An outsider's look into a Local Church

[Unsure]

So, on the Sunday two weeks ago, I noticed a person sitting in the meeting that I didn't recognize. Turns out she was an independent blogger (journalist?) going around to different churches in the city and making notes on them. She sat through the singing, the prophesying meeting, had lunch with us, and then left.

Yesterday, I was browsing her blog and noticed that she had put an article up about us, detailing her thoughts on the worship service (we were number 55 on her mission to visit 100 churches in the city)

http://100churches100sundays.blogspo...aints.html?m=1

Funny read, to say the least. Never really thought of using the *facedesk* emote(?) to describe some of Witness Lee's theology, but it works. I did send her an email yesterday clearing some things up (including what the "Church of Saints" was actually called) and pointed her in the direction of some reading material from Steve Isitt and Jane Anderson as well as the Open Letter.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unsure

So, on the Sunday two weeks ago, I noticed a person sitting in the meeting that I didn't recognize. Turns out she was an independent blogger (journalist?) going around to different churches in the city and making notes on them. She sat through the singing, the prophesying meeting, had lunch with us, and then left.

Yesterday, I was browsing her blog and noticed that she had put an article up about us, detailing her thoughts on the worship service (we were number 55 on her mission to visit 100 churches in the city)

http://100churches100sundays.blogspo...aints.html?m=1

Funny read, to say the least. Never really thought of using the *facedesk* emote(?) to describe some of Witness Lee's theology, but it works. I did send her an email yesterday clearing some things up (including what the "Church of Saints" was actually called) and pointed her in the direction of some reading material from Steve Isitt and Jane Anderson as well as the Open Letter.

It is really interesting to read the perspective of an outsider. It also confirms my suspicions that an outsider not already 'conditioned' for the LC would find it to be highly irrelevant.

[TLFisher]

I thought she summed it up quite well:

Yes I agree that there are a lot of Christians out there that follow ritual and have no concept of Christ in their heart, and that these people are making no progress towards being closer to God. That is concerning for their sake and can also give the rest of us a bad name. But I don't think this church is the answer to this issue.

[Freedom]

Well it was cold. That was for sure. When I got to the building at 10am I discovered the doors were locked. I was then informed by two people idling in their vehicle that the church would be opened soon. So I stood by the door.....in the cold.....waiting for someone with a key.

I couldn't help laugh when I read this, because it pretty much describes a reoccurring problem that I have noticed over the years in the LC. By that, I am referring to a locked or empty meeting hall near the time when a meeting is scheduled to start. I remember a meeting once where no one had the key to the meeting hall, so we were locked out and proceeded to hold the meeting outside. It blew my mind how the brothers could be that negligent in relation to a basic task.

Talk about a lack of responsibility and coordination. LC leaders think that practical matters will just "work out" somehow, with no need to put forth any extra effort to coordinate things. That also says nothing to the fact of how unwelcoming it makes the environment for newcomers or the atmosphere of indifference it creates with long term members. I have read the stories about the early days of the LC, where meetings always started early. That might have actually been intriguing to outsiders to drop in on that kind of environment. LC leaders would do well to consider just how they come across to outsiders. Maybe it's for the better. It scares people away. I don't wish the LC upon anyone.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I couldn't help laugh when I read this, because it pretty much describes a reoccurring problem that I have noticed over the years in the LC. By that, I am referring to a locked or empty meeting hall near the time when a meeting is scheduled to start. I remember a meeting once where no one had the key to the meeting hall, so we were locked out and proceeded to hold the meeting outside. It blew my mind how the brothers could be that negligent in relation to a basic task.

Talk about a lack of responsibility and coordination. LC leaders think that practical matters will just "work out" somehow, with no need to put forth any extra effort to coordinate things. That also says nothing to the fact of how unwelcoming it makes the environment for newcomers or the atmosphere of indifference it creates with long term members. I have read the stories about the early days of the LC, where meetings always started early. That might have actually been intriguing to outsiders to drop in on that kind of environment. LC leaders would do well to consider just how they come across to outsiders. Maybe it's for the better. It scares people away. I don't wish the LC upon anyone.

