earth or the church(es). And here we are discussing whether one can find scriptures to convince that Jesus is or isn't God, or that God is one or has a triple personality.
Can a god that has Multiple Personality Disorder still be God the Most High? Can a god that's not above all and in control of all be God the Most High?

I'm reading "The Forgotten books of Eden. In it is the "First book of Adam and Eve," also called, "The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan."

It goes without saying, these books are non-canonical. However, in The First book of Adam and Eve, God tells Adam that he will have salvation when God takes on flesh :

""But I will. When I shall come down from heaven, and shall become flesh of thy seed, and take upon Me the infirmity from which thou sufferest, then the darkness that came upon thee in this cave shall come upon Me in the grave, when I am in the flesh of thy seed. 5 "And I, who am without years, shall be subject to the reckoning of years, of times, of months, and of days, and I shall be reckoned as one of the sons of men, in order to save thee.""
-- Platt Jr., Rutherford H.. The Forgotten Books of Eden (p. 22). Evinity Publishing Inc. Kindle Edition.


Of course this is not the Bible. But it does represent what Christians came to believe.

One, like jobox, could say, see what happens when you don't stick to the word of God. But then couldn't the same be said of the early Christians, with the OT, especially whoever wrote the gospel we call John.

And by the way, I've seen the book of Revelation spoken of as from the same author of that gospel. But how do we know, if we don't know who wrote it? And how do we know what "John" wrote Revelation? All we know is John of Patmos.

At any rate, these Forgotten Books of Eden reveal what wild imaginations Christians had back in those days.
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:54 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Here is a couple of quotes from Paul the apostle, who I do my best to imitate his teaching.
“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; .."**I Corinthians‬ *8:5-7‬ *NKJV‬‬

“I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” *Ephesians‬ *4:1-6‬ *

Your questioning seems to depart from Paul's statements. Paul is consistent in his work that God, the God and Father of Jesus, is the one we Christians are to acknowledge as God. I'm curious how you got dissuaded from this and into a split personality god. Do you reject Paul and his teachings, or consider them inferior to someone else's?
Very well, all holds true in regards to my questioning regards the Spirit. Suppose you are correct, that Jesus is not God. I would say it is easy to argue, since Jesus was a man. But how do you address the Spirit? Is the Spirit God? Is the Spirit separate from God the Father?

If I am to understand your interpretation of Paul correctly, Ephesians‬ *4:1-6‬ can be interpreted as:

There is one God and Father - the "only true God". There is no other God, no Jesus, no angel, no Spirit.

To follow your line of reasoning, There is one Spirit, who is NOT God.

Remember that the Trinity exists not only to explain how Jesus can be divine and be a man, but also to explain the curious thing called the Spirit which Jesus referred to as a "him" and another person in John 14:16, 26. If the Spirit is God then we have a di-unity at least - the person of the Father and the person of the Spirit. If the Spirit is not God then this brings even more difficulties into the discussion.
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:00 AM   #582
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This website teaches "Biblical Unitarianism" which seems to be identical to what Boxjobox professes http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:42 AM   #583
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Relevance?



You do realize that right there in the last sentence is a statement suggesting the co-equality of the persons of the Trinity... One Spirit, One Lord and One Father, don't you?



Well, not to presume to answer for Evangelical, but I would start with a point that I made before...that Paul split the shema. In the so-called Old Testament it was “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! There was one God and one Lord and lo and behold they were the same person. Now, with Paul, there's one Lord--Jesus and one God--the Father. That's two different people there. Something changed. They went from worshiping one person to worshiping two. You don't see a problem there?
Ephesians 4 is preceded by 1 2 and 3. The thought in 4 is not some stand alone spiritual nut and shell game. Paul's language in 1-3 is concerning the God of Jesus, who raised him from the dead and made Jesus Lord. The Lordship of God is intrinsic in who he is-the creator of all,the master of all, the potter of the clay. We are privileged through Christ, to call this one who is our creator, Father. This is not a small matter, but occupies much of the thought of the NT, and should be our thought as well. It was definitely the thought of Jesus, who had no problem speaking about his God and Father. The Lordship of Christ is not intrinsic, but was bestowed on Jesus the Christ as a reward for his redemptive work. Paul in 1-3 is laboring to explain this work which God has done. Paul wants us to see it, lay hold of it, live it, as an encompassing revelation. Paul points out that we are intricately interwoven with this work which He did in, with, and through Jesus. Paul is not giving us some sort of understanding about Jesus being God, a triune God, God becoming a man fable. If he did, then we would not be having this dialogue, because it would be the teaching!
Seems to me you are too hung up on this one Lord, two Lord thing, like there is some sort of hidden cryptic meaning waiting to be discovered. Ephesians 4, Paul says our oneness acknowledges the work God has done in making Jesus Lord over all, and still clearly places our thinking that there is one God, the Father. The thinking, the language couldn't be more straightforward that we wouldn't want to take the one whom God lifted up to the most lofty position in creation, and make him into God. Paul clearly defines God as the God of Jesus, same as Jesus did.
In looking at some of other's posts, it is quite apparent that trinitarianism has twisted meaning and spiritual thinking so that the meaning and deep profoundness of God's work presented in Ephesians, and the NT is lost and has created a false religion, with false gods, false teachings. The clash and debates on this thread is really truth vs trinitarianism.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:48 AM   #584
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This website teaches "Biblical Unitarianism" which seems to be identical to what Boxjobox professes http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/
Thanks, I'll have to check that out and compare my thinking to theirs. It's always good to know one isn't alone in perception.
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:00 AM   #585
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Very well, all holds true in regards to my questioning regards the Spirit. Suppose you are correct, that Jesus is not God. I would say it is easy to argue, since Jesus was a man. But how do you address the Spirit? Is the Spirit God? Is the Spirit separate from God the Father?

If I am to understand your interpretation of Paul correctly, Ephesians‬ *4:1-6‬ can be interpreted as:

There is one God and Father - the "only true God". There is no other God, no Jesus, no angel, no Spirit.

To follow your line of reasoning, There is one Spirit, who is NOT God.

Remember that the Trinity exists not only to explain how Jesus can be divine and be a man, but also to explain the curious thing called the Spirit which Jesus referred to as a "him" and another person in John 14:16, 26. If the Spirit is God then we have a di-unity at least - the person of the Father and the person of the Spirit. If the Spirit is not God then this brings even more difficulties into the discussion.
Evangelical, I'm only presenting what I read in the scripture- one God, the Father. I notice you call the Spirit " the curious thing" My, My, My!

Then there is Revelation where there are 7 Spirits BEFORE the throne! You need to upgrade the tri to nineune to include the new and improved god. After all, the explanation needs to cover all the components.

It's hard to remember that the Trinity exists because the scripture does not refer to such a beast. And if you consider the state of Christianity, the trinity is more than an explanation- it is a god, a god who has replaced the one, true God, the Father.
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:08 AM   #586
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Can a god that has Multiple Personality Disorder still be God the Most High? Can a god that's not above all and in control of all be God the Most High?

I'm reading "The Forgotten books of Eden. In it is the "First book of Adam and Eve," also called, "The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan."

It goes without saying, these books are non-canonical. However, in The First book of Adam and Eve, God tells Adam that he will have salvation when God takes on flesh :

""But I will. When I shall come down from heaven, and shall become flesh of thy seed, and take upon Me the infirmity from which thou sufferest, then the darkness that came upon thee in this cave shall come upon Me in the grave, when I am in the flesh of thy seed. 5 "And I, who am without years, shall be subject to the reckoning of years, of times, of months, and of days, and I shall be reckoned as one of the sons of men, in order to save thee.""
-- Platt Jr., Rutherford H.. The Forgotten Books of Eden (p. 22). Evinity Publishing Inc. Kindle Edition.


Of course this is not the Bible. But it does represent what Christians came to believe.

One, like jobox, could say, see what happens when you don't stick to the word of God. But then couldn't the same be said of the early Christians, with the OT, especially whoever wrote the gospel we call John.

And by the way, I've seen the book of Revelation spoken of as from the same author of that gospel. But how do we know, if we don't know who wrote it? And how do we know what "John" wrote Revelation? All we know is John of Patmos.

At any rate, these Forgotten Books of Eden reveal what wild imaginations Christians had back in those days.
Exactly what days were "those days"? What time period was this written, and who wrote it? Does it have an author or is it a compilation of maybe Essene teachings?
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:45 AM   #587
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Exactly what days were "those days"? What time period was this written, and who wrote it? Does it have an author or is it a compilation of maybe Essene teachings?
I don't follow your question. Are you asking about the gospel of John, Revelation, or The First Book of Adam and Eve.

The gospel of John = End of first century.
Revelation = End of the first century
Adam and Eve = end of 3rd century, tho copies come from 5th & 6th century (I think)

Here's another from Adam and Eve :

In the story Adam was so distraught that God would have to suffer for his transgression in the garden that he threw himself off a cliff and died. Eve followed and died. God has mercy on them and brought them back to life. Then they used their blood as an offering to God.

Then came the Word of God to Adam, and said unto him, "O Adam, as thou hast shed thy blood, so will I shed My own blood when I become flesh of thy seed; and as thou didst die, O Adam, so also will I die. And as thou didst build an altar, so also will I make for thee an altar on the earth; and as thou didst offer thy blood upon it, so also will I offer My blood upon an altar on the earth. 5 "And as thou didst sue for forgiveness through that blood, so also will I make My blood forgiveness of sins, and blot out transgressions in it.
-- Platt Jr., Rutherford H.. The Forgotten Books of Eden (p. 28). Evinity Publishing Inc. Kindle Edition.
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:36 PM   #588
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Evangelical, I'm only presenting what I read in the scripture- one God, the Father. I notice you call the Spirit " the curious thing" My, My, My!

Then there is Revelation where there are 7 Spirits BEFORE the throne! You need to upgrade the tri to nineune to include the new and improved god. After all, the explanation needs to cover all the components.

It's hard to remember that the Trinity exists because the scripture does not refer to such a beast. And if you consider the state of Christianity, the trinity is more than an explanation- it is a god, a god who has replaced the one, true God, the Father.

