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[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good point. But my dad considered himself a Southern Baptist Christian. Hating blacks wasn't against Southern Baptist Christianity. The Southern Baptist church was started in support of holding blacks as slaves.

Are Southern Baptists not Christians?

Yes, Southern Baptists are Christians, but the justification of slavery is not.

Yes there are verses in the Bible to people who are in slavery. All Nat Turner proved is that if they revolted it would result in twice as many getting killed and mistreated. Blessed are the meek because they will inherit the earth, that applies to those in slavery. It took 100 years but in the end the nation went down that road and came to an unbridgeable divide where both sides needed the "slaves", hence the North "freed" them. It took another 100 years to get meaningful civil rights legislation and voter rights. It then took another 50 years to get a Black president. In the grand scheme of Human history 250 years is like 6 hours of a single day.

People confuse verses that tell the individual to submit to the situation in which they are to justifying unrighteousness.

They also confuse a world 4,000 years ago that used slave labor (without an underlying racial bigotry) with today where we have replaced slave labor with machines and fossil fuel.

Slavery is not a Christian institution, nor is it a Biblical institution. The Bible instructs people who live in this world to live righteously and that includes treatment of slave labor thousands of years ago. The South's treatment was not righteous and required some kind of racial bigotry to force it on the people.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So asking when Christianity became about group-hate is group-hating them? And being against group-hate is group-hate? Sounds like you support group-hate. If so, why?

But you don't "ask," rather you make regular application of group hate to all Christians, southern baptist or not, past and present.

This discussion was never about hate or group hate, but about fear. It was not me who made it about hate. This is a common liberal ploy. If I say that I am afraid of people who act suspiciously and cover their faces with hoodies or masks, then it gets interpreted as racist group hate. It's not hate, it's fear.

I remember one so-called public service commercial on TV. It pictured a white man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" Then it changed the picture to a black man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" I stood and protested, "NO! I have no problem with either of them!"

Then I went on to complain about how deceitful the message was. Why don't they show a public service announcement like this: Picture a black man professionally dressed, and asked, "do you have a problem with him?" Next show a white kid in a hoodie, hanging out at the mall, and ask "do you have a problem with him?"

This highlights the dishonesty of today's racial narrative.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

Slavery in the US was accompanied with many who tried to "justify" it with Bible verses. My guess is that Awareness can give many excellent examples to support this claim.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Slavery in the US was accompanied with many who tried to "justify" it with Bible verses. My guess is that Awareness can give many excellent examples to support this claim.

But that was 160 years ago. And history tells us that the Democrats in power, northern and southern, are the ones who kept slavery in place.

Shall I maintain the same bigoted attitudes towards all Catholics today for what the Pope did in 1487?

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But that was 160 years ago. And history tells us that the Democrats in power, northern and southern, are the ones who kept slavery in place.

Shall I maintain the same bigoted attitudes towards all Catholics today for what the Pope did in 1487?

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

Yes, true. I wouldn't paint all Catholics based on the sins of those who sit in Moses seat.

Yes, but apparently Awareness and others were raised in an environment where the Bible was presented as not being neutral.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did I do that? Never met his dad.

Perhaps the vestiges of group hate came from Mel Porter.

Good point. And perhaps that's why I resisted Mel. My dad made group-hate ugly.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Did they use the bible to justify their prejudices?

My Dad was Prussian / German, and I heard lots of derogatory jokes about Pollocks and Jews, but I never equated them to God, the Bible, or him being a Catholic / christian.

Why wouldn't you have? But then Catholics have never seemed as serious about their religion as Southern Baptists, so I wouldn't know. My dad, and my mom, made it plain and out front. I couldn't miss it.

But it was because I saw the failures in the SBC that I was attracted to the local church all-in characteristics. They seemed to be more true. It took me time to discover the hypocrisy in the local church.

In the end they both failed me. And I guess I'm a little pissed off about it. Sorry if I'm taking it out on you guys. Y'all never done anything to me. Mea culpa.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But you don't "ask," rather you make regular application of group hate to all Christians, southern baptist or not, past and present.

This discussion was never about hate or group hate, but about fear. It was not me who made it about hate. This is a common liberal ploy. If I say that I am afraid of people who act suspiciously and cover their faces with hoodies or masks, then it gets interpreted as racist group hate. It's not hate, it's fear.

Very good point. And it's natural to fear those that differ from us. Those Arabs are so different from us. So we fear them. And if we're a Bible beliver we'll find Biblical justification for that fear.

And that's what has happened. The Bible has been used to support hate and fear. Is it the Bible's fault? Yes and no. The Bible came from people, living in very hard and scary times. Seems everybody was warring with somebody, in the Bible. And in the Bible even God claims to be a God of war (Exo 15:3).

And what about all those wars the Israelites had with various other tribes? Doesn't that kind of thinking sink into the Bible reader? In a sense we could claim that racists come to the Bible, but in another sense we could claim the Bible creates racism into the reader. Maybe it's both ways.

Still bro Ohio, as a Christian what do we have to fear?

I just don't think the New Man is gripped by fear and hate.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And concerning slavery, the Bible is basically neutral towards the institution.

That's a mischaracterization. The Bible regulates slavery, providing rules. But it doesn't forbid it anywhere, both Old and New.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, true. I wouldn't paint all Catholics based on the sins of those who sit in Moses seat.

Yes, but apparently Awareness and others were raised in an environment where the Bible was presented as not being neutral.

Right. Forming a Christian group in support of slavery, and using the Bible to back it up, is not neutral.

Using Ham is not neutral. Using Ishmael is not neutral.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Right. Forming a Christian group in support of slavery, and using the Bible to back it up, is not neutral.

Using Ham is not neutral. Using Ishmael is not neutral.

And Satan appearing as an angel of light is not neutral.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

And Satan appearing as an angel of light is not neutral.

Here an angel of light, there an angel of light, everywhere an angel of light.

So where did that response come from? And what does it mean, and to what does it apply? What does a shape-shifting Satan have to do with our discussion (does Satan have a shape - can he dance on the head of a pin?)?

Inquiring minds want to know???

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Here an angel of light, there an angel of light, everywhere an angel of light.

So where did that response come from? And what does it mean, and to what does it apply? What does a shape-shifting Satan have to do with our discussion (does Satan have a shape - can he dance on the head of a pin?)?

Inquiring minds want to know???

Every single person has an agenda. The apostles had an agenda (though we refer to it as a calling, a mission), slave owners have an agenda, etc., etc.,

Just because someone uses a verse from the Bible to justify their position doesn't make it so, anymore than Satan using the Bible to tempt Jesus.

The expression of the Christian position is Jesus. This same Jesus made it very clear that He is the fulfillment of the OT, He didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Trump quotes the Bible that God's love is made complete in us.

Hillary Clinton quotes the Bible "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Everyone and anyone can read the Bible, quote the Bible, use the Bible to justify their position. That doesn't make it true. And it certainly does mean that their position and agenda are "Biblical".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Every single person has an agenda. The apostles had an agenda (though we refer to it as a calling, a mission), slave owners have an agenda, etc., etc.,

Just because someone uses a verse from the Bible to justify their position doesn't make it so, anymore than Satan using the Bible to tempt Jesus.

The expression of the Christian position is Jesus. This same Jesus made it very clear that He is the fulfillment of the OT, He didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.

Trump quotes the Bible that God's love is made complete in us.

Hillary Clinton quotes the Bible "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

Everyone and anyone can read the Bible, quote the Bible, use the Bible to justify their position. That doesn't make it true. And it certainly does mean that their position and agenda are "Biblical".

Yes but many people suffered immensely because the Bible, that you believe is Gods' word, doesn't forbid slavery.

That should send a strong warning and signal that we shouldn't trust or use the Bible to support group-hate of any kind.

I'm with Jesus on this, according to the gospel we call Matthew:

Mat 22:36-40: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

[awareness]

Bro Ohio has been hard on me for being hard on Christians and Jews but soft on Muslims.

But I can be hard on these Christians and Jews:

Christians And Jews Team Up To Help Muslims After Texas Mosque Fire
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...0af07cb6b8929?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes but many people suffered immensely because the Bible, that you believe is Gods' word, doesn't forbid slavery.

That should send a strong warning and signal that we shouldn't trust or use the Bible to support group-hate of any kind.

I'm with Jesus on this, according to the gospel we call Matthew:

Mat 22:36-40: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

We did not have slavery because of the Bible. Egypt did not have slaves because of the Bible. Sumeria did not have slaves because of the Bible. The Bible is a book about slaves finding freedom from slavery.

The context was of slavery being the main economy of the day. However, unlike Egypt the Bible prohibited "institutionalized" slavery but with the slavery offered a path to freedom.

The Bible records slaves praying for deliverance, God hearing them and sending them Moses. He then performed a number of miracles to release them from the grip of Pharaoh culminating with the defeat of Pharaoh at the Red Sea. The Bible then records God commanding the Israelites to not take advantage of others remembering that "they also were slaves in Egypt".

You see the suffering that slaves go through, but what about those who are slaves of sin? Donald Trump has given us a window into the tortured lives of billionaires. Sometimes we forget about the pain and suffering that these billionaires go through but Jesus even came to save them as well.

[zeek]

A Pervert, a Con Artist and a Fascist walk into a bar.
The bartender says, "What'll it be Mr. President?"

[ZNPaaneah]

Hitler struck a chord with everyone who wanted to blame someone else for their failures and defeats. After WWI instead of reflecting on what they had done wrong, their mistakes, their errors, many wanted to blame someone else. Hitler fed this desire. In retrospect from our historical vantage point he is a puny, hateful man. But to those who were looking for permission to find a scapegoat Hitler was "charismatic", "spoke from the heart", "impassioned", with "strength of character". It all depends on the glasses you look at him with. What you thought about Hitler revealed what was in your own heart.

For all the comparisons between Trump and Hitler one needs to remember that Hitler's brand of hate only resonated with a very small number of people in Germany. He never had anything near to the tens of millions that are responding to Trump. To me that is a very big distinction. I find it difficult to believe that 40+ million would have the kind of hateful heart that Hitler had.

With Trump I feel the concern is "are we hearing what we want to hear"? Everyone wants more jobs, less chaos, more law and order, safe borders, no terrorist attacks and lower taxes. I was under the impression that the loss of jobs was due to globalization and massive technological change / advances. He is telling us that they are due to poorly negotiated trade deals. I hope he is right. At the very least I think the ability to negotiate trade deals is a very important skill in a President and we will see if he can deliver what he is boasting about.

"The truth is most of us discover where we are heading when we arrive" (Calvin and Hobbes)

[zeek]

Last night Trump said the time for trivial fights is over. That should leave him with a lot of free time on his hands.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Last night Trump said the time for trivial fights is over. That should leave him with a lot of free time on his hands.

I want to see how he does on rebuilding infrastructure, renegotiating trade deals, and foreign policy.

I think the privatization of education is a given, I have been preparing for it for about six years. I was stunned to hear that he is suggesting using the money for home schooling, even though I have homeschooled 3 kids for a several years each I think that is a terrible idea. Are people going to pull kids out of school so their parents can get an extra $10,000 per kid? What happens to the stereotypical welfare mother with five kids? Is she now going to pull kids out so she can get $50,000 a year? Is the trailer trash grandma now going to homeschool 10 grandkids so the hillbilly dynasty can make an extra 100k?

I also think his plan for success is to shut down all the regulating agencies to get money for his budget proposals. It seems like the fulfillment of the 7 fires prophecy, he is the one choosing cinders and ash road. So much for one bowl and one spoon. That was well and good while there was plenty, but now that Climate change is starting to cause climate refugees it is batton down the hatches, seal the borders, and "I only represent the US". Spoken like a true Wendigo.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I want to see how he does on rebuilding infrastructure, renegotiating trade deals, and foreign policy.

I think the privatization of education is a given, I have been preparing for it for about six years. I was stunned to hear that he is suggesting using the money for home schooling, even though I have homeschooled 3 kids for a several years each I think that is a terrible idea. Are people going to pull kids out of school so their parents can get an extra $10,000 per kid? What happens to the stereotypical welfare mother with five kids? Is she now going to pull kids out so she can get $50,000 a year? Is the trailer trash grandma now going to homeschool 10 grandkids so the hillbilly dynasty can make an extra 100k?

I also think his plan for success is to shut down all the regulating agencies to get money for his budget proposals. It seems like the fulfillment of the 7 fires prophecy, he is the one choosing cinders and ash road. So much for one bowl and one spoon. That was well and good while there was plenty, but now that Climate change is starting to cause climate refugees it is batton down the hatches, seal the borders, and "I only represent the US". Spoken like a true Wendigo.

DC Republicans were happy just to have Trump stay on teleprompter with a script that positively reframed his campaign rhetoric. The lowest point was his proposal of a new agency to regularly publish a list of all crimes committed by immigrants. Clearly Trump wants to ratchet up the hate. The announcement was met with audible groans.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We did not have slavery because of the Bible. Egypt did not have slaves because of the Bible. Sumeria did not have slaves because of the Bible. The Bible is a book about slaves finding freedom from slavery.

The context was of slavery being the main economy of the day. However, unlike Egypt the Bible prohibited "institutionalized" slavery but with the slavery offered a path to freedom.

The Bible records slaves praying for deliverance, God hearing them and sending them Moses. He then performed a number of miracles to release them from the grip of Pharaoh culminating with the defeat of Pharaoh at the Red Sea. The Bible then records God commanding the Israelites to not take advantage of others remembering that "they also were slaves in Egypt".

You see the suffering that slaves go through, but what about those who are slaves of sin? Donald Trump has given us a window into the tortured lives of billionaires. Sometimes we forget about the pain and suffering that these billionaires go through but Jesus even came to save them as well.

Of course slavery existed before one word of the Bible was written down. Moreover, the Bible was written in times when slavery was a commonly accepted practice. And yes the Bible regulates slavery. But it never calls it wrong. Why? Precisely because it was written during those times. So it's not right to attribute it to God, it was culturally determined.

I say this because we now see slavery as wrong, and God's morals and ethics are higher than ours, so He must see it as wrong too. If so, then the writers of the books of the Bible failed to pass on this moral high standard against slavery in their writings. Or maybe God became a lying spirit in the hands of the writers for reasons we don't know, and decided not to put an end to slavery. I guess God maybe works sufferings in mysterious ways.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Of course slavery existed before one word of the Bible was written down. Moreover, the Bible was written in times when slavery was a commonly accepted practice. And yes the Bible regulates slavery. But it never calls it wrong. Why? Precisely because it was written during those times. So it's not right to attribute it to God, it was culturally determined.

I say this because we now see slavery as wrong, and God's morals and ethics are higher than ours, so He must see it as wrong too. If so, then the writers of the books of the Bible failed to pass on this moral high standard against slavery in their writings. Or maybe God became a lying spirit in the hands of the writers for reasons we don't know, and decided not to put an end to slavery. I guess God maybe works sufferings in mysterious ways.

That was hysterical I almost thought you were serious. We now see slavery as wrong, that is why we stopped?! You are certainly kidding.

We now see it is cheaper to pay some kid in Indonesia to make our shoes at a minuscule cost without us being responsible for housing, feeding, and caring for him for the rest of his life. If he wants a raise no problem, we'll move the operation to Vietnam. When they want a raise we can go to Malaysia, etc., etc.

How are the labor practices in China any better than slavery? We just don't call it slavery, but it is.

We have replaced a whole lot of what slaves used to do with appliances, machines, electrical appliances and those run by fossil fuel. We never got rid of slavery because we thought it was morally wrong. We got rid of it when it was no longer economically advantageous. A washing machine, dryer, dishwasher are a whole lot cheaper than a slave.

No doubt there were many people who were bothered by it morally, perhaps even Lincoln, but that isn't what paid for the Civil war, nor is it the reason the North and South went to war.

Today in the US we have many slaves. Yes it may be technically illegal, but lets be real, slavery is still practiced around the world, and although in some forms it is technically "illegal" in many forms it is the standard operating procedure.

The Bible records real slaves being emancipated from one of the cruelest institutionalized slavery in human history. Revelation from the Bible helped our Civil Rights movement, India's emancipation from Britain, and even started in South Africa with Ghandi.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That was hysterical I almost thought you were serious. We now see slavery as wrong, that is why we stopped?! You are certainly kidding.

We now see it is cheaper to pay some kid in Indonesia to make our shoes at a minuscule cost without us being responsible for housing, feeding, and caring for him for the rest of his life. If he wants a raise no problem, we'll move the operation to Vietnam. When they want a raise we can go to Malaysia, etc., etc.

How are the labor practices in China any better than slavery? We just don't call it slavery, but it is.

We have replaced a whole lot of what slaves used to do with appliances, machines, electrical appliances and those run by fossil fuel. We never got rid of slavery because we thought it was morally wrong. We got rid of it when it was no longer economically advantageous. A washing machine, dryer, dishwasher are a whole lot cheaper than a slave.

No doubt there were many people who were bothered by it morally, perhaps even Lincoln, but that isn't what paid for the Civil war, nor is it the reason the North and South went to war.

Today in the US we have many slaves. Yes it may be technically illegal, but lets be real, slavery is still practiced around the world, and although in some forms it is technically "illegal" in many forms it is the standard operating procedure.

The Bible records real slaves being emancipated from one of the cruelest institutionalized slavery in human history. Revelation from the Bible helped our Civil Rights movement, India's emancipation from Britain, and even started in South Africa with Ghandi.

Maybe God is laughing ; and plays as loosey-goosey with the definition of slavery as you too.

By your definition anyone that is employed is a slave ; you, for example, are a slave to the school bd.

But when I think of slavery I think of buying and selling humans like they are livestock, and the Fugitive Slave Act, and the underground railroad ; humans held in captivity.

Even your example, of the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt (if that even really happened), was an example of slaves in captivity. They weren't paid employees, that could quit and walk away.

At any rate, I guess you are saying that slavery is just fine with God, and that's why the Bible doesn't forbid it, and therefore the Bible was directly inspired by God, without any cultural influences having any bearing whatsoever on the text.

Now that is laughable.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe God is laughing ; and plays as loosey-goosey with the definition of slavery as you too.

By your definition anyone that is employed is a slave ; you, for example, are a slave to the school bd.

But when I think of slavery I think of buying and selling humans like they are livestock, and the Fugitive Slave Act, and the underground railroad ; humans held in captivity.

Even your example, of the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt (if that even really happened), was an example of slaves in captivity. They weren't paid employees, that could quit and walk away.

At any rate, I guess you are saying that slavery is just fine with God, and that's why the Bible doesn't forbid it, and therefore the Bible was directly inspired by God, without any cultural influences having any bearing whatsoever on the text.

Now that is laughable.

According to the Bible they could walk away. People were sold into slavery to pay off debts, once the debt was paid they could walk away. People were taken as slaves in war, but once a certain period was over they could walk away.

Read the Jungle, those conditions in the meat packing plants were worse than slavery for most.

Sweatshops pay a rate that will not allow the person to escape poverty so they are essentially a slave until they get sick, in which case they don't work, they don't get paid and they don't have benefits. Also, they then lose their job. Unlike a slave who might get medical care and who had "a job for life".

I am not playing loosey goosey with the definition, I am using your definition. What I am saying is that the reason we stopped using slave labor is because it is more expensive than sweatshops. You have to buy, feed, and care for a slave for life even though 20 years of that time might not be profitable work. With a sweatshop they just pay for those who can work. You don't raise them as children prior to when they can work and you don't care for them when they are elderly. There are no health benefits and no vacation time. The average slave had it much better than the average sweatshop worker does today.

My point was that you think it was some kind of moral enlightenment that did away with slavery. It was simple economics and greed.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

According to the Bible they could walk away. People were sold into slavery to pay off debts, once the debt was paid they could walk away. People were taken as slaves in war, but once a certain period was over they could walk away.

Read the Jungle, those conditions in the meat packing plants were worse than slavery for most.

Sweatshops pay a rate that will not allow the person to escape poverty so they are essentially a slave until they get sick, in which case they don't work, they don't get paid and they don't have benefits. Also, they then lose their job. Unlike a slave who might get medical care and who had "a job for life".

I am not playing loosey goosey with the definition, I am using your definition. What I am saying is that the reason we stopped using slave labor is because it is more expensive than sweatshops. You have to buy, feed, and care for a slave for life even though 20 years of that time might not be profitable work. With a sweatshop they just pay for those who can work. You don't raise them as children prior to when they can work and you don't care for them when they are elderly. There are no health benefits and no vacation time. The average slave had it much better than the average sweatshop worker does today.

My point was that you think it was some kind of moral enlightenment that did away with slavery. It was simple economics and greed.

So, in your assessment, the US abolished slavery based on economics and greed. Got it. What about you? Do you think slavery is OK? Yes or no.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

According to the Bible they could walk away. People were sold into slavery to pay off debts, once the debt was paid they could walk away. People were taken as slaves in war, but once a certain period was over they could walk away.

Read the Jungle, those conditions in the meat packing plants were worse than slavery for most.

Sweatshops pay a rate that will not allow the person to escape poverty so they are essentially a slave until they get sick, in which case they don't work, they don't get paid and they don't have benefits. Also, they then lose their job. Unlike a slave who might get medical care and who had "a job for life".

I am not playing loosey goosey with the definition, I am using your definition. What I am saying is that the reason we stopped using slave labor is because it is more expensive than sweatshops. You have to buy, feed, and care for a slave for life even though 20 years of that time might not be profitable work. With a sweatshop they just pay for those who can work. You don't raise them as children prior to when they can work and you don't care for them when they are elderly. There are no health benefits and no vacation time. The average slave had it much better than the average sweatshop worker does today.

My point was that you think it was some kind of moral enlightenment that did away with slavery. It was simple economics and greed.

Okay, okay! I get it. The Bible equivocates on the meaning of slavery. And makes it hard to pin down.

The problem is that it never forbids it. If it had, the West, being of the Bible, wouldn't have participated in the slave trade. And even more important to me, my cradle religion wouldn't have had any Biblical ground to stand on in their support for slavery.

Then maybe the states wouldn't have been divided enough for a civil war to happen, and our first republican president wouldn't have killed the republic.

If only the Bible, Jesus, and followers thereafter, had forbidden slavery.

They didn't. ". . . the idea of human rights, that is, the notion that a human being has a set of inviolable rights simply on grounds of being human, began during the era of renaissance humanism in the early modern period."*

It took renaissance humanism, not the Bible, to recognize that slavery was/is wrong.

* Reference = "History of human rights" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_rights

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

So, in your assessment, the US abolished slavery based on economics and greed. Got it. What about you? Do you think slavery is OK? Yes or no.

I am responding to this on the new thread I started specifically about slavery in the Bible. I would prefer if you (or the moderator) move this question to that thread.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump's appeals to ultra-nationalism, his scapegoating of ethnic groups, his fear mongering to angry working-class voters and his presentation of himself as the strong man who can fix every problem [the man card] through the force of his will all have echoes of fascist political leaders of the past like Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco.

Trump is like these men in the sense of his appeal to nationalism and building his campaign on problems rather than solutions. Most people focus on the terrible things these men did in hindsight, however at the time the masses followed them because they made big promises and blamed other people for their woes.

The tactic is the same, blame someone else (muslims, Hillary, China, the media, Obama etc), and get people to follow you by making big promises. Like Germany, people followed these dictators because they gave them renewed hope for a better country, a better life, better economy.

Trump is unlike these men in the sense that he is perhaps the first Commander in Chief who needs his hand held while walking down the stairs in a bath robe. He has no military experience nor committed any great acts of violence himself. Also, unlike Hitler he does not come from the "grass roots" movement he came to support. He cannot empathize with the people that voted for him or know what they are suffering unless he somehow relates it to his failed business or construction ventures.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

A racist reads a racist interpretation into a Bible verse. It's called "confirmation bias".

A liar who would wire tap his enemies reads a tyrannical interpretation into a news story he hears and assumes that the previous president wire tapped him without even realizing that as President he could confirm his suspicion without playing the fool for the whole world to see. It's called confirmation bias.

Does anyone know what is going on?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

A liar who would wire tap his enemies reads a tyrannical interpretation into a news story he hears and assumes that the previous president wire tapped him without even realizing that as President he could confirm his suspicion without playing the fool for the whole world to see. It's called confirmation bias.

Does anyone know what is going on?

Watch Hannity's interview with Mark Levin and Jay Sekulow.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Watch Hannity's interview with Mark Levin and Jay Sekulow.

I'll try to get to it tomorrow, it is 1 1/2 hours and it is too late for me tonight.

[ZNPaaneah]

President Trump must be held accountable for what he said concerning President Obama.

If he shrugs off these comments he will be an international joke, no credibility. This will cause irreparable damage to the office of the President if he is not held accountable.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

President Trump must be held accountable for what he said concerning President Obama.

If he shrugs off these comments he will be an international joke, no credibility. This will cause irreparable damage to the office of the President if he is not held accountable.

Are you serious?

Have you seen the interview with former congressman Dennis Kucinich?

He btw was my mayor when I left Cleveland, and later was congressman for my family home, and whose policies I NEVER agreed with. Obviously NOT a Trump surrogate, and now a huge embarrassment for Obama and Deep State.

Two years after DK left congress, journalists played for him his own taped conversations which were illegally obtained under the Obama administration intelligence related to the pending attack on Libya to take out Gaddafi. Just unbelievable!

Where are your calls to hold Obama accountable? Where is your feigned outrage about "irreparable damage to the office of the President if Obama is not held accountable?"

Obviously Obama was not the one tapping wires and listening to conversations at Trump Tower during the presidential campaign. But he and his people knew! Someone directed them to eavesdrop. That's why he signed that executive order 17 days before leaving office essentially declassifying illegal recordings. That's why he twice applied to FISA court for Trump and Company.

Obviously no proof is available because all this covert political action is protected.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you serious?

Have you seen the interview with former congressman Dennis Kucinich?

He btw was my mayor when I left Cleveland, and later was congressman for my family home, and whose policies I NEVER agreed with. Obviously NOT a Trump surrogate, and now a huge embarrassment for Obama and Deep State.

Two years after DK left congress, journalists played for him his own taped conversations which were illegally obtained under the Obama administration intelligence related to the pending attack on Libya to take out Gaddafi. Just unbelievable!

Where are your calls to hold Obama accountable? Where is your feigned outrage about "irreparable damage to the office of the President if Obama is not held accountable?"

Obviously Obama was not the one tapping wires and listening to conversations at Trump Tower during the presidential campaign. But he and his people knew! Someone directed them to eavesdrop. That's why he signed that executive order 17 days before leaving office essentially declassifying illegal recordings. That's why he twice applied to FISA court for Trump and Company.

Obviously no proof is available because all this covert political action is protected.

President Trump is in charge of the most powerful intelligence agency on this planet. If there is evidence of Obama tapping his lines then he has access to it. If he doesn't have evidence he should never have said anything. You don't voice your suspicions when you are president. If it is absolutely necessary to put something out there you leak it through surrogates.

But if you, as President of the US, are going to accuse the President of the US of committing a felony, then yes, I am serious, you must be accountable.

Telling the US citizens that this is the case while at the same time pretending that you have no evidence that this is the case is reprehensible, it is childish, and it is an embarrassment to the US. What this does is destroy the credibility of the US president.

I am disgusted with the immature and irresponsible way in which these accusations have been made. It should have been done with the release of an investigation that was conducted at the orders of the president and that issued a report with the same conclusion. Tweeting about this when it is only hearsay, that is utterly shameful for a President. Giving everyone the stiff arm when they ask for the evidence, dancing around this, practicing all manner of deceit instead of answering requests for evidence honestly is shameful.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

President Trump is in charge of the most powerful intelligence agency on this planet.

This is quite naive.

JFK took on the intelligence community. How did it go for him?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is quite naive.

JFK took on the intelligence community. How did it go for him?

That's right, ZNP. Don't you realize we have one among us right here on Alt Views who KNOWS what is going on inside the DEEEP STATE? He can't tell us HOW he KNOWS because of course it's TOP SECRET INFORMATION that only he is privy to. So, DROP YOUR CONCEPTS. Don't try to figure out what is going on yourself. Just pay close attention to what he says. His political opinions aren't just opinions like the rest of us peons here. He has the inside track to WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is quite naive.

JFK took on the intelligence community. How did it go for him?

All the more reason not to make accusations that you can't confirm and prosecute. Who is really naive when you commit a high crime (slander and libel) that could lead to your being impeached.

Let's suppose for the sake of the argument that Obama did wire tap Trump, yet Trump is completely unable to prove it. This could result in Trump being impeached, adding insult to injury.

Now let's look closer at this idea that Trump was wire tapped but is unable to prove it. What would be the purpose of wire tapping Trump's campaign if you are not going to share that information with the DNC and Clinton to help their campaign. All of their emails have been hacked and leaked. Surely the tell tale evidence would be in those emails as they communicate with each other the information. Therefore all Trump needs to do is hire a few graduate students to go through the emails looking for evidence that they had advance knowledge of his campaigns inner discussions. Who is really being naive?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

That's right, ZNP. Don't you realize we have one among us right here on Alt Views who KNOWS what is going on inside the DEEEP STATE? He can't tell us HOW he KNOWS because of course it's TOP SECRET INFORMATION that only he is privy to. So, DROP YOUR CONCEPTS. Don't try to figure out what is going on yourself. Just pay close attention to what he says. His political opinions aren't just opinions like the rest of us peons here. He has the inside track to WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON.

Zeek I have bad news for you, it looks like your account has been hacked by a 12 year old girl.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Zeek I have bad news for you, it looks like your account has been hacked by a 12 year old girl.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now let's look closer at this idea that Trump was wire tapped but is unable to prove it.

There's a huge difference between knowing a crime has been committed, and being able to prove it, (Remember O.J.?) especially when the perps are protected by both political and intelligence operatives who's very profession is dissembling information. Thinking about your comments about AE911, I can't believe you are so simplistic here. No President will ever come close to being impeached for saying what more than half the country already believes, and that all the facts are pointing towards.

Did you see Hannity's March 8, 2017 interview with Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer, a retired intelligence officer, and Bill Binney, a former NSA officer? Shaffer was privately told, apparently by former colleagues, that it was US officials which hacked the DNC. Our intelligence community has also long had the technical ability to leave Russian "fingerprints" on these cyber crimes. Classical frame up.

Any idea how powerful these guys are? Do you understand "false flags?" We already have members of Congress, both Democrat (Senator Jeanne Shaheen) and Republican (i.e. Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham) claiming what Russia did (actually done by US operatives framing Russia) was an act of war.

.................................................. ........................

Here's another source that shows how intel really works in the 21st century.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Zeek I have bad news for you, it looks like your account has been hacked by a 12 year old girl.

Interesting. Should I now think more highly of zeek than I ought to think?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Zeek I have bad news for you, it looks like your account has been hacked by a 12 year old girl.

Perhaps zeek only wants it to appear like his account was hacked by a 12 year old Russian girl, when actually his own artificial cyber intelligence directed the hack. One can only wonder.

[zeek]

In hell nobody laughs at themself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

In hell nobody laughs at themself.

I thought you disproved hell for lack of scientific evidence.

Isn't hell contrary to your progressive liberal value system?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Now let's look closer at this idea that Trump was wire tapped but is unable to prove it.

Are you familiar with what happened to Cheryl Atkinson the CBS reporter who did a story on whistleblowers during the first Obama administration?

She discovered hackers with government IP addresses turning her computer on and off during the night, doing computer searches on both her work and personal computers, uploading, downloading, and her deleting her files. Eventually she had the DOJ (Department of Justice, under Eric Holder) Inspector General’s office sent investigators to look at her computers. Their "official" investigation concluded that her "backspace key was stuck." Yup, that will turn your computer on and off in the middle of the night every time.

For Trump to say that Obama wire-tapped Trump's communications, is like saying Putin invaded Ukraine. Did Putin really enter Ukraine? No, of course not, his people did.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you familiar with what happened to Cheryl Atkinson the CBS reporter who did a story on whistleblowers during the first Obama administration?

She discovered hackers with government IP addresses turning her computer on and off during the night, doing computer searches on both her work and personal computers, uploading, downloading, and her deleting her files. Eventually she had the DOJ (Department of Justice, under Eric Holder) Inspector General’s office sent investigators to look at her computers. Their "official" investigation concluded that her "backspace key was stuck." Yup, that will turn your computer on and off in the middle of the night every time.

For Trump to say that Obama wire-tapped Trump's communications, is like saying Putin invaded Ukraine. Did Putin really enter Ukraine? No, of course not, his people did.

If Trump is going to make this accusation it is pointless unless he is going to prove it. Now as President of the US with the ability to get the FBI, NSA, CIA etc to assist you in an investigation along with the resources that RNC and a billionaire have should be enough to prove your contention.

Making this accusation without proof is a crime (slander, libel) that could lead to impeachment. If Nixon can be forced to resign over watergate then falsely accusing someone of Watergate like crimes should also rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.

As I have already said, if a crime was committed it would have been used to assist Clinton in her campaign. Since all of those emails have been leaked they should be able to provide evidence of the Democrats getting inside information on the Trump campaign.

I have been carefully following this new administration from day 1 and I have seen much more evidence presented indicative of collusion between the Russians and Trump's campaign than I have seen concerning Obama wire tapping Trump. I also consider it ridiculous to think that Obama would violate so many laws in doing a "watergate" scandal without using the information to assist Clinton's campaign. If He did assist Clinton I think the smoking gun would have to be there in the emails. On the other hand if it turns out that Trump's campaign is in fact found to have colluded with the Russians I also want Trump to be charged with obstruction of justice with this baseless claim put forth as a smokescreen and distraction.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Making this accusation without proof is a crime (slander, libel) that could lead to impeachment.

Are you serious?

Then every politician and journalist needs to be locked up!

Just for starters.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have been carefully following this new administration from day 1 and I have seen much more evidence presented indicative of collusion between the Russians and Trump's campaign than I have seen concerning Obama wire tapping Trump.

So have I, and I have arrived at the opposite conclusion.

It just all depends where you get your news.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you serious?

Then every politician and journalist needs to be locked up!

Just for starters.


So have I, and I have arrived at the opposite conclusion.

It just all depends where you get your news.

Yes.

Do you remember when the 60 minutes interview with the Tobacco executive aired? Big Tobacco tried to smear him with a 500 pages of lies, misinformation, distortion, etc. Real journalists tracked down every source, verified every accusation and concluded that it was a smear campaign. Big Tobacco was trying to discredit this key witness before his testimony could be heard, instead they got caught in their lies, and I assume you know the rest.

Liars must be held accountable for every word. I am completely disgusted with Trump, Conway, Spicer and the rest of them trying to walk back what they said. Trump's words were very clear, an illegal surveillance (a la Watergate) at the order of Obama on Trump tower. Trying to spin what was said into anything else is a lie. For a president to do this is not only disgraceful but irresponsible and unbefitting the post. To make this claim and then not support it with evidence is childish and despicable.

The Wall Street Journal called the attack on Wigand as the "lowest form of smear campaign". This is what I see from Trump and his minions. I am not listening to a 3rd party interpret the quotes for me, I can hear it from their own mouths.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes.

Do you remember when the 60 minutes interview with the Tobacco executive aired? Big Tobacco tried to smear him with a 500 pages of lies, misinformation, distortion, etc. Real journalists tracked down every source, verified every accusation and concluded that it was a smear campaign. Big Tobacco was trying to discredit this key witness before his testimony could be heard, instead they got caught in their lies, and I assume you know the rest.

Liars must be held accountable for every word. I am completely disgusted with Trump, Conway, Spicer and the rest of them trying to walk back what they said. Trump's words were very clear, an illegal surveillance (a la Watergate) at the order of Obama on Trump tower. Trying to spin what was said into anything else is a lie. For a president to do this is not only disgraceful but irresponsible and unbefitting the post. To make this claim and then not support it with evidence is childish and despicable.

The Wall Street Journal called the attack on Wygand as the "lowest form of smear campaign". This is what I see from Trump and his minions. I am not listening to a 3rd party interpret the quotes for me, I can hear it from their own mouths.

Your example does not fit here. Wygand was an individual. Obama has an administration with millions of employees and contractors.

Can you prove that no one in the Obama administration tapped Trump's phones? Of course not, because we now know, via Snowden, that not just Trump's lines were tapped but yours and mine too! Not just metadata, but the whole conversation, sitting in cyber space ready to be mined for evil.

We know it, but can never prove it. But I have already provided plenty of evidence to prove my point. Unfortunately, you don't agree, but that's OK.

To be honest, I did not like Trump initially, and did not vote for him in the primary. To me he was the rude and crude school yard bully. The same goes for many of my friends and family. But the more the media hates on him, spewing their daily bias, spinning everything, the more I like the guy, and the more I like his decisions and his selection of people around him.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought you disproved hell for lack of scientific evidence.

No, I think the lack of evidence falls on the Bible. It, not science, invented hell. Yet the Bible is so confusing on the matter that it's hard to draw indisputable conclusions about it. Maybe we need to discuss it on a different thread.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn't hell contrary to your progressive liberal value system?

Now that's an interesting perspective. Which apparently means, liberals don't believe in hell but conservatives do. Why?

Is it so they can say, "Liberals go to hell?"

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought you disproved hell for lack of scientific evidence.

Hell is an evocative symbol.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Isn't hell contrary to your progressive liberal value system?

Eternal punishment does seem kind of pointless now that you mention it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

hackers with government IP addresses turning her computer on and off during the night, doing computer searches on both her work and personal computers, uploading, downloading, and her deleting her files.

Microsoft does this day and night. World round. Face it, everyone is listening. Want to say something to The Donald, say it here. He's reading it right now. And if it's good he'll maybe twitter-twat about it (he admits to liking twats and grabbing them). Just a ready-made Candidate for evangelical Christians. What would Jesus think?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Microsoft does this day and night. World round. Face it, everyone is listening. Want to say something to The Donald, say it here. He's reading it right now. And if it's good he'll maybe twitter-twat about it (he admits to liking twats and grabbing them). Just a ready-made Candidate for evangelical Christians. What would Jesus think?

I thought it was you turning my computer on at night.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It just all depends where you get your news.

You mean from anywhere but Fox, right? Well maybe Breitbart too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

and the more I like his decisions and his selection of people around him.

Do you really like Bannon?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Do you really like Bannon?

I don't know him.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Microsoft does this day and night. World round. Face it, everyone is listening. Want to say something to The Donald, say it here. He's reading it right now. And if it's good he'll maybe twitter-twat about it (he admits to liking twats and grabbing them). Just a ready-made Candidate for evangelical Christians. What would Jesus think?

Think you are talking about Bill Clinton and JFK.

And, btw, your disdain for Christians is getting the best of you.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you familiar with what happened to Cheryl Atkinson the CBS reporter who did a story on whistleblowers during the first Obama administration?

She discovered hackers with government IP addresses turning her computer on and off during the night, doing computer searches on both her work and personal computers, uploading, downloading, and her deleting her files. Eventually she had the DOJ (Department of Justice, under Eric Holder) Inspector General’s office sent investigators to look at her computers. Their "official" investigation concluded that her "backspace key was stuck." Yup, that will turn your computer on and off in the middle of the night every time.

For Trump to say that Obama wire-tapped Trump's communications, is like saying Putin invaded Ukraine. Did Putin really enter Ukraine? No, of course not, his people did.

Less than two days after Trump gave his well-received speech to Congress, the 24 hour news cycle was stolen by more leaks about his surrogates meeting with Russians. Breitbart came out with the Obama wire-tap story and he jumped on it to change the subject. Trump is very conscious of what's in the news cycle and managing it helped him win the campaign. He used this trick many times. Manipulating the media is his forte.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Less than two days after Trump gave his well-received speech to Congress, the 24 hour news cycle was stolen by more leaks about his surrogates meeting with Russians. Breitbart came out with the Obama wire-tap story and he jumped on it to change the subject. Trump is very conscious of what's in the news cycle and managing it helped him win the campaign. He used this trick many times. Manipulating the media is his forte.

All politicians manipulate the media. Obama, however, slept with them.

But what's that got to do with obama's people hacking reporters' computers?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your example does not fit here. Wygand was an individual. Obama has an administration with millions of employees and contractors.

This is the weak link in the theory. The CIA knows that they cannot keep a secret unless they "tie up loose ends", a euphemism for killing everyone who might know something. The deaths of so many key witnesses in the JFK assassination is the strongest piece of evidence that it was a conspiracy carried out by the CIA. The Mafia also has tried and failed to keep secrets. How is it that some low level tech guy who would know the truth and could sell it for $1 million keeps quiet? I can understand Obama and Clinton keeping quiet, but since they didn't tap the phones themselves there are others who know the truth. In the tobacco case the man who blew the whistle did so at great personal risk and financial loss. He risked going to prison, his kids ending up on welfare without health care when they were asthmatic and could die. In contrast a government employee who knows that Obama broke the law risks absolutely nothing, no way Trump allows them to be fired if they come forward, and they will score a very big payday. Doesn't get better than that, you get paid a million dollars for being a hero who protects democracy.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can you prove that no one in the Obama administration tapped Trump's phones? Of course not, because we now know, via Snowden, that not just Trump's lines were tapped but yours and mine too! Not just metadata, but the whole conversation, sitting in cyber space ready to be mined for evil.

Again, you ignore my point about the DNC hacked emails. Who cares that the phones have been tapped, recorded and stored at NSA if no one has listened in? If they did listen in and yet did not forward any information gleaned to the Clinton campaign, again so what? Trump likened this to Watergate. Therefore all you need to prove that something did take place is the DNC emails during the Clinton campaign. These will prove they knew something from inside the Trump campaign. That would be the smoking gun. So yes, since those emails have all been hacked and leaked, Trump could easily prove his claim if it were true. Not only so but he has had 4 months. I imagine that those emails have already been poured over and dissected under a microscope by the RNC and the Trump campaign. Since he still has not given any evidence I have to assume there was not any evidence in those emails.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All politicians manipulate the media. Obama, however, slept with them.

But what's that got to do with obama's people hacking reporters' computers?

I'm talking about Trump's tweet:

"How low has President Obama gone to tapp my phones during the very sacred election process. This is Nixon/Watergate. Bad (or sick) guy! 7:02 AM - 4 Mar 2017.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I'm talking about Trump's tweet:

The thing that bothers me the most about that tweet is Trump's use of the word "sacred". I feel he has no business handling things that are "sacred" and the idea that his campaign was "sacred" is just a slap in the face to all things that truly are sacred.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The thing that bothers me the most about that tweet is Trump's use of the word "sacred". I feel he has no business handling things that are "sacred" and the idea that his campaign was "sacred" is just a slap in the face to all things that truly are sacred.

Nit-pickin' my friend?

The time is coming when democratic elections will be a sacred relic from the past. Look at Israel. The only democracy in the region, yet the UN is so biased against them. Unelected mooslim dictators slaughter millions and don't get the condemnations Israel gets for building houses.

I think Trump is right to refer to them as "sacred," not in a spiritual sense, but in a human one -- something revered as untouchable because of its great value to civilization. That's why rampant voter fraud by the Democratic party is so troubling. When I heard that one major city had 100% voter turnout, and 100% Democratic vote -- that by definition is voter fraud. It's no wonder that they see legitimate voter ID's as prohibitive, racist, xenophobic, etc.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't know him.

You don't know any of those you claim to like that Trump has gathered around him ... yet said you like them. And of course you know Bannon ; the founder of Breitbart ... and notorious white nationalist, and prolly supremacist ; the KKK love him. He's Trump's brain. These are the types Trump has gathered, and you said you like them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is the weak link in the theory. The CIA knows that they cannot keep a secret unless they "tie up loose ends", a euphemism for killing everyone who might know something. The deaths of so many key witnesses in the JFK assassination is the strongest piece of evidence that it was a conspiracy carried out by the CIA. The Mafia also has tried and failed to keep secrets. How is it that some low level tech guy who would know the truth and could sell it for $1 million keeps quiet? I can understand Obama and Clinton keeping quiet, but since they didn't tap the phones themselves there are others who know the truth. In the tobacco case the man who blew the whistle did so at great personal risk and financial loss. He risked going to prison, his kids ending up on welfare without health care when they were asthmatic and could die. In contrast a government employee who knows that Obama broke the law risks absolutely nothing, no way Trump allows them to be fired if they come forward, and they will score a very big payday. Doesn't get better than that, you get paid a million dollars for being a hero who protects democracy.

