stay or go....

[james73]

I guess I've been in various churches enough to know that there is no such thing as a perfect church. And, since I find myself in this strange collection of brothers and sisters called the Local Church, perhaps I need to just get on with it. Find a way to make it work.

Here's the main objections for me:

1.LC/LSM feels like a pyramid scheme, a very well-oiled unimpeachable pyramid scheme so well implemented, self-perpetuating and self-protecting it will never fall. I don't want to bring new people into that.

2. I am now having a real problem with traditional Christian beliefs. My view of God is my own and it doesn't make sense to anyone I have tried explaining it to - that's not to say I'm closed to other ideas, I just don't want to others to say my view is invalid, that it's "wrong", because how can a feeling be wrong?

Well, imagine trying to describe your experience of God if you had no religious background, no knowledge of what religion was, if you'd never heard of "God" or "Jesus" or "Bethlehem" (By that I mean, never even heard the most basic well known bible story). And you'd start talking to a Buddhist and he'd say "oh yes, you are talking about impermanence" or whatever and you talk to a Christian and he'd say "now you're talking about God" and you'd talk to an LCer and he'd say "ah yes, now you're talking about the centrality of God's Economy"- would any of them listen and try to put their experiential knowledge, rather than their religious knowledge, in your frame? See how their experience matches with yours, without trying to name it or label it or identify it? Not to abandon their own beliefs, but just to see, just from a empathetic perspective. In fact, more likely, and this is what happens in my group, they say, "ah what you are probably feeling is X, because Y, and this is because it says so in Z, chapter 1, verse 6, footnote 4". Which would be fine, except they totally miss the point of my sharing, repeatedly, and always, without fail, take on this pitying look as if I've been with their group for 18 months and STILL DON'T GET IT.

I have thought about leaving Christianity altogether. But I do feel, there is God, there is something loving and lovely and we have this wonderful opportunity in Christianity to share this on a regular basis with like-minded people. Given the diversity of human minds, surely those who believe there is "one God" are about as like-minded as one could EVER hope to meet! So why can't we draw the line there, instead of saying "yes, there is one God and he has to be Triune, and he has to have an Economy and he has to speak only through this book"?

Well of course that is very naive. But you know what I'm talking about here? I guess it's Christian problem plus LC scam feeling. Of course as someone here said recently, the creeds have value, historically and as a sum of experience of a great many Christians far more spiritual than I who have wrestled with these very thoughts for far longer periods of time. But still, I come back time and time again to the same question, every week, ever home meeting: should I stay or go. Because staying makes me unhappy, yet I feel going is the easy way out. Of course I can find a another church, there are hundreds here, but maybe it's so easy it feels wrong, somehow...

Thanks for reading if you're still here... it helps just typing it out, but if anybody's got anything to share on this, great!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by james73

I guess I've been in various churches enough to know that there is no such thing as a perfect church. And, since I find myself in this strange collection of brothers and sisters called the Local Church, perhaps I need to just get on with it. Find a way to make it work.

Love the saints, but discard the system. A system that perceives everyone not taking the way of the ministry is in division. Discard such concepts. Rather edify with Romans 15:7

Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.

All Christians in your city and mine are to be accepted; to be received.

[aron]

Originally Posted by james73

would any of them listen and try to put their experiential knowledge, rather than their religious knowledge, in your frame? See how their experience matches with yours, without trying to name it or label it or identify it? Not to abandon their own beliefs, but just to see, just from a empathetic perspective.

James, I like your posts. Unfortunately my reply will be inadequate, but I will answer anyway. I am going to answer from my studies in the Psalms thread, which perhaps you have read a few of the posts.

Look at Psalm 69, quoted by the disciple John in chapter 2 of his gospel (I know, I am doing chapter-and-verse stuff, but bear with me for one second) "Zeal of YOUR house has eaten ME up", or "Desire for YOUR house has consumed ME". This verse, like so much of the Psalms, is written in the first person. The Psalms show us the dialog of the Son with the Father, and the Father with the Son. Nobody can fully analyze the extent of this relationship. It is a mystery, ultimately. All we can do is 'skim' it. Of course we believers try to burrow as deep as we can, but still our experience is probably quite limited.

Did the apostle John write, "Only this verse is relevant. The rest of it are natural thoughts of a fallen, well-meaning sinner." Did he or anyone else suggest this? No? Then why do we think the Bible, or our gospel, is such a closed book? Rather, it is open, waiting for us to explore.