Do you think the person of the Spirit also replaces the one true God, the Father? You don't seem able to answer this plainly. Who or what is the Spirit? God or not? Is the Spirit God? Is the Spirit the Father or another distinct being?
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:55 AM   #589
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Do you think the person of the Spirit also replaces the one true God, the Father? You don't seem able to answer this plainly. Who or what is the Spirit? God or not? Is the Spirit God? Is the Spirit the Father or another distinct being?
According to an article on the Holy Spirit on the "Biblical Unitarian" website that seems to agree with Boxjobox in most regards :
Quote:
Since “the only true God” is “the Father,” and since He is “holy” and He is “spirit,” He is also referred to in Scripture as “the Holy Spirit.”
I don't know if Boxjobox has thought of this or if he will agree. Boxjobox?

Of course John 4:24 "God is Spirit" could be interpreted this way. It also would seem consistent with the many One God the Father and one Lord Jesus statements. It does explain verses in John that make the Spirit seem like a third person:
Quote:
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
I
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
That's a problem that the Biblical Unitarians need to explain.
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:50 AM   #590
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Do you think the person of the Spirit also replaces the one true God, the Father? You don't seem able to answer this plainly. Who or what is the Spirit? God or not? Is the Spirit God? Is the Spirit the Father or another distinct being?
We've been asking about the Spirit over and over again. Our dear brother jobox doesn't seem to have a reasonable answer. Tho it's a pretty simple question : Is the Holy Ghost God or not? And don't dodge it with the 7 spirits.

The reason this concerns me is not for technical reasons. I have no other choice for communing with God but thru the Spirit. Those 7 crazy spirits, spoken of in the cartoon book of the NT, don't concern me. They're up there, and I'm down here.

Hey. What do I know? The Holy Spirit might be Gods' FedEx for all I know. But to me it's God. Surely it must be ... or considering the Spirit is omnipresent it's got to be God, or another god of some kind ... which strikes me as crazy. Surely there's not REAL gods running around everywhere. That would make the spiritual realm insane ... and would diminish God's power to the point of not being God.

Jobox has got to answer this question. I'll let him slide on the name and gender of the Holy Spirit, but not on the question of if it's God or not.
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:55 AM   #591
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Ephesians 4 is preceded by 1 2 and 3. The thought in 4 is not some stand alone spiritual nut and shell game. Paul's language in 1-3 is concerning the God of Jesus, who raised him from the dead and made Jesus Lord. The Lordship of God is intrinsic in who he is-the creator of all,the master of all, the potter of the clay. We are privileged through Christ, to call this one who is our creator, Father. This is not a small matter, but occupies much of the thought of the NT, and should be our thought as well. It was definitely the thought of Jesus, who had no problem speaking about his God and Father. The Lordship of Christ is not intrinsic, but was bestowed on Jesus the Christ as a reward for his redemptive work.
OK. So it seems that according to these statement that God the Father didn't retain his Lordship but bestowed it on Jesus. Is that your understanding? Otherwise we would have two lords and Paul plainly states there is only one.

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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Paul in 1-3 is laboring to explain this work which God has done. Paul wants us to see it, lay hold of it, live it, as an encompassing revelation. Paul points out that we are intricately interwoven with this work which He did in, with, and through Jesus. Paul is not giving us some sort of understanding about Jesus being God, a triune God, God becoming a man fable. If he did, then we would not be having this dialogue, because it would be the teaching!

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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Seems to me you are too hung up on this one Lord, two Lord thing, like there is some sort of hidden cryptic meaning waiting to be discovered.
I don't know what you mean. The problem of two Lord's is not hidden. Apparently it was thought that God bestowed his lordship on Jesus. But, you still have a religion with two focal points--God the Father and the Lord Jesus. People are going to be inclined to make one or the other supreme. From the standpoint of ultimate power that would be God. But, from the standpoint of familiarity it's would be Jesus because since he seems more human, he seems a bit easier to understand. Psychologically, people are going to be driven to seek oneness. Which will it be, God the Father or Jesus the Son?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Ephesians 4, Paul says our oneness acknowledges the work God has done in making Jesus Lord over all, and still clearly places our thinking that there is one God, the Father. The thinking, the language couldn't be more straightforward that we wouldn't want to take the one whom God lifted up to the most lofty position in creation, and make him into God. Paul clearly defines God as the God of Jesus, same as Jesus did.
In looking at some of other's posts, it is quite apparent that trinitarianism has twisted meaning and spiritual thinking so that the meaning and deep profoundness of God's work presented in Ephesians, and the NT is lost and has created a false religion, with false gods, false teachings. The clash and debates on this thread is really truth vs trinitarianism.
You are used to arguing with Trinitarians. You don't seem to understand my POV. The early Christians identified Jesus of Nazareth with the "one like the son of man" in Daniel:

Quote:
Daniel 7:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Nevertheless, the early Christian's devotion to Jesus became a problem for the most Jews who viewed it as blasphemous. Seems they were "hung up" on the "one Lord two Lord thing" too. I think that's significant. I'm entertaining the idea that difficulties in the New Testament picture led to the evolution of Trinitarianism over the ensuing centuries. But, it's clear that, early on, this Christian view was rejected by most Jews so the evangelists had to turn to the pagans for converts.
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:02 AM   #592
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We've been asking about the Spirit over and over again. Our dear brother jobox doesn't seem to have a reasonable answer. Tho it's a pretty simple question : Is the Holy Ghost God or not? And don't dodge it with the 7 spirits.

The reason this concerns me is not for technical reasons. I have no other choice for communing with God but thru the Spirit. Those 7 crazy spirits, spoken of in the cartoon book of the NT, don't concern me. They're up there, and I'm down here.

Hey. What do I know? The Holy Spirit might be Gods' FedEx for all I know. But to me it's God. Surely it must be ... or considering the Spirit is omnipresent it's got to be God, or another god of some kind ... which strikes me as crazy. Surely there's not REAL gods running around everywhere. That would make the spiritual realm insane ... and would diminish God's power to the point of not being God.

Jobox has got to answer this question. I'll let him slide on the name and gender of the Holy Spirit, but not on the question of if it's God or not.
The question on this thread is about a thing called trinity- a conglomerate god, and if this god is consistent with the Bible. The real point of contention is the Jesus is God controversy. I point out that Jesus and Paul clearly say that the one, unique, true God is the Father. Jesus is not preached as being God. The setup is that God had a plan, and that that plan was to head up all creation in Christ. Christ being the promised one that would redeem and lead all back to God. That plan included the blood sacrifice of the Christ for redemption. That Christ is Jesus. Jesus was raised from the dead, ascended to heaven and was given as a reward for his redemptive work the preeminent position over all created things. There is now the old creation and the new creation the church. I think, generally, that the old creation is not subjects of Christ's Lordship, and that is what is being worked out today- Sit on my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. Jesus talked a lot about the appearance of the kingdom of heaven during this age, an how it was a messy thing. There is indeed a lot of gods running around causing a lot of havoc, there are a lot of lords ruling the realm of man, there are a lot of spirits squawking all over the place, and there is a lot of confusion in the realm of the church, which is still in the middle of the old creation. Paul, in Ephesians, is laboring for us to get the big picture, and lay hold of what God did and is doing to head up all things in Christ. In that treatise Paul points out one God, the Father, one Lord, Jesus, one faith, one Spirit, one body, one baptism. In that treatise his petitions are to the God of Jesus, the Father, that God's people in Ephesus would see and participate in this which God has brought about.

It seems so odd that we Christians dismiss this in favor of a different definition of God. If trinitarianism had not been declared the Christian dogma, and forced upon the church for so many generations, there would be an entirely different expression today. Can you imagine if the church would have picked up Paul's treatise in Ephesians as our dogma? In that there is the clear teaching of acknowledging one God, the Father. Trinitarianism is an aberration which has plagued the church. It set Jesus up as God himself, and the real revelation presented in Ephesians is gone.

The Spirit is a side issue in this discussion, as it was in the Nicene creed. A discussion of the Spirit would only sidetrack. The real issue is the setting of Jesus as God. Spirit and breath are the same word, are they not?
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:35 AM   #593
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According to an article on the Holy Spirit on the "Biblical Unitarian" website that seems to agree with Boxjobox in most regards : I don't know if Boxjobox has thought of this or if he will agree. Boxjobox?

Of course John 4:24 "God is Spirit" could be interpreted this way. It also would seem consistent with the many One God the Father and one Lord Jesus statements. It does explain verses in John that make the Spirit seem like a third person:


That's a problem that the Biblical Unitarians need to explain.
I don't identify with sects, so I can't answer for Biblical Unitarians.

But John, John, John. This fellow sure offers a lot of clarity!? It was John who wrote ““But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”
**John‬ *15:26-27‬ *NKJV‬‬

So you have Acts 2- Spirit comes, Apostles witness, and what do they say about Jesus? Look throughout the book of Acts- no witness that Jesus is God- that should tell us all something!

And John recorded ““I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.”
**John‬ *16:12-15‬ *NKJV‬‬. So Paul tells the Corinthians that there is one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus the Christ. It would be up to you to decide if this was from the Spirit, or if Paul was speaking of his own volition. Seems to me that Paul was trying to correct the exact issue you are talking about.

“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’**Revelation‬ *3:12-13‬ *NKJV‬‬

There is that pesky old Spirit again, witnessing about the God of Jesus.
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:52 AM   #594
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I don't identify with sects, so I can't answer for Biblical Unitarians.
I think "Biblical Unitarian" is an apt name for your position.

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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
But John, John, John. This fellow sure offers a lot of clarity!? It was John who wrote ““But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”
**John‬ *15:26-27‬ *NKJV‬‬
Sounds like a different person than God the father. So if the Spirit isn't God, you've got another supernatural being. Your heaven is full of them.



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So you have Acts 2- Spirit comes, Apostles witness, and what do they say about Jesus? Look throughout the book of Acts- no witness that Jesus is God- that should tell us all something!

It could tell you that the authors of Luke/Acts and John had different opinions about Jesus. That's a simple explanation. Got a better one?

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There is that pesky old Spirit again, witnessing about the God of Jesus.
Pesky for you, cuz your theology can't seem to account for him.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:17 AM   #595
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OK. So it seems that according to these statement that God the Father didn't retain his Lordship but bestowed it on Jesus. Is that your understanding? Otherwise we would have two lords and Paul plainly states there is only one.
I didn't say God gave up His Lordship. It is more about the realm of power and the realm of position I would say. Paul tells the Corinthians emphatically that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.

The trinitarian Jesus is God thing has people praying to Jesus for wealth, healing, blessing, needs etc. Matthew has 3 chapters of Jesus emphasizing the petitioning of God. And teaches the prayer Our Father. Jesus' whole life was one of praying to God, and looking up to heaven.