Snowden and Assange have blown the whistle and they are at great risk. No one is calling them heroes, except the common man. Both are now on the run, knowing each day will be their last. Million dollars means nothing to them.

No one in the intelligentcia simply "comes forward" to talk.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You don't know any of those you claim to like that Trump has gathered around him ... yet said you like them. And of course you know Bannon ; the founder of Breitbart ... and notorious white nationalist, and prolly supremacist ; the KKK love him. He's Trump's brain. These are the types Trump has gathered, and you said you like them.

Your epithets are simply nasty baseless names. Is he not innocent until proven guilty?

I prefer Bannon to Valerie Jarrett, the brains of the last prez. Let's talk about her. For starters: the father, maternal grandfather, and father-in-law of President Barack Obama's closest adviser, Valerie Jarrett, "were hardcore Communists under investigation by the U.S. government."

She is also Iranian. Do you see the connections to Obama's treaty with Iran?

Go read about her.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I'm talking about Trump's tweet:

Obama was one sick and bad guy!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Think you are talking about Bill Clinton and JFK.

Righto. But did more than 80% of evangelical's support them? Did Jerry Falwell and Billy Graham support them. like their Jr.'s?

Originally Posted by Ohio

And, btw, your disdain for Christians is getting the best of you.

Not as much as they got the best of me. You're tougher than me, or more stubborn. We both grew up in Christian organizations, and then went thru the local church, that failed us. That got to me, but not you. You're tougher or more stubborn, or maybe refuse to see how Christianity has failed you.

Or maybe I'm still infused with Witness Lee's disdain for Christianity (did you not get that memo?):

If so, let me remind you of how Christianity has failed you. He didn't call the Southern Baptist's demonic:

"Judaism is Satanic Catholicism is demonic and Christianity is christless." - Witness Lee

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Not as much as they got the best of me. You're tougher than me, or more stubborn. We both grew up in Christian organizations, and then went thru the local church, that failed us. That got to me, but not you. You're tougher or more stubborn, or maybe refuse to see how Christianity has failed you.

You are right, Christianity has "somewhat" failed me, but I must be fair to say that my childhood Parochial education was vastly superior to the alternative, and I have learned many precious truths in Christianity concerning my Savior. I have met many, many precious children of God over the years, one of which brought me to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, Who loves me and has never done me any wrong.

No matter how bad you think things were for you, someone else was far worse off. No matter how bad the Christian system around you had become, within that rotten shell was the loving Savior Jesus, Who loves you, and gave His life for your sins.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obama was one sick and bad guy!

...In your skewed opinion.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Snowden and Assange have blown the whistle and they are at great risk. No one is calling them heroes, except the common man. Both are now on the run, knowing each day will be their last. Million dollars means nothing to them.

No one in the intelligentcia simply "comes forward" to talk.

This doesn't make sense. The FBI director clearly undermined Clinton's campaign. Surely there are some in the Intelligence community that do not support Obama. Also, Obama is no longer in power.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are right, Christianity has "somewhat" failed me, but I must be fair to say that my childhood Parochial education was vastly superior to the alternative, and I have learned many precious truths in Christianity concerning my Savior. I have met many, many precious children of God over the years, one of which brought me to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, Who loves me and has never done me any wrong.

No matter how bad you think things were for you, someone else was far worse off. No matter how bad the Christian system around you had become, within that rotten shell was the loving Savior Jesus, Who loves you, and gave His life for your sins.

Well amen to all of that. No matter what you think I think of Christianity, I do appreciate some of those I met there still today. In fact, most of my friends today are from the LC. And look at me now. If I didn't have the Bible and Christianity to find fault with, what would I do all day? I guess I have a love/hate relationship to them. I'm all kinds of screwed up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well amen to all of that. No matter what you think I think of Christianity, I do appreciate some of those I met there still today. In fact, most of my friends today are from the LC. And look at me now. If I didn't have the Bible and Christianity to find fault with, what would I do all day? I guess I have a love/hate relationship to them. I'm all kinds of screwed up.

It is tremendously valuable to us personally, emotionally, and psychologically (forget spiritually for now) to seek out and hold on to all the good things and people we have crossed paths with in our lives. One great counselor who helped me called this "treasure hunting." He did say that this was often hard to do, but the personal benefits, according to his research, always paid off.

For example, with me personally, I will always be thankful that the LC's helped me to speak publicly. I was a self-conscious kid with serious stage-fright when I first stood up in a meeting. But I was encouraged by others, and given lots of opportunity in small churches to practice. I will always treasure those times I was able to speak for the Lord publicly.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This doesn't make sense. The FBI director clearly undermined Clinton's campaign. Surely there are some in the Intelligence community that do not support Obama. Also, Obama is no longer in power.

Undermined her campaign? By acquitting Hillary before the DNC, he paved the road to victory for her. She should have been indicted, but today she walks the streets free with all the money she stole.

Meet your new mayor!

[zeek]

To the degree that Trump and his cabinet succeed enacting his agenda, the US will have a government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, for the billionaires.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

To the degree that Trump and his cabinet succeed enacting his agenda, the US will have a government of the billionaires, by the billionaires, for the billionaires.

Spoken like a true socialist, one who thinks successful people are the source of all evil.

Far better to have successful men and women, in the peak of their career, already quite accomplished in industry, who desire to give back to their country, than it is to have power hungry community organizers, those who never had a job, who hate what America stands for, to use their positions to abuse their power, gather billions for themselves, attempt to destroy the character of our republic, and the constitution it was build on.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All politicians manipulate the media. Obama, however, slept with them.

But what's that got to do with obama's people hacking reporters' computers?

Oh boy. No wonder Obama was so lousy. He spent all his time hacking and tapping. I hear he can even hack and make it look like the Russians did it. He weren't no good at presidenting, but he sure could hack up a storm. Listen to Fox. They aren't fake news. haha

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh boy. No wonder Obama was so lousy. He spent all his time hacking and tapping. I hear he can even hack and make it look like the Russians did it. He weren't no good at presidenting, but he sure could hack up a storm. Listen to Fox. They aren't fake news. haha

Are you serious?

Did you read any of the stories?

You remind me of that LSM brother who preferred to be an ostrich with his head in the sand.

Time for you to leave the LC my friend!

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Spoken like a true socialist, one who thinks successful people are the source of all evil.

Far better to have successful men and women, in the peak of their career, already quite accomplished in industry, who desire to give back to their country, than it is to have power hungry community organizers, those who never had a job, who hate what America stands for, to use their positions to abuse their power, gather billions for themselves, attempt to destroy the character of our republic, and the constitution it was build on.

...you missed the "for the billionaires" part. Are you a billionaire?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

...you missed the "for the billionaires" part. Are you a billionaire?

I did notice how all those Hollywood billionaires love Trump.

Not to mention how well Obama did for Wall St.

At the expense of Main St. of course.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Are you serious?

Did you read any of the stories?

You remind me of that LSM brother who preferred to be an ostrich with his head in the sand.

Time for you to leave the LC my friend!

I'm trying. How 'bout you?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I did notice how all those Hollywood billionaires love Trump.

Not to mention how well Obama did for Wall St.

At the expense of Main St. of course.

It was Wall St. that Broke Main St. Obama is gone, but not Wall St. In fact Wall St. is in the Trump admin. But keep blaming Obama, while letting Wall St. off the hook. So they can do it all again. They're blowing the bubble right now. But not to worry. Main St. can bail them out again.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

It was Wall St. that Broke Main St. Obama is gone, but not Wall St. In fact Wall St. is in the Trump admin. But keep blaming Obama, while letting Wall St. off the hook. So they can do it all again. They're blowing the bubble right now. But not to worry. Main St. can bail them out again.

The world is a train running down train tracks that lead to armageddon. Capitalism is based on an un sustainable increase of 3% interest per year. China is racing along at a higher rate than that just to keep their head above water while their citizens choke to death on the pollution. Climate change is already resulting in tens of millions of refugees and is poised to increase exponentially. We have nuclear powers being run by complete psychos (N Korea as the prime example). Russia, the odd man out, is run by a ruthless KGB agent who has figured out how to derail the political process for his own delight. China sees itself as the superpower in Asia, a viewpoint that S Korea, Japan and the US don't share. US debt has become very limiting in our capability as a country. Naive or criminal negligence on the part of our elected officials has gutted our manufacturing which has contributed to our deficit. Undo oil influence has pushed us into a trillion dollar war in the Middle East, money that would have been far better spent on transitioning our energy supply to something sustainable. Ever since 2015 Wall Street has again been using CDO's, the same kind of highly leveraged bet that caused the first housing crisis.

Let's be realistic, neither Trump nor Clinton are the messiah. Neither one is responsible for the situation we are in and neither one is capable of getting us out of this situation. If you are looking for a savior His name is Jesus.

[zeek]

The Senate Intelligence Committee says they see no indication that President Obama ordered wiretapping or surveillance of Trump Tower. Trump says he learned Obama tapped his phones from the New York Times. Why is Trump standing by his slanderous allegation?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The world is a train running down train tracks that lead to armageddon. Capitalism is based on an un sustainable increase of 3% interest per year. China is racing along at a higher rate than that just to keep their head above water while their citizens choke to death on the pollution. Climate change is already resulting in tens of millions of refugees and is poised to increase exponentially. We have nuclear powers being run by complete psychos (N Korea as the prime example). Russia, the odd man out, is run by a ruthless KGB agent who has figured out how to derail the political process for his own delight. China sees itself as the superpower in Asia, a viewpoint that S Korea, Japan and the US don't share. US debt has become very limiting in our capability as a country. Naive or criminal negligence on the part of our elected officials has gutted our manufacturing which has contributed to our deficit. Undo oil influence has pushed us into a trillion dollar war in the Middle East, money that would have been far better spent on transitioning our energy supply to something sustainable. Ever since 2015 Wall Street has again been using CDO's, the same kind of highly leveraged bet that caused the first housing crisis.

Let's be realistic, neither Trump nor Clinton are the messiah. Neither one is responsible for the situation we are in and neither one is capable of getting us out of this situation. If you are looking for a savior His name is Jesus.

Good post bro. But Trump is not Jesus. He's Cyrus the great. I hear from prophecy buffs that he's moving the embassy to Jerusalem, and building the temple where no stone is on another. Then, according to 2 Thess, he will sit himself up in the temple as God, and then we'll all be raptured. Amen. Go Trump go. He's not going to drain the swamp. He'll bring the scorching of the whole earth, and the burning of all those nasty people out there.

They don't care if everybody burns, as long as they get their Jesus. That's why evangelicals went for Trump. That and the fact that he'll ban all Muslims. The courts are interfering with Armageddon.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good post bro. But Trump is not Jesus. He's Cyrus the great. I hear from prophecy buffs that he's moving the embassy to Jerusalem, and building the temple where no stone is on another. Then, according to 2 Thess, he will sit himself up in the temple as God, and then we'll all be raptured. Amen. Go Trump go. He's not going to drain the swamp. He'll bring the scorching of the whole earth, and the burning of all those nasty people out there.

They don't care if everybody burns, as long as they get their Jesus. That's why evangelicals went for Trump. That and the fact that he'll ban all Muslims. The courts are interfering with Armageddon.

Man what are you smoking?

Most working class Christians I know just wanted a Prez that would protect their jobs and their families, and stop giving freebies to illegal aliens.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Man what are you smoking?

I knew you'd love it. I wrote it just for you.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Most working class Christians I know just wanted a Prez that would protect their jobs and their families, and stop giving freebies to illegal aliens.

You can't protect working class jobs. Self driving cars will eliminate taxi and commercial drivers (over the next 10 years).

3d printing will eliminate much of the manufacturing. They even recently used a 3d printer to make a house in less than a week. Most people are opting for ordering online rather than going to the mall, as a result clerks and cashiers will be put out of business.

Some Restaurants are experimenting with taking your order via a smartphone app, eliminating the waitress.

Soon you will log online, order what you want, it will be pulled from the shelf with a robot or printed out with a 3d printer, packed in a box and shipped by a robot, driven to your town with a self driving vehicle and flown to your house via a drone.

If you wanted to "protect jobs" you should have voted for the candidate that was offering free college tuition.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Man what are you smoking?

Most working class Christians I know just wanted a Prez that would protect their jobs and their families, and stop giving freebies to illegal aliens.

Ryan's health care plan punishes the very people Trump vowed to help. It would raise premiums by as much as 25 percent on people between 50 and 64, one core of the Trump voter base. It would hurt working-class voters whose incomes put them just above the Medicaid threshold.

The Trump budget contradicts the populism he campaigned on. It eliminates or cuts organizations like the Appalachian Regional Commission and the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative that are important to people from Tennessee and West Virginia up through Ohio and Michigan. It cuts job-training and road-building programs. It does almost nothing to help expand opportunity for the working class and almost everything to serve defense contractors and the national security state.

Scapegoating immigrants was Trump's fascist appeal to the baser instincts of the working class in order to get himself elected. He will continue to blame them and the liberals for the woes of working class folks. That should appeal to you very much.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Ryan's health care plan punishes the very people Trump vowed to help.

You aren't supposed to take him literally.

Originally Posted by zeek

It would raise premiums by as much as 25 percent on people between 50 and 64, one core of the Trump voter base. It would hurt working-class voters whose incomes put them just above the Medicaid threshold.

The Trump budget contradicts the populism he campaigned on.

The populism he campaigned on was very frank about taking advantage of people. Thousands of lawsuits, grabbing women by their privates, cheering on Russian hackers. Nothing that he is doing now contradicts what was plain for all to see about him.

Originally Posted by zeek

It eliminates or cuts organizations like the Appalachian Regional Commission and the Great Lakes Restoration Initiative that are important to people from Tennessee and West Virginia up through Ohio and Michigan. It cuts job-training and road-building programs. It does almost nothing to help expand opportunity for the working class and almost everything to serve defense contractors and the national security state.

That is ridiculous. He has already gotten a very big deal from the Chinese who have approved his using his name as a brand. His daughters business is soaring. There have been other deals approved as well. In fact he has expanded opportunities for the Trump brand worldwide.

Originally Posted by zeek

Scapegoating immigrants was Trump's fascist appeal to the baser instincts of the working class in order to get himself elected. He will continue to blame them and the liberals for the woes of working class folks. That should appeal to you very much.

Look, it is going to get very ugly, just look at what has happened to Britain since their Brexit. Therefore he is going to have to blame someone, news media and immigrants and don't forget teachers. That is the best way to privatize education and turn all those inner city kids into a profit making machine.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You aren't supposed to take him literally.
The populism he campaigned on was very frank about taking advantage of people. Thousands of lawsuits, grabbing women by their privates, cheering on Russian hackers. Nothing that he is doing now contradicts what was plain for all to see about him.
That is ridiculous. He has already gotten a very big deal from the Chinese who have approved his using his name as a brand. His daughters business is soaring. There have been other deals approved as well. In fact he has expanded opportunities for the Trump brand worldwide.
Look, it is going to get very ugly, just look at what has happened to Britain since their Brexit. Therefore he is going to have to blame someone, news media and immigrants and don't forget teachers. That is the best way to privatize education and turn all those inner city kids into a profit making machine.

We agree about Trump.

[awareness]

Trump supporters put your blinders on when reading the last three posts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump supporters put your blinders on when reading the last three posts.

Please say something accurate and intelligent so I can respond to it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Please say something accurate and intelligent so I can respond to it.

I'm doing my darnedest ... to hold down the normal emotional & spiritual strain, and Christian cognitive dissonance, caused by involvement with politics.

After all, this is the Politics and the Church thread. Politics is not allowed to interfere in religious matters, so our constitution dictates. But really, should the church interlope into politics? Is that what Jesus would advise his church to do? Methinks politics is too dirty for Jesus.

Is this intelligent enough for you? or is it not accurate enough to warrant a response?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You can't protect working class jobs. Self driving cars will eliminate taxi and commercial drivers (over the next 10 years).

3d printing will eliminate much of the manufacturing. They even recently used a 3d printer to make a house in less than a week. Most people are opting for ordering online rather than going to the mall, as a result clerks and cashiers will be put out of business.

Some Restaurants are experimenting with taking your order via a smartphone app, eliminating the waitress.

Soon you will log online, order what you want, it will be pulled from the shelf with a robot or printed out with a 3d printer, packed in a box and shipped by a robot, driven to your town with a self driving vehicle and flown to your house via a drone.

If you wanted to "protect jobs" you should have voted for the candidate that was offering free college tuition.

That's right, it's not the Chinese to be blamed for taking American jobs - it's Silicon Valley!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's right, it's not the Chinese to be blamed for taking American jobs - it's Silicon Valley!

Well I don't know about that. You can't blame corporations for cutting costs. They hold strictly to the bottom line. Americans can't work for 3 dollars a day, or even an hour.

And even before the WWW, or Silicon Valley, computers said to be made in America, were put together with Chinese parts inside.

Cheap labor is cheap labor. But yes, I guess you can say Apple is part of Silicon Valley.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm doing my darnedest ... to hold down the normal emotional & spiritual strain, and Christian cognitive dissonance, caused by involvement with politics.

After all, this is the Politics and the Church thread. Politics is not allowed to interfere in religious matters, so our constitution dictates. But really, should the church interlope into politics? Is that what Jesus would advise his church to do? Methinks politics is too dirty for Jesus.

Is this intelligent enough for you? or is it not accurate enough to warrant a response?

That is absurd. The Lord told us not to leave the world, but rather to be in the world but not of the world. Therefore you could definitely be fully involved in politics, but not "dirty" politics.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I don't know about that. You can't blame corporations for cutting costs. They hold strictly to the bottom line. Americans can't work for 3 dollars a day, or even an hour.

And even before the WWW, or Silicon Valley, computers said to be made in America, were put together with Chinese parts inside.

Cheap labor is cheap labor. But yes, I guess you can say Apple is part of Silicon Valley.

Why would anyone who has a choice want to be involved in "cheap labor". I get it as an opportunity for poor and undeveloped nations to climb their way out of poverty, but if we are replacing menial labor with skilled labor then that is not only a good thing but the way of progress.

The Washing machine, dishwasher, refrigerator, and stove have all made the job of "homemaking" much simpler, allowing women to work in the workforce. Yes, these appliances did "take away jobs from women" but open your eyes, that opened the door for better jobs.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I don't know about that. You can't blame corporations for cutting costs. They hold strictly to the bottom line. Americans can't work for 3 dollars a day, or even an hour.

And even before the WWW, or Silicon Valley, computers said to be made in America, were put together with Chinese parts inside.

Cheap labor is cheap labor. But yes, I guess you can say Apple is part of Silicon Valley.

The big picture is this. The American worker is not really competing against the Chinese worker doing the same job for $2 an hour. They are competing against the (silicon valley) technology which the Chinese worker is producing (for the Americans), which will replace them and 50 of their co-workers.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why would anyone who has a choice want to be involved in "cheap labor". I get it as an opportunity for poor and undeveloped nations to climb their way out of poverty, but if we are replacing menial labor with skilled labor then that is not only a good thing but the way of progress.

The Washing machine, dishwasher, refrigerator, and stove have all made the job of "homemaking" much simpler, allowing women to work in the workforce. Yes, these appliances did "take away jobs from women" but open your eyes, that opened the door for better jobs.

Before the washing machine etc, women did not have to work in the workforce. A one person income was sufficient. I think some women would prefer to stay at home and raise children then be forced to work for a living, in any job.

Yes the jobs that machines replace can open the door for better jobs however with every machine comes a net loss in the number of jobs available. It is not a one machine to one person ratio. Machines can do it much faster and better.

Also, some might argue that replacing a physical job with a sitting behind a desk job is not a better job (if you are a physically active person, that is, and overall computer work is not good for health).

That is why companies now can run with only 10 staff whereas 20 years ago they needed 100 staff. Better jobs can result but also fewer jobs. A job which used to take 10 people to do, can be replaced by 1 machine and 1 machine supervisor/operator. So there is a net loss in the number of jobs available. At the same time, with population growth, there is more people who need jobs. So less jobs available and more people who need them means more unemployment.

It is not just machines part of this problem but also software. Better software can replace jobs that people had to do by hand. The job of the person who would transcribe interviews and notes etc has been replaced by automatic speech to text software and things like this.

Extrapolate to the future when machines will do everything and everyone will need to depend upon a minimum wage. There will be lots of people with not much to do. So governments will need to pay everyone a base salary whether they work or not, so that people can survive. They tried this idea already in some country in Europe I think.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The big picture is this. The American worker is not really competing against the Chinese worker doing the same job for $2 an hour. They are competing against the (silicon valley) technology which the Chinese worker is producing (for the Americans), which will replace them and 50 of their co-workers.

It will only hurt for awhile. Then we can live a life of leisure. We'll live off welfare, and tax the robots to pay for it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Before the washing machine etc, women did not have to work in the workforce. A one person income was sufficient. I think some women would prefer to stay at home and raise children then be forced to work for a living, in any job.

A woman who is married does not need to work in the workforce instead of raising a family. One child in day care runs about $500 a month, which means the first $750 the woman makes merely goes to pay someone else to raise her one kid, $1500 if she has two. A cell phone contract runs about $50 a month at the least, and cable TV is about $150 (two things that were not available to the pre washing machine women). So then, drop those two luxuries and the first $1,050 the woman makes each month would be eliminated if she stayed home with 1 child, $1800 if she has two. In addition if you are working in the workforce you need transportation, assume that is an extra $100 a month, you need a bigger budget for your wardrobe, another $100 a month (dry cleaning, etc) and you will probably spend more on breakfast and lunch since you don't have the time to make it (juggling a job, family and day care), another $200. All in all the first $1,500 a woman makes a month merely pays for her extra expenses if she has 1 child, $2300 if she has two. Personally, I think this is extremely conservative. I would therefore argue that a woman making less than $36,000 a year is not working to help support her family, she is doing it solely because she would rather work than be at home raising the kids. The problem is that as people make more, they also spend more on each of those items I mentioned. Look carefully at the budget, it is very possible that the woman with two kids making $51,000 a year, net after taxes is $34,000 a year, is spending much closer to $3,000 a month on her extra expenses. If so, her working is her choice, not a necessity. If you double it and say she is making $100,000 a year, then her taxes will probably be a third, leaving her with $66,000 a year. That works out to $5,500 a month. But in this case you can be sure she is paying more than $500 a month per child for child care, she has the full phone plan of $100 a month or more, and you can double her food and clothing budget as well. Also, how many women making $100,000 a year take the bus to work? Between car payments, insurance, gas and oil she has raised her transportation budget from $100 a month to $500 a month. She is probably spending $4500 a month to take care of those kids and she is probably hiring someone to clean house once a month. So then once a woman is making $100,000 a year she is probably taking home $500 a month for the family, $6,000 a year, at the most. Except, when she pushed the family into a higher tax bracket that included her husband as well. Assuming he also makes $100,000 a year he is now paying an extra $8,000 a year in taxes. Oops, still not making a dime to help support the family. A woman in a marriage with a husband that has an equally valuable job does not need to work to support the family.

The reason married women work in the workforce is because the ground has been cursed, man has to work by the sweat of his brow for his sin. When some women entered the workforce married women were afraid that their husbands would leave the frumpy housewife with two kids for the secretary, so they were afraid, shipped kids off to day care, went to work and spent their paychecks on clothes, cars and hair salon. In addition to that you have a bunch of broken families, single mothers, again a curse as a result of sin. Abortion (close to 100 million in the US since legalization) is not due to rape or incest. It is due to women who want to advance their career and feel a child at this point is inconvenient. It is the real "inconvenient truth".

Who suffers? The kids. Just as the Bible says, God will visit the sins of the fathers on the children. It is well documented that a healthy diet is much better for a developing child than a high carb junk food diet the kid is going to get with the working mother juggling family, career and day care. It is also well documented that children raised in the home by the mother are much better developed psychologically. These are obviously averages with the worst nightmare for a mother being worse than the best day care, but let's be real, the worst nightmare for daycare is pretty horrific.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

It will only hurt for awhile. Then we can live a life of leisure. We'll live off welfare, and tax the robots to pay for it.

Life is like riding a bicycle, the minute you stop pedaling you fall over.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Do you really like Bannon?

You got me thinking, so I read this article about Bannon by Bloomberg News couple years ago.

What it really explained to me was why crooked Hillary lost.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You got me thinking, so I read this article about Bannon by Bloomberg News couple years ago.

What it really explained to me was why crooked Hillary lost.

Hillary lost because a lot of people hated her, including me.

But you didn't answer my question. Do you really like Bannon?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hillary lost because a lot of people hated her, including me.

But you didn't answer my question. Do you really like Bannon?

What a weird question. And then you ask me it twice on a forum. What's up with that? So what ... I read an article about him ... I read one about Valerie Jarrett too, and I like her like a colonoscopy.

I mean you seem to have issues with me even liking the Bible.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Life is like riding a bicycle, the minute you stop pedaling you fall over.

You have to learn how to coast. Same goes for driving cars.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have to learn how to coast. Same goes for driving cars.

Just don't make a sharp turn in gravel. You might break something.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just don't make a sharp turn in gravel. You might break something.

Good advice.

[awareness]

Neil deGrasse Tyson (tweet):
"The very best way to support and feed your delusions: Surround yourself with people whose world views match yours exactly."

Sounds like the local church to me ... and a lot of other cults too ... and Trump & Co.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Neil deGrasse Tyson (tweet):
"The very best way to support and feed your delusions: Surround yourself with people whose world views match yours exactly."

Sounds like the local church to me ... and a lot of other cults too ... and Trump & Co.

Sounds like the "safe space" progressive liberal snowflakes demand.

Since I am the only conservative here, it sure doesn't apply to me.

Can't apply to Trump since the entire media is against him.

Anyways, I been thinking about giving up something for Lent. Perhaps Alt-Views would be perfect thing to give up, more difficult than sweets. See you later.

[Evangelical]

Trump is building his reputation around the world as the "Liar in Chief", particularly with his nonsense about wiretapping and Germany "owing NATO". Whatever credibility he had (if any) when coming to power, is being eroded away with every tweet.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just don't make a sharp turn in gravel. You might break something.

I came miraculously close to being killed that way.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like the "safe space" progressive liberal snowflakes demand.

Since I am the only conservative here, it sure doesn't apply to me.

Can't apply to Trump since the entire media is against him.

Anyways, I been thinking about giving up something for Lent. Perhaps Alt-Views would be perfect thing to give up, more difficult than sweets. See you later.

So I guess we aren't those that support your world view and you're running to surround yourself with those that hold your world view? Just wondering???

[awareness]

I'm sad that bro Ohio is leaving AltV's. But then I'm a mugwump, and it's hard for me to surround myself with other mugwumps that hold my world view.

But that allows me to love those that don't hold my world view, and I like to surround myself with those that don't hold my world view.

I guess I don't get it. Jesus said love your neighbor and even your enemies. But Christians, typically but not always conservative, can't love those that don't hold their world view. Why? Aren't they followers of Jesus first an foremost? I guess not.

So I repeat. Politics is too dirty for Jesus.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like the "safe space" progressive liberal snowflakes demand.

Since I am the only conservative here, it sure doesn't apply to me.

Can't apply to Trump since the entire media is against him.

Anyways, I been thinking about giving up something for Lent. Perhaps Alt-Views would be perfect thing to give up, more difficult than sweets. See you later.

But for the irony, this would be a classic sour-grapes rationalization.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm sad that bro Ohio is leaving AltV's. But then I'm a mugwump, and it's hard for me to surround myself with other mugwumps that hold my world view.

But that allows me to love those that don't hold my world view, and I like to surround myself with those that don't hold my world view.

I guess I don't get it. Jesus said love your neighbor and even your enemies. But Christians, typically but not always conservative, can't love those that don't hold their world view. Why? Aren't they followers of Jesus first an foremost? I guess not.

So I repeat. Politics is too dirty for Jesus.

So after quoting Jesus own words that show that Politics is not something Jesus would avoid, you decide to just repeat your assertion without any rebuttal or submission of evidence. Are you sure that you and Trump don't agree? You seem very similar.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So after quoting Jesus own words that show that Politics is not something Jesus would avoid, you decide to just repeat your assertion without any rebuttal or submission of evidence. Are you sure that you and Trump don't agree? You seem very similar.

Lol ... but without the overblown narcissistic ego. Me and Trump. Two peas in a pod ... haha.

I remember trying a few times to get you to come back to LCD. Now it's your turn to call bro Ohio back to AltVs.

[Evangelical]

As Ohio goes to celebrate the Feast of Tammuz, from the Catholic point of view giving up things for Lent is supposed to replicate Jesus's 40 days in the desert being tempted by Satan. So there is precedent for one staying in the "desert" of Alt. views. to be "tempted by Satan" to deny Trump, God's chosen President.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Lol ... but without the overblown narcissistic ego. Me and Trump. Two peas in a pod ... haha.

I remember trying a few times to get you to come back to LCD. Now it's your turn to call bro Ohio back to AltVs.

Maybe if his posts are not referred to as "delusions" but given the respect he has earned he would take my call.

[zeek]

On Monday, James Comey, Director of the FBI revealed that since July 2016 the Trump administration has been under investigation for ties to Russia. Why didn't he reveal that in October when he revealed that the FBI was resuming investigation of Hilary Clinton's email server?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

On Monday, James Comey, Director of the FBI revealed that since July 2016 the Trump administration has been under investigation for ties to Russia. Why didn't he reveal that in October when he revealed that the FBI was resuming investigation of Hilary Clinton's email server?

You can't reveal that, it would influence the election.

Trump has told you repeatedly the system is rigged.

Does anybody even look at this from his point of view? He was bankrupt, couldn't get a loan so he went to the only place where he could get the money to save his business, Russian loan sharks. He got in bed with them literally, and they have it on video tape. The poor guy is trapped by these Russian mobsters. He can't see them in the Whitehouse, can't talk to them on the phone, the only way to communicate is on the golf course, and after how he condemned others for doing just that. He sent Spicer out with the upside down flag to let us know and does anyone care? No, too busy making jokes and insults.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

This is why the Bible shouldn't guide our politics:

Oklahoma State Rep says rape and incest are the ‘will of God’ in abortion bill hearing
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/watc...-bill-hearing/

What does this have to do with the Bible? The problem is that so few people know the Bible that they will swallow this garbage. It is very clear to me that the Bible does not guide his politics and that is the problem.

The most despicable thing about this story is that no one stood up to refute this allegation using the Bible. Awareness is living in la la land. References to religion, culture and the Bible cannot be outlawed or forbidden. That would be censorship of the worst kind. He would respond to one idiot by turning the US into a censorship of the most draconian kind. Say goodbye to the first amendment, this is not freedom or religion, it is outlawing all references to religion. It seems Awareness is getting his inspiration from Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and Stalin. What is next, pushing people out of windows who don't comply to your censorship a la Putin? Therefore, just like refuting a trump tweet, people in politics need to know the Bible well enough to hold this guy accountable and shut him down.

[zeek]

Big Winner Trump loses again.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thoma...ed-gop-failure

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Big Winner Trump loses again.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thoma...ed-gop-failure

"We will have so much winning if I get elected that you may get bored with the winning," Trump

[Evangelical]

Spends much of his time playing golf:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7650166.html

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Spends much of his time playing golf:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7650166.html

What choice does he have? He is being investigated by the FBI for treason, how can he consult with the members of his staff, his campaign, and the Russians they have worked with? They can't use the phone, can't meet in the Whitehouse, etc. The only place they can go and expect at least a decent chance of not being taped and recorded is the golf course. Probably the only people he can trust to carry messages are family members. So the sad thing is that the S.S. Trump is not just him, he'll probably take a good number of others including family members with him.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"We will have so much winning if I get elected that you may get bored with the winning," Trump

Winning for who?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Winning for who?

I think at this point I have to agree with Trump. I do not think he has "won" on a single point, although the final judgement has yet to come down I think on numerous points we are seeing him lose, lose, lose. Which of course means that the American people are winning, democracy is winning and the free press is winning. We are winning so much it is becoming boring.

But even more stunning I am growing bored of this. At first his rants were riveting TV, now they are becoming more and more obviously the delusions of a pitiful embarrassment to both the US and his family. He is now going after Paul Ryan, is there anyone left in the Republican party he is not going after? He is clueless when it comes to consensus and coalitions. What happens when they have to vote on impeachment, will he have any friends at all? Like he said this last vote has taught us about loyalty. He has none.

So I am not enjoying this, it is like an NFL team beating up on a sub par HS team with the "star quarterback" who is nothing but a loudmouth egotistical jerk.

This loss on healthcare is truly stunning. He doesn't want to call it Trump care, or Ryancare, or Republicancare, so I guess "I don't care" is the best name for it. That was basically his response. Sure they were all elected based on this one issue, and sure the Republicans have the majority and should be able to pass something based solely on Republican votes. They are all trumpeting the fact that Obamacare is "blowing up". They are the ones in power. Yet they do not seem to care. They did this prior to the budget, how hard would it have been to negotiate with those against the health care by offering something in the budget?

But again, he is right. It is boring watching someone who is truly incompetent. What is interesting is watching a genius at work or a master of their craft. In the collective wisdom of the people they have put someone completely incompetent in power, like pouring sugar into the gas tank of the car. This is what happens when the government is overrun by lobbyists and no longer cares about the people, the best thing to do is junk the car so it doesn't run at all.

[zeek]

Yes Trump has risen to a job which is beyond his level of competence. But, can anything prevent him from having his Reichstag fire?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Yes Trump has risen to a job which is beyond his level of competence. But, can anything prevent him from having his Reichstag fire?

The FBI, the CIA, the Media, the Democrats, and of course the Republicans like McCain, Ryan, etc.

Trump does not compare very well with Hitler, the best comparison to Hitler today is Putin. Taking the Ukraine can be viewed as Hitler rolling into Austria. Coming into the fray in Syria, maybe Poland. Putin has taken a country devastated by the cold war, economic ruin, headed by a buffoon, and completely turned it around so that they have become very nationalistic and very scary. I would not want to be Eastern Europe today.

I think a better analogy for Trump is Neville Chamberlain.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The FBI, the CIA, the Media, the Democrats, and of course the Republicans like McCain, Ryan, etc.

Trump does not compare very well with Hitler, the best comparison to Hitler today is Putin. Taking the Ukraine can be viewed as Hitler rolling into Austria. Coming into the fray in Syria, maybe Poland. Putin has taken a country devastated by the cold war, economic ruin, headed by a buffoon, and completely turned it around so that they have become very nationalistic and very scary. I would not want to be Eastern Europe today.

I think a better analogy for Trump is Neville Chamberlain.

George W. Bush had his Reichstag Fire. It was called 9/11. After that, his popularity rose empowering him to curtail our civil liberties with the Patriot Act to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and to get reelected. The so-called "balance of powers" of Congress, the Judiciary, and the media that you cited didn't prevent that. A major terrorist event could have a similar effect for Trump. So, I expect to see a similar event happen for Trump. I hope I'm wrong.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

A major terrorist event could have a similar effect for Trump. So, I expect to see a similar event happen for Trump. I hope I'm wrong.

Trump needs it and has the wherewithal to create it. I hope not, but wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

George W. Bush had his Reichstag Fire. It was called 9/11. After that, his popularity rose empowering him to curtail our civil liberties with the Patriot Act to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and to get reelected. The so-called "balance of powers" of Congress, the Judiciary, and the media that you cited didn't prevent that. A major terrorist event could have a similar effect for Trump. So, I expect to see a similar event happen for Trump. I hope I'm wrong.

Are you claiming that George Bush was the perpetrator of 911? Because the way I understand the Reichstag fire is that the Nazi's were the perpetrators, blamed the communists, and used the even to then seize power in Germany. We can certainly see George Bush using 911 to blame Iraq, and then use that to seize power through the Patriot act. But are you saying that George Bush somehow manipulated the death of thousands of Americans?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump needs it and has the wherewithal to create it. I hope not, but wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

I would be very surprised if the FBI and CIA and NSA just "accepted" a terrorist attack without careful investigation. Trump seems to be exceedingly isolated without any allies. Quite a few of the major leaders in the Republican party are either attacking him outright or calling for a fair, independent investigation that "goes where it goes".

He has abysmally low popularity ratings.

The only ally he had, Paul Ryan, he is now throwing under the bus.

The conservatives have rejected him.

Who has Trump not alienated?

He has acted like someone completely incompetent. This is very different from Hitler who was underestimated. By comparison Trump is overestimated. We have a crucial superpower being led by a complete incompetent at a time when both Russia and China are unnervingly scary and making very aggressive moves. Trump is our chump, he is our Neville Chamberlain. Will North Korea, or Pakistan or ISIS be the trigger that sets off the crisis? Take your pick, the world is soon going to realize we have a power vacuum in the US and they will fill that vacuum.

[ZNPaaneah]

Wow, I was not aware that this was treasonous. Today I mixed mayo and ketchup together on a sandwich. It wasn't technically Russian dressing, but is it treasonous? I don't know? Should we ask Shawn Spicer? Will he yell at us? Has anyone seen anything like this before?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Are you claiming that George Bush was the perpetrator of 911? Because the way I understand the Reichstag fire is that the Nazi's were the perpetrators, blamed the communists, and used the even to then seize power in Germany. We can certainly see George Bush using 911 to blame Iraq, and then use that to seize power through the Patriot act. But are you saying that George Bush somehow manipulated the death of thousands of Americans?

It doesn't matter if Bush perpetrated 9/11 or not My point is that it had a salutary effect on his presidency even though it happened on his watch.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

It doesn't matter if Bush perpetrated 9/11 or not My point is that it had a salutary effect on his presidency even though it happened on his watch.

Seriously? Lots of events will have a "beneficial" effect on a presidency, Iranians releasing hostages for Reagan, Rise in employment for Trump (based on Obama's policies).

The Reichstag fire is a prime example of a "false flag" event. That makes it special, unique. Hitler didn't benefit as a result of coincidence but as a result of deceit, manipulation and evil.

Comparing 911 to the Reichstag fire will obviously be interpreted by many as you saying they are both false flag events. If you are not saying that then it definitely matters, it is clearly going to cause confusion and misunderstanding.

There are many, myself included, who feel that 911 was a false flag event. If there wasn't any suggestion that 911 was a false flag event then maybe you would be right, but since there are many that do believe it was a false flag event and compare it to the Reichstag fire for exactly that reason, Hitler used the fire to bring in certain laws opening the door for his dictatorship, 911 was used to pass the Patriot act, which has many similarities to the laws Hitler passed in Germany.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow, I was not aware that this was treasonous. Today I mixed mayo and ketchup together on a sandwich. It wasn't technically Russian dressing, but is it treasonous? I don't know? Should we ask Shawn Spicer? Will he yell at us? Has anyone seen anything like this before?

Well, technically it's American dressing, that thing called "Russian dressing" was invented in America. If you add caviar then it becomes more Russian, and is possibly treasonous. So the question everyone should be asking - did Trump add caviar to his sauce?

Oh the irony.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Seriously? Lots of events will have a "beneficial" effect on a presidency, Iranians releasing hostages for Reagan, Rise in employment for Trump (based on Obama's policies).

The Reichstag fire is a prime example of a "false flag" event. That makes it special, unique. Hitler didn't benefit as a result of coincidence but as a result of deceit, manipulation and evil.

Comparing 911 to the Reichstag fire will obviously be interpreted by many as you saying they are both false flag events. If you are not saying that then it definitely matters, it is clearly going to cause confusion and misunderstanding.

There are many, myself included, who feel that 911 was a false flag event. If there wasn't any suggestion that 911 was a false flag event then maybe you would be right, but since there are many that do believe it was a false flag event and compare it to the Reichstag fire for exactly that reason, Hitler used the fire to bring in certain laws opening the door for his dictatorship, 911 was used to pass the Patriot act, which has many similarities to the laws Hitler passed in Germany.

I don't know whether it was a false flag or not, but the result was that it empowered Bush and a similar event would likely empower Trump. Trump has shown that he would use that power against the free media and the judiciary.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't know whether it was a false flag or not, but the result was that it empowered Bush and a similar event would likely empower Trump. Trump has shown that he would use that power against the free media and the judiciary.

Don't you care? It was a trillion dollar war paid for with US tax dollars. It caused the rise of ISIS. You might argue that we had Al Qaeda, but what if that was a smoke screen and Al Qaeda was actually a front, similar to the "communist" accused of burning down the Reichstag? In that case we substituted a false enemy with a real one.

[ZNPaaneah]

Trump recently threatened certain politicians with payback for the defeat of his healthcare bill. Some in the media have characterized this behavior as childish. However, when one of those threatened was asked if this behavior from the President was appropriate he responded "if you are in fifth grade". Now although it might be technically correct to characterize 5th grade behavior as childish, I think the more appropriate term is juvenile.

I really hope the media can put a stop to this obvious bias, the president is not acting childish, he is acting juvenile.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Don't you care? It was a trillion dollar war paid for with US tax dollars. It caused the rise of ISIS. You might argue that we had Al Qaeda, but what if that was a smoke screen and Al Qaeda was actually a front, similar to the "communist" accused of burning down the Reichstag? In that case we substituted a false enemy with a real one.

I opposed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Trump recently threatened certain politicians with payback for the defeat of his healthcare bill. Some in the media have characterized this behavior as childish. However, when one of those threatened was asked if this behavior from the President was appropriate he responded "if you are in fifth grade". Now although it might be technically correct to characterize 5th grade behavior as childish, I think the more appropriate term is juvenile.

I really hope the media can put a stop to this obvious bias, the president is not acting childish, he is acting juvenile.

What an offense to all the 5th graders out there.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What an offense to all the 5th graders out there.

Being likened to Trump?

Reminds me of the guy who went into a bar in Montana and started griping about the "current" president, calling him a horse's behind, and promptly got decked. So he picked himself up and went down to the other end of the bar and asked a guy there, "What's with this place. Is this Clinton country?"

"No. It's horse country."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Being likened to Trump?

Reminds me of the guy who went into a bar in Montana and started griping about the "current" president, calling him a horse's behind, and promptly got decked. So he picked himself up and went down to the other end of the bar and asked a guy there, "What's with this place. Is this Clinton country?"

"No. It's horse country."

Trump recently said that the libel and slander laws should be changed. He was thinking of libel and slander against him. But not thinking of all the libel and slander that he's guilty of.

Here's an example:
Newspaper publisher threatens to sue state lawmaker over ‘fake news’ claim
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02...ke-news-claim/

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Trump recently said that the libel and slander laws should be changed. He was thinking of libel and slander against him. But not thinking of all the libel and slander that he's guilty of.

Here's an example:
Newspaper publisher threatens to sue state lawmaker over ‘fake news’ claim
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/02...ke-news-claim/

Why don't you give him credit for the wonderful honesty in his tweets? For example, concerning this investigation into Trump's campaign colluding with Russia to steal the election he confessed in his tweet that it was "a big scam". Wow! Talk about honesty.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why don't you give him credit for the wonderful honesty in his tweets? For example, concerning this investigation into Trump's campaign colluding with Russia to steal the election he confessed in his tweet that it was "a big scam". Wow! Talk about honesty.

Honest people don't go around saying "believe me" constantly ... unless they are unbelievable ... and that he is indeed.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Honest people don't go around saying "believe me" constantly ... unless they are unbelievable ... and that he is indeed.

How about his recent comment that "he likes nepotism"? Do you believe that?

What about his comments that asking for immunity indicates that you have committed a crime and then encouraging Flynn to seek immunity? Do you believe that?

[ZNPaaneah]

I see some eery comparisons between the period prior to WWI and today.

1. There were four major powers: Britain, France, Russia and Germany. Today I would equate those four with US, Nato, China and Russia.

2. Britain felt that the bigger threat was Russia, hence their foreign policy was designed to favor Russia and disadvantage Germany. Today the US sees China as the bigger threat and we favor China and disadvantage Russia.

3. France had an active policy of containment towards Germany. Today Nato has an active policy of containment towards Russia.

4. France insulted Germany when they seized Morocco. I see Hillary Clinton’s treatment of Russia as also insulting and analogous. The French error led to the resignation of a seasoned and experienced man (Declasse) in charge of foreign policy who was replaced with a novice (Rouvier). Clinton’s insults to Russia have led to her loss of the election and being replaced with a novice. We are now sending Kushner around handling our foreign policy.