Now, how does this relate to your question? I believe that at its heart, Christianity is a kind of 'mystery religion' which we cannot dissect like a dead frog. The relationship of a very human Son with His very heavenly Father is a "vast, exhaustless portion forever ours to enjoy", as WL put it. But it's going to resist our intellectual encroachment and analysis, the way understanding interstellar space flight is probably go evade crickets, for at least the indeterminate future. You can best, only "feel" it, by finding the Spirit behind the words like "zeal", and "desire" and "consume" etc. Put it this way: maybe the cricket will get on a rocket, but doubtful it will "understand" what is going on. Just find the rocket and enjoy the ride.

I have been a christian for a while and I am just beginning to realize how little I understand either Jesus Christ or His Father or the Holy Spirit, save for perhaps a small beginning. It is an unexplored continent in front of us. Anyone who says they've got it figured out, I think Jesus would say to them what He told the Pharisees: "You say that you see, but your blindness remains".

So I admit my blindness and press on. It can be a lot of fun! Many mistakes, but Jesus told us that if we forgive others the Father will forgive us.

Okay, that was the easy part -- the Christian faith. What about the whole "church" thing? There, I cannot help you, other than to say, "Find the Holy Spirit and then hold on for the ride." What church that ride takes you to or through, I cannot predict. Just find the connection between the Man Jesus Christ and His and our Father God in heaven, which connection is none other than "the Spirit of reality" (whatever that is). I believe that you will never understand this Spirit, in this lifetime. Just find and follow. The Holy Spirit will involve other people, because God loves people. If there is any 'fact' of the Christian faith it is that God loves people, and we believe that at least one Person (Jesus Christ) loved the Father back just as much. The rest of us are trying to follow.

If you are "in the Spirit", whomever God brings you, Baptist, Atheist, Buddhist, or Heavy Metal Emergent, you will probably relate, at least somewhat. Because God put you there, God put your "neighbor" there, and God said, "Love your neighbor as yourself". God didn't just say "Love the neighbor who shares your doctrines." I don't think doctrines bring love. Only love brings love.

Peace and bon voyage.

[awareness]

God be with you James.

I'm close with many that have come out of the local church. Some dumped Christianity altogether ... some mixed it with other religions. One, a former elder in the LC, now considers himself a Native American Shaman. And Buddhism seems to be popular among exLCers.

And then there are those like on this forum, that drop back to evangelicalism, and fundamentalism. I grew up in that. So it doesn't appeal to me.

It isn't easy bro James, coming out of the LC. Each of us different. I can't give you any advice whatsoever. It's not my place. You'll have to figure out this one on your own.

I went the way of critical thinking, or thinking for myself. That is one option. Abandoning reason opens up to all kinds of other absurdities, besides the LC.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Look at Psalm 69, quoted by the disciple John in chapter 2 of his gospel (I know, I am doing chapter-and-verse stuff, but bear with me for one second) "Zeal of YOUR house has eaten ME up", or "Desire for YOUR house has consumed ME". This verse, like so much of the Psalms, is written in the first person. The Psalms show us the dialog of the Son with the Father, and the Father with the Son. Nobody can fully analyze the extent of this relationship. It is a mystery, ultimately. All we can do is 'skim' it. Of course we believers try to burrow as deep as we can, but still our experience is probably quite limited.

Great post awareness.

We sure are on a crazy ride. Here's another thought. Imagine how crazy is the ride from God's point of view. He is willing to take the journey with each and every child of God, before and after their birth in Christ, right at their side. As the holy and righteous God in eternity, He never even got His hands dirty, but now He is in the muck of sinful men every day all over planet earth. Nobody in their right mind would do such a thing.

Must be love ... as you said.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by james73

And, since I find myself in this strange collection of brothers and sisters called the Local ...perhaps I need to just get on with it. Find a way to make it work.

I tried that for 13 years but it didn't work for me.

Here's the main objections for me:

1.LC/LSM feels like a pyramid scheme, a very well-oiled unimpeachable pyramid scheme so well implemented, self-perpetuating and self-protecting it will never fall. I don't want to bring new people into that.

I know that feeling. The product is the LSM. If you don't want to bring people into it, why are you there?

2. I am now having a real problem with traditional Christian beliefs. My view of God is my own and it doesn't make sense to anyone I have tried explaining it to - that's not to say I'm closed to other ideas, I just don't want to others to say my view is invalid, that it's "wrong", because how can a feeling be wrong?