Quote:
I don't know what you mean. The problem of two Lord's is not hidden. Apparently it was thought that God bestowed his lordship on Jesus. But, you still have a religion with two focal points--God the Father and the Lord Jesus. People are going to be inclined to make one or the other supreme. From the standpoint of ultimate power that would be God. But, from the standpoint of familiarity it's would be Jesus because since he seems more human, he seems a bit easier to understand. Psychologically, people are going to be driven to seek oneness. Which will it be, God the Father or Jesus the Son?
Correct, there are two focal points in what the NT presents for the believer. Paul's epistles work on this understanding, as does 1 John. The problem is veering off from this and creating another religion.


Quote:
You are used to arguing with Trinitarians. You don't seem to understand my POV. The early Christians identified Jesus of Nazareth with the "one like the son of man" in Daniel:



Nevertheless, the early Christian's devotion to Jesus became a problem for the most Jews who viewed it as blasphemous. Seems they were "hung up" on the "one Lord two Lord thing" too. I think that's significant. I'm entertaining the idea that difficulties in the New Testament picture led to the evolution of Trinitarianism over the ensuing centuries. But, it's clear that, early on, this Christian view was rejected by most Jews so the evangelists had to turn to the pagans for converts.
I have to say, I don't understand your beliefs- perhaps it would be good to share your view of the cosmos in a brief statement. I know I have, and then it's there for everyone to hack up, question, condemn, and discuss. Give us your present state of beliefs.

The Jews had various views on what the messiah would look like. Many were not in agreement with the preaching that Jesus was that messiah. Others realized that the scriptures were not prophesying about a earthly Davidic type kingdom that the Christ would reign- Lord over. But a heaven to earth one- the ladder that connected the heaven to earth. I don't see that there is this 2 Lord issue, until some started lifting Jesus above the position God gave him and set him up as God. The Jews were then decimated, the evolution of thought and church ruling occurred until one decree was produced which solidified a new world wide religion. Then came the printing press, the scriptures were readily available to many, and today we are at a crucial point.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:27 AM   #596
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Do you think the person of the Spirit also replaces the one true God, the Father? You don't seem able to answer this plainly. Who or what is the Spirit? God or not? Is the Spirit God? Is the Spirit the Father or another distinct being?
I guess I don't work well on trying to define spiritual things. I take what the scripture defines: one God, the Father. Stick with that definition, an you will find yourself putting LSM in the recycle bin.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:30 AM   #597
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The question on this thread is about a thing called trinity- a conglomerate god, and if this god is consistent with the Bible. The real point of contention is the Jesus is God controversy. I point out that Jesus and Paul clearly say that the one, unique, true God is the Father. Jesus is not preached as being God. The setup is that God had a plan, and that that plan was to head up all creation in Christ. Christ being the promised one that would redeem and lead all back to God. That plan included the blood sacrifice of the Christ for redemption. That Christ is Jesus. Jesus was raised from the dead, ascended to heaven and was given as a reward for his redemptive work the preeminent position over all created things. There is now the old creation and the new creation the church. I think, generally, that the old creation is not subjects of Christ's Lordship, and that is what is being worked out today- Sit on my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. Jesus talked a lot about the appearance of the kingdom of heaven during this age, an how it was a messy thing. There is indeed a lot of gods running around causing a lot of havoc, there are a lot of lords ruling the realm of man, there are a lot of spirits squawking all over the place, and there is a lot of confusion in the realm of the church, which is still in the middle of the old creation. Paul, in Ephesians, is laboring for us to get the big picture, and lay hold of what God did and is doing to head up all things in Christ. In that treatise Paul points out one God, the Father, one Lord, Jesus, one faith, one Spirit, one body, one baptism. In that treatise his petitions are to the God of Jesus, the Father, that God's people in Ephesus would see and participate in this which God has brought about.

It seems so odd that we Christians dismiss this in favor of a different definition of God. If trinitarianism had not been declared the Christian dogma, and forced upon the church for so many generations, there would be an entirely different expression today. Can you imagine if the church would have picked up Paul's treatise in Ephesians as our dogma? In that there is the clear teaching of acknowledging one God, the Father. Trinitarianism is an aberration which has plagued the church. It set Jesus up as God himself, and the real revelation presented in Ephesians is gone.

The Spirit is a side issue in this discussion, as it was in the Nicene creed. A discussion of the Spirit would only sidetrack. The real issue is the setting of Jesus as God. Spirit and breath are the same word, are they not?
It was a yes or no question. And of course the third person of the trinity is on topic. Just say you don't know ... if that is the case.
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Old 03-23-2018, 11:43 AM   #598
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I think "Biblical Unitarian" is an apt name for your position.



Sounds like a different person than God the father. So if the Spirit isn't God, you've got another supernatural being. Your heaven is full of them.






It could tell you that the authors of Luke/Acts and John had different opinions about Jesus. That's a simple explanation. Got a better one?



Pesky for you, cuz your theology can't seem to account for him.
Would you like to define the person- or persons of the 4 living creatures John presents. Who or what are they. How do they get to be before the throne like the 7 spirits?

And the 24 elders are on thrones- what are they ruling over, who are they? Are they 9 to 5 workers, are they created, or age abiding beings? Are they human, are they made in the image of God?

What about Satan and his angels, what gives them power, what sustains them. How do they influence people on earth? Does Satan live in all men, various men, on men?

Awareness may say I'm deflecting, but I think you can see, some things are not so well defined in the scripture. The Spirit, the Holy Breath, is also not defined in scripture. God is defined One God the Father, the only true God. Jesus and Paul gave us this. Spirit defined? sorry, not there. If you want to start splitting, and cutting and taping parts of verses and then make a decree and say this is your God, count me out.
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Old 03-23-2018, 12:49 PM   #599
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Would you like to define the person- or persons of the 4 living creatures John presents. Who or what are they. How do they get to be before the throne like the 7 spirits?

And the 24 elders are on thrones- what are they ruling over, who are they? Are they 9 to 5 workers, are they created, or age abiding beings? Are they human, are they made in the image of God?

What about Satan and his angels, what gives them power, what sustains them. How do they influence people on earth? Does Satan live in all men, various men, on men?

Awareness may say I'm deflecting, but I think you can see, some things are not so well defined in the scripture. The Spirit, the Holy Breath, is also not defined in scripture. God is defined One God the Father, the only true God. Jesus and Paul gave us this. Spirit defined? sorry, not there. If you want to start splitting, and cutting and taping parts of verses and then make a decree and say this is your God, count me out.
Hell is full of trinitarians.
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Old 03-23-2018, 05:22 PM   #600
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Awareness may say I'm deflecting, but I think you can see, some things are not so well defined in the scripture. The Spirit, the Holy Breath, is also not defined in scripture. God is defined One God the Father, the only true God. Jesus and Paul gave us this. Spirit defined? sorry, not there. If you want to start splitting, and cutting and taping parts of verses and then make a decree and say this is your God, count me out.

The Spirit is defined here as the Spirit of the Father..
Matt 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


How could you miss this?

If the Father is the only true God then the Spirit is the Spirit of the only true God. Therefore the Spirit is clearly God.

This should also already be self evident in the verse which says "God is Spirit".

A good way to expose heretics is to see what they believe about the Spirit. Because anyone can talk about God this and God that. We cannot know the one true God in reality if we don't know the Spirit.

People who dont know God fall into two main beliefs regarding the Spirit. One is that the Spirit is poorly defined or inexplainable and even neglected from their theology. The other is that the Spirit is a mere force or power. Both of these beliefs are denial of a personal Spirit and therefore denial of a personal God with whom we can relate.
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Old 03-24-2018, 04:23 AM   #601
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I didn't say God gave up His Lordship. It is more about the realm of power and the realm of position I would say. Paul tells the Corinthians emphatically that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.
No, the Bible says over and over that God is the Lord and there's only one Lord.
Quote:
Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!


Quote:
The trinitarian Jesus is God thing has people praying to Jesus for wealth, healing, blessing, needs etc. Matthew has 3 chapters of Jesus emphasizing the petitioning of God. And teaches the prayer Our Father. Jesus' whole life was one of praying to God, and looking up to heaven.
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." Where's the problem? Does the Bible teach not to pray to Jesus? Or, is that an extra-Biblical doctrine? Or maybe a personal preference?


Quote:
Correct, there are two focal points in what the NT presents for the believer. Paul's epistles work on this understanding, as does 1 John. The problem is veering off from this and creating another religion.
No, the Bible, including Ephesians 4:5 that you like to quote, often teaches the principle of oneness. So, no offense intended, but you're preaching twoness.

Speaking of I John what do you do with 1 John 5:7?

Quote:
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
That's trinitarian. No?

Quote:
I have to say, I don't understand your beliefs- perhaps it would be good to share your view of the cosmos in a brief statement. I know I have, and then it's there for everyone to hack up, question, condemn, and discuss. Give us your present state of beliefs.
I think ultimate reality exceeds human understanding. It certainly exceeds mine. So, I can read the Bible and more or less understand what the writers were saying. But, how and to what degree it reflects the way things really are, I don't know. I have opinions like everyone else. I can speak about its teachings with greater or lesser certainty depending on the proposition. There are many historical unknowns. The more I dig into the Bible, the more mysterious it becomes. In that way, it's like reality.
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Old 03-24-2018, 05:57 AM   #602
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Would you like to define the person- or persons of the 4 living creatures John presents. Who or what are they. How do they get to be before the throne like the 7 spirits?

And the 24 elders are on thrones- what are they ruling over, who are they? Are they 9 to 5 workers, are they created, or age abiding beings? Are they human, are they made in the image of God?

What about Satan and his angels, what gives them power, what sustains them. How do they influence people on earth? Does Satan live in all men, various men, on men?

Awareness may say I'm deflecting, but I think you can see, some things are not so well defined in the scripture. The Spirit, the Holy Breath, is also not defined in scripture. God is defined One God the Father, the only true God. Jesus and Paul gave us this. Spirit defined? sorry, not there. If you want to start splitting, and cutting and taping parts of verses and then make a decree and say this is your God, count me out.
Like Mount Olympus, the Christian heaven is filled with supernatural beings. Not many people take the Greek pantheon literally any more. Maybe it's time to cease interpreting the Book of Revelation literally as well.

The Jesus in Revelation bears little resemblance to the Jesus of the gospels. The Jesus of the Gospel of John is quite different than the Jesus of the synoptic gospels, for that matter.

