A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

God is just and does not condemn the innocent (2 Thess 1:6). People who end up in hell are not innocent but are reaping what they have sown.

Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Also "Innocent" has to be from God's point of view. What the world views as innocent is perhaps different from what an eternal, all powerful, all knowing God considers "innocent" and only his point of view matters because he is the Judge.



The suffering in this world, including the suffering of the Jewish people is not a result of God's wrath, though God can allow it by simply lifting his hand of protection. Matthew 12:20 seems to suggest that God won't lift a finger to judge the world until the "Day of the Lord". I guess this kind of contradicts Cahn's warning of judgment happening before Jesus comes-- unless it also coincides with the Day of the Lord / Daniel's 70th week and the events described in Revelation. Or perhaps God views these events as warnings rather than judgment, (God chastises his children because he loves them, Hebrews 12:6).

Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory.

I believe God is okay with allowing suffering because those who suffer will have their mourning made up for in eternity as was the case of Lazarus (Luke 16:14-31). However the rich man who enjoyed his life but ignored the poor suffered a horrible fate that could not be undone. Those who are first will be last and vice versa. The sermon on the mount also echoes this principle such as

Matthew 5:4
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

Our current life is like a vapor or mist, we are here today and gone tomorrow (James 4:14). But because human experience is limited to the life we live in this world, we tend to overvalue our own life at the cost of our eternity, something that Jesus warned about a lot (Luke 9:60, Matthew 16:26). From the viewpoint of time, the only thing that matters is eternity and the decisions we make in this life that affect ours and other's eternity. Hence, the suffering that really matters in God's eyes, is the suffering that happens in eternity which trumps any suffering that happens while we are alive on this earth.

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Take heart bro bearbear. Lots of minds greater than yours and mine have tried to tackle the problem of how a all powerful, all knowing, all loving, God can allow evil.

I remember Lee claiming that he could explain the purpose of God from the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation. That, for example, both had the tree of life and the serpent.

But what was missed, or untold by Lee, is that they both have an angry wrathful God. In fact, step back and look at the OT God, and the God in Revelation, and it's like the death of Jesus on the cross didn't count. God was angry and wrathful before the cross and angry and wrathful afterwards; like God said or thought, "I gave my son as a sacrifice for the sin of the world, to forgive them," but ... but, "oh hell, forget the cross, I'm just going back to being angry and wrathful."

And bearbear, you can throw Bible verses at it all day long, and twist your logic into a bag of pretzels, but you can't get around it.

In the end the problem is the book of Revelation. It just doesn't belong in the canon.

It causes crazies, like Lee and Cahn. And I think you, my brother, are at risk, if you keep struggling with trying to solve the impossible, even with Bible verses.

Unless you just admit:

Isa 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

But what was missed, or untold by Lee, is that they both have an angry wrathful God. In fact, step back and look at the OT God, and the God in Revelation, and it's like the death of Jesus on the cross didn't count. God was angry and wrathful before the cross and angry and wrathful afterwards; like God said or thought, "I gave my son as a sacrifice for the sin of the world, to forgive them," but ... but, "oh hell, forget the cross, I'm just going back to being angry and wrathful."

As I was pondering aron's take on the Holy Spirit and why Jesus said he could not go up unless the Holy Spirit came down, I got a revelation of what the reason behind this principle could very well be.

*Just what if* it was because Father God was so holy and by default wrathful against sin that he requires someone to intercede in front of him for mankind 24/7 (and it had to be either the Holy Spirit or the Son of God), otherwise he would immediately leave his throne and pour out his wrath on the earth? Perhaps this type of intercession did not happen during OT times, which would explain the regular outpourings of wrath such as Noah's flood. And it was Moses who was required to intercede before God out of his own free will multiple times, or else the children of Israel would have been long wiped out.

And when Jesus comes back, he's leaving his place in heaven for the first time after his ascension where he was interceding for us as our heavenly High Priest to take his rightful rule over the world as King. This also just *happens* to coincide with God pouring out his wrath on the earth for the first time since hundreds of years before Jesus even.

The question is, was the Holy Spirit interceding for us while Jesus was on earth and even perhaps before then? There are verses that indicate that intercession is one of the Holy Spirit's roles.

Romans 8:26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

Isaiah 26:20
Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

like God said or thought, "I gave my son as a sacrifice for the sin of the world, to forgive them," but ... but, "oh hell, forget the cross, I'm just going back to being angry and wrathful."

