What's going on in OKC?

Cal · 01-21-2021, 02:12 PM

The glorious Co-workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America are back at it with another post on shepherdingwords.com, this one accusing worker/elder Colley Joseph of heinous offenses. Any one know the details? I plan to make a video about it if I can get some background. Thanks!

https://shepherdingwords.com/letter-...stry-excerpts/

Trapped · 01-21-2021, 02:49 PM

Their accusations are accurate. Colley has been abusive, manipulative, spreading lies, rumors, slander, not showing impartiality, twisting scripture to come to conclusions that are not founded in basic logic, etc. In short - insane. But also right in line with what the local church produces in brothers.....but with a dash of volcanic lunacy mixed in.

The issue is that the co-workers let it drag on for way too long, saints have been absolutely gutted by the toxic environment, rifts, etc that have been caused. But the co-workers were probably waiting to do anything that looks like "taking a stand" until the court case was decided, so that they could put out a conveniently-timed letter that makes it look like they were on the right side of things the whole time.

It's a CYA move. And it's the same old story in the LC - unwilling to call sin and abuse what it is until it becomes a PR move to do so.

They are right to do what they finally did. But they are also not the heroes; they are the incompetent "shepherds".

Trapped · 01-21-2021, 02:53 PM

To be clear, Colley has behaved that way in regards to a family abuse case. In other words, he was just "covering the brother".......like the leadership has been trained to do for decades. He viewed a legitimate problem as an "attack".....like the leadership has been trained to do for decades.

His son also committed suicide sometime in the past ~6 months. I'm sure there were numerous factors behind his action, but his father's behavior and the latitude he was given to continue his behavior to the destruction of so many saints contributed to be sure.

The co-workers have a lot of blood and tears on their head.

Cal · 01-21-2021, 05:03 PM

Thanks Trapped. Can you give more details? How does his father figure in? Let's not succumb to LR "covering." When it comes to this group we have to get things into the light.

Anybody else? I want to be fair about this

01-21-2021, 05:45 PM

Not knowing any thing about the issue in this thread.
But I've followed Trapped since his first post in this forum. So glad Trapped has improved from his trapped and sleepless agonies. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No ones comes to God the Father except by him.
And thank you Cal for "I want to be fair about this". Praying for your videos to be in Jesus's way and truth and life.

Trapped · 01-21-2021, 08:00 PM

Cal, I think the most I can say is that there was a family, the husband/father of which was accused of some abuses that are punishable by law. These kind of abuses would not be things there are typically witnesses to.

Colley took the accusation against the husband/father as an attack, and rather than allow the case to go through court with testimonies and witnesses and expert opinion to determine guilt, he went on a total warpath well before verdict, sending out mass communications almost day and night and using church gatherings to repeat the same, in an out of his mind attempt to defend the accused brother and absolutely trash and drag the victim(s) through the mud. Lies, misinformation, sordid details, salacious tidbits, using scripture to determine guilt or innocence in ways that made no logical sense whatsoever. Rather than the accused brother stepping back, he was promoted and lauded, making it uncomfortable for the saints to say the least. Saints desperately turned to the co-workers (after all they are the "apostles" today, right?) and the co-workers did what we all know they do - dragged their feet, shuffled around, delayed, made unsuccessful attempts to curtail Colley, and left the saints gasping for oxygen....because they aren't used to calling abusive behavior "abusive" and taking an actual and timely stand against sin and wrongdoing (because they "don't care about right and wrong" remember?).

This letter from the co-workers is years too late.

I can't add anything to my comment about Colley's behavior affecting his son without getting into the realm of conjecture, so I'll have to leave my comments at that.

Unregistered, thanks for your expression of care. Hopefully it has been an encouragement over the few years I've been on the forum to see that God is faithful to wipe the dirt off confused and wounded members' glasses so they can see the truth more clearly.

HERn · 01-22-2021, 02:02 PM

I’ve met Colley a couple of times and heard him preach because I have an OKC connection. He’s a short guy who in college was a BMOC and praised as good building material. Like most of the being blinded coworkers he exudes stellar self confidence. His failure to yield to fellow blindeds early on suggests he had a high opinion of his status among them. In my opinion not someone I would want shepherding my family. Oh, how the mighty have fallen!

HERn · 01-23-2021, 09:17 AM

Looks like the 1/14/21 letter from the blindeds has been removed from the so-called shepherding website. Does anyone have a link to another location for the letter?

I think there was a sentence in the letter where the blindeds stated that Colley was to move to a location where he would not be well known or "prominent"! Wow! I guess we'll find out if he can receive the discipline and function like a regular brother rather than a BROTHER.

The quote was in a different letter that I have recently posted.

HERn · 01-23-2021, 09:23 AM

I received a copy of a letter supposedly written by the blindeds to the saints in the OKC area.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 14, 2021

To the leading brothers serving in the United States:

We hope that this letter finds you and the saints you are with empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength to render Him your full cooperation (Eph. 6:10). In this crucial time we must be diligent to keep the oneness and the one accord among all the local churches in His Body, which is the master key to all the New Testament blessings. At the same time we must also be cognizant that whenever God is moving, His enemy, Satan, is active to stir up problems. As Brother Lee taught us, we should expect turmoil as we journey together with the Lord (CWWL, 1989, vol. 4, 338-341). Such turmoils cause suffering and grief and, on occasion, demand a response from the Lord’s servants. Today we are faced with such a situation. Since 2018 co-workers have sought on numerous occasions to address two specific problems in the Oklahoma City-area (OKC-area) churches; however our counsel was rejected.

It is because of the extensive damage to the saints and the churches that we must now clearly state our standing regarding the serious problems resulting primarily from the actions of Brother Colley Joseph, a co-worker and elder in OKC. These actions have affected saints and churches not only in the OKC area but in many other places due to the widespread propagation of his improper, biased, and reviling emails. In broad terms, this situation involves principles related to two matters—the handling of family conflicts and the proper use of the Word and of the ministry of our brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. In this letter we initially would like to put forth a set of governing principles regarding these two matters.

First, in our dealing with family matters as leading ones in the churches, we should follow some basic principles. Although we are charged to care for the saints, there are boundaries we must observe, including in our touching of the saints’ marriages (The Collected Works of Witness Lee [CWWL], 1960, vol. 2, 245). Although we need to shepherd couples in troubled marriages, we should not intrude or attempt to adjudicate between right and wrong in family issues, lest we entangle the church in the dispute and factions ensue (CWWL, 1950-1951, vol. 1, 156-157). Moreover, the saints’ private affairs should remain private as much as possible. Publicly exposing failures can damage families and affect a person’s reputation and standing in society, invite litigation, and terminate the elders’ function. Brother Lee told us, “Whoever uncovers the defects, shortcomings, and sins of the members of the church is disqualified from the eldership. Our uncovering of the members under our eldership, our shepherding, annuls our qualification” (CWWL, 1994-1997, vol. 5, 124). Today there are also legal protections against character defamation that we all must respect (CWWL, 1984, vol. 2, 433; 1985, vol. 1, 494-495; vol. 2, 426).

Also, if a brother bearing responsibility is accused of serious wrongdoing, he should cease his serving unless and until his name is cleared and the saints are confident and peaceful that he resume his service. This withdrawing from serving by an accused brother is not to admit fault but to spare the church from much disquiet and to allow the brother to focus his attention on responding appropriately to the accusations against him. For example, to spare the churches, Brother Nee stopped his work and public ministry among the churches for six years due to false accusations that stirred up turmoil in the church in Shanghai.

Furthermore, we unequivocally condemn any form of abusive activity, including toward spouses or children in the context of a family or toward the saints in the context of the church, and do not agree with covering up any form of abuse, whether physical, sexual, or psychological (1 Tim. 3:2-5; see “A Letter from the Co-workers in North America” dated July 5, 2019; “Handing Allegations of Abuse”; and “Covering, Not Covering Up” on shepherdingwords.com). Moreover, although church governance and administration are not the state’s responsibility, we also affirm that the churches, and the saints within them, are bound to respect the laws, the courts, and other secular authorities as representatives of God’s authority in this age (Rom. 13:1-5; Titus 3:1-2).

Second, in handling both the Word and the ministry, we must exercise to be pure, putting aside any self-interest, including self-vindication. In our handling of the Word, we must be diligent to present ourselves “approved to God, an unashamed workman, cutting straight the word of the truth” (2 Tim. 2:15). In our dealing with the ministry, we must learn to apply it in an accurate, fair, and balanced manner, lest we misrepresent its teaching. For example, the Word of God shows us that the apostles, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, appoint elders to oversee and administrate the churches (Acts 14:23; 20:28; Titus 1:5). This has been the ministry’s teaching and our practice for decades. However, a local church is not an autonomy, and its elders should not carry out their service as if it is. Brother Nee taught that when faced with making a decision, a local church “will not act presumptuously, using the excuse that the administration of churches is local; instead, it will consult the other assemblies” (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee [CWWN], vol. 22, 58). Brother Lee taught that the administration of a local church must be carried out under the vision of the Body of Christ and that we must see, know, care for, and honor the Body (CWWL, 1993, vol. 2, 106-107, 535-536, 538, 543-546, 548-549, 551-552). Also, the Bible shows us that the apostles have an ongoing relationship with established churches, including the responsibility to intervene if a church is in serious disorder or if an elder is improper (1 Cor. 1:11; 4:21; 11:34; 1 Tim. 5:19-21). Both Brother Nee and Brother Lee faithfully taught this (see “The Ongoing Relationship Between the Apostles and the Local Churches” on shepherdingwords.com and the attached “Ministry Excerpts Pertinent to Problems Arising in the OKC-Area”).

It grieves us to say that all of these principles have been trampled and, in some cases, attacked in the OKC area, causing much suffering to the saints, damage to churches, and confusion both in the OKC area and in other places. We wish to make it clear that we are not taking sides or passing judgment on any of the family issues. Rather, we are plainly stating our position regarding the unjustifiable and abusive mishandling of these matters and the misrepresentation of Watchman Nee’s and Witness Lee’s ministry.

We denounce and disassociate ourselves from how the marriage issues have been mishandled and the controversy that mishandling engendered. To be clear, we are not denouncing or disassociating ourselves from the churches, the saints, or the elders in the OKC area. Neither are we saying that only the OKC-area elders made errors, nor are we passing any kind of judgment on who is right and who is wrong in the conflicts within the marriages. Our concern is with the OKC-area leading ones’ inappropriate responses. When the conflict between a leading brother and his wife first emerged, the OKC-area leading ones erred by taking sides with their fellow leading brother against his wife. They abandoned the proper function of elders, which is to shepherd and feed all the saints (John 21:15-17; 1 Peter 5:2-3; Matt. 24:45), and became partisans. This destroyed any possibility that the elders could be a factor of reconciliation and inevitably led to the formation of parties within the church and the churches and the loss of many saints from the church life (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet. 5:2).

The OKC-area elders assumed an authority that they did not have to deal with a fellow leading one; if they felt that the matter needed adjudication, they should have referred it to leading co-workers who are qualified to exercise apostolic authority (1 Tim. 5:19; CWWL, 1965, vol. 4, 189-190). Instead, despite co-workers’ repeated requests, Colley refused to allow the leading brother to withdraw, even though the brother himself offered to do so. That refusal continued even after third-party professionals initiated an inquiry by the Oklahoma Department of Human Services. Whether the accusations made are true or not, the prudent action would have been for the brother to step aside from responsibility and from playing any public role in the church. Indeed, by not allowing him to do this, the elders caused some saints great concern, threw the church into turmoil, opened the door to potential civil litigation, and put the Lord’s recovery in danger of suffering irreparable public disgrace.

Colley took the lead to send out copious emails full of intemperate and vile accusations against the wives in the two marriage disputes. His sarcastic and reviling emails were blind-copied to many people and forwarded to many more. These unseemly emails exhibited extreme partiality and were a major factor in spreading contagion. They show that he constructed a biased and speculative narrative fairly early on, largely based on talks with one of the husbands, whom he said he believed from the day he returned from Belize on January 6, 2018, even before he spoke to the wife the following day. Subsequently, he incorporated additional “facts” that he felt supported that narrative and rejected anything that did not, including the findings of several professionals regarding allegations of child abuse. Throughout he exhibited a single-minded determination to convince others of the rightness of his opinions irrespective of the cost to the involved individuals and their families, to the saints, and to the churches.

We would remind you of the sober word concerning reviling that was given during message 4 of the October 2020 ITERO under section I.E. of the outline, concerning the mistreating of fellow believers. In that section a definition of reviling is given: “reviling is when we cause the saints to inwardly suffer pain or to be inwardly wounded by assailing and criticizing them harshly with abusive language.” Colley strongly and repeatedly made accusations and insinuations against saints of vile conduct and motives that we would not repeat here to spare you from defilement. Both the things he asserted and the language he used to do so were cruel, reprehensible, and misrepresent both the Lord and His recovery. In addition, he has continued to claim that one wife coached her children to accuse her husband of abuse, even though the accusations at issue were brought forth by third parties. Furthermore, a licensed professional who was counseling the children testified in court of seeing no indication of such coaching with one child and the impossibility of coaching with the other. That testimony stood as given and was not refuted; it became a factor in the judge’s decision to suspend the father’s visitation rights.

These scathing attacks extended beyond the sisters directly involved. He accused one sister’s extended family of being a “Klan,” engaging in Nazi-style propaganda, and seeking a “public execution” of her husband, saying that they wished him to be “skinned and then hung and then burned alive.” He said those who disagreed with him were the family’s “minions” whipped into a “hysteria” akin to the Salem witch trials. Faithful brothers in the Lord who urged restraint were dismissed as “mentally or intellectually challenged,” “morally dishonest,” and psychologically unfit. These were not isolated incidents but a pattern of behavior over more than two years manifested in literally hundreds of emails, some of which were addressed directly to the OKC leading ones. Even if his emails had been grounded with provable facts (and they were not), it is a grievous abuse to expose the saints’ private matters, to rail on their perceived failures and weaknesses, and to tarnish their reputations with such inflammatory language. It grieves us even to mention these words, but we are compelled to do so in an effort to recover, preserve, and establish saints who have been affected by them, as well as to set the record straight for others and for posterity that these aberrant actions do not represent the Lord or the ministry and the churches in His recovery.

Moreover, instead of counseling and modeling restraint as some of the co-workers advised him to do, more emails were sent out, deriding the co-workers who tendered that advice, saying that they were “overstepping,” “undermining,” “supporting division” and acting as “bishops” in a “hierarchy.” He characterized them as “‘shooting from the hip’ without a ‘full deck.’” He said that they drank the family’s “cool-aid” [sic] and that the saints who listened to them did the same because those co-workers “have more stars on their chest.” He misrepresented their counsel of restraint as advocating that the accused brother “be thrown under the bus, essentially be excommunicated.” When some co-workers visited the OKC area and spoke with some of the parties involved, he said that the sister in one of the disputes “played the brothers like a fiddle.” Brothers, such talk is unquestionably divisive.

After multiple occasions in which we had serious fellowship with him, he eventually agreed to stop his emails in which he attacked either the saints or the co-workers, but each time he continued his biased running commentary. Only after being told emphatically by one of the co-workers to “cease and desist” did he, at least initially, curtail his practice. There is no evidence, however, that he in any way has sought to undo the damage done by any of his emails.

Furthermore, we must denounce the misuse of the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee in an attempt to justify the errors made by the OKC-area leading ones in refusing the counsel of a number of co-workers. Again, this is not a denunciation of the brothers but of what they have done. Excerpts have been widely disseminated that misrepresent and intentionally distort the full ministry of our brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to support the notion that elders have autonomous authority without accountability over matters involving the churches and the saints in their localities. During the turmoil in the late 1980s Brother Lee strongly condemned the teaching of autonomy as a different teaching contrary to God’s economy (CWWL, 1988, vol. 3, 283-285, 386; 1988, vol. 4, 25, 95-96, 310; 1989, vol. 1, 377-379; 1989, vol. 4, 207; 1990, vol. 2, 196; 1993, vol. 2, 98, 270; see also Life-study of Genesis, 456). In the last stage of his ministry Brother Lee strongly charged us, “We need to be governed and controlled by this vision and see clearly that what we are doing is not the work of one local church but the work of one Body” (CWWL, 1994-1997, vol. 2, 333). Under the heading “The Erroneous Teaching of Autonomy” Brother Lee wrote, “Autonomous means ‘self-governed, independent’” (CWWL, 1989, vol.1, 277). The thrust of many emails that Colley has sent out is clearly designed to insulate the churches in the heartland area from any direct involvement of the leading co-workers in addressing the problems in the OKC area. This is a different teaching, a wind of teaching, that is contrary to God’s Word (1 Tim. 1:3; Eph. 4:14; CWWL, 1988, vol. 3, 386; 1989, vol. 1, 377-378; 1989, vol. 3, 406-407; 1993, vol. 2, 544-545). We must be faithful to warn you, as Brother Lee warned us all in 1989, that even spirituality or scriptural teachings, if overstressed, can become factors of division. Among the teachings he mentioned that could be used in this way were “the teaching concerning the headship of Christ, the teaching concerning all the churches being responsible directly to Christ alone, and the teaching concerning not exalting man” (CWWL, 1989, vol. 4, 383). The misuse of some of these teachings is exactly what the emails have been promoting. In addition, emails have been sent out to sow suspicion against any co-workers who might seek to render help in addressing the problems the churches in the OKC area have been facing. That is reprehensible and divisive. We have attached a set of excerpts that show that an insistence on the absolute authority of local elders is not according to the biblical principles presented through the ministry of Brother Nee and Brother Lee.