The New Testament embeds the Jesus of history in Judaic mythology. Hence, we have his pre-existence and identification with the mythic "one like a son of man."

For 20 centuries people in the West have oriented their lives according to this myth. But, this grand narrative has been breaking down for more than two centuries. So, if those supernatural beings sound ludicrous to you , I understand.
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Old 03-24-2018, 08:09 AM   #603
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The Spirit is defined here as the Spirit of the Father..
Matt 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


How could you miss this?

If the Father is the only true God then the Spirit is the Spirit of the only true God. Therefore the Spirit is clearly God.

This should also already be self evident in the verse which says "God is Spirit".

A good way to expose heretics is to see what they believe about the Spirit. Because anyone can talk about God this and God that. We cannot know the one true God in reality if we don't know the Spirit.

People who dont know God fall into two main beliefs regarding the Spirit. One is that the Spirit is poorly defined or inexplainable and even neglected from their theology. The other is that the Spirit is a mere force or power. Both of these beliefs are denial of a personal Spirit and therefore denial of a personal God with whom we can relate.
Heretics being those who do not accept trinitarianism. Constantine sided with one group, his son sided with the Arians. The trinitarian history is full of twists and turns, intrigue, wars, murders, power grabs, and strict enforcement by torture, death, destroying of writings, exclusive access to scripture lest common unlearned read an interpret.

Evangelical, I love reading your if-then-therefore statements. True spiritual alchemy! How easily you change "of" to "is". So with this sleight of word, Paul's statement of one God the Father is null and void, and replaced with a triune god.
The early creeds started with I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator...
The rest of the creed changed and evolved over time, where the Spirit was put in last until the Spirit became equal part of the trinity and worshipped. The reason for God the Father to be declared such was because God was clearly defined as such. The rest was an evolved, mutated belief system that created a total different religion with a different God.

I seem to recall one of your posts where you said you pray to Jesus because the Father is too mysterious, or something like that. I think you may want to reexamine your if-then-therefore religion. Stick to what Paul said that to us there is one God, the Father.
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Old 03-24-2018, 08:28 AM   #604
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No, the Bible says over and over that God is the Lord and there's only one Lord.





Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." Where's the problem? Does the Bible teach not to pray to Jesus? Or, is that an extra-Biblical doctrine? Or maybe a personal preference?




No, the Bible, including Ephesians 4:5 that you like to quote, often teaches the principle of oneness. So, no offense intended, but you're preaching twoness.

Speaking of I John what do you do with 1 John 5:7?



That's trinitarian. No?



I think ultimate reality exceeds human understanding. It certainly exceeds mine. So, I can read the Bible and more or less understand what the writers were saying. But, how and to what degree it reflects the way things really are, I don't know. I have opinions like everyone else. I can speak about its teachings with greater or lesser certainty depending on the proposition. There are many historical unknowns. The more I dig into the Bible, the more mysterious it becomes. In that way, it's like reality.
The stumbling point seems to be the inability to accept Paul telling the Corinthians that to us there is one God, the Father. There seems to be all kind of delflection from everyone who has been steeped in trinitarianism to just accepting this simple statement. It is so well presented in the background recent converts in a gentile world. It's the old square peg in the round hole dilemma- surely Paul couldn't mean One God, the Father, he had to mean the triune God! From my rovings through Christianity, I see this clear statement of Paul deflected, ignored, or buried. I don't recall ever hearing a Christian message concerning the God of Jesus. Just doesn't happen.
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Old 03-24-2018, 08:33 AM   #605
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Hell is full of trinitarians.
Oh, no, the decree is that the heretics be damned. In fact, the trinitarians aren't against starting the process pre-hell, with the naughty one tied to the stake and the faggots burning his mortal body.
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Old 03-24-2018, 10:24 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
The stumbling point seems to be the inability to accept Paul telling the Corinthians that to us there is one God, the Father. There seems to be all kind of delflection from everyone who has been steeped in trinitarianism to just accepting this simple statement. It is so well presented in the background recent converts in a gentile world. It's the old square peg in the round hole dilemma- surely Paul couldn't mean One God, the Father, he had to mean the triune God! From my rovings through Christianity, I see this clear statement of Paul deflected, ignored, or buried. I don't recall ever hearing a Christian message concerning the God of Jesus. Just doesn't happen.
Trinitarianism has way too much mass and momentum to do anything but nip at its heels. It's to big to fail.
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Old 03-24-2018, 11:35 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Heretics being those who do not accept trinitarianism. Constantine sided with one group, his son sided with the Arians. The trinitarian history is full of twists and turns, intrigue, wars, murders, power grabs, and strict enforcement by torture, death, destroying of writings, exclusive access to scripture lest common unlearned read an interpret.

Evangelical, I love reading your if-then-therefore statements. True spiritual alchemy! How easily you change "of" to "is". So with this sleight of word, Paul's statement of one God the Father is null and void, and replaced with a triune god.
The early creeds started with I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator...
The rest of the creed changed and evolved over time, where the Spirit was put in last until the Spirit became equal part of the trinity and worshipped. The reason for God the Father to be declared such was because God was clearly defined as such. The rest was an evolved, mutated belief system that created a total different religion with a different God.

I seem to recall one of your posts where you said you pray to Jesus because the Father is too mysterious, or something like that. I think you may want to reexamine your if-then-therefore religion. Stick to what Paul said that to us there is one God, the Father.


The Father is Spirit (John 4:24).

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.

Because of John 4:24 we can know that the Spirit is the Father.

The Spirit is also Jesus's Father because Jesus is the product of Mary (mother) and the Spirit (father).

To draw a distinction between the Father who is Spirit and the Holy Spirit who is from and of the Father is complicating the matter. Then heaven is filled with two Spirits - a Father Spirit and a Holy Spirit.

Acts 5 is also strong proof that the Spirit is God:

Acts 5

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

So the bible reveals at least:
the Father is God
the Spirit is God

Right there we have two persons at least who are God, and your doctrine falls flat.
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Old 03-25-2018, 09:00 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The Father is Spirit (John 4:24).

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.

Because of John 4:24 we can know that the Spirit is the Father.

The Spirit is also Jesus's Father because Jesus is the product of Mary (mother) and the Spirit (father).

To draw a distinction between the Father who is Spirit and the Holy Spirit who is from and of the Father is complicating the matter. Then heaven is filled with two Spirits - a Father Spirit and a Holy Spirit.

Acts 5 is also strong proof that the Spirit is God:

Acts 5

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

So the bible reveals at least:
the Father is God
the Spirit is God

Right there we have two persons at least who are God, and your doctrine falls flat.
Your premises seem sound. So given the above, we're clear about God the Father, and God the Spirit. That's good, to me, cuz that means that not only is Spirit my path to the Father, but is The Father coming to me.

That seems enough to me.

But it wasn't enough for the early proto-orthodoxy, and the later orthodoxy.

We're 600 posts deep into this matter. And it's clear just here that the Bible doesn't have indisputable clarity that the 3 major actors are all three God.

Even in John, that says outright that God became flesh, has Jesus saying, the Father is greater than I.

This matter was so confusing, in fact, that it was heavily, and harshly I might add, debated for hundreds of years, and has never been settled, even up to today.

I don't know if 99% of trinitarians give the rest of them a bad name, but, there's no history, that I know of, of non-trinitarians burning trinitarians at the stake. So trinitarian extremists have given trinitarianism a bad name.

Earlier on this thread, I shot out, "Hell is full of trinitarians." Of course it was sarcasm. I hardly think that believing in the trinity will result in going to hell, and neither will not believing in the trinity.

This is not a salvation issue. This has always been about Biblical technicalities. If I understand it correctly, God looks on the heart. The disciples are silent now (Luke 19:40) so the stones are crying out. This means, if in your heart you are praying to, or worshiping, God, it doesn't matter if you pray to, or worship, even the crying-out-stones. What matters is, what's in your heart.

God doesn't expect us to understand all of this anyway. If He did it would all be spelled out in scripture so that there would never ever need to be any creeds whatsoever.

In the end it's all about faith. In the scriptures Abraham is the father of faith. And he had no scripture at all. So we can throw all of this out, even the Bible (and the trinity), and faith will still save us. And I do believe that means faith in God, like Abraham.
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Old 03-25-2018, 12:07 PM   #609
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Default Re: The Trinity: Consistent with the Bible?

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
The Father is Spirit (John 4:24).

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.

Because of John 4:24 we can know that the Spirit is the Father.

The Spirit is also Jesus's Father because Jesus is the product of Mary (mother) and the Spirit (father).

To draw a distinction between the Father who is Spirit and the Holy Spirit who is from and of the Father is complicating the matter. Then heaven is filled with two Spirits - a Father Spirit and a Holy Spirit.

Acts 5 is also strong proof that the Spirit is God:

Acts 5

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

So the bible reveals at least:
the Father is God
the Spirit is God

Right there we have two persons at least who are God, and your doctrine falls flat.
Jesus said to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and sadducees. He ridiculed them for taking small parts of scripture and developing a religion over their compilations. They discounted the scripture for their own narrative, and taught men to follow their narrative. This is what trinitarianism has done and what you are doing here. You now create a theology where Paul telling the Corinthians that there is one God the Father, and Jesus telling the apostles that there is only one true God, the Father, is nullified, and you replace scripture with a triune god.
The heavens are filled with spirits apparently: angels are spirits, demons are spirits, seraphim? cherubim? 24 elders? 7 spirits before the throne of God, Jesus became a life giving spirit, and God is spirit. The Holy Spirit is not talked about as being the "Father" of Jesus. You keep making up these if-then-therefore statements and present your results as truth, but it is not what is plainly declared by Jesus and Paul that there is one unique true God, whom we are privileged to call Father. All of Paul's epistles start by recognizing God the Father. It is not a small matter in understanding the truth, Jesus, salvation, etc., to recognize and declair and teach and honor the one True God, the Father. God is the God and Father of Jesus, and our God and Father. The function of the unique Holy Spirit is to convey truth to us. In essence, by your leavening of the truth, you slight the work of the very Spirit you are trying to mould into God.

So here we differ on Jesus, the Spirit, and God. What shall we do? What about taking Paul's admonition in Eph. 4? We acknowledge the Spirit, we acknowledge Jesus as Lord, and we acknowledge One God, the Father. Rather than if-then statements, why not accept the word of the apostle for keeping the oneness? Do this, and you can toss out all your Lord Lee/ LSM literature and get back to the truth so the body of Christ can be built. Your teaching is against the gospel and against the teaching of Jesus and the apostle.