Not to be a party pooper here, but here's my take ...

A couple of the churches visited by that blogger were in Edmonton, Alberta, which is well nigh the North Pole in the dead of winter. In my LC, much further south I should add, I used to be the guy who would go to the meeting hall on Saturday afternoon just to crank up the heat, hoping to make it tolerable for the Lord's Day Meeting. Those old buildings never seemed to get warm. I probably needed a whole week to heat that place up in January.

Many times I went to the Meeting Hall hours early to pray on Sunday morning, then shovel snow with the brothers, and then we raced home to eat and get our families back to church on time, and somehow in the mix we forgot to leave the door unlocked. It would burn me up hearing other brothers whine when they arrived a little "inconvenienced."

Thank the Lord, however, for some warm food in a warm basement.

I liked this comment she made, "My conclusions on this church are simple. It was a good idea that kind of went sideways." I agree. Living Sideways Ministry it is.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not to be a party pooper here, but here's my take ...

A couple of the churches visited by that blogger were in Edmonton, Alberta, which is well nigh the North Pole in the dead of winter. In my LC, much further south I should add, I used to be the guy who would go to the meeting hall on Saturday afternoon just to crank up the heat, hoping to make it tolerable for the Lord's Day Meeting. Those old buildings never seemed to get warm. I probably needed a whole week to heat that place up in January.

Many times I went to the Meeting Hall hours early to pray on Sunday morning, then shovel snow with the brothers, and then we raced home to eat and get our families back to church on time, and somehow in the mix we forgot to leave the door unlocked. It would burn me up hearing other brothers whine when they arrived a little "inconvenienced."

Thank the Lord, however, for some warm food in a warm basement.

I liked this comment she made, "My conclusions on this church are simple. It was a good idea that kind of went sideways." I agree. Living Sideways Ministry it is.

Since I'm from Southern California, we never really needed to have anyone arrive early to do anything. In fact, someone arriving on time to unlock the hall was usually sufficient. So maybe the criticism is a bit more applicable out here than in other areas of the country.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I liked this comment she made, "My conclusions on this church are simple. It was a good idea that kind of went sideways." I agree. Living Sideways Ministry it is.

This reminds me of a story I heard, I think from GG. He was saying that WL was asking what it was to be builded up. He answered with his understanding. WL said, "No, it's not like that", and proceeded to give his understanding.

The LC was a place where everyone got to offer their folk theology, and WL would then supersede it with his own folk theology. When I say, 'folk theology' I mean that you look at the text and says, "This means this (to me)". What it has meant to Christians through the centuries is largely irrelevant unless you happen upon some understanding that seems to align with yours. Then you can reference that, to show how your interpretation or subjective impression is so orthodox.

As Nigel Tomes wrote in the comments section: "W. Lee's writings (interpretation) trumps the Bible (which merely provides the proof texts which launch into his teachings)."

You have Witness Lee's folk theology, which incorporates unending hostility against all forms of religion (Judaism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodox prominently included) which is itself become unquestionable (i.e. religious dogma) in a certain very narrow circle. Thus the strong aberrant ('sideways') flavor emanating therefrom.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

This reminds me of a story I heard, I think from GG. He was saying that WL was asking what it was to be builded up. He answered with his understanding. WL said, "No, it's not like that", and proceeded to give his understanding.

This reminds me of a conference with Witness Lee in Cleveland during Memorial Day weekend 1989, soon after the chaos in Anaheim, following the expulsion of John Ingalls and the other Anaheim elders. Supposedly the topic was the book of Colossians. Now, mind you, none of the GLA saints, with the exception of TC who had visited SoCal, had a clue what "really" happened during the recent "storm" which swept through the Recovery.

Lee's topic was "culture." Nobody understood what he was talking about, and all the meager attempts at testimonies were shot down by Lee. After several failures, one brother whom I knew was brave enough to attempt it. Lee quickly shot him down with, "that's your culture." Apparently we were all "cursed" with culture, all of us except for Lee, that is. There was an oppressive confusion which clouded the entire meeting hall in Cleveland of more than a thousand saints. We were made to believe by TC that "brother Lee sees things which we do not." The meeting concluded with us all shaking our heads and walking out.