5. Germany was forced to attempt to break up the alliances of Britain and France, and also of France and Russia. Today Russia is forced to break up the alliances of the US and Nato and the West with China. This is what is so concerning about the allegations concerning Trump, not just that he has colluded with Russia, but that he is also undermining the alliance with Nato. Taking the phone call from Taiwan was a major slap in the face to China. We will soon see what he does with China. He clearly signaled earlier this week that it would be OK for Syria to do as they wish without US interference. He has thrown three very big wrenches into our alliances with Nato and China, not to mention many little insults as well.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I see some eery comparisons between the period prior to WWI and today.

1. There were four major powers: Britain, France, Russia and Germany. Today I would equate those four with US, Nato, China and Russia.

2. Britain felt that the bigger threat was Russia, hence their foreign policy was designed to favor Russia and disadvantage Germany. Today the US sees China as the bigger threat and we favor China and disadvantage Russia.

3. France had an active policy of containment towards Germany. Today Nato has an active policy of containment towards Russia.

4. France insulted Germany when they seized Morocco. I see Hillary Clinton’s treatment of Russia as also insulting and analogous. The French error led to the resignation of a seasoned and experienced man (Declasse) in charge of foreign policy who was replaced with a novice (Rouvier). Clinton’s insults to Russia have led to her loss of the election and being replaced with a novice. We are now sending Kushner around handling our foreign policy.

5. Germany was forced to attempt to break up the alliances of Britain and France, and also of France and Russia. Today Russia is forced to break up the alliances of the US and Nato and the West with China. This is what is so concerning about the allegations concerning Trump, not just that he has colluded with Russia, but that he is also undermining the alliance with Nato. Taking the phone call from Taiwan was a major slap in the face to China. We will soon see what he does with China. He clearly signaled earlier this week that it would be OK for Syria to do as they wish without US interference. He has thrown three very big wrenches into our alliances with Nato and China, not to mention many little insults as well.

By comparing today with WWI are you seeing a pattern that is building up to WWIII? You did a great job on your post, you just forgot to add a point.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

By comparing today with WWI are you seeing a pattern that is building up to WWIII? You did a great job on your post, you just forgot to add a point.

I would like to think that we have "learned from the past" but with the present administration that would be ludicrous. If Trump came out and said that he is leaning heavily on the pros, Generals that graduated from West Point, etc. then I would think these guys would certainly know how to avoid the mistakes of the recent past. But lets be real, Trump is like Kaiser Wilhelm (a complete idiot on the same scale as Trump) who ignores his military leaders and they in turn will ignore him.

Terrorists in Serbia were no worse than today's ISIS, North Korea and Syria. Whatever happened to the evolution of man? Last night I heard one of these Trump apologists trying to compare Trump's foreign policy with Russia to that of Nixon with China. Comparing Trump and Kushner with Nixon and Kissinger, That is how idiotic these people are. Nixon may have been a crook, but when it came to foreign policy and geopolitics he was in a master league.

Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Eisenhower, or even Nixon. We used to have world class leaders and that is what we need. My point is that in the historical sense we are in "treacherous" waters. We need a very capable captain to guide this ship through these waters. Trump is not that person. How do we know? Syria. ISIS is calling him an idiot. You cannot allow these terrorists to think the US is being led by a buffoon. China called his bluff about "currency manipulator". They can't have any respect for him and they must view him as a very serious enemy after his little stunt with Taiwan. I think they gave North Korea the green light to start shooting off these missiles to blackmail Trump.

Instead of adding a point I would greatly prefer removing Trump. I can't see how we avoid catastrophe on a historic scale with him as president.

Russia is so isolated and has so few allies how can they afford to give up their foothold in Syria and hence the Mid East? China will calculate South Korea is a fair trade for Taiwan, so we see this mess in North Korea as insane, they see Trump as insane. ISIS views the US as an evil empire that uses Muslims as the "boogey man" to justify their undo influence and manipulation of leaders in the Middle East.

In every case I see Trump as making things worse, not better.

[OBW]

I do not know where the statement came from, but one of those banners under the CCN or Fox News talking heads yesterday indicated that someone had suggested that before the term is up, there is a decent chance that Trump could be in jail.

Not sure I buy it, but it would be a definite first.

(Don't ask for specifics. I just saw it in passing walking through our building at work.)

[ZNPaaneah]

It was Ukraine's interest in joining NATO that prompted Russia's invasion, and that invasion has put Montenegro on notice, who was also invited to join NATO.

If you liken the Austro-Hungarian empire at the turn of the last century to the UN with a bunch of different ethnicities stitched together in a patchwork quilt, it was clear then that Russia had a vested interest in seeing that arrangement fail.

So then, what is the purpose of Syria using Sarin gas in direct violation of the UN laws except to tell these people that it is a waste of time to appeal to the UN. These are the same civilians who have been pouring into Europe and are a humanitarian crisis that the UN is supposed to reconcile.

If we look at both the Ukraine invasion and this recent action by Syria we can see very clearly what Russia's "red line" is. When that line is crossed they don't give a press conference, they act. They will not willingly cede power and authority to either NATO or the UN.

Russia is acting like a cornered animal. When you have an animal that is cornered you want to open up a way of escape for them. You could view the melting arctic and the huge oil field as that "way of escape". When Clinton seemingly stood in the way of that once again Russia acted to get rid of her.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then, what is the purpose of Syria using Sarin gas in direct violation of the UN laws except to tell these people that it is a waste of time to appeal to the UN. These are the same civilians who have been pouring into Europe and are a humanitarian crisis that the UN is supposed to reconcile.

I've heard that purpose was to open a pathway into an area that is presently controlled by rebel forces. If so, it was to send a message to the civilians to get out of there, so that Syrian forces can focus on the rebels. But, they stunned the world with their atrocity. And, now Trump has stunned the world again. The world is run by fools with toys of mass destruction. Can anyone imagine a happy ending? Dr. Pinker?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I've heard that purpose was to open a pathway into an area that is presently controlled by rebel forces. If so, it was to send a message to the civilians to get out of there, so that Syrian forces can focus on the rebels. But, they stunned the world with their atrocity. And, now Trump has stunned the world again. The world is run by fools with toys of mass destruction. Can anyone imagine a happy ending? Dr. Pinker?

What Trump just did last night was brilliant!

His strike was appropriate, decisive, timely, and measured.

He attacked the airbase which launched the chemical weapons.

He sent a message to Obama, Assad, Putin, Kim Jong-un, and the Ayatollah Khamenei.

.......

Just passing by, wanted to say hi to all my Trump-hating friends!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What Trump just did last night was brilliant!

His strike was appropriate, decisive, timely, and measured.

He attacked the airbase which launched the chemical weapons.

He sent a message to Obama, Assad, Putin, Kim Jong-un, and the Ayatollah Khamenei.

.......

Just passing by, wanted to say hi to all my Trump-hating friends!

He did it because Hillary & co. told him to do it. He's changed his mind about Assad and Syria. At least now his presidency will be guaranteed by accepting the reality and siding with Hillary & co. You should be happy about that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

He did it because Hillary & co. told him to do it. He's changed his mind about Assad and Syria. At least now his presidency will be guaranteed by accepting the reality and siding with Hillary & co. You should be happy about that.

That now makes as much sense as saying the Russians hacked the election for Trump.

Liberalism is a mental disorder -- Michael Savage.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I've heard that purpose was to open a pathway into an area that is presently controlled by rebel forces. If so, it was to send a message to the civilians to get out of there, so that Syrian forces can focus on the rebels. But, they stunned the world with their atrocity. And, now Trump has stunned the world again. The world is run by fools with toys of mass destruction. Can anyone imagine a happy ending? Dr. Pinker?

Dr. Pinker gave his positive spin based on "per capita" violence. If the world's population has increased ten fold you could have a catastrophe that would have wiped out every single person in 1900, perhaps 10% of the world's population at some future cataclysm, yet on a historical basis using the "per capita" formula would not seem that big. There is nothing in Dr. Pinker's thesis that rules out a war killing 1 billion, instead he argues that relatively speaking that is still not as bad as the violence was thousands of years ago. He wasn't talking in absolute terms but relative terms.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What Trump just did last night was brilliant!

His strike was appropriate, decisive, timely, and measured.

He attacked the airbase which launched the chemical weapons.

He sent a message to Obama, Assad, Putin, Kim Jong-un, and the Ayatollah Khamenei.

.......

Just passing by, wanted to say hi to all my Trump-hating friends!

I applaud what he did and the way in which he did it.

[Evangelical]

I hate to break it to you Ohio, but Hillary said that the US should attack the airfields before Trump decided to do it:

https://qz.com/952656/hours-before-t...ads-airfields/

Hillary has been the the one who thought airstrikes against Assad was a good idea. Trump has always opposed it, until now. I can imagine, that while he was in his bathrobe sitting in bed using the inter net, he probably heard or read about Hillary's thoughts and decided it was a good idea.

He's just backflipped on "not being the world's policeman" in a big way.

It's got me thinking that Hillary & co. has him on a proverbial leash. There may be something else at play here - Trump sides with Hillary, secures his presidency, meanwhile distances himself from Russia by attacking Russian interests.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

My point is that in the historical sense we are in "treacherous" waters. We need a very capable captain to guide this ship through these waters. Trump is not that person. How do we know? Syria. ISIS is calling him an idiot. You cannot allow these terrorists to think the US is being led by a buffoon. China called his bluff about "currency manipulator". They can't have any respect for him and they must view him as a very serious enemy .

Well now. Your post came before The Drumpfster fired 59 Tomahawk missiles into Syria.

Now Trump is great again. And the world knows he has expensive weapons (1 million per Tomahawk) and will use them. Trump needs to look great. He's obsessed with it, it's a compulsion, a fetish of some kind. He needs it so bad that he might even make World War's great again.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well now. Your post came before The Drumpfster fired 59 Tomahawk missiles into Syria.

Now Trump is great again. And the world knows he has expensive weapons (1 million per Tomahawk) and will use them. Trump needs to look great. He's obsessed with it, it's a compulsion, a fetish of some kind. He needs it so bad that he might even make World War's great again.

He claimed to be shocked by the killing of innocent babies by chemical weapons. But he was against taking action when Assad struck innocent babies with toxic chemicals in the past and he has been unwilling to offer asylum to the innocent babies of Syria in the past. Trump is nothing if not duplicitous and self-contradictory. Now he has put the world on alert. Still, that plus approval of his pick Gorsuch for the SCOTUS makes this his best week so far. Heaven help us all.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

He claimed to be shocked by the killing of innocent babies by chemical weapons. But he was against taking action when Assad struck innocent babies with toxic chemicals in the past and he has been unwilling to offer asylum to the innocent babies of Syria in the past. Trump is nothing if not duplicitous and self-contradictory. Now he has put the world on alert. Still, that plus approval of his pick Gorsuch for the SCOTUS makes this his best week so far. Heaven help us all.

Syria is like a womb. He cares about the babies in the womb, but when they come out of the womb they're on their own ... like the abortion thingie. Same thing.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That now makes as much sense as saying the Russians hacked the election for Trump.

Liberalism is a mental disorder -- Michael Savage.

Hey, hey!!! Lent isn't over. But glad yer back.

[OBW]

Liberalism is a mental disorder -- Michael Savage.

I used to listen to Michael Savage some. Generally couldn't take much more than about 30 minutes of him a week.

I have to admit that I tended to agree with his underlying politics (or at least what was said to be his politics on the show). But I despised his demeanor and rancor.

And I would say that his gross disdain for anyone not generally in agreement with him suggested that he might have a mental disorder. One in which he was able to basically hate anyone not agreeing with him and call it righteous.

Michael Savage is not someone I would want to mention in the context of politics and the CHURCH. He is the antithesis of what kind of politics the people of God should have.

And as far as the church is concerned:

Conservatism is not Christian
Liberalism is not Christian
Socialism is not Christian
Capitalism is not Christian

Love God and your neighbor as yourself is Christian

I just couldn't get much love for anyone out of listening to Michael Savage.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well now. Your post came before The Drumpfster fired 59 Tomahawk missiles into Syria.

Now Trump is great again. And the world knows he has expensive weapons (1 million per Tomahawk) and will use them. Trump needs to look great. He's obsessed with it, it's a compulsion, a fetish of some kind. He needs it so bad that he might even make World War's great again.

The return of "the greatest generation". So that is what he meant by "make America Great again".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The return of "the greatest generation". So that is what he meant by "make America Great again".

To Trump everything he does is great. Even if it's not great, or not as great as Obama, he'll say and believe that it is great. Cuz he's great. He'll tell you, and back it up with plenty of "believe me's."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I hate to break it to you Ohio, but Hillary said that the US should attack the airfields before Trump decided to do it:

https://qz.com/952656/hours-before-t...ads-airfields/

Hillary has been the the one who thought airstrikes against Assad was a good idea. Trump has always opposed it, until now. I can imagine, that while he was in his bathrobe sitting in bed using the inter net, he probably heard or read about Hillary's thoughts and decided it was a good idea.

He's just backflipped on "not being the world's policeman" in a big way.

It's got me thinking that Hillary & co. has him on a proverbial leash. There may be something else at play here - Trump sides with Hillary, secures his presidency, meanwhile distances himself from Russia by attacking Russian interests.

Hillary got wind of the plan from John McCain, who actually had military experience, who was briefed by Trump's staff. The military developed their strategy to attack the Shy-Rat airfield nearly five years ago when your hero Nobama mentioned his "red line" in the desert sand.

[zeek]

Trump's ineffectual missle strike was an attempt to avert attention from his collusion with Russia. The US is still mired in Syrian proxy war with no end in sight.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hillary got wind of the plan from John McCain, who actually had military experience, who was briefed by Trump's staff. The military developed their strategy to attack the Shy-Rat airfield nearly five years ago when your hero Nobama mentioned his "red line" in the desert sand.

Yeah, when a black man does it, congress shuts him down. But when a white man does it, congress gives him a tongue bath ... even when it's unconstitutional ... that they all took an oath to uphold.

Still, it only took 59 Tomahawk missiles, costing a pittance of only 59 million (plus expenses), to make Trump great again.

Go Trump. Keep on being great ... even if it takes WWIII.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump's ineffectual missle strike was an attempt to avert attention from his collusion with Russia. The US is still mired in Syrian proxy war with no end in sight.

How do you know?

Syria's use of Sarin gas is a very clear violation of the UN rules and the world needed someone to take the lead. If the US hadn't reacted it would have meant UN laws are a sham.

Tit for Tat is a legitimate strategy in game theory, adding the option to forgive in certain situations is the ideal strategy. Trump's action was clearly a Tit for Tat. He hit the air base that used the Sarin Gas with a lot of missiles and it sent a very clear message that Syria will pay if they do this again. On the other hand you don't want to destroy Syria's air force because that would open the door for ISIS.

It seems clear to me this was a plan developed by the Pentagon, it was implemented cleanly without any loss of US life, and it sent a very clear message -- use chemical weapons and you will pay a price. We don't want to destroy your air force unless you force us to do it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How do you know?

Syria's use of Sarin gas is a very clear violation of the UN rules and the world needed someone to take the lead. If the US hadn't reacted it would have meant UN laws are a sham.

Tit for Tat is a legitimate strategy in game theory, adding the option to forgive in certain situations is the ideal strategy. Trump's action was clearly a Tit for Tat. He hit the air base that used the Sarin Gas with a lot of missiles and it sent a very clear message

No ... a clear message would have been to only fire one Tomahawk missile ... into Assad's palace ; just one, costing only 1 million busks. That would have sent a clear message ; that Assad's life is in danger, if he does it again.

The strike left a string of jets untouched. And Assad used the same airstrip to take off from, to go bomb the city he gassed.

Zeek is right "Trump's ineffectual missle strike...."

But who cares. Trump is great. It sure accomplished that ; missile strike effective.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How do you know?

Syria's use of Sarin gas is a very clear violation of the UN rules and the world needed someone to take the lead. If the US hadn't reacted it would have meant UN laws are a sham.

Tit for Tat is a legitimate strategy in game theory, adding the option to forgive in certain situations is the ideal strategy. Trump's action was clearly a Tit for Tat. He hit the air base that used the Sarin Gas with a lot of missiles and it sent a very clear message that Syria will pay if they do this again. On the other hand you don't want to destroy Syria's air force because that would open the door for ISIS.

It seems clear to me this was a plan developed by the Pentagon, it was implemented cleanly without any loss of US life, and it sent a very clear message -- use chemical weapons and you will pay a price. We don't want to destroy your air force unless you force us to do it.

absolutely.

The Pentagon prepped the identical plan for Obama, the black man, five years ago who should have acted on it, but never did. Obama was pro-Shiite, since Valerie Jarrett was an Iranian communist.

Hillary, McCain, and half of DC knew the plan.

The UN is worthless. They and Obama are totally anti-Israel. They take strategic action against Israel for building houses, yet do nothing when Assad gases his own people. The UN charter was supposed to stop genocide, not better housing. Trump should end all payments to the UN.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, when a black man does it, congress shuts him down. But when a white man does it, congress gives him a tongue bath ... even when it's unconstitutional ... that they all took an oath to uphold.

Still, it only took 59 Tomahawk missiles, costing a pittance of only 59 million (plus expenses), to make Trump great again.

Go Trump. Keep on being great ... even if it takes WWIII.

Obama set us up for WWIII.

He did nothing about North Korean nukes.

He gave Iran billions for their Nuke program.

He did nothing to stop Assad since Hezbollah trained in Syria.

Obama even scolded Romney for being concerned about Russia.

The entire Russian hacking fake news is a ruse to coverup Clinton ties with Putin.

Then he got his coveted UN resolution condemning Israel over Palestine.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

absolutely.

The Pentagon prepped the identical plan for Obama, the black man, five years ago who should have acted on it, but never did. Obama was pro-Shiite, since Valerie Jarrett was an Iranian communist.

Hillary, McCain, and half of DC knew the plan.

The UN is worthless. They and Obama are totally anti-Israel. They take strategic action against Israel for building houses, yet do nothing when Assad gases his own people. The UN charter was supposed to stop genocide, not better housing. Trump should end all payments to the UN.

America can withdraw from the UN.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

[/B]
Obama set us up for WWIII.

He did nothing about North Korean nukes.

He gave Iran billions for their Nuke program.

He did nothing to stop Assad since Hezbollah trained in Syria.

Obama even scolded Romney for being concerned about Russia.

The entire Russian hacking fake news is a ruse to coverup Clinton ties with Putin.

Then he got his coveted UN resolution condemning Israel over Palestine.

Sounds like Obama was the most powerful president ever in history. He has to be. Or Trump wouldn't be great ... when he undoes everything Obama ... except for that pesky OBAMAcare.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

No ... a clear message would have been to only fire one Tomahawk missile ... into Assad's palace ; just one, costing only 1 million busks. That would have sent a clear message ; that Assad's life is in danger, if he does it again.

The strike left a string of jets untouched. And Assad used the same airstrip to take off from, to go bomb the city he gassed.

Zeek is right "Trump's ineffectual missle strike...."

But who cares. Trump is great. It sure accomplished that ; missile strike effective.

That would have been extremely destabilizing without any damage to his ability to strike back. You shoot at me then you have lost any high ground for any response I make, because now my response is self defense.

We don't want to destabilize Syria, that opens the door to ISIS. What we want is for Syria to continue to be a buffer against ISIS without using chemical weapons.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

absolutely.

The Pentagon prepped the identical plan for Obama, the black man, five years ago who should have acted on it, but never did. Obama was pro-Shiite, since Valerie Jarrett was an Iranian communist.

Hillary, McCain, and half of DC knew the plan.

The UN is worthless. They and Obama are totally anti-Israel. They take strategic action against Israel for building houses, yet do nothing when Assad gases his own people. The UN charter was supposed to stop genocide, not better housing. Trump should end all payments to the UN.

I agree that setting a red line, and then watching passively as Syria crossed that line was a serious mistake. To say he was pro shiite is further than I am willing to go.

[Evangelical]

The Syrian government killed 70 people, of which 20 were children. That's a child to civilian ration of 29%.

Trump in response, killed 9 civilians, of which 4 were children.That's a child to total civilian ratio of 44%.

Therefore Trump is more of a child-killer than Assad, in this instance.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The Syrian government killed 70 people, of which 20 were children. That's a child to civilian ration of 29%.

Trump in response, killed 9 civilians, of which 4 were children.That's a child to total civilian ratio of 44%.

Therefore Trump is more of a child-killer than Assad, in this instance.

Wow! So Stalin and Hitler, even though they killed millions, since less than a third of those they killed were children that would make Trump a bigger child killer than Stalin or Hitler?! Who knew!

This is terrifying. I read a story about this "sweet" old lady who "accidentally" hit and killed a child while driving. It came out in the story that this was her first accident. She only killed one person in her entire life and it was a child! OMG, she is a bigger child killer than Stalin, Hitler, or even Trump!

Great use of statistics in verifying Mark Twain's claim. BTW I also read that teenage pregnancy drops off dramatically when girls hit the age of 25.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The Syrian government killed 70 people, of which 20 were children. That's a child to civilian ration of 29%.

Trump in response, killed 9 civilians, of which 4 were children.That's a child to total civilian ratio of 44%.

Therefore Trump is more of a child-killer than Assad, in this instance.

Yeah right!

There were little children playing in armored military hangers at 3 am, while all the Russians were taking off!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That would have been extremely destabilizing without any damage to his ability to strike back. You shoot at me then you have lost any high ground for any response I make, because now my response is self defense.

We don't want to destabilize Syria, that opens the door to ISIS. What we want is for Syria to continue to be a buffer against ISIS without using chemical weapons.

UN Ambassador Nikki Haley disagrees with you. She says there won''t be peace without removing Assad.

It would only take one Tomahawk to do so.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The UN is worthless. They and Obama are totally anti-Israel.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Ya can't be totally against Israel and send the largest shipment of military weapons in history for Israel to use against the Gazans ... including white phosphorus bombs.

Maybe you are just seeing appearances. Obama has to stick up for the plight of the Palestinians ... as any humane human should do. But behind the appearances, money and weapons, proved that he was with Israel.

Methinks, as I gather from most anywhere, that it's religion that blinds people to the plight of the Palestinians ; driving them to even go so far as to claim antisemitism against those sticking up for the Palestinians. Like Jimmy Carter, for instance.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

UN Ambassador Nikki Haley disagrees with you. She says there won''t be peace without removing Assad.

It would only take one Tomahawk to do so.

They want to remove him by diplomatic means, not force, and they have set fighting ISIS as a higher priority. So I guess that means I was right after all.

Returning to the WWI analogy -- Russia was viewed as a country that was growing unchecked both in population and wealth. They seemed like an unstoppable force. It may seem weird to us today, but this was definitely the feeling of Germany and others. That is not unlike the view of China today.

Germany felt that war was inevitable and the longer they waited the more likely they would lose.

England and France were so caught up in their own security they did not regard the security of Germany. I think this is called the "security dilemma" where one country increases their feeling of security at the expense of another which then feels less secure.

But in the mix of these four you had the "Austro Hungarian" empire which was a patchwork quilt of different ethnicities who were the most miserable -- Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro being the foremost. These countries were the only ones who actually wanted war.

Today that would be ISIS, Iraq and Syria.

If you take out Assad with a missile you also take out Russia's connection to the Middle East. That would greatly increase their feeling of insecurity. You can't do that unless you want to start WWIII. Syria and ISIS are fighting an ugly, no holds barred war to the death. We don't need to have these two misfits drag the US and Russia into a world war over the Middle East.

What we need is for a negotiated settlement where Russia removes Assad and replaces him with someone they are comfortable with.

The UN is today's "Austro-Hungarian" Empire and could easily be the lynchpin to another major war.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They want to remove him by diplomatic means, not force, and they have set fighting ISIS as a higher priority. So I guess that means I was right after all.

Returning to the WWI analogy -- Russia was viewed as a country that was growing unchecked both in population and wealth. They seemed like an unstoppable force. It may seem weird to us today, but this was definitely the feeling of Germany and others. That is not unlike the view of China today.

Germany felt that war was inevitable and the longer they waited the more likely they would lose.

England and France were so caught up in their own security they did not regard the security of Germany. I think this is called the "security dilemma" where one country increases their feeling of security at the expense of another which then feels less secure.

But in the mix of these four you had the "Austro Hungarian" empire which was a patchwork quilt of different ethnicities who were the most miserable -- Serbia, Kosovo and Montenegro being the foremost. These countries were the only ones who actually wanted war.

Today that would be ISIS, Iraq and Syria.

If you take out Assad with a missile you also take out Russia's connection to the Middle East. That would greatly increase their feeling of insecurity. You can't do that unless you want to start WWIII. Syria and ISIS are fighting an ugly, no holds barred war to the death. We don't need to have these two misfits drag the US and Russia into a world war over the Middle East.

What we need is for a negotiated settlement where Russia removes Assad and replaces him with someone they are comfortable with.

The UN is today's "Austro-Hungarian" Empire and could easily be the lynchpin to another major war.

Let's make world wars great again.

[OBW]

Hard to buy what Trump says. He's been practicing one of his self-help books where he suggests the use of "truthful hyperbole." Something true said in a way that significantly overstates the truth yet somehow seems impossible to challenge.

I noted back during the campaign that a lot of what Trump said was so scattered and bombastic that the only response was that of the AFLAC duck when faced with Yogi Berra's statements about money.

"What insurance is that, Yogi?"
"It's the one you need because if you don't have it, that's why you need it."
"If you get hurt and miss work, it won't hurt to miss work."
"And they give you cash, which is just as good as money."

At which everyone opens their mouth to speak but nothing comes out.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Let's make world wars great again.

Apparently you prefer the Jarrett/Obama way -- give our enemies all the money they need to build nuclear arsenals, and then hide our head in the sands of political correctness.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Hard to buy what Trump says. He's been practicing one of his self-help books where he suggests the use of "truthful hyperbole." Something true said in a way that significantly overstates the truth yet somehow seems impossible to challenge.

I noted back during the campaign that a lot of what Trump said was so scattered and bombastic that the only response was that of the AFLAC duck when faced with Yogi Berra's statements about money.

"What insurance is that, Yogi?"
"It's the one you need because if you don't have it, that's why you need it."
"If you get hurt and miss work, it won't hurt to miss work."
"And they give you cash, which is just as good as money."

At which everyone opens their mouth to speak but nothing comes out.

The Trump tweets have more positions than the Kama Sutra.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apparently you prefer the Jarrett/Obama way -- give our enemies all the money they need to build nuclear arsenals, and then hide our head in the sands of political correctness.

Hey, hey, now, don't get carried away.

For your info, Trump is holding a seder tonight to mark the first night of Passover, that was started in 2008 and carried on by Obama since. See, Obama is not "totally anti-Israel."

Money, and weapons, to Israel, and a seder, don't make for much anti-Israel.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow! So Stalin and Hitler, even though they killed millions, since less than a third of those they killed were children that would make Trump a bigger child killer than Stalin or Hitler?! Who knew!

This is terrifying. I read a story about this "sweet" old lady who "accidentally" hit and killed a child while driving. It came out in the story that this was her first accident. She only killed one person in her entire life and it was a child! OMG, she is a bigger child killer than Stalin, Hitler, or even Trump!

Great use of statistics in verifying Mark Twain's claim. BTW I also read that teenage pregnancy drops off dramatically when girls hit the age of 25.

That's not how the statistics works. If you are a child you have a much bigger chance of being killed by one of Trumps missiles (in response to Assad) than Assad's chemical attacks, based upon the evidence. Imagine Trump has a weighted coin and Assad has a weighted coin. Trump's die is weighted towards killing children, more than Assad's is.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's not how the statistics works. If you are a child you have a much bigger chance of being killed by one of Trumps missiles (in response to Assad) than Assad's chemical attacks, based upon the evidence. Imagine Trump has a weighted coin and Assad has a weighted coin. Trump's die is weighted towards killing children, more than Assad's is.

That's factually improbable and statistically false. The source of the story that four children died in the missile strike is the Syrian state media. and therefore probably bias and incorrect. Assad has conducted multiple chemical attacks and killed thousands of innocent children.

But even if you only go by the allegation that Assad's chemical weapon strike killed 20 children and Trump's missile killed four, Assad killed a larger percentage of the total number of children in Syria than Trump's did. On that basis, a child in Syria has a bigger chance of being killed by one of Assad's chemical attacks than a Trump's missiles.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That's not how the statistics works. If you are a child you have a much bigger chance of being killed by one of Trumps missiles (in response to Assad) than Assad's chemical attacks, based upon the evidence. Imagine Trump has a weighted coin and Assad has a weighted coin. Trump's die is weighted towards killing children, more than Assad's is.

Assad's regime has been estimated to have killed 8,000 to 17,000 children from three separate groups (UN, Oxford Research group, and an opposition party in Syria). This does not include women, civilians, or children who have been tortured.

As for Trump his military strike landed clearly and undeniably in a military base that was actively being used for war.

Yes, according to Mark Twain this is how statistics works, to build a case for damn liars.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hey, hey, now, don't get carried away.

For your info, Trump is holding a seder tonight to mark the first night of Passover, that was started in 2008 and carried on by Obama since. See, Obama is not "totally anti-Israel."

Money, and weapons, to Israel, and a seder, don't make for much anti-Israel.

Update. Trump skipped the seder, and left his seat empty. So who's anti-Israel now?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Assad's regime has been estimated to have killed 8,000 to 17,000 children from three separate groups (UN, Oxford Research group, and an opposition party in Syria). This does not include women, civilians, or children who have been tortured.

As for Trump his military strike landed clearly and undeniably in a military base that was actively being used for war.

Yes, according to Mark Twain this is how statistics works, to build a case for damn liars.

We don't always agree, but you do always strive to seek out the truth.

[awareness]

!!! NEWS FLASH !!!
Putin expects to see a fake gas attack in Syria to justify America hitting the Syrian capital.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...ice=responsive

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

!!! NEWS FLASH !!!
Putin expects to see a fake gas attack in Syria to justify America hitting the Syrian capital.

Putin is KGB. Their careers center on dissembling fake news and false flags.

Remember Russian Nukes in Cuba? It was US surveillance photos which exposed their lies.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Update. Trump skipped the seder, and left his seat empty. So who's anti-Israel now?

I thought the empty seat was for Moses or God?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Assad's regime has been estimated to have killed 8,000 to 17,000 children from three separate groups (UN, Oxford Research group, and an opposition party in Syria). This does not include women, civilians, or children who have been tortured.

As for Trump his military strike landed clearly and undeniably in a military base that was actively being used for war.

Yes, according to Mark Twain this is how statistics works, to build a case for damn liars.

Do you believe Mattis's claim that 20% of Syrians air force was taken out? Is Mattis telling the truth or is he a liar?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you believe Mattis's claim that 20% of Syrians air force was taken out? Is Mattis telling the truth or is he a liar?

I believe a number of airplanes were destroyed. Other than that I would have no idea how big Assad's airfare is, or how to calculate 20%. Even if 20% of the airplanes are destroyed that would not equal 20% of the airforce as there are many more assets in to the airforce besides airplanes. To my understanding none of the airports were destroyed. None of the pilots or mechanics were killed. None of the training facilities were destroyed. etc.

I think the message is not that "the US wants to destroy your airforce" but rather "if you use chemical weapons we will humiliate you and make you pay"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Do you believe Mattis's claim that 20% of Syrians air force was taken out? Is Mattis telling the truth or is he a liar?

I mostly wonder if Evangelical ever told the truth or is he a liar?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I believe a number of airplanes were destroyed. Other than that I would have no idea how big Assad's airfare is, or how to calculate 20%. Even if 20% of the airplanes are destroyed that would not equal 20% of the airforce as there are many more assets in to the airforce besides airplanes. To my understanding none of the airports were destroyed. None of the pilots or mechanics were killed. None of the training facilities were destroyed. etc.

I think the message is not that "the US wants to destroy your airforce" but rather "if you use chemical weapons we will humiliate you and make you pay"

"Syria has at least 450 Russian-made jet fighters such as powerful Mig-23, Mig-25 and Mig-29 military aircraft."
from here:
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/...ia-claims.html

The claim was 20 aircraft destroyed. If true, that is only 4%.

So it seems like the Syrian State Media and the American Government are on par in terms of spreading falsehoods.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"Syria has at least 450 Russian-made jet fighters such as powerful Mig-23, Mig-25 and Mig-29 military aircraft."
from here:
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/...ia-claims.html

The claim was 20 aircraft destroyed. If true, that is only 4%.

So it seems like the Syrian State Media and the American Government are on par in terms of spreading falsehoods.

I have not been following the news closely this last week, but I think I recall someone correcting or clarifying the statement that "20% of the airforce was destroyed" to "20 airplanes were destroyed"

If that is the case then I find that a reasonable explanation. If we are to close our ears to any "corrections" or "clarifications" then I would conclude that you also are on par with Syria in spreading falsehoods.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Putin is KGB. Their careers center on dissembling fake news and false flags.

Remember Russian Nukes in Cuba? It was US surveillance photos which exposed their lies.

True ... and Putin may be acting a role to help Trump divert the investigation into campaign Russia ties ... just for show ... to throw off the investigations.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Assad's regime has been estimated to have killed 8,000 to 17,000 children from three separate groups (UN, Oxford Research group, and an opposition party in Syria). This does not include women, civilians, or children who have been tortured.

If Trump really cared about the children he would let the clearly destitute Syrian refugees into America.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

If Trump really cared about the children he would let the clearly destitute Syrian refugees into America.

Then Our country will be filled with destitute refugees, and who will take Americans?

The US is now the poorest country on earth. Perhaps Trump will help us get thru bankruptcy, since he has some experience in this area.

Have you not read what is happening in European countries due to the "compassionate" policies of those in Brussels? Have you not read all the stories about "destitute" refugees raping all the locals?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you not read what is happening in European countries due to the "compassionate" policies of those in Brussels? Have you not read all the stories about "destitute" refugees raping all the locals?

Editorialist at Sweden's top newspaper proclaims the solution to the latest string of terrorist attacks -- ban all cars, delivery trucks, and all vehicles which have become "effective killing machines" and "deadly weapons" and must simply be removed from city centres and places where people walk and gather.

Brilliant! You have already banned guns. What's next? Banning kitchen knives, baseball bats, and rope?

Why not castrate all sex offenders from Syria?

In one Swedish Mooslim community, the police force is no longer permitted to take public transportation to work at the local police station. It's just too dangerous for them. The new police station they have to build is like a fortress in Syria -- right in the center of Stockholm.

[zeek]

Bannon doesn't play well with others. He's standing on shaky ground with Trump.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The US is now the poorest country on earth.

Care to explain this?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Care to explain this?

$20 Trillion deficit. Borrowing nearly $3 Billion a day to stay afloat.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Editorialist at Sweden's top newspaper proclaims the solution to the latest string of terrorist attacks -- ban all cars, delivery trucks, and all vehicles which have become "effective killing machines" and "deadly weapons" and must simply be removed from city centres and places where people walk and gather.

Brilliant! You have already banned guns. What's next? Banning kitchen knives, baseball bats, and rope?

Why not castrate all sex offenders from Syria?

In one Swedish Mooslim community, the police force is no longer permitted to take public transportation to work at the local police station. It's just too dangerous for them. The new police station they have to build is like a fortress in Syria -- right in the center of Stockholm.

Looks like Lent didn't help.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

$20 Trillion deficit. Borrowing nearly $3 Billion a day to stay afloat.

That's the debt not the deficit.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then Our country will be filled with destitute refugees, and who will take Americans?

The US is now the poorest country on earth. Perhaps Trump will help us get thru bankruptcy, since he has some experience in this area.

Have you not read what is happening in European countries due to the "compassionate" policies of those in Brussels? Have you not read all the stories about "destitute" refugees raping all the locals?

Yeah all those little children refugees come here and immediately start raping. It's awful. Who wants that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Looks like Lent didn't help.

Originally Posted by zeek

That's the debt not the deficit. Know it all.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

$20 Trillion deficit. Borrowing nearly $3 Billion a day to stay afloat.

At the time of 9/11 we had a debt around $7 trillion. At the height of the great depression our debt was 300% of our GNP, in 2010 it was 370%. By any reasonable estimation of credit the US should be raising alarm bells. The US debt virtually doubled under Obama.

From 1950 to 1980 our debt to GNP ratio was less than 200%, a healthy ratio.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

At the time of 9/11 we had a debt around $7 trillion. At the height of the great depression our debt was 300% of our GNP, in 2010 it was 370%. By any reasonable estimation of credit the US should be raising alarm bells. The US debt virtually doubled under Obama.

From 1950 to 1980 our debt to GNP ratio was less than 200%, a healthy ratio.

Careful what you say. zeek might turn on you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I have not been following the news closely this last week, but I think I recall someone correcting or clarifying the statement that "20% of the airforce was destroyed" to "20 airplanes were destroyed"

If that is the case then I find that a reasonable explanation. If we are to close our ears to any "corrections" or "clarifications" then I would conclude that you also are on par with Syria in spreading falsehoods.

Mattis said 20%, it's a direct quote from him. I will wait patiently for your clarifying statement if you can produce it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Mattis said 20%, it's a direct quote from him. I will wait patiently for your clarifying statement if you can produce it.

Thanks for cleaning up this post.

How about we let Mattis clarify his own statements. Aye Matey?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Careful what you say. zeek might turn on you.

Right. None of that polite liberal politically correct **** for me. You **** with me and I'll **** you back ten times as hard. Trump is president now. I'm following his teaching. Jesus was about forgiveness. Trump preaches revenge is sweet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right. None of that polite liberal politically correct **** for me. You **** with me and I'll **** you back ten times as hard. Trump is president now. I'm following his teaching. Jesus was about forgiveness. Trump preaches revenge is sweet.

Sounds like you have "converted" to Trump, except for all of your revenge talk. What exactly did you mean by referring to Jesus and forgiveness? I am here trying to love my enemies, but you desire revenge on those whose opinions differ from yours.

Sorry, but the PC liberal progressives never have been very polite. Have you not read about violent protests all over the US from these intolerant snowflakes, becoming anarchists in the name of safe space? Apparently you feel this alt-forum is your cyber "safe space."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Mattis said 20%, it's a direct quote from him. I will wait patiently for your clarifying statement if you can produce it.

“The assessment of the Department of Defense is that the strike resulted in the damage or destruction of fuel and ammunition sites, air defense capabilities, and 20 percent of Syria’s operational aircraft,” Mattis said in a statement. NY Post, April 10, 2017

Defense analysts IHS Jane's estimate the Syrian airforce has about 262 strike aircraft, although the company admits this may be an imperfect number due to the ongoing war. CNN Tue April 11, 2017

Owning 262 strike aircraft is not equal to having 262 "operational" strike aircraft.

The question then becomes how many of the 262 are operational. Unless you have a better source than Janes or the US defense department, I'll stick with the existing estimate.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like you have "converted" to Trump, except for all of your revenge talk. What exactly did you mean by referring to Jesus and forgiveness? I am here trying to love my enemies, but you desire revenge on those whose opinions differ from yours.

Sorry, but the PC liberal progressives never have been very polite. Have you not read about violent protests all over the US from these intolerant snowflakes, becoming anarchists in the name of safe space? Apparently you feel this alt-forum is your cyber "safe space."

As usual, you are misinformed. Obviously you haven't read Trump's book "Think Big" where he teaches how sweet revenge is. https://www.amazon.com/Think-Big-Mak...sap_bc?ie=UTF8 Didn't you listen to his speeches? Here's an excerpt from one:

One of the things you should do in terms of success: If somebody hits you, you've got to hit 'em back five times harder than they ever thought possible. You've got to get even. Get even. And the reason, the reason you do, is so important…The reason you do, you have to do it, because if they do that to you, you have to leave a telltale sign that they just can't take advantage of you. It's not so much for the person, which does make you feel good, to be honest with you, I've done it many times. But other people watch and you know they say, "Well, let's leave Trump alone," or "Let's leave this one," or "Doris, let's leave her alone. They fight too hard." I say it, and it's so important. You have to, you have to hit back. You have to hit back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBbebWxFbvw

Of course, if you hit someone back five times harder you have escalated the conflict not gotten even. But, logic is not Trump's strong suit. Jesus taught us to "turn the other cheek" a policy for sissies and losers according to Trump. Not that you're in any danger of following Jesus.

[ZNPaaneah]

I just finished reading "The Plot to Hack America" by Malcolm Nance.

He does an excellent job of providing convincing evidence that two different and independent Russian groups of hackers operated on hacking the election with the same goal of helping Donald Trump's campaign. (It is suggested that the KGB does this to encourage competition).

He does a decent job of explaining how the KGB works, why they might target Donald Trump for "development" and why they might want him to win the election.

There was, however, no evidence given in this book of collusion between Trump and the Russians. The most you could say is that the evidence in this book demands that we investigate the election and that has to include Trump's tax records.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's a mischaracterization. The Bible regulates slavery, providing rules. But it doesn't forbid it anywhere, both Old and New.

Slavery as regulated by rules in the Bible is very similar to an NFL contract.

The regulations in the bible clearly and specifically prohibit chattel slavery or slave traders or slavery based on race or lifetime slavery, etc. According to the Biblical regulations slavery was a choice that the person being enslaved chose and it was temporary.

However, when you say that the Bible "justified" slavery those unfamiliar with the Bible assume you are saying that the Bible justified slavery as practiced by Southern plantations in the US prior to the Civil War. The Bible does not justify those practices, it specifically prohibited them. Hence your statements are intentionally misleading.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

$20 Trillion deficit. Borrowing nearly $3 Billion a day to stay afloat.

Tell that to anyone but the rich rulers of so many third-world countries.

Funny thing is that having debt is not a sign of being poor. Inability to pay it could be.

But then what is the chance that anyone is going to call the debt?

BTW. Has it changed under the new administration? Did it under Bush (either one)? or Regan? Time for us to stop blaming only the liberals. The conservatives just spend more than they make on different things. For example, on military toys rather than people.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

As usual, you are misinformed. Obviously you haven't read Trump's book "Think Big." Didn't you listen to his speeches?

Of course, if you hit someone back five times harder you have escalated the conflict not gotten even. But, logic is not Trump's strong suit. Jesus taught us to "turn the other cheek" a policy for sissies and losers according to Trump. Not that you're in any danger of following Jesus.

Never read any of Trump's books. Never will. I too have lots of complaints about his character.

But you have given up on the faith in the word of God, and you will lecture me on following Jesus? According to what, how much Jesus loves terrorists?

Your over-generalized and intolerant identity politics are getting so old -- casting all of Trump's sins and snafus upon any and all Americans who have found him preferable to crooked Hillary.

Should I do the same and continually slander you for all of Bill and Hillary's crimes and failures? Can't you distinguish the two? Aren't you a grown man? I expect more from you than from all the campus snowflakes.

Can't you at least show an ounce of Christian charity? Today is the remembrance of the Last Supper when the New Covenant was enacted.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Tell that to anyone but the rich rulers of so many third-world countries.

Funny thing is that having debt is not a sign of being poor. Inability to pay it could be.

But then what is the chance that anyone is going to call the debt?

BTW. Has it changed under the new administration? Did it under Bush (either one)? or Reagan? T ime for us to stop blaming only the liberals. The conservatives just spend more than they make on different things. For example, on military toys rather than people.

All politicians have failed us. They are all crooks and liars. You need to talk to the Clinton Foundation about those rich rulers, not me.

I made a comment about the US being the poorest nation, and now I get your lecture about "blaming only liberals." What do I need republican disclaimers in my signature line?

The time will come when we won't be able to even pay the interest payments. I thought you were an accountant. Don't you know how money works? We can't just keep borrowing to even pay the interest.

BTW, Reagan's military toys ended the cold war. They made us safer. They gave lots of jobs to American scientists and engineers rather than illegal aliens. Why is it that these wealthy Mooslem countries like the Emirates don't have to take in any Syrian refugees? I thought they were all "brothers." They got black gold flowing out of the ground -- plenty for everybody.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Slavery as regulated by rules in the Bible is very similar to an NFL contract.