Evangelical, what will it be? Your derivative theology of the clear word of Jesus and Paul: one God the Father
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Old 03-25-2018, 12:12 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Your premises seem sound. So given the above, we're clear about God the Father, and God the Spirit. That's good, to me, cuz that means that not only is Spirit my path to the Father, but is The Father coming to me.

That seems enough to me.

But it wasn't enough for the early proto-orthodoxy, and the later orthodoxy.

We're 600 posts deep into this matter. And it's clear just here that the Bible doesn't have indisputable clarity that the 3 major actors are all three God.

Even in John, that says outright that God became flesh, has Jesus saying, the Father is greater than I.

This matter was so confusing, in fact, that it was heavily, and harshly I might add, debated for hundreds of years, and has never been settled, even up to today.

I don't know if 99% of trinitarians give the rest of them a bad name, but, there's no history, that I know of, of non-trinitarians burning trinitarians at the stake. So trinitarian extremists have given trinitarianism a bad name.

Earlier on this thread, I shot out, "Hell is full of trinitarians." Of course it was sarcasm. I hardly think that believing in the trinity will result in going to hell, and neither will not believing in the trinity.

This is not a salvation issue. This has always been about Biblical technicalities. If I understand it correctly, God looks on the heart. The disciples are silent now (Luke 19:40) so the stones are crying out. This means, if in your heart you are praying to, or worshiping, God, it doesn't matter if you pray to, or worship, even the crying-out-stones. What matters is, what's in your heart.

God doesn't expect us to understand all of this anyway. If He did it would all be spelled out in scripture so that there would never ever need to be any creeds whatsoever.

In the end it's all about faith. In the scriptures Abraham is the father of faith. And he had no scripture at all. So we can throw all of this out, even the Bible (and the trinity), and faith will still save us. And I do believe that means faith in God, like Abraham.
Oh, oh, I hear another song in my head

When I die and they lay me to rest
Gonna go to the place that's the best
When I lay me down to die
Goin' up to the spirit in the sky
Goin' up to the spirit in the sky
That's where I'm gonna go when I die
When I die and they lay me to rest
Gonna go to the place that's the best
Prepare yourself you know it's a must
Gotta have a friend in Jesus
So you know that when you die
He's gonna recommend you
To the spirit in the sky
Gonna recommend you
To the spirit in the sky
That's where you're gonna go when you die
When you die and they lay you to rest
You're gonna go to the place that's the best
Never been a sinner I never sinned
I got…
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Old 03-25-2018, 12:38 PM   #611
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Default Re: The Trinity: Consistent with the Bible?

To consider God, spirit, spirits, the Holy Spirit, how the whole spirit thing operates and the Holy Spirit's operation, might be good to consider Stephen's account in Acts. One may think God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, but Stephen says it was the angel of the Lord, who spoke to Moses. Hebrews also talks about the law being given by the hand of angels.

How God operates, conveys things is not that simple, angels represent God, Jesus represents God, men represent God, the Holy Spirit ( there might be a good reason the term "Holy" is used.), but over all is the Almighty God, the great Creator, whom we are privileged to know, and honor, and call on, and come to- Our Father God.

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him, ” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." **I Corinthians‬ *15:22-28‬ *NKJV‬‬
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Old 03-25-2018, 12:51 PM   #612
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My Sunday meeting with the trinitarians:

So this being Palm Sunday, the pastor goes over Mark 11. The Jesus riding on the foal of the donkey turns out was the creator himself. The people shouting Hosannah, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord were actually worshipping Jesus as God.

Ending prayer by one of the pastors "thank you Father, for what we see here...you suffered and died the worst suffering for us on the cross...and we pray in your name, Jesus.

Why does a pastor feel the need to transform Mark 11 into something entirely different? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees.!
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Old 03-25-2018, 02:05 PM   #613
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Default Re: The Trinity: Consistent with the Bible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Oh, oh, I hear another song in my head

When I die and they lay me to rest
Gonna go to the place that's the best
When I lay me down to die
Goin' up to the spirit in the sky
Goin' up to the spirit in the sky
That's where I'm gonna go when I die
When I die and they lay me to rest
Gonna go to the place that's the best
Prepare yourself you know it's a must
Gotta have a friend in Jesus
So you know that when you die
He's gonna recommend you
To the spirit in the sky
Gonna recommend you
To the spirit in the sky
That's where you're gonna go when you die
When you die and they lay you to rest
You're gonna go to the place that's the best
Never been a sinner I never sinned
I got…
Who's your sky daddy?
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Old 03-25-2018, 02:21 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Jesus said to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and sadducees. He ridiculed them for taking small parts of scripture and developing a religion over their compilations. They discounted the scripture for their own narrative, and taught men to follow their narrative. This is what trinitarianism has done and what you are doing here. You now create a theology where Paul telling the Corinthians that there is one God the Father, and Jesus telling the apostles that there is only one true God, the Father, is nullified, and you replace scripture with a triune god.
The heavens are filled with spirits apparently: angels are spirits, demons are spirits, seraphim? cherubim? 24 elders? 7 spirits before the throne of God, Jesus became a life giving spirit, and God is spirit. The Holy Spirit is not talked about as being the "Father" of Jesus. You keep making up these if-then-therefore statements and present your results as truth, but it is not what is plainly declared by Jesus and Paul that there is one unique true God, whom we are privileged to call Father. All of Paul's epistles start by recognizing God the Father. It is not a small matter in understanding the truth, Jesus, salvation, etc., to recognize and declair and teach and honor the one True God, the Father. God is the God and Father of Jesus, and our God and Father. The function of the unique Holy Spirit is to convey truth to us. In essence, by your leavening of the truth, you slight the work of the very Spirit you are trying to mould into God.

So here we differ on Jesus, the Spirit, and God. What shall we do? What about taking Paul's admonition in Eph. 4? We acknowledge the Spirit, we acknowledge Jesus as Lord, and we acknowledge One God, the Father. Rather than if-then statements, why not accept the word of the apostle for keeping the oneness? Do this, and you can toss out all your Lord Lee/ LSM literature and get back to the truth so the body of Christ can be built. Your teaching is against the gospel and against the teaching of Jesus and the apostle.

Evangelical, what will it be? Your derivative theology of the clear word of Jesus and Paul: one God the Father
Its very easy to show that the Spirit is the Father..
Who conceived Jesus? The Father or the Spirit?

Matt 1.18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.


If the Spirit is not the Father then Jesus had two fathers!
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Old 03-25-2018, 04:54 PM   #615
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Its very easy to show that the Spirit is the Father.. Who conceived Jesus? The Father or the Spirit?

Matt 1.18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.


If the Spirit is not the Father then Jesus had two fathers!
What happened to Joseph?
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Old 03-25-2018, 05:08 PM   #616
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What happened to Joseph?
Not his real father biologically.
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Old 03-25-2018, 05:24 PM   #617
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Not his real father biologically.
So you discount the genealogies in Matthew & Luke? Just askin'.
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Old 03-25-2018, 05:41 PM   #618
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So you discount the genealogies in Matthew & Luke? Just askin'.
They follow patrilineal descent, not biological. On this topic, I wish to uncover who Jesus's "real" Father was.
Boxjobox seems to believe that Jesus's Father is God the Father yet doe snot believe that the Spirit is Jesus's Father or that the Spirit is the Father.
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Old 03-25-2018, 09:36 PM   #619
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They follow patrilineal descent, not biological. On this topic, I wish to uncover who Jesus's "real" Father was.
Boxjobox seems to believe that Jesus's Father is God the Father yet doe snot believe that the Spirit is Jesus's Father or that the Spirit is the Father.
Father of, father of, father of, etc, etc (Matthew), and son of, son of, son of etc, etc, (Luke) sure sound biological to me. Neither say this is a patrilineal genealogy, tho they are descent through the male line, if that's what you mean.
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Old 03-26-2018, 08:06 AM   #620
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Its very easy to show that the Spirit is the Father..
Who conceived Jesus? The Father or the Spirit?

Matt 1.18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.


If the Spirit is not the Father then Jesus had two fathers!
“Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me— To do Your will, O God.’ ””
**Hebrews‬ *10:5-7‬ *NKJV‬‬

I would say you are taking something that is not explained, i.e. a baby in the womb of Mary- apart from the normal human method, and trying to derive a construct of God. I would not be surprised to find out in the end that Jesus was actually derived from David in some supernatural method. I mean if we are going off the deep end here, let's explore all the possibilities! I mean God did promise David his seed would reign. Point being, not enough information to form a heavy duty theology.

Paul, in Eph 4, talks about The Spirit, Jesus, and one God and Father. To keep the oneness, have to recognize all three. Evangelical, you're deflecting from the oneness.
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:00 AM   #621
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I mean if we are going off the deep end here, let's explore all the possibilities! I mean God did promise David his seed would reign. Point being, not enough information to form a heavy duty theology.
God promised it, Jesus fulfilled it, and all Israel and the church believes this.

But for you, it's "going off the deep end," and "not enough information to form a heavy duty theology."
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:31 AM   #622
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God promised it, Jesus fulfilled it, and all Israel and the church believes this.

But for you, it's "going off the deep end," and "not enough information to form a heavy duty theology."
Paul believed it when he wrote Romans 1:3 "concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh"? The authors of Matthew and Luke supported it when they provided the supposed genealogies of Jesus.

But, they contradicted it when they included stories alleging that Jesus was fathered by the Holy Spirit. These stories have become an embarrassment to professing Christianity.

You guys trip over yourselves trying to explain and justify the stories. The authors of the Gospels of Mark and John apparently didn't believe the "virgin birth" accounts either. Or, at least they didn't think miraculous birth stories were necessary for understanding Jesus and his mission.

That said, since the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus according to the stories, Boxjobox has presented no good argument against Evangelical's argument that the Holy Spirit is God the Father. According to the stories the Holy Spirit is literally Jesus' father!
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Old 03-26-2018, 09:44 AM   #623
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I mean if we are going off the deep end here, let's explore all the possibilities! I mean God did promise David his seed would reign. Point being, not enough information to form a heavy duty theology.
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God promised it, Jesus fulfilled it, and all Israel and the church believes this.
Then Jesus is not the seed of David. Cuz he's the seed of God the Spirit.
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:03 AM   #624
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Then Jesus is not the seed of David. Cuz he's the seed of God the Spirit.
Actually both ...

Rom 1.3, "Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh."