This question coincides with a great debate between Calvinists and Arminians.

Limited atonement view:
Jesus just died only for his elect. God only loved the ones he chose and saved.

Unlimited atonement view:
God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone. It's up to others to accept his gift with their free will as God cannot force himself on them. Unfortunately few do.

In both cases the majority who do not accept Jesus are damned. Yet Jesus' sacrifice still makes a difference because the ones who are saved from God's wrath would have never stood a chance without it. I find support in scripture for both views, and one may not necessarily rule out the other in the logic that God operates in which may be beyond our own time-based, finite minds.

Ephesians 2:1-6

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Jesus also considered those who were destined to hell as "dead" (Luke 9:60) and he told the Sadducees that God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead. Ultimately those who make it are the ones who matter, and the ones who don't, don't have any share in the next age and hence God does view them as if they were 'dead'. If it were not for Jesus there would be no humans asides from Jesus 'alive' by God's definition and eternal viewpoint as everyone would have been an deserving object of his wrath.

Hence, anything God does for us, is unmerited, undeserved; it is *grace*. If God were simply "fair" by his own definition, we'd all be screwed. But because God is loving and merciful we received grace through Jesus Christ.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

This question coincides with a great debate between Calvinists and Arminians.

Limited atonement view:
Jesus just died only for his elect. God only loved the ones he chose and saved.

Unlimited atonement view:
God loves everyone and Jesus died for everyone. It's up to others to accept his gift with their free will as God cannot force himself on them. Unfortunately few do.

In both cases the majority who do not accept Jesus are damned. Yet Jesus' sacrifice still makes a difference because the ones who are saved from God's wrath would have never stood a chance without it. I find support in scripture for both views, and one may not necessarily rule out the other in the logic that God operates in which may be beyond our own time-based, finite minds.

Ephesians 2:1-6

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Jesus also considered those who were destined to hell as "dead" (Luke 9:60) and he told the Sadducees that God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the God of the living and not the dead. Ultimately those who make it are the ones who matter, and the ones who don't, don't have any share in the next age and hence God does view them as if they were 'dead'. If it were not for Jesus there would be no humans asides from Jesus 'alive' by God's definition and eternal viewpoint as everyone would have been an deserving object of his wrath.

Hence, anything God does for us, is unmerited, undeserved; it is *grace*. If God were simply "fair" by his own definition, we'd all be screwed. But because God is loving and merciful we received grace through Jesus Christ.

------There is a considerable number of scriptures which contradict the conclusions that you may be drawing from Ephesians. In addition, the verses you quote in Ephesians 2 contradicts 1 Corinth 15. Furthermore, the first two verses listed below in 1 Peter show that God is merciful even to those who died and had rejected him.
1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits IN PRISON who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those WHO ARE NOW DEAD
----- Furthermore, there is ample evidence that God of the NT is merciful and forgiving and will not allow any person to be lost… here is just a sample of the scriptures which portray a loving God…
Matthew 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that ANY of these little ones should be lost.
Luke 3:6 And ALL mankind will see God’s salvation.
John 12:32 when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself.
John 12:47 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the WORLD, but to SAVE IT.
John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to ALL those you have given him.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save THE WORLD through him.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL men.
Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us ALL—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:38-39 nor ANYTHING else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them ALL.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 God was reconciling THE WORLD to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.
Ephesians 1:9-10 to bring ALL things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
Philippians 2:9-10 at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Colossians 1:19-20 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL men
1 Timothy 4:9-10 who is the Savior of ALL men
-----It is also interesting to note that God is not judging the world as is commonly thought but the saints….
1 Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? ….verse 3…Do you not know that we are to judge Angels?

[bearbear]

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits IN PRISON who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently
1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those WHO ARE NOW DEAD

This was a special exception for those dead before and during Jesus' time. No one who lived prior to Jesus' time had a chance to hear the gospel. Contrary to what Witness Lee taught, I believe Jesus took the souls who were in Paradise / Abraham's bosom in Hades and brought them up to heaven with him (Eph 4:8-10, 2 Cor 2:14). Back then every soul was in Sheol/Hades, though there was a chasm between paradise and "that other place you didn't want to be in" (Luke 16:19-31), but after Jesus' official sacrifice, God had the right to take these souls with him to heaven (Rev 1:18). After Jesus's death, those of us who pass on from this world who belong to God go to be with the Lord in heaven (2 Cor 5:8), rather than Paradise in Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10
Therefore it says,
“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”
(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

2 Corinthians 2:14
But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere.

Jesus is no longer preaching the gospel to the dead in hell, he is in heaven and leaves this duty to men on earth via the great commission. With Jesus' death, God raised the standard and commands men everywhere to repent and receive the good news, the gospel of Jesus Christ. John the Baptist foreshadowed this urgency as he proclaimed that the kingdom of God was near, and folks needed to repent ASAP (Mark 1:15).