After watching the movie Concussion, perhaps Biblical slavery is preferable.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I just finished reading "The Plot to Hack America" by Malcolm Nance.

He does an excellent job of providing convincing evidence that two different and independent Russian groups of hackers operated on hacking the election with the same goal of helping Donald Trump's campaign. (It is suggested that the KGB does this to encourage competition).

He does a decent job of explaining how the KGB works, why they might target Donald Trump for "development" and why they might want him to win the election.

There was, however, no evidence given in this book of collusion between Trump and the Russians. The most you could say is that the evidence in this book demands that we investigate the election and that has to include Trump's tax records.

KGB thrives on misinformation. If a book indicates they might help Trump, I would be inclined to believe the opposite might occur.

But the KGB also thrives on chaos, and we have had plenty of that since last Nov 8. So I think we could make a strong case for Russia supporting both candidates. Support Trump and get chaos, support Clinton and get a pushover. Both are desirable to Russia.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Tell that to anyone but the rich rulers of so many third-world countries.

Funny thing is that having debt is not a sign of being poor. Inability to pay it could be.

But then what is the chance that anyone is going to call the debt?

BTW. Has it changed under the new administration? Did it under Bush (either one)? or Regan? Time for us to stop blaming only the liberals. The conservatives just spend more than they make on different things. For example, on military toys rather than people.

They will be forced to in much the same way that the Roman Empire collapsed.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All politicians have failed us. They are all crooks and liars. You need to talk to the Clinton Foundation about those rich rulers, not me.

I made a comment about the US being the poorest nation, and now I get your lecture about "blaming only liberals." What do I need republican disclaimers in my signature line?

The time will come when we won't be able to even pay the interest payments. I thought you were an accountant. Don't you know how money works? We can't just keep borrowing to even pay the interest.

BTW, Reagan's military toys ended the cold war. They made us safer. They gave lots of jobs to American scientists and engineers rather than illegal aliens. Why is it that these wealthy Mooslem countries like the Emirates don't have to take in any Syrian refugees? I thought they were all "brothers." They got black gold flowing out of the ground -- plenty for everybody.

Our current debt is equivalent to a person with a take home pay of $7,000 a month needing to pay $3,000 a month to pay off the debt. This is still doable as long as we don't want to live a lifestyle of someone making 120k, but are willing to live like someone making half that.

Bankruptcy is how the rich get rich, they buy assets at fire sale prices and then sell them at inflated prices at the height of the speculative bubble.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

KGB thrives on misinformation. If a book indicates they might help Trump, I would be inclined to believe the opposite might occur.

But the KGB also thrives on chaos, and we have had plenty of that since last Nov 8. So I think we could make a strong case for Russia supporting both candidates. Support Trump and get chaos, support Clinton and get a pushover. Both are desirable to Russia.

The hackers used very sophisticated tools not available to your typical hacker. Nor did they act like a political activist who would be pushing a policy or trying to cause anarchy. They didn't act like a black hat or white hat hacker. A white hat hacker leaves a note saying "I found a weakness, call me if you want it patched". A black hat is trying to steal something, IDs, money, or blackmail.

What these guys did was fully focused on Trump. They stole the DNC playbook on how to take down Trump. Then their leaks were totally aligned and timed with what would help Trump's campaign the most. They leaked the inference that the DNC was helping Clinton to the disadvantage of Sanders right before the Democratic convention, right before Sanders was going to pledge his support for Clinton. It was the best time to cause a split in the Democratic party.

That is one example, but there are two or three remarkable coincidences when Trump called for the Russian hackers to find something, only for them to leak it the next day.

Why would they target Trump?

1. They look for egotistical, narcissists.
2. They look for people who are motivated by money or sex.
3. The Russian oligarchy has become very much involved in real estate, investing in US real estate.
4. They specifically invited Trump to run the Miss Universe contest in Moscow.
5. They invited Trump to build a Trump tower in Moscow.

6. This is why I feel the conclusion is we must see Trump's tax returns, he was in bankruptcy, no US bank would loan him money at the same time he became endeared with the Russians and was quoted as saying how much he wanted to invest in Russia.

7. There are a number of people who are closely related to the KGB involved in Trump's real estate deals, some we know about, one woman who was very clearly a KGB agent, was one that I had not heard of before.

That said I wonder if Trump was unwitting in the hack. It seems only a complete and utter idiot would publicly call on Russia to get the 30,000 missing emails of Clinton if he was colluding with them. Such an act would qualify as treason and would be punishable by a minimum of 5 years in prison, and a maximum of the death penalty. I do not consider Trump as a "complete and utter idiot", therefore I find it very difficult to believe he was knowingly involved in the hack.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right. None of that polite liberal politically correct **** for me. You **** with me and I'll **** you back ten times as hard. Trump is president now. I'm following his teaching. Jesus was about forgiveness. Trump preaches revenge is sweet.

I would quote Shakespeare -- "blistered be thy tongue for such thoughts" but apparently your tongue already is blistered.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After watching the movie Concussion, perhaps Biblical slavery is preferable.

"They have to know" -- in other words if you are going to consider the NFL contract truly a choice made by the players then they have to know. Otherwise they never really did make this choice.

At least the Bible tells them up front -- you may get beaten but if you recover from the beating then there is no liability to the one who gave you the contract.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

As usual, you are misinformed. Obviously you haven't read Trump's book "Think Big" where he teaches how sweet revenge is. https://www.amazon.com/Think-Big-Mak...sap_bc?ie=UTF8 Didn't you listen to his speeches? Here's an excerpt from one:

Of course, if you hit someone back five times harder you have escalated the conflict not gotten even. But, logic is not Trump's strong suit. Jesus taught us to "turn the other cheek" a policy for sissies and losers according to Trump. Not that you're in any danger of following Jesus.

Speak hands!

Logically we cannot take a line of appeasement to the terrorists. If you justify their actions as a response to previous injustice then this feud will go on forever. Either everyone comes to a table to reconcile or else you have to defeat them on the battlefield. It is not possible to negotiate with them because their demands are so far removed from any reasonable request.

Now I appreciate what I think I see in Trump's strategy (it is very difficult to discern, I will give you that). Essentially he has authorized the military, the professionals, to do all that they can to annihilate ISIS within the bounds of UN laws.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All politicians have failed us. They are all crooks and liars. You need to talk to the Clinton Foundation about those rich rulers, not me.

I made a comment about the US being the poorest nation, and now I get your lecture about "blaming only liberals." What do I need republican disclaimers in my signature line?

The time will come when we won't be able to even pay the interest payments. I thought you were an accountant. Don't you know how money works? We can't just keep borrowing to even pay the interest.

BTW, Reagan's military toys ended the cold war. They made us safer. They gave lots of jobs to American scientists and engineers rather than illegal aliens. Why is it that these wealthy Mooslem countries like the Emirates don't have to take in any Syrian refugees? I thought they were all "brothers." They got black gold flowing out of the ground -- plenty for everybody.

I was not lecturing you about who you blame. But nothing much has changed. I prefer the overall economic policies of the conservatives, but somehow there is always something more to spend money on, no matter which side you are on.

I am at that point where I can start to be like my aunt who just thinks the whole world is under the control of the people with the black helicopters and it would be better to just die today than have to live with any of it.

Or I can point at the problem and ask what could be the solution. And when the push back is "It's so big we just can't do anything about it" (not talking about you) then it is evident that we need to change our thinking from fixing everything to fixing something while trying to at least keep a hold on everything else. As Dr. Leo Marvin suggested to Bob "baby steps." Don't either cow at the existence of $20T or open your mouth and demand to eat it all in one bite.

I know that a nearly endless war in Iraq followed by ISIS is a drain. But there are segments that would jump at the chance to keep us all so worked up over ISIS that we keep pumping all that money that could go to us in the U.S. and instead is being pumped like New year's fireworks into the deserts of the Middle East.

Yeah, if we didn't have ISIS, then someone would figure out how to raise the poverty level and pump it all into an ever growing welfare plantation.

ZNP doesn't like slaves. But the existing welfare system creates a lot of slaves. Slaves to those who will give them money for nothing (except votes — and the chicks aren't even free).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I was not lecturing you about who you blame. But nothing much has changed. I prefer the overall economic policies of the conservatives, but somehow there is always something more to spend money on, no matter which side you are on.

I am at that point where I can start to be like my aunt who just thinks the whole world is under the control of the people with the black helicopters and it would be better to just die today than have to live with any of it.

Or I can point at the problem and ask what could be the solution. And when the push back is "It's so big we just can't do anything about it" (not talking about you) then it is evident that we need to change our thinking from fixing everything to fixing something while trying to at least keep a hold on everything else. As Dr. Leo Marvin suggested to Bob "baby steps." Don't either cow at the existence of $20T or open your mouth and demand to eat it all in one bite.

I know that a nearly endless war in Iraq followed by ISIS is a drain. But there are segments that would jump at the chance to keep us all so worked up over ISIS that we keep pumping all that money that could go to us in the U.S. and instead is being pumped like New year's fireworks into the deserts of the Middle East.

Yeah, if we didn't have ISIS, then someone would figure out how to raise the poverty level and pump it all into an ever growing welfare plantation.

ZNP doesn't like slaves. But the existing welfare system creates a lot of slaves. Slaves to those who will give them money for nothing (except votes — and the chicks aren't even free).

OK. Sounds like you made all my points better than I could.

Actually I liked Dubya as a person, yet some of his policies were naive and in the long run created more problems than they solved.

But I know people like your aunt. And they are not kooks. And btw a few years ago the military did a few black helicopter "exercises" in my town. And there's nothing you can do about it.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Never read any of Trump's books. Never will. I too have lots of complaints about his character.

But you have given up on the faith in the word of God, and you will lecture me on following Jesus? According to what, how much Jesus loves terrorists?

Your over-generalized and intolerant identity politics are getting so old -- casting all of Trump's sins and snafus upon any and all Americans who have found him preferable to crooked Hillary.

Should I do the same and continually slander you for all of Bill and Hillary's crimes and failures? Can't you distinguish the two? Aren't you a grown man? I expect more from you than from all the campus snowflakes.

Can't you at least show an ounce of Christian charity? Today is the remembrance of the Last Supper when the New Covenant was enacted.

Thank you for your care and concern. But, your attitude toward people is such that I have little or no respect for you or what you think about God or Jesus. Who or what do you imagine that you are that you can counsel me on Christian charity?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Thank you for your care and concern. But, your attitude toward people is such that I have little or no respect for you or what you think about God or Jesus. Who or what do you imagine that you are that you can counsel me on Christian charity?

Christian charity? The charity that "vaunteth not itself, and is not puffed up"? Death's ambassador to us teaches us not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Christian charity? The charity that "vaunteth not itself, and is not puffed up"? Death's ambassador to us teaches us not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to.

Thank you.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They will be forced to in much the same way that the Roman Empire collapsed.

Ever note how many of the nations of the world in the past 100 years nationalized everything and dismissed much of their foreign debt?

I would never propose such an action, but at the same time, there is little chance that there would be any serious effort to force our hand with such an option at our disposal. And not much chance that they could force anything.

Would that likely define a new reality here at home? Surely it would. And likely the end of some of our favorite "rights."

And it would hurt.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Ever note how many of the nations of the world in the past 100 years nationalized everything and dismissed much of their foreign debt?

I would never propose such an action, but at the same time, there is little chance that there would be any serious effort to force our hand with such an option at our disposal. And not much chance that they could force anything.

Would that likely define a new reality here at home? Surely it would. And likely the end of some of our favorite "rights."

And it would hurt.

I heard recently that the total amount of 401K's closely matches the US debt. Some suspect that theft may come some time soon. The American dollar has exceeded the life span of any other currency. History and our debt tell us that its end might also come soon. Should we reach the end of this current super credit cycle, several trillion dollars will not be adequate to bail us out.

Government will never allow some chaos to pass without bringing an end to some of our favorite "rights." They are also known to create chaos for just that purpose. The time will come when our Bill of Rights are history. We can already see that with the serious erosion of 1st, 2nd, and 4th amends. Many liberal Univs. have already in effect banned the 1st amend. Whole cities have banned the 2nd amend. Snowden/Assange have informed us that the 4th amend. is history.

Like I posted yesterday, Sweden has already banned guns, and now some there are proposing that all vehicles be banned because they can be used as weapons. What's next? Rope, Lead Pipe, Knife, Wrench, Candlestick, and a Revolver? One day Snowflakes will ban the game of CLUE because it's so dangerous.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Christian charity? The charity that "vaunteth not itself, and is not puffed up"? Death's ambassador to us teaches us not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to.

Wow! That's penetrating! But it kind of reminds me of "He who smelt it dealt it." I don't know why.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why is it that these wealthy Mooslem countries like the Emirates don't have to take in any Syrian refugees? I thought they were all "brothers." They got black gold flowing out of the ground -- plenty for everybody.

I think the reason why is because they are humans. Not so much because they are "Moooooooooslems."

I liken it to the Hummingbirds. I sometimes sit and watch them. They spend more time fighting over the sugar water than they do eating it.

All this religion crap we see all around the world, and I mean all of them, the whole kit and kaboodle, are products of human development. This is where we have evolved to. If you are looking for reasons to be critical of evolution, you've got one : RELIGION!.

That's why I don't go for singling people out, as if they are more flawed than the rest, and are the source of all our problems ; like blaming it all on liberals, or conservatives.

By doing so all we are doing is "expecting more of us," expecting more perhaps than humans are able to deliver. That enables us to live in denial that, we are only human.

Maybe we'll outgrow it someday. Pinker, in his book, The Better Angels of our Nature, certainly proves we're headed that way.

Let's not despair. Humans are a work in progress. Maybe one day we'll outgrow are religions, and partisanships.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I think the reason why is because they are humans. Not so much because they are "Moooooooooslems."

I liken it to the Hummingbirds. I sometimes sit and watch them. They spend more time fighting over the sugar water than they do eating it.

All this religion crap we see all around the world, and I mean all of them, the whole kit and kaboodle, are products of human development. This is where we have evolved to. If you are looking for reasons to be critical of evolution, you've got one : RELIGION!.

That's why I don't go for singling people out, as if they are more flawed than the rest, and are the source of all our problems ; like blaming it all on liberals, or conservatives.

By doing so all we are doing is "expecting more of us," expecting more perhaps than humans are able to deliver. That enables us to live in denial that, we are only human.

Maybe we'll outgrow it someday. Pinker, in his book, The Better Angels of our Nature, certainly proves we're headed that way.

Let's not despair. Humans are a work in progress. Maybe one day we'll outgrow are religions, and partisanships.

Whew! You got all that from failed immigration policies?

But back to my comment. Emirates and other MidEast countries can reject their Mohammedan "brothers" because they are "human," but if the USA does it, then we must be xenophobic, racist, insufficiently evolved, inadequately developed, crazed religionists, mean-spirited, evil, fascist, fundamentalists, and downright hypocritical Christians. Just like Trump!

Oh ... now I get it! Thanks for splainin it so clearly!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Wow! That's penetrating! But it kind of reminds me of "He who smelt it dealt it." I don't know why.

Upon such sacrifices the priests throw incense. Now you know why.

[OBW]

I really don't want to get into a speculative debate about an apocalypse that has nothing to do with Christ. But the following comment you made got me wondering.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The American dollar has exceeded the life span of any other currency.

Exceeded the lifespan of any other currency? Are you sure? Not even the British pound?

But is the issue really the lifespan of the currency, but the lifespan of the government that issues the currency? Even there the Brits have us beat by at least a little, no matter how you dice it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I really don't want to get into a speculative debate about an apocalypse that has nothing to do with Christ. But the following comment you made got me wondering.
Exceeded the lifespan of any other currency? Are you sure? Not even the British pound?

But is the issue really the lifespan of the currency, but the lifespan of the government that issues the currency? Even there the Brits have us beat by at least a little, no matter how you dice it.

That's what I read. I hope it was fake news.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

“The assessment of the Department of Defense is that the strike resulted in the damage or destruction of fuel and ammunition sites, air defense capabilities, and 20 percent of Syria’s operational aircraft,” Mattis said in a statement. NY Post, April 10, 2017

Defense analysts IHS Jane's estimate the Syrian airforce has about 262 strike aircraft, although the company admits this may be an imperfect number due to the ongoing war. CNN Tue April 11, 2017

Owning 262 strike aircraft is not equal to having 262 "operational" strike aircraft.

The question then becomes how many of the 262 are operational. Unless you have a better source than Janes or the US defense department, I'll stick with the existing estimate.

See here:

https://russianmilitaryanalysis.word...rief-analysis/

9 aircraft destroyed.

Pentagon claimed 20, but so far we can only count 9, then subsequently in a recent press release the Pentagon changed the story to 20% of Syrian air power destroyed.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Our current debt is equivalent to a person with a take home pay of $7,000 a month needing to pay $3,000 a month to pay off the debt. This is still doable as long as we don't want to live a lifestyle of someone making 120k, but are willing to live like someone making half that.

Bankruptcy is how the rich get rich, they buy assets at fire sale prices and then sell them at inflated prices at the height of the speculative bubble.

Government debt is not like personal debt, governments can create money. Government debt never has to be paid off unless the government chooses to. Basically this sort of comparison is a scare tactic used by governments to make unpopular decisions seem reasonable. e.g. "we must cancel this social program to save money because the government is in debt, otherwise future generations won't have a good standard of living etc etc" Another scare tactic is when the media says that America is somehow enslaved to foreign countries because they own them money. What the government owes overseas countries is nothing compared to what the government owes itself. See here:

https://econproph.com/2011/07/14/pri...vernment-debt/

https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-...l-debt-3306124

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Government debt is not like personal debt, governments can create money. Government debt never has to be paid off unless the government chooses to. Basically this sort of comparison is a scare tactic used by governments to make unpopular decisions seem reasonable. e.g. "we must cancel this social program to save money because the government is in debt, otherwise future generations won't have a good standard of living etc etc" Another scare tactic is when the media says that America is somehow enslaved to foreign countries because they own them money. What the government owes overseas countries is nothing compared to what the government owes itself. See here:

https://econproph.com/2011/07/14/pri...vernment-debt/

https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-...l-debt-3306124

Thanks for the balancing perspective Evangelical.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Government debt is not like personal debt, governments can create money. Government debt never has to be paid off unless the government chooses to. Basically this sort of comparison is a scare tactic used by governments to make unpopular decisions seem reasonable. e.g. "we must cancel this social program to save money because the government is in debt, otherwise future generations won't have a good standard of living etc etc" Another scare tactic is when the media says that America is somehow enslaved to foreign countries because they own them money. What the government owes overseas countries is nothing compared to what the government owes itself. See here:

https://econproph.com/2011/07/14/pri...vernment-debt/

https://www.thebalance.com/who-owns-...l-debt-3306124

that is absurdly simplistic. Governments do not "create money". Money is equivalent to the GDP of the country.

Second, governments have gone bankrupt in the past. It is very common. The demise of every empire was similar to "bankruptcy".

Likewise, if a government runs a debt it stands to reason that someone is buying that debt and just like an individual the government will have a credit rating. If you default on your debts your credit rating will collapse and no one will buy your debt.

For the US to survive we are living on debt, therefore on a daily basis we need to be able to sell debt and have someone buy it. Therefore even the slightest hint that we are not going to pay will have huge repercussions, we would have to pay a higher and higher interest.

But it gets worse. We pay our debt in US dollars. If the US dollar is devaluated we are robbing those who loaned us money and they would then stop buying our debt. But the value of our dollar is based on the GDP. This is why China is considered a currency manipulator, their currency is artificially low based on GDP. This is the flip side of the coin, China needs a huge trade surplus to employ everyone in the country. If their currency was properly valued their trade surplus would shrink. Hence they manipulate it.

So then, if our GDP does not keep pace with our debt our currency will be devalued, and then the only way to encourage investors to buy our debt is for us to pay much higher interest rates. You don't have to pay off the debt, but since our debt has doubled in the last 8 years while our GDP has risen anemically our currency should depreciate, and if that happens the interest we have to pay on this astronomical debt will increase.

So then why hasn't this happened? Because the baby boomers haven't retired. About 75% of the entire US debt is held by Social Security and other retirement accounts. As long as Baby boomers were working no one is drawing down on that debt. But once the baby boomers retire and want to collect Social Security that is when it will go bust. You have seen this before, lots of major corporations had retirement accounts which were great right up until the workers retired, at which point the business declares bankruptcy and says "oops, can't pay your retirement account". Not a big deal if you are 20, but pretty catastrophic if you are 71 and now need to return to the workforce. Social Security is projected to go broke by 2025. Since I do not plan on retiring that soon I will have spent my whole life paying into this and be left with 0. You can imagine how angry many will be to have their government rob them blind like that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

that is absurdly simplistic. Governments do not "create money". Money is equivalent to the GDP of the country.

Second, governments have gone bankrupt in the past. It is very common. The demise of every empire was similar to "bankruptcy".

Likewise, if a government runs a debt it stands to reason that someone is buying that debt and just like an individual the government will have a credit rating. If you default on your debts your credit rating will collapse and no one will buy your debt.

For the US to survive we are living on debt, therefore on a daily basis we need to be able to sell debt and have someone buy it. Therefore even the slightest hint that we are not going to pay will have huge repercussions, we would have to pay a higher and higher interest.

But it gets worse. We pay our debt in US dollars. If the US dollar is devaluated we are robbing those who loaned us money and they would then stop buying our debt. But the value of our dollar is based on the GDP. This is why China is considered a currency manipulator, their currency is artificially low based on GDP. This is the flip side of the coin, China needs a huge trade surplus to employ everyone in the country. If their currency was properly valued their trade surplus would shrink. Hence they manipulate it.

So then, if our GDP does not keep pace with our debt our currency will be devalued, and then the only way to encourage investors to buy our debt is for us to pay much higher interest rates. You don't have to pay off the debt, but since our debt has doubled in the last 8 years while our GDP has risen anemically our currency should depreciate, and if that happens the interest we have to pay on this astronomical debt will increase.

So then why hasn't this happened? Because the baby boomers haven't retired. About 75% of the entire US debt is held by Social Security and other retirement accounts. As long as Baby boomers were working no one is drawing down on that debt. But once the baby boomers retire and want to collect Social Security that is when it will go bust. You have seen this before, lots of major corporations had retirement accounts which were great right up until the workers retired, at which point the business declares bankruptcy and says "oops, can't pay your retirement account". Not a big deal if you are 20, but pretty catastrophic if you are 71 and now need to return to the workforce. Social Security is projected to go broke by 2025. Since I do not plan on retiring that soon I will have spent my whole life paying into this and be left with 0. You can imagine how angry many will be to have their government rob them blind like that.

Thanks for the balancing perspective ZNPaaneah.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for the balancing perspective ZNPaaneah.

I am having a harder and harder time distinguishing you from Awareness. It is like you are the Yin to his Yang.

[ZNPaaneah]

The US displays the "Mother of all Bombs" and N. Korea displays the Mother of All Canisters.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am having a harder and harder time distinguishing you from Awareness. It is like you are the Yin to his Yang.

Occasionally our words match, but the meaning does not.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for the balancing perspective ZNPaaneah.

Trump said the US cannot default on its debt:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...nts_money.html

Are you telling us that you disagree with Trump (for once) ?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Trump said the US cannot default on its debt:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...nts_money.html

Are you telling us that you disagree with Trump (for once) ?

Don't believe anything you read at slate.com

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Don't believe anything you read at slate.com

Prejudice speaks!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Prejudice speaks!

Yo zeek ... Let's let others speak.

Site That Blamed Benghazi On Internet Video Appoints Itself ‘Fake News’ Arbiter

Left-wing website Slate.com should be the final arbiter of what is or not “fake news,” according to left-wing website Slate.

The site, which itself has a questionable track record, announced the launch of a Chrome extension that will alert readers if they are reading something deemed “fake news” by Slate. The announcement comes less than a week after Slate ran a story deemed “ridiculous and false” by CNN anchor Jake Tapper.

Even CNN -- the Clinton News Network -- blasts Slate. What a joke!

Read that link above to see some other great Slate fabrications.

But liberal progressives will cling to their fake news until the left and right coastlines are completely submerged.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yo zeek ... Let's let others speak.


Even CNN -- the Clinton News Network -- blasts Slate. What a joke!

Read that link above to see some other great Slate fabrications.

But liberal progressives will cling to their fake news until the left and right coastlines are completely submerged.

Your method, that you have repeated ad nauseum here, is to try and condemn, not ideas or putative facts which would be reasonable and appropriate regardless of you own POV] but every political viewpoint, religion, and race that is not your own.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Your method, that you have repeated ad nauseum here, is to try and condemn, not ideas or putative facts which would be reasonable and appropriate regardless of you own POV] but every political viewpoint, religion, and race that is not your own.

Well I guess you can't defend Slate.Com's record of fake news and liberal bias, so you have to attack me again, which is your usual course of action in the face of truth, facts, and plain reason.

Let's face it, you are against the Christian faith and the Bible, which is why you are here on the Alt-Views forum openly criticizing it. You turned on me many years ago when I repeatedly came to the defense of the gospel of Christ.

For the last year or so you have incessantly posted your Trump hate, your liberal Obama/Clinton love, and all the accompanying fake news fabrications which you endorse. Then you condemn my pushback.

I don't condemn every religion. I do prefer the Bible, while you love to discredit it, using your hero Bart Ehrman. You obviously favor Islam and Mohammedans, which have numerous terrible and abusive practices which trouble me and have no place in modern society. It is one of the greatest ironies of the 21st century that liberals and progressive feminists would support Islamic practices in the USA.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Well I guess you can't defend Slate.Com's record of fake news and liberal bias, so you have to attack me again, which is your usual course of action in the face of truth, facts, and plain reason.

Let's face it, you are against the Christian faith and the Bible, which is why you are here on the Alt-Views forum openly criticizing it. You turned on me many years ago when I repeatedly came to the defense of the gospel of Christ.

For the last year or so you have incessantly posted your Trump hate, your liberal Obama/Clinton love, and all the accompanying fake news fabrications which you endorse. Then you condemn my pushback.

I don't condemn every religion. I do prefer the Bible, while you love to discredit it, using your hero Bart Ehrman. You obviously favor Islam and Mohammedans, which have numerous terrible and abusive practices which trouble me and have no place in modern society. It is one of the greatest ironies of the 21st century that liberals and progressive feminists would support Islamic practices in the USA.

Your dim opinions of me and my position are simply another example of your extreme prejudice. You have accused of statements I never made because you have lumped me in with a group of people you condemn. That's how you think. I don't see any cure for it. Hate on bro.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Your dim opinions of me and my position are simply another example of your extreme prejudice. You have accused of statements I never made because you have lumped me in with a group of people you condemn. That's how you think. I don't see any cure for it. Hate on bro.

It's nothing personal. My "dim" opinions are simply based on what you write.

You keep accusing me of "extreme prejudice" yet cannot rebut my facts.

It's strikes me as quite funny that I need to be "cured" of my "hate" and "extreme prejudice" for exposing fake news websites which you regularly post on this forum.

See you later.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's nothing personal. My "dim" opinions are simply based on what you write.

You keep accusing me of "extreme prejudice" yet cannot rebut my facts.

It's strikes me as quite funny that I need to be "cured" of my "hate" and "extreme prejudice" for exposing fake news websites which you regularly post on this forum.

See you later.

A lot of the opinions you have attributed to me are based on your conclusion that I'm a liberal rather than anything I have actually said. Your conclusions often don't follow logically from the "facts" you cited. Besides it's not like rebutting your facts would change your mind. That assumes that your position is based on reason, which it isn't.

Show me where I posted a fake news cite. Who told you it was fake news? Tapper finds fault with one article in Slate and you advise not to believe anything you read there. That typifies all-or-nothing, absolutistic thinking. That kind of thinking perpetuates prejudice.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

A lot of the opinions you have attributed to me are based on your conclusion that I'm a liberal rather than anything I have actually said. Your conclusions often don't follow logically from the "facts" you cited. Besides it's not like rebutting your facts would change your mind. That assumes that your position is based on reason, which it isn't.

Show me where I posted a fake news cite. Who told you it was fake news? Tapper finds fault with one article in Slate and you advise not to believe anything you read there. That typifies all-or-nothing, absolutistic thinking. That kind of thinking perpetuates prejudice.

The link I posted provided numerous examples of fake news from slate.com. How ironic that they would become the arbiter of fake news. Apparently you didn't read it. That's understandable since I usually don't read your links either.

You have often provided numerous links that were simply Trump hate and slander.

It's you who provides absolutistic thinking. You just project your bad traits on me. But being a know-it-all, you can't see yourself objectively.

Why is it, for example, that not one of your posts ever presents either the Bible or Trump positively. I posted numerous times about my concerns about Trump, but you can't hear that because I don't hate like you do. He one the election, but like the media "opposition party," you don't give him a chance.

[awareness]

Goodness Ohio and zeek! Y'all are making me want to swear off this thread for some kind of petroactive Lent.

Why is it that we're stuck being either a liberal or conservative/democrat or republican. It's funny to me ... NOT !!!. I'm registered as an independent ... I'm actually a mugwump.

I'll read Slate AND Breitbart, Huff Po AND Drudgereport. That way I learn the worst about both political parties.

Cuz I'm also a misanthrope, and realize I'm dealing with fallible humans, that can't be trusted ; don't matter what they call themselves.

Hey, I saw Clintoon, and his wagging finger. And Newt condemning him while doing the same thing.

And after I saw all the lame-stream media, even Fox news, get behind the Iraq war, I don't trust any of them any more either. By reading both sides of the political story, I've gotten pretty handy at catching both sides of the news lying.

But fake news today is flying hot and heavy, like a swarm of bees. It's making my head spin. I can't keep up.

Is that why we join a political party? cuz we can't keep up? So settling for a party just makes it easier? Then we don't have to give it much thought ... (like it's a religion, a cult)???

I don't know. I'm just a cantankerous old curmudgeon. Go on my yard and I'll take a broomstick to ya.

You guys settle down, and try to kiss and make up or something. Or at least sing Kumbaya. Can't we all just get along.? Hey, I've got an idea. It's kind of wacky and crazy. Let's give being Christians a try ... the Jesus in the gospels kind of Christian -- the real Christian -- not the Jesus in Revelation kind of Christian, which is the fake news Jesus.

Goodness! Goodness! Goodness! Even Jesus is polarized! See! I told you I can't keep up!

[ZNPaaneah]

MIT expert claims latest chemical weapons attack in Syria was staged.

(https://www.yahoo.com/news/mit-exper...100819428.html)

If this was staged by ISIS that would be very embarrassing.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

He one the election, but like the media "opposition party," you don't give him a chance.

He one big mess.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Don't believe anything you read at slate.com

I could have posted the same thing from 20 or so websites. But if you want to listen for yourself where Trump said it (it was in a CNN interview), see the video on this page:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/09/donal...nts-money.html

Trump said it, why don't you believe it? If you believe in Trump then you should believe him that the US will never have to default. I think he's right.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Trump said the US cannot default on its debt:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...nts_money.html

right now Japan has a larger debt to GDP ratio than Greece. The difference is that almost all of Japan's debt is owned by Japanese banks and is in Yen, whereas Greece owes money to other countries.

So to pay off Japan's debt they merely print more money -- hyper inflation, like the Weimar Republic.

The problem with making your money worthless is that you can't buy anything. People in their minds are a first world country without realizing they are making a 3rd world salary. Also those Japanese banks that had all of that debt and at one time were seen as being so wealthy, are losing money on a daily basis as the Yen is devalued.

So what happened to Japan, they used to be an economic powerhouse? Simple, no children. What we are seeing happening to Japan today, will hit the US in about 5-10 years when the Baby boomers want to retire.

Japan is one of the largest foreign holders of US debt. So as they go bankrupt they will likely be forced to redeem that debt, which in turn will cause us great financial stress. So it is like dominoes, as one falls, it takes two more with it, etc.

So if the US went into hyper inflation we would not be able to purchase nearly as much goods from China (our trade with them is unsustainable). So then, what happens to China which desperately needs this trade to keep their people employed and fed?

Also, if you are in hyper inflation you cannot afford to import commodities like oil and gas. In the end money cannot be simply paper and ink, it has to represent a Gross domestic product.

All those Japanese that saved their money, they will wake up and realize they have been robbed. Just like all those Americans paying into Social Security will one day realize they have been robbed.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

MIT expert claims latest chemical weapons attack in Syria was staged.

(https://www.yahoo.com/news/mit-exper...100819428.html)

If this was staged by ISIS that would be very embarrassing.

All this story does for us is just confuse us. This MIT "expert," Theodore Postol, also concluded that Assad didn't gas 'em back in 2013. He's known for being critical of the U.S. gov.

What I find interesting is the ones that's presenting this news on the web found by google. Free Republic saw fit to publish it. Infowars too. And The Libertarian Republic. Plus Christian sites.

Yahoo published it. But opens with the Pentagon's official position on it ; that Assad did it. (Watch it. It sounds like a 1984 soundbite, with pomp and nationalistic music, and military type's standing at attention).

Who to believe? Of course after the fact of 59 missiles, the gov is going to publish that they known for certain Assad did it. So how does Theodore Postol know different? Fake news?

And let's not forget that Putin claimed another gas attack will happen, staged by the U.S., to justify bombing the Syrian capital. So we got Putin and Theodore Postol agreeing. ??? Will the real fake news please stand up?

How can we know what's really going on? This might be like the book 1984, where war is propaganda to keep the people loyal to Ingsoc. For all we know this could be Newspeak. For that matter the war on terror may be Newspeak ; it's a perpetual never ending war, just like in 1984.

All we need now, to put all this together is for a high level conspiracy theorist to join AltVs. Then perchance we can be certain about our certainty. God knows we need that precious certitude. How else are we ever gonna be able to live in denial? Denial is precious too ... like the Easter bunny. And necessary to get thru life. haha

[awareness]

So Much Trouble in the World - Bob Marley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAFbYTvXXyY

[Evangelical]

If we examine the facts we can see that the US was wrong to strike Syria.

1. No approval by the UN. It was an act of war against a sovereign state. Syria has never invited the US to involve itself in its affairs. If any other country did it, it would be a declaration of war. Hypocrisy and double standards is one reason why many countries are questioning the legitimacy of the action.

2. No proof it was the Syrian government before the strike, or after..

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If we examine the facts we can see that the US was wrong to strike Syria.

1. No approval by the UN. It was an act of war against a sovereign state. Syria has never invited the US to involve itself in its affairs. If any other country did it, it would be a declaration of war. Hypocrisy and double standards is one reason why many c

2. No proof it was the Syrian government before the strike, or after..

But supporters of Trump, in the news and otherwise, say, that Assad using chemicals weapons is a clear and present danger to America's homeland.

Sounds like what Dubya said about Iraq.

And talking about Iraq, Trump explained in an interview that he sent 59 missiles to Iraq, while he and Xi were eating the most wonderful chocolate cake you've ever seen.

There was no purpose in the 59 missiles, as can be seen now, except they made Trump great again, after his health care reform failure.

So who knows what he's gonna do if his tax reform fails. He'll prolly preemptively strike North Korea, with 59 nukes, to look great again.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

But supporters of Trump, in the news and otherwise, say, that Assad using chemicals weapons is a clear and present danger to America's homeland.

Sounds like what Dubya said about Iraq.

And talking about Iraq, Trump explained in an interview that he sent 59 missiles to Iraq, while he and Xi were eating the most wonderful chocolate cake you've ever seen.

There was no purpose in the 59 missiles, as can be seen now, except they made Trump great again, after his health care reform failure.

So who knows what he's gonna do if his tax reform fails. He'll prolly preemptively strike North Korea with 59 nukes.

To my knowledge, North Korea is the only country which has threatened America directly, and with nukes too. Nothing has really been done about that until now. Yet most effort is spent in the middle east. Stupid policy.

I believe Trump is doing the right thing on North Korea, even if he nukes it. The sooner he strikes the better because if and when they do get an ICBM with nukes, they will use it. That is what defectors have said. Why? Because America killed off 20% of the population, napalm etc, nasty stuff. They have not forgotten. If given the chance, I am sure they would want to pay America back in kind - any one of the major cities would balance the scales in terms of civilian deaths I would think. Ironically, back then it was America threatening North Korea and China with nuclear war. Japan did nasty things to Korea as well during WW2, so NK would have no problem sending a nuke to Tokyo, for example. While the rest of the world has moved on, they are still living in the 1950's post WW2 mindset, where carpet bombing entire populations with napalm and threatening (and even carrying out) a nuclear strike is acceptable. Man for man I'd say a North Korean is tougher than South Koreans or Americans, so they need to be prepared for that too. So I think Trump should take NK out as soon as possible, and not mess about in Syria.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

T
I believe Trump is doing the right thing on North Korea

Well maybe. Maybe not. With this statement on Fox and Friends :

“They’ve been talking with this gentleman for a long time. You read Clinton’s book, he said, ‘Oh, we made such a great peace deal,’ and it was a joke.

You look at different things over the years with President Obama. Everybody has been outplayed, they’ve all been outplayed by this gentleman and we’ll see what happens. But I just don’t telegraph my moves.”

He sure looks like he knows nothing about NK leadership.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

All this story does for us is just confuse us. This MIT "expert," Theodore Postol, also concluded that Assad didn't gas 'em back in 2013. He's known for being critical of the U.S. gov.

What I find interesting is the ones that's presenting this news on the web found by google. Free Republic saw fit to publish it. Infowars too. And The Libertarian Republic. Plus Christian sites.

Yahoo published it. But opens with the Pentagon's official position on it ; that Assad did it. (Watch it. It sounds like a 1984 soundbite, with pomp and nationalistic music, and military type's standing at attention).

Who to believe? Of course after the fact of 59 missiles, the gov is going to publish that they known for certain Assad did it. So how does Theodore Postol know different? Fake news?

And let's not forget that Putin claimed another gas attack will happen, staged by the U.S., to justify bombing the Syrian capital. So we got Putin and Theodore Postol agreeing. ??? Will the real fake news please stand up?

How can we know what's really going on? This might be like the book 1984, where war is propaganda to keep the people loyal to Ingsoc. For all we know this could be Newspeak. For that matter the war on terror may be Newspeak ; it's a perpetual never ending war, just like in 1984.

All we need now, to put all this together is for a high level conspiracy theorist to join AltVs. Then perchance we can be certain about our certainty. God knows we need that precious certitude. How else are we ever gonna be able to live in denial? Denial is precious too ... like the Easter bunny. And necessary to get thru life. haha

Yes, i agree, this confuses the issue. I was under the impression the US had video evidence that the bombs were dropped by Syrian Air force planes.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

If we examine the facts we can see that the US was wrong to strike Syria.

1. No approval by the UN. It was an act of war against a sovereign state. Syria has never invited the US to involve itself in its affairs. If any other country did it, it would be a declaration of war. Hypocrisy and double standards is one reason why many countries are questioning the legitimacy of the action.

2. No proof it was the Syrian government before the strike, or after..

1. If the UN didn't approve why did they applaud? The UN needs the US to take the lead. Since Russia is on the Security conference and can reject any strike it is obvious that Russia can hold the entire UN hostage.

2. According to the US they did have proof.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

But supporters of Trump, in the news and otherwise, say, that Assad using chemicals weapons is a clear and present danger to America's homeland.

Sounds like what Dubya said about Iraq.

And talking about Iraq, Trump explained in an interview that he sent 59 missiles to Iraq, while he and Xi were eating the most wonderful chocolate cake you've ever seen.

There was no purpose in the 59 missiles, as can be seen now, except they made Trump great again, after his health care reform failure.

So who knows what he's gonna do if his tax reform fails. He'll prolly preemptively strike North Korea, with 59 nukes, to look great again.

That was hilarious. Imagine you are sitting peacefully in Iraq watching the news when you hear the President of the US claim he just sent 59 tomahawks to bomb you?! What did we do?! 9/11 all over again.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To my knowledge, North Korea is the only country which has threatened America directly, and with nukes too. Nothing has really been done about that until now. Yet most effort is spent in the middle east. Stupid policy.

I believe Trump is doing the right thing on North Korea, even if he nukes it...

Anyone can bomb the country. Can he do that without provoking China to war? What happens to NK afterwards, is the current leadership still in place? Is there any way to prevent a catastrophic war with South Korea? If not who installs the new leadership, US or China? NK is a waste case, how do you keep them from all starving to death? How does this brain washed country respond to their "dear leader" being forcibly removed?

Japan is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, China cannot afford a drop in exports, NK is on the verge of starvation, what happens when you add to this mix a South Korea in a catastrophic war?

[Evangelical]

It has been revealed that the "Armada" which was supposedly sailing towards North Korea has not even left. They were heading in the opposite direction.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/18/po...ump/index.html

It was fake news, propagated by the government. Spicer answered questions about it as if it was a certainty. This fake news seems to have been sourced to the same person who erroneously claimed that 20% of Syria's airforce was destroyed.

This is really a silly thing to do because NK could have launched a preemptive attack in this past week and the American forces were not even there yet!

The white house has yet again shown its incompetence in getting its facts wrong and shows a breakdown in communication between the decision makers in the white house and the naval commanders. If they cannot get even simple things like this correct how can they manage the country.

It turns out that Trump has been misguiding the public. This "show of force" is a routine deployment in the Pacific anyway, there is no great "Armada" that has been constructed for the purpose of going to North Korea.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Anyone can bomb the country. Can he do that without provoking China to war? What happens to NK afterwards, is the current leadership still in place? Is there any way to prevent a catastrophic war with South Korea? If not who installs the new leadership, US or China? NK is a waste case, how do you keep them from all starving to death? How does this brain washed country respond to their "dear leader" being forcibly removed?

Japan is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, China cannot afford a drop in exports, NK is on the verge of starvation, what happens when you add to this mix a South Korea in a catastrophic war?

All they really need to do is replace the NK leadership with ones who will not pursue nuclear revenge against the Americans. How they do that is the question.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. If the UN didn't approve why did they applaud? The UN needs the US to take the lead. Since Russia is on the Security conference and can reject any strike it is obvious that Russia can hold the entire UN hostage.

2. According to the US they did have proof.

1. That's like a rapist saying "I raped her and she seemed to enjoy it afterwards". The problem is whether they enjoyed it or not, but that they were not asked first.

2. If they had proof, they did not show it. There was no need to strike suddenly and without warning. They should have got the consensus from the UN first before taking action. It seems like the US expects everyone to abide by international law but themselves. Trump had no authority under international law to attack Syria.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness Ohio and zeek! Y'all are making me want to swear off this thread for some kind of petroactive Lent.

Why is it that we're stuck being either a liberal or conservative/democrat or republican. It's funny to me ... NOT !!!. I'm registered as an independent ... I'm actually a mugwump.

I'll read Slate AND Breitbart, Huff Po AND Drudgereport. That way I learn the worst about both political parties.

Cuz I'm also a misanthrope, and realize I'm dealing with fallible humans, that can't be trusted ; don't matter what they call themselves.

Hey, I saw Clintoon, and his wagging finger. And Newt condemning him while doing the same thing.

And after I saw all the lame-stream media, even Fox news, get behind the Iraq war, I don't trust any of them any more either. By reading both sides of the political story, I've gotten pretty handy at catching both sides of the news lying.

But fake news today is flying hot and heavy, like a swarm of bees. It's making my head spin. I can't keep up.

Is that why we join a political party? cuz we can't keep up? So settling for a party just makes it easier? Then we don't have to give it much thought ... (like it's a religion, a cult)???

I don't know. I'm just a cantankerous old curmudgeon. Go on my yard and I'll take a broomstick to ya.

You guys settle down, and try to kiss and make up or something. Or at least sing Kumbaya. Can't we all just get along.? Hey, I've got an idea. It's kind of wacky and crazy. Let's give being Christians a try ... the Jesus in the gospels kind of Christian -- the real Christian -- not the Jesus in Revelation kind of Christian, which is the fake news Jesus.

Goodness! Goodness! Goodness! Even Jesus is polarized! See! I told you I can't keep up!

I prayed for Ohio today.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness Ohio and zeek! Y'all are making me want to swear off this thread for some kind of petroactive Lent.

Why is it that we're stuck being either a liberal or conservative/democrat or republican. It's funny to me ... NOT !!!. I'm registered as an independent ... I'm actually a mugwump.