Luke 1.31-32, "Jesus will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of David His father."

Luke 1.34-35, "But Mary said to the angel, How can this be since I have never known a man? And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God."
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Old 03-26-2018, 10:10 AM   #625
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God promised it, Jesus fulfilled it, and all Israel and the church believes this.
ALL Israel? ALL the church?
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:12 AM   #626
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Actually both ...

Rom 1.3, "Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh."

Luke 1.31-32, "Jesus will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of David His father."

Luke 1.34-35, "But Mary said to the angel, How can this be since I have never known a man? And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God."
Now we need DNA tests. We need to swab Jesus, Joseph, God, and the Holy Spirit. Then, and only then, can we be certain.
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:25 AM   #627
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Now we need DNA tests. We need to swab Jesus, Joseph, God, and the Holy Spirit. Then, and only then, can we be certain.
If you refuse to believe after reading the scriptures' eye witness accounts, hearing the testimonies from hundreds of Christians you know personally, including your own parents, and your own salvation experience of the Lord, then I doubt if DNA paternity tests would do you any good.
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:25 AM   #628
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Now we need DNA tests. We need to swab Jesus, Joseph, God, and the Holy Spirit. Then, and only then, can we be certain.
Yeah and check all the samples against the DNA on the Shroud of Turin. Right, ZNP?
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Old 03-26-2018, 06:27 PM   #629
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If you refuse to believe after reading the scriptures' eye witness accounts,
Where do you find eyewitness accounts?
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:26 AM   #630
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My Sunday meeting with the trinitarians:

So this being Palm Sunday, the pastor goes over Mark 11. The Jesus riding on the foal of the donkey turns out was the creator himself. The people shouting Hosannah, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord were actually worshipping Jesus as God.

Ending prayer by one of the pastors "thank you Father, for what we see here...you suffered and died the worst suffering for us on the cross...and we pray in your name, Jesus.

Why does a pastor feel the need to transform Mark 11 into something entirely different? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Saducees.!
The pastor was apparently reading the Gospel of Mark through the lens of a literal interpretation of the Gospel of John. John 14:9 says Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

Although in the context of John, Jesus explicates how it is that he represents and does not supersede or subordinate God the Father, that nuance is often lost by Trinitarians. The pastor also seems to presume that Mark shares John's christology. There is ample evidence that it doesn't.
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:10 AM   #631
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God promised it, Jesus fulfilled it, and all Israel and the church believes this.

But for you, it's "going off the deep end," and "not enough information to form a heavy duty theology."
The paradox here is Jesus is to be the seed of David. If Jesus is not the seed of David, then where is the fulfillment of the promise? If it's just in appearance that Jesus is the son of Joseph... the son of David, because Mary was betrothed to Joseph, this seems to lack fulfillment as well. If you are saying the Holy Spirit, whom I would say is the messenger of God, is the father of Jesus, then in Evangelical's if-then logic, the Holy Spirit is actually David!

Deep end- not enough information!

In all this nut and shell game being played about the Spirit being God, everyone seems to want to walk away from the direct speaking of Paul and Jesus that there is one true God, the Father. Rather than do the trinitarian dance, what is keeping you from believing this? Other than your trinitarianism overruling the explicit scripture. This is the leaven of the trinitarians.
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:19 AM   #632
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The pastor was apparently reading the Gospel of Mark through the lens of a literal interpretation of the Gospel of John. John 14:9 says Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

Although in the context of John, Jesus explicates how it is that he represents and does not supersede or subordinate God the Father, that nuance is often lost by Trinitarians. The pastor also seems to presume that Mark shares John's christology. There is ample evidence that it doesn't.
So if the pastor goes in front of the congregation, on the lighted stage, with the laity in the dimly light auditorium, and talks about this man Jesus coming in the name of Yahweh, and the people honoring Jesus as the son of David the King, the promised one, and shows how God was with Jesus, how would that look in an indoctrinated trinitarian world?
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:20 AM   #633
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The paradox here is Jesus is to be the seed of David. If Jesus is not the seed of David, then where is the fulfillment of the promise? If it's just in appearance that Jesus is the son of Joseph... the son of David, because Mary was betrothed to Joseph, this seems to lack fulfillment as well. If you are saying the Holy Spirit, whom I would say is the messenger of God, is the father of Jesus, then in Evangelical's if-then logic, the Holy Spirit is actually David!

Deep end- not enough information!

In all this nut and shell game being played about the Spirit being God, everyone seems to want to walk away from the direct speaking of Paul and Jesus that there is one true God, the Father. Rather than do the trinitarian dance, what is keeping you from believing this? Other than your trinitarianism overruling the explicit scripture. This is the leaven of the trinitarians.
So God the Father sent a messenger to father his son? Maybe Jesus should have been called the "Son of Messenger" not the "Son of God" according to your thinking. "For God so loved the world that he gave the messenger's only begotten son."
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:26 AM   #634
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Actually both ...

Rom 1.3, "Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh."

Luke 1.31-32, "Jesus will be great, and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of David His father."

Luke 1.34-35, "But Mary said to the angel, How can this be since I have never known a man? And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, therefore also the holy-begotten thing shall be called Son of God."
Ohio, you missed a few pertinent quotes there in Romans
“and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,”
**Romans‬ *1:4, 7-9‬ *NKJV‬‬

Good old Paul- he knew who God is, and prayed to him, and he knew who the Son of God is and preached such.

Of course, this wouldn't interest anybody outside my small circle of friends.
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:36 AM   #635
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So God the Father sent a messenger to father his son? Maybe Jesus should have been called the "Son of Messenger" not the "Son of God" according to your thinking. "For God so loved the world that he gave the messenger's only begotten son."
Oh, I keep forgetting Mary is the mother of God....Have you ever noticed, when God makes a move He sends his Holy Spirit? Jesus and Paul talk about the Spirit, yet clearly state one true God, the Father. Are you really implying- how should I put this, a spirit/flesh intercourse?

This is what I mean- making a whole theology on something that we are not given enough information. Drawing if-then- therefore beliefs that the scripture does not speak of, but it does speak of one God the Father, but seems this is not palatable, so in comes the leaven!
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:52 AM   #636
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Oh, I keep forgetting Mary is the mother of God....Have you ever noticed, when God makes a move He sends his Holy Spirit? Jesus and Paul talk about the Spirit, yet clearly state one true God, the Father. Are you really implying- how should I put this, a spirit/flesh intercourse?
The mother of god comment is a red herring. Neither Matthew or Luke assert that. We're talking about what the texts say, remember? If God sent a messenger to father Jesus, why do the authors claim he was the son of God? Did he become the Son of God upon resurrecting? What then do you make of the birth stories? Why did they bother to include those in the first place? The birth narratives of Matthew and Luke irreconcilably contradict each other. Miraculous birth stories were common in those days. Augustus Caesar had a miraculous birth too and was venerated as a son of god throughout the empire. Matthew and Luke could have just been following the common practice of divinizing the birth of a hero, king or emperor in legend.

Quote:
This is what I mean- making a whole theology on something that we are not given enough information. Drawing if-then- therefore beliefs that the scripture does not speak of, but it does speak of one God the Father, but seems this is not palatable, so in comes the leaven!
You could easily take your argument a step further and conclude that we don't have enough information about any of it. What's the basis for the proposition that God literally made Jesus Lord of everything in the universe? The questionable adaptation of OT verses to the death and resurrection narrative of Jesus? Do you realize how extraordinary that claim is? Where's the extraordinary evidence that supports it? Like you said, "we are not given enough information".
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:31 PM   #637
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I went to lunch with my sister and a group of retired teachers. I sat next to a couple of devoted Roman Catholics.

So I turned to John and told him I've been debating the trinity. I told him the word trinity is not in the Bible anywhere. His wife spoke up and said, not in your Bible. I asked, what Bible do you read, and she said, the Catholic Bible. I dropped it.

Basically, the Church proclaims it, and they believe it without question. The leaven wins.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:37 PM   #638
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Oh, I keep forgetting Mary is the mother of God....Have you ever noticed, when God makes a move He sends his Holy Spirit? Jesus and Paul talk about the Spirit, yet clearly state one true God, the Father. Are you really implying- how should I put this, a spirit/flesh intercourse?

This is what I mean- making a whole theology on something that we are not given enough information. Drawing if-then- therefore beliefs that the scripture does not speak of, but it does speak of one God the Father, but seems this is not palatable, so in comes the leaven!
So there is God who is Spirit and there is the Holy Spirit. You believe then in two Holy Spirits.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:58 AM   #639
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So there is God who is Spirit and there is the Holy Spirit. You believe then in two Holy Spirits.
I'd love to see jobox's answer to this. That the Holy Spirit is God is a big problem to trinity deniers. Cuz then you have two actors of the trinity that are undeniably God.

Of course if you can disprove that Jesus is God then the trinity falls apart.

But then again, who knows? There could be many Holy Spirit's ... and they all could be God. For all we know Satan could be God.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:34 AM   #640
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I'd love to see jobox's answer to this. That the Holy Spirit is God is a big problem to trinity deniers. Cuz then you have two actors of the trinity that are undeniably God.

Of course if you can disprove that Jesus is God then the trinity falls apart.

But then again, who knows? There could be many Holy Spirit's ... and they all could be God. For all we know Satan could be God.
What's wrong with two Spirits?

Once you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, you will die in your sins. (John 8.24)

We already got seven Spirits in Revelation.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:56 AM   #641
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What's wrong with two Spirits?

Once you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, you will die in your sins. (John 8.24)

We already got seven Spirits in Revelation.
I know. I was thinking of the seven Spirits when I said that. But you can't stop at John 8:24, you must continue to v. 26:

Joh 8:26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him."
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:47 AM   #642
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So there is God who is Spirit and there is the Holy Spirit. You believe then in two Holy Spirits.
Poor, poor if- then statements, which produce strange results and a strange belief statement. It's easy to see how some cling to Lord Lees's teachings.

God's composit is spirit, angels' composit is spirit, Holy Spirit's composit is spirit, Satan's composit is spirit, demon's composit is spirit, there may be more than this that I am not aware of whose composit is spirit.

I am human, Trump is human, I am not president. Do you kind of get the picture?

Paul and Jesus both declared one, true God, the Father. Just accept their definition, an then read your NT and see that it is written with this definition.
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:51 AM   #643
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I went to lunch with my sister and a group of retired teachers. I sat next to a couple of devoted Roman Catholics.