Your viewpoint doesn't make sense to anyone or it doesn't make sense to people in the Local Church? I think I understand what you are saying so far.

Well, imagine trying to describe your experience of God if you had no religious background, no knowledge of what religion was, if you'd never heard of "God" or "Jesus" or "Bethlehem" (By that I mean, never even heard the most basic well known bible story). And you'd start talking to a Buddhist and he'd say "oh yes, you are talking about impermanence" or whatever and you talk to a Christian and he'd say "now you're talking about God" and you'd talk to an LCer and he'd say "ah yes, now you're talking about the centrality of God's Economy"- would any of them listen and try to put their experiential knowledge, rather than their religious knowledge, in your frame? See how their experience matches with yours, without trying to name it or label it or identify it? Not to abandon their own beliefs, but just to see, just from a empathetic perspective. In fact, more likely, and this is what happens in my group, they say, "ah what you are probably feeling is X, because Y, and this is because it says so in Z, chapter 1, verse 6, footnote 4". Which would be fine, except they totally miss the point of my sharing, repeatedly, and always, without fail, take on this pitying look as if I've been with their group for 18 months and STILL DON'T GET IT.

They are programed to frame everything in terms of the LSM.

I have thought about leaving Christianity altogether. But I do feel, there is God, there is something loving and lovely and we have this wonderful opportunity in Christianity to share this on a regular basis with like-minded people. Given the diversity of human minds, surely those who believe there is "one God" are about as like-minded as one could EVER hope to meet! So why can't we draw the line there, instead of saying "yes, there is one God and he has to be Triune, and he has to have an Economy and he has to speak only through this book"?

Some people do draw the line where you are. Keep looking and you will likely find some of them.

Well of course that is very naive. But you know what I'm talking about here? I guess it's Christian problem plus LC scam feeling. Of course as someone here said recently, the creeds have value, historically and as a sum of experience of a great many Christians far more spiritual than I who have wrestled with these very thoughts for far longer periods of time. But still, I come back time and time again to the same question, every week, ever home meeting: should I stay or go. Because staying makes me unhappy, yet I feel going is the easy way out. Of course I can find a another church, there are hundreds here, but maybe it's so easy it feels wrong, somehow...

It depends on what you want. If you like being unhappy, stay. Happiness isn't guaranteed outside the LC either. It isn't necessarily easier than remaining in the church. Being true to yourself isn't always selfish it can mean acting authentically--maintaining personal integrity. That may be the way to true happiness.

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

It depends on what you want. If you like being unhappy, stay. Happiness isn't guaranteed outside the LC either. It isn't necessarily easier than remaining in the church. Being true to yourself isn't always selfish it can mean acting authentically--maintaining personal integrity. That may be the way to true happiness.

I have mentioned this before: there was a "Catholic" writer named Desiderius Erasmus, who was quite critical of the RCC, yet never left. Judging by his writings, he was actually less "unhappy" than Luther. Luther became increasingly venomous over time, yet Erasmus never lost his sense of humor.

And Erasmus had phenomenal light, in my opinion. I read his essay on the three parts of man, written twenty years before Luther "recovered" justification by faith, and 400 years before Mary MacDonough "recovered" the three parts of man. I thought it was an amazing piece of writing.

The soul standeth in the midst between two ways: the flesh crieth upon her on the one side, the spirit on the other side. The spirit saith, God is above thy father: thou art bound to thy father but for thy body only. To God thou art bound for all thing that thou hast. The flesh putteth thee in remembrance, saying: Except thou obey thy father, he will disinherit thee, thou shalt be called of every man an unkind and unnatural child, look to thy profit, have respect to thy good name and fame. God either doth not see, or else dissimuleth and wittingly looketh beside it, or at the least, will be soon pacified again. Now thy soul doubteth The soul doubteth., now she wavereth hither and thither, to whether of either part she turn herself. That same shall she be, that that thing is she went unto. If she obey the harlot, that is to say the flesh (the spirit despised) she shall be one body with the flesh. But if she lift up herself and ascend to the spirit (the flesh set at nought) she shall be transposed and changed to the nature of the spirit. After this manner accustom to examine thyself prudently.

This was from a guy that "stayed" in the RCC!?