It is a matter of great sorrow to us that we must tell you that our brother Colley has, by such actions, disqualified himself from any further role as a worker or an elder among us. He has made serious errors in his handling of both the marriage conflicts and the truth. To revile saints disqualifies a brother from being either a co-worker or an elder. To ignore the possible committing of criminal abuse is likewise a serious lapse in judgment that we cannot disregard. The potential ramifications for the dear saints, their children, the churches in the OKC area, and the recovery as a whole are far too great. To misrepresent the truth likewise disqualifies a brother from participating in the work or the eldership (Titus 1:9). We have, therefore, instructed him to withdraw from his participation in both the work extra-locally and the eldership in Oklahoma City.

Please be assured that in spite of recent problems, we regard all the churches and saints in Oklahoma to be part of the Lord’s recovery. We have no intent to disassociate ourselves from or condemn the churches and the saints in Oklahoma but are instead clarifying that the aberrant actions and teachings of the leadership in the OKC area do not represent the ministry and the churches in the Lord’s recovery. Our strong desire is to shepherd, restore, and preserve all the saints and the churches that have been affected. We are compelled to be faithful to the responsibility that the Lord has given us for the churches and the entire Body to contact, to fellowship with, and to care for the saints and the churches (Acts 20:27, 31; 1 Thes. 2:7-8, 11). Because we consider the United States, the heartland, and the churches in Oklahoma to be a key part of the Lord’s move, our deep realization is that the churches and saints in Oklahoma must be healthy and strong for the Lord’s testimony.

It is our sincere hope and yearning that the leading ones in the OKC area would continue to join us in seeking the Lord to afford Him an opportunity to recover lost ground and take the churches there on in a healthy way. We are encouraging the brothers there to desperately seek the Lord and be humbled under His mighty hand, admit their errors, and repent, confess, and seek to reconcile with and restore others, thus inviting God’s mercy, lovingkindness, compassion, and grace (1 Pet. 5:5-6). We are very much before the Lord concerning how to co-labor with Him to set matters in order based on and governed by New Testament principles and our practice in the Lord’s recovery (1 Cor. 11:34b and footnote; 4:17). We ask you to encourage all the saints and churches to be vigilant to resist Satan, God’s enemy, who would seek to dishearten the saints and ultimately sow division among the churches—“For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies” (Eph. 6:12). To thwart his attack, it is vital that you join us in exhorting all the saints not to gossip, conjecture, or spread rumors or opinions among the saints by word of mouth or by any electronic means but to follow the leading of the co-workers and to pray for the Lord to manifest His victory and His glory.

We ask you to share this letter with those saints in the church who might benefit from it. Our sincere desire is that the Lord would use these words to preserve the uninformed, recover the wounded and deceived, and establish those who are troubled and wavering. We know that some saints may be troubled by this fellowship due to rumors they have heard. Please know that all of you are in our hearts (2 Cor. 3:2; 7:3). We also ask you, as leading ones in His recovery, to read together A Word of Love to the Co-workers, Elders, Lovers, and Seekers of the Lord, paying special attention to the last three chapters.

Before the Lord and for the sake of His testimony among us, we are compelled to take a public stance that is consistent with both our collective practice over many decades and the ministry we all esteem so highly. The actions taken by the leading ones in the OKC area have put all the churches in the entire recovery at substantial risk of being associated with extreme partiality and even with the appearance of a cover up. We are very grieved over this situation and the damage it has brought to the churches and the saints.

May the Lord pour out His abundant and unceasing mercy upon all the saints, including you brothers, that He may preserve us all faithful to the end (2 Tim. 4:7-8) and bountifully supply us to be those who co-labor with Him to tenderly shepherd and heal any wounded saints, to restore the sweet one accord in and among the churches, and to cause His testimony to shine brightly. May the Lord strengthen and bless His recovery.

Your brothers,

Albert Lim
Benson Phillips
Bob Danker
Chris Wilde
Dan Sady
David Koo
Dennis Higashi
Ed Marks
Jerry McGill
Jim Miller
Joe Davis
Ken Walker
Mark Raabe
Minoru Chen
James Lee
Marty Robert
Phil Delp
Ray Graver
Ricky Acosta
Rick Scatterday
Steve Watts
Ron Kangas
Ted Williamson
Tom Goetz
Tym Seay

Enclosed: Ministry Excerpts Pertinent to Problems Arising in the OKC Area

-
-

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trapped · 01-23-2021, 10:41 AM

Meehhh........they always say "this decision was not made lightly" and think that the phrase somehow covers their actions or lack thereof.

Interesting that the link is still on the sw.com site, but the letters have been removed. Why not remove the links too? Maybe they are editing them in order to re-upload?

I honestly will be surprised if Colley simply ups and moves to a new house/city "in fellowship" with the co-workers. I think he will consider that to be a gross overreach of the co-workers authority, delving into his literal home. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

SerenityLives · 01-23-2021, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Looks like the 1/14/21 letter from the blindeds has been removed from the so-called shepherding website. Does anyone have a link to another location for the letter?

I think there was a sentence in the letter where the blindeds stated that Colley was to move to a location where he would not be well known or "prominent"! Wow! I guess we'll find out if he can receive the discipline and function like a regular brother rather than a BROTHER.

The quote was in a different letter that I have recently posted.

I’m wondering how he’ll be able to move to a location where he won’t be “well known” if the letters about him were already distributed to every locality in the states.

Nell · 01-23-2021, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Meehhh........they always say "this decision was not made lightly" and think that the phrase somehow covers their actions or lack thereof.

Interesting that the link is still on the sw.com site, but the letters have been removed. Why not remove the links too? Maybe they are editing them in order to re-upload?

I honestly will be surprised if Colley simply ups and moves to a new house/city "in fellowship" with the co-workers. I think he will consider that to be a gross overreach of the co-workers authority, delving into his literal home. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/Fol...01-14-2021.pdf

Another, much shorter letter.

Trapped · 01-23-2021, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

https://shepherdingwords.com/pdf/Fol...01-14-2021.pdf

Another, much shorter letter.

"Maybe if we remove the letter, we'll remove the way for Cal to make another video!!"

LOL.......

More image control. Keep information tightly controlled, only internal to the organization.

Nell · 01-23-2021, 03:53 PM

So has that question been answered?

Albert Lim
Dan Sady
Jerry McGill
Mark Raabe
Phil Delp
Steve Watts
Tym Seay
Benson Phillips
David Koo
Jim Miller
Minoru Chen
Ray Graver
Ron Kangas
Bob Danker
Dennis Higashi
Joe Davis
James Lee
Ricky Acosta
Ted Williamson
Chris Wilde
Ed Marks
Ken Walker
Marty Robert
Rick Scatterday
Tom Goetz

HERn · 01-23-2021, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I’m wondering how he’ll be able to move to a location where he won’t be “well known” if the letters about him were already distributed to every locality in the states.

Wherever he goes he’ll be “that brother”. His scarlet letter will be “D” for disciplined. I wonder if the hymns he calls will be superseded by a lowly elder at the new place? After being an alpha male for so long it’s got to be hard to be just a little “b” brother. I’m not sure the blindeds can feel remorse, guilt, or shame. He might need the services of a Christian counselor. Hopefully he will take the way of repentance and healing, if not he will become a pistol too hot to handle.

Trapped · 01-23-2021, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

So has that question been answered?

Albert Lim
Dan Sady
Jerry McGill
Mark Raabe
Phil Delp
Steve Watts
Tym Seay
Benson Phillips
David Koo
Jim Miller
Minoru Chen
Ray Graver
Ron Kangas
Bob Danker
Dennis Higashi
Joe Davis
James Lee
Ricky Acosta
Ted Williamson
Chris Wilde
Ed Marks
Ken Walker
Marty Robert
Rick Scatterday
Tom Goetz

It answers the question of who they are in North America at least.

What a loony organization that will post an article that says it's "absurd" and "unbiblical" to ask for a list of names of what they self-appoint as "apostles", who then turn around and list those very names in another part of the same site when they want to throw their weight around.

01-23-2021, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

So has that question been answered?....

And
Andrew Yu?

-

UntoHim · 01-23-2021, 09:56 PM

Brother Andrew past away last month.
-

Nell · 01-24-2021, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenityLives

I’m wondering how he’ll be able to move to a location where he won’t be “well known” if the letters about him were already distributed to every locality in the states.

Good point. After reading the letter before it was disappeared, I can't see Colley going quietly.

01-25-2021, 08:18 AM

It seems that the coworkers are actually helping victims of abuse now and transitioning from the overuse of "covering".

Also trapped you seem to have info on this colley and his spreading of his own particular views of the Bible. Did Anaheim see him as a thread to the ministry and used the abuse case as a cover up to "dethrone" him from his coworker position or was the abuse case causing too much tension and it was last straw that was piling up on a ton of other issue he has had?

Who is this Colley person and what are the factors that led to his falling from his administrative position?

Nell · 01-25-2021, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z9

It seems that the coworkers are actually helping victims of abuse now and transitioning from the overuse of "covering".

It's only temporary. They're keeping up appearances...grandstanding.

Why did it take 3 years? Why didn't they help these "victims" when first reported...3 years ago? Did they just now read the Bible and Witness Lee's ministry and discover...wait... hold on...uh...this might be a problem.

What was true today was true then. Like Trapped said, this is CYA.

There has been sexual misconduct in the Local Churches for years. Such behavior is common, not just OKC. Read the Whistleblower thread. There are many testimonies on this forum of sexual misconduct in the "Church" by leadership. They may be "helping" now, but "transitioning"? No way.

Nell

01-25-2021, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z9

It seems that the coworkers are actually helping victims of abuse now and transitioning from the overuse of "covering".

Respectfully, Z9, you seem to be one who jumps to broad conclusions and generalizations pretty quickly. OK, so this one thing happened recently = they are now making some kind of transition and actually helping victims of abuse? Please, I appreciate your optimism, but you're gonna need more evidence to draw these inferences of yours!!

Trapped · 01-25-2021, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z9

It seems that the coworkers are actually helping victims of abuse now and transitioning from the overuse of "covering".

Also trapped you seem to have info on this colley and his spreading of his own particular views of the Bible. Did Anaheim see him as a thread to the ministry and used the abuse case as a cover up to "dethrone" him from his coworker position or was the abuse case causing too much tension and it was last straw that was piling up on a ton of other issue he has had?

Who is this Colley person and what are the factors that led to his falling from his administrative position?

Z9, to my understanding I don't believe the issue was that Colley was a threat to the ministry. He was not trying to "start his own thing" or "teach different things". He was just doing what he was trained to do - view everything as an attack, view the brother perpetrator as innocent and the sister victim as guilty, and twist the Bible to give his views credence. That is how the co-workers are trained. But he did it in a way that can only be described as "off his rocker". The issue was his reactions and actions taken related to the abuse case.

I have heard plenty of other people say they had bad experiences with him, but I don't know any more details on that side of things.

Nell · 01-28-2021, 09:55 PM

Message by Colley Joseph on The Church in Oklahoma City website titled High Road to Marriage.

https://www.churchinokc.org/specialfellowship

This may not be posted for long.

Nell

Nell · 01-29-2021, 09:00 AM

"Co-workers in the Lord’s recovery in North America" were signatories on the January 14, 2021 letter posted on shepherdingwords.com which named Colley Joseph and announced his removal from functioning as an Elder and as a "Co-worker".

What about the Elder he was defending for three years? There were no denials that this Elder had mistreated (to put it lightly) his family for three years. In fact, just the opposite. Is this Elder being sent away to another locality? Would it be safe to say that without the bad behavior of this Elder, none of this would have happened? Would it be safe to say that the failure of the leadership in Oklahoma City to "handle" the abuse by one of their own, lead to untold suffering of the wife and family of the offending Elder?

Regardless of the massive, tedious quotations from the "ministry" of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee, how is that working out for them?

A similar, widely publicized, situation occurred years ago when Ben McPherson was caught in sexual sin by Ray Graver. Ray reported to Benson Phillips, Joe Davis, Don Looper (deceased) and Don Rutledge. All were sickened by what McPherson had done and were ready to expose him publicly to the church, that all would be warned. Benson called Witness Lee with their intention. Benson allowed Lee to talk him/them out of it. Instead McPherson was banished to another locality in East Texas where he could "get some help". They were understandably sickened by his behavior and had no heart to "help" him. Witness Lee was nowhere to be found helping McPherson, and these men basically abandoned him. Years later, McPherson became a predator and seduced the wife of another Elder, divorced his own wife, she divorced her husband and they were married.

So the massive volume of quotations from Witness Lee's "ministry" about caring for the flock have a deafeningly hollow ring. So which is worse, the "the ministry" of Witness Lee, or the practices of the "Co-Workers" and "Elders". No one violates the "ministry" of Witness Lee more than the very men who preach it. No one violated "the ministry" of Witness Lee more than Witness Lee himself.

The hypocrisy began with Watchman Nee. See My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church by Dr. Lily Hsu.

The hypocrisy continued with Witness Lee when his son, Phillip was caught seducing a sister in the Living Stream Ministry "office". When John Ingalls documented the fallout from this heinous behavior of Phillip AND Witness Lee, he ultimately resigned and went his own way.

As Trapped said "I don't believe the issue was that Colley was a threat to the ministry. ... He was just doing what he was trained to do - view everything as an attack, view the brother perpetrator as innocent and the sister victim as guilty, and twist the Bible to give his views credence. That is how the co-workers are trained." Really? How so?

If you want to remain in the Local Church of Witness Lee, in good standing, you are required to be “trained” by the following slogans which became “teachings”. As in any closed society, such as the so called "Lord's Recovery". the unwritten rules dominate the culture. This is only a few of the teachings of Witness Lee which have been interpreted into practice:

Attack: Anyone who tells the truth about Lee, LSM, is attacking.
Authority: Cover the brothers: WLee's sons got caught molesting the church secretaries and Lee covered it up.
Classification: Negative "Don't say anything negative."
Family: If you take care of the Church, God will take care of your family.
Fellowship: means "permission. "Don't do anything without permission." ... without “fellowship From “the brothers”.
Ministry: Life: We only care for life. (Truth is secondary to "life".)
Ministry: Oneness: means "Do what you are told."
Name calling: Little grinders: Witness Lee term for children.
Rebellion: Anyone who mentions Witness Lee's sons.
Rebellion: Disagree with Lee's ministry,
Slogan: Get out of your mind. Stop talking. Stop telling the truth.
Slogan: I don't have the peace. Means: I don't want to.
Slogan: Turn to your spirit. (Cover your ears, shake your head, la la la la la la la la.)
Slogan: You're in your mind. Diminish another’s own ability to think/choose
Mind: Talk over members as if they "know" what is best.
Storms, Turmoil: The consequences of telling the truth of Lee's ministry, LSM, Blendeds, "Co-Workers", and Elders is told.

Perhaps the worst, most insidious teaching of all is this one:
Benson Phillips: "All Non-Local Churchers are Unsanctified and Bankrupt"
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis added

This is heretical. This teaching flies in the face of the redemptive work of Christ. This teaching is the most common stumbling of those who post on the forum about the suffering they are experiencing in the Local Church of Witness Lee. They stay in the Local Church of Witness Lee because they are threatened. They are afraid to leave.

Despite the "assurance" of Benson, this speaking is a lie of the devil. It teaches fear. The most common commandment by Jesus in the New Testament: fear not.

Nell

aron · 01-29-2021, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Despite the "assurance" of Benson, this speaking is a lie of the devil. It teaches fear. The most common commandment by Jesus in the New Testament: fear not.

Nell

I agree. They teach the fear of men. James said, "Do not be respecters of persons", but all they do is respect certain persons, and certain persons who know certain persons, ad nauseum. It's the very human system "of the gentiles" that Jesus repeatedly warned his disciples about. As did James, Peter, John, Paul... you have to get "trained" to ignore that consistent and clear direction.

Sons to Glory! · 01-29-2021, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Perhaps the worst, most insidious teaching of all is this one:
Benson Phillips: "All Non-Local Churchers are Unsanctified and Bankrupt"
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis added

This is heretical. This teaching flies in the face of the redemptive work of Christ. This teaching is the most common stumbling of those who post on the forum about the suffering they are experiencing in the Local Church of Witness Lee. They stay in the Local Church of Witness Lee because they are threatened. They are afraid to leave.

Despite the "assurance" of Benson, this speaking is a lie of the devil. It teaches fear. The most common commandment by Jesus in the New Testament: fear not.

Nell

Benson's quoted comments here are arrogant, elitist, divisive and fleshly, and emanates from blindness of their own gross, Laodicean situation. How did I ever swallow such utter nonsense (of course, all of us who came out ask this question)!?!? For the record, I know many who left the LC who have had a great deal of the Lord's sanctifying work operating in them since (and actually much more sanctification since they left the LC).

Swallowing this nonsense makes ones mind pickled with an element which poisons someone from having true fellowship in oneness with other believers. When in the LC, we all carried this with us . . . "We believe we have seen something so much higher than you!" still rings in my head, which is what a LC brother told some other Christians who were just enjoying quietly singing Jesus songs in a restaurant. Me and the brother that said that had been completely duped by LC nonsense to think we were the more/better spiritual ones . . . (but in my spirit, I surely knew something was wrong)

01-30-2021, 09:08 PM

Nell, has colley been dismissed from his position as coworker and elder yet cause from those recent messages you have linked- he still seems like the top dog at the church in OKC....

Do you think Colley will just give in like that and bow down like some sick dog about to be put to sleep? Or will he put some spunk and spice in his resistance? How is the reaction of Colley and the locality as a whole from the letter? I assume the word has gone around all over the USA of the letter of dismissal. So gossip must be consuming a multitude of localities. Well, I wonder how the dethronement of a coworker is going to pan out.

I doubt it will be anything remotely close to a civil war of division like excommunication of Titus Chu but this does make an award and tense situation as he is a well known CoWorker and not some random brother being banished.

Nell · 01-31-2021, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z9

Nell, has colley been dismissed from his position as coworker and elder yet cause from those recent messages you have linked- he still seems like the top dog at the church in OKC....

The original 1/14/21 letter states on the top of page 5: "We have, therefore, instructed him (Colley Joseph) to withdraw from his participation in both the work extra-locally and the eldership in Oklahoma City."