So I turned to John and told him I've been debating the trinity. I told him the word trinity is not in the Bible anywhere. His wife spoke up and said, not in your Bible. I asked, what Bible do you read, and she said, the Catholic Bible. I dropped it.

Basically, the Church proclaims it, and they believe it without question. The leaven wins.
That's because Jesus is God, and Mary is the mother of God, and you don't want to dis Mary, the queen of heaven, or your rosary will not work.
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:56 AM   #644
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The mother of god comment is a red herring. Neither Matthew or Luke assert that. We're talking about what the texts say, remember? If God sent a messenger to father Jesus, why do the authors claim he was the son of God? Did he become the Son of God upon resurrecting? What then do you make of the birth stories? Why did they bother to include those in the first place? The birth narratives of Matthew and Luke irreconcilably contradict each other. Miraculous birth stories were common in those days. Augustus Caesar had a miraculous birth too and was venerated as a son of god throughout the empire. Matthew and Luke could have just been following the common practice of divinizing the birth of a hero, king or emperor in legend.



You could easily take your argument a step further and conclude that we don't have enough information about any of it. What's the basis for the proposition that God literally made Jesus Lord of everything in the universe? The questionable adaptation of OT verses to the death and resurrection narrative of Jesus? Do you realize how extraordinary that claim is? Where's the extraordinary evidence that supports it? Like you said, "we are not given enough information".
Paul speaking to the Athenians:

“for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.””
**Acts‬ *17:23-24, 26, 28-29, 31‬ *NKJV‬‬
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:03 AM   #645
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What's wrong with two Spirits?

Once you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, you will die in your sins. (John 8.24)

We already got seven Spirits in Revelation.
I would reall hate to think that the thousands who believed the low gospel (wasn't that Lord Lee's terminology?) preached throughout the book of Acts, all died in their sins because they never heard of the deity of Christ!

Ohio- read all of John 8 and you should be able to see that Jesus was referring to himself as the sent one, the Christ. Remember, this is the same Jesus who said only true God, the Father..
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:22 PM   #646
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Paul speaking to the Athenians:

“for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.””
**Acts‬ *17:23-24, 26, 28-29, 31‬ *NKJV‬‬
The Lord spoke to Moses:

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14 Then the Lord spoke to Moses in the Wilderness of Sinai, saying: 15 “Number the children of Levi by their fathers’ houses, by their families; you shall number every male from a month old and above.”

16 So Moses numbered them according to the word of the Lord, as he was commanded. 17 These were the sons of Levi by their names: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. 18 And these are the names of the sons of Gershon by their families: Libni and Shimei. 19 And the sons of Kohath by their families: Amram, Izehar, Hebron, and Uzziel. 20 And the sons of Merari by their families: Mahli and Mushi. These are the families of the Levites by their fathers’ houses.

21 From Gershon came the family of the Libnites and the family of the Shimites; these were the families of the Gershonites. 22 Those who were numbered, according to the number of all the males from a month old and above—of those who were numbered there were seven thousand five hundred. 23 The families of the Gershonites were to camp behind the tabernacle westward. 24 And the leader of the father’s house of the Gershonites was Eliasaph the son of Lael. 25 The duties of the children of Gershon in the tabernacle of meeting included the tabernacle, the tent with its covering, the screen for the door of the tabernacle of meeting, 26 the screen for the door of the court, the hangings of the court which are around the tabernacle and the altar, and their cords, according to all the work relating to them.

27 From Kohath came the family of the Amramites, the family of the Izharites, the family of the Hebronites, and the family of the Uzzielites; these were the families of the Kohathites. 28 According to the number of all the males, from a month old and above, there were eight thousand six[b] hundred keeping charge of the sanctuary. 29 The families of the children of Kohath were to camp on the south side of the tabernacle. 30 And the leader of the fathers’ house of the families of the Kohathites was Elizaphan the son of Uzziel. 31 Their duty included the ark, the table, the lampstand, the altars, the utensils of the sanctuary with which they ministered, the screen, and all the work relating to them.

32 And Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest was to be chief over the leaders of the Levites, with oversight of those who kept charge of the sanctuary.

33 From Merari came the family of the Mahlites and the family of the Mu****es; these were the families of Merari. 34 And those who were numbered, according to the number of all the males from a month old and above, were six thousand two hundred. 35 The leader of the fathers’ house of the families of Merari was Zuriel the son of Abihail. These were to camp on the north side of the tabernacle. 36 And the appointed duty of the children of Merari included the boards of the tabernacle, its bars, its pillars, its sockets, its utensils, all the work relating to them, 37 and the pillars of the court all around, with their sockets, their pegs, and their cords.

38 Moreover those who were to camp before the tabernacle on the east, before the tabernacle of meeting, were Moses, Aaron, and his sons, keeping charge of the sanctuary, to meet the needs of the children of Israel; but the outsider who came near was to be put to death. 39 All who were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses and Aaron numbered at the commandment of the Lord, by their families, all the males from a month old and above, were twenty-two thousand. [Numbers 3: 14-39]
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:17 PM   #647
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So you guys are having a verse salad contest?
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Old 03-28-2018, 03:21 PM   #648
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Poor, poor if- then statements, which produce strange results and a strange belief statement. It's easy to see how some cling to Lord Lees's teachings.

God's composit is spirit, angels' composit is spirit, Holy Spirit's composit is spirit, Satan's composit is spirit, demon's composit is spirit, there may be more than this that I am not aware of whose composit is spirit.

I am human, Trump is human, I am not president. Do you kind of get the picture?

Paul and Jesus both declared one, true God, the Father. Just accept their definition, an then read your NT and see that it is written with this definition.
So you do believe that God and the Holy Spirit are separate entities it would seem. This means there is a Spirit God and also a Holy Spirit...so you must believe that the Holy Spirit is not the true God. Denial of the Spirit surely has sealed your eternal fate unless you turn to the Lord Spirit.
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Old 03-28-2018, 04:23 PM   #649
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Ohio- read all of John 8 and you should be able to see that Jesus was referring to himself as the sent one, the Christ. Remember, this is the same Jesus who said only true God, the Father..
I just read John 8 again.

It's impossible but to conclude that Jesus is eternal.

Once again, by equating His own words with the words of God, (8.47,52) Jesus tells us that He is God.
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Old 03-28-2018, 06:08 PM   #650
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Here's a Bible passage for Boxjobox to explain in nontrinitarian terms:



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Hebrews Chapter One
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever
;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
God addresses the "Son" as "God". Not a problem to explain from a Trinitarian point of view. It's obviously God the Father addressing God the Son. Now it's your turn, Boxjobox. Why does God address the Son as God if the Son is not God?
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:30 AM   #651
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So you do believe that God and the Holy Spirit are separate entities it would seem. This means there is a Spirit God and also a Holy Spirit...so you must believe that the Holy Spirit is not the true God. Denial of the Spirit surely has sealed your eternal fate unless you turn to the Lord Spirit.
You can't be certain that you are correctly interpreting and applying the teaching about the "blaspheming of the holy spirit." Intellectual humility would have required that you at least admit that you are merely expressing your opinion. It appears that you're condemning Boxjobox to hell just because he defeated your argument. That strikes me as mean-spirited.

I dispute the contention that salvation depends on any particular intellectual assent to a set of facts. I consider that claim absurd. Salvation, it seems to me depends upon receiving the Spirit not any particular set of facts about the Spirit, upon receiving Jesus not any set of facts about Jesus, upon receiving God the Father not any set of facts about God the Father. In other words, it is a matter of spiritual reality not a matter of mere intellectual assent to a set of creedal propositions. The idea that at the judgment seat Jesus is going to be querying people about what they thought about a set of doctrines is ridiculous and repugnant and itself contrary to the spirit of the gospel as I understand it.
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Old 03-29-2018, 07:11 AM   #652
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I just read John 8 again.

It's impossible but to conclude that Jesus is eternal.

Once again, by equating His own words with the words of God, (8.47,52) Jesus tells us that He is God.
I'm not seeing that in those verses.

Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."


This one says "is of God," not that "I'm God."

Joh 8:52 The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.'


This one doesn't relate at all.

Reread John 8 again ... and make your point again.
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Old 03-29-2018, 07:22 AM   #653
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I'm not seeing that in those verses.

Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."


This one says "is of God," not that "I'm God."

Joh 8:52 The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.'


This one doesn't relate at all.

Reread John 8 again ... and make your point again.
Jesus spoke to the opposing Jews and identified His own words as the words of God.

These Jews got the message, and referred to Jesus own words.
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:34 AM   #654
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Jesus spoke to the opposing Jews and identified His own words as the words of God.

These Jews got the message, and referred to Jesus own words.
When Jesus rose from being dead, and came to the weeping Mary M, he told Mary not cling to him because he had not yet ascended to his Father, of Whom, Jesus told Mary to tell his brethren that he was ascending to his Father and their Father, and his God and their God.

Before Jesus passion, he prayed to God his Father in the presence of his brethren and said eternal life was to know the only true God, his Father and Jesus the one whom the Father sent.

The whole thing about making Jesus God, and making God triune, distorts the truth, presents a false image of God and Christ. You love the words of Jesus up to the point it interferes with triunism, then ignore Jesus' plain speaking. That is not healthy for you or for Christianity because it causes a dogma to replace scripture. I may be wrong, but I doubt up until now, you have ever considered the God of Jesus.
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:54 AM   #655
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Jesus spoke to the opposing Jews and identified His own words as the words of God.

These Jews got the message, and referred to Jesus own words.
I quote your words all the time. Does that make me you?
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Old 03-29-2018, 08:56 AM   #656
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Here's a Bible passage for Boxjobox to explain in nontrinitarian terms:




God addresses the "Son" as "God". Not a problem to explain from a Trinitarian point of view. It's obviously God the Father addressing God the Son. Now it's your turn, Boxjobox. Why does God address the Son as God if the Son is not God?
A few thing to consider: the introduction talks about God the one who is over all, who is the principal actor in all that follows. The son is appointed heir- God is not heir, in that all things are God's. Ephesians 1-3 explain this. And later in Hebrews it says how for the joy set before him, Jesus endured the cross. The reward of being placed over all by God motivated Jesus, as well as his obedience to God, his Father. Jesus fully expresses God. Angels are spirits. Jesus sat at the right hand of God. You are my son, today I have begotten you- seems to point to the time of resurrection/ascension.
You left out the second half of the quote: “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”” This speaks of the God of Jesus, the One true God, the one who is above all. The One, who as companions of Jesus get to partake of Jesus' inheritance, and the ones who now can approach God as our Father for His great grace.
*
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:00 AM   #657
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So you do believe that God and the Holy Spirit are separate entities it would seem. This means there is a Spirit God and also a Holy Spirit...so you must believe that the Holy Spirit is not the true God. Denial of the Spirit surely has sealed your eternal fate unless you turn to the Lord Spirit.
I would ask you to read the account of Cornelius' salvation in Acts, and look carefully at what Peter tells him and what takes place. You preach a different gospel, and it's not good to live under that curse!
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:06 AM   #658
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Jesus spoke to the opposing Jews and identified His own words as the words of God.