I'll read Slate AND Breitbart, Huff Po AND Drudgereport. That way I learn the worst about both political parties.

Cuz I'm also a misanthrope, and realize I'm dealing with fallible humans, that can't be trusted ; don't matter what they call themselves.

Hey, I saw Clintoon, and his wagging finger. And Newt condemning him while doing the same thing.

And after I saw all the lame-stream media, even Fox news, get behind the Iraq war, I don't trust any of them any more either. By reading both sides of the political story, I've gotten pretty handy at catching both sides of the news lying.

But fake news today is flying hot and heavy, like a swarm of bees. It's making my head spin. I can't keep up.

Is that why we join a political party? cuz we can't keep up? So settling for a party just makes it easier? Then we don't have to give it much thought ... (like it's a religion, a cult)???

I don't know. I'm just a cantankerous old curmudgeon. Go on my yard and I'll take a broomstick to ya.

You guys settle down, and try to kiss and make up or something. Or at least sing Kumbaya. Can't we all just get along.? Hey, I've got an idea. It's kind of wacky and crazy. Let's give being Christians a try ... the Jesus in the gospels kind of Christian -- the real Christian -- not the Jesus in Revelation kind of Christian, which is the fake news Jesus.

Goodness! Goodness! Goodness! Even Jesus is polarized! See! I told you I can't keep up!

Whoa bro!

Take a chill pill! Two aspirins and get a good night sleep.

Snowflakes still have heartburn over last November 8. Like it's the end of the world. Armageddon or something worse.

As sub-forum moderator, perhaps you could pray-read (or just read silently, or even hum as you meditate to your higher power) the "Serenity Prayer." You don't have to worry that it's some corrupted 3rd century manuscript of a pseudo-gospel writer. It doesn't even mention the name of Jesus, so your Southern Baptist heritage won't resurface with a vengeance. It's even Tatted on some athlete's arms, so it can't be too dangerous.

Just a prayer to an un-named God for wisdom, serenity, and courage to face today's news.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Whoa bro!

Take a chill pill! Two aspirins and get a good night sleep.

Snowflakes still have heartburn over last November 8. Like it's the end of the world. Armageddon or something worse.

As sub-forum moderator, perhaps you could pray-read (or just read silently, or even hum as you meditate to your higher power) the "Serenity Prayer." You don't have to worry that it's some corrupted 3rd century manuscript of a pseudo-gospel writer. It doesn't even mention the name of Jesus, so your Southern Baptist heritage won't resurface with a vengeance. It's even Tatted on some athlete's arms, so it can't be too dangerous.

Just a prayer to an un-named God for wisdom, serenity, and courage to face today's news.

Why is everyone getting upset about the current administration? The world has been roaring down a path that is unsustainable. We have long past the point of any pretense that we would stop this destructive path. Anyone who is paying the slightest bit of attention can see that just like the sand was running out for Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, the ice is melting for us. With it we are getting more weird and strange diseases (Zika), infrastructure is crumbling (lead in water) 3rd world countries are collapsing (refugee crisis), pollution is becoming unbearable (China) and the UN is bursting at the seams (Syria, N. Korea and Iran). There are only two plausible outcomes:

1. WWIII is not started during this administration, but climate change continues at an exponential rate, 3rd world collapse continues with it, and instead of any assistance to the problem we batten down the hatches and build a yuuge wall.

or

2. WWIII is started.

But either way Armageddon is the destination, you were told this 2,000 years ago, you were warned the world is a "condemned house" and that you need to leave.

Like Ohio shared, every reference to money in the NT says to "give it to the poor".

You would be idiotic to think that "investments" can be smart.

1. Trump said the US cannot go broke because we print the money. That means his solution is hyper inflation which means any investments you have ultimately become worthless. I realize this could kick off thousands of words about the value of commodities, but remember if that is your path make sure you have a gang of 20+ mad maxes with machine guns attached to the rear of jeeps with jerry cans of gas to make it through the apocalypse.

2. Regardless of how "smart" your investments are that is on the most temporary of temporary scales. In light of eternity the best investment is to give the money to the poor. There it is stored where rust, moths and hyper inflation cannot get it, just as Jesus said.

If you are not worried about your investments and you are not worried about Armageddon, then you don't need to hyperventilate about the administration, and you can rest in peace.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why is everyone getting upset about the current administration? The world has been roaring down a path that is unsustainable. We have long past the point of any pretense that we would stop this destructive path. Anyone who is paying the slightest bit of attention can see that just like the sand was running out for Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, the ice is melting for us. With it we are getting more weird and strange diseases (Zika), infrastructure is crumbling (lead in water) 3rd world countries are collapsing (refugee crisis), pollution is becoming unbearable (China) and the UN is bursting at the seams (Syria, N. Korea and Iran). There are only two plausible outcomes:

1. WWIII is not started during this administration, but climate change continues at an exponential rate, 3rd world collapse continues with it, and instead of any assistance to the problem we batten down the hatches and build a yuuge wall.

or

2. WWIII is started.

But either way Armageddon is the destination, you were told this 2,000 years ago, you were warned the world is a "condemned house" and that you need to leave.

Like Ohio shared, every reference to money in the NT says to "give it to the poor".

You would be idiotic to think that "investments" can be smart.

1. Trump said the US cannot go broke because we print the money. That means his solution is hyper inflation which means any investments you have ultimately become worthless. I realize this could kick off thousands of words about the value of commodities, but remember if that is your path make sure you have a gang of 20+ mad maxes with machine guns attached to the rear of jeeps with jerry cans of gas to make it through the apocalypse.

2. Regardless of how "smart" your investments are that is on the most temporary of temporary scales. In light of eternity the best investment is to give the money to the poor. There it is stored where rust, moths and hyper inflation cannot get it, just as Jesus said.

If you are not worried about your investments and you are not worried about Armageddon, then you don't need to hyperventilate about the administration, and you can rest in peace.

You addressed a few of the crises we face today, esp. money, but acc. to prophecy, the center of it all is the little nation of Israel. All of my progressive friends are in an uproar over Trump's unilateral action in Syria, but who gave a hoot about the Resolution against Israel two days before Christmas? in an act of betrayal that makes Benedict Arnold look like part of the J.V. team? One day soon that very resolution will be used to justify a multilateral attack on Israel resulting in Armageddon.

Evangelical attacked Trump for punishing Syria over the use of WMD's without UN approval. Is he serious? China, France, UK, and Russia all agreed to the security council condemnation of Israel for building houses, yet where oh where was the slightest of outrage around the UN at the video of children gassed by Assad?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You addressed a few of the crises we face today, esp. money, but acc. to prophecy, the center of it all is the little nation of Israel. All of my progressive friends are in an uproar over Trump's unilateral action in Syria, but who gave a hoot about the Resolution against Israel two days before Christmas? in an act of betrayal that makes Benedict Arnold look like part of the J.V. team? One day soon that very resolution will be used to justify a multilateral attack on Israel resulting in Armageddon.

Evangelical attacked Trump for punishing Syria over the use of WMD's without UN approval. Is he serious? China, France, UK, and Russia all agreed to the security council condemnation of Israel for building houses, yet where oh where was the slightest of outrage around the UN at the video of children gassed by Assad?

The UN has been bound up at the river Euphrates since the first Iraq war. Turkey can make that river dry up with the damn they built.

Yes the focus is on the Middle East. Many forget that the boundary of Israel given in the OT is not what we now recognize, but rather goes from the Euphrates to the Mediterranean. It was supposed to be the entire Middle East.

One issue we didn't raise is Peak Oil. The only reason we haven't "noticed" this event is because of fracking and oil sand, two of the most destructive environmental practices ever dreamed up. We are very quickly turning the world into a hell scape so that we can continue to pretend that everything will continue as it is.

[zeek]

Where has Bill O'Reilly gone? Like gas passing. Where has Bill O'Reilly gone? Short time ago. Where has Bill O'Reilly gone? Advertisers left him every one. When will he ever learn? When will he ever learn?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Where has Bill O'Reilly gone? Like gas passing. Where has Bill O'Reilly gone? Short time ago. Where has Bill O'Reilly gone? Advertisers left him every one. When will he ever learn? When will he ever learn?

Good riddance to your buddy Bill.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Good riddance to your buddy Bill.

Under the bus for Bro. Bill? Ouch! Kind of harsh there bro. He's been Numero Uno water carrier for the Murdoch family for years i.e. the top purveyor of the Republican Talking Points Machine that is Fox [so-called] News. I would have thought that he would be one of your favs? A conservative's conservative.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Under the bus for Bro. Bill? Ouch! Kind of harsh there bro. He's been Numero Uno water carrier for the Murdoch family for years i.e. the top purveyor of the Republican Talking Points Machine that is Fox [so-called] News. I would have thought that he would be one of your favs? A conservative's conservative.

Not a fan of his personality cult. Never bought a thing of his. Never thought he had the best guests. Thought he was arrogant and often rude on the show. He was useful to conservatives during the Clinton era, but he and Roger used their "talents" to take advantage of the pretty girls. They got way more than they deserved.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The UN has been bound up at the river Euphrates since the first Iraq war. Turkey can make that river dry up with the damn they built.

Yes the focus is on the Middle East. Many forget that the boundary of Israel given in the OT is not what we now recognize, but rather goes from the Euphrates to the Mediterranean. It was supposed to be the entire Middle East.

One issue we didn't raise is Peak Oil. The only reason we haven't "noticed" this event is because of fracking and oil sand, two of the most destructive environmental practices ever dreamed up. We are very quickly turning the world into a hell scape so that we can continue to pretend that everything will continue as it is.

Fracking is safer than drilling off shore. What is Peak oil?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Fracking is safer than drilling off shore. What is Peak oil?

Fracking cannot possibly be controlled. You are setting off explosives underground to break up the formations. It is virtually guaranteed that this will cause natural gas and underground aquifers to mix which in turn is creating tap water that burns. What is more appropriate as a "hell scape" than watching your tap water in your sink catch fire?

Peak oil is a fantastically scary topic. You can google it to get a good idea. But just to give you the quick summary for over 100 years we have been drilling, refining and developing oil reserves. Worldwide consumption has been growing non stop during all of this time and production has been fighting to keep up with the consumption. However, just like any oil reserve pumped out of the ground the production can increase right up until half of the oil is extracted (that can be extracted), from that point on the production from that reservoir will decline. This was true of Texas oil fields, Ohio oil fields, US oil fields as a whole, Saudi Arabian fields, etc. What is interesting is that this takes place when you have removed 1/3 of the reserves. This is because you can't get the last third, oil is sticky and it sticks to all those little sand grains in the ground, so that third remains in the ground. Now you might think that if it took us 100 years to remove the first 1/3 of worldwide oil then we still have another 100 years of oil left. But what peak oil points out is once you hit that 1/3 mark worldwide production will drop, as it drops production cannot keep up with demand. That will be the point where the 3rd world begins to go up in flames. You will see refugee crisis, wars, terrorists, pretty much what we have been seeing since 2001 (peak oil was probably 2008, it is hard to calculate precisely because OPEC hides all of their records).

What we also see at that point is much more destructive methods at getting the oil. Things like the horror of offshore oil drilling (often the oil spills out at the ocean bottom and is not readily apparent. You see tar balls wash up on the beach but don't see the spill), oil sand development and fracking. This is the main motivation to do away with the EPA, the only way we go another 8 years without a serious spike in oil costs is to stop being so careful about poisoning the water, land and sea. But each year it gets worse. Hence Russia viewing Syria and Iran as critical allies. China was responsible for the genocide in Sudan, because that is there foothold onto oil reserves in the area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fracking cannot possibly be controlled. You are setting off explosives underground to break up the formations. It is virtually guaranteed that this will cause natural gas and underground aquifers to mix which in turn is creating tap water that burns. What is more appropriate as a "hell scape" than watching your tap water in your sink catch fire?

As an engineer, I support all sorts of energy sourcing, yet we must have inspections to prevent short-cutting. Coal, nuclear, wind, solar, fracking, oil -- all should be used with all necessary safeguards. Of course, we still will have danger. About 10 miles from my house there was an horrific fire when a natural gas pipeline broke. Nearby, the property of our reservoir water supply has at least a half dozen fracking pads. Many properties (but not mine) have been undermined by past coal extraction. On the ridges we have windmills. Had we more sunshine, more of the homes would have PE panels.

The point is that most disasters are preventable. We can no longer look at certain industries as "evil." Obama and Warren Buffet-owned railroads preferred to transport high-volatile Balkan crude via consists through major cities, rather than thru Keystone and Dakota Access pipelines which are far safer. Off shore drilling in the gulf was pushed into the dangerous Gulf depths stupidly thinking that that was ecologically safer than in the shelf nearer to shore. Then BP cut corners and cheated, but where were the inspectors?

It's a huge mistake to think that "green" politicians really are looking out for our well-being. They may have a platform to spread their "care," the media to broadcast it, and the students to protest for them, but they also got tons of money in their pockets from other beneficiaries. Remember Obama solar energy boondoggles? But, of course, Obama endorses the religion of Green, so those got little coverage.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As an engineer, I support all sorts of energy sourcing, yet we must have inspections to prevent short-cutting. Coal, nuclear, wind, solar, fracking, oil -- all should be used with all necessary safeguards. Of course, we still will have danger. About 10 miles from my house there was an horrific fire when a natural gas pipeline broke. Nearby, the property of our reservoir water supply has at least a half dozen fracking pads. Many properties (but not mine) have been undermined by past coal extraction. On the ridges we have windmills. Had we more sunshine, more of the homes would have PE panels.

The point is that most disasters are preventable. We can no longer look at certain industries as "evil." Obama and Warren Buffet-owned railroads preferred to transport high-volatile Balkan crude via consists through major cities, rather than thru Keystone and Dakota Access pipelines which are far safer. Off shore drilling in the gulf was pushed into the dangerous Gulf depths stupidly thinking that that was ecologically safer than in the shelf nearer to shore. Then BP cut corners and cheated, but where were the inspectors?

It's a huge mistake to think that "green" politicians really are looking out for our well-being. They may have a platform to spread their "care," the media to broadcast it, and the students to protest for them, but they also got tons of money in their pockets from other beneficiaries. Remember Obama solar energy boondoggles? But, of course, Obama endorses the religion of Green, so those got little coverage.

Solar energy is taking off now that the cost per watt dropped below a certain threshold. What the US government should have done was place a large order for solar, that would have helped the price come down. The Pentagon and every military base would have been an excellent place to start since during war time having their own energy source would be strategically advantageous. Also, they have made roads out of solar panels, why not cover aircraft carriers with the same? Even if it doesn't drop the cost of the ships or the electric bill to the military it is strategically advantageous and it would drop the cost to make solar panels to have a couple of very large orders placed. The time to have done this would have been during Carter's administration.

Likewise, instead of going to war for oil in 2001 (the real reason Cheney wanted us to blame Iraq for 9/11) we could have spent $1 Trillion dollars on wind turbines. If we had done that instead we would really have a chance right now to switch from fossil fuel to renewable.

That said I have not seen a single calculation where it will be in time. Apparently half of the energy consumed by a car takes place when they build it. So, replacing every gas powered car with an electric car would consume a huge amount of energy before we could switch to electric. Also, we are now looking at the whole world. When we stop buying cars in the US they are then moved to countries like Mexico and Cuba where they continue to be built. Weening ourselves off of fossil fuel is going to be a long process. And when you are on the far side of Hubert's peak it is going to be a very wild ride.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not a fan of his personality cult. Never bought a thing of his. Never thought he had the best guests. Thought he was arrogant and often rude on the show. He was useful to conservatives during the Clinton era, but he and Roger used their "talents" to take advantage of the pretty girls. They got way more than they deserved.

So you don't think it was just the feminazis that brought O'Reilly down?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

So you don't think it was just the feminazis that brought O'Reilly down?

The feminazi pussy crabber. One down, one to go.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

So you don't think it was just the feminazis that brought O'Reilly down?

I saw the lawyer explaining the lawsuit of one of those who complained. She was upset because O'Reilly called her "hysterical" saying it was a sexist remark. She then went on to give him the etymology of the word as though no one knew where the word came from. After that she was never invited back onto his show, hence her complaint.

I listened to that on CNN (I never watched O'Reilly) and felt her complaint was absurd. The idea that you can't use "hysterical" to refer to a woman because of the history of the word is, and that you would use this as some basis for a lawsuit, is in my opinion, an example of a feminazi.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I saw the lawyer explaining the lawsuit of one of those who complained. She was upset because O'Reilly called her "hysterical" saying it was a sexist remark. She then went on to give him the etymology of the word as though no one knew where the word came from. After that she was never invited back onto his show, hence her complaint.

I listened to that on CNN (I never watched O'Reilly) and felt her complaint was absurd. The idea that you can't use "hysterical" to refer to a woman because of the history of the word is, and that you would use this as some basis for a lawsuit, is in my opinion, an example of a feminazi.

Yeah you often say hysterical things right here on alt views, and you're not a woman are you, ZNP?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I saw the lawyer explaining the lawsuit of one of those who complained. She was upset because O'Reilly called her "hysterical" saying it was a sexist remark. She then went on to give him the etymology of the word as though no one knew where the word came from. After that she was never invited back onto his show, hence her complaint.

I listened to that on CNN (I never watched O'Reilly) and felt her complaint was absurd. The idea that you can't use "hysterical" to refer to a woman because of the history of the word is, and that you would use this as some basis for a lawsuit, is in my opinion, an example of a feminazi.

I/we weren't there. But if O'Reilly was referring to the medical condition, as if she was in need of manual stimulation, then maybe she's got a case. Otherwise her case was going to go nowhere.

So why the $13 mil? And why fire the guy if there weren't more than meets our eyes there?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I/we weren't there. But if O'Reilly was referring to the medical condition, as if she was in need of manual stimulation, then maybe she's got a case. Otherwise her case was going to go nowhere.

So why the $13 mil? And why fire the guy if there weren't more than meets our eyes there?

If I recall correctly the woman wasn't even suing for money, came forward today simply to add fuel to the fire. But her lawyer was describing the case so she is part of the lawsuit. From what I understand O'Reilly was a "pig" if that is the correct term. But imagine if this woman refers to a man as a "tool", talk about hypocrisy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

The feminazi pussy crabber. One down, one to go.

Hey Moda ... let's keep it clean!

[awareness]

How come these primetime players when they fail don't get punished. O'Reilly is coming away from Fox with $25 mil.[LIST]
I tell you Fox is dirty from the top down. Rupert Murdoch is a sleeze ball. How my Christian fundamentalists family members can be such fans I don't know. It's certainly not any more Christian than all the other networks ... in fact, less so.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hey Moda ... let's keep it clean!

Hey, 80% of evangelicals voted for the P grabber. It must not be sin any more.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hey, 80% of evangelicals voted for the P grabber. It must not be sin any more.

Never believe those pollsters. Haven't they been wrong the whole time?

Maybe all the SNOWFLAKES secretly voted for Trump.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

How come these primetime players when they fail don't get punished. O'Reilly is coming away from Fox with $25 mil.[LIST]
I tell you Fox is dirty from the top down. Rupert Murdoch is a sleeze ball. How my Christian fundamentalists family members can be such fans I don't know. It's certainly not any more Christian than all the other networks ... in fact, less so.

Fox is not Christian, my friend, it's just more truthful.

Apparently you just don't get it. Too bad you're still hatin' on all the Christians. Do you really spy on all your family's TV watching habits?

Bad Moda!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

So you don't think it was just the feminazis that brought O'Reilly down?

Why don't these FemiNazis get a little crazy about them Mooslam doctors who perform female genital manipulation surgery on all the young girls???

So if some braggadocio Trumpster jock talks about grabbing, that's horrible, but when officially sanctioned Mooslam doctors mutilate little girls for life, you progressive liberals all turn the other way.

Hippocrats.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Fox is not Christian, my friend, it's just more truthful.

Apparently you just don't get it. Too bad you're still hatin' on all the Christians. Do you really spy on all your family's TV watching habits?

Bad Moda!

LoL ... yer pullin my leg. You remind me of my cousin who at a dinner table of around 20 stated that Fox is 100% factual. I said to his dad sitting next to me, "To only those drinking Fox Kool-aid."

I said that cuz his dad and mom have Fox news on all day. And I didn't need to spy. They have a B&B, that I've stayed at with them several times. My sister, a proud Yellowdog Democrat, won't talk politics with them. It get's too heated. I don't have that problem with them. They know I'm a mugwump.

Everyone seems to know I'm a mugwump but you. Our maybe you consider a fence sitter a liberal. I guess you only round up, never down.

I sit on the fence because I can't stand Trump or Hillary. By comparison Bernie looks great ... but then, now, so does Dubya, and I didn't like him either.

But thanks for the laughs bro Ohio. I do like them.

[zeek]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7694316.html

Donald Trump has a “dangerous mental illness” and is not fit to lead the US, a group of psychiatrists has warned during a conference at Yale University.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7694316.html

Donald Trump has a “dangerous mental illness” and is not fit to lead the US, a group of psychiatrists has warned during a conference at Yale University.

1. What mental illnesses are not dangerous?

2. Are they saying that we have never had a narcissistic president?

3. Are they recommending a psychological test for future presidential candidates?

Think of all the good Trump is doing. As a result of his election we are now pushing for laws that all Presidential candidates have to release their tax returns and be screened for mental illness. That is just in the first 100 days. Who knows we might also get tougher nepotism laws.

One thing I thought of, every person who has access to classified material has to have security clearance as a result of a rigorous examination. Why not have Presidential candidates go through this screening process as well. The president gets the highest security clearance and yet never got screened.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why don't these FemiNazis get a little crazy about them Mooslam doctors who perform female genital manipulation surgery on all the young girls???

You sound like you've been listening to State Rep. Michele Hoitenga (R) Michigan, who used FGM to introduce a anti-Sharia bill.

Only problem is, FGM has been a practice long before Mohammed was a twinkle in Allah's eye. It's not a Moooooooooooooooooooslaaaam thing, and has nothing to do with Sharia law.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

1. What mental illnesses are not dangerous?

2. Are they saying that we have never had a narcissistic president?

3. Are they recommending a psychological test for future presidential candidates?

Think of all the good Trump is doing. As a result of his election we are now pushing for laws that all Presidential candidates have to release their tax returns and be screened for mental illness. That is just in the first 100 days. Who knows we might also get tougher nepotism laws.

One thing I thought of, every person who has access to classified material has to have security clearance as a result of a rigorous examination. Why not have Presidential candidates go through this screening process as well. The president gets the highest security clearance and yet never got screened.

But at least Trump was born in the US. How about some laws and a screening process for citizenship.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You sound like you've been listening to State Rep. Michele Hoitenga (R) Michigan, who used FGM to introduce a anti-Sharia bill.

Only problem is, FGM has been a practice long before Mohammed was a twinkle in Allah's eye. It's not a Moooooooooooooooooooslaaaam thing, and has nothing to do with Sharia law.

Sure it is. Don't you support women's rights?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

How come these primetime players when they fail don't get punished. O'Reilly is coming away from Fox with $25 mil.[LIST]
I tell you Fox is dirty from the top down. Rupert Murdoch is a sleeze ball. How my Christian fundamentalists family members can be such fans I don't know. It's certainly not any more Christian than all the other networks ... in fact, less so.

If O'Reilly were president he'd still have a job.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If O'Reilly were president he'd still have a job.

The White House is now pressing hard for money to extend the U.S.-Mexico border wall –– funding the Democrats have flatly rejected and even House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) has said should come later in the year.
In the latest move, Mick Mulvaney, Trump’s budget director, said Friday that the White House would offer to fund controversial ObamaCare subsidies in return for equal funding for the border wall. The Democrats dismissed the proposal out of hand, with the office of Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) deeming it “a complete non-starter.”

“The U.S. government is supposed to take care of its citizens and, according to the President, Mexico is supposed to pay for the wall,” Schumer spokesman Matt House said in an email. “If the administration would drop their 11th hour demand for a wall that Democrats, and a good number of Republicans oppose, Congressional leaders could quickly reach a deal.” http://thehill.com/homenews/house/33...spending-fight

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7694316.html

Donald Trump has a “dangerous mental illness” and is not fit to lead the US, a group of psychiatrists has warned during a conference at Yale University.

Republicans hit out at 'unethical' psychiatrists who claim Donald Trump has a 'dangerous mental illness'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ists-warn.html

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure it is. Don't you support women's rights?

I'm for equal rights of all. And it's easy to learn about FGM. Do a google search on it. Or start with Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female...lation#History

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The White House is now pressing hard for money to extend the U.S.-Mexico border wall –– funding the Democrats have flatly rejected and even House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) has said should come later in the year.
In the latest move, Mick Mulvaney, Trump’s budget director, said Friday that the White House would offer to fund controversial ObamaCare subsidies in return for equal funding for the border wall. The Democrats dismissed the proposal out of hand, with the office of Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) deeming it “a complete non-starter.”

“The U.S. government is supposed to take care of its citizens and, according to the President, Mexico is supposed to pay for the wall,” Schumer spokesman Matt House said in an email. “If the administration would drop their 11th hour demand for a wall that Democrats, and a good number of Republicans oppose, Congressional leaders could quickly reach a deal.” http://thehill.com/homenews/house/33...spending-fight

Trump wants $450 billion for a manned mission to Mars. If he would instead insist that the Pentagon spend $450 billion on installing solar panels, these orders would make solar power even more cost effective, it already is. It would create many very good US jobs and it would reduce our need for foreign oil (since it is reasonable for us to now move to electric vehicles). It would also be strategic by making military strikes against centralized power production less of a threat. (Russia, China, and others can cripple our power companies with computer hacks).

If this were part of the Pentagon's already huge budget, he could do this by actually decreasing the budget (eliminate the stupid manned mission to mars).

Who knows if we do this with our military China, Russia and NATO might also follow.

The next step might be to require military suppliers to also do this. A simple little move like this might get the dominoes falling on a trillion dollars worth of solar panels.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Republicans hit out at 'unethical' psychiatrists who claim Donald Trump has a 'dangerous mental illness'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ists-warn.html

The psychiatrist is unethical. If Trump was seeing a real psychiatrist there would be patient confidentiality. If a psychiatrist has "diagnosed him from afar" they should have contacted White house doctor, not the press. Or, if that didn't work, some Senate oversight committee chairman. To come "forward" to the press as "an expert" in the field yet ignore the ethical laws in place is despicable. There was no concern on the part of the psychiatrist for Trump, the man with the "illness".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Republicans hit out at 'unethical' psychiatrists who claim Donald Trump has a 'dangerous mental illness'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ists-warn.html

Its news stories like this that just widens the divide in the nation.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Its news stories like this that just widens the divide in the nation.

And the divide is already so large that the lifeline won't reach.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And the divide is already so large that the lifeline won't reach.

Likewise the divide on this forum -- needing a lifeline larger than Life.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

And the divide is already so large that the lifeline won't reach.

the divide is due to people behaving in a way that is evil, corrupt, unethical, etc.

[zeek]

The actions of Trump against science inspired thousands of Americans to march on Washington and around the country for science today. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000063

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

The actions of Trump against science inspired thousands of Americans to march on Washington and around the country for science today. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000063

There's plenty of professionals who have debunked the climate change nonsense. They are marching for nothing, just another excuse to get their boobies out in public.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The actions of Trump against science inspired thousands of Americans to march on Washington and around the country for science today. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000063

While there is evidence that the climate does change, there is no "proof" that man is the cause. That part is politically driven. I was indoctrinated with the same politically driven climate change agenda back in my college days in the 70's. If the other oldtimers would remember, back in those days, the fear of the next ice age gripped us all with fear. The emissions from fossil fuels was slowly going to freeze us into extinction, just like it did to the wooly mammoth, whose frozen body in that huge block of ice constantly was used to haunt us.

Constant fear-mongering brought to us daily by the progressively liberal community organizers on the left, who now concluded that "Trump is against science," just like all his "twisted" supporters, most of whom are those science-denying evangelical Christians who also summarily reject evolution.

For shame, for shame!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

the divide is due to people behaving in a way that is evil, corrupt, unethical, etc.

What do you mean?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What do you mean?

The issue with Clinton was not his policies, or difference in opinion. It was due to his corrupt and unethical behavior. Likewise, a doctor violating all ethical guidelines to say that Trump has a dangerous mental illness, the problem is not that Trump is narcissistic which is probably true to some extent of all presidents, but the problem is that this doctor violates standard ethical guidelines.

If the Democrats are now claiming that the Republican president is "mentally unstable" does anyone think that there will not be a "tit for tat" when a Democrat is president?

Everyone for the most part understands that there are different strategies and policies and there may not be a single right way, besides if we make a mistake we can correct it at the next election. The problem is with the corruption shown by Nixon, Clinton, Cheney, Bush, etc.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The issue with Clinton was not his policies, or difference in opinion. It was due to his corrupt and unethical behavior. Likewise, a doctor violating all ethical guidelines to say that Trump has a dangerous mental illness, the problem is not that Trump is narcissistic which is probably true to some extent of all presidents, but the problem is that this doctor violates standard ethical guidelines.

If the Democrats are now claiming that the Republican president is "mentally unstable" does anyone think that there will not be a "tit for tat" when a Democrat is president?

Everyone for the most part understands that there are different strategies and policies and there may not be a single right way, besides if we make a mistake we can correct it at the next election. The problem is with the corruption shown by Nixon, Clinton, Cheney, Bush, etc.

OK thanks

I agree, but what corruption are you referring to with Bush.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

While there is evidence that the climate does change, there is no "proof" that man is the cause. That part is politically driven. I was indoctrinated with the same politically driven climate change agenda back in my college days in the 70's. If the other old-timers would remember, back in those days, the fear of the next ice age gripped us all with fear. The emissions from fossil fuels was slowly going to freeze us into extinction, just like it did to the woolly mammoth, whose frozen body in that huge block of ice constantly was used to haunt us.
Constant fear-mongering brought to us daily by the progressively liberal community organizers on the left, who now concluded that "Trump is against science," just like all his "twisted" supporters, most of whom are those science-denying evangelical Christians who also summarily reject evolution.
For shame, for shame!

You are ignoring the greenhouse effect and the well documented evidence of human contribution to its increase. This increase in radiative forcing from human activity is attributable mainly to increased atmospheric carbon dioxide levels. According to the latest Assessment Report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, "atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide are unprecedented in at least the last 800,000 years." Their effects, together with those of other human related effects, have been detected throughout the climate system and are highly probable to have been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.

As with your denial of natural selection, your climate change denial serves your commitment to your years of ideological programming. You're not likely to change your thinking due to logical arguments or incontrovertible evidence. Just as you were trained, you fear that would jeopardize your salvation. At the base of your prejudices is sheer existential terror. What is reason or overwhelming evidence compared to that? The stupid liberals are oblivious to that and that's why you hate them. I get it, bro. No problem.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

OK thanks

I agree, but what corruption are you referring to with Bush.

Iran Contra

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Iran Contra

I thought that was Reagan's second term -- Poindexter, North, etc.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought that was Reagan's second term -- Poindexter, North, etc.

Bush was VP, but he ran the operation.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Likewise the divide on this forum -- needing a lifeline larger than Life.

Oh the great divide. Even tho we share similar histories. It's puzzling.

Until you figure that Christianity has been divided from the get-go.

You say I'm always critical of Christianity. How can I not be? How can you not be?

We're even divided on that. Something that is obvious to anyone that gives it even a cursory look, and is honest about it.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There's plenty of professionals who have debunked the climate change nonsense. They are marching for nothing, just another excuse to get their boobies out in public.

OK bro, bring on the debunking. Nevertheless Trump proposes cutting funding for much more science then climate change research. You would know that if you read the article I linked. You are opining for nothing, just another excuse to get your ignorance out in public.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

OK bro, bring on the debunking. Nevertheless Trump proposes cutting funding for much more science then climate change research. You would know that if you read the article I linked. You are opining for nothing, just another excuse to get your ignorance out in public.

Climate activism accomplishes very little. Name one thing it has accomplished. I don't see global warming reversing just because some scientists marched on the street.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Climate activism accomplishes very little. Name one thing it has accomplished. I don't see global warming reversing just because some scientists marched on the street.

Peter, Paul, and Mary got the Hudson river cleaned up. It used to catch fire, now you can swim in it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Peter, Paul, and Mary got the Hudson river cleaned up. It used to catch fire, now you can swim in it.

But the fire came from the Magic Dragon???

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

You are ignoring the greenhouse effect and the well documented evidence of human contribution to its increase. This increase in radiative forcing from human activity is attributable mainly to increased atmospheric carbon dioxide levels. According to the latest Assessment Report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, "atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous oxide are unprecedented in at least the last 800,000 years." Their effects, together with those of other human related effects, have been detected throughout the climate system and are highly probable to have been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.

As with your denial of natural selection, your climate change denial serves your commitment to your years of ideological programming. You're not likely to change your thinking due to logical arguments or incontrovertible evidence. Just as you were trained, you fear that would jeopardize your salvation. At the base of your prejudices is sheer existential terror. What is reason or overwhelming evidence compared to that? The stupid liberals are oblivious to that and that's why you hate them. I get it, bro. No problem.

MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate.
FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, warming to 1941, cooling to 1964, warming to 1998 and cooling through 2011. The warming rate from 1964 to 1998 was the same as the previous warming from 1911 to 1941. Satellites, weather balloons and ground stations all show cooling since 2001. The mild warming of 0.6 to 0.8 C over the 20th century is well within the natural variations recorded in the last millennium. The ground station network suffers from an uneven distribution across the globe; the stations are preferentially located in growing urban and industrial areas ("heat islands"), which show substantially higher readings than adjacent rural areas ("land use effects"). Two science teams have shown that correcting the surface temperature record for the effects of urban development would reduce the reported warming trend over land from 1980 by half. See here.
There has been no catastrophic warming recorded.


MYTH 2: The "hockey stick" graph proves that the earth has experienced a steady, very gradual temperature decrease for 1000 years, then recently began a sudden increase.
FACT: Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time. For instance, the Medieval Warm Period, from around 1000 to1200 AD (when the Vikings farmed on Greenland) was followed by a period known as the Little Ice Age. Since the end of the 17th Century the "average global temperature" has been rising at the low steady rate mentioned above; although from 1940 – 1970 temperatures actually dropped, leading to a Global Cooling scare.
The "hockey stick", a poster boy of both the UN's IPCC and Canada's Environment Department, ignores historical recorded climatic swings, and has now also been proven to be flawed and statistically unreliable as well. It is a computer construct and a faulty one at that. See here for more information.

MYTH 3: Human produced carbon dioxide has increased over the last 100 years, adding to the Greenhouse effect, thus causing most of the earth's warming of the last 100 years.
FACT: Carbon dioxide levels have indeed changed for various reasons, human and otherwise, just as they have throughout geologic time. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, the CO2 content of the atmosphere has increased by about 120 part per million (ppm), most of which is likely due to human-caused CO2 emissions. The RATE of growth during this century has been about 0.55%/year. However, there is no proof that CO2 is the main driver of global warming. As measured in ice cores dated over many thousands of years, CO2 levels move up and down AFTER the temperature has done so, and thus are the RESULT OF, NOT THE CAUSE of warming. Geological field work in recent sediments confirms this causal relationship. There is solid evidence that, as temperatures move up and down naturally and cyclically through solar radiation, orbital and galactic influences, the warming surface layers of the earth's oceans expel more CO2 as a result.

MYTH 4: CO2 is the most common greenhouse gas.
FACT: Greenhouse gases form about 3% of the atmosphere by volume. They consist of varying amounts, (about 97%) of water vapour and clouds, with the remainder being gases like CO2, CH4, Ozone and N2O, of which carbon dioxide is the largest amount. Hence, CO2 constitutes about 0.04% of the atmosphere. While the minor gases are more effective as "greenhouse agents" than water vapour and clouds, the latter are overwhelming the effect by their sheer volume and – in the end – are thought to be responsible for 75% of the "Greenhouse effect". (See here) At current concentrations, a 3% change of water vapour in the atmosphere would have the same effect as a 100% change in CO2.
Those attributing climate change to CO2 rarely mention these important facts.

MYTH 5: Computer models verify that CO2 increases will cause significant global warming.
FACT: The computer models assume that CO2 is the primary climate driver, and that the Sun has an insignificant effect on climate. Using the output of a model to verify its initial assumption is committing the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. Computer models can be made to roughly match the 20th century temperature rise by adjusting many input parameters and using strong positive feedbacks. They do not "prove" anything. Also, computer models predicting global warming are incapable of properly including the effects of the sun, cosmic rays and the clouds. The sun is a major cause of temperature variation on the earth surface as its received radiation changes all the time, This happens largely in cyclical fashion. The number and the lengths in time of sunspots can be correlated very closely with average temperatures on earth, e.g. the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. Varying intensity of solar heat radiation affects the surface temperature of the oceans and the currents. Warmer ocean water expels gases, some of which are CO2. Solar radiation interferes with the cosmic ray flux, thus influencing the amount ionized nuclei which control cloud cover.

MYTH 6: The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has proven that man–made CO2 causes global warming.
FACT: In a 1996 report by the UN on global warming, two statements were deleted from the final draft approved and accepted by a panel of scientists. Here they are:
1) “None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.”
2) “No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man–made causes”
To the present day there is still no scientific proof that man-made CO2 causes significant global warming.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But the fire came from the Magic Dragon???

That was Hanna Lee, not Hudson by the Sea.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate.

This is a misunderstanding of the science. Climate change should not be observed based on temperature rise. This is why the term "climate change" has replaced "Global warming". The reason is the same as why ice tea does not get warmer during a hot summer day. Is it "warming"? Technically, no. What is really happening is that the ice is melting. Once the ice melts, then it will warm up very quickly.

Originally Posted by Ohio

MYTH 2: The "hockey stick" graph proves that the earth has experienced a steady, very gradual temperature decrease for 1000 years, then recently began a sudden increase.
FACT: Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time.

This also is true, but ignoring this is a valid approach since the vast majority of Americans don't understand anything about science and this would just confuse the matter. First, we have a 30,000 year cycle where the Earth gets closer to and then further from the Sun. As a result there is a cycle of warming and cooling. We also have sun spots and other anomalies which can cause short term swings. We also have volcanic eruptions which can have a very big short term effect. None of those natural cycles and events explains what we are witnessing.

Yes, it is true that this has happened before in the geologic record. During the Permian extinction we hit CO2 levels similar to today. Of course we also saw the extinction of 95% of all species on Earth and we saw vast amounts of the ocean evaporate so that the sea floor was exposed to the atmosphere.

Another similarity between today and the Permian extinction is the escape of methane hydrates into the atmosphere. This is an incredibly damaging feedback loop to the CO2 cycle (if you need an analogy to a "feedback loop" it is water rushing into a boat, as more water rushes in, the boat sinks, allowing for more water to rush in).

Originally Posted by Ohio

MYTH 3: Human produced carbon dioxide has increased over the last 100 years, adding to the Greenhouse effect, thus causing most of the earth's warming of the last 100 years.
FACT: Carbon dioxide levels have indeed changed for various reasons, human and otherwise, just as they have throughout geologic time. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, the CO2 content of the atmosphere has increased by about 120 part per million (ppm), most of which is likely due to human-caused CO2 emissions. The RATE of growth during this century has been about 0.55%/year. However, there is no proof that CO2 is the main driver of global warming. As measured in ice cores dated over many thousands of years, CO2 levels move up and down AFTER the temperature has done so, and thus are the RESULT OF, NOT THE CAUSE of warming. Geological field work in recent sediments confirms this causal relationship. There is solid evidence that, as temperatures move up and down naturally and cyclically through solar radiation, orbital and galactic influences, the warming surface layers of the earth's oceans expel more CO2 as a result.

This doesn't make a concern over the greenhouse effect of CO2 a myth. It just means that there are many factors that affect temperature. For example, Mt. Pinatubo's eruption caused a short term cooling.

Originally Posted by Ohio

MYTH 4: CO2 is the most common greenhouse gas.
FACT: Greenhouse gases form about 3% of the atmosphere by volume. They consist of varying amounts, (about 97%) of water vapour and clouds, with the remainder being gases like CO2, CH4, Ozone and N2O, of which carbon dioxide is the largest amount. Hence, CO2 constitutes about 0.04% of the atmosphere. While the minor gases are more effective as "greenhouse agents" than water vapour and clouds, the latter are overwhelming the effect by their sheer volume and – in the end – are thought to be responsible for 75% of the "Greenhouse effect". (See here) At current concentrations, a 3% change of water vapour in the atmosphere would have the same effect as a 100% change in CO2.
Those attributing climate change to CO2 rarely mention these important facts.

Three major greenhouse gases: CO2, Water vapor and Methane.

1. CO2 is an emission from fossil fuel which we have been burning since the beginning of the industrial age and have been measuring it accurately for over 60 years. It is increasing to very high levels on any scale, even geologic scales of hundreds of millions of years.

2. Water Vapor will increase in the air along with temperature. So it creates a feedback loop. As the temperature rises, we will get more water vapor from the ocean evaporating which in turn will help the temperature rise.

3. Methane is perhaps the most powerful greenhouse gas, 100 times more powerful than CO2. McDonald's has done an extraordinary job of changing the diet of this planet and pumping Methane gas into the atmosphere as a result. There is a double whammy, in order to raise the cows for their hamburgers they are cutting down rain forests which act as a carbon sink.

Originally Posted by Ohio

MYTH 5: Computer models verify that CO2 increases will cause significant global warming.
FACT: The computer models assume that CO2 is the primary climate driver, and that the Sun has an insignificant effect on climate. Using the output of a model to verify its initial assumption is committing the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. Computer models can be made to roughly match the 20th century temperature rise by adjusting many input parameters and using strong positive feedbacks. They do not "prove" anything. Also, computer models predicting global warming are incapable of properly including the effects of the sun, cosmic rays and the clouds. The sun is a major cause of temperature variation on the earth surface as its received radiation changes all the time, This happens largely in cyclical fashion. The number and the lengths in time of sunspots can be correlated very closely with average temperatures on earth, e.g. the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. Varying intensity of solar heat radiation affects the surface temperature of the oceans and the currents. Warmer ocean water expels gases, some of which are CO2. Solar radiation interferes with the cosmic ray flux, thus influencing the amount ionized nuclei which control cloud cover.

Computer models are very effective way to learn about climate, not just the factors which we already know, but how they interact and how each should be weighted. Using prediction is an excellent way to improve the science and working backward is also a good way (we have the data for the last 60 years. Make your model, plug it in for 1970 and see if it predicts the last 50 years).

Since there are many different models, just as there are for predicting a hurricane, we often find the best result from the average of the models.

Originally Posted by Ohio

MYTH 6: The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has proven that man–made CO2 causes global warming.
FACT: In a 1996 report by the UN on global warming, two statements were deleted from the final draft approved and accepted by a panel of scientists. Here they are:
1) “None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.”
2) “No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man–made causes”
To the present day there is still no scientific proof that man-made CO2 causes significant global warming.

That study is 20 years old and it emphasized the need for "proof". Since then the climate change in Syria and a few other countries is ascribed to climate change, at least as one of the factors.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

There's plenty of professionals who have debunked the climate change nonsense. They are marching for nothing, just another excuse to get their boobies out in public.

In recent years I've looked into climate change debunkers. Many I found to have business connections, that would be hurt by climate change policies.

So I'm with bro zeek, for maybe different reasons : Bring on the debunkers. In other words bro Evan, I'd like to consider the debunkers you're talking about.

And bro zeek. Cool your jets.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate.
FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, warming to 1941, cooling to 1964, warming to 1998 and cooling through 2011. The warming rate from 1964 to 1998 was the same as the previous warming from 1911 to 1941. Satellites, weather balloons and ground stations all show cooling since 2001. The mild warming of 0.6 to 0.8 C over the 20th century is well within the natural variations recorded in the last millennium. The ground station network suffers from an uneven distribution across the globe; the stations are preferentially located in growing urban and industrial areas ("heat islands"), which show substantially higher readings than adjacent rural areas ("land use effects"). Two science teams have shown that correcting the surface temperature record for the effects of urban development would reduce the reported warming trend over land from 1980 by half. See here.
There has been no catastrophic warming recorded.