Is he "gone"? I don't know.

Quote:

Do you think Colley will just give in like that and bow down like some sick dog about to be put to sleep? Or will he put some spunk and spice in his resistance? How is the reaction of Colley and the locality as a whole from the letter? I assume the word has gone around all over the USA of the letter of dismissal. So gossip must be consuming a multitude of localities. Well, I wonder how the dethronement of a coworker is going to pan out.

I don't know what Colley will do. He has already exhibited spunk and spice and an unwillingness to kowtow to the big dogs.

I have no contacts in OKC so I don't know anything other than the devastation described in the 1/14/21a letter (replaced by 1/14/21b, and again replaced by 1/22/21). I don't even know who the elders are there in OKCity. In fact I don't know who the elders are anywhere. They do not list themselves on any of the "Church" websites that I have found. Huh...I wonder why? It certainly makes the time honored "cover the brothers" practice easier.

Quote:

I doubt it will be anything remotely close to a civil war of division like excommunication of Titus Chu but this does make an award and tense situation as he is a well known CoWorker and not some random brother being banished.

I think the tragedy lies with the family of the elder who allegedly abused them...his wife and possibly his children. The local elders (Colley included) covered it up, as did the "Co-workers". Though I don't know if you can accurately say Colley covered it up.

Nell

01-31-2021, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

I have no contacts in OKC so I don't know anything other than the devastation described in the 1/14/21a letter (replaced by 1/14/21b, and again replaced by 1/22/21). I don't even know who the elders are there in OKCity. In fact I don't know who the elders are anywhere. They do not list themselves on any of the "Church" websites that I have found. Huh...I wonder why? It certainly makes the time honored "cover the brothers" practice easier.

I believe you can find some information from the website www.localchurches.org

OKC link: https://www.localchurches.org/church...a-city-ok-usa/

USA churches directory link: https://www.localchurches.org/church...20of%20America

Trapped · 02-06-2021, 10:59 AM

In the interest of making available the letter the co-workers already made available and then removed because they are an organization that heavily practices information control, here is the original letter:

--------------

January 14, 2021

To the leading brothers serving in the United States:

We hope that this letter finds you and the saints you are with empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength to render Him your full cooperation (Eph. 6:10). In this crucial time we must be diligent to keep the oneness and the one accord among all the local churches in His Body, which is the master key to all the New Testament blessings. At the same time we must also be cognizant that whenever God is moving, His enemy, Satan, is active to stir up problems. As Brother Lee taught us, we should expect turmoil as we journey together with the Lord (CWWL, 1989, vol. 4, 338-341). Such turmoils cause suffering and grief and, on occasion, demand a response from the Lord’s servants. Today we are faced with such a situation. Since 2018 co-workers have sought on numerous occasions to address two specific problems in the Oklahoma City-area (OKC-area) churches; however our counsel was rejected.

It is because of the extensive damage to the saints and the churches that we must now clearly state our standing regarding the serious problems resulting primarily from the actions of Brother Colley Joseph, a co-worker and elder in OKC. These actions have affected saints and churches not only in the OKC area but in many other places due to the widespread propagation of his improper, biased, and reviling emails. In broad terms, this situation involves principles related to two matters—the handling of family conflicts and the proper use of the Word and of the ministry of our brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. In this letter we initially would like to put forth a set of governing principles regarding these two matters.

First, in our dealing with family matters as leading ones in the churches, we should follow some basic principles. Although we are charged to care for the saints, there are boundaries we must observe, including in our touching of the saints’ marriages (The Collected Works of Witness Lee [CWWL], 1960, vol. 2, 245). Although we need to shepherd couples in troubled marriages, we should not intrude or attempt to adjudicate between right and wrong in family issues, lest we entangle the church in the dispute and factions ensue (CWWL, 1950-1951, vol. 1, 156-157). Moreover, the saints’ private affairs should remain private as much as possible. Publicly exposing failures can damage families and affect a person’s reputation and standing in society, invite litigation, and terminate the elders’ function. Brother Lee told us, “Whoever uncovers the defects, shortcomings, and sins of the members of the church is disqualified from the eldership. Our uncovering of the members under our eldership, our shepherding, annuls our qualification” (CWWL, 1994-1997, vol. 5, 124). Today there are also legal protections against character defamation that we all must respect (CWWL, 1984, vol. 2, 433; 1985, vol. 1, 494-495; vol. 2, 426).

Also, if a brother bearing responsibility is accused of serious wrongdoing, he should cease his serving unless and until his name is cleared and the saints are confident and peaceful that he resume his service. This withdrawing from serving by an accused brother is not to admit fault but to spare the church from much disquiet and to allow the brother to focus his attention on responding appropriately to the accusations against him. For example, to spare the churches, Brother Nee stopped his work and public ministry among the churches for six years due to false accusations that stirred up turmoil in the church in Shanghai.

Furthermore, we unequivocally condemn any form of abusive activity, including toward spouses or children in the context of a family or toward the saints in the context of the church, and do not agree with covering up any form of abuse, whether physical, sexual, or psychological (1 Tim. 3:2-5; see “A Letter from the Co-workers in North America” dated July 5, 2019; “Handing Allegations of Abuse”; and “Covering, Not Covering Up” on shepherdingwords.com). Moreover, although church governance and administration are not the state’s responsibility, we also affirm that the churches, and the saints within them, are bound to respect the laws, the courts, and other secular authorities as representatives of God’s authority in this age (Rom. 13:1-5; Titus 3:1-2).

Second, in handling both the Word and the ministry, we must exercise to be pure, putting aside any self-interest, including self-vindication. In our handling of the Word, we must be diligent to present ourselves “approved to God, an unashamed workman, cutting straight the word of the truth” (2 Tim. 2:15). In our dealing with the ministry, we must learn to apply it in an accurate, fair, and balanced manner, lest we misrepresent its teaching. For example, the Word of God shows us that the apostles, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, appoint elders to oversee and administrate the churches (Acts 14:23; 20:28; Titus 1:5). This has been the ministry’s teaching and our practice for decades. However, a local church is not an autonomy, and its elders should not carry out their service as if it is. Brother Nee taught that when faced with making a decision, a local church “will not act presumptuously, using the excuse that the administration of churches is local; instead, it will consult the other assemblies” (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee [CWWN], vol. 22, 58). Brother Lee taught that the administration of a local church must be carried out under the vision of the Body of Christ and that we must see, know, care for, and honor the Body (CWWL, 1993, vol. 2, 106-107, 535-536, 538, 543-546, 548-549, 551-552). Also, the Bible shows us that the apostles have an ongoing relationship with established churches, including the responsibility to intervene if a church is in serious disorder or if an elder is improper (1 Cor. 1:11; 4:21; 11:34; 1 Tim. 5:19-21). Both Brother Nee and Brother Lee faithfully taught this (see “The Ongoing Relationship Between the Apostles and the Local Churches” on shepherdingwords.com and the attached “Ministry Excerpts Pertinent to Problems Arising in the OKC-Area”).

It grieves us to say that all of these principles have been trampled and, in some cases, attacked in the OKC area, causing much suffering to the saints, damage to churches, and confusion both in the OKC area and in other places. We wish to make it clear that we are not taking sides or passing judgment on any of the family issues. Rather, we are plainly stating our position regarding the unjustifiable and abusive mishandling of these matters and the misrepresentation of Watchman Nee’s and Witness Lee’s ministry.

We denounce and disassociate ourselves from how the marriage issues have been mishandled and the controversy that mishandling engendered. To be clear, we are not denouncing or disassociating ourselves from the churches, the saints, or the elders in the OKC area. Neither are we saying that only the OKC-area elders made errors, nor are we passing any kind of judgment on who is right and who is wrong in the conflicts within the marriages. Our concern is with the OKC-area leading ones’ inappropriate responses. When the conflict between a leading brother and his wife first emerged, the OKC-area leading ones erred by taking sides with their fellow leading brother against his wife. They abandoned the proper function of elders, which is to shepherd and feed all the saints (John 21:15-17; 1 Peter 5:2-3; Matt. 24:45), and became partisans. This destroyed any possibility that the elders could be a factor of reconciliation and inevitably led to the formation of parties within the church and the churches and the loss of many saints from the church life (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet. 5:2).

The OKC-area elders assumed an authority that they did not have to deal with a fellow leading one; if they felt that the matter needed adjudication, they should have referred it to leading co-workers who are qualified to exercise apostolic authority (1 Tim. 5:19; CWWL, 1965, vol. 4, 189-190). Instead, despite co-workers’ repeated requests, Colley refused to allow the leading brother to withdraw, even though the brother himself offered to do so. That refusal continued even after third-party professionals initiated an inquiry by the Oklahoma Department of Human Services. Whether the accusations made are true or not, the prudent action would have been for the brother to step aside from responsibility and from playing any public role in the church. Indeed, by not allowing him to do this, the elders caused some saints great concern, threw the church into turmoil, opened the door to potential civil litigation, and put the Lord’s recovery in danger of suffering irreparable public disgrace.

Colley took the lead to send out copious emails full of intemperate and vile accusations against the wives in the two marriage disputes. His sarcastic and reviling emails were blind-copied to many people and forwarded to many more. These unseemly emails exhibited extreme partiality and were a major factor in spreading contagion. They show that he constructed a biased and speculative narrative fairly early on, largely based on talks with one of the husbands, whom he said he believed from the day he returned from Belize on January 6, 2018, even before he spoke to the wife the following day. Subsequently, he incorporated additional “facts” that he felt supported that narrative and rejected anything that did not, including the findings of several professionals regarding allegations of child abuse. Throughout he exhibited a single-minded determination to convince others of the rightness of his opinions irrespective of the cost to the involved individuals and their families, to the saints, and to the churches.

We would remind you of the sober word concerning reviling that was given during message 4 of the October 2020 ITERO under section I.E. of the outline, concerning the mistreating of fellow believers. In that section a definition of reviling is given: “reviling is when we cause the saints to inwardly suffer pain or to be inwardly wounded by assailing and criticizing them harshly with abusive language.” Colley strongly and repeatedly made accusations and insinuations against saints of vile conduct and motives that we would not repeat here to spare you from defilement. Both the things he asserted and the language he used to do so were cruel, reprehensible, and misrepresent both the Lord and His recovery. In addition, he has continued to claim that one wife coached her children to accuse her husband of abuse, even though the accusations at issue were brought forth by third parties. Furthermore, a licensed professional who was counseling the children testified in court of seeing no indication of such coaching with one child and the impossibility of coaching with the other. That testimony stood as given and was not refuted; it became a factor in the judge’s decision to suspend the father’s visitation rights.

These scathing attacks extended beyond the sisters directly involved. He accused one sister’s extended family of being a “Klan,” engaging in Nazi-style propaganda, and seeking a “public execution” of her husband, saying that they wished him to be “skinned and then hung and then burned alive.” He said those who disagreed with him were the family’s “minions” whipped into a “hysteria” akin to the Salem witch trials. Faithful brothers in the Lord who urged restraint were dismissed as “mentally or intellectually challenged,” “morally dishonest,” and psychologically unfit. These were not isolated incidents but a pattern of behavior over more than two years manifested in literally hundreds of emails, some of which were addressed directly to the OKC leading ones. Even if his emails had been grounded with provable facts (and they were not), it is a grievous abuse to expose the saints’ private matters, to rail on their perceived failures and weaknesses, and to tarnish their reputations with such inflammatory language. It grieves us even to mention these words, but we are compelled to do so in an effort to recover, preserve, and establish saints who have been affected by them, as well as to set the record straight for others and for posterity that these aberrant actions do not represent the Lord or the ministry and the churches in His recovery.

Moreover, instead of counseling and modeling restraint as some of the co-workers advised him to do, more emails were sent out, deriding the co-workers who tendered that advice, saying that they were “overstepping,” “undermining,” “supporting division” and acting as “bishops” in a “hierarchy.” He characterized them as “‘shooting from the hip’ without a ‘full deck.’” He said that they drank the family’s “cool-aid” [sic] and that the saints who listened to them did the same because those co-workers “have more stars on their chest.” He misrepresented their counsel of restraint as advocating that the accused brother “be thrown under the bus, essentially be excommunicated.” When some co-workers visited the OKC area and spoke with some of the parties involved, he said that the sister in one of the disputes “played the brothers like a fiddle.” Brothers, such talk is unquestionably divisive.

After multiple occasions in which we had serious fellowship with him, he eventually agreed to stop his emails in which he attacked either the saints or the co-workers, but each time he continued his biased running commentary. Only after being told emphatically by one of the co-workers to “cease and desist” did he, at least initially, curtail his practice. There is no evidence, however, that he in any way has sought to undo the damage done by any of his emails.

Furthermore, we must denounce the misuse of the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee in an attempt to justify the errors made by the OKC-area leading ones in refusing the counsel of a number of co-workers. Again, this is not a denunciation of the brothers but of what they have done. Excerpts have been widely disseminated that misrepresent and intentionally distort the full ministry of our brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to support the notion that elders have autonomous authority without accountability over matters involving the churches and the saints in their localities. During the turmoil in the late 1980s Brother Lee strongly condemned the teaching of autonomy as a different teaching contrary to God’s economy (CWWL, 1988, vol. 3, 283-285, 386; 1988, vol. 4, 25, 95-96, 310; 1989, vol. 1, 377-379; 1989, vol. 4, 207; 1990, vol. 2, 196; 1993, vol. 2, 98, 270; see also Life-study of Genesis, 456). In the last stage of his ministry Brother Lee strongly charged us, “We need to be governed and controlled by this vision and see clearly that what we are doing is not the work of one local church but the work of one Body” (CWWL, 1994-1997, vol. 2, 333). Under the heading “The Erroneous Teaching of Autonomy” Brother Lee wrote, “Autonomous means ‘self-governed, independent’” (CWWL, 1989, vol.1, 277). The thrust of many emails that Colley has sent out is clearly designed to insulate the churches in the heartland area from any direct involvement of the leading co-workers in addressing the problems in the OKC area. This is a different teaching, a wind of teaching, that is contrary to God’s Word (1 Tim. 1:3; Eph. 4:14; CWWL, 1988, vol. 3, 386; 1989, vol. 1, 377-378; 1989, vol. 3, 406-407; 1993, vol. 2, 544-545). We must be faithful to warn you, as Brother Lee warned us all in 1989, that even spirituality or scriptural teachings, if overstressed, can become factors of division. Among the teachings he mentioned that could be used in this way were “the teaching concerning the headship of Christ, the teaching concerning all the churches being responsible directly to Christ alone, and the teaching concerning not exalting man” (CWWL, 1989, vol. 4, 383). The misuse of some of these teachings is exactly what the emails have been promoting. In addition, emails have been sent out to sow suspicion against any co-workers who might seek to render help in addressing the problems the churches in the OKC area have been facing. That is reprehensible and divisive. We have attached a set of excerpts that show that an insistence on the absolute authority of local elders is not according to the biblical principles presented through the ministry of Brother Nee and Brother Lee.

It is a matter of great sorrow to us that we must tell you that our brother Colley has, by such actions, disqualified himself from any further role as a worker or an elder among us. He has made serious errors in his handling of both the marriage conflicts and the truth. To revile saints disqualifies a brother from being either a co-worker or an elder. To ignore the possible committing of criminal abuse is likewise a serious lapse in judgment that we cannot disregard. The potential ramifications for the dear saints, their children, the churches in the OKC area, and the recovery as a whole are far too great. To misrepresent the truth likewise disqualifies a brother from participating in the work or the eldership (Titus 1:9). We have, therefore, instructed him to withdraw from his participation in both the work extra-locally and the eldership in Oklahoma City.

Please be assured that in spite of recent problems, we regard all the churches and saints in Oklahoma to be part of the Lord’s recovery. We have no intent to disassociate ourselves from or condemn the churches and the saints in Oklahoma but are instead clarifying that the aberrant actions and teachings of the leadership in the OKC area do not represent the ministry and the churches in the Lord’s recovery. Our strong desire is to shepherd, restore, and preserve all the saints and the churches that have been affected. We are compelled to be faithful to the responsibility that the Lord has given us for the churches and the entire Body to contact, to fellowship with, and to care for the saints and the churches (Acts 20:27, 31; 1 Thes. 2:7-8, 11). Because we consider the United States, the heartland, and the churches in Oklahoma to be a key part of the Lord’s move, our deep realization is that the churches and saints in Oklahoma must be healthy and strong for the Lord’s testimony.

It is our sincere hope and yearning that the leading ones in the OKC area would continue to join us in seeking the Lord to afford Him an opportunity to recover lost ground and take the churches there on in a healthy way. We are encouraging the brothers there to desperately seek the Lord and be humbled under His mighty hand, admit their errors, and repent, confess, and seek to reconcile with and restore others, thus inviting God’s mercy, lovingkindness, compassion, and grace (1 Pet. 5:5-6). We are very much before the Lord concerning how to co-labor with Him to set matters in order based on and governed by New Testament principles and our practice in the Lord’s recovery (1 Cor. 11:34b and footnote; 4:17). We ask you to encourage all the saints and churches to be vigilant to resist Satan, God’s enemy, who would seek to dishearten the saints and ultimately sow division among the churches—“For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies” (Eph. 6:12). To thwart his attack, it is vital that you join us in exhorting all the saints not to gossip, conjecture, or spread rumors or opinions among the saints by word of mouth or by any electronic means but to follow the leading of the co-workers and to pray for the Lord to manifest His victory and His glory.

We ask you to share this letter with those saints in the church who might benefit from it. Our sincere desire is that the Lord would use these words to preserve the uninformed, recover the wounded and deceived, and establish those who are troubled and wavering. We know that some saints may be troubled by this fellowship due to rumors they have heard. Please know that all of you are in our hearts (2 Cor. 3:2; 7:3). We also ask you, as leading ones in His recovery, to read together A Word of Love to the Co-workers, Elders, Lovers, and Seekers of the Lord, paying special attention to the last three chapters.