Acts 17:30 NLT
"God overlooked people's ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him.

Judgment comes after we die. We only have one chance to turn to God and it's in this life, hence why Jesus was so urgent concerning the gospel.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Luke 9:60
And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

I will address the other verses later, and have to leave now.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Dave

------There is a considerable number of scriptures which contradict the conclusions that you may be drawing from Ephesians. In addition, the verses you quote in Ephesians 2 contradicts 1 Corinth 15.

Are you referring to 1 Cor 15 talking about the resurrection of all the dead? This is consistent with Daniel 12:2 which also says that all the dead will be resurrected, however there will be a division:

Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Which is consistent with the Sheep/Goat division Jesus describes in Matthew 25

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

----- Furthermore, there is ample evidence that God of the NT is merciful and forgiving and will not allow any person to be lost… here is just a sample of the scriptures which portray a loving God…
Matthew 18:14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that ANY of these little ones should be lost.

Matt 18:14 is set in context of the 100 sheep the shepherd owns, so it's referring to those whom Jesus considers his sheep and whom the Father predestinated before the beginning of time and belong to God. Not everyone is Jesus' sheep and not everyone knows his voice. In fact some aren't even sheep, but goats (Matt 25:31-46)

Jesus made it clear to the Pharisees as he did in many other places that not everyone belonged to him including some of those who call him "Lord, Lord" but practice evil (Matt 7:21-23).

John 8
21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

This is not to diminish the promise in Matt 18:14. The verse promises that if God choses you and considers you his, Jesus isn't going to lose you no matter how far you stray. The debate Calvinists and others have is whether or not you can know you are truly saved and belonging to God while alive, or do you have to wait until you find yourself in heaven? Nevertheless scripture seems to steer us away from dwelling on such questions as Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12) and Peter tells us to make every effort to confirm our calling and election (2 Peter 1:10)

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Dave

Luke 3:6 And ALL mankind will see God’s salvation.
John 12:32 when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself.
John 12:47 “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the WORLD, but to SAVE IT.
John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to ALL those you have given him.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save THE WORLD through him.
Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for ALL men.
Romans 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us ALL—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?
Romans 8:38-39 nor ANYTHING else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them ALL.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 God was reconciling THE WORLD to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.
Ephesians 1:9-10 to bring ALL things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
Philippians 2:9-10 at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Colossians 1:19-20 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 who gave himself as a ransom for ALL men
1 Timothy 4:9-10 who is the Savior of ALL men

I believe these verses are set in the context of the new heavens and the new earth, the world that God considers to be the real one. Because the current world we live in is passing away and temporary (1 John 2:17), God does not consider it real, as only the things that are eternal are real to him (2 Cor 4:18).

1 John 2:17 ESV
And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

2 Cor 4:18 NIV
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Hence "All" here in this context are those whom God considers to be "All" men not in the old creation which is passing away but in this new creation in Christ which is everlasting.

In the old creation, God created the heavens and the earth first and then populated it with men. In the new creation God is doing the reverse, he is creating its inhabitants first who are spiritually born again in Christ and then creating the new home for them afterwards. If the old creation was formed in a seven day division, perhaps the new creation will have a similar seven day division for formation. It is interesting that the Jews worship during the Sabbath, the last of the seven days of the week but Christians who are under the new covenant worship on the first day of the week when Jesus rose. Perhaps this is to signify that the seven days of the new creation starts with us who are redeemed in Christ on the first day!

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Continuing on to the next point, Jesus talked about two kinds of deaths. The first one is physical and not all that important, but the second one, spiritual death is eternal and was the one he was trying to warn people about (John 8:24).

For example Lazarus "died", but Jesus conveyed that this wasn't a big deal and said that Lazarus wasn't dead but "sleeping" (John 11:11-14). Here he was referring to someone being spiritually alive but physically dead.