MYTH 2: The "hockey stick" graph proves that the earth has experienced a steady, very gradual temperature decrease for 1000 years, then recently began a sudden increase.
FACT: Significant changes in climate have continually occurred throughout geologic time. For instance, the Medieval Warm Period, from around 1000 to1200 AD (when the Vikings farmed on Greenland) was followed by a period known as the Little Ice Age. Since the end of the 17th Century the "average global temperature" has been rising at the low steady rate mentioned above; although from 1940 – 1970 temperatures actually dropped, leading to a Global Cooling scare.
The "hockey stick", a poster boy of both the UN's IPCC and Canada's Environment Department, ignores historical recorded climatic swings, and has now also been proven to be flawed and statistically unreliable as well. It is a computer construct and a faulty one at that. See here for more information.

MYTH 3: Human produced carbon dioxide has increased over the last 100 years, adding to the Greenhouse effect, thus causing most of the earth's warming of the last 100 years.
FACT: Carbon dioxide levels have indeed changed for various reasons, human and otherwise, just as they have throughout geologic time. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution, the CO2 content of the atmosphere has increased by about 120 part per million (ppm), most of which is likely due to human-caused CO2 emissions. The RATE of growth during this century has been about 0.55%/year. However, there is no proof that CO2 is the main driver of global warming. As measured in ice cores dated over many thousands of years, CO2 levels move up and down AFTER the temperature has done so, and thus are the RESULT OF, NOT THE CAUSE of warming. Geological field work in recent sediments confirms this causal relationship. There is solid evidence that, as temperatures move up and down naturally and cyclically through solar radiation, orbital and galactic influences, the warming surface layers of the earth's oceans expel more CO2 as a result.

MYTH 4: CO2 is the most common greenhouse gas.
FACT: Greenhouse gases form about 3% of the atmosphere by volume. They consist of varying amounts, (about 97%) of water vapour and clouds, with the remainder being gases like CO2, CH4, Ozone and N2O, of which carbon dioxide is the largest amount. Hence, CO2 constitutes about 0.04% of the atmosphere. While the minor gases are more effective as "greenhouse agents" than water vapour and clouds, the latter are overwhelming the effect by their sheer volume and – in the end – are thought to be responsible for 75% of the "Greenhouse effect". (See here) At current concentrations, a 3% change of water vapour in the atmosphere would have the same effect as a 100% change in CO2.
Those attributing climate change to CO2 rarely mention these important facts.

MYTH 5: Computer models verify that CO2 increases will cause significant global warming.
FACT: The computer models assume that CO2 is the primary climate driver, and that the Sun has an insignificant effect on climate. Using the output of a model to verify its initial assumption is committing the logical fallacy of circular reasoning. Computer models can be made to roughly match the 20th century temperature rise by adjusting many input parameters and using strong positive feedbacks. They do not "prove" anything. Also, computer models predicting global warming are incapable of properly including the effects of the sun, cosmic rays and the clouds. The sun is a major cause of temperature variation on the earth surface as its received radiation changes all the time, This happens largely in cyclical fashion. The number and the lengths in time of sunspots can be correlated very closely with average temperatures on earth, e.g. the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period. Varying intensity of solar heat radiation affects the surface temperature of the oceans and the currents. Warmer ocean water expels gases, some of which are CO2. Solar radiation interferes with the cosmic ray flux, thus influencing the amount ionized nuclei which control cloud cover.

MYTH 6: The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has proven that man–made CO2 causes global warming.
FACT: In a 1996 report by the UN on global warming, two statements were deleted from the final draft approved and accepted by a panel of scientists. Here they are:
1) “None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.”
2) “No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man–made causes”
To the present day there is still no scientific proof that man-made CO2 causes significant global warming.

Here's another list of Myths :
https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Climate activism accomplishes very little. Name one thing it has accomplished. I don't see global warming reversing just because some scientists marched on the street.

The march for science was a first step. Scientists are organizing locally. The goal is to get scientists and pro-science people elected to public office at every level and then to change laws and policies in a direction conducive to science. If people adopt your position, defeat is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The march for science was a first step. Scientists are organizing locally. The goal is to get scientists and pro-science people elected to public office at every level and then to change laws and policies in a direction conducive to science. If people adopt your position, defeat is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

We were in a position at the time of king Solomon (archaeologists have discovered Solomon's mines and they were being run according to the concepts developed during the industrial revolution) to fully develop the industrial revolution with all of its pollution and learning curve. There was a 700 year period from Solomon to the invasion of Babylon. If Israel had undergone a 700 year period of industrial and technological revolution (we have had 150 years) then it is reasonable to assume they would have had trains, skyscrapers, cars, and airplanes. They probably would have had so much pollution that they would have discovered wind turbines and solar.

Therefore when the rest of the world discovered and then adopted this we could have skipped the toxic portion of burning fossil fuel. We could have avoided all of the ecological disasters we have seen this last 150 years and we would have avoided the human catastrophe resulting from these various empires invading each other (Roman Empire, Greek Empire, Medo Persian Empire, and Babylonian Empire). They all would have been stopped by Israel.

Also, you can forget about Ghenghis Khan or even the Crusades.

But man chose a different path, that of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Wars, rape, pillage, coveting, stealing, etc.

This is what drove the policy to invade Iraq. The biggest natural reserves of oil in the world, second only to Saudi Arabia (which had booby trapped their oil fields with dirty nuclear bombs) was Iraq. A very big gas field was discovered in Turkmenistan, which we got access to when we invaded Afghanistan.

This is not about the science, or understanding the science. The US government has understood the science for years and the Pentagon has already put plans in place for the catastrophe of climate change. Hence the call to "build a wall", "Brexit", or "Ms. Le Pen".

Even if the US were to convert tomorrow to being carbon neutral it would be too little too late. We are already in a negative feedback loop with methane hydrates escaping to the atmosphere and a huge loss in ice which reflects sunlight replaced by open ocean which absorbs the light. Most of our dirty factories have already moved to Asia, Mexico and the rest of the third world. We have already passed certain very key milestones, unprecedented CO2 levels in the atmosphere causing acidification of the ocean. Huge loss of biodiversity and habitat, weakening the ability of the Earth to bounce back. Incredible carbon pollution from the burning of fossil fuel and methane from cows. 7 billion people are like a huge ocean liner, it doesn't stop or turn quickly.

Climate change is upon us. If you live within 200 feet of sea level you should move to higher ground while you can still get market value for your home. Other than that prepare for Mad Max to run the country. One day you will reminisce about the good old days when Trump was your biggest worry.

Also, if you have a problem with the Bible talking about Hell fire, try visiting oil development of tar sands in Canada. Visit the oil field in Texas. Visit the land on fire in Pennsylvania. You will smell the sulfur, you will see the hellscape, just don't drink the water. You were warned that we were on a path that leads to hell, you didn't believe it, and now you can see the outskirts as we get closer and closer.

[awareness]

Global warming is caused by the heat of the loins.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We were in a position at the time of king Solomon (archaeologists have discovered Solomon's mines and they were being run according to the concepts developed during the industrial revolution) to fully develop the industrial revolution with all of its pollution and learning curve. There was a 700 year period from Solomon to the invasion of Babylon. If Israel had undergone a 700 year period of industrial and technological revolution (we have had 150 years) then it is reasonable to assume they would have had trains, skyscrapers, cars, and airplanes. They probably would have had so much pollution that they would have discovered wind turbines and solar.

Therefore when the rest of the world discovered and then adopted this we could have skipped the toxic portion of burning fossil fuel. We could have avoided all of the ecological disasters we have seen this last 150 years and we would have avoided the human catastrophe resulting from these various empires invading each other (Roman Empire, Greek Empire, Medo Persian Empire, and Babylonian Empire). They all would have been stopped by Israel.

Also, you can forget about Ghenghis Khan or even the Crusades.

But man chose a different path, that of "the grass is greener on the other side of the fence". Wars, rape, pillage, coveting, stealing, etc.

This is what drove the policy to invade Iraq. The biggest natural reserves of oil in the world, second only to Saudi Arabia (which had booby trapped their oil fields with dirty nuclear bombs) was Iraq. A very big gas field was discovered in Turkmenistan, which we got access to when we invaded Afghanistan.

This is not about the science, or understanding the science. The US government has understood the science for years and the Pentagon has already put plans in place for the catastrophe of climate change. Hence the call to "build a wall", "Brexit", or "Ms. Le Pen".

Even if the US were to convert tomorrow to being carbon neutral it would be too little too late. We are already in a negative feedback loop with methane hydrates escaping to the atmosphere and a huge loss in ice which reflects sunlight replaced by open ocean which absorbs the light. Most of our dirty factories have already moved to Asia, Mexico and the rest of the third world. We have already passed certain very key milestones, unprecedented CO2 levels in the atmosphere causing acidification of the ocean. Huge loss of biodiversity and habitat, weakening the ability of the Earth to bounce back. Incredible carbon pollution from the burning of fossil fuel and methane from cows. 7 billion people are like a huge ocean liner, it doesn't stop or turn quickly.

Climate change is upon us. If you live within 200 feet of sea level you should move to higher ground while you can still get market value for your home. Other than that prepare for Mad Max to run the country. One day you will reminisce about the good old days when Trump was your biggest worry.

Also, if you have a problem with the Bible talking about Hell fire, try visiting oil development of tar sands in Canada. Visit the oil field in Texas. Visit the land on fire in Pennsylvania. You will smell the sulfur, you will see the hellscape, just don't drink the water. You were warned that we were on a path that leads to hell, you didn't believe it, and now you can see the outskirts as we get closer and closer.

Goodness bro ZNP, your suppositions and extrapolations, are mind boggling. And are too much to buy into. But you have to know that already.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness bro ZNP, your suppositions and extrapolations, are mind boggling. And are too much to buy into. But you have to know that already.

If you buy oil or coal you already have boughten into it.

11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.

12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!

14 I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries.

15 The haters of the Lord should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

16 He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.

I prefer to buy into the Lord's word, rather than those who walk according to their own counsel and lusts.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

In recent years I've looked into climate change debunkers. Many I found to have business connections, that would be hurt by climate change policies.

So I'm with bro zeek, for maybe different reasons : Bring on the debunkers. In other words bro Evan, I'd like to consider the debunkers you're talking about.

And bro zeek. Cool your jets.

On the other hand, climate change scientists and those furthering the cause also have an interest in seeing that continue:

http://www.realclearinvestigations.c..._the_cold.html
When asked if he would voice dissent on climate change if he were a younger, less established physicist, he said: “Oh, no, definitely not. I held my tongue for a long time because friends told me I would not be elected to the National Academy of Sciences if I didn’t toe the alarmists’ company line.”

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

The march for science was a first step. Scientists are organizing locally. The goal is to get scientists and pro-science people elected to public office at every level and then to change laws and policies in a direction conducive to science. If people adopt your position, defeat is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

And how long will that take, zeek? ZNP has said "Even if the US were to convert tomorrow to being carbon neutral it would be too little too late. We are already in a negative feedback loop.... "

Even before Trump, I don't think scientists have ever had much of a say in politics.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If you buy oil or coal you already have boughten into it.

11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.

12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!

14 I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries.

15 The haters of the Lord should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.

16 He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee.

I prefer to buy into the Lord's word, rather than those who walk according to their own counsel and lusts.

Thanks for the pic to remind me how much the EPA cares about our great American resources.

Perhaps another pic from Flint showing us how well the EPA is caring for our drinking water.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

On the other hand, climate change scientists and those furthering the cause also have an interest in seeing that continue:

http://www.realclearinvestigations.c..._the_cold.html
When asked if he would voice dissent on climate change if he were a younger, less established physicist, he said: “Oh, no, definitely not. I held my tongue for a long time because friends told me I would not be elected to the National Academy of Sciences if I didn’t toe the alarmists’ company line.”

Georgia Tech scientist Judith Curry ..

And again I find :
Curry receives ongoing funding from the fossil fuel industry.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...ations_Network

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

[Quotes from Psalms]

I prefer to buy into the Lord's word, rather than those who walk according to their own counsel and lusts.

You do realize that those verses you quoted weren't talking about the Bible don't you?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

On the other hand, climate change scientists and those furthering the cause also have an interest in seeing that continue:

http://www.realclearinvestigations.c..._the_cold.html
When asked if he would voice dissent on climate change if he were a younger, less established physicist, he said: “Oh, no, definitely not. I held my tongue for a long time because friends told me I would not be elected to the National Academy of Sciences if I didn’t toe the alarmists’ company line.”

Great quote, we should believe a person who will say whatever they need to to get elected. Or "he was lying before but now he is telling the truth". By their own testimony they have no credibility.

The worldly system is transforming the paradise (Eden) into hell. They are creating a world that is very accurately described in the Bible. Verses that have been rejected as being "inconsistent with a loving God" are now reality.

Today they are talking about sending a "manned mission to Mars" and making us a dual planet species. There is a verse in Revelation that discusses the judgement of Climate Change and the Ozone hole and it concludes "and they shall by no means escape". Mars is not the solution.

If they are destroying the land with the mining of Tar sands and fracking now, do you think this will decrease as the coming judgement approaches?

When we descend into "Mad Max" land do you think the roving gangs will be planning to strike my house or one of Trump's palaces? Now you can understand the terror of these billionaires doing whatever it takes to put off that judgement for another year.

I like to think that regardless of how bad it gets they will still want teachers, but then I see pictures of Syria and realize if it gets that bad you can forget teachers.

These leaders are not thinking about a transition that can take 20 years, they are thinking about avoiding chaos over the next six months. Therefore it is "drill, baby, drill" and "I love coal miners". We have plenty of energy to supply the world for the next 20 years, some of the dirtiest, most polluting energy imaginable. For example tar sands often have a Return on investment of 2 barrels of oil for every barrel of oil used. Half of the oil they get from tar sands are used to destroy the land in order to get it. There is no way they use the other half to restore the land. This is rape and pillage. Promise anything, but only an idiot thinks that they intend to clean up their mess when they are done.

Today some aquifers of drinking water are damaged due to fracking, water coming out of the tap can catch fire. Imagine 20 years from now with an exponential increase of fracking. Flint Michigan is the tip of the iceberg.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

You do realize that those verses you quoted weren't talking about the Bible don't you?

I realize that your Biblical interpretation is biased and not credible. You convinced me with your recent discussion on Mark 9. Though there has been plenty prior to that. So if you have Bible commentary from someone credible I would be happy to respond to that.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

And how long will that take, zeek? ZNP has said "Even if the US were to convert tomorrow to being carbon neutral it would be too little too late. We are already in a negative feedback loop.... "

Even before Trump, I don't think scientists have ever had much of a say in politics.

ZNP's opinion is consistent with his supernatural, apocalyptic worldview. If enough people take a defeated view like you and he are doing than climate catastrophe becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. There is still reason to hope that that cutting greenhouse emissions can halt or mitigate global warming.https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...limate-change/

Science has always had to compete with political interests. But, science had a greater influence on public policy prior to the rise of conservative "faith-based" politics.

Trump is against anything that doesn't serve his personal interests. He has already betrayed the working class people who voted for him in many ways yet I hear that his favorability among them is still 96%. Demagogues have that effect on their followers. On the day they died, Jim Jones' followers praised him for giving them the courage to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for the pic to remind me how much the EPA cares about our great American resources.

And how about our cops. All these hundreds of years and they haven't stopped crime. Let's do away with cops. They ain't no count.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

ZNP's opinion is consistent with his supernatural, apocalyptic worldview. If enough people take a defeated view like you and he are doing than climate catastrophe becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. There is still reason to hope that that cutting greenhouse emissions can halt or mitigate global warming.https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...limate-change/

Science has always had to compete with political interests. But, science had a greater influence on public policy prior to the rise of conservative "faith-based" politics.

Trump is against anything that doesn't serve his personal interests. He has already betrayed the working class people who voted for him in many ways yet I hear that his favorability among them is still 96%. Demagogues have that effect on their followers. On the day they died, Jim Jones' followers praised him for giving them the courage to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid.

This is not a "defeated view". Nor am I advocating "doing nothing". I have already recommended that Trump drop the $450 billion slated for a mission to Mars and instead designate that the US Government buy $450 billion in solar power. If they purchase from US manufacturers (according to a recent Presidential directive) this would generate at least $150 billion in tax revenue and it would greatly help local industry drop their price and become more competitive worldwide.

If he further designated that this entire purchase go to the Pentagon, perhaps even including it in their budget, then this might prompt similar purchases by China, Russia, NATO, Japan, etc.

The New Testament describes the next age as "the restoration of all things" and says it will take 1,000 years. I have yet to see any scientific estimate on toxic sites that suggests it will take more than 1,000 years to restore.

One reason I am suggesting the Pentagon to purchase solar power is because they are already planning for Climate change, you don't have to convince them. Also they have the budget. Third, if we descend to Mad Max type situation we need Marshall law and we need our military to not collapse.

There are several descriptions in NT prophecy concerning a total collapse of the world's economy and currency. This is not hyperbole, it is the setting on which the Antichrist enters and the basis for Armageddon.

I have also shared on this forum that the design for the New Jerusalem is the solution to the crisis of climate change, the crisis of terrorism, and the way to make peace in the Middle East.

Everything I have shared is realistic based on the facts. We are witnessing a negative feedback loop on a massive scale. Methane Hydrates are bubbling into the atmosphere in a truly fantastic scale. The loss of ice in the last two years has been jaw dropping and results in the ocean absorbing more heat from the sun. No one is about to exterminate the billions of cows that are putting methane into the air. I have looked at the political reality, the US government would rather do nothing than address these issues, no other country is any better, and many have decided they cannot afford to be environmentally friendly. If anyone thinks that the current rate of emissions will not continue unabated they are in denial.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is not a "defeated view". Nor am I advocating "doing nothing". I have already recommended that Trump drop the $450 billion slated for a mission to Mars and instead designate that the US Government buy $450 billion in solar power. If they purchase from US manufacturers (according to a recent Presidential directive) this would generate at least $150 billion in tax revenue and it would greatly help local industry drop their price and become more competitive worldwide.

If he further designated that this entire purchase go to the Pentagon, perhaps even including it in their budget, then this might prompt similar purchases by China, Russia, NATO, Japan, etc.

The New Testament describes the next age as "the restoration of all things" and says it will take 1,000 years. I have yet to see any scientific estimate on toxic sites that suggests it will take more than 1,000 years to restore.

One reason I am suggesting the Pentagon to purchase solar power is because they are already planning for Climate change, you don't have to convince them. Also they have the budget. Third, if we descend to Mad Max type situation we need Marshall law and we need our military to not collapse.

There are several descriptions in NT prophecy concerning a total collapse of the world's economy and currency. This is not hyperbole, it is the setting on which the Antichrist enters and the basis for Armageddon.

I have also shared on this forum that the design for the New Jerusalem is the solution to the crisis of climate change, the crisis of terrorism, and the way to make peace in the Middle East.

Everything I have shared is realistic based on the facts. We are witnessing a negative feedback loop on a massive scale. Methane Hydrates are bubbling into the atmosphere in a truly fantastic scale. The loss of ice in the last two years has been jaw dropping and results in the ocean absorbing more heat from the sun. No one is about to exterminate the billions of cows that are putting methane into the air. I have looked at the political reality, the US government would rather do nothing than address these issues, no other country is any better, and many have decided they cannot afford to be environmentally friendly. If anyone thinks that the current rate of emissions will not continue unabated they are in denial.

I'm glad to see you are not ignoring environmental events like one discussant here. To whom are you making your recommendations?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump is against anything that doesn't serve his personal interests.

Yes, and that's because Trump really wants a coal furnace in the White House! Of course. It all makes so much sense.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is not a "defeated view". Nor am I advocating "doing nothing". I have already recommended that Trump drop the $450 billion slated for a mission to Mars and instead designate that the US Government buy $450 billion in solar power. If they purchase from US manufacturers (according to a recent Presidential directive) this would generate at least $150 billion in tax revenue and it would greatly help local industry drop their price and become more competitive worldwide.

Why should I as a tax payer have to finance Government solar panels?

Why can't we continue with our mix of private coal, gas, nuclear power generation.

The gov't should provide us with a national defense, and basically back out of everything else.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, and that's because Trump really wants a coal furnace in the White House! Of course. It all makes so much sense.

You mean Mar-A-Lago?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why should I as a tax payer have to finance Government solar panels?

Why can't we continue with our mix of private coal, gas, nuclear power generation.

The gov't should provide us with a national defense, and basically back out of everything else.

The price of oil does not adequately reflect the true price. Our trillion dollar military presence in the Middle East is very fairly part of the cost of oil. Once that is understood it is very clear that solar is not only less expensive, it is also strategically intelligent in that it reduces the pressure for international conflict.

In addition, when you calculate the cost of oil, since it is imported the government does not receive tax dollars. But with solar that is manufactured in the US the US government gets back 40% of the cost in tax revenue, it generates excellent domestic jobs and industry and good service jobs going forward. It also is a clean energy that doesn't result in air pollution and asthma.

Health care costs for asthma and related air pollution costs like cancer should also be calculated in as a very real saving. Solar is a very good investment based on today's cost for energy, but that is still not a reasonable calculation. When you pay for solar you are paying for 25 years of energy. Ask yourself, is oil going to get more expensive over the next 25 years? If so that has to be calculated into your determination.

By every single measure solar is a very good investment for the US government. But it is especially good for our military because it results in a distributed power source. Right now the power grid is a target for terrorists, hackers and all foreign enemies. The more the military decentralizes it the smarter it is for a strategic point of view.

Finally, a very large contract like the one I envision will have a huge impact on the development of US industry and manufacturing.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I'm glad to see you are not ignoring environmental events like one discussant here. To whom are you making your recommendations?

You have to first bind the strong man before you can plunder his kingdom.

Look at who is running this country, would you trust them? It is the same reason that Adam and Eve were banished from the garden, you cannot give these corrupt leaders this secret.

Step 1 -- bind them. This will take place when the stock market crashes and currency crashes.

Step 2 -- Jesus can come in and plunder this worldly system.

The NJ comes in after this point.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You have to first bind the strong man before you can plunder his kingdom.

Look at who is running this country, would you trust them? It is the same reason that Adam and Eve were banished from the garden, you cannot give these corrupt leaders this secret.

Step 1 -- bind them. This will take place when the stock market crashes and currency crashes.

Step 2 -- Jesus can come in and plunder this worldly system.

The NJ comes in after this point.

Is that an answer to my question? At least we can see that your eschatology is imaginative.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Is that an answer to my question? At least we can see that your eschatology is imaginative.

The NJ is an amazing design, once the world learns this it will be a game changer. The beauty of the unsustainable economy is that it reveals those who fleshly and their kingdom is unsustainable. There is no way you want them to get access to the NJ. Your question was "to whom are you making you recommendations". My "recommendations" is the gospel. The same guy who foresaw 2,000 years ago the crisis we are in now also laid out the solution. No one else can hold a candle to Him.

[ZNPaaneah]

Many people are wringing their hands over climate change.

They rightly see that world leaders are ignoring catastrophic environmental change due to human activity (pollution). They suspect that this is because the rich are rich as a result of this pillage (billionaire club knows as Trump's cabinet, Major oil executives running the government ever since Reagan, etc).

They look at the horrific sight of oil spills in the Gulf, tar sands in Canada, fracking in the Midwest, and see that these "developers" have no line of decency that they won't cross for the "almighty" buck.

They rightly see what is happening in Syria, Afghanistan, and Iraq as a result of both unchecked development of oil and climate change.

They look at the 1 trillion dollar price tag with horror when shown side by side with snapshots of Detroit and Flint.

They see climate refugees beginning to flood the developed world, tropical diseases like Zika scaring us to death, and of course the disappearance of glaciers and ice caps in the relative blink of an eye. And again, they are unable to see the silver lining in all of this.

Go back to the complaint that world leaders aren't doing anything. The good thing about climate change, the silver lining, is that it will remove the world leaders. That is what "revolution" means. The wheel revolves. Those in the mud move up to the top, those at the top move down to the mud.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Many people are wringing their hands over climate change.

They rightly see that world leaders are ignoring catastrophic environmental change due to human activity (pollution). They suspect that this is because the rich are rich as a result of this pillage (billionaire club knows as Trump's cabinet, Major oil executives running the government ever since Reagan, etc).

Most people start from the presumption that fuel emissions cause climate change, and that only liberals can save us, but as I have noted before ...

The climate changes with or without human intervention. During the 20th century alone we went thru both a cool down and a warming period. No model in existence is able to account for both past and present climate data, yet they still use their extrapolations to make "scientific" predictions. If spooking the people with Wooly Mammoths didn't work when I was young, then try something else.

Have we all now become as "qualified" as Bill Nye the "science guy?"

Even if their claims are true, US emissions are nothing compared to the rest of the world. We barely have a manufacturing base anymore, and our EPA regulations are orders of magnitude more stringent that the rest of the world, hence the US could effectively "turn off the lights" and it would have nearly no impact.

Ever consider how much more dangerous volcanic emissions are than vehicular or manufacturing emissions? The earth itself has great "cleansing" power over pollutants, yet the earth itself is far more dangerous to "Mother Nature" than man actually is.

But why not incite all the campus snowflakes for political gain? Why not twist all the data for political advantage? Clintons, Obamas, et. al. for decades got real rich and powerful with this "business model."

Did anyone ever consider that perhaps climate change is good for man? What if it is part of God's plan to wake us up and speak to us? What if the "fullness of the time" is drawing near, and this earth is right on schedule? What if the increase in natural disasters (volcanoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.) completely outside of man's control are all designed to be signals to us? What if our Creator has no intention that this earth should last us another millennia? What if the Biblical prophecies are actually true and will be soon accomplished?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Your question was "to whom are you making you recommendations". My "recommendations" is the gospel. The same guy who foresaw 2,000 years ago the crisis we are in now also laid out the solution. No one else can hold a candle to Him.

You said "I have already recommended that Trump drop the $450 billion slated for a mission to Mars and instead designate that the US Government buy $450 billion in solar power." So you consider $450 billion for solar power to be the "gospel"?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

You mean Mar-A-Lago?

Sure. Coal furnaces are desperately needed throughout Florida.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The NJ is an amazing design, once the world learns this it will be a game changer. The beauty of the unsustainable economy is that it reveals those who fleshly and their kingdom is unsustainable. There is no way you want them to get access to the NJ. Your question was "to whom are you making you recommendations". My "recommendations" is the gospel. The same guy who foresaw 2,000 years ago the crisis we are in now also laid out the solution. No one else can hold a candle to Him.

Yeah JC!!! And look at that amazing NJ.

Can't be that many in the NJ. It's not the big. It's a big square like the Borg in Star Trek. It's only 1400 miles square. I wonder if the people in it will be like those connected to the Borg ; all connected, by the spirit, to central control. Resistance is futile ... haha.

But I think that what makes the NJ so amazing, is not it's stunning arresting beauty, but the fact that there will be very few there. Members may not even know there are other members.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Most people start from the presumption that fuel emissions cause climate change, and that only liberals can save us, but as I have noted before ...

Liberals are not going to save us. Agreed.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The climate changes with or without human intervention. During the 20th century alone we went thru both a cool down and a warming period. No model in existence is able to account for both past and present climate data, yet they still use their extrapolations to make "scientific" predictions. If spooking the people with Wooly Mammoths didn't work when I was young, then try something else.

I have no idea where you get this from, every climate model that I am aware of takes into account volcanic eruptions and sun spots ability to cool the planet. Yes, it is absolutely correct to say there are many factors involved and pollution is not the only factor.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have we all now become as "qualified" as Bill Nye the "science guy?"

Qualified for what? Every citizen has a right and responsibility to vote and they should vote based on their understanding of the issues.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Even if their claims are true, US emissions are nothing compared to the rest of the world. We barely have a manufacturing base anymore, and our EPA regulations are orders of magnitude more stringent that the rest of the world, hence the US could effectively "turn off the lights" and it would have nearly no impact.

Ever consider how much more dangerous volcanic emissions are than vehicular or manufacturing emissions? The earth itself has great "cleansing" power over pollutants, yet the earth itself is far more dangerous to "Mother Nature" than man actually is.

Yes, I have considered this in detail. The biggest volcanic eruptions that ever took place recorded in Geologic history took place at the end of the Permian when Pangea was still in place. It took place during the Permian Extinction when 95% of all life went extinct.

Originally Posted by Ohio

But why not incite all the campus snowflakes for political gain? Why not twist all the data for political advantage? Clintons, Obamas, et. al. for decades got real rich and powerful with this "business model."

Did anyone ever consider that perhaps climate change is good for man?

Have you read my posts? My point is that Climate change will be the "binding of the strong man" that precedes Jesus plundering of Satan's kingdom.

Originally Posted by Ohio

What if it is part of God's plan to wake us up and speak to us?

I do not call it God's plan, that just gives more fuel to Awareness with his POE arguments. I say that man came to a fork in the road at the time of king Solomon. At that time Solomon should have obeyed the Moses law to not go outside the kingdom, had he done that the industrial revolution would have been born. He was on the cusp. Once they disobeyed God we began down this path that led here.

Originally Posted by Ohio

What if the "fullness of the time" is drawing near, and this earth is right on schedule? What if the increase in natural disasters (volcanoes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.) completely outside of man's control are all designed to be signals to us? What if our Creator has no intention that this earth should last us another millennia? What if the Biblical prophecies are actually true and will be soon accomplished?

The fullness of time is drawing near.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah JC!!! And look at that amazing NJ.

Can't be that many in the NJ. It's not the big. It's a big square like the Borg in Star Trek. It's only 1400 miles square. I wonder if the people in it will be like those connected to the Borg ; all connected, by the spirit, to central control. Resistance is futile ... haha.

But I think that what makes the NJ so amazing, is not it's stunning arresting beauty, but the fact that there will be very few there. Members may not even know there are other members.

Our MODA has lost it.

Should get replaced by a Blender.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure. Coal furnaces are desperately needed throughout Florida.

Trump Tower?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump Tower?

Your question does not make sense, but the discussion started here ...

Originally Posted by zeek

Trump is against anything that doesn't serve his personal interests. He has already betrayed the working class people who voted for him in many ways yet I hear that his favorability among them is still 96%. Demagogues have that effect on their followers. On the day they died, Jim Jones' followers praised him for giving them the courage to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid.

My reply was that coal is good for America's working class (e.g. WV and KY,) and does not serve Trump in any way. The coal industry (led by notably Dem. Senator Manchin of WV) felt betrayed by Obama and Clinton, and felt Trump was their advocate.

But for typical coastline Liberals, these coal people are stupid "demagogues" who drink Kool-Aid. Your statement here is so indicative of the Proud Progressive Left with its arrogant condescending attitudes towards the working class. That's why Trump won.

As long as the Left keeps these arrogant attitudes, they will continue to spiral into obscurity.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your question does not make sense, but the discussion started here ...

My reply was that coal is good for America's working class (e.g. WV and KY,) and does not serve Trump in any way. The coal industry (led by notably Dem. Senator Manchin of WV) felt betrayed by Obama and Clinton, and felt Trump was their advocate.

But for typical coastline Liberals, these coal people are stupid "demagogues" who drink Kool-Aid. Your statement here is so indicative of the Proud Progressive Left with its arrogant condescending attitudes towards the working class. That's why Trump won.

As long as the Left keeps these arrogant attitudes, they will continue to spiral into obscurity.

Investments?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah JC!!! And look at that amazing NJ.

Can't be that many in the NJ. It's not the big. It's a big square like the Borg in Star Trek. It's only 1400 miles square. I wonder if the people in it will be like those connected to the Borg ; all connected, by the spirit, to central control. Resistance is futile ... haha.

But I think that what makes the NJ so amazing, is not it's stunning arresting beauty, but the fact that there will be very few there. Members may not even know there are other members.

The population is probably around 10 billion.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The population is probably around 10 billion.

The Christian population is not, though A's thought of no one realizing others are there is off to the other extreme.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

The Christian population is not, though A's thought of no one realizing others are there is off to the other extreme.

Based on my understanding of the model the population density of the NJ is about 70,000 per square mile.

Obviously I have no idea of the population of the NJ other than that estimate. But we did try reconstructing the model in pretty extensive detail.

[zeek]

Trump's tax proposal includes a massive cut in the top tax rate on “pass-through” companies like his own, from its current level of 39.6% to a mere 15%. This is a huge giveaway to the rich including Trump himself.

[Evangelical]

The hottest day on record in NY city was July 9 1936:

https://realclimatescience.com/2016/...new-york-city/

You don't need to be a scientist to be able to interpret those graphs and realize that climate change is nonsense.

For more on how the data is manipulated to fit the agenda see here:

https://realclimatescience.com/globa...ion-and-fraud/


Just like they said in the 1970's that a "30 year cooling" may never end.. people were preparing for the new ice age.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The hottest day on record in NY city was July 9 1936:

https://realclimatescience.com/2016/...new-york-city/

You don't need to be a scientist to be able to interpret those graphs and realize that climate change is nonsense.

For more on how the data is manipulated to fit the agenda see here:

https://realclimatescience.com/globa...ion-and-fraud/


Just like they said in the 1970's that a "30 year cooling" may never end.. people were preparing for the new ice age.

This is why that have to start fresh with college kids, teaching them the new Green Religion of Climate Change before they get old enough to see thru the sham. Unfortunately, some posters here never matured in their views. Stick around long enough and the next Ice Age will become fashionable again. Just like Bell Bottoms.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The hottest day on record in NY city was July 9 1936:

https://realclimatescience.com/2016/...new-york-city/

You don't need to be a scientist to be able to interpret those graphs and realize that climate change is nonsense.

For more on how the data is manipulated to fit the agenda see here:

https://realclimatescience.com/globa...ion-and-fraud/


Just like they said in the 1970's that a "30 year cooling" may never end.. people were preparing for the new ice age.

Wow, very scientific.

So a calculation of the warmest year, including data from thousands of cities is thrown out for a calculation of the warmest city, basically one thermometer in central park?



You can't have it both ways. You can't say that one thermometer in Central Park rules out climate change whereas hundreds of thousands of them over the last hundred years are not relevant.

When I was a kid it was unthinkable that the Arctic Ice sheet would melt during the summer. No more.



For all you budding scientists out there do you know why they chose to measure CO2 levels in Hawaii?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I realize that your Biblical interpretation is biased and not credible. You convinced me with your recent discussion on Mark 9. Though there has been plenty prior to that. So if you have Bible commentary from someone credible I would be happy to respond to that.

You may be at least a little correct concerning awareness. But when you start pontificating about the proximity of an industrial revolution because there were some methods in Solomon's mines potentially similar to those used in the 1700s and 1800s in the West, your credibility slips. And when you take any verse that talks about one thing and apply it to anything you want, it slips just a little bit further.

Nee and Lee worked hard to make nonsense out of the Bible. You may not like their nonsense, but you seem to be working just as hard to take the Bible where it otherwise does not go. Just to a different place than Nee and Lee did.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Based on my understanding of the model the population density of the NJ is about 70,000 per square mile.

Obviously I have no idea of the population of the NJ other than that estimate. But we did try reconstructing the model in pretty extensive detail.

You miss the point. The New Jerusalem does not house the entire population of the present world. It houses the people of God from all generations. At this point, significantly less than the current population. Less than half. Probably way below that.

The population density of NJ is irrelevant to the comment I made.

And the current population of the earth is irrelevant to the comment Awareness made about the number of people who would be inhabiting the New Jerusalem and therefore in proximity of each other if they spread out equally. (That assumes that his assumptions about the number there and how they would be dispersed is reasonable.)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

You may be at least a little correct concerning awareness. But when you start pontificating about the proximity of an industrial revolution because there were some methods in Solomon's mines potentially similar to those used in the 1700s and 1800s in the West, your credibility slips. And when you take any verse that talks about one thing and apply it to anything you want, it slips just a little bit further.

Nee and Lee worked hard to make nonsense out of the Bible. You may not like their nonsense, but you seem to be working just as hard to take the Bible where it otherwise does not go. Just to a different place than Nee and Lee did.

So try reading National Geographic:

King Solomon's Mines Rediscovered?
Rebecca Carroll
for National Geographic News
October 28, 2008
Copper mines in southern Jordan were active centuries earlier than previously believed, according to a new study that suggests the area was producing the metal at the same time the biblical figure of King Solomon is said to have built Jerusalem's first Jewish temple.
Industrial-scale metal production was occurring at a site in Jordan in the tenth century B.C., according to the study's carbon dating of ancient industrial mining debris and analysis of the settlement's layout.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-missions.html

There are six factors that led to the industrial revolution

1. Industrial production — by all accounts archaeologists have determined that King’s Solomon’s mines did exist and produced iron and copper on an industrial scale.

2. Agricultural production — again, check.

3. Iron Smelting — check

4. Coal extraction — I assume they used coal for their smelting operation. It could have been charcoal.

5. The railways — they did not have this but needed it. According to the archaelogists they must have had a massively long camel train to transport the metal being smelted at the scale that was taking place.

6. Steam power — again they did not have this. But they had the need.

The embargo act of 1807 had a big impact on pushing the US towards an industrial revolution because we had to produce the goods that we would have otherwise imported. Moses law imposed an artificial embargo act on Solomon which he ignored. However, had he obeyed the law he would have needed coal or oil for his mines.

The war of 1812 also was a springboard for the industrial revolution because it forced us to see the need for a better transportation system. I think it is obvious that Solomon with his mines and long camel train would have also seen the need for a better transportation system.

Other key factors were natural resources — iron and coal. Israel has both. Economic strength, Israel had this at the time of Solomon. Political stability, Israel had this at the time of Solomon.

The description of Solomon as the “wisest man on earth” and how he had his servants in perfect order, with clockwork precision. This is the environment that would be ideal for making the key improvements for the industrial revolution.

In 600 BC a basic form of the railway existed in Ancient Greece and Roman times called “the rutway”. I do not think it is far fetched to suggest that Solomon could have also come up with something like that.

Heron of Alexandria had invented a number of gadgets that used steam power for various purposes. This was about 1,000 years after Solomon, but a good 1600 years before the invention of the steam engine. Once again, boiling water, seeing steam, and understanding how it works is not very complicated. The concept is relatively simple if you have the tools and capital to fabricate the metal parts. It would have been a great discovery had it taken place at the time of Solomon. My point is, necessity is the mother of invention. If Solomon had submitted to the self imposed embargo of Moses he would have had the need and according to the Bible “the wisest man on Earth” certainly had the resources and manpower to invent this.

It is not reasonable to think of any other time. After Solomon the Kingdom was split, then they were invaded by Babylonians, and from that point on it was one empire after another sweeping through Israel.

Obviously this is a hypothetical. But there are certain things that are not hypothetical.

1. Solomon's mines
2. Solomon's need for energy in smelting
3. Solomon's need for a better transportation system for his mines
4. Stabile government
5. Resources to do what was necessary
6. Strong centralized govt
7. Wise leader

It is not a leap to think he would have created a prototype of a railway.

Once he had a railway had he obeyed the self imposed embargo it would have been extraordinary if they had then invented the steam engine, but from a scientific or technological viewpoint that also would not have been a big leap. You have all the resources, you have the need, you have a railway, now you need an engine.

Ask yourself "at what point did we take this fork in the road that led to catastrophic climate change and Armageddon being inevitable?" What was the instruction from God that we ignored? Obviously you don't like my suggestion that it was Solomon so why don't you tell me when it was?

Also, please note, I think this is a reasonable interpretation of Ps 81.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

You miss the point. The New Jerusalem does not house the entire population of the present world. It houses the people of God from all generations. At this point, significantly less than the current population. Less than half. Probably way below that.

The population density of NJ is irrelevant to the comment I made.

And the current population of the earth is irrelevant to the comment Awareness made about the number of people who would be inhabiting the New Jerusalem and therefore in proximity of each other if they spread out equally. (That assumes that his assumptions about the number there and how they would be dispersed is reasonable.)

I never said that the NJ houses the entire world's population. The fact that the number I quoted is similar to the world's population is simply a coincidence. I did not bring it up or in any connect the two, that is you.

My comment was a response to Awareness saying there would be very few people there. Therefore it is relevant.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that one thermometer in Central Park rules out climate change whereas hundreds of thousands of them over the last hundred years are not relevant.

I've also read that the snow/ice pack in the Antarctic is growing.

And I think the people of earth have far more serious concerns than melting snow in the Arctic Circle.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've also read that the snow/ice pack in the Antarctic is growing.

And I think the people of earth have far more serious concerns than melting snow in the Arctic Circle.

The issue to me is

1. What is happening?

2. Why?

3. What are the risks or dangers involved?

I think the science has done an adequate job of answering these three questions. We can quibble over the details, but denying the facts is not a defensible position.

that said I do agree that the solution is not necessarily to jump to some form of hysteria. Instead:

4. What is the solution?

5. How much will it cost?

This is the problem, there is no solution that can be implemented solely by the US. If India and China are not on board we don't have a solution.

By my understanding we have passed the point of no return a long time ago. We are on a runaway train, it has 5 or 6 engines of which we can only control one engine and we have no way of stopping this train.

We cannot avoid the storm, therefore prepare for it. If our military had an independent power source from the Sun then it would be unlikely that they would be unable to operate during a worldwide collapse. This is something we can do. It does make sense economically. We have the money and it is an efficient use of the money. By comparison trying to secure oil fields in the Middle East where Russia, Iran, India, China and Europe will all be fighting as well is not a good strategy. When the major powers are running their navies like Somali pirates the situation will be very different for us. No way to get an oil tanker from the Middle East to the US.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There are six factors that led to the industrial revolution

1. Industrial production — by all accounts archaeologists have determined that King’s Solomon’s mines did exist and produced iron and copper on an industrial scale.

2. Agricultural production — again, check.

3. Iron Smelting — check

4. Coal extraction — I assume they used coal for their smelting operation. It could have been charcoal.

5. The railways — they did not have this but needed it. According to the archaelogists they must have had a massively long camel train to transport the metal being smelted at the scale that was taking place.

6. Steam power — again they did not have this. But they had the need.

You have 6 factors, not clearly stated anywhere as all that is needed.

So let's review them.

Factor 1. Not particularly meaningful since it is merely a measure of quantity, not quality or mode of delivery. And it was stated (by you) as including something that is not otherwise included — iron production. Not saying they didn't produce any, but you surely haven't provided any evidence of anything like significant production of it. Rather just copper.

Factor 2. Agricultural production. And breathing and eating. They hadn't died, so they must be on the verge of an industrial revolution.

Factor 3. Iron smelting. It would be impressive if true. But you provided no evidence of it.

Factor 4. Coal extraction. Stated separately from the other mining so that it could be propped-up as another factor?

Factor 5. Railways. Nope.

Factor 6. Steam engines. Nope.

I guess we really don't have much except for the fact that they did mining in a particular region 300 years before previously thought.

Yep, they are on the cusp of an industrial revolution. Probably will occur in about 2,800 years.

You really think that man had advanced so far by 1,000 BC but then regressed so extremely that they couldn't get back to the same place until around 1800 AD? It boggles the mind. Did the kind of mining they were doing become so poor that it was not seen again until the 1500s or later?

The problem is that the claim of industrial revolution is something that you are saying, but it appears that no one else is supporting your claims. National Geographic is not saying it. When referring to the building of the Temple, there is a reference to a lot of copper, and to smaller amounts of gold and silver, but not to iron. Where do you get this stuff. Do you just make it up?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I never said that the NJ houses the entire world's population. The fact that the number I quoted is similar to the world's population is simply a coincidence. I did not bring it up or in any connect the two, that is you.

My comment was a response to Awareness saying there would be very few people there. Therefore it is relevant.

"The fact is" that in response to awareness' comment about the ability of the inhabitants to spread out, you did not provide any meaningful analysis of even a guess of how many there may be there and how that would spread out. You just provided an estimate of the current world population.

Not very helpful.

Then when I come back and ask about that, you provide the persons per square mile in NJ. Still irrelevant if we don't have a number to spread over any number of square miles.

In other words, for every question raised, you answered a different question. You should run for political office.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Why don't these FemiNazis get a little crazy about them Mooslam doctors who perform female genital manipulation surgery on all the young girls???