It was, at best, "folk theology" as aron posted. Actually, in retrospect, it was Lee keeping us all under subjection. We were his kingdom, he was our "king" and we were all "dumb." Since we could not understand what he was teaching us, it was strong proof that we "needed" him, and that no one else could be trusted to help us. Forget about studying the Bible or even using our mind because we were way too steeped in our own "culture" to emerge from this sinking quicksand of helplessness.

Lee may have lost half of the SoCal Recovery due to Phillip's abusive streak, but this was his scheme to keep the GLA in the fold, at least for the time being. What we really needed to hear was a sobering repentance concerning how much damage Lee and son had wrought on God's people, complete with basic details. All Christians can understand that.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since we could not understand what [Lee] was teaching us, it was strong proof that we "needed" him, and that no one else could be trusted to help us. Forget about studying the Bible or even using our mind because we were way too steeped in our own "culture" to emerge from this sinking quicksand of helplessness.

And this conditioning, or grooming, pattern mirrors that in the abusive relationship where one partner beats on the other (either literally or figuratively) and then tells them how they have nowhere to go, that nobody else cares about them, or will save them. So the abuse continues, even intensifies.

This abuse-conditioning-abuse-conditioning cycle can be effectively used not only in personal relations but in societal settings, i.e. in cults, and "cultish" sects, as well. I'm thinking of, for instance, the Warren Jeffs cult of polygamists and child molesters in Utah, Arizona, and Nevada. The thought-systems can even be formalized with religiously-themed books like "Authority and Submission": scripture tells us that complete submission to the Maximum Leader's authority is the true path way to God. And whatever confusion, shame and trauma you experience along the way is entirely due your own failures; you're fortunate that the Maximum Leader Man of God even pays attention to you! You get to be one of his 39 wives!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

And this conditioning, or grooming, pattern mirrors that in the abusive relationship where one partner beats on the other (either literally or figuratively) and then tells them how they have nowhere to go, that nobody else cares about them, or will save them. So the abuse continues, even intensifies.

This is a good analogy, and it perfectly encapsulates the LC mindset. To the average LCer, it seems that things in the LC are always going awry. There is the never-ending quest to 'fix' things, to 'perfect' members so that these things don't happen again, and at then end of the day, blame is placed upon everyone but the real person and organization who are to be blamed.

All to often, when there is some LC failure, I heard the blame put upon members for not knowing about some inconsequential thing that WL spoke in his ministry.

For example, in the LC that I'm from, there was a big emphasis on WL's ministry regarding "new way" and shepherding. None of these things ever worked out as promised. We all were blamed for not putting these things into practice correctly. It thus kept us depending on WL's ministry for further 'perfecting' so that we would hopefully get things right at some point in the future.

[Intothewind]

I am somewhat pleased how low key the local church is once outside of it's grasp. Apparently I had been walking by the San Francisco meeting hall for months without noticing it. Folks pointed it out.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Intothewind

I am somewhat pleased how low key the local church is once outside of it's grasp. Apparently I had been walking by the San Francisco meeting hall for months without noticing it. Folks pointed it out.

There is an interesting video about the LC in San Francisco found here.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

For example, in the LC that I'm from, there was a big emphasis on WL's ministry regarding "new way" and shepherding. None of these things ever worked out as promised. We all were blamed for not putting these things into practice correctly.

The LC version of shepherding is like trying to catch water with a colander.
Just recite something LSM published and call on the Lord three times. That's the LC version of shepherding. Anything that requires praying and is outside the scope of LSM's latest and greatest, it's considered a waste of time. I'll admit it wasn't always that way, but that's what it has become.
For example in a home meeting if a brother has issues getting employed, or a sister has marriage issues, that's going off topic for the home meeting. The home meeting's brand of shepherding is we sing a few songs, we pray read a few verses, and we take turns reading the current HWFMR. Now that is their concept of shepherding.
Now, I've always had a problem with the nature of quarantines. Do you think the brothers and sisters want to go there?

[Intothewind]

Koinoma: ah yes, the whole "ive tried all sorts and there aren't people like this elsewhere..."