Before the Lord and for the sake of His testimony among us, we are compelled to take a public stance that is consistent with both our collective practice over many decades and the ministry we all esteem so highly. The actions taken by the leading ones in the OKC area have put all the churches in the entire recovery at substantial risk of being associated with extreme partiality and even with the appearance of a cover up. We are very grieved over this situation and the damage it has brought to the churches and the saints.

May the Lord pour out His abundant and unceasing mercy upon all the saints, including you brothers, that He may preserve us all faithful to the end (2 Tim. 4:7-8) and bountifully supply us to be those who co-labor with Him to tenderly shepherd and heal any wounded saints, to restore the sweet one accord in and among the churches, and to cause His testimony to shine brightly. May the Lord strengthen and bless His recovery.

Your brothers,

Albert Lim
Benson Phillips
Bob Danker
Chris Wilde
Dan Sady
David Koo
Dennis Higashi
Ed Marks
Jerry McGill
Jim Miller
Joe Davis
Ken Walker
Mark Raabe
Minoru Chen
James Lee
Marty Robert
Phil Delp
Ray Graver
Ricky Acosta
Rick Scatterday
Steve Watts
Ron Kangas
Ted Williamson
Tom Goetz
Tym Seay

Enclosed: Ministry Excerpts Pertinent to Problems Arising in the OKC Area

UntoHim · 02-06-2021, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blended Co-Workers

"..at substantial risk of being associated with extreme partiality and even with the appearance of a cover up"

Right, because you brothers have never had any thing to do with "extreme partiality" or "a cover up".
-

02-06-2021, 05:09 PM

Well it does not look like Colley backing down from his dethronement due this his recent messages and "special fellowships" that are still up on the website. I mean this would be one heck of a feat if Colley is able to ward off the demands of the blended coworkers and at a minimum continue being an elder in OKC. But I doubt he could realistically ever be a functional coworker and travel around the world without a "wanted" bounty on his head.

Final questions

1. Is the state of the church in OKC as bad as Anaheim was during the Philip lee storm (late eighties)? Is the church being ripped apart and is there civil war of sides being taken to an extent that will mark this event as another "storm" in LC history. So far there is about 2 main storms right? The excommunication of elders reproaching Philip lee and the excommunication of Titus Chu that led to the Midwest having 2 churches siding with either the blenders or Titus. Maybe if colley continues being stubborn this will be the third major storm.

2. What is the current situation for Colley as of now? I mean how long can he continue giving "special fellowships" and speaking roles after the demands of the blended has been spoken?

3. Who is this abusive elder that is causing all this chaos in the first place? Announce his name and give detils on his background, and put him on the wall of shame along with Philip Lee and Ben McPherson for his failure as a husband and father. If Philip lee and McPherson are on public forums for their acts then he can certainly to.

Nell · 02-06-2021, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z9

Well it does not look like Colley backing down from his dethronement due this his recent messages and "special fellowships" that are still up on the website. I mean this would be one heck of a feat if Colley is able to ward off the demands of the blended coworkers and at a minimum continue being an elder in OKC. But I doubt he could realistically ever be a functional coworker and travel around the world without a "wanted" bounty on his head.

Final questions

1. Is the state of the church in OKC as bad as Anaheim was during the Philip lee storm (late eighties)? Is the church being ripped apart and is there civil war of sides being taken to an extent that will mark this event as another "storm" in LC history. So far there is about 2 main storms right? The excommunication of elders reproaching Philip lee and the excommunication of Titus Chu that led to the Midwest having 2 churches siding with either the blenders or Titus. Maybe if colley continues being stubborn this will be the third major storm.

2. What is the current situation for Colley as of now? I mean how long can he continue giving "special fellowships" and speaking roles after the demands of the blended has been spoken?

3. Who is this abusive elder that is causing all this chaos in the first place? Announce his name and give detils on his background, and put him on the wall of shame along with Philip Lee and Ben McPherson for his failure as a husband and father. If Philip lee and McPherson are on public forums for their acts then he can certainly to.

There's a link in post 30 below which takes you to a directory of Local Churches and Elders.

Try that.

HERn · 02-06-2021, 08:10 PM

I don't like listening to the messages of the being blinded brothers, but I wanted to listen to something by Colley that was current given the strong hand of Anaheim against him. I skipped through a couple of messages and what caught my attention was that I did not find a single time that Colley quoted the ministry. I did not listen to the entire messages. In every case he reasoned from scripture not the ministry.

So, are the blindeds against Colley because he is using the bible more than the ministry in his preaching? I don't know, but it's interesting that Colley seemed self deprecating when speaking compared to the pontificating of the blindeds with their false gravitas.

https://www.churchinokc.org/specialfellowship

Nell · 02-06-2021, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I don't like listening to the messages of the being blinded brothers, but I wanted to listen to something by Colley that was current given the strong hand of Anaheim against him. I skipped through a couple of messages and what caught my attention was that I did not find a single time that Colley quoted the ministry. I did not listen to the entire messages. In every case he reasoned from scripture not the ministry.

So, are the blindeds against Colley because he is using the bible more than the ministry in his preaching? I don't know, but it's interesting that Colley seemed self deprecating when speaking compared to the pontificating of the blindeds with their false gravitas.

https://www.churchinokc.org/specialfellowship

IMHO They are against Colley because they can no longer control him. This is their greatest fear, losing control.

Nell

Trapped · 02-06-2021, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I don't like listening to the messages of the being blinded brothers, but I wanted to listen to something by Colley that was current given the strong hand of Anaheim against him. I skipped through a couple of messages and what caught my attention was that I did not find a single time that Colley quoted the ministry. I did not listen to the entire messages. In every case he reasoned from scripture not the ministry.

So, are the blindeds against Colley because he is using the bible more than the ministry in his preaching? I don't know, but it's interesting that Colley seemed self deprecating when speaking compared to the pontificating of the blindeds with their false gravitas.

https://www.churchinokc.org/specialfellowship

I'm mostly surprised (although I'm surprised that I'm surprised) that they are still repeating the same ol' same ol'. I listened to just a minute or two of Colley's sharing there and he was telling the audience that the church is actually not a building, a steeple, etc, but an assembly of the called-out ones.

Um, duh. That's church life 101.

Church kids can repeat that in their sleep because they heard it incessantly. Most of you reading probably knew what I was going to say before your eyes even hit the words, because that's a known phrase in the LC. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a group that repeats well-worn information and prevalent teachings to the same attendees over and over again as if it's new information in quite the way the LC does.

I guess I'm also confused when Colley shared this. Did he share this and did the church in OKC post it after the co-workers' letter was written? If so, was it some kind of act of pushback against the co-workers? Or did he share this and was it posted to the OKC site before the letter was written and the church in OKC just hasn't taken it down yet?

HERn, your conjecture is an interesting one. Maybe the reason the co-workers finally did something is just because as the fight intensified between Colley and them, Colley started calling out ministry errors, or speaking from scripture where it contradicted the ministry, or something. That is the only thing that gets the beast to get up from it's slumber and do something - protection of the ministry - so that would make some sense.

02-07-2021, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Message by Colley Joseph on The Church in Oklahoma City website titled High Road to Marriage.

https://www.churchinokc.org/specialfellowship

This may not be posted for long.

Nell

This assumes Colley Joseph has a happy marriage. Hmm.

02-08-2021, 07:53 PM

Well at least we got something out of this

1. We know the North American Coworkers by name

2. There is friction among coworkers in regards to popularity, power, and influence. As seen in the email in regards to colley analogy with the blendeds having more "stars" on their chest.

3. Maybe Colley emails sparked something within some leading elders and Coworkers around the globe in regard to the idea of following the path of Autonomy or Authority. I read the email by Doug Kroger I believe when he was an elder in Berkeley. The convo between him and Lee really displayed Lee early interest for the local church to bow to him. Ever since that convo in Northern California it's been full on dictatorship by a few men in Anaheim following the death of witness Lee. Is the feeling of Colley felt across the minds of elders and 1 star general coworkers (hahaha)? Will Colley be a Martyr for the potential of uprising between localities being free from the Iron Grip of Anaheim? Or will he just be another example of a passing storm? Who will be the person to break the chains of Anaheim?

- As someone said earlier I wonder how Colley will ever have a peaceful transition from Coworker to just a regular ole brother

- Someone who has connections to OKC ( I think HERn), would you mind giving an update on Colley?

4. Someone get the exact name of that scumbag "elder" who caused harm to his family. What an absolute failure of a husband and Father,he had no Christ in him to do such a thing. Glad the courts suspended his visitation to his kids since LC seems to think Elders are beyond reproach and are deputy authority of a locality. Just the idea of deputy authority is so cringe and full of insecurity and fear mongering.

5. The Blended reacted in the side of the abusers and against colley because they were no longer in control of anything. That full email Trapped shown, shows in my opinion that the domestic issues went through the court system and had a public display of the failure of the "covering system". Colley Joseph was not Bowing down to the "General Secretary" of the United Saints of the Lords Recovery "USLR" and fought back with emails emphasizing autonomy and authority. So overall due to their losing battle of control they went against their usual principles. If the domestic issues never went to the courts and succeeded- then I believe that poor woman and her kids would have been subject to that piece of dung and poor excuse of a father and husband. If Colley had not revolted then the potential possibility of a movement throughout the LC following autonomy and not authority can potentially could never happen. Although the chances of that happening are quite slim but hey even a Kool Aid drinking long time member like Colley eventually gets fed up with the iron grip of Anaheim (but for this case it was for the wrong reasons as Colley wanted to suppress the victims). Regardless the victims got justice to an extent due to the "secular courts" and now that bastard is on public record for his ignominy.

02-09-2021, 08:29 PM

- - - - - -
https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCase...8&cmid=3626245
- - - - -

HERn · 02-14-2021, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

- - - - - -
https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCase...8&cmid=3626245
- - - - -

One of Colley’s emails was included in a court filing. Strange fonts, text sizes, colors, punctuation. Grammar and writing look like something a fifth grader would write.

02-14-2021, 09:46 AM

Could you please point us to the actual PDF doc or at least the date of PDF?

HERn · 02-14-2021, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Could you please point us to the actual PDF doc or at least the date of PDF?

Right after you register as a member! 😈

Trapped · 02-14-2021, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Could you please point us to the actual PDF doc or at least the date of PDF?

I don't know which one HERn is referring to specifically, but one of the PDF's that has a fair amount of email correspondence is dated 10-21-2020. There are numerous emails contained there detailing the marriage issues (which normally I would hate to bring up or spread around, but in this case I think it speaks directly to the utterly screwed up relationships that the local church can produce. I'm speaking directly here of the demented views of the husband.) Towards the very end of that particular PDF is at least one email of Colley's where you can see the strange writing. If I run across any others that are good examples I'll make reference to them here.

HERn · 02-14-2021, 01:03 PM

OK, OK!
https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetDocu...18-448&fmt=pdf

Gotta scroll way down to the bottom. Looks to me like an Anaheim strategy to get the trash into the court record so that it would become public.
Can anyone explain the 1/15/2021 handwritten date in the top right hand corner of the document?

Trapped · 02-14-2021, 01:35 PM

Ah! You and I had the same one in mind.

No idea what the 1-15-21 date was.

The trash by Colley looks to be turned in by someone on the wife's side, so the attorney knows what the wife was subjected to at the hands of the "elders" of the church. My understanding is that the email you see there is representative of the torrent of similar ones Colley sent out over a prolonged period of time. No impartiality. No sobermindedness.

HERn · 02-17-2021, 12:20 PM

Does anyone have a link to the court record of the alleged assault by the husband on the wife at Dairy Queen in OKC?

02-21-2021, 10:15 AM

Ghana, Ethiopia, Kenya, Wakanda, and South Africa?

Secondly, how come Dick Taylors name is not on the list?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

So has that question been answered?

Albert Lim
Dan Sady
Jerry McGill
Mark Raabe
Phil Delp
Steve Watts
Tym Seay
Benson Phillips
David Koo
Jim Miller
Minoru Chen
Ray Graver
Ron Kangas
Bob Danker
Dennis Higashi
Joe Davis
James Lee
Ricky Acosta
Ted Williamson
Chris Wilde
Ed Marks
Ken Walker
Marty Robert
Rick Scatterday
Tom Goetz

Is this the same 'Brother Colley' who regularly used to go to Africa to shepherd the saints there during their conferences, particularly in G

HERn · 02-22-2021, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witless Mee

Ghana, Ethiopia, Kenya, Wakanda, and South Africa? Secondly, how come Dick Taylors name is not on the list?
Is this the same 'Brother Colley' who regularly used to go to Africa to shepherd the saints there during their conferences, particularly in G

I don't know about Africa, but I'm sure Colley has ministered in Belize along with some elders from the OKC area. I wondered why Dick Taylor is not on the coworkers list since he speaks sometimes at the trainings. My impression of Dick was that he may be the only senior brother who still has a sensitive conscience and may not be 100% absolute for the blinded's interpretation of the the Nee/Lee ministry as it pertains to destroying and cursing the saints that leave the restricted confines of LSM.

HERn · 02-22-2021, 03:49 PM

Bring the hidden things of darkness into the light. Rebuke the elders among you so that the others may learn.

There is much to be learned about what certain elders in the Recovery believe about marriage and other issues from the court records and included emails in this very sad case. Because fellow OKC-area elders and at least one coworker aligned themselves with the out of line husband/elder in Edmond even to the extent of alleging the wife was an adulterous lesbian with no physical evidence the LSM Anaheim coworkers had to throw the OKC-area elders and their coworker under the bus. This was partly because during the court trial evidence was presented by counselors, social service investigators which was agreed to by the children's Guardian ad litem that the children were subjected to religious abuse in the home and sexual molestation by the elder/father. The court has not ruled on the matter, but has restricted the father's visitation with the children.

Information from the emails included in the court documents alleged that the elder/husband attempted to exercise control over the body, soul, and spirit of his wife. She was restricted to sharing only "spiritual enjoyment" with her immediate family and other LC wives. She could not share intimate things with other sisters. This edict was enforced by the husband after he found out his wife asked another LC wife if daily forced intimacy regardless of health or feelings was normal, and that the wife could only say no after one daily occurrence. Both and LC sister and a counselor said that was not normal, and the counselor told the wife to only have intimacy when she wanted and was ready.

Elder/husband allegedly flipped out and threatened suicide and that he would need to obtain his intimacy needs from the children. Because the wife asked an intimate question of another LC wife the husband accused her of adultery and the coworker and some of the other elders apparently agreed, and the word lesbian was thrown about.

I have know several LC elders and can say that I'm pretty sure the above is not typical for most LC elders. But, the fact that the elder was supported by other elders and at least one coworker suggest that all is not right with the vetting of LC elders and review of allegations of improprieties.

Would you want to be associated with a religious group like this?

02-22-2021, 06:37 PM

This story of neglect and abuse happens one too many times in the LC. I actually would love to write up the story of a dear sister who actually was brave enough to speak on her testimony of being in the LC for 10 years and dealing with abuse from all sides of the church. She took down the video most likely cause of DCP and hate attacks from recovery hate bots . It will take me a good while to write a detailed synopsis of this dear sisters story. I would love to write it but for some reason their is no consistency on what the admins/mods allow for posts to past their wall/filter of permission. I love dear sister Nell and brother untohim but if my communication is cut off for no detailed reason, I'm not gonna pain my heart writing this story for everyone to see and remember this dear sister story, free from the prosecution of DCP, just for it to be shutdown from the getgo . Honestly the people at DCP must be hired from who knows what dark corner of the world. Like how the heck do you go to sleep at night if you are somewhat human? Probably the the wicked doctrine of "Be a God man not a good/ethical man".

UntoHim · 02-22-2021, 10:21 PM

Hey Z9, if you will just take a couple of minutes and register for the forum your posts will not have to go through the moderation que.

I have no idea what you mean by your "communication being cut off"

Thanks for your consideration.

Your brother who is unto Him.
-

gr8ful · 02-23-2021, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z9

...Honestly the people at DCP must be hired from who knows what dark corner of the world. Like how the heck do you go to sleep at night if you are somewhat human? Probably the the wicked doctrine of "Be a God man not a good/ethical man".

We don't need to make anyone out to be a monster to point out the result of their work is monstrous.

When I was in the LR (some family still is faithfully there), I got to know DCP principals personally. Themselves, their families. I got to know their heart for saints and sinners and saw many evidences of grace on many occasions. The ones I knew were the kinds of people you'd want as neighbors and would rejoice if they were personally looking after a loved one.

But there's something that happens when one has what I call "Cause Blindness." When one's devotion to a cause (of any kind) is so absolute it causes one to put aside personal convictions and character in service to The Cause, people do things, say things, and write things to "protect" The Cause that they would not even allow themselves to do to protect themselves from critique. And when The Cause is "God's Move on Earth Today," well... Good luck seeing through that!

Rather than demonize the individuals, I think it is more helpful to shine the light of truth on the work the group does. One doesn't have to be evil to err; just human.

Nell · 02-23-2021, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr8ful

We don't need to make anyone out to be a monster to point out the result of their work is monstrous.
...
Rather than demonize the individuals, I think it is more helpful to shine the light of truth on the work the group does. One doesn't have to be evil to err; just human.

What??? If someone IS a monster, they need to be exposed as a monster. Pointing out the results of monstrous behavior, after the fact, means there are victims who should have been protected. What about them?

You can't protect yourself, or someone else, from the "work" of monsters if you don't know who the monsters are. Women in "the office" could have protected themselves from Philip Lee if they had known he was a monster.

So, poor Philip Lee wasn't evil. He just err'd. He's just human.

This elder in OKC wasn't evil for abusing his wife and child, he just made a mistake...oops...he's just human...poor fella'.

So which is it? They behaved like monsters, or they're "just human"?