[aron]

Although I am pretty sure the LCs would have "quarantined" Erasmus. They seem to be less tolerant than the RCC, of independent thinkers.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Although I am pretty sure the LCs would have "quarantined" Erasmus. They seem to be less tolerant than the RCC, of independent thinkers.

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin stayed in the RCC too, even after being censored by the church for his views, speakings, and writings, on the evolution of consciousness (noosphere, Omaga Point - father of the notion of the internet).

But at least he had sense enough not to entrust his writings to the Vatican. Who would have stuff them into obscurity. So we have his wonderful writings available to us today.

Amen Lord ...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And then there are those like on this forum, that drop back to evangelicalism, and fundamentalism. I grew up in that. So it doesn't appeal to me.

It isn't easy bro James, coming out of the LC. Each of us different. I can't give you any advice whatsoever. It's not my place. You'll have to figure out this one on your own.

I'm not sure where I fall, but like you said, "it ain't easy."

When I left the LC, I basically concluded that I was "damaged goods" and that lowered expectation for the future kind of helped me through the frustrations. Thirty years in a program, specifically designed to "wreck" us for the greater body of Christ, is not something I will ever completely shed.

Perhaps the only common denominator between then and now is God and the Bible (but not those footnotes.) Yet to distill out that which is purely God and purely His word, will never happen. This place has helped, but eventually I have concluded that every believer on earth has been ingesting some chemicals and poisons in his spiritual diet. Some spiritual food has even been genetically modified! But still it is food for all but the purists. As long as we keep "eating" there is hope for us.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thirty years in a program, specifically designed to "wreck" us for the greater body of Christ, is not something I will ever completely shed.

True, Ohio. But God will turn that grit into a pearl. You will carry a beautiful feature into eternity that you would not have had without what you've been through. And through that God will put to shame the ones who sought to hurt you, and bring glory to himself.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by james73

I guess I've been in various churches enough to know that there is no such thing as a perfect church. And, since I find myself in this strange collection of brothers and sisters called the Local Church, perhaps I need to just get on with it. Find a way to make it work...Because staying makes me unhappy, yet I feel going is the easy way out. Of course I can find a another church, there are hundreds here, but maybe it's so easy it feels wrong, somehow...

I think it's entirely normal to want to find a church where you feel you fit in and can be happy. You have a good perspective: no church is perfect. Knowing this you can still find a church that is healthy for your spiritual growth without having unrealistic expectations. There's an imperfect church out there where you can be happy most of time. Nothing wrong with finding it!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

True, Ohio. But God will turn that grit into a pearl. You will carry a beautiful feature into eternity that you would not have had without what you've been through. And through that God will put to shame the ones who sought to hurt you, and bring glory to himself.

Hallelujah!

The Pentecostal believers I know love to cling to the promise of God in Joel 2.25, "And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by zeek

I know that feeling. The product is the LSM. If you don't want to bring people into it, why are you there?

Even the long time local church attendees of 25+ years are faced with this dilemma. There is no comfort of inviting family/friends to a Lord's Day meeting. The Recovery has become so narrow, that the mode of receiving has been reduced to the vision the brothers endorse. As a result the saints get older with out many new ones being added other than the children who are raised in the local churches.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by alwayslearning

I think it's entirely normal to want to find a church where you feel you fit in and can be happy. You have a good perspective: no church is perfect. Knowing this you can still find a church that is healthy for your spiritual growth without having unrealistic expectations. There's an imperfect church out there where you can be happy most of time. Nothing wrong with finding it!

Amen! That has been my experience.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hallelujah!

The Pentecostal believers I know love to cling to the promise of God in Joel 2.25, "And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten."

That is a promise I have reminded the Lord of in many prayers.

[james73]

Wow, thank-you everyone, not sure where to start and sorry if I don't address your individual points, since there was a lot of richness in here!

Certainly Terry's first post was a good reminder to start with - "love the saints and hate the system" is something I have been straying from, as I have found certain saints incredibly annoying. So that's something to address straightway.

Also Aron's point about Erasmus - this is quite touching. If there is the slightest chance I can be an Erasmus by staying (even in the tiniest way by finding more sense about my own spirituality or by helping even just one or two others) then it's worth any potential difficulties that staying will bring.

Awareness on critical thinking - check!

And Aron's point about Heavy Metal Emergent... yes, love that!