These Jews got the message, and referred to Jesus own words.
Can you imagine being God's unique spokesman on earth, speaking to the people who are supposed to be God's unique people, who had received from other lesser of God's spokespeople that you were coming and being rejected because you were speaking God's words?
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Old 03-29-2018, 09:48 AM   #659
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A few thing to consider: the introduction talks about God the one who is over all, who is the principal actor in all that follows. The son is appointed heir- God is not heir, in that all things are God's. Ephesians 1-3 explain this. And later in Hebrews it says how for the joy set before him, Jesus endured the cross. The reward of being placed over all by God motivated Jesus, as well as his obedience to God, his Father. Jesus fully expresses God. Angels are spirits. Jesus sat at the right hand of God. You are my son, today I have begotten you- seems to point to the time of resurrection/ascension.
You left out the second half of the quote: “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”” This speaks of the God of Jesus, the One true God, the one who is above all. The One, who as companions of Jesus get to partake of Jesus' inheritance, and the ones who now can approach God as our Father for His great grace.
*
I could have quoted the entire book of Hebrews, but then you could have called me for not quoting the rest of the New Testament. You, on the other hand, left out the central point that God the Father calls God the Son "God". I don't see how the author could have made his belief that the Son of God was God much clearer than to have God the Father declare it. That God the Father is the Son of God's God wasn't a problem from the author's point of view like it is from yours.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:01 AM   #660
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When Jesus rose from being dead, and came to the weeping Mary M, he told Mary not cling to him because he had not yet ascended to his Father, of Whom, Jesus told Mary to tell his brethren that he was ascending to his Father and their Father, and his God and their God.

Before Jesus passion, he prayed to God his Father in the presence of his brethren and said eternal life was to know the only true God, his Father and Jesus the one whom the Father sent.

The whole thing about making Jesus God, and making God triune, distorts the truth, presents a false image of God and Christ. You love the words of Jesus up to the point it interferes with triunism, then ignore Jesus' plain speaking. That is not healthy for you or for Christianity because it causes a dogma to replace scripture. I may be wrong, but I doubt up until now, you have ever considered the God of Jesus.
You definitely got this wrong. Faced with hundreds of scripture, you still refuse to believe that God the Son, who became man, is both God and man. My explanations require the gift of faith in order to believe the scripture. Your explanations require endless mental contortions and misrepresentations of scripture.

I realize that real faith is discredited and sometimes mocked on this sub-forum, but I prefer this faith in God's word to all the alternatives proposed by you and others.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:06 AM   #661
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Can you imagine being God's unique spokesman on earth, speaking to the people who are supposed to be God's unique people, who had received from other lesser of God's spokespeople that you were coming and being rejected because you were speaking God's words?
Yes, I can imagine! That's what happened!

The Jews did reject Jesus, and they crucified Him for being a man and making Himself God. (John 5.18 and 10.33)

Unless Jesus had done this and told them who He really was, He would never have been crucified, and would not have become our Savior.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:16 AM   #662
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I would ask you to read the account of Cornelius' salvation in Acts, . . .
Hey hey! Alert bro zeek.

When the angel came to Cornelius Cornelius said, and I quote : "What is it, Lord?"

We have another Lord. Now there's more than two Lords.
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Old 03-29-2018, 04:02 PM   #663
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What is this and who is it speaking about? :

"The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth, before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world.
When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman, and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the children of man.
"And now, O sons, listen to me: blessed are those who keep my ways.
Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it.
Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.
For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the LORD,"
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Old 03-30-2018, 07:26 AM   #664
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Now c'mon. Somebody have a go at it. It's important. It ain't April 1.
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:32 AM   #665
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Hey hey! Alert bro zeek.

When the angel came to Cornelius Cornelius said, and I quote : "What is it, Lord?"

We have another Lord. Now there's more than two Lords.
I don't see what this adds to the discussion. We have already gone over the passage in I Cor 8 where Paul contrasts many lords with the one true Lord. Assuming Luke shares Paul's christology, Cornelius was addressing one of "many lords" not the one Lord through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

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I Cor: 8: 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:44 AM   #666
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You definitely got this wrong. Faced with hundreds of scripture, you still refuse to believe that God the Son, who became man, is both God and man. My explanations require the gift of faith in order to believe the scripture. Your explanations require endless mental contortions and misrepresentations of scripture.

I realize that real faith is discredited and sometimes mocked on this sub-forum, but I prefer this faith in God's word to all the alternatives proposed by you and others.
Ohio, when you introduce terms such as God the Son, and tie that to real faith and scripture, you create a gaping hole in truth. Am I supposed to rely on non- scriptural concepts to gain "faith"? It seems to me, you look at scripture and faith through a millennia of trinitarianism and blame me for not doing the same. Can you really read 1 & 2 Thessalonians and really think Paul preached trinitarianism?

The scripture we have for the NT was written long before the councils that set up the beliefs of the Holy Roman Empire. You are following the religion of the HRE, and saying I lack faith to see it or refuse to accept it. I feel your real stumbling block is that Paul and Jesus both declared that truth is that there is One True God, the Father.
I have pointed this out repeatedly, yet this declaration is snowed over by trinitarianism. Unfortunately, this has left you in a tough situation, in that for the rest of your life, you will now see this in the scripture, and it will be you who will have to go through mental gymnastics to avoid confronting it. It will be like reading "call no man Father" and then confronting the catholic priest!
I would encourage you to pick up Ephesians, slowly read through it, being careful to understand and grasp the nomenclature, and grasp the revelation Paul wants us all to see. And then, try your best to follow the elements of the oneness Paul begs us to keep in Eph 4. All of this will require you to lay aside trinitarianism, but the reward will be a freedom from the HRE religion.
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:56 AM   #667
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Yes, I can imagine! That's what happened!

The Jews did reject Jesus, and they crucified Him for being a man and making Himself God. (John 5.18 and 10.33)

Unless Jesus had done this and told them who He really was, He would never have been crucified, and would not have become our Savior.
Hmmm- let's see: before he was crucified he talked about the only true God, the Father, on the cross he cried out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", when he resurrected he talked about his God and our God, his Father and our Father, in ascension, and as the head of the church, he talked about his God.

The apostle he called to send to the Gentiles also talked about the one true God, the Father.

When Jesus was crucified the crime listed over his head was " the king of the Jews".
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:57 AM   #668
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I don't see what this adds to the discussion. We have already gone over the passage in I Cor 8 where Paul contrasts many lords with the one true Lord. Assuming Luke shares Paul's christology, Cornelius was addressing one of "many lords" not the one Lord through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
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I Cor: 8: 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
"Many gods and many lords?" Many gods? Sure there were many lords back then, but many gods too?

Doesn't this diminish Thomas' remark of Jesus at the end of John, "My Lord and my God."

If many lords and many gods were in the air back then, then such a remark wouldn't be that big of a deal ... and not meaning that Jesus was actually God.
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:03 AM   #669
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Ohio, when you introduce terms such as God the Son, and tie that to real faith and scripture, you create a gaping hole in truth. Am I supposed to rely on non- scriptural concepts to gain "faith"? It seems to me, you look at scripture and faith through a millennia of trinitarianism and blame me for not doing the same. Can you really read 1 & 2 Thessalonians and really think Paul preached trinitarianism?
My faith is not based only on Paul's letters to the Thessalonians, but all scripture.

Neither is my faith based on some BogeyMan called trinitarianism, which you have created.

The more I read all the verses you reference, the more I am persuaded that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

Sorry that is too hard for you to believe.
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:31 AM   #670
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I could have quoted the entire book of Hebrews, but then you could have called me for not quoting the rest of the New Testament. You, on the other hand, left out the central point that God the Father calls God the Son "God". I don't see how the author could have made his belief that the Son of God was God much clearer than to have God the Father declare it. That God the Father is the Son of God's God wasn't a problem from the author's point of view like it is from yours.
The one true God is the Father- this should be indisputable. The reason I said you left out part of the quote is that the "thy throne oh God" part doesn't stand alone. If you read through Psalm 45, where the whole quote originates, as well as Hebrews, it doesn't seem to me that anyone is trying to usurp the unique God with another, or add to God another God. God almighty does not have a God. Jesus made it clear that God is his God. Early creeds recognized God almighty, the Father, and then over time, modified their edicts as the Jesus is God thing evolved. Today, it is accepted as absolute truth by most that Jesus is God Almighty. You can tell by Hebrews that God almighty is not Jesus even by the opening statement in Heb 1.1.
Jesus and Paul make it clear that the one we acknowledge as God almighty is the Father, that the Father is the one true God. The entire NT holds this concept. It was creeds and teachings of men that warped this truth.

In Jerusalem was king Herod, but the king of the Roman Empire was Caesar. Context means a lot. If you are talking of who rules directly over Judaea it was Herod. If you're talking about who is really Mr. Big, it's Caesar. The Lord thing follows the same way.
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:35 AM   #671
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"Many gods and many lords?" Many gods? Sure there were many lords back then, but many gods too?

Doesn't this diminish Thomas' remark of Jesus at the end of John, "My Lord and my God."

If many lords and many gods were in the air back then, then such a remark wouldn't be that big of a deal ... and not meaning that Jesus was actually God.
No. Paul consistent with second temple Judaism does not recognize the other so-called gods as truely God. The shema declares that there is only one true God. Thomas would have been embracing polytheism if he thought Jesus was only one of many true gods. The author of The Gospel of John doesn't imply anything like that. That would have been a very big deal.
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Old 03-30-2018, 09:36 AM   #672
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My faith is not based only on Paul's letters to the Thessalonians, but all scripture.

Neither is my faith based on some BogeyMan called trinitarianism, which you have created.

The more I read all the verses you reference, the more I am persuaded that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.

Sorry that is too hard for you to believe.
“Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him, ” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”
**I Corinthians‬ *15:24-28‬ *NKJV‬‬