1 Timothy 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Nell

aron · 02-24-2021, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

1 Timothy 5:19-21
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

I think it's instructive to look at Jesus' rebukes. He didn't always rebuke people, but rather included the forces that the people fronted.

Two examples: 1) "Get behind me Satan" to Peter. It wasn't Cephas that was rebuked but the force behind Cephas, that had temporarily usurped him; 2) when he asked the man in the tombs, "Who are you" the man said, "Oh, there's a lot of us in here", instead of, "My name is Joe Johnson". The man wasn't the issue, it was the forces that had usurped the man.

The NT pattern shows me that yes, people do bad things, but our enemy is not people but the forces behind them. "We fight not against flesh and blood but the authorities, the forces of the air." For years I've said that WL's assertion that China was "virgin soil" for the Holy Spirit was a scam. China is full of fallen human vessels as well. Nothing virgin about it.

As soon as we realize who we are, what we are, we are less liable to be duped like that.

Nell · 02-25-2021, 07:26 AM

Whatever's going on in Oklahoma City seems to have similarly happened in Houston as well, in 2019.

Nell

HERn · 02-27-2021, 07:05 PM

https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetDocu...18-448&fmt=pdf

There was some kind of LC review of the elder/husband in this case. According to court records a meeting of LC leadership was held in Seattle in May 2019 concerning the alleged family problems with the OKC area elder. At that meeting it was disclosed that DHS had opened a sexual abuse investigation involving the elder/father. There is no indication of any decision by the collected leadership, but recently the blindeds issued their letter condemning the coworker and associated elders for bungling this family issue and bringing negative attention to the LC churches. So, I guess the blindeds took the side of the wife against the elder?

After the leadership meeting the elder/husband's lawyer filed a motion against the wife for disclosing private information about the DHS investigation. Apparently that information was not to be released and somehow the blindeds got wind of it. The wife's brother has some kind of status in the LC because he has the ear of the senior being blindeds, those who issued the condemnation of the coworker and his elders. The husband alleges that the wife gave that information to her brother who then informed the blindeds.

I'm thinking that the concept of deputy authority can wreak havoc when it's in the wrong hands. This reminds me of bro Ohio's comment that the LC is very good at creating bully elders out of brothers.

03-02-2021, 09:11 AM

You want to know the funny part of all this authority nonsense? Is that witness Lee has writings upon writings on the "qualifications" of an ideal deputy authority. If you were to read those writings on "deputy authority", you will realize that hardly anyone fits his description. In fact the current lords in Anaheim are the very people witness Lee says he wouldn't consider to be deputy authority at all. Just look at the ambitious Benson Phillips and his path of tear and destruction to achieve his dream of controlling the ministry in the palm of his hands. Ron kangas is the most insecure, power hungry, deceiving, and desperate power clinging man in the recovery.

Do you know one person I think of who I would even remotely trust in having such power and control- John Ingalls. Ingalls was meek, kind, understanding, devoid of pride, spoke in truth, did not lord over people. He was the sweetest man and as HERn quoted dear brother Ohio (come back brother Ohio)- the race to authority in the local churches makes Bullies out of brothers. Men like ingalls are torn apart and thrown to the side if they wish to grow in leadership while maintaining heir character. The authority figures in the recovery, this mainly is towards the coworkers but can apply to leading elders, chip away lots of attributes of a Christ living of a man to get where they are. If one is to abide by witness Lee teachings on what a brother should do in this situation and how he should liven and act- they will end up with this adulteration of inner self that is mixed with Lee doctrine and true teachings of Christ. Do you guys remember the portion of Lee life study of Colossians that was on the front page of this forum some days ago? How he said Christ does not want us to be humble, good, righteous, honest etc but to live as Christ/ God man. But he literally just described the very man he claims he wants the saints to be...... When you have this adulteration of scripture and twisted doctrine, imagine the things that can ensue. Imagine a leadership that is formed based on this adulteration...... Well we see it now and have seen it before, through all the "storms". Honestly if people like John Ingalls were the leaders of the recovery then the local churches wouldn't be in the disgusting mess they are in now.

Ron Kangas always liked to quote book of numbers for when "storms" come by and that's quite funny. He always trys to paint this image of him being a deputy authority like Moses. Well to the break the news Ron, you are nothing like Moses. You are insecure, power hungry, bear false witness against your brother, deciever, adulteraror of truth, and a man that domineers over those under him and rulen with an irongrip of fear and false pretense. To be as honest possible Ron, you are much more of a Saul then Moses. At least Saul was annointed by God, while you are just a man who got to where you were by appealing to other man. You are a man that lives to satisfy other man (this is the curse of a co-worker and elder in the recovery, to kowtow to man and abide by satisfaction of man).

Ron Kangas- A man who lives a heart of Saul. Never was a Moses and never will be a Moses. I'm sorry Ron but I'm judging you based on your actions, you have flaws that many men have and that is why it is better to admit and submit to your unrighteousness like Judah rather than be conceited in your position and go mad in power like Saul.

John Ingalls- A man who actually was like Moses, who spoke the truth in love and was torn apart by men with no love for good or affection ( 2 Timothy 3). Ingalls was a man of life and the coworkers in support of Philip Lee were those who hated "good" and clung to what is evil (the complete opposite and violated of Romans 12:9).

Hebrews 4:12, Jeremiah 17:10, Matthew 12:36 ( these verses should be a consideration for all men in positions of Authority and anyone really, but especially for those in authority.

People mess up and I'm assuming that the blended wish things could have been different, especially if it was anyone else but Philip Lee, things would not have gone so bad at all. But I believe Philip Lee was a test for all the authorities in Anaheim at the time and they failed miserably. Do not repeat the same Mistake, and for heaven's sake leave John Ingalls alone from slander. He is dead and was the sweetest man who acted as a man of God not a man who clung to evil based on adulterated teachings of doctrine and scripture. Find someone else for your punching bag. LEAVE INGALLS ALONE!

I might have more to say but at this point I think I am done for now

Z9, A man born, raised, and currently residing in the eastern seaboard of the USA.

UntoHim · 03-03-2021, 11:18 PM

Hey Z9,

Please take a minute and register by sending a request to Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com I'm quite certain that the UserName "Z9" is available!

***Concerning your post "Testimony of Neglect and Abuse", which is being held in the moderation que, we are attempting to contact this person so that he/she can verify the accuracy of the testimony.
-

05-15-2021, 01:20 AM

5/15 update: the special fellowship is still on the church in Oklahoma City website.

Covert · 05-15-2021, 07:53 AM

Is Colley Joseph still a functioning co-worker/ elder? I am curious if they put him down like a sick dog after that letter they mass mailed. Is he just living his remaining years in some locality in the boonies? Or is he still functioning as some leadership role in the LC/LR?

Nell · 05-15-2021, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covert

Is Colley Joseph still a functioning co-worker/ elder? I am curious if they put him down like a sick dog after that letter they mass mailed. Is he just living his remaining years in some locality in the boonies? Or is he still functioning as some leadership role in the LC/LR?

Follow this link from the original post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cal

The glorious Co-workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America are back at it with another post on shepherdingwords.com, this one accusing worker/elder Colley Joseph of heinous offenses. Any one know the details? I plan to make a video about it if I can get some background. Thanks!

https://shepherdingwords.com/letter-...stry-excerpts/

Covert · 05-15-2021, 08:53 AM

The coworkers took down what ever content that link led to, I know the original letter is in this thread but have no knowledge of the aftermath currently happening in OKC. What is OKC like now? Is it continuing with or without Colley?

Nell · 05-15-2021, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I received a copy of a letter supposedly written by the blindeds to the saints in the OKC area.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 14, 2021

To the leading brothers serving in the United States:

We hope that this letter finds you and the saints you are with empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength to render Him your full cooperation (Eph. 6:10). In this crucial time we must be diligent to keep the oneness and the one accord among all the local churches in His Body, which is the master key to all the New Testament blessings. At the same time we must also be cognizant that whenever God is moving, His enemy, Satan, is active to stir up problems. As Brother Lee taught us, we should expect turmoil as we journey together with the Lord (CWWL, 1989, vol. 4, 338-341). Such turmoils cause suffering and grief and, on occasion, demand a response from the Lord’s servants. Today we are faced with such a situation. Since 2018 co-workers have sought on numerous occasions to address two specific problems in the Oklahoma City-area (OKC-area) churches; however our counsel was rejected.

It is because of the extensive damage to the saints and the churches that we must now clearly state our standing regarding the serious problems resulting primarily from the actions of Brother Colley Joseph, a co-worker and elder in OKC. These actions have affected saints and churches not only in the OKC area but in many other places due to the widespread propagation of his improper, biased, and reviling emails. In broad terms, this situation involves principles related to two matters—the handling of family conflicts and the proper use of the Word and of the ministry of our brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. In this letter we initially would like to put forth a set of governing principles regarding these two matters.

First, in our dealing with family matters as leading ones in the churches, we should follow some basic principles. Although we are charged to care for the saints, there are boundaries we must observe, including in our touching of the saints’ marriages (The Collected Works of Witness Lee [CWWL], 1960, vol. 2, 245). Although we need to shepherd couples in troubled marriages, we should not intrude or attempt to adjudicate between right and wrong in family issues, lest we entangle the church in the dispute and factions ensue (CWWL, 1950-1951, vol. 1, 156-157). Moreover, the saints’ private affairs should remain private as much as possible. Publicly exposing failures can damage families and affect a person’s reputation and standing in society, invite litigation, and terminate the elders’ function. Brother Lee told us, “Whoever uncovers the defects, shortcomings, and sins of the members of the church is disqualified from the eldership. Our uncovering of the members under our eldership, our shepherding, annuls our qualification” (CWWL, 1994-1997, vol. 5, 124). Today there are also legal protections against character defamation that we all must respect (CWWL, 1984, vol. 2, 433; 1985, vol. 1, 494-495; vol. 2, 426).

Also, if a brother bearing responsibility is accused of serious wrongdoing, he should cease his serving unless and until his name is cleared and the saints are confident and peaceful that he resume his service. This withdrawing from serving by an accused brother is not to admit fault but to spare the church from much disquiet and to allow the brother to focus his attention on responding appropriately to the accusations against him. For example, to spare the churches, Brother Nee stopped his work and public ministry among the churches for six years due to false accusations that stirred up turmoil in the church in Shanghai.

Furthermore, we unequivocally condemn any form of abusive activity, including toward spouses or children in the context of a family or toward the saints in the context of the church, and do not agree with covering up any form of abuse, whether physical, sexual, or psychological (1 Tim. 3:2-5; see “A Letter from the Co-workers in North America” dated July 5, 2019; “Handing Allegations of Abuse”; and “Covering, Not Covering Up” on shepherdingwords.com). Moreover, although church governance and administration are not the state’s responsibility, we also affirm that the churches, and the saints within them, are bound to respect the laws, the courts, and other secular authorities as representatives of God’s authority in this age (Rom. 13:1-5; Titus 3:1-2).

Second, in handling both the Word and the ministry, we must exercise to be pure, putting aside any self-interest, including self-vindication. In our handling of the Word, we must be diligent to present ourselves “approved to God, an unashamed workman, cutting straight the word of the truth” (2 Tim. 2:15). In our dealing with the ministry, we must learn to apply it in an accurate, fair, and balanced manner, lest we misrepresent its teaching. For example, the Word of God shows us that the apostles, in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, appoint elders to oversee and administrate the churches (Acts 14:23; 20:28; Titus 1:5). This has been the ministry’s teaching and our practice for decades. However, a local church is not an autonomy, and its elders should not carry out their service as if it is. Brother Nee taught that when faced with making a decision, a local church “will not act presumptuously, using the excuse that the administration of churches is local; instead, it will consult the other assemblies” (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee [CWWN], vol. 22, 58). Brother Lee taught that the administration of a local church must be carried out under the vision of the Body of Christ and that we must see, know, care for, and honor the Body (CWWL, 1993, vol. 2, 106-107, 535-536, 538, 543-546, 548-549, 551-552). Also, the Bible shows us that the apostles have an ongoing relationship with established churches, including the responsibility to intervene if a church is in serious disorder or if an elder is improper (1 Cor. 1:11; 4:21; 11:34; 1 Tim. 5:19-21). Both Brother Nee and Brother Lee faithfully taught this (see “The Ongoing Relationship Between the Apostles and the Local Churches” on shepherdingwords.com and the attached “Ministry Excerpts Pertinent to Problems Arising in the OKC-Area”).

It grieves us to say that all of these principles have been trampled and, in some cases, attacked in the OKC area, causing much suffering to the saints, damage to churches, and confusion both in the OKC area and in other places. We wish to make it clear that we are not taking sides or passing judgment on any of the family issues. Rather, we are plainly stating our position regarding the unjustifiable and abusive mishandling of these matters and the misrepresentation of Watchman Nee’s and Witness Lee’s ministry.

We denounce and disassociate ourselves from how the marriage issues have been mishandled and the controversy that mishandling engendered. To be clear, we are not denouncing or disassociating ourselves from the churches, the saints, or the elders in the OKC area. Neither are we saying that only the OKC-area elders made errors, nor are we passing any kind of judgment on who is right and who is wrong in the conflicts within the marriages. Our concern is with the OKC-area leading ones’ inappropriate responses. When the conflict between a leading brother and his wife first emerged, the OKC-area leading ones erred by taking sides with their fellow leading brother against his wife. They abandoned the proper function of elders, which is to shepherd and feed all the saints (John 21:15-17; 1 Peter 5:2-3; Matt. 24:45), and became partisans. This destroyed any possibility that the elders could be a factor of reconciliation and inevitably led to the formation of parties within the church and the churches and the loss of many saints from the church life (Acts 20:28; 1 Pet. 5:2).

The OKC-area elders assumed an authority that they did not have to deal with a fellow leading one; if they felt that the matter needed adjudication, they should have referred it to leading co-workers who are qualified to exercise apostolic authority (1 Tim. 5:19; CWWL, 1965, vol. 4, 189-190). Instead, despite co-workers’ repeated requests, Colley refused to allow the leading brother to withdraw, even though the brother himself offered to do so. That refusal continued even after third-party professionals initiated an inquiry by the Oklahoma Department of Human Services. Whether the accusations made are true or not, the prudent action would have been for the brother to step aside from responsibility and from playing any public role in the church. Indeed, by not allowing him to do this, the elders caused some saints great concern, threw the church into turmoil, opened the door to potential civil litigation, and put the Lord’s recovery in danger of suffering irreparable public disgrace.

Colley took the lead to send out copious emails full of intemperate and vile accusations against the wives in the two marriage disputes. His sarcastic and reviling emails were blind-copied to many people and forwarded to many more. These unseemly emails exhibited extreme partiality and were a major factor in spreading contagion. They show that he constructed a biased and speculative narrative fairly early on, largely based on talks with one of the husbands, whom he said he believed from the day he returned from Belize on January 6, 2018, even before he spoke to the wife the following day. Subsequently, he incorporated additional “facts” that he felt supported that narrative and rejected anything that did not, including the findings of several professionals regarding allegations of child abuse. Throughout he exhibited a single-minded determination to convince others of the rightness of his opinions irrespective of the cost to the involved individuals and their families, to the saints, and to the churches.

We would remind you of the sober word concerning reviling that was given during message 4 of the October 2020 ITERO under section I.E. of the outline, concerning the mistreating of fellow believers. In that section a definition of reviling is given: “reviling is when we cause the saints to inwardly suffer pain or to be inwardly wounded by assailing and criticizing them harshly with abusive language.” Colley strongly and repeatedly made accusations and insinuations against saints of vile conduct and motives that we would not repeat here to spare you from defilement. Both the things he asserted and the language he used to do so were cruel, reprehensible, and misrepresent both the Lord and His recovery. In addition, he has continued to claim that one wife coached her children to accuse her husband of abuse, even though the accusations at issue were brought forth by third parties. Furthermore, a licensed professional who was counseling the children testified in court of seeing no indication of such coaching with one child and the impossibility of coaching with the other. That testimony stood as given and was not refuted; it became a factor in the judge’s decision to suspend the father’s visitation rights.

These scathing attacks extended beyond the sisters directly involved. He accused one sister’s extended family of being a “Klan,” engaging in Nazi-style propaganda, and seeking a “public execution” of her husband, saying that they wished him to be “skinned and then hung and then burned alive.” He said those who disagreed with him were the family’s “minions” whipped into a “hysteria” akin to the Salem witch trials. Faithful brothers in the Lord who urged restraint were dismissed as “mentally or intellectually challenged,” “morally dishonest,” and psychologically unfit. These were not isolated incidents but a pattern of behavior over more than two years manifested in literally hundreds of emails, some of which were addressed directly to the OKC leading ones. Even if his emails had been grounded with provable facts (and they were not), it is a grievous abuse to expose the saints’ private matters, to rail on their perceived failures and weaknesses, and to tarnish their reputations with such inflammatory language. It grieves us even to mention these words, but we are compelled to do so in an effort to recover, preserve, and establish saints who have been affected by them, as well as to set the record straight for others and for posterity that these aberrant actions do not represent the Lord or the ministry and the churches in His recovery.

Moreover, instead of counseling and modeling restraint as some of the co-workers advised him to do, more emails were sent out, deriding the co-workers who tendered that advice, saying that they were “overstepping,” “undermining,” “supporting division” and acting as “bishops” in a “hierarchy.” He characterized them as “‘shooting from the hip’ without a ‘full deck.’” He said that they drank the family’s “cool-aid” [sic] and that the saints who listened to them did the same because those co-workers “have more stars on their chest.” He misrepresented their counsel of restraint as advocating that the accused brother “be thrown under the bus, essentially be excommunicated.” When some co-workers visited the OKC area and spoke with some of the parties involved, he said that the sister in one of the disputes “played the brothers like a fiddle.” Brothers, such talk is unquestionably divisive.