I spent a couple of weeks in a Buddhist monastery in Kathmandu learning meditation, and what surprised me was how "religious" the meditation training was, because I always thought Buddhism was essentially without "God" or religious ritual. After the introductory classes, there were regular prayers, mantras, rituals. I asked the monk about it, she said "that's how we do things here. There are many paths to enlightenment, this one is ours". I like that. I wish the LC would say the same thing. "There are many paths to God, but this one is ours". I could respect that, I could get behind that, I could bring someone into that environment. But not when they claim it's exclusively true - as Awareness says, once you abandon your critical thinking, craziness comes in.

Going forward, I didn't come to any conclusion yet, but at least every member here so far didn't say "run for the hills!" - at least I feel if I stay, I have some good strong areas to work on. As for the "pyramid" or "scam" feeling I have, time will tell if that's legitimate or not, but I feel there's plenty I can learn in the short-term, putting that aside.

One other thing to bring up, a lot of my dislike of the LC may come from the personal nature of the HK saints. They are all either 65, 70+ and long time LCers, some with very strong links to Anaheim - or they are 20-somethings, 2nd, 3rd even 4th generation LC children who frankly have a very strange view of the world. (One 30-year old recently said we shouldn't pray until the adults arrived.....he wasn't being facetious or joking... I am nearly 40, so I found that quite funny, and revealing at the same time).

However, when a couple of late-30s brothers from Philippines and Malaysia visited, I had the most wonderful experience with them. Their responses to my questions were more like the responses here on the forum than the unfriendly "you are doing something wrong" hardline LC-doctrine I get from the elders and younger saints in HK. They were genuinely caring and loving, it seemed to me. So maybe it's an age or generational thing too, or a locality problem. Funny that the only two friends I have made in the LC in 18 months are those two brothers from overseas!

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement thus far! Sorry if this thread might become a little disjointed with my big catch-all reply here, but I'm sure it will sort itself out

Peace!

James

[aron]

Originally Posted by james73

If there is the slightest chance I can be an Erasmus by staying (even in the tiniest way by finding more sense about my own spirituality or by helping even just one or two others) then it's worth any potential difficulties that staying will bring.

It is interesting, to me, that neither Luther nor WN seemed to care too much about Paul's dictum in 1 Cor 7:17, that "...each person should live [remain] as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them." I guess that only applied once you got inside THEIR church; it certainly didn't didn't stop them from leaving someone else's church. Erasmus' response to RCC corruption, to criticize but remain there, made me look hard at Paul's words. Whether or not Erasmus was "wrong" or "right" to stay in the RCC, is not mine to judge; but it certainly gave me a different perspective on the Reformation (I grew up as a Protestant).

I myself just left the local churches of Lee one day. Everything was fine. No problems. For some reason, I just wanted to go "back to Christianity" (where I grew up). To this day I can't really explain it; I just left; I never really thought it over much. I guess my point is that everyone is free to do what they want. Once Paul wrote: "Am I not free?" (1 Cor 9:5). One day, many years after leaving the LCs, I began to appreciate the power in that statement: "Am I not free?"

So I would say that you can stay or go -- you are free. Just follow the spirit. Don't think about whether you should stay or not, or whatever. Don't analyze. Just follow the spirit of God. Enjoy God -- He put you wherever you are (again, see 1 Cor 7:17), so just enjoy God's grace. Let Him do the heavy lifting. Yes, you are going to see hypocricy in the local church; you will find it everywhere (including in the mirror). Welcome to planet earth.

Originally Posted by james73

I spent a couple of weeks in a Buddhist monastery in Kathmandu learning meditation, and what surprised me was how "religious" the meditation training was... I asked the monk about it, she said "that's how we do things here. There are many paths to enlightenment, this one is ours". I like that. I wish the LC would say the same thing. "There are many paths to God, but this one is ours". I could respect that, I could get behind that, I could bring someone into that environment. But not when they claim it's exclusively true - as Awareness says, once you abandon your critical thinking, craziness comes in.

One of my favorite sayings from Paul's is this: "For me, to live is Christ". In other words, for me, Jesus is the way; Jesus is my path. For someone else, another thing is their way. I respect everyone else's path. But mine is Jesus Christ.

You know, Jesus taught us to love everyone. I think that this translates very well into "respect". If you don't respect someone else's journey, how can you say that you love them? That doesn't mean that you have to accept all their ideas. But respect is a feeling, not an idea. People can definitely feel whether you respect them and their journey.