However Jesus does the vice versa when he refers to people who are "alive" as "dead" in verses like "Let the dead bury the dead.." (Luke 9:60). Here he is talking about people who are physically alive but spiritually dead.

Why was Jesus nonchalant about physical death yet so serious about spiritual death? Because those who die spiritually, die eternally. This is the second death mentioned in Revelation 21:8
“The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

When people die in this world, their existence ceases to be a part of this world. In the same way, those who die spiritually have no share and existence in the new creation that God has planned. Our God is God of the living, not the dead (Mark 12:27).

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Are you referring to 1 Cor 15 talking about the resurrection of all the dead?

In Corinthians 15:12-15 Paul insisted that they had not been resurrected with Christ – they were saying there was no resurrection of the dead, indicated that they had already been raised and their bodies were meaningless and they could do what they wanted e.g. lie with prostitutes etc (Paul wrote this because many had taken on gnostic beliefs after he left) but Ephesians 2:5-6 indicates that “God has raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly places". Of course, most scholars do not believe Paul wrote Ephesians (for a variety of reasons) but that it was written by one of his followers after Paul’s death. In addition, most evidence shows that it was not sent to Ephesus but circulated among all the churches since that phrase “are in Ephesus and” can be clearly seen as a correction (i.e. addition) in the margin between the columns in the first page of the Greek manuscript “Codex Sinaiticus” the oldest compete manuscript of the New Testament, if you look at it. (I am only noting this since if it is a different author that may account for the discrepancy) Be that as it may, there is a contradiction. My point is that it is not a good selection of verses to prove your point unless you can reconcile the two points of view.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

unless you can reconcile the two points of view.

Just reconcile how God's love isn't omnipotent enough to redeem even the devil, and any supposed hell, and all souls. If God is God, that is.

A loving God beats the dickens outta an angry wrathful God. I can only fear such a God. But couldn't with a clean conscience ever love Him.

Ask yourself why we seem to be more drawn to a angry wrathful God, rather than to a loving forgiving God. Maybe we are in need of a little self analysis.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

...God was angry and wrathful before the cross and angry and wrathful afterwards; like God said or thought, "I gave my son as a sacrifice for the sin of the world, to forgive them," but ... but, "oh hell, forget the cross, I'm just going back to being angry and wrathful."

And bearbear, you can throw Bible verses at it all day long, and twist your logic into a bag of pretzels, but you can't get around it.

In the end the problem is the book of Revelation. It just doesn't belong in the canon.

It causes crazies, like Lee and Cahn. And I think you, my brother, are at risk, if you keep struggling with trying to solve the impossible, even with Bible verses.

Unless you just admit:

Isa 45:6-7 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Awareness, you're talking about God like He isn't listening to you.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness, you're talking about God like He isn't listening to you.

Oh He's listening and watching. And what He's saying about the book of Revelation is: "I never wrote any of it."

And also, "That Cahn guy is crazy. I do things according to Shemitah .... LoL ... rotflmao."

Ha

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh He's listening and watching. And what He's saying about the book of Revelation is: "I never wrote any of it."

And also, "That Cahn guy is crazy. I do things according to Shemitah .... LoL ... rotflmao."

Ha

Don't you want to leave John's vision of a new heaven and new earth in your special Bible? But, take your time answering the question. Stars are expected to form normally for at least a trillion years, but eventually the supply of gas needed for star formation will be exhausted. As existing stars run out of fuel and cease to shine, the universe will slowly and inexorably grow darker, one star at a time. At that point, John's vision could come in handy.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Don't you want to leave John's vision of a new heaven and new earth in your special Bible? But, take your time answering the question. Stars are expected to form normally for at least a trillion years, but eventually the supply of gas needed for star formation will be exhausted. As existing stars run out of fuel and cease to shine, the universe will slowly and inexorably grow darker, one star at a time. At that point, John's vision could come in handy.

Maybe you've got a point:

Rev_6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Maybe you've got a point:

Rev_6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I like to ask the Holy Spirit for understanding, for revelation and for Wisdom. He likes that too. And He doesn't like to be boxed in.

So.. for whatever it's worth...... I am going to blow your mind with what HE REVEALED to me...and back it with scriptures for those who STILL believe the Bible we have is GOD's WRITTEN WORD that is REVEALED to us ONLY by HIS SPIRIT.

And for your information DOH-DOH BIRD HAROLD, GOD DID WRITE THE BOOK OF REVELATION.

That is another topic for another time. I have read it over a dozen times and next to Hebrews, it is one of my favorite books. AND btw, for those who read it, we get a BLESSING. Rev 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Gotta have ears to hear what the SPIRIT SAYS.

As to Rev 6:13, there are several key phrases:
a) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

b) as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs,

c) she is shaken of a MIGHTY WIND.

A: Soon Joseph had another dream, and again he told his brothers about it. “Listen, I have had another dream,” he said. “The sun, moon, and eleven stars bowed low before me!” GEN 37:9


B: THE FIG TREE IS ISRAEL. The untimely figs being cast down from heaven are the OT saints.

C: The MIGHTY WIND is the HOLY SPIRIT
suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing MIGHTY WIND, and HE (it) filled all the house where they were sitting. (Acts 2:2) Holy spirit is not an IT. HE IS GOD THE SPIRIT.

Hope you are following the bouncing ball.

Those stars are the old testament saints OF THE 12 TRIBES of Israel returning to the earth to put on their Glorified bodies. In fact I believe they are the 144k Jews SEALED WITH THE SEAL OF GOD spoken of in Revelation 7.

The rapture has already taken place because in vs 9 of Rev 7

we read:
After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands

So the 144k figs come down from heaven and are sealed with The SEAL of GOD on their foreheads (vs 3) between vs 4-8, the tribes are listed and following the list, the great multitude which no man could number out of EVERY NATION are stading before the Throne and the Lamb Glorifying Him. These are those that came out of the rapture..


The church is not mentioned after Rev 4. Between Rev 5-19 the LORD is focuses on Israel. Then in Rev 19 the Lord JESUS returns WITH THE BRIDAL ARMY to fight for Israel against the nations that have come against her. And now Israel will see Yahshua truly has always been Messiah they were waiting for.

It is pretty clear to me that after the rapture, the 144k OT saints from the 12 tribes of ISRAEL are sent down from heaven by the POWER MIGHTY Holy Spirit of God.

hee haw !

Carol

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh He's listening and watching. And what He's saying about the book of Revelation is: "I never wrote any of it."

Ha

Awareness---this is not good. Maybe you think you're being "cute", but you're not. Lots of people are reading your posts and you've put yourself in the position of possibly causing God's children to stumble. You don't want that millstone around your neck. (Matt. 18:6)

Matthew 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Why don't you give us a testimony of your faith? Your love for the Father, your acceptance of Jesus as your Savior, and your belief that the Bible is God's word...all of it? This will help all of us, because at this point, I don't know where you stand.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Oh He's listening and watching. And what He's saying about the book of Revelation is: "I never wrote any of it."

Of course, God did not write the book of Revelation, he told John to write, "to write what you have seen." (1.19)

awareness is just playing with you Nell. He says outlandish things just to tease the girls, and get a few laughs.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course, God did not write the book of Revelation, he told John to write, "to write what you have seen." (1.19)

awareness is just playing with you Nell. He says outlandish things just to tease the girls, and get a few laughs.

My request stands.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I like to ask the Holy Spirit for understanding, for revelation and for Wisdom. He likes that too. And He doesn't like to be boxed in.

So.. for whatever it's worth...... I am going to blow your mind with what HE REVEALED to me...and back it with scriptures for those who STILL believe the Bible we have is GOD's WRITTEN WORD that is REVEALED to us ONLY by HIS SPIRIT.

And for your information DOH-DOH BIRD HAROLD, GOD DID WRITE THE BOOK OF REVELATION.

Dearest Sister,

Of the four methods of interpreting the book of Revelation -- Futurist, Historicist, Preterist, and Idealist -- you being a self professed Rapture-centric Retard, are clearly having a absolute hoot of a time as a idealist futurist sort. while I, a Doh-Doh Bird, so claimed, clearly am a dud of the preterist sort.

And I don't know if you buy into Witness Lee's historical perspective, that the 7 churches represent the historical development of the church down thru the ages, if so you are also of a historical sort. That would mean you have three ways, against my one way.

As a note, the author of Revelation, a guy that calls himself John, was a preterist and futureist, cuz he was relating his writing to his times -- Rome & Nero -- and expecting God to intervene "soon," not, however, 2000 yrs later