After multiple occasions in which we had serious fellowship with him, he eventually agreed to stop his emails in which he attacked either the saints or the co-workers, but each time he continued his biased running commentary. Only after being told emphatically by one of the co-workers to “cease and desist” did he, at least initially, curtail his practice. There is no evidence, however, that he in any way has sought to undo the damage done by any of his emails.

Furthermore, we must denounce the misuse of the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee in an attempt to justify the errors made by the OKC-area leading ones in refusing the counsel of a number of co-workers. Again, this is not a denunciation of the brothers but of what they have done. Excerpts have been widely disseminated that misrepresent and intentionally distort the full ministry of our brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to support the notion that elders have autonomous authority without accountability over matters involving the churches and the saints in their localities. During the turmoil in the late 1980s Brother Lee strongly condemned the teaching of autonomy as a different teaching contrary to God’s economy (CWWL, 1988, vol. 3, 283-285, 386; 1988, vol. 4, 25, 95-96, 310; 1989, vol. 1, 377-379; 1989, vol. 4, 207; 1990, vol. 2, 196; 1993, vol. 2, 98, 270; see also Life-study of Genesis, 456). In the last stage of his ministry Brother Lee strongly charged us, “We need to be governed and controlled by this vision and see clearly that what we are doing is not the work of one local church but the work of one Body” (CWWL, 1994-1997, vol. 2, 333). Under the heading “The Erroneous Teaching of Autonomy” Brother Lee wrote, “Autonomous means ‘self-governed, independent’” (CWWL, 1989, vol.1, 277). The thrust of many emails that Colley has sent out is clearly designed to insulate the churches in the heartland area from any direct involvement of the leading co-workers in addressing the problems in the OKC area. This is a different teaching, a wind of teaching, that is contrary to God’s Word (1 Tim. 1:3; Eph. 4:14; CWWL, 1988, vol. 3, 386; 1989, vol. 1, 377-378; 1989, vol. 3, 406-407; 1993, vol. 2, 544-545). We must be faithful to warn you, as Brother Lee warned us all in 1989, that even spirituality or scriptural teachings, if overstressed, can become factors of division. Among the teachings he mentioned that could be used in this way were “the teaching concerning the headship of Christ, the teaching concerning all the churches being responsible directly to Christ alone, and the teaching concerning not exalting man” (CWWL, 1989, vol. 4, 383). The misuse of some of these teachings is exactly what the emails have been promoting. In addition, emails have been sent out to sow suspicion against any co-workers who might seek to render help in addressing the problems the churches in the OKC area have been facing. That is reprehensible and divisive. We have attached a set of excerpts that show that an insistence on the absolute authority of local elders is not according to the biblical principles presented through the ministry of Brother Nee and Brother Lee.

It is a matter of great sorrow to us that we must tell you that our brother Colley has, by such actions, disqualified himself from any further role as a worker or an elder among us. He has made serious errors in his handling of both the marriage conflicts and the truth. To revile saints disqualifies a brother from being either a co-worker or an elder. To ignore the possible committing of criminal abuse is likewise a serious lapse in judgment that we cannot disregard. The potential ramifications for the dear saints, their children, the churches in the OKC area, and the recovery as a whole are far too great. To misrepresent the truth likewise disqualifies a brother from participating in the work or the eldership (Titus 1:9). We have, therefore, instructed him to withdraw from his participation in both the work extra-locally and the eldership in Oklahoma City.

Please be assured that in spite of recent problems, we regard all the churches and saints in Oklahoma to be part of the Lord’s recovery. We have no intent to disassociate ourselves from or condemn the churches and the saints in Oklahoma but are instead clarifying that the aberrant actions and teachings of the leadership in the OKC area do not represent the ministry and the churches in the Lord’s recovery. Our strong desire is to shepherd, restore, and preserve all the saints and the churches that have been affected. We are compelled to be faithful to the responsibility that the Lord has given us for the churches and the entire Body to contact, to fellowship with, and to care for the saints and the churches (Acts 20:27, 31; 1 Thes. 2:7-8, 11). Because we consider the United States, the heartland, and the churches in Oklahoma to be a key part of the Lord’s move, our deep realization is that the churches and saints in Oklahoma must be healthy and strong for the Lord’s testimony.

It is our sincere hope and yearning that the leading ones in the OKC area would continue to join us in seeking the Lord to afford Him an opportunity to recover lost ground and take the churches there on in a healthy way. We are encouraging the brothers there to desperately seek the Lord and be humbled under His mighty hand, admit their errors, and repent, confess, and seek to reconcile with and restore others, thus inviting God’s mercy, lovingkindness, compassion, and grace (1 Pet. 5:5-6). We are very much before the Lord concerning how to co-labor with Him to set matters in order based on and governed by New Testament principles and our practice in the Lord’s recovery (1 Cor. 11:34b and footnote; 4:17). We ask you to encourage all the saints and churches to be vigilant to resist Satan, God’s enemy, who would seek to dishearten the saints and ultimately sow division among the churches—“For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies” (Eph. 6:12). To thwart his attack, it is vital that you join us in exhorting all the saints not to gossip, conjecture, or spread rumors or opinions among the saints by word of mouth or by any electronic means but to follow the leading of the co-workers and to pray for the Lord to manifest His victory and His glory.

We ask you to share this letter with those saints in the church who might benefit from it. Our sincere desire is that the Lord would use these words to preserve the uninformed, recover the wounded and deceived, and establish those who are troubled and wavering. We know that some saints may be troubled by this fellowship due to rumors they have heard. Please know that all of you are in our hearts (2 Cor. 3:2; 7:3). We also ask you, as leading ones in His recovery, to read together A Word of Love to the Co-workers, Elders, Lovers, and Seekers of the Lord, paying special attention to the last three chapters.

Before the Lord and for the sake of His testimony among us, we are compelled to take a public stance that is consistent with both our collective practice over many decades and the ministry we all esteem so highly. The actions taken by the leading ones in the OKC area have put all the churches in the entire recovery at substantial risk of being associated with extreme partiality and even with the appearance of a cover up. We are very grieved over this situation and the damage it has brought to the churches and the saints.

May the Lord pour out His abundant and unceasing mercy upon all the saints, including you brothers, that He may preserve us all faithful to the end (2 Tim. 4:7-8) and bountifully supply us to be those who co-labor with Him to tenderly shepherd and heal any wounded saints, to restore the sweet one accord in and among the churches, and to cause His testimony to shine brightly. May the Lord strengthen and bless His recovery.

Your brothers,

Albert Lim
Benson Phillips
Bob Danker
Chris Wilde
Dan Sady
David Koo
Dennis Higashi
Ed Marks
Jerry McGill
Jim Miller
Joe Davis
Ken Walker
Mark Raabe
Minoru Chen
James Lee
Marty Robert
Phil Delp
Ray Graver
Ricky Acosta
Rick Scatterday
Steve Watts
Ron Kangas
Ted Williamson
Tom Goetz
Tym Seay

Enclosed: Ministry Excerpts Pertinent to Problems Arising in the OKC Area

-
-

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sons to Glory! · 05-15-2021, 10:40 AM

My my - It's amazing the overwhelming proportion of citing WL/WN writings compared to citing scripture!

To me it demonstrates what an extreme and unhealthy focus there is on men and their speaking, rather than on God's own word. WL writings appear to have almost fully replaced scripture among these ones.

TLFisher · 05-15-2021, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z9

Ron Kangas always liked to quote book of numbers for when "storms" come by and that's quite funny.

It's not just Ron. It's part of the LSM/LC playbook whenever there's a storm, turmoil, or a forecast of a coming storm.
There is a youtube video where Mark Raabe speaks on the book of Numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUvTI9vaJ-Y

I believe there is a book the late Andrew Yu wrote around 1989/1990 where Numbers was quoted in response to a turmoil in that era.

OBW · 05-15-2021, 05:12 PM

I've not followed this from the beginning. But I note that a significant number of the signatures on the letter either are currently or were originally from Texas. Somehow that says a lot to me about the existence of the LC. It is mostly a Texas/California operation. And one of their own acted so thoroughly in character with the history of the LC that they had to censure him.

It's too funny to believe. Its the Fermentation turned on its head.

Nell · 05-15-2021, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I've not followed this from the beginning. But I note that a significant number of the signatures on the letter either are currently or were originally from Texas. Somehow that says a lot to me about the existence of the LC. It is mostly a Texas/California operation. And one of their own acted so thoroughly in character with the history of the LC that they had to censure him.

It's too funny to believe. Its the Fermentation turned on its head.

I noticed that too. Colley came into the church in Houston from LSU where he was groomed by Benson.

HERn · 09-12-2021, 07:40 PM

I can confirm that Colley Joseph is no longer serving as an elder in OKC.

UntoHim · 09-12-2021, 08:20 PM

What about Colley Joseph's status as a "Co-Worker" and "Blended Brother"? What was the final outcome of the case against the elder-brother which was the basis of this whole fiasco?
-

HERn · 09-12-2021, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What about Colley Joseph's status as a "Co-Worker" and "Blended Brother"? What was the final outcome of the case against the elder-brother which was the basis of this whole fiasco?
-

The brother who is an elder and accused of some type of abuse is remarried and still in good standing with the church. I don’t know the locality where Colley ended up or if he’s no longer being blended.

Robert · 11-07-2021, 11:31 AM

"January 14, 2021

To the leading brothers serving in the United States:

We hope that this letter finds you and the saints you are with empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength to render Him your full cooperation (Eph. 6:10). In this crucial time we must be diligent to keep the oneness and the one accord among all the local churches in His Body, which is the master key to all the New Testament blessings. (1)At the same time we must also be cognizant that whenever God is moving,(2) His enemy, Satan, is active to stir up problems. As Brother Lee taught us, we should expect turmoil as we journey together with the Lord (CWWL, 1989, vol. 4, 338-341). Such turmoils cause suffering and grief and, on occasion, demand a response from the Lord’s servants. Today we are faced with such a situation. Since 2018 co-workers have sought on numerous occasions to address two specific problems in the Oklahoma City-area (OKC-area) churches; however our counsel was rejected."

Really? Where it is written that this is condition. Oneness among local churches as key to all NT blessings? This is obvious that they created false doctrine and changed spiritual thing into earthly system. How we can experience oneness among cities? Practical. Give me example. I mean spiritual oneness among even two cities. City A let's say 40 saint and city B with 90 saints. Video conference?
If one group will move to another city than we already do not have fellowship among "cities" but fellowship in one city among saints.
Next; how we can experience spiritual oneness? By having one teaching and repeating same verses from MR? By reading the same ministry? Ok. This is kinda oneness. But don't other sects do the same? Is it so hard to create so called "oneness"?
Is our Lord so limited or He has forgot about something that thanks to WL fortunately we got this "missing element" after 2000 years?
So we see how they manipulate and twist words.

2. Poor Satan! Blended Brothers made even him unjustly guilty of all problems!
Seems, they did not read for long Bible with James 4:1-4
1From whence come warres and fightings among you? come they not hence, euen of your lusts, that warre in your members?

2Ye lust, and haue not: yee kill, and desire to haue, and cannot obtaine: yee fight and warre, yet yee haue not, because ye aske not.

3Ye aske and receiue not, because ye aske amisse, that yee may consume it vpon your lusts.

4Ye adulterers, and adulteresses, know yee not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoeuer therefore will be a friend of the world, is the enemy of God

And we can go on and go on through whole letter.

I noticed also how hypocrites are all brothers who signed letter.
Just look at Trapped first responses. He described situation but using general words. Even "child abuse" sounds terrible.
So how much more insensitive and boisterous was brothers ( yes, yes, brothers(!) they should more carefully read what they signed up because they affirm all what is written) who quoted this terrible words!!!!
Are they crazy? They accused and judged this brother for letters exposing sin and dirties but few lines down they do the same!?
I am one of receivers now and what can I think?
Actually turn of events was, that not knowing situation and details I've read post from sensitive Trapped who was more general but clearly describe what he knows.
And then "shepherding" letter from brothers.

We would remind you of the sober word concerning reviling that was given during message 4 of the October 2020 ITERO under section I.E. of the outline, concerning the mistreating of fellow believers. In that section a definition of reviling is given: “reviling is when we cause the saints to inwardly suffer pain or to be inwardly wounded by assailing and criticizing them harshly with abusive language.” Colley strongly and repeatedly made accusations and insinuations against saints of vile conduct and motives that we would not repeat here to spare you from defilement. Both the things he asserted and the language he used to do so were cruel, reprehensible, and misrepresent both the Lord and His recovery. In addition, he has continued to claim that one wife coached her children to accuse her husband of abuse, even though the accusations at issue were brought forth by third parties. Furthermore, a licensed professional who was counseling the children testified in court of seeing no indication of such coaching with one child and the impossibility of coaching with the other. That testimony stood as given and was not refuted; it became a factor in the judge’s decision to suspend the father’s visitation rights.
And then... they do the same exactly what they condemned!

These scathing attacks extended beyond the sisters directly involved. He accused one sister’s extended family of being a “Klan,” engaging in Nazi-style propaganda, and seeking a “public execution” of her husband, saying that they wished him to be “skinned and then hung and then burned alive.” He said those who disagreed with him were the family’s “minions” whipped into a “hysteria” akin to the Salem witch trials. Faithful brothers in the Lord who urged restraint were dismissed as “mentally or intellectually challenged,” “morally dishonest,” and psychologically unfit. These were not isolated incidents but a pattern of behavior over more than two years manifested in literally hundreds of emails, some of which were addressed directly to the OKC leading ones. Even if his emails had been grounded with provable facts (and they were not), it is a grievous abuse to expose the saints’ private matters, to rail on their perceived failures and weaknesses, and to tarnish their reputations with such inflammatory language. It grieves us even to mention these words, but we are compelled to do so in an effort to recover, preserve, and establish saints who have been affected by them, as well as to set the record straight for others and for posterity that these aberrant actions do not represent the Lord or the ministry and the churches in His recovery.

Moreover, instead of counseling and modeling restraint as some of the co-workers advised him to do, more emails were sent out, deriding the co-workers who tendered that advice, saying that they were “overstepping,” “undermining,” “supporting division” and acting as “bishops” in a “hierarchy.” He characterized them as “‘shooting from the hip’ without a ‘full deck.’” He said that they drank the family’s “cool-aid” [sic] and that the saints who listened to them did the same because those co-workers “have more stars on their chest.” He misrepresented their counsel of restraint as advocating that the accused brother “be thrown under the bus, essentially be excommunicated.” When some co-workers visited the OKC area and spoke with some of the parties involved, he said that the sister in one of the disputes “played the brothers like a fiddle.” Brothers, such talk is unquestionably divisive.

After multiple occasions in which we had serious fellowship with him, he eventually agreed to stop his emails in which he attacked either the saints or the co-workers, but each time he continued his biased running commentary. Only after being told emphatically by one of the co-workers to “cease and desist” did he, at least initially, curtail his practice. There is no evidence, however, that he in any way has sought to undo the damage done by any of his emails.

I am very sorry to see two names there. Bob Danker and Tom Goetz.
I've met them some years ago few times. With Bob I had fellowship and relationship. But after years, when brothers visited me, he was warned by one about my "independent thinkig". I could not recognize Bob. I could not feel the same as before. he was more... kind. If You know what I mean. That was sad...
Tom Goetz is more known from work with youths. Lovely brother but he also should read carefully letters or just be not blind. One of both.
Can You imagine that he as working with teenagers is after such a letter?

Wow!

Robert · 11-07-2021, 12:07 PM

"We ask you to share this letter with those saints in the church who might benefit from it. Our sincere desire is that the Lord would use these words to preserve the uninformed, recover the wounded and deceived, and establish those who are troubled and wavering. We know that some saints may be troubled by this fellowship due to rumors they have heard. Please know that all of you are in our hearts (2 Cor. 3:2; 7:3). We also ask you, as leading ones in His recovery, to read together A Word of Love to the Co-workers, Elders, Lovers, and Seekers of the Lord, paying special attention to the last three chapters."
First of all, I do not see any benefit from reading that letter. I assume, that they meant: "share with those, who follow us and will not discuss but agree wiht clapping hands".
For the next, surely I know almost nothing about that case.
But is it not strange, that local problem with some families could affect many churches, whole Body? How?
So what was the reason to spread this letter among churches in all States?
I see only desire to have power and control over local churches ( in real meaning).
Paul and James wrote letters to believers as brothers, telling how to conduct , behave among saints. Correcting, encouraging but not as people who have mental control.

Robert · 11-07-2021, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

It's not just Ron. It's part of the LSM/LC playbook whenever there's a storm, turmoil, or a forecast of a coming storm.
There is a youtube video where Mark Raabe speaks on the book of Numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUvTI9vaJ-Y

I believe there is a book the late Andrew Yu wrote around 1989/1990 where Numbers was quoted in response to a turmoil in that era.

Ups, Terry!
This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Living Stream Ministry.
Like good old trapper obliterating his tracks.

Ohio · 04-04-2022, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

- - - - - -
https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCase...8&cmid=3626245
- - - - -

This horrible situation in one LC family in OK City has been going on for years.

"Is there not even one among you who is wise?" -- I Cor 6:1-8

HERn · 09-12-2022, 06:57 PM

I’ve learned that Colley Joseph is no longer meeting with the saints in OKC or Norman. Not sure if he’s meeting anywhere.

Trapped · 09-24-2022, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I’ve learned that Colley Joseph is no longer meeting with the saints in OKC or Norman. Not sure if he’s meeting anywhere.

I think it would be difficult for him to be welcomed at any locality given that a warning letter was sent out about him. However, I'm guessing there are still brothers who think his behavior was okay and that he was wrongly treated and are still at least in touch with him. Everything is upside down in that world.

PriestlyScribe · 09-25-2022, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

Ups, Terry!
This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Living Stream Ministry.

That same video of Mark Raabe can still be watched here: https://www.bitchute.com/video/zDLA6dYKF7Ow/

P.S.