Bro Ohio, you'll be delighted. Here are a few Muslim's that agree with you. Of course they got busted, so they are trying to use religious rights to get off. Fat chance the court will agree, but these Muslims do agree with you:

Two Detroit doctors and a woman are charged over genital mutilation of two seven-year-old girls

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ung-girls.html

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Where do you [ZNP] get this stuff. Do you just make it up?

Well he seems to be pulling it out of somewhere. And there's not many options.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The issue to me is

1. What is happening?

2. Why?

3. What are the risks or dangers involved?

I think the science has done an adequate job of answering these three questions. We can quibble over the details, but denying the facts is not a defensible position.

that said I do agree that the solution is not necessarily to jump to some form of hysteria. Instead:

4. What is the solution?

5. How much will it cost?

This is the problem, there is no solution that can be implemented solely by the US. If India and China are not on board we don't have a solution.

By my understanding we have passed the point of no return a long time ago. We are on a runaway train, it has 5 or 6 engines of which we can only control one engine and we have no way of stopping this train.

We cannot avoid the storm, therefore prepare for it. If our military had an independent power source from the Sun then it would be unlikely that they would be unable to operate during a worldwide collapse. This is something we can do. It does make sense economically. We have the money and it is an efficient use of the money. By comparison trying to secure oil fields in the Middle East where Russia, Iran, India, China and Europe will all be fighting as well is not a good strategy. When the major powers are running their navies like Somali pirates the situation will be very different for us. No way to get an oil tanker from the Middle East to the US.

There is no reason why the US cannot be an exporter of energy.

But back to the pending "ice age" we faced decades ago. How did we fix that? What was the solution? How much did it cost?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro Ohio, you'll be delighted. Here are a few Muslim's that agree with you. Of course they got busted, so they are trying to use religious rights to get off. Fat chance the court will agree, but these Muslims do agree with you:

Two Detroit doctors and a woman are charged over genital mutilation of two seven-year-old girls

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ung-girls.html

Well bro ... why all the drama?

If Christians were doing this, you would be all over it.

Why is it all the liberal news outlets, which you handily espouse, are so silent on this?

Do you agree with this evil and perverted chauvinist practice? Sounds like it.

And why is it when some conservative like me brings up these dangerous "habits" of Muslams, like terrorism and FGM, you get so upset?

This evil religious practice is worse than barbaric and cultic.

And you want to bring these folks into the US?

These young girls need asylum and these Quacks need an electric chair!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

You really think that man had advanced so far by 1,000 BC but then regressed so extremely that they couldn't get back to the same place until around 1800 AD? It boggles the mind. Did the kind of mining they were doing become so poor that it was not seen again until the 1500s or later?

The problem is that the claim of industrial revolution is something that you are saying, but it appears that no one else is supporting your claims. National Geographic is not saying it. When referring to the building of the Temple, there is a reference to a lot of copper, and to smaller amounts of gold and silver, but not to iron. Where do you get this stuff. Do you just make it up?

ZNP has brought up some good points and questions. Have you ever studied ancient Greek/Roman Math, Science, and Engineering?

Many of our "modern" discoveries, post Renaissance era, actually built upon their work. In other words, remove centuries of wars, sinful corruptions, and religious evils (E.g. the RCC, idolatry, Mohammedism, etc.) from the equation, and who knows how much more quickly mankind would have advanced.

Obviously man has spent more time going backwards than going forward.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

"The fact is" that in response to awareness' comment about the ability of the inhabitants to spread out, you did not provide any meaningful analysis of even a guess of how many there may be there and how that would spread out. You just provided an estimate of the current world population.

Not very helpful.

Then when I come back and ask about that, you provide the persons per square mile in NJ. Still irrelevant if we don't have a number to spread over any number of square miles.

In other words, for every question raised, you answered a different question. You should run for political office.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The NJ is 144,000 square miles, you don't need to be told that, so if you know it is 70,000 per square mile that equals 10 billion.

I am not going to go into detail on the design of the NJ on this thread.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

You have 6 factors, not clearly stated anywhere as all that is needed.

So let's review them.

Factor 1. Not particularly meaningful since it is merely a measure of quantity, not quality or mode of delivery. And it was stated (by you) as including something that is not otherwise included — iron production. Not saying they didn't produce any, but you surely haven't provided any evidence of anything like significant production of it. Rather just copper.

Factor 2. Agricultural production. And breathing and eating. They hadn't died, so they must be on the verge of an industrial revolution.

Factor 3. Iron smelting. It would be impressive if true. But you provided no evidence of it.

Factor 4. Coal extraction. Stated separately from the other mining so that it could be propped-up as another factor?

Factor 5. Railways. Nope.

Factor 6. Steam engines. Nope.

I guess we really don't have much except for the fact that they did mining in a particular region 300 years before previously thought.

Yep, they are on the cusp of an industrial revolution. Probably will occur in about 2,800 years.

You really think that man had advanced so far by 1,000 BC but then regressed so extremely that they couldn't get back to the same place until around 1800 AD? It boggles the mind. Did the kind of mining they were doing become so poor that it was not seen again until the 1500s or later?

The problem is that the claim of industrial revolution is something that you are saying, but it appears that no one else is supporting your claims. National Geographic is not saying it. When referring to the building of the Temple, there is a reference to a lot of copper, and to smaller amounts of gold and silver, but not to iron. Where do you get this stuff. Do you just make it up?

What the archaeologists were impressed with was the scale of the operation. They must have had a significant camp set up for the workers to mine. Then they had an "industrial style" smelting operation going on so that the ore could be reduced down to a good quality ore, which was then transported from the mine to the city. It was an impressive operation in size and it is precisely the kind of industrial application that led to mankind's ultimate discovery of the industrial revolution.

But once again, you did not answer my question.

1. Is it a sin that man uses fossil fuel?

2. If not then please explain how we could have avoided the pollution and climate change that burning this fuel has caused?

At what point in human history did we take a wrong turn that has led us here?

That is what this interpretation does. It shows what it means that "his wisdom is turned to foolishness" in 1 Cor. Solomon is a model of wisdom, yet it was by his wisdom that he ignored God's commands. As a result he did not know God and his wisdom was reckoned as foolishness. This is a theory, a hypothetical, but one day God can answer this question. My guess is that God will agree that had Solomon obeyed Him he would have been blessed with discovering the industrial revolution.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is no reason why the US cannot be an exporter of energy.

But back to the pending "ice age" we faced decades ago. How did we fix that? What was the solution? How much did it cost?

Decades ago? What are you talking about?

There is some thought that as the ice in the Arctic melts it will cause a mini ice age in Europe. This is due to the fact that fresh water is less dense than salt water and therefore will not sink and that in turn will cause the ocean currents to be short circuited.

I don't know if "ice age" or "mini ice age" is the best term as no one that I am familiar with is suggesting glaciers a km thick, but massive snowfall is not at all unlikely. But while this is happening in Europe you can also expect the equatorial regions to get much hotter and probably see a massive die off in the ocean.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP has brought up some good points and questions. Have you ever studied ancient Greek/Roman Math, Science, and Engineering?

Many of our "modern" discoveries, post Renaissance era, actually built upon their work. In other words, remove centuries of wars, sinful corruptions, and religious evils (E.g. the RCC, idolatry, Mohammedism, etc.) from the equation, and who knows how much more quickly mankind would have advanced.

Obviously man has spent more time going backwards than going forward.

The Steam engine is an incredibly important discovery, pivotal in human history. But that does not mean it was some kind of flash of inspiration like Einstein's spectacular year or Newton's theory of gravity. The concept of steam being able to power mechanical devices was known for at least two thousand years prior to the steam engine.

Why the delay? You needed equipment that most people did not have access to, you needed someone who could afford to tinker and experiment without the constant pressure to feed themselves, and you needed an economy where this invention would be more than some carnival attraction. There have only been a few times in history when we had all of these combined. Heron's inventions were merely carnival attractions.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well he seems to be pulling it out of somewhere. And there's not many options.

For quite a while I was accused on this forum of "parroting WL". It has been quite a while since anyone suggested that. Maybe a search on LSM website under Solomon

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Wow, very scientific.

So a calculation of the warmest year, including data from thousands of cities is thrown out for a calculation of the warmest city, basically one thermometer in central park?



You can't have it both ways. You can't say that one thermometer in Central Park rules out climate change whereas hundreds of thousands of them over the last hundred years are not relevant.

When I was a kid it was unthinkable that the Arctic Ice sheet would melt during the summer. No more.



For all you budding scientists out there do you know why they chose to measure CO2 levels in Hawaii?

ZNP, even by scientific standards there is a selection process about where to collect measurements from. That is understood, but I think the concern was more about the data manipulation and how it is expressed/over stated. Scientists have an agenda to tell a story that convinces government/industry etc to support them.

Scientists should listen to engineers more, like Ohio, particularly about these matters of climate change. Many engineers I know disagree with global warming. It's not because they are against science or are stupid, but because they see things differently. Somehow engineers are not blinded by cognitive bias because they are trained to be pragmatic. Remember, engineers make stuff, not scientists. Through experience, engineers have a better idea of how the world works than scientists in some lab looking into a petri dish.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Decades ago? What are you talking about?

There is some thought that as the ice in the Arctic melts it will cause a mini ice age in Europe. This is due to the fact that fresh water is less dense than salt water and therefore will not sink and that in turn will cause the ocean currents to be short circuited.

I don't know if "ice age" or "mini ice age" is the best term as no one that I am familiar with is suggesting glaciers a km thick, but massive snowfall is not at all unlikely. But while this is happening in Europe you can also expect the equatorial regions to get much hotter and probably see a massive die off in the ocean.

Back in the late 60's and early 70's all I heard was the next Ice Age would end mankind, caused by smokestacks and tailpipes. So ... you never heard that? You never heard that mankind was to be exterminated in a great block of ice in 10,000 years just like the extinct wooly mammoth of the last ice age.

What happened? The earth got a little cooler, scientists panicked and projected doom and gloom. Things turned around without costing a penny.

Now we have the opposite happening.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Well bro ... why all the drama?

If Christians were doing this, you would be all over it.

Why is it all the liberal news outlets, which you handily espouse, are so silent on this?

Do you agree with this evil and perverted chauvinist practice? Sounds like it.

And why is it when some conservative like me brings up these dangerous "habits" of Muslams, like terrorism and FGM, you get so upset?

This evil religious practice is worse than barbaric and cultic.

And you want to bring these folks into the US?

These young girls need asylum and these Quacks need an electric chair!

This post seems to display that you are way more upset than I am.

I'm now wondering if you think hell is hell because it's full of liberals, and heaven is heaven because it's full of conservatives ... cuz God hates liberals, even tho His Son didn't ... right?

[Ohio]

duplicate post

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Back in the late 60's and early 70's all I heard was the next Ice Age would end mankind, caused by smokestacks and tailpipes. So ... you never heard that? You never heard that mankind was to be exterminated in a great block of ice in 10,000 years just like the extinct wooly mammoth of the last ice age.

What happened? The earth got a little cooler, scientists panicked and projected doom and gloom. Things turned around without costing a penny.

Now we have the opposite happening.

That is because science projects or crystal balls decades into the future (linear projections, often wrong) about the most fearful/worrisome thing that could happen (aka. the research problem they wish to address). Using this as a basis to write a grant to get grant funding. Pose a solution, do some experiments, publish a few papers, stay in a J. O. B.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've also read that the snow/ice pack in the Antarctic is growing.

And I think the people of earth have far more serious concerns than melting snow in the Arctic Circle.

The irony is that the threat of NK nukes is dismissed as "they don't have the tech. yet", while scientists are watching the ice melt, drip drip drip, biting their nails in fear and trembling. No, actually what they are doing is salivating at the thought of getting the next grant approved as they watch the melting ice confirm their hypothesis.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ZNP, even by scientific standards there is a selection process about where to collect measurements from. That is understood, but I think the concern was more about the data manipulation and how it is expressed/over stated. Scientists have an agenda to tell a story that convinces government/industry etc to support them.

Scientists should listen to engineers more, like Ohio, particularly about these matters of climate change. Many engineers I know disagree with global warming. It's not because they are against science or are stupid, but because they see things differently. Somehow engineers are not blinded by cognitive bias because they are trained to be pragmatic. Remember, engineers make stuff, not scientists. Through experience, engineers have a better idea of how the world works than scientists in some lab looking into a petri dish.

Yes, and scientists have fully convinced the Pentagon, so much so that climate change is part of their threat assessments and is taken as a given. For the political leaders to sit in briefings where they are listening to how the Pentagon is going to respond to this change and how it is going to affect US vital interests, and then in public poo poo this as fake news is an excellent example of the two faced politicians that Jesus rebuked when He rebuked the hypocrites.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Yes, and scientists have fully convinced the Pentagon, so much so that climate change is part of their threat assessments and is taken as a given. For the political leaders to sit in briefings where they are listening to how the Pentagon is going to respond to this change and how it is going to affect US vital interests, and then in public poo poo this as fake news is an excellent example of the two faced politicians that Jesus rebuked when He rebuked the hypocrites.

But you are missing the point that Trump et. al. (if you are pointing at him) also lived thru the fake news of the last Ice Age bogey man.

College snowflakes, neither knowing God nor prior bogey men, however, are especially vulnerable.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But you are missing the point that Trump et. al. (if you are pointing at him) also lived thru the fake news of the last Ice Age bogey man.

College snowflakes, neither knowing God nor prior bogey men, however, are especially vulnerable.

Who predicted an ice age based on what evidence?

[zeek]

The so-called "Trump bump" flopped. The economy barely grew in the first quarter, expanding at an annual rate of only 0.7 percent.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Where do you get this stuff.

Why is it that you ask many questions which I answer and when I ask you questions you ignore them, avoid them or all we hear are crickets?

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?


When Paul refers to "the wise" is it reasonable to include Solomon? If so, explain how God made foolish the wisdom of Solomon? If not, please explain why Solomon of all people is not included in "the wise".

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


Regardless of what your interpretation is, I include Solomon with "the wise". Therefore, it is also completely reasonable to ask how Solomon, in his wisdom, did not know God.

The obvious answer is that in his wisdom he ignored God's command to not have dealings with Egypt and Lebanon. He was told the reason he was not to go to Egypt for horses and Lebanon for cedars was because God had given him "a very good land". He would have learned this had he not disobeyed God's command, but in his wisdom he chose to disobey God's command and as a result he did not learn that the Middle East is "a very good land".

Now at this point the only "rich" thing about the Middle East that I think Solomon could have learned but didn't was: oil, concrete and steel.

That is where I got this. From Paul.

It is also reasonable to conclude that all world leaders have followed Solomon's example. Whether we are talking about Gehghis Khan, Hannibal, the various empires, or the Crusades.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Who predicted an ice age based on what evidence?

Well that's not an answerable question. I can's provide sources for what I was taught between 1970-1975, other than giving you the name of my high school and university.

I can say that it was common knowledge, or at least presented that way, that all civilization was going to die in the next 10,000 years due to smokestack and tailpipe emissions. Pictures of extinct frozen wooly mammoths in a block of ice were cited as proof.

I thought you were old enough to have lived thru that scare. The scare tactic hysteria was prompted by political agendas driven by extrapolated climate data.

Hence, it is understandable why I am a little skeptical of scientific theories coupled with political mandates, but ole zeek is convinced that it is due to "LC programming." Whatever!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The so-called "Trump bump" flopped. The economy barely grew in the first quarter, expanding at an annual rate of only 0.7 percent.

But Obama was way better for Wall Street, and to reward him, they are willing to pay him $400,000 for his first speech.

Even LIBERALS like Senator Warren are going crazy over this. What a sellout! Laughing all the way to his Wall St. bank.

NEWS FLASH: Obama cashes in on Wall Street

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Well that's not an answerable question. I can's provide sources for what I was taught between 1970-1975, other than giving you the name of my high school and university.

I can say that it was common knowledge, or at least presented that way, that all civilization was going to die in the next 10,000 years due to smokestack and tailpipe emissions. Pictures of extinct frozen wooly mammoths in a block of ice were cited as proof.

I thought you were old enough to have lived thru that scare. The scare tactic hysteria was prompted by political agendas driven by extrapolated climate data.

Hence, it is understandable why I am a little skeptical of scientific theories coupled with political mandates, but ole zeek is convinced that it is due to "LC programming." Whatever!

Not answerable? As I recall it, even in the '70s when there was far less a consensus about climate change among the scientists who study it than there is today, most of the scientists studying the phenomenon were more concerned with global greenhouse warming.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Well that's not an answerable question. I can's provide sources for what I was taught between 1970-1975, other than giving you the name of my high school and university.

I can say that it was common knowledge, or at least presented that way, that all civilization was going to die in the next 10,000 years due to smokestack and tailpipe emissions. Pictures of extinct frozen wooly mammoths in a block of ice were cited as proof.

I thought you were old enough to have lived thru that scare. The scare tactic hysteria was prompted by political agendas driven by extrapolated climate data.

Hence, it is understandable why I am a little skeptical of scientific theories coupled with political mandates, but ole zeek is convinced that it is due to "LC programming." Whatever!

Climate is a very complex set of variables. If the Earth warms, ice melts and the sea rises (all of which we have seen) then fresh water will be dumped into the ocean. It takes time for the fresh water to mix. During that time it will either shut off the ocean currents taking heat to the poles or else slow it down. Either way the thought is that the equatorial regions will heat up while the poles actually get colder. But as I said "mini ice age" is probably a very poor description of what will take place. Rather "hundred year blizzard" is probably more accurate.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/10/europe...e-snow-record/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ne...ansport-chaos/

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Not answerable? As I recall it, even in the '70s when there was far less a consensus about climate change among the scientists who study it than there is today, most of the scientists studying the phenomenon were more concerned with global greenhouse warming.

He wanted answers about things I was taught 40-45 years ago, and I am supposed to provide sources?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The irony is that the threat of NK nukes is dismissed as "they don't have the tech. yet", while scientists are watching the ice melt, drip drip drip, biting their nails in fear and trembling. No, actually what they are doing is salivating at the thought of getting the next grant approved as they watch the melting ice confirm their hypothesis.

NO, Russia, and other nations, are planting their flags on the newly exposed land. Along with them the oil companies, that new about global warming 20 years ago but sat on it, are seeking new resources found as the arctic ice melts.

Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

He wanted answers about things I was taught 40-45 years ago, and I am supposed to provide sources?

When an observer can't answer basic questions about a phenomenon, the accuracy of their recollection becomes doubtful as in this instance.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why is it that you ask many questions which I answer and when I ask you questions you ignore them, avoid them or all we hear are crickets?

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?


When Paul refers to "the wise" is it reasonable to include Solomon? If so, explain how God made foolish the wisdom of Solomon? If not, please explain why Solomon of all people is not included in "the wise".

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


Regardless of what your interpretation is, I include Solomon with "the wise". Therefore, it is also completely reasonable to ask how Solomon, in his wisdom, did not know God.

The obvious answer is that in his wisdom he ignored God's command to not have dealings with Egypt and Lebanon. He was told the reason he was not to go to Egypt for horses and Lebanon for cedars was because God had given him "a very good land". He would have learned this had he not disobeyed God's command, but in his wisdom he chose to disobey God's command and as a result he did not learn that the Middle East is "a very good land".

Now at this point the only "rich" thing about the Middle East that I think Solomon could have learned but didn't was: oil, concrete and steel.

That is where I got this. From Paul.

It is also reasonable to conclude that all world leaders have followed Solomon's example. Whether we are talking about Gehghis Khan, Hannibal, the various empires, or the Crusades.

Well bro ZNP I have to say that your harebrained notions sure are entertaining.

But I wouldn't worry about God making Solomon foolish. My concern is the scribes. Cuz up until Gutenberg the copies of scripture depended on the scribes. And because of the foolishness of the scribes we can't depend upon the Bible being inerrant.

Solomon and his foolishness is long gone. But the foolishness of the scribes had lasting effects ... even up to today. We can't even depend on 1 Corinthians 1:20 being accurate according to the autograph original because of them.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why is it that you ask many questions which I answer and when I ask you questions you ignore them, avoid them or all we hear are crickets?

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?


When Paul refers to "the wise" is it reasonable to include Solomon? If so, explain how God made foolish the wisdom of Solomon? If not, please explain why Solomon of all people is not included in "the wise".

Why do I not respond to your questions? Because you aren't responding to mine. And because you make your questions and comments indecipherable.

I mean, I can put numbers in front of text that reads like something from the Bible. That doesn't make it into anything or make it relevant to the discussion. Without a full reference, you are just being a jerk.

Yes, a jerk.

I know this verse/passage generically, so I can comment on it — generically. But it has not be given an "home" so I cannot tell you how you misrepresented its context. And it is almost an assured thing that you did. Otherwise you would have provided enough to establish its context.

It refers to the wisdom of the world being made foolish. But there is no implication in the excised part what is being talked about. It is doubtful that the purpose is to declare that wisdom concerning manufacturing and other business operations was intended to be befuddled. Rather that the kind of wisdom that man considers that gets him to his ultimate ends is not really wisdom. It is foolishness because the ultimate ends are God's. It is irrelevant whether you do or don't think Solomon's wisdom might be included in that, mostly because it is not suggesting that man is simply foolish and incapable of anything in the worldly sense. Rather that man is incapable in the Spiritual sense. And building mines and smelting copper just aren't part of the conversation in "20," wherever that is.

There is nothing to explain about whether Solomon's wisdom should or should not be considered. It is an irrelevant strawman. This verse/passage makes no comment on whether Solomon/Israel was on the cusp of an industrial revolution. And if you manage to be right, you are arguing that whatever there really was that could have been close to it was so thoroughly messed-up by God (in a sort of Tower of Babel way) that no one can prove or disprove it. Therefore you think you can just say it and make it stick.

That is such a Leeism if there ever was one. You know, if we didn't already have Lee to mess-up the understanding of the Bible, we could have drafted you for the job. And since he has died, no one is trying to create new Leeisms. Maybe you should apply.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

When an observer can't answer basic questions about a phenomenon, the accuracy of their recollection becomes doubtful as in this instance.

I was never an "observer" of climate change, neither then, nor now. Where I live the weather is always changing, hence the local saying, "don't like the weather? ... just wait a minute."

I answered all the basic questions. Here is how things have changed from Wikipedia ...

Global cooling was a conjecture during the 1970s of imminent cooling of the Earth's surface and atmosphere culminating in a period of extensive glaciation. This hypothesis had little support in the scientific community, but gained temporary popular attention due to a combination of a slight downward trend of temperatures from the 1940s to the early 1970s and press reports that did not accurately reflect the full scope of the scientific climate literature, which showed a larger and faster-growing body of literature projecting future warming due to greenhouse gas emissions. The current scientific opinion on climate change is that the Earth has not durably cooled, but underwent global warming throughout the 20th century

The scientific community gets to have it both ways. They taught global cooling decades ago, and now say they did not. Amazing then how it made it into my university curriculum. Another website identified global cooling as media driven. Wikipedia proved my point.

Good reason to be skeptical of both science and the media. But for some folks around here, the old saying "in God we trust" is replaced by "in science and the mainstream media we trust."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Why do I not respond to your questions? Because you aren't responding to mine. And because you make your questions and comments indecipherable.

I mean, I can put numbers in front of text that reads like something from the Bible. That doesn't make it into anything or make it relevant to the discussion. Without a full reference, you are just being a jerk.

Yes, a jerk.

You get asked a direct question and you respond with personal attacks and insults. You have a pattern of this behavior. No one asked you to join the discussion, that was your choice, but once you did it works both ways. You think you can act like some kind of judge and jury and yet have no accountability. In your mind you are "all knowing" and in a position to judge others, and yet when asked a direct question about your post you plead ignorance, a "generic knowledge", and then go into straw man arguments about the tower of babel, etc.

Originally Posted by OBW

I know this verse/passage generically, so I can comment on it — generically. But it has not be given an "home" so I cannot tell you how you misrepresented its context. And it is almost an assured thing that you did. Otherwise you would have provided enough to establish its context.

Solomon violated God's direct command because of his wisdom. He did this to get horses from Egypt and cedars from Lebanon. That was how he built his kingdom in his wisdom.

That is the context, that is the "home".

So then the question is simple,

1. How did God make foolish the wisdom of Solomon?

2. How did Solomon not know God by his "wisdom" in disobeying God's direct command?

"There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the Lord." -- So please explain Solomon rejecting the Lord's command in his "wisdom".

Originally Posted by OBW

It refers to the wisdom of the world being made foolish. But there is no implication in the excised part what is being talked about. It is doubtful that the purpose is to declare that wisdom concerning manufacturing and other business operations was intended to be befuddled. Rather that the kind of wisdom that man considers that gets him to his ultimate ends is not really wisdom. It is foolishness because the ultimate ends are God's. It is irrelevant whether you do or don't think Solomon's wisdom might be included in that, mostly because it is not suggesting that man is simply foolish and incapable of anything in the worldly sense. Rather that man is incapable in the Spiritual sense. And building mines and smelting copper just aren't part of the conversation in "20," wherever that is.

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

There is no doubt, regardless of your political affiliation, that the wisdom of this world that has resulted in an unsustainable industrial economy is coming to nought. So please, speak the wisdom of the Lord to us, where did we go wrong?

Originally Posted by OBW

There is nothing to explain about whether Solomon's wisdom should or should not be considered. It is an irrelevant strawman. This verse/passage makes no comment on whether Solomon/Israel was on the cusp of an industrial revolution. And if you manage to be right, you are arguing that whatever there really was that could have been close to it was so thoroughly messed-up by God (in a sort of Tower of Babel way) that no one can prove or disprove it. Therefore you think you can just say it and make it stick.

You are missing the point. According to Paul God has made foolish the wisdom of this world. This should be universally true. However, it is perfectly acceptable process to examine this in specific examples. You can choose any example you want. It is clear that the world is heading for a cliff. Turn on the news and you can see that with threats of a war with a nuclear power (N. Korea) and many more examples.

But to test this you need to look at something that is universally viewed as "the wisdom of this world". I have chosen Solomon. Solomon is synonymous with wisdom. 31 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom; and now something greater than Solomon is here.

This is a man who had "the wisdom of the world". Yet when he chose to disregard the Lord's command he put his wisdom up against the Lord's. So then, how was that "wisdom" made foolish?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Solomon violated God's direct command because of his wisdom. He did this to get horses from Egypt and cedars from Lebanon. That was how he built his kingdom in his wisdom.

That is the context, that is the "home".

So then the question is simple,

1. How did God make foolish the wisdom of Solomon?

2. How did Solomon not know God by his "wisdom" in disobeying God's direct command?

The context of this scripture in I Cor 1.20 should be the prevailing Greek wisdom which Paul addresses in opposition to His gospel in the rest of the chapter.

But I agree with you that OBW's insults are uncalled for.

Where's a good MODA when you need one?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The context of this scripture in I Cor 1.20 should be the prevailing Greek wisdom which Paul addresses in opposition to His gospel in the rest of the chapter.

But I agree with you that OBW's insults are uncalled for.

Where's a good MODA when you need one?

1cor

1. Reproved them of their sin in holding up some leaders as superior to others.

The reason is they placed their faith in the wisdom of men.

The Corinthians were immature, fleshly, and their work was going to be burnt up.

Paul warned them no to think of others more highly than that which is written that no one be puffed up for one against the other.

10We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

This is the “home” in which Paul shares that “God made foolish the wisdom of the world” because “the world by wisdom knew not God”.

I use Solomon as an example of this to illustrate the principle. A man that others “placed their faith in his wisdom”. I would add that the work he did that came out of his rebellion will be burnt up.

Why did he take all those concubines and go to Egypt and go to Lebanon? He despised the land that was given to him. There cannot be any dispute that he did not fully appreciate the richness of the land given to him. As a result of his wisdom he never did get to know the riches of that land.

This is Paul's burden, he wants us to know and appreciate Christ and not be distracted with the "wisdom of the world" which is nothing but a distraction and deception.

It is poetic and ironic that the man known as "the wisest man on earth" would be the man responsible for leading us down the path to Armageddon.

I realize that is a very big leap for many. But everyone should be able to see that Solomon led Israel down a path that led to the Babylonian empire rolling in and seizing them 700 years later. Had he submitted to God's command of a self imposed embargo they would have taken a different path. For 700 years they would have been forced to supply their own needs with whatever they had available. Ironically it was the embargo act of 1807 that led to the US discovering the industrial revolution. When you realize you need to be economically independent it leads to invention, innovation and industrialization.

It is the same with the church. If they lean on the world, TV, Hollywood, Rock singers, etc it is a path that is unsustainable and will lead to your work being burnt up. An enforced embargo to be self sufficient -- that is the idea behind 1Cor 14 -- "whenever you come together each one has".

19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

This is a story that has been repeated ad infinitum, not just by WL and WN. The posers, the frauds, the wannabe apostles are "puffed up" like balloons in a Macy's day parade. MOTA, Super Apostle, they are "wise in Christ", they are "strong", they are "honorable".

When you look at human history those are always the frauds. It is the guy who is working with his own hands, being reviled, being persecuted, suffering with a vision.

The vision is that "this is a good land, a rich land". But Solomon was not the guy being reviled, being persecuted, suffering with this vision as he worked with his own hands. Had he been that person the whole earth would have been blessed. But he is by no means the only one, anymore than WL is the only fraud.

This is the way of the world, the whole thing is a pretense. It only works if everyone buys into the "wisdom" of those taking the lead. If you expose that it is a sham, their whole life's work about to go up in smoke, then you will see the barren teeth of the snake spitting poison.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where's a good MODA when you need one?

Like Trump. He only punishes those that's critical of him. haha

But maybe ... just maybe ... us hell bound liberals always stick together.

Not saying OBW is a liberal. He seems more of a centrist. But centrists are considered liberals to those on the far right.

But liberals out here have an out. We're use to being in a cult. So just jump into the JW cult, and there's no hell to be sent to. Maybe that explains my JW friend. He's a liberal.

Sorry guys, for not jumping OBW. Actually I'm behind and haven't even read the offense yet. So don't know if he needs jumping.

Who knows, I might agree with him. After all, I am the author of "harebrained notions." Tho I meant it in all love.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Why do I not respond to your questions? Because you aren't responding to mine. And because you make your questions and comments indecipherable.

I mean, I can put numbers in front of text that reads like something from the Bible. That doesn't make it into anything or make it relevant to the discussion. Without a full reference, you are just being a jerk.

Yes, a jerk.

I know this verse/passage generically, so I can comment on it — generically. But it has not be given an "home" so I cannot tell you how you misrepresented its context. And it is almost an assured thing that you did. Otherwise you would have provided enough to establish its context.

It refers to the wisdom of the world being made foolish. But there is no implication in the excised part what is being talked about. It is doubtful that the purpose is to declare that wisdom concerning manufacturing and other business operations was intended to be befuddled. Rather that the kind of wisdom that man considers that gets him to his ultimate ends is not really wisdom. It is foolishness because the ultimate ends are God's. It is irrelevant whether you do or don't think Solomon's wisdom might be included in that, mostly because it is not suggesting that man is simply foolish and incapable of anything in the worldly sense. Rather that man is incapable in the Spiritual sense. And building mines and smelting copper just aren't part of the conversation in "20," wherever that is.

There is nothing to explain about whether Solomon's wisdom should or should not be considered. It is an irrelevant strawman. This verse/passage makes no comment on whether Solomon/Israel was on the cusp of an industrial revolution. And if you manage to be right, you are arguing that whatever there really was that could have been close to it was so thoroughly messed-up by God (in a sort of Tower of Babel way) that no one can prove or disprove it. Therefore you think you can just say it and make it stick.

That is such a Leeism if there ever was one. You know, if we didn't already have Lee to mess-up the understanding of the Bible, we could have drafted you for the job. And since he has died, no one is trying to create new Leeisms. Maybe you should apply.

Outside of the jerk remark I see nothing wrong with this post. And since the remark came out of frustration trying to understand bro ZNP I think we should forgive it.

And since I forgave ZNP's "twisted mind" remark, I think he's big enough to forgive this jerk remark.

Agree? or disagree?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Like Trump. He only punishes those that's critical of him. haha

But maybe ... just maybe ... us hell bound liberals always stick together.

And how has Trump punished anyone? Are you serious? Sounds like a serious victim complex.

Liberals have been punishing him since Nov 8.

And long before. They have humiliated him on numerous occasions. Remember that 2011 White House correspondents dinner? Obama roasted and lampooned Trump.

P.S. If I knew I was a "hell bound liberal," I would do something about it. Wouldn't that make sense?

[Ohio]

Did anyone else take notice when the famed New York Times just published its first column by Bret Stephens, the former Wall Street Journal columnist and Pulitzer Prize winner, recently hired as a "conservative" voice. Imagine that a "conservative" voice at the NYT. What is the world coming to? The rest of his "journalistic" comrades became totally unhinged.

So, of all the potential topics to choose from, Bret Stephens chooses Climate Change sprinkled with politics from the recent election. Talk about courage! Anyone think his new colleagues would give him a chance to get settled? No way. It runs counter to their religion. In case you have not noticed, mainstream media defines religious fundamentalism in America. The are the mouthpiece and loudspeakers of religious demagoguery.

Take a look at what he said ...

Last October, the Pew Research Center published a survey on the politics of climate change. Among its findings: Just 36 percent of Americans care “a great deal” about the subject. Despite 30 years of efforts by scientists, politicians and activists to raise the alarm, nearly two-thirds of Americans are either indifferent to or only somewhat bothered by the prospect of planetary calamity.

Why? The science is settled. The threat is clear. Isn’t this one instance, at least, where 100 percent of the truth resides on one side of the argument?

Well, not entirely. As Andrew Revkin wrote last year about his storied career as an environmental reporter at The Times, “I saw a widening gap between what scientists had been learning about global warming and what advocates were claiming as they pushed ever harder to pass climate legislation.” The science was generally scrupulous. The boosters who claimed its authority weren’t.

Anyone who has read the 2014 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change knows that, while the modest (0.85 degrees Celsius, or about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit) warming of the Northern Hemisphere since 1880 is indisputable, as is the human influence on that warming, much else that passes as accepted fact is really a matter of probabilities. That’s especially true of the sophisticated but fallible models and simulations by which scientists attempt to peer into the climate future. To say this isn’t to deny science. It’s to acknowledge it honestly.

By now I can almost hear the heads exploding. They shouldn’t, because there’s another lesson here — this one for anyone who wants to advance the cause of good climate policy. As Revkin wisely noted, hyperbole about climate “not only didn’t fit the science at the time but could even be counterproductive if the hope was to engage a distracted public.”

Let me put it another way. Claiming total certainty about the science traduces the spirit of science and creates openings for doubt whenever a climate claim proves wrong. Demanding abrupt and expensive changes in public policy raises fair questions about ideological intentions. Censoriously asserting one’s moral superiority and treating skeptics as imbeciles and deplorables wins few converts.

None of this is to deny climate change or the possible severity of its consequences. But ordinary citizens also have a right to be skeptical of an overweening scientism. They know — as all environmentalists should — that history is littered with the human wreckage of scientific errors married to political power.

I would have printed some of the "professional" replies to Stephens' first article, but for the most part they were unprintable, even here on the Alt-Left forum of LCD.

But if you are interested you can read an article at News Busters for yourself, not that it would make any difference for their fundamentalist followers.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Outside of the jerk remark I see nothing wrong with this post. And since the remark came out of frustration trying to understand bro ZNP I think we should forgive it.

And since I forgave ZNP's "twisted mind" remark, I think he's big enough to forgive this jerk remark.

Agree? or disagree?

I am sorry that you were insulted by that remark, it was poorly worded by me and I am sorry. I did not mean to imply that you were twisted but rather that your interpretation was all twisted up. So I am sorry about that.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And how has Trump punished anyone? Are you serious? Sounds like a serious victim complex.

Liberals have been punishing him since Nov 8.

And long before. They have humiliated him on numerous occasions. Remember that 2011 White House correspondents dinner? Obama roasted and lampooned Trump.

P.S. If I knew I was a "hell bound liberal," I would do something about it. Wouldn't that make sense?

It is like the joke I heard when I was in England. Liberals are the most caring, considerate, empathetic people on earth. Since they are so gifted surely they would not waste these gifts on Republicans, billionaires, whites, or any of the other privileged classes.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If I knew I was a "hell bound liberal," I would do something about it. Wouldn't that make sense?

"Heaven for climate ... hell for society." - Mark Twain

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would have printed some of the "professional" replies to Stephens' first article, but for the most part they were unprintable, even here on the Alt-Left forum of LCD.

But if you are interested you can read an article at News Busters for yourself, not that it would make any difference for their fundamentalist followers.

Boy, a cult here, a cult there, everywhere a cult cult. Seems people sure like to cult up. Cults on the left, cults on the right.

Trump's following, like Lee's, is clearly a personality cult. Science isn't a personality, but still, scientists, it seems, aren't strangers to culting up.

Seems to me a cause of our problems is our tendency to cult up. Competing cults aren't very productive.

None of this is to deny climate change or the possible severity of its consequences. But ordinary citizens also have a right to be skeptical of an overweening scientism. They know — as all environmentalists should — that history is littered with the human wreckage of scientific errors married to political power.

And we won't mention the history littered with the human wreckage of religious errors married to political power.

Else, bro Ohio will jump me for always being critical of Christianity. And God forbid I would be critical of the RCC.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

"Heaven for climate ... hell for society." - Mark Twain

The NJ is the solution:

1. We could build cities according to this design. This would create a great many jobs, similar to what FDR did. That would respond to those who have lost their good paying jobs and we could become a leader in manufacturing again, only this time we are manufacturing cities.

2. It will deal with the 10 million illegal aliens in a way that is sensible. They cannot jump the line for citizenship, but at the same time they should not be deported. So there needs to be a solution similar to the refuge city in the OT. These 10 million could be offered a deal where they could work building these cities in exchange for a home in the city and a path to citizenship. In this way they would not be taking away anyone's job in any existing city or town.

3. The border with Mexico needs to be secured as that is a concern to tens of millions of Americans. Therefore these cities could be built along that border. The NJ is designed to be extremely efficient with the use of water, so much so that it would be ideal for the SW US.

4. The solution should also be sustainable. The NJ is the most advanced design for sustainability. It is a design that eliminates the need for fossil fuel. We could have cities for millions of Americans that are carbon sinks rather than net emitters. We could once again take the moral high ground.

Trump supporters would be happy, Environmentalists would be happy, Wall Street would be happy, Main Street would be happy.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am sorry that you were insulted by that remark, it was poorly worded by me and I am sorry. I did not mean to imply that you were twisted but rather that your interpretation was all twisted up. So I am sorry about that.

And I'm sorry for the harebrained remark. We're all big boys out here. We can take a few blows here and there. It only makes us try harder to be understood.

And as some wise person said, "Stupid is as stupid does." Let's own up when we're stupid. I didn't deny my twisted brain. Ain't no brain free of being twisted at times ...

I was thinking recently, about a remark a preacher made to me concerning "baptism for remission of sins," and some exception examples I presented in the book of Acts. He said, "Yes there are exceptions in the NT, but I have to teach the rule, not the exceptions, so as not to confuse the flock."

I remember telling him something along the line of : "Shouldn't you teach all of it, the rule and the exceptions? And if the flock is confused that's the way God wants them to be, for making the Bible that way.

I wonder why God wants us to be confused? Maybe so we'll trust in Him. How's that working out for Him?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The NJ is the solution:

1. We could build cities according to this design. This would create a great many jobs, similar to what FDR did. That would respond to those who have lost their good paying jobs and we could become a leader in manufacturing again, only this time we are manufacturing cities.

2. It will deal with the 10 million illegal aliens in a way that is sensible. They cannot jump the line for citizenship, but at the same time they should not be deported. So there needs to be a solution similar to the refuge city in the OT. These 10 million could be offered a deal where they could work building these cities in exchange for a home in the city and a path to citizenship. In this way they would not be taking away anyone's job in any existing city or town.

3. The border with Mexico needs to be secured as that is a concern to tens of millions of Americans. Therefore these cities could be built along that border. The NJ is designed to be extremely efficient with the use of water, so much so that it would be ideal for the SW US.

4. The solution should also be sustainable. The NJ is the most advanced design for sustainability. It is a design that eliminates the need for fossil fuel. We could have cities for millions of Americans that are carbon sinks rather than net emitters. We could once again take the moral high ground.

Trump supporters would be happy, Environmentalists would be happy, Wall Street would be happy, Main Street would be happy.

Wow! The NJ would fix everything! Whoda thunk it?

[zeek]

Bret Stephens: "...much else that passes as accepted fact is really a matter of probabilities."

So we should go with improbabilities? That guy would fit right in on LCD. When the probabilities in question become certainties it will be too late. We are near the tipping point now. That's why we don't have time for Trump's anti-science agenda in the White House.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Bret Stephens: "...much else that passes as accepted fact is really a matter of probabilities."

So we should go with improbabilities? That guy would fit right in on LCD. When the probabilities in question become certainties it will be too late. We are near the tipping point now. That's why we don't have time for Trump's anti-science agenda in the White House.

We've been at the "tipping point" for decades, or so says Ozone Al Gore, our Chief Climate Pimp, who shuttles around the country with his gigantic carbon Footprints.

But what a show he put on when he kissed ole Tipper, proving he was "for real."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And I'm sorry for the harebrained remark. We're all big boys out here. We can take a few blows here and there. It only makes us try harder to be understood.

And as some wise person said, "Stupid is as stupid does." Let's own up when we're stupid. I didn't deny my twisted brain. Ain't no brain free of being twisted at times ...

I was thinking recently, about a remark a preacher made to me concerning "baptism for remission of sins," and some exception examples I presented in the book of Acts. He said, "Yes there are exceptions in the NT, but I have to teach the rule, not the exceptions, so as not to confuse the flock."

I remember telling him something along the line of : "Shouldn't you teach all of it, the rule and the exceptions? And if the flock is confused that's the way God wants them to be, for making the Bible that way.

I wonder why God wants us to be confused? Maybe so we'll trust in Him. How's that working out for Him?

How's that working out for you?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Boy, a cult here, a cult there, everywhere a cult cult. Seems people sure like to cult up. Cults on the left, cults on the right.

Trump's following, like Lee's, is clearly a personality cult. Science isn't a personality, but still, scientists, it seems, aren't strangers to culting up.

Seems to me a cause of our problems is our tendency to cult up. Competing cults aren't very productive.


And we won't mention the history littered with the human wreckage of religious errors married to political power.

Else, bro Ohio will jump me for always being critical of Christianity. And God forbid I would be critical of the RCC.

First of all, the RCC is not part of Christianity, rather Christendom.

But, did you see Trump's "personality cult" at the WH correspondents dinner gushing all over him last night? Fawning like a bunch of lap dogs, same as they did with Obama?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

First of all, the RCC is not part of Christianity, rather Christendom.

But, did you see Trump's "personality cult" at the WH correspondents dinner gushing all over him last night? Fawning like a bunch of lap dogs, same as they did with Obama?

Ha ha, yer a funny guy bro Ohio.

With 1.2 billion the RCC is the very definition of Christianity. All others are alternative christianity.

And journalists have to kiss up, else they get branded fake news. Or Counterfeit News Network.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Ha ha, yer a funny guy bro Ohio.

With 1.2 billion the RCC is the very definition of Christianity. All others are alternative christianity.

And journalists have to kiss up, else they get branded fake news. Or Counterfeit News Network.

Why would you define Christianity by which has the most adherents? Never once is there any such criteria on the NT, in fact having the most adherents would be equivalent to the broad way that leads to destruction.

Narrow is the way and few there be that find it.

Jesus is the way that leads to the Father. A NT definition of "Christianity" would be the few that are on this path to the father.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Bret Stephens: "...much else that passes as accepted fact is really a matter of probabilities."

So we should go with improbabilities? That guy would fit right in on LCD. When the probabilities in question become certainties it will be too late. We are near the tipping point now. That's why we don't have time for Trump's anti-science agenda in the White House.

Clearly you do not like what Trump is doing so please explain to us what he should do. According to you we don't have time for Trump's agenda so please tell us what we must do in the next 4 years that is going to turn this all around. Thanks, the world thanks you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why would you define Christianity by which has the most adherents? Never once is there any such criteria on the NT, in fact having the most adherents would be equivalent to the broad way that leads to destruction.

Narrow is the way and few there be that find it.

Jesus is the way that leads to the Father. A NT definition of "Christianity" would be the few that are on this path to the father.

I define Christianity by the gospel of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those churches which actively preach the gospel of salvation, commonly known as evangelicals. Now there may be unsaved attendants within, but all their leaders will be genuinely born again, knowing and serving the Lord.

That's my defonition. If there is a better one, I'll reconsider it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I define Christianity by the gospel of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those churches which actively preach the gospel of salvation, commonly known as evangelicals. Now there may be unsaved attendants within, but all their leaders will be genuinely born again, knowing and serving the Lord.

That's my defonition. If there is a better one, I'll reconsider it.

There are two very reasonable definitions that are mutually exclusive.

1. Christianity as the followers of Jesus Christ described in the NT.

and

2. Christianity as a work of man.

For those with faith they would see definition 1, for those without they would see definition 2.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There are two very reasonable definitions that are mutually exclusive.

1. Christianity as the followers of Jesus Christ described in the NT.

and

2. Christianity as a work of man.

For those with faith they would see definition 1, for those without they would see definition 2.

Perhaps my definition most closely matches WL's.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Clearly you do not like what Trump is doing so please explain to us what he should do. According to you we don't have time for Trump's agenda so please tell us what we must do in the next 4 years that is going to turn this all around. Thanks, the world thanks you.

Why? Do you think Trump is reading Alt Views? He said "Department of Environmental Protection. We are going to get rid of it in almost every form. We’re going to have little tidbits left, but we’re going to take a tremendous amount out." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...cale-back-epa/ Humanity was already failing to stop climate change before Trump took office. But now our climate is poised to get much, much worse. Off the top of my head I suggest that people who care about the environment need to continue to protest his actions, organize, elect people who care about the environment to Congress at the mid-term election and vote him out of office in 2020. Meanwhile, citizens who care about the environment must encourage elected officials to oppose his assault on environmental protections in every way they can. And, I'm open to better ideas if anybody has any.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Why? Do you think Trump is reading Alt Views? He said "Department of Environmental Protection. We are going to get rid of it in almost every form. We’re going to have little tidbits left, but we’re going to take a tremendous amount out." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...cale-back-epa/ Humanity was already failing to stop climate change before Trump took office. But now our climate is poised to get much, much worse.

I thought you had more brains than this.

Everything Obama did had no impact on our climate?

And now our climate will get much worse?

Are you serious? And why do you think everybody in NY and NE still wants to move to Florida? Cause the climate is so much worse?

I thought you have a few more brains than these campus snowflakes, but now I am beginning to wonder.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought you had more brains than this.

Everything Obama did had no impact on our climate?

And now our climate will get much worse?

Are you serious? And why do you think everybody in NY and NE still wants to move to Florida? Cause the climate is so much worse?

I thought you have a few more brains than these campus snowflakes, but now I am beginning to wonder.

Name calling is what you do best. Obama's biggest crime was occupying the White House while black.

Trump's executive orders go beyond ending protections from the consequences of greenhouse gases. He is crippling the EPA's capacity to protect clean air and clean water. https://www.usnews.com/opinion/op-ed...tal-protection

He's also opening the national parks for all kinds of exploitation and endangered species to extinction. All of which you don't seem to give a **** about as long as your precious soul gets saved.

[awareness]

So since the RCC isn't part of Christianity I can't be accused of being critical of Christianity by be critical of the RCC.

It's a given I can be critical of them venerating the holy foreskin of Jesus for millennia.

I can be critical of the creeds.

I can be critical of the trinity, that they developed.

I can be critical of the canon of the Bible, they developed.

I can be critical of all the changes they made to all the autographs of the books of the Bible, removing confidence in the Bible by removing Biblical inerrancy.

I can be critical of birth control and their position on abortion.

I can be critical of all that and more, without considered being critical of Christianity.

I'll remember this ... and will try not to be critical of Christianity by being critical only of the RCC.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Name calling is what you do best. Obama's biggest crime was occupying the White House while black.

Trump's executive orders go beyond ending protections from the consequences of greenhouse gases. He is crippling the EPA's capacity to protect clean air and clean water. https://www.usnews.com/opinion/op-ed...tal-protection

He's also opening the national parks for all kinds of exploitation and endangered species to extinction. All of which you don't seem to give a **** about as long as your precious soul gets saved.

Name calling? What names? I only challenged you to use your brains. Try thinking outside Obama's liberal bubble.

EPA protecting our air and water??? Like they did in Flint, MI??? Like they did in that Colorado river? Dumping millions of gallons of yellow filth from an old mine??? Did you not see those pictures on this thread above???

Your fanatical religious comments are simply hysterical! Devoid of common sense, whipped up in the frenzy of planet progressivism, yes, but still funny!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So since the RCC isn't part of Christianity I can't be accused of being critical of Christianity by be critical of the RCC.

It's a given I can be critical of them venerating the holy foreskin of Jesus for millennia.

I can be critical of the creeds.

I can be critical of the trinity, that they developed.

I can be critical of the canon of the Bible, they developed.

I can be critical of all the changes they made to all the autographs of the books of the Bible, removing confidence in the Bible by removing Biblical inerrancy.

I can be critical of birth control and their position on abortion.

I can be critical of all that and more, without considered being critical of Christianity.

I'll remember this ... and will try not to be critical of Christianity by being critical only of the RCC.

Please!

You're sounding like some petulant child. Why are you so obsessed with holy foreskins? Is that your latest discovery from the dark ages?

Since when has anyone ever been able to stop your endless criticisms of all things Christian, and your subtle promotion of Muslams?? You probably loved that Mooslam comedian at the WH correspondents dinner.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Why? Do you think Trump is reading Alt Views? He said "Department of Environmental Protection. We are going to get rid of it in almost every form. We’re going to have little tidbits left, but we’re going to take a tremendous amount out." http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...cale-back-epa/ Humanity was already failing to stop climate change before Trump took office. But now our climate is poised to get much, much worse. Off the top of my head I suggest that people who care about the environment need to continue to protest his actions, organize, elect people who care about the environment to Congress at the mid-term election and vote him out of office in 2020. Meanwhile, citizens who care about the environment must encourage elected officials to oppose his assault on environmental protections in every way they can. And, I'm open to better ideas if anybody has any.

Because there are two possible scenarios here.

1. You don't like what Trump is doing because there is a much better path to take which he has chosen not to take. Because he is stupid, or crooked, or lacks insight, whatever. This option shows he is a "bad" president. Which even then is not the issue, the real issue is whether or not he is worse than Hillary Clinton

or

2. You don't like what Trump is doing because the world has become a dangerous and messed up place. However, N. Korea is not because of Trump. ISIS is not because of Trump. Drug Cartels are not because of Trump. Loss of US manufacturing is not because of Trump.


If you do not have a better path for him to take it puts your whiny posts into perspective.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I thought you had more brains than this.

Everything Obama did had no impact on our climate?

And now our climate will get much worse?

Are you serious? And why do you think everybody in NY and NE still wants to move to Florida? Cause the climate is so much worse?

I thought you have a few more brains than these campus snowflakes, but now I am beginning to wonder.

I live in NY and under no circumstances do I want to move to Florida. I find the climate gets better every year. I like to think that Florida is moving to NY.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Name calling? What names? I only challenged you to use your brains. Try thinking outside Obama's liberal bubble.

EPA protecting our air and water??? Like they did in Flint, MI??? Like they did in that Colorado river? Dumping millions of gallons of yellow filth from an old mine??? Did you not see those pictures on this thread above???

Your fanatical religious comments are simply hysterical! Devoid of common sense, whipped up in the frenzy of planet progressivism, yes, but still funny!

Good points.

You can buy a water testing kit for $29 on Amazon.com

Drinking Water Test Kit - 10 Minute Testing For Lead Bacteria Pesticide Iron Copper and More

Test your own water, it is far safer than relying on the EPA to keep you safe from lead in your drinking water.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

So since the RCC isn't part of Christianity I can't be accused of being critical of Christianity by be critical of the RCC.

It's a given I can be critical of them venerating the holy foreskin of Jesus for millennia.

I can be critical of the creeds.

I can be critical of the trinity, that they developed.

I can be critical of the canon of the Bible, they developed.

I can be critical of all the changes they made to all the autographs of the books of the Bible, removing confidence in the Bible by removing Biblical inerrancy.

I can be critical of birth control and their position on abortion.

I can be critical of all that and more, without considered being critical of Christianity.

I'll remember this ... and will try not to be critical of Christianity by being critical only of the RCC.

Obviously a "holy foreskin" is not Christian. Sounds more like something you would use to identify the true Buddha.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I live in NY and under no circumstances do I want to move to Florida. I find the climate gets better every year. I like to think that Florida is moving to NY.

That's right.

Every year, half of Florida moves back to NY in April.

I have not found a better climate where I am. A few years ago we had two of the coldest winters on record, with horrible windchills. I lost nearly all my evergreens -- junipers and cedars. How do evergreens die in the winter? It was a boon for local landscapers. So much for "global warming."

Oh ... I must have forgot. Colder winters are "climate change."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's right.

Every year, half of Florida moves back to NY in April.

I have not found a better climate where I am. A few years ago we had two of the coldest winters on record, with horrible windchills. I lost nearly all my evergreens -- junipers and cedars. How do evergreens die in the winter? It was a boon for local landscapers. So much for "global warming."

Oh ... I must have forgot. Colder winters are "climate change."

It is really not hard to understand. What is really happening to the climate is not "warming" because we still have 2 ice caps and the Earth is still tilted at 23.5 degrees so that the North and South pole have 6 months of night and months of day. Until the ice melts you will not see much warming, what we have seen is negligible to what we will see once the ice melts.

No what is happening right now is the weather is getting more energetic. You are adding energy to the system, not just heat. This can result in bigger and more frequent storms. It seems to me natural disasters are much more frequent on the news, and they only show domestic ones, you have to search the internet to see what happened in Asia or Europe.

So you see bigger hurricanes and tornadoes, more frequent hurricanes and tornadoes, more floods, hail, more droughts and yes bigger blizzards. All of these suggest a more "energetic" weather system.

[ZNPaaneah]

So here is one idea where you could easily bring manufacturing jobs to US.

The market price for a 32GB iPhone 7 is $649, yet the phone reportedly costs Apple just $225 to build. That's according to a new report from IHS Markit, which found the materials cost around $219.80, plus an additional $5 to assemble.

Shipping from China adds less than $1 to the total cost.

Now these phones can be assembled with robots and that would be a factory that could operate in the US on a similar cost to China. Why not have a law that there is no State sales tax on an item manufactured in that state. Apple could cut the total cost of an iPhone sold in NY State by 8%, or $52 if they were assembled in NY. Plus you would eliminate the $1 shipping cost. Therefore you would have $58 per iPhone for assembly to be competitive with China. Since you can use robots that seems very realistic.

Now that we have 3d printers, robots, and the ability to order via the internet it seems this would be a very viable option for a wide range of products.

Also it would be very simple for someone in Pennsylvania, NJ, Vermont, Connecticut, NH or Mass to come to NY to make these purchases. Apple would not need 52 factories. You put 7 factories around the country in strategic places. Same would be true for cars, appliances, electronics and a whole host of other items.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It is really not hard to understand. What is really happening to the climate is not "warming" because we still have 2 ice caps and the Earth is still tilted at 23.5 degrees so that the North and South pole have 6 months of night and months of day. Until the ice melts you will not see much warming, what we have seen is negligible to what we will see once the ice melts.

No what is happening right now is the weather is getting more energetic. You are adding energy to the system, not just heat. This can result in bigger and more frequent storms. It seems to me natural disasters are much more frequent on the news, and they only show domestic ones, you have to search the internet to see what happened in Asia or Europe.

So you see bigger hurricanes and tornadoes, more frequent hurricanes and tornadoes, more floods, hail, more droughts and yes bigger blizzards. All of these suggest a more "energetic" weather system.

I agree that we have more "energetic" weather.

God is warning us, sending a message to humanity. This earth, like our own bodies, is not our permanent home. The weather and climate change are in His hands. All the regulations in the world are not go to improve planet earth.

A difficult pill to swallow for some of my fellow posters who thought Obama was their climate and planet messiah.

As bad as climate chamge is this plague of Asian stink bugs. As I type this, one landed on my arm. Yuck!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So here is one idea where you could easily bring manufacturing jobs to US.

The market price for a 32GB iPhone 7 is $649, yet the phone reportedly costs Apple just $225 to build. That's according to a new report from IHS Markit, which found the materials cost around $219.80, plus an additional $5 to assemble.

Shipping from China adds less than $1 to the total cost.

Now these phones can be assembled with robots and that would be a factory that could operate in the US on a similar cost to China. Why not have a law that there is no State sales tax on an item manufactured in that state. Apple could cut the total cost of an iPhone sold in NY State by 8%, or $52 if they were assembled in NY. Plus you would eliminate the $1 shipping cost. Therefore you would have $58 per iPhone for assembly to be competitive with China. Since you can use robots that seems very realistic.

Now that we have 3d printers, robots, and the ability to order via the internet it seems this would be a very viable option for a wide range of products.

Also it would be very simple for someone in Pennsylvania, NJ, Vermont, Connecticut, NH or Mass to come to NY to make these purchases. Apple would not need 52 factories. You put 7 factories around the country in strategic places. Same would be true for cars, appliances, electronics and a whole host of other items.

ZNP for commerce secretary!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I agree that we have more "energetic" weather.

God is warning us, sending a message to humanity. This earth, like our own bodies, is not our permanent home. The weather and climate change are in His hands. All the regulations in the world are not go to improve planet earth.

A difficult pill to swallow for some of my fellow posters who thought Obama was their climate and planet messiah.

As bad as climate chamge is this plague of Asian stink bugs. As I type this, one landed on my arm. Yuck!

I view the Earth like the placenta where a human embryo develops. As the baby grows the placenta will become uninhabitable until the baby has to born. "Intifada" means birth pains, Jesus also likened the end of the age to birth pains.

Woman was cursed after sinning that she would have birth pains. This is just another reason why I say that although the destination hasn't changed, the path we have taken did change as a result of sin. If you want you can claim that Solomon's sins was due to Adam's sin.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Because there are two possible scenarios here.

1. You don't like what Trump is doing because there is a much better path to take which he has chosen not to take. Because he is stupid, or crooked, or lacks insight, whatever. This option shows he is a "bad" president. Which even then is not the issue, the real issue is whether or not he is worse than Hillary Clinton

or

2. You don't like what Trump is doing because the world has become a dangerous and messed up place. However, N. Korea is not because of Trump. ISIS is not because of Trump. Drug Cartels are not because of Trump. Loss of US manufacturing is not because of Trump.


If you do not have a better path for him to take it puts your whiny posts into perspective.

We were on a better path under Obama. Science based policy is better than a greed based one. I suggested things an individual citizen can actually do to contribute to political change. Unless you have the ear of Washington power elite, your grand plans are pipe dreams.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP for commerce secretary!

I would also point out that this budgets 11x more money for the cost to assemble it in the US than in China. In China the typical worker at an iPhone factory (who works 60 hours a week) makes $450 a month. However, many of the processes are not automated because the labor in China is cheaper.

So it seems to me very reasonable that they could assemble this here using robots and hiring fewer people whose job is to keep the robots working, a guard dog and a person to feed the dog.

Which creates an entirely new problem. All of these manufacturing jobs in China, Asia, and the 3rd world are about to be replaced with robots. What are you going to do with all of these unemployed men?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Because there are two possible scenarios here.

1. You don't like what Trump is doing because there is a much better path to take which he has chosen not to take. Because he is stupid, or crooked, or lacks insight, whatever. This option shows he is a "bad" president. Which even then is not the issue, the real issue is whether or not he is worse than Hillary Clinton

or

2. You don't like what Trump is doing because the world has become a dangerous and messed up place. However, N. Korea is not because of Trump. ISIS is not because of Trump. Drug Cartels are not because of Trump. Loss of US manufacturing is not because of Trump.


If you do not have a better path for him to take it puts your whiny posts into perspective.

Oh but evangelicals love Trump. Just listen to Jerry Falwell Jr. :

Jerry Falwell Jr. Calls Donald Trump The ‘Dream President’ For Evangelicals
Liberty University president also said GOP moderates “make my blood boil.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000009

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

We were on a better path under Obama. Science based policy is better than a greed based one. I suggested things an individual citizen can actually do to contribute to political change. Unless you have the ear of Washington power elite, your grand plans are pipe dreams.

Obama's "path" was to bring the US to nothing, and to end Christianity and Israel by replacing them with a moderate form of Islam.

You want to talk about "greed," read one of the Clinton bios.

Obama cared little for science or business. On the golf course, Trump meets with business and gov't leaders, while Obama met with Hollywood elites, and sports and rock stars. After James Foley got his head cut off by ISIS, Obama could hardly break away from golfing with former Miami Heat center Alonzo Mourning. What sacrifice! The only path he knew was the golf path.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh but evangelicals love Trump. Just listen to Jerry Falwell Jr. :

Jerry Falwell Jr. Calls Donald Trump The ‘Dream President’ For Evangelicals
Liberty University president also said GOP moderates “make my blood boil.”

If some Christian leader had supported Hillary or Obama, you then would also use that to condemn all evangelicals.

At least you are consistent in this regard!

[Ohio]

I saw this article with the following spiteful quote against Christians.

Perhaps, in some way, this helps to understand our dear brother awareness.

The day I am at [movie star, and highest paid actress in the world, Jennifer] Lawrence’s house also happens to be the day after the infamous county clerk Kim Davis gets out of jail, where she had been sent for defying a court order requiring her to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Lawrence brings it up, calling her that “lady who makes me embarrassed to be from Kentucky.”

Kim Davis? “Don’t even say her name in this house,” she shoots back, and then goes into a rant about “all those people holding their crucifixes, which may as well be pitchforks, thinking they’re fighting the good fight. I grew up in Kentucky. I know how they are.”

Hateful, spiteful, demeaning rhetoric leveled against someone willing to suffer for righteousness sake, yet too great of an opportunity for the richest b***h in Hollywood to pass up and trash all Evangelical Christians.

See what the Lord Jesus would say, "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If some Christian leader had supported Hillary or Obama, you then would also use that to condemn all evangelicals.

At least you are consistent in this regard!

Yes I would. Not for voting, for which ever (both bad) but for politicking.

I see no evidence in the NT that Jesus and/or his followers ever politicked.

Jesus said to render, but said his kingdom is not of this world. There's no admonishment to politick whatsoever.

Jerry Falwell Jr. is a numbskull, riding on the coattails of his father. Anyone listening to him is a sucker.

But sola scriptural's are trained to be suckers by their Bible. They are an easy mark for Falwell Jr. and Trump.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obama's "path" was to bring the US to nothing, and to end Christianity and Israel by replacing them with a moderate form of Islam.

You want to talk about "greed," read one of the Clinton bios.

Obama cared little for science or business. On the golf course, Trump meets with business and gov't leaders, while Obama met with Hollywood elites, and sports and rock stars. After James Foley got his head cut off by ISIS, Obama could hardly break away from golfing with former Miami Heat center Alonzo Mourning. What sacrifice! The only path he knew was the golf path.

Obama isn't perfect. None are. But your view of him is paranoid and hysterical. When Trump plays golf it's good, when Obama played golf it was bad. Did Obama defile the sanctity of golf as a symbol of white male privilege? You subjected yourself to hours of the demonization of Obama by right wing media. It seems that Alt views may be your only exposure to viewpoints outside your white nationalist echo chamber.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh but evangelicals love Trump. Just listen to Jerry Falwell Jr. :

Jerry Falwell Jr. Calls Donald Trump The ‘Dream President’ For Evangelicals
Liberty University president also said GOP moderates “make my blood boil.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000009

Jerry Falwell does not speak for me, and I am "evangelical".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes I would. Not for voting, for which ever (both bad) but for politicking.

I see no evidence in the NT that Jesus and/or his followers ever politicked.

Jesus said to render, but said his kingdom is not of this world. There's no admonishment to politick whatsoever.

Jerry Falwell Jr. is a numbskull, riding on the coattails of his father. Anyone listening to him is a sucker.

But sola scriptural's are trained to be suckers by their Bible. They are an easy mark for Falwell Jr. and Trump.

How can you say that? Matthew clearly "Politic'd" as well as Zacchaeus. If you prohibit or condemn Christians for being involved in Politics then that is unrighteous. As US citizens they have every right to be politically active. Jimmy Carter had a public profession of faith. Do you condemn him for also getting involved in politics?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Obama isn't perfect. None are. But your view of him is paranoid and hysterical. When Trump plays golf it's good, when Obama played golf it was bad. Did Obama defile the sanctity of golf as a symbol of white male privilege? You subjected yourself to hours of the demonization of Obama by right wing media. It seems that Alt views may be your only exposure to viewpoints outside your white nationalist echo chamber.

You said we were "on the right path" with Obama. You need to clarify that. The path we were on with Obama for the last 8 years has led us to the day when Trump took over. On that day we had the biggest debt ever in our history. The debt has grown at a rate that cannot possibly continue unchecked without us going bankrupt. North Korea is testing nuclear missiles capable of hitting the US. ISIS didn't exist 8 years ago, and today is wreaking havoc. Detroit looks worse than a 3rd world country. Flint was poisoning its people. By all scientific accounts we had passed the point of no return for climate change, regardless of what happens in the next 4 years the world will see catastrophic climate change, unless of course nuclear war annihilates us first.

What exactly was the "right path" that we were on that Trump has changed? According to the pundits the only thing he has accomplished was to get his Supreme court nominee approved. Are you seriously claiming that this is some kind of catastrophic choice for America? There are 9 Supreme court justices and they don't make laws, how could one choice have doomed us so?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How can you say that? Matthew clearly "Politic'd" as well as Zacchaeus. If you prohibit or condemn Christians for being involved in Politics then that is unrighteous. As US citizens they have every right to be politically active. Jimmy Carter had a public profession of faith. Do you condemn him for also getting involved in politics?

Because he was a Christian I voted for Carter.

Are you saying Matthew and Zacchaeus acted like Falwell Jr. does today ; actually politicking for Trump? That they went around politicking for Roman leaders? Where's your evidence for that?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Because he was a Christian I voted for Carter.

Are you saying Matthew and Zacchaeus acted like Falwell Jr. does today ; actually politicking for Trump? That they went around politicking for Roman leaders? Where's your evidence for that?

Everyone knew that they were aligned with the Romans which is why they were hated.

I have no idea what they did after following Jesus, if they continued in their profession. But we do know that the fishermen continued to fish, we do know that the disciples had to continue to support themselves. We do know that Zacchaeus never said he was going to stop working, only that he would repay those he defrauded. There were Roman centurions that had faith in Jesus, what should they step down from their position after believing?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Obama isn't perfect. None are. But your view of him is paranoid and hysterical. When Trump plays golf it's good, when Obama played golf it was bad. Did Obama defile the sanctity of golf as a symbol of white male privilege? You subjected yourself to hours of the demonization of Obama by right wing media. It seems that Alt views may be your only exposure to viewpoints outside your white nationalist echo chamber.

That's so funny. Spoken like a true progressive liberal.

So, in your mind, I must be a racist if I complain that Obama goes golfing. It can't be about job accountability, who he's with, how often, or who's dying because of his policies. Remember the "red line?"

With you, it's all about race, isn't it. That's why Bernie was not allowed to win. And that's why the Democrats will never nominate another white man -- unless he is gay -- because then he has to be accountable, whereas critics of Obama and Hillary can always be labeled racists, homophobes, xenophobes, and misogynists.

Straight from the Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals play book.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes I would. Not for voting, for which ever (both bad) but for politicking.

I see no evidence in the NT that Jesus and/or his followers ever politicked.

Jesus said to render, but said his kingdom is not of this world. There's no admonishment to politick whatsoever.

Jerry Falwell Jr. is a numbskull, riding on the coattails of his father. Anyone listening to him is a sucker.

But sola scriptural's are trained to be suckers by their Bible. They are an easy mark for Falwell Jr. and Trump.

There you go again.

If you believe the Bible -- sola scriptural -- then you must be a sucker, cause you have been trained to be that way.

So says awareness.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You get asked a direct question and you respond with personal attacks and insults.

Because your question had nothing to do with the question I asked you that got your response. You pretty consistently turn from one random thing to another. In your mind there is a link. But you don't share it. So it comes across as a bunch of random things.

In a much earlier post I ask you "where do you get this stuff" to which you replied that you did say where and then provide two homeless verses along with some comment about what Paul was talking about but never provided any basis for tying the verses (and their missing contexts) to the fantasy about an impending industrial age.

The problem is that no matter how you do or don't make those lost verses fit into the discussion, that doesn't answer how it is that you think they were almost there. You gave 6 criteria which were mostly not met. So I had to ask where you were getting it. The article you linked to didn't suggest Solomon was on the verge of an industrial revolution. Just that they had been mining in a particular area at a particular time and might account for evidence of earlier mining in mines in what is now Jordan.

Nothing about near industrial revolutions.

You got a personal attack because it seems to take a sledge hammer to make you pull your head out of you little lalaland of conjecture.

You don't like it when I stick my head into any particular conversation you are engaged in. Yet you carry on in a public forum and I have questions. I don't necessarily have answers. But I do have questions. When you make some of your more fantastic statements, I am generally curious how you get there. But you seldom answer my question. If you ask other, unrelated questions, it is not responsive to my questions, so I ignore them and return to my questions. You are the one who has made grand claims about so many things. In this case the status of industry during the time of Solomon.

And whether or not Paul's verses about the wisdom of man are in any way relevant to what was happening in the days of Solomon, it doesn't answer the question of how it is that you think that there actually was a near industrial revolution.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

You are missing the point. According to Paul God has made foolish the wisdom of this world. This should be universally true.

First, what did that point have to do with Solomon and industrial revolutions?

But to ask yet another question, why is it a "should be universally true" when even Paul's comment was not about wisdom in simply every context? This kind of thinking is what gets people convinced that man should not own cars or refrigerators. That is the notion that everything in the Bible is always all-encompassing. Contexts become irrelevant. To read this particular (still homeless) verse your way, the "wisdom" of 1+1=2 is foolishness because of God's wisdom. But only in the sense that it is simple math and not Organic Chemistry. It is still true. But if you are talking about man's wisdom as to the right way to live when it is not according to God's way, then the outcome is different.

And even if God did something to confound things back in Solomon's day, it didn't make the mechanical knowledge of the day wrong or "foolishness," but rather just made it "lost" until some later date. Sort of like the tower of Babel. The confounding of he languages was to separate the men of knowledge from each other so they could not achieve what they were preparing to do. But that is not the same thing as "wisdom made foolish." It is wisdom confounded but not invalidated.

[OBW]

Continuing on the prior discussion:

Originally Posted by ZNP Post 926

Solomon violated God's direct command because of his wisdom. He did this to get horses from Egypt and cedars from Lebanon. That was how he built his kingdom in his wisdom.

That is the context, that is the “home”

Did you really not understand that the context in question was the “20,” not Solomon and anything he did. Where was the “20 from and what was its context.

I finally did see the context of the verse (which I had never made any comment on before you threw it at me in an irrelevant way). It is in 1 Corinthians. And Ohio got it right. It was not a reference to simply anything that might be called wisdom, but to specific prevailing Greek wisdom of the day that Paul was addressing.

Your comment about Solomon violating God’s direct command because of his wisdom is an interesting presumption. Since it was an error of what is sometimes thought of the wisest man, and it is one of disobedience, not of outthinking God then finding out later you were wrong, it is not likely that Solomon’s wisdom was really in play here. More like one of his lapses in wisdom.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Because your question had nothing to do with the question I asked you that got your response. ..In a much earlier post I ask you "where do you get this stuff" to which you replied that you did say where and then provide two homeless verses along with some comment about what Paul was talking about but never provided any basis for tying the verses (and their missing contexts) to the fantasy about an impending industrial age.

OK -- simple logical progression.

1. I believe that God is omniscient. Standard belief for most fundamental Christians though I suppose it is up for interpretation exactly what that means to each individual.

2. I also feel, based on the evidence I have seen, that pollution from the industrial revolution is going to result in catastrophic climate change. By that I mean millions of climate refugees (a process I believe has already begun), spread of tropical diseases like Zika and Dengue (a process I believe has already begun), much more energetic weather resulting in more storms, droughts, etc (a process I believe has already begun) and finally just like a sinking sail ship we will have a negative feedback loop of methane hydrates bubbling up into the atmosphere (a process that has started with a vengeance).

So then, it is a simple question -- What should we do and when should we have done it? If the Titanic hits an iceberg and sinks it is a reasonable question that will be asked at some point, when did they make a mistake and what was it. Perhaps there were a comedy of errors, perhaps it was one error.

It seemed clear to me, after eliminating various possibilities, that the error was made prior to Jesus coming because the prophecies indicated catastrophic climate change was already where we were headed. I realize that it is hard for anyone to wrap their head around climate change due to the industrial revolution being inevitable 1800 years prior to the industrial revolution, but if this post were 200 pages I think I could make a strong case that this is not a crazy idea. The damage from fossil fuel is not simply from burning it, but from the greed, and corruption that results from "he who has the gold makes the rules". The world and its system was already condemned at that point.

I realized while reading the OT that the boundaries of the land given to the children of Israel was not Israel as we know it. He gave them two boundaries -- Tigris Euphrates river and the Mediterranean. That means He gave them the entire Middle East. That is really a very good land if you know about the oil, and is nothing but a wasteland if you don't. I also knew that oil was first discovered in the Middle East based on some reading about "pitch" in the OT (a tar pit that has bubbled up to the surface).

So this goes back to the initial question -- if God is omniscient did He know how much oil was in the Middle East (yes) and is this what He was referring to when He said it was a very good land? Hind sight is 20/20, perhaps our sight today is not as good as God's was back then, but if you today, knowing what you know, said that "The Middle East is a very rich land" would anyone not be including the oil in that equation?

I also knew that every Empire went through Israel -- Roman, Greek, Medo Persian, Babylonian, etc. If Israel had been much, much stronger than they were prior to the Babylonian empire then it would have essentially meant world peace and prosperity thousands of years earlier.

Therefore the key was this 700 year period from Solomon to the Babylonian invasion. With that in mind read Psalm 81.

So then, my question was in what way did we not listen to God? What did we not do that led to us not being blessed? It is quite obvious that Solomon disobeyed God when he went to Lebanon for Cedars and Egypt for horses. But that seemed wise, what was the point of that law in the first place? Every single successful nation has bought into the concept of "world trade", why forbid it?

But when you look at the factors that resulted in the industrial revolution a self imposed embargo is a key factor. A country had to supply their needs with the resources they had, this resulted in them coming up with a better, more efficient way to produce the goods.

Read the archaelogical reports on Solomon's mine, he had a major issue in transporting the ore. I think it is a certainty that he would have come up with something similar to the ancient train found in Greece. His mining operation was already on an industrial scale but he also had a problem housing his workers. Egypt had already discovered the use of lime and gypsum in making mortar, so it is not unreasonable that Solomon would have discovered concrete.

Once you have those two things it is just a matter of improving on the model.

So then, Solomon was on the cusp of discovering the industrial revolution, why didn't he? Because he violated God's law and went to Lebanon for Cedars and Egypt for horses. If he had not done that he would have. Maybe not in Solomon's lifetime, but if he honored the principle of making do with what God had given them the Israelites would have invented the steam engine hundreds of years before the Babylonians invaded. It has been about 180 years since we discovered the steam engine. Imagine just for a second that Israel had discovered the steam engine 180 years before the Babylonians invaded.

Now I ask you, if you can imagine that do you think an omniscient God could have imagined that?

And that brings us back to the so called "homeless verses" in 1 Cor.

It is the standard temptation in the church -- go to the elite universities for the cedars and go to Hollywood for the horsepower. Get a pastor from Princeton and get a music ministry that can pull in the crowds. He points out that his is "puffed up", that these works will burn up and leave you with nothing, and that the apostles are nothing like this. They are the "off scouring", they poor, laboring, no gold rings, no fancy cars.

If you bring in the "specialists" then you will turn all the saints into spectators. If you kill their function you never discover the riches hidden in them. Instead "whenever you come together each one has..."

But in this context he says that "God has made foolish the wisdom of the world" -- not future tense but past tense. What is he talking about? This should be a Bible reference, otherwise Paul should give us more explanation. This may not be the "only" interpretation but I think it is reasonable that Solomon's wisdom to disobey God's law can be looked at in light of this verse.

So then, once again let's just blow your mind. Solomon does not disobey God. He needs transportation, he tells the Israelites to figure it out, no one is getting horses from Egypt. They invent a "train". Perhaps cats with wheels running on a concrete track pulled by mules.

They need houses for the workers, they make concrete houses. The nation sticks to this law and they invent the steam engine after a few hundred years. Then 180 years later the Babylonians ride in on horses with bow and arrows and find Israel with trains, high rise apartments, cars, airplanes, etc. That was the destiny of those who obeyed God's command. It would have been the foolishness of living the crucified life.

But instead, what is our destiny now due to Solomon's "wisdom"? War due to one empire after the next. Pollution from industrialization due to 7 billion people on this planet burning fossil fuel. Human society being pushed off a cliff.

God turned the "wisdom of the world" into foolishness because the foolishness of God is wiser than men.

[Ohio]

How do you get 700 years from Solomon (1000BC) to the Babylonian invasion (600BC)?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How do you get 700 years from Solomon (1000BC) to the Babylonian invasion (600BC)?

Erroneous memory I guess. 400 years, not 700.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

Continuing on the prior discussion:
Did you really not understand that the context in question was the “20,” not Solomon and anything he did. Where was the “20 from and what was its context.

I finally did see the context of the verse (which I had never made any comment on before you threw it at me in an irrelevant way). It is in 1 Corinthians. And Ohio got it right. It was not a reference to simply anything that might be called wisdom, but to specific prevailing Greek wisdom of the day that Paul was addressing.

"Prevailing Greek wisdom" -- The Greek Empire spread primarily through a spread of ideas, math, architecture, literature, democracy, etc. Lots of little city states similar to Greek city states sprang up around the mediterranean like frogs around a pond (Plato's description). That was their wisdom.

This was turned to foolishness when the Roman's gave these people citizenship. No one even thought of this as a commodity prior to the Romans. No one thought someone living in a different country, speaking a different language could have a dual citizenship.

But that little secret defeated the Greek empire.

It is just like McDonald's. The initial hamburger joint was all about innovative ideas. They made hamburgers better than anyone else. But when Ray Kroc figured out the business is not about making a better hamburger but about real estate then the original owners were put out of business and made to look foolish.

This is the revelation behind the NJ, it is not about a city, it is about real estate. Donald Trump wants to pay off the US debt by selling park land. Park land is the least valuable land. You want to make money selling land, sell the land that a city is built on. Imagine for a moment that you could build a large city, similar in population to Houston, but in West Texas, on the Mexican border, on land that is dirt cheap. Now imagine that your city has a population density similar to downtown Manhattan. So you have a population of 2 million in 4 square miles.

You could sell the immediate surround land for $1 billion, and you could own the land that the city is built on, leasing it, similar to Hong Kong. You would then have the assets and capital to go and build a second city, etc.

If you have 9 million illegal aliens and they were given asylum in these newly built cities you could easily build 10 cities on this border and populate them with over a million each. Instead of franchising hamburger joints you could franchise cities, pay off the US debt, deal with the illegal aliens, strengthen your border, and create many new jobs. You also control the US government, a huge bureaucracy that can house all kinds of agencies to get these cities off the ground. You could incentivize businesses like google to build a server farm and other businesses. It is no longer about the tax revenue but about owning the land. If you own the land you will get the revenue.

All you need is a design that can thrive in a place with very little water -- the key secret of the NJ. I used to live in Odessa Texas, that is where I learned there is no shortage of water in the desert, the real problem in the desert is not lack of water, but rather evaporation. If you can prevent evaporation you will have no problem with water.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There were Roman centurions that had faith in Jesus, what should they step down from their position after believing?

Yes they should have. The Romans were keeping Jesus from being the rightful King of the Jews. Staying with them is staying with the killers of Jesus.

And none of them were politicking like Falwell Jr. There's zero evidence that they did. Your imagination about it is cute, but not realistic according to scripture.

[awareness]

!!! BREAKING NEWS !!!

Congress shot down Trumps budget cuts to science and the NIH, and instead of cuts, increased funding ... beyond Obama's increases.:
https://www.statnews.com/2017/05/01/...ongress-trump/

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes they should have. The Romans were keeping Jesus from being the rightful King of the Jews. Staying with them is staying with the killers of Jesus.

And none of them were politicking like Falwell Jr. There's zero evidence that they did. Your imagination about it is cute, but not realistic according to scripture.

Once again you take a single person, Falwell, and cast aspersions on entire populations. Being involved in politics does not require you to do it like "Falwell".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Bret Stephens: "...much else that passes as accepted fact is really a matter of probabilities."

So we should go with improbabilities? That guy would fit right in on LCD. When the probabilities in question become certainties it will be too late. We are near the tipping point now. That's why we don't have time for Trump's anti-science agenda in the White House.

Obviously you are not interested in how real science differs from today's pseudo-science promoted by progressives.

Here's just a few comments to Bret Stevens' many bashers ..

What, though, had Stephens actually said wrong to deserve all this hate? (Read the comment thread below his tweet. The Times’s Red Guard shows no mercy).

In short: nothing.

Such facts as there were in his comment piece – it was opinion, not a science report – were pretty unimpeachable, not to say uncontroversial. He quoted the IPCC – generally used by liberals as the gold standard of climate science.

He quoted another (more acceptably green/left-wing) New York Times columnist Andrew Revkin: “I saw a widening gap between what scientists had been learning about global warming and what advocates were claiming as they pushed ever harder to pass climate legislation.”

But there was really nothing in the piece that was shockingly contentious or factually dubious. Why then this brutal monstering?

Because climate change is a religion where heretics must burn. At least that’s how progressives think – and it’s the progressives who still dictate the terms of the debate: they’ve hijacked the seats of learning, the newspapers, the TV, the schools, the political arena, the corporations, Wall Street…

Any form of dissent from the Green Religion, however trivial, has to be punished with fire and brimstone as a dread warning to anyone else tempted to diverge from the True Path.

This is not the first time this has happened.

Stephens’s experiences are strikingly similar to that of another very moderate skeptic, Roger Pielke Jr, who was recruited as a columnist for Nate Silver’s website 538 but was then ditched when readers objected to his non-alarmist views and his unhelpful references to data, truth and real-world evidence.

Facts are very important to progressive journalists and readers. But only when they are the right sort of facts. Otherwise they’re WrongThink.

It's so sad to see my ultra-liberal friends here, having long chucked the truths of the Gospel along with the rest of the Recovery, only to embrace a radical Green Religion far more pernicious than the one they left. Their new religion worships Mother Earth, having replaced that of Father God, and has all the same trappings of LC exclusivity in the name of "science," their new holy "bible."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Once again you take a single person, Falwell, and cast aspersions on entire populations.

Like I said, the liberal playbook is all about labeling their opponents, casting aspersions, using isolated examples to denigrate the whole.

They do it all the time, but then get this false sense of appall, when I return the "compliment" to them.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Like I said, the liberal playbook is all about labeling their opponents, casting aspersions, using isolated examples to denigrate the whole.

They do it all the time, but then get this false sense of appall, when I return the "compliment" to them.

Think about this, Awareness does not like the "politicking" that Falwell does. Therefore the solution is that no Christian can be involved in the political process. Can't be a senator, or congressman, or governor, or mayor, etc. Who would come up with a rule like that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Think about this, Awareness does not like the "politicking" that Falwell does. Therefore the solution is that no Christian can be involved in the political process. Can't be a senator, or congressman, or governor, or mayor, etc. Who would come up with a rule like that?

Not only that, "Thou shalt not even vote."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Once again you take a single person, Falwell, and cast aspersions on entire populations. Being involved in politics does not require you to do it like "Falwell".

I thought I made that plain by not including voting in the politicking. And I'm not just speaking of one evangelical like Falwell. Franklin Graham, and many other evangelicals have been pitching Trump.

In fact, you are the only evangelical I know that don't support Trump. Here in Ky I'm surrounded by evangelical Trump supporters.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I thought I made that plain by not including voting in the politicking. And I'm not just speaking of one evangelical like Falwell. Franklin Graham, and many other evangelicals have been pitching Trump.

In fact, you are the only evangelical I know that don't support Trump.

Here in Ky I'm surrounded by evangelical Trump supporters.

What about Jennifer Lawrence and Ashley Judd?

Have all the rich, liberal, democratic elites abandoned you?

And why do evangelicals have to forfeit their liberties and 1st Amendment rights in your religion?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obviously you are not interested in how real science differs from today's pseudo-science promoted by progressives.

Here's just a few comments to Bret Stevens' many bashers ..

It's so sad to see my ultra-liberal friends here, having long chucked the truths of the Gospel along with the rest of the Recovery, only to embrace a radical Green Religion far more pernicious than the one they left. Their new religion worships Mother Earth, having replaced that of Father God, and has all the same trappings of LC exclusivity in the name of "science," their new holy "bible."

Oh, those hell bound liberals again ... everything they do, say, and think, is of the devil.

But that aside, what's wrong with reducing our carbon footprint? What's wrong with converting to renewable energy? Is it a nefarious evil plan of the liberals and scientists? Are they secretly trying to kill us?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I thought I made that plain by not including voting in the politicking. And I'm not just speaking of one evangelical like Falwell. Franklin Graham, and many other evangelicals have been pitching Trump.

In fact, you are the only evangelical I know that don't support Trump. Here in Ky I'm surrounded by evangelical Trump supporters.

I have no issue with Christians, or Evangelicals, or Pastors being vocally active in politics, but they don't speak for me, they don't speak for Christ.

Just like Paul said, as citizens we have certain rights.

If Christians were prohibited from voting and speaking, then they would be ignored and their concerns irrelevant during an election.

But just because someone is a christians and says they support a certain candidate doesn't have anything to do with me. I disagree with Christians about many things.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh, those hell bound liberals again ... everything they do, say, and think, is of the devil.

But that aside, what's wrong with reducing our carbon footprint? What's wrong with converting to renewable energy? Is it a nefarious evil plan of the liberals and scientists? Are they secretly trying to kill us?

There is nothing "wrong" with it as long as you realize there are other legitimate concerns as well. What is wrong with wanting a job? Are the liberals trying to kill us? Why is it immoral to want a secure border? Since when is it immoral to put a lock on your front door?

ISIS is trying to kill us, so what is wrong with wanting to defeat them?

There are multiple issues, they are all legitimate.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's so sad to see my ultra-liberal friends here, having long chucked the truths of the Gospel along with the rest of the Recovery, only to embrace a radical Green Religion far more pernicious than the one they left. Their new religion worships Mother Earth, having replaced that of Father God, and has all the same trappings of LC exclusivity in the name of "science," their new holy "bible."

Bahahahaha .. this coming from the most exclusive contributor on AltV's.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh, those hell bound liberals again ... everything they do, say, and think, is of the devil.

But that aside, what's wrong with reducing our carbon footprint? What's wrong with converting to renewable energy? Is it a nefarious evil plan of the liberals and scientists? Are they secretly trying to kill us?

Working class conservatives have been struggling to reduce their carbon footprints for decades, then these Green Religion Fundamentalists come along, dump their Hummers for Teslas and start preaching to the rest of us.

It's these guys like Ozone Al Gore who need to reduce their carbon footprint. But wait ... isn't Ozone Al the High Priest of Mother Earth planet worship? But I want a "FOOTPRINT" like he's got, with his mansion, limo, and private jet!!!

Awareness, am I that wrong for seeing thru the hypocrisy here? Wealthy elitist liberal fundamentalists preaching their fire, brimstone, and rising oceans to the rest of us in order to reduce OUR emissions?

Just think how much Obama's FOOTPRINT grew, every time he went golfing in Hawaii on Air Force One with his entourage of 500 secret service agents? But who am I to complain just because I can't afford to golf down the street?

Then they whip up these $50K/year college kids and 3rd generation welfare recipients (neither of which ever held a real job) to go protest those "evil" capitalistic institutions like banks in big cities.

Can't you see thru this hypocrisy? Why is it so hard for you? You can't keep blaming Kentuckian Evangelicals for this mess.