And, to me, Paul's "To me, to live is Christ" becomes very important because of that little prepositional phrase "to me" at the beginning. Number one, Paul owns his own journey. It is his journey, his life, his faith. Number two, Paul isn't trying to ram his reality down someone else's throat. He owns it, but he's not going around beating other people up with it. I appreciate that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

You know, Jesus taught us to love everyone. That translates very well into "respect". If you don't respect someone else's journey, how can you say that you love them. That doesn't mean that you have to agree, intellectually, with all of their ideas.

Yes. Just as we can love the sinner and not the sin we can love the believer but not the belief.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes. Just as we can love the sinner and not the sin we can love the believer but not the belief.

One of the greatest expressions I ever saw of this divinely inspired "love", or "respect", or "empathy", or whatever you want to call it, was with Billy Graham the American evangelist. There is a video on YouTube where the American intellectual, humorist, and movie director Woody Allen was interviewing Billy Graham.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_poGsbBgpE

This was in 1969; Woody Allen had a talk show on tv, Billy Graham was in town doing one of his crusades and I guess Allen thought he'd have some fun. Allen is a smart guy, and I am sure he had a hundred arguments about how stupid religion is and how hypocritical Christians are, etc.

So here you have an intellectual skeptic in Woody Allen, and a hostile crowd of Allen's fans, and Graham just blew them away. With arguments? No, with love. You can see the shock on Allen's face, and in his body language, when he "felt" God's great love. Even if his mind rebelled, deep inside he could feel that God is not merely an intellectual proposition to be wrangled over. Clearly they didn't agree on intellectual propositions, but you can see the empathy they both touched, from God. Look at Allen's reaction to Graham's presence. It is pretty powerful.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

So here you have an intellectual skeptic in Woody Allen, and a hostile crowd of Allen's fans, and Graham just blew them away. With arguments? No, with love. You can see the shock on Allen's face, and in his body language, when he "felt" God's great love. Even if his mind rebelled, deep inside he could feel that God is not merely an intellectual proposition to be wrangled over. Clearly they didn't agree on intellectual propositions, but you can see the empathy they both touched, from God. Look at Allen's reaction to Graham's presence. It is pretty powerful.

Great video, thanks aron.

I loved Billy's answer about what was the "worst sin."

Part two is just as good. Billy told Woody that he would make a great evangelist.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by james73

I am nearly 40, so I found that quite funny, and revealing at the same time).

However, when a couple of late-30s brothers from Philippines and Malaysia visited, I had the most wonderful experience with them. Their responses to my questions were more like the responses here on the forum than the unfriendly "you are doing something wrong" hardline LC-doctrine I get from the elders and younger saints in HK. They were genuinely caring and loving, it seemed to me. So maybe it's an age or generational thing too, or a locality problem. Funny that the only two friends I have made in the LC in 18 months are those two brothers from overseas!

James, based on your post you're not much younger than I.
Appears those two brothers were able to offer encouragement without taking the party line. I hope your fellowship with these brothers continues.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

I have mentioned this before: there was a "Catholic" writer named Desiderius Erasmus, who was quite critical of the RCC, yet never left. Judging by his writings, he was actually less "unhappy" than Luther. Luther became increasingly venomous over time, yet Erasmus never lost his sense of humor.

And Erasmus had phenomenal light, in my opinion. I read his essay on the three parts of man, written twenty years before Luther "recovered" justification by faith, and 400 years before Mary MacDonough "recovered" the three parts of man. I thought it was an amazing piece of writing.

The soul standeth in the midst between two ways: the flesh crieth upon her on the one side, the spirit on the other side. The spirit saith, God is above thy father: thou art bound to thy father but for thy body only. To God thou art bound for all thing that thou hast. The flesh putteth thee in remembrance, saying: Except thou obey thy father, he will disinherit thee, thou shalt be called of every man an unkind and unnatural child, look to thy profit, have respect to thy good name and fame. God either doth not see, or else dissimuleth and wittingly looketh beside it, or at the least, will be soon pacified again. Now thy soul doubteth The soul doubteth., now she wavereth hither and thither, to whether of either part she turn herself. That same shall she be, that that thing is she went unto. If she obey the harlot, that is to say the flesh (the spirit despised) she shall be one body with the flesh. But if she lift up herself and ascend to the spirit (the flesh set at nought) she shall be transposed and changed to the nature of the spirit. After this manner accustom to examine thyself prudently.

This was from a guy that "stayed" in the RCC!?

I stayed in the local churches for 13 years. Can you say that wasn't enough?