Ohio · 09-25-2022, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I’ve learned that Colley Joseph is no longer meeting with the saints in OKC or Norman. Not sure if he’s meeting anywhere.

Brother Colley Joseph was a faithful foot soldier “protecting the brothers” only following the pattern laid out for him by WL and the Blendeds. He merely took it to the extreme, so they had to cut their losses, and banish him.

PriestlyScribe · 01-12-2023, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Message by Colley Joseph on The Church in Oklahoma City website titled High Road to Marriage.

https://www.churchinokc.org/specialfellowship

This may not be posted for long.

Nell

That link is still working. I just listened to the entire message (directed toward YP regarding marriage) and felt it was actually quite good. Colley impressed me by not even mentioning WL in his message and only once during the Q & A - "brother Lee said that men are wolves". Ironically that statement fits MOTA rather well.

P.S.

Nell · 01-20-2023, 12:42 PM

Bringing to the top.

PriestlyScribe · 12-26-2023, 05:57 PM

Oklahoma Civil Court Document Opens Up Can Of Worms?

Read this at your own risk - it's nastier than fiction!

P.S.

alwayscurious · 12-26-2023, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Oklahoma Civil Court Document Opens Up Can Of Worms?

Read this at your own risk - it's nastier than fiction!

P.S.

Please be careful with reading this. I had to stop and continue multiple times through because of how difficult and disturbing it is. Words cannot explain. Trigger warnings include but are not limited to: SA, SA of Minor, Self Harm, Animal Death, Incest, & Violence.

Ohio · 12-28-2023, 07:05 AM

Moved post to another thread

kumbaya · 12-28-2023, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Moved post to another thread

I don’t see it, what’s it under?

aron · 12-29-2023, 03:48 PM

Does anyone know what happened with Joseph Colley son Benjamin Colley. Apparently he passed away in 2020. Whatever happened, my condolences-he was 47, much too young.

HERn · 12-30-2023, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Does anyone know what happened with Joseph Colley son Benjamin Colley. Apparently he passed away in 2020. Whatever happened, my condolences-he was 47, much too young.

I understand it was suicide. It must have been unbearable for the family. I hope others in the LC were able to comfort them.

aron · 12-31-2023, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

I understand it was suicide. It must have been unbearable for the family. I hope others in the LC were able to comfort them.

I don't want to force anyone to relive their pain, so will avoid the details of this case. But hearing this and remembering Greg Casteel, and knowing there are others, makes me want to raise a concept called 'learned helplessness', where someone is told over and over, eventually succumbing to the notion that there are no choices, and nothing they can do. Any attempts to act, think, or take responsibility for ones life is supposedly tantamount to rebellion against God.

With that as the backdrop, and facing a bleak "church life", the response is often despair, leading to self-harm or self-destruction. Or at the very least, a fog of sinking lethargy, and apathy.

I want to respect everyone's privacy & dignity, but we're facing a serious issue here. There's extensive research on learned helplessness and how it can affect families and and churches under controlling and abusive leadership.

kumbaya · 12-31-2023, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I want to respect everyone's privacy & dignity, but we're facing a serious issue here. There's extensive research on learned helplessness and how it can affect families and and churches under controlling and abusive leadership.

I agree that privacy should be respected here. I also agree that the environment is toxic for healing. 12 step programs might be accepted with an eye roll but when you’re indoctrinated as a child that those elders hold the answers- it’s got to be complicated to your healing. I’ve seen addicts/struggling people get temporary help in the LC. But no matter what they say, they can’t and don’t fix these issues. Trauma doesn’t just go away- it will keep affecting you unless you do the actual work which WL does not teach. Sorry, he doesn’t. Even if God is involved, it just doesn’t work that way. We can see in almost 2024 now what works and doesn’t through the research on these issues. My dad was an elder, but really he was just a CPA who had the capacity to do both. But they’re not trained in any sort of therapy- with maybe the fewest of exceptions. They’re not even mandatory reporters. I remember overhearing very serious things people would talk about with my dad. They use an arbitrary man’s words as their guidelines and can’t see the damage it does over and over again. I just don’t see this as a people problem- it’s a system problem. No one should counsel anyone in a church/elder situation without some sort of third party accountability and at least marginally accepted guidelines to follow. How arrogant to think Witness Lee’s words are the end all/be all to counsel people through all the hard things life throws at us? I know our culture is more aware of this now, but it sounds like they’re still doing things the same way. Im personally disturbed thinking about how grossly irresponsible it is. There’s a reason we need people in certain roles to be mandatory reporters. They have a responsibility to an organization bigger than themselves. Certain practices stop abuse and keep a safer environment for everyone. Local church elders take the title, but not the actual responsibility of doing this safely. I’m just sad and the whole thing is depressing. Since I stopped meeting with the local churches, I’ve heard of 4 suicides happening since around 2017. I knew 3 of them- all church kids. Two were kids of elders. When are they ever going to wake up? Will they ever? I just have to bless and walk away. I can’t be like them and think it’s my job to change or educate (they indoctrinate!) people on what I believe and my reasons behind my beliefs. One thing I’ve learned in the 7 ish years since leaving is that is not a job I need to take on. Recognizing that it’s difficult only bc I was raised to care what others think and change them- it is really freeing! I don’t have to take that on. Hallelujah!! (They don’t own that word either��)

PriestlyScribe · 12-31-2023, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

...where someone is told over and over, eventually succumbing to the notion that there are no choices, and nothing they can do. Any attempts to act, think, or take responsibility for ones life is supposedly tantamount to rebellion against God.

...or (as has played out in OKC - and in China with the two godly female co-workers whom Nee de-flowered) - the notion that any attempt to defend a "personal boundary" against an abuser in position of authority would render you an enemy of the cross of Christ!

Above quote is from STTIL page 21: https://www.johningalls.com/#/reader/chapter/15

Woe to the rapidly dwindling number of Witness Lee's Blended successors (along with their unquestioning Minions) who refuse to repent! An increasing amount of innocent blood is on their hands.

Yes Aron, you have brought up an important matter here (LC learned helplessness) which deserves much more of our attention and fellowship.
Thanks!

P.S.

Nell · 12-31-2023, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

“Pledge of Allegiance to Witness Lee” Thread

Moderators could you move these posts on the ministry to the “allegiance” thread since they mostly do not concern OK City?

Done. 1/1/24 - Nell

HERn · 12-31-2023, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I don't want to force anyone to relive their pain, so will avoid the details of this case. But hearing this and remembering Greg Casteel, and knowing there are others, makes me want to raise a concept called 'learned helplessness', where someone is told over and over, eventually succumbing to the notion that there are no choices, and nothing they can do. Any attempts to act, think, or take responsibility for ones life is supposedly tantamount to rebellion against God.

With that as the backdrop, and facing a bleak "church life", the response is often despair, leading to self-harm or self-destruction. Or at the very least, a fog of sinking lethargy, and apathy.

I want to respect everyone's privacy & dignity, but we're facing a serious issue here. There's extensive research on learned helplessness and how it can affect families and and churches under controlling and abusive leadership.

Aron, thanks for the post. Do you have any links on "learned helplessness"? I've never heard of it.

I think the weak, new, and sensitive saints in the LC have no agency. I think these kinds of people are prevented from acquiring agency. The only people who do are the elders, workers, and being-blinded brothers. These men reach into the lives of saints and wreck their sense of well-being, confidence, and even sow the seeds of marital conflict. In the LC elders have total agency and power, and sometimes convince troubled ones that if they leave the LC they can't go on with the Lord so that they even leave the Lord who saved them. The Bible tells us that teachers are held to a very high standard and are in danger of judgement if they harm a little one. I should say that I've know elders that don't seem to oppress the saints, but as Ohio has said if you are a man and have leadership abilities the LC training tends to produce "bullies" not shepherding elders.

I think we saw this in OKC with the leading elder (who was a baby blended brother) and other elders reaching into a marriage where the wife has testified to abuse, manipulation and control, where they blindly supported the husband who is an untouchable elder and had the benefit of "the covering" given to the brothers. I think it's interesting that after many months the being-blinded brothers reached into the OKC area and eventually convinced the elders to go along with the removal of the lead elder. (I wonder if this indicates that the LC is becoming a healthier place?) Remember, this lead elder went totally off the rails with hateful emails to the wife that were so full of hate and condemnation and apparently written in such haste such that the spelling and format errors were atrocious. They can be read via links in the earlier posts on this thread.

Does anyone know if the husband has been brought upon abuse charges based upon the statements in the court documents? He's a wealthy surgeon that had the money to hire lawyers to appeal a lower court verdict to a higher court that eventually ruled in favor of the wife.

I've asked God to pull down the satanic strongholds and interrupt the satanic strategies that evil angels have installed in the LC; and to bind satan and his angels who are involved in keeping order in the LC by holding in check the ambition, striving, jealousy, rebelliousness, and argumentative emotions of the LC leaders that would threaten the national leadership in the LC if expressed.

Happy New Year y'all!

01-21-2021, 02:12 PM	#1
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	What's going on in OKC? The glorious Co-workers in the Lord's Recovery in North America are back at it with another post on shepherdingwords.com, this one accusing worker/elder Colley Joseph of heinous offenses. Any one know the details? I plan to make a video about it if I can get some background. Thanks! https://shepherdingwords.com/letter-...stry-excerpts/

01-21-2021, 02:49 PM	#2
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: What's going on in OKC? Their accusations are accurate. Colley has been abusive, manipulative, spreading lies, rumors, slander, not showing impartiality, twisting scripture to come to conclusions that are not founded in basic logic, etc. In short - insane. But also right in line with what the local church produces in brothers.....but with a dash of volcanic lunacy mixed in. The issue is that the co-workers let it drag on for way too long, saints have been absolutely gutted by the toxic environment, rifts, etc that have been caused. But the co-workers were probably waiting to do anything that looks like "taking a stand" until the court case was decided, so that they could put out a conveniently-timed letter that makes it look like they were on the right side of things the whole time. It's a CYA move. And it's the same old story in the LC - unwilling to call sin and abuse what it is until it becomes a PR move to do so. They are right to do what they finally did. But they are also not the heroes; they are the incompetent "shepherds".

01-21-2021, 02:53 PM	#3
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: What's going on in OKC? To be clear, Colley has behaved that way in regards to a family abuse case. In other words, he was just "covering the brother".......like the leadership has been trained to do for decades. He viewed a legitimate problem as an "attack".....like the leadership has been trained to do for decades. His son also committed suicide sometime in the past ~6 months. I'm sure there were numerous factors behind his action, but his father's behavior and the latitude he was given to continue his behavior to the destruction of so many saints contributed to be sure. The co-workers have a lot of blood and tears on their head.

01-21-2021, 05:03 PM	#4
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: What's going on in OKC? Thanks Trapped. Can you give more details? How does his father figure in? Let's not succumb to LR "covering." When it comes to this group we have to get things into the light. Anybody else? I want to be fair about this

01-21-2021, 05:45 PM	#5
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? Not knowing any thing about the issue in this thread. But I've followed Trapped since his first post in this forum. So glad Trapped has improved from his trapped and sleepless agonies. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No ones comes to God the Father except by him. And thank you Cal for "I want to be fair about this". Praying for your videos to be in Jesus's way and truth and life.

01-21-2021, 08:00 PM	#6
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: What's going on in OKC? Cal, I think the most I can say is that there was a family, the husband/father of which was accused of some abuses that are punishable by law. These kind of abuses would not be things there are typically witnesses to. Colley took the accusation against the husband/father as an attack, and rather than allow the case to go through court with testimonies and witnesses and expert opinion to determine guilt, he went on a total warpath well before verdict, sending out mass communications almost day and night and using church gatherings to repeat the same, in an out of his mind attempt to defend the accused brother and absolutely trash and drag the victim(s) through the mud. Lies, misinformation, sordid details, salacious tidbits, using scripture to determine guilt or innocence in ways that made no logical sense whatsoever. Rather than the accused brother stepping back, he was promoted and lauded, making it uncomfortable for the saints to say the least. Saints desperately turned to the co-workers (after all they are the "apostles" today, right?) and the co-workers did what we all know they do - dragged their feet, shuffled around, delayed, made unsuccessful attempts to curtail Colley, and left the saints gasping for oxygen....because they aren't used to calling abusive behavior "abusive" and taking an actual and timely stand against sin and wrongdoing (because they "don't care about right and wrong" remember?). This letter from the co-workers is years too late. I can't add anything to my comment about Colley's behavior affecting his son without getting into the realm of conjecture, so I'll have to leave my comments at that. Unregistered, thanks for your expression of care. Hopefully it has been an encouragement over the few years I've been on the forum to see that God is faithful to wipe the dirt off confused and wounded members' glasses so they can see the truth more clearly.

01-22-2021, 02:02 PM	#7
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 960	Re: What's going on in OKC? I’ve met Colley a couple of times and heard him preach because I have an OKC connection. He’s a short guy who in college was a BMOC and praised as good building material. Like most of the being blinded coworkers he exudes stellar self confidence. His failure to yield to fellow blindeds early on suggests he had a high opinion of his status among them. In my opinion not someone I would want shepherding my family. Oh, how the mighty have fallen! __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry.

01-23-2021, 09:17 AM	#8
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 960	Re: What's going on in OKC? Looks like the 1/14/21 letter from the blindeds has been removed from the so-called shepherding website. Does anyone have a link to another location for the letter? I think there was a sentence in the letter where the blindeds stated that Colley was to move to a location where he would not be well known or "prominent"! Wow! I guess we'll find out if he can receive the discipline and function like a regular brother rather than a BROTHER. The quote was in a different letter that I have recently posted. __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry.

01-23-2021, 10:41 AM	#10
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: What's going on in OKC? Meehhh........they always say "this decision was not made lightly" and think that the phrase somehow covers their actions or lack thereof. Interesting that the link is still on the sw.com site, but the letters have been removed. Why not remove the links too? Maybe they are editing them in order to re-upload? I honestly will be surprised if Colley simply ups and moves to a new house/city "in fellowship" with the co-workers. I think he will consider that to be a gross overreach of the co-workers authority, delving into his literal home. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

01-23-2021, 03:53 PM	#14
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,056	Who are the blendeds? So has that question been answered? Albert Lim Dan Sady Jerry McGill Mark Raabe Phil Delp Steve Watts Tym Seay Benson Phillips David Koo Jim Miller Minoru Chen Ray Graver Ron Kangas Bob Danker Dennis Higashi Joe Davis James Lee Ricky Acosta Ted Williamson Chris Wilde Ed Marks Ken Walker Marty Robert Rick Scatterday Tom Goetz

01-23-2021, 09:56 PM	#18
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,797	Re: What's going on in OKC? Brother Andrew past away last month. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

01-25-2021, 08:18 AM	#20
Z9 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? It seems that the coworkers are actually helping victims of abuse now and transitioning from the overuse of "covering". Also trapped you seem to have info on this colley and his spreading of his own particular views of the Bible. Did Anaheim see him as a thread to the ministry and used the abuse case as a cover up to "dethrone" him from his coworker position or was the abuse case causing too much tension and it was last straw that was piling up on a ton of other issue he has had? Who is this Colley person and what are the factors that led to his falling from his administrative position?

01-28-2021, 09:55 PM	#24
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,056	Re: What's going on in OKC? Message by Colley Joseph on The Church in Oklahoma City website titled High Road to Marriage. https://www.churchinokc.org/specialfellowship This may not be posted for long. Nell

01-29-2021, 09:00 AM	#25
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,056	This disaster didn't begin in Oklahoma City "Co-workers in the Lord’s recovery in North America" were signatories on the January 14, 2021 letter posted on shepherdingwords.com which named Colley Joseph and announced his removal from functioning as an Elder and as a "Co-worker". What about the Elder he was defending for three years? There were no denials that this Elder had mistreated (to put it lightly) his family for three years. In fact, just the opposite. Is this Elder being sent away to another locality? Would it be safe to say that without the bad behavior of this Elder, none of this would have happened? Would it be safe to say that the failure of the leadership in Oklahoma City to "handle" the abuse by one of their own, lead to untold suffering of the wife and family of the offending Elder? Regardless of the massive, tedious quotations from the "ministry" of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee, how is that working out for them? A similar, widely publicized, situation occurred years ago when Ben McPherson was caught in sexual sin by Ray Graver. Ray reported to Benson Phillips, Joe Davis, Don Looper (deceased) and Don Rutledge. All were sickened by what McPherson had done and were ready to expose him publicly to the church, that all would be warned. Benson called Witness Lee with their intention. Benson allowed Lee to talk him/them out of it. Instead McPherson was banished to another locality in East Texas where he could "get some help". They were understandably sickened by his behavior and had no heart to "help" him. Witness Lee was nowhere to be found helping McPherson, and these men basically abandoned him. Years later, McPherson became a predator and seduced the wife of another Elder, divorced his own wife, she divorced her husband and they were married. So the massive volume of quotations from Witness Lee's "ministry" about caring for the flock have a deafeningly hollow ring. So which is worse, the "the ministry" of Witness Lee, or the practices of the "Co-Workers" and "Elders". No one violates the "ministry" of Witness Lee more than the very men who preach it. No one violated "the ministry" of Witness Lee more than Witness Lee himself. The hypocrisy began with Watchman Nee. See My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church by Dr. Lily Hsu. The hypocrisy continued with Witness Lee when his son, Phillip was caught seducing a sister in the Living Stream Ministry "office". When John Ingalls documented the fallout from this heinous behavior of Phillip AND Witness Lee, he ultimately resigned and went his own way. As Trapped said "I don't believe the issue was that Colley was a threat to the ministry. ... He was just doing what he was trained to do - view everything as an attack, view the brother perpetrator as innocent and the sister victim as guilty, and twist the Bible to give his views credence. That is how the co-workers are trained." Really? How so? If you want to remain in the Local Church of Witness Lee, in good standing, you are required to be “trained” by the following slogans which became “teachings”. As in any closed society, such as the so called "Lord's Recovery". the unwritten rules dominate the culture. This is only a few of the teachings of Witness Lee which have been interpreted into practice: Attack: Anyone who tells the truth about Lee, LSM, is attacking. Authority: Cover the brothers: WLee's sons got caught molesting the church secretaries and Lee covered it up. Classification: Negative "Don't say anything negative." Family: If you take care of the Church, God will take care of your family. Fellowship: means "permission. "Don't do anything without permission." ... without “fellowship From “the brothers”. Ministry: Life: We only care for life. (Truth is secondary to "life".) Ministry: Oneness: means "Do what you are told." Name calling: Little grinders: Witness Lee term for children. Rebellion: Anyone who mentions Witness Lee's sons. Rebellion: Disagree with Lee's ministry, Slogan: Get out of your mind. Stop talking. Stop telling the truth. Slogan: I don't have the peace. Means: I don't want to. Slogan: Turn to your spirit. (Cover your ears, shake your head, la la la la la la la la.) Slogan: You're in your mind. Diminish another’s own ability to think/choose Mind: Talk over members as if they "know" what is best. Storms, Turmoil: The consequences of telling the truth of Lee's ministry, LSM, Blendeds, "Co-Workers", and Elders is told. Perhaps the worst, most insidious teaching of all is this one: Benson Phillips: "All Non-Local Churchers are Unsanctified and Bankrupt" “In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery” The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis added This is heretical. This teaching flies in the face of the redemptive work of Christ. This teaching is the most common stumbling of those who post on the forum about the suffering they are experiencing in the Local Church of Witness Lee. They stay in the Local Church of Witness Lee because they are threatened. They are afraid to leave. Despite the "assurance" of Benson, this speaking is a lie of the devil. It teaches fear. The most common commandment by Jesus in the New Testament: fear not. Nell

01-30-2021, 09:08 PM	#28
Z9 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? Nell, has colley been dismissed from his position as coworker and elder yet cause from those recent messages you have linked- he still seems like the top dog at the church in OKC.... Do you think Colley will just give in like that and bow down like some sick dog about to be put to sleep? Or will he put some spunk and spice in his resistance? How is the reaction of Colley and the locality as a whole from the letter? I assume the word has gone around all over the USA of the letter of dismissal. So gossip must be consuming a multitude of localities. Well, I wonder how the dethronement of a coworker is going to pan out. I doubt it will be anything remotely close to a civil war of division like excommunication of Titus Chu but this does make an award and tense situation as he is a well known CoWorker and not some random brother being banished.

02-06-2021, 05:09 PM	#33
Z9 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? Well it does not look like Colley backing down from his dethronement due this his recent messages and "special fellowships" that are still up on the website. I mean this would be one heck of a feat if Colley is able to ward off the demands of the blended coworkers and at a minimum continue being an elder in OKC. But I doubt he could realistically ever be a functional coworker and travel around the world without a "wanted" bounty on his head. Final questions 1. Is the state of the church in OKC as bad as Anaheim was during the Philip lee storm (late eighties)? Is the church being ripped apart and is there civil war of sides being taken to an extent that will mark this event as another "storm" in LC history. So far there is about 2 main storms right? The excommunication of elders reproaching Philip lee and the excommunication of Titus Chu that led to the Midwest having 2 churches siding with either the blenders or Titus. Maybe if colley continues being stubborn this will be the third major storm. 2. What is the current situation for Colley as of now? I mean how long can he continue giving "special fellowships" and speaking roles after the demands of the blended has been spoken? 3. Who is this abusive elder that is causing all this chaos in the first place? Announce his name and give detils on his background, and put him on the wall of shame along with Philip Lee and Ben McPherson for his failure as a husband and father. If Philip lee and McPherson are on public forums for their acts then he can certainly to.

02-06-2021, 08:10 PM	#35
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 960	Re: What's going on in OKC? I don't like listening to the messages of the being blinded brothers, but I wanted to listen to something by Colley that was current given the strong hand of Anaheim against him. I skipped through a couple of messages and what caught my attention was that I did not find a single time that Colley quoted the ministry. I did not listen to the entire messages. In every case he reasoned from scripture not the ministry. So, are the blindeds against Colley because he is using the bible more than the ministry in his preaching? I don't know, but it's interesting that Colley seemed self deprecating when speaking compared to the pontificating of the blindeds with their false gravitas. https://www.churchinokc.org/specialfellowship __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry.

02-08-2021, 07:53 PM	#39
Z9 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? Well at least we got something out of this 1. We know the North American Coworkers by name 2. There is friction among coworkers in regards to popularity, power, and influence. As seen in the email in regards to colley analogy with the blendeds having more "stars" on their chest. 3. Maybe Colley emails sparked something within some leading elders and Coworkers around the globe in regard to the idea of following the path of Autonomy or Authority. I read the email by Doug Kroger I believe when he was an elder in Berkeley. The convo between him and Lee really displayed Lee early interest for the local church to bow to him. Ever since that convo in Northern California it's been full on dictatorship by a few men in Anaheim following the death of witness Lee. Is the feeling of Colley felt across the minds of elders and 1 star general coworkers (hahaha)? Will Colley be a Martyr for the potential of uprising between localities being free from the Iron Grip of Anaheim? Or will he just be another example of a passing storm? Who will be the person to break the chains of Anaheim? - As someone said earlier I wonder how Colley will ever have a peaceful transition from Coworker to just a regular ole brother - Someone who has connections to OKC ( I think HERn), would you mind giving an update on Colley? 4. Someone get the exact name of that scumbag "elder" who caused harm to his family. What an absolute failure of a husband and Father,he had no Christ in him to do such a thing. Glad the courts suspended his visitation to his kids since LC seems to think Elders are beyond reproach and are deputy authority of a locality. Just the idea of deputy authority is so cringe and full of insecurity and fear mongering. 5. The Blended reacted in the side of the abusers and against colley because they were no longer in control of anything. That full email Trapped shown, shows in my opinion that the domestic issues went through the court system and had a public display of the failure of the "covering system". Colley Joseph was not Bowing down to the "General Secretary" of the United Saints of the Lords Recovery "USLR" and fought back with emails emphasizing autonomy and authority. So overall due to their losing battle of control they went against their usual principles. If the domestic issues never went to the courts and succeeded- then I believe that poor woman and her kids would have been subject to that piece of dung and poor excuse of a father and husband. If Colley had not revolted then the potential possibility of a movement throughout the LC following autonomy and not authority can potentially could never happen. Although the chances of that happening are quite slim but hey even a Kool Aid drinking long time member like Colley eventually gets fed up with the iron grip of Anaheim (but for this case it was for the wrong reasons as Colley wanted to suppress the victims). Regardless the victims got justice to an extent due to the "secular courts" and now that bastard is on public record for his ignominy.

02-09-2021, 08:29 PM	#40
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? - - - - - - https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetCase...8&cmid=3626245 - - - - -

02-14-2021, 09:46 AM	#42
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? Could you please point us to the actual PDF doc or at least the date of PDF?

02-14-2021, 01:03 PM	#45
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 960	Re: What's going on in OKC? OK, OK! https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetDocu...18-448&fmt=pdf Gotta scroll way down to the bottom. Looks to me like an Anaheim strategy to get the trash into the court record so that it would become public. Can anyone explain the 1/15/2021 handwritten date in the top right hand corner of the document? __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry.

02-14-2021, 01:35 PM	#46
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: What's going on in OKC? Ah! You and I had the same one in mind. No idea what the 1-15-21 date was. The trash by Colley looks to be turned in by someone on the wife's side, so the attorney knows what the wife was subjected to at the hands of the "elders" of the church. My understanding is that the email you see there is representative of the torrent of similar ones Colley sent out over a prolonged period of time. No impartiality. No sobermindedness.

02-17-2021, 12:20 PM	#47
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 960	Re: What's going on in OKC? Does anyone have a link to the court record of the alleged assault by the husband on the wife at Dairy Queen in OKC? __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. Last edited by HERn; 02-17-2021 at 07:08 PM.

02-22-2021, 03:49 PM	#50
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 960	Re: What's going on in OKC? Bring the hidden things of darkness into the light. Rebuke the elders among you so that the others may learn. There is much to be learned about what certain elders in the Recovery believe about marriage and other issues from the court records and included emails in this very sad case. Because fellow OKC-area elders and at least one coworker aligned themselves with the out of line husband/elder in Edmond even to the extent of alleging the wife was an adulterous lesbian with no physical evidence the LSM Anaheim coworkers had to throw the OKC-area elders and their coworker under the bus. This was partly because during the court trial evidence was presented by counselors, social service investigators which was agreed to by the children's Guardian ad litem that the children were subjected to religious abuse in the home and sexual molestation by the elder/father. The court has not ruled on the matter, but has restricted the father's visitation with the children. Information from the emails included in the court documents alleged that the elder/husband attempted to exercise control over the body, soul, and spirit of his wife. She was restricted to sharing only "spiritual enjoyment" with her immediate family and other LC wives. She could not share intimate things with other sisters. This edict was enforced by the husband after he found out his wife asked another LC wife if daily forced intimacy regardless of health or feelings was normal, and that the wife could only say no after one daily occurrence. Both and LC sister and a counselor said that was not normal, and the counselor told the wife to only have intimacy when she wanted and was ready. Elder/husband allegedly flipped out and threatened suicide and that he would need to obtain his intimacy needs from the children. Because the wife asked an intimate question of another LC wife the husband accused her of adultery and the coworker and some of the other elders apparently agreed, and the word lesbian was thrown about. I have know several LC elders and can say that I'm pretty sure the above is not typical for most LC elders. But, the fact that the elder was supported by other elders and at least one coworker suggest that all is not right with the vetting of LC elders and review of allegations of improprieties. Would you want to be associated with a religious group like this? __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. Last edited by HERn; 02-22-2021 at 09:38 PM.

02-22-2021, 06:37 PM	#51
Z9 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? This story of neglect and abuse happens one too many times in the LC. I actually would love to write up the story of a dear sister who actually was brave enough to speak on her testimony of being in the LC for 10 years and dealing with abuse from all sides of the church. She took down the video most likely cause of DCP and hate attacks from recovery hate bots . It will take me a good while to write a detailed synopsis of this dear sisters story. I would love to write it but for some reason their is no consistency on what the admins/mods allow for posts to past their wall/filter of permission. I love dear sister Nell and brother untohim but if my communication is cut off for no detailed reason, I'm not gonna pain my heart writing this story for everyone to see and remember this dear sister story, free from the prosecution of DCP, just for it to be shutdown from the getgo . Honestly the people at DCP must be hired from who knows what dark corner of the world. Like how the heck do you go to sleep at night if you are somewhat human? Probably the the wicked doctrine of "Be a God man not a good/ethical man".

02-22-2021, 10:21 PM	#52
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,797	Re: What's going on in OKC? Hey Z9, if you will just take a couple of minutes and register for the forum your posts will not have to go through the moderation que. I have no idea what you mean by your "communication being cut off" Thanks for your consideration. Your brother who is unto Him. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

02-25-2021, 07:26 AM	#56
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,056	What's going on in Houston? Whatever's going on in Oklahoma City seems to have similarly happened in Houston as well, in 2019. Nell

02-27-2021, 07:05 PM	#57
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 960	Re: What's going on in OKC? https://www.oscn.net/dockets/GetDocu...18-448&fmt=pdf There was some kind of LC review of the elder/husband in this case. According to court records a meeting of LC leadership was held in Seattle in May 2019 concerning the alleged family problems with the OKC area elder. At that meeting it was disclosed that DHS had opened a sexual abuse investigation involving the elder/father. There is no indication of any decision by the collected leadership, but recently the blindeds issued their letter condemning the coworker and associated elders for bungling this family issue and bringing negative attention to the LC churches. So, I guess the blindeds took the side of the wife against the elder? After the leadership meeting the elder/husband's lawyer filed a motion against the wife for disclosing private information about the DHS investigation. Apparently that information was not to be released and somehow the blindeds got wind of it. The wife's brother has some kind of status in the LC because he has the ear of the senior being blindeds, those who issued the condemnation of the coworker and his elders. The husband alleges that the wife gave that information to her brother who then informed the blindeds. I'm thinking that the concept of deputy authority can wreak havoc when it's in the wrong hands. This reminds me of bro Ohio's comment that the LC is very good at creating bully elders out of brothers. __________________ Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry.

03-02-2021, 09:11 AM	#58
Z9 Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? You want to know the funny part of all this authority nonsense? Is that witness Lee has writings upon writings on the "qualifications" of an ideal deputy authority. If you were to read those writings on "deputy authority", you will realize that hardly anyone fits his description. In fact the current lords in Anaheim are the very people witness Lee says he wouldn't consider to be deputy authority at all. Just look at the ambitious Benson Phillips and his path of tear and destruction to achieve his dream of controlling the ministry in the palm of his hands. Ron kangas is the most insecure, power hungry, deceiving, and desperate power clinging man in the recovery. Do you know one person I think of who I would even remotely trust in having such power and control- John Ingalls. Ingalls was meek, kind, understanding, devoid of pride, spoke in truth, did not lord over people. He was the sweetest man and as HERn quoted dear brother Ohio (come back brother Ohio)- the race to authority in the local churches makes Bullies out of brothers. Men like ingalls are torn apart and thrown to the side if they wish to grow in leadership while maintaining heir character. The authority figures in the recovery, this mainly is towards the coworkers but can apply to leading elders, chip away lots of attributes of a Christ living of a man to get where they are. If one is to abide by witness Lee teachings on what a brother should do in this situation and how he should liven and act- they will end up with this adulteration of inner self that is mixed with Lee doctrine and true teachings of Christ. Do you guys remember the portion of Lee life study of Colossians that was on the front page of this forum some days ago? How he said Christ does not want us to be humble, good, righteous, honest etc but to live as Christ/ God man. But he literally just described the very man he claims he wants the saints to be...... When you have this adulteration of scripture and twisted doctrine, imagine the things that can ensue. Imagine a leadership that is formed based on this adulteration...... Well we see it now and have seen it before, through all the "storms". Honestly if people like John Ingalls were the leaders of the recovery then the local churches wouldn't be in the disgusting mess they are in now. Ron Kangas always liked to quote book of numbers for when "storms" come by and that's quite funny. He always trys to paint this image of him being a deputy authority like Moses. Well to the break the news Ron, you are nothing like Moses. You are insecure, power hungry, bear false witness against your brother, deciever, adulteraror of truth, and a man that domineers over those under him and rulen with an irongrip of fear and false pretense. To be as honest possible Ron, you are much more of a Saul then Moses. At least Saul was annointed by God, while you are just a man who got to where you were by appealing to other man. You are a man that lives to satisfy other man (this is the curse of a co-worker and elder in the recovery, to kowtow to man and abide by satisfaction of man). Ron Kangas- A man who lives a heart of Saul. Never was a Moses and never will be a Moses. I'm sorry Ron but I'm judging you based on your actions, you have flaws that many men have and that is why it is better to admit and submit to your unrighteousness like Judah rather than be conceited in your position and go mad in power like Saul. John Ingalls- A man who actually was like Moses, who spoke the truth in love and was torn apart by men with no love for good or affection ( 2 Timothy 3). Ingalls was a man of life and the coworkers in support of Philip Lee were those who hated "good" and clung to what is evil (the complete opposite and violated of Romans 12:9). Hebrews 4:12, Jeremiah 17:10, Matthew 12:36 ( these verses should be a consideration for all men in positions of Authority and anyone really, but especially for those in authority. People mess up and I'm assuming that the blended wish things could have been different, especially if it was anyone else but Philip Lee, things would not have gone so bad at all. But I believe Philip Lee was a test for all the authorities in Anaheim at the time and they failed miserably. Do not repeat the same Mistake, and for heaven's sake leave John Ingalls alone from slander. He is dead and was the sweetest man who acted as a man of God not a man who clung to evil based on adulterated teachings of doctrine and scripture. Find someone else for your punching bag. LEAVE INGALLS ALONE! I might have more to say but at this point I think I am done for now Z9, A man born, raised, and currently residing in the eastern seaboard of the USA.

03-03-2021, 11:18 PM	#59
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,797	Re: What's going on in OKC? Hey Z9, Please take a minute and register by sending a request to Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com I'm quite certain that the UserName "Z9" is available! *Concerning your post "Testimony of Neglect and Abuse", which is being held in the moderation que, we are attempting to contact this person so that he/she can verify the accuracy of the testimony. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11**

05-15-2021, 01:20 AM	#60
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: What's going on in OKC? 5/15 update: the special fellowship is still on the church in Oklahoma City website.

05-15-2021, 07:53 AM	#61
Covert Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 63	Re: What's going on in OKC? Is Colley Joseph still a functioning co-worker/ elder? I am curious if they put him down like a sick dog after that letter they mass mailed. Is he just living his remaining years in some locality in the boonies? Or is he still functioning as some leadership role in the LC/LR?

05-15-2021, 08:53 AM	#63
Covert Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 63	Re: What's going on in OKC? The coworkers took down what ever content that link led to, I know the original letter is in this thread but have no knowledge of the aftermath currently happening in OKC. What is OKC like now? Is it continuing with or without Colley?

05-15-2021, 10:40 AM	#65
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,614	Re: What's going on in OKC? My my - It's amazing the overwhelming proportion of citing WL/WN writings compared to citing scripture! To me it demonstrates what an extreme and unhealthy focus there is on men and their speaking, rather than on God's own word. WL writings appear to have almost fully replaced scripture among these ones. __________________ LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!

05-15-2021, 05:12 PM	#67
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: What's going on in OKC? I've not followed this from the beginning. But I note that a significant number of the signatures on the letter either are currently or were originally from Texas. Somehow that says a lot to me about the existence of the LC. It is mostly a Texas/California operation. And one of their own acted so thoroughly in character with the history of the LC that they had to censure him. It's too funny to believe. Its the Fermentation turned on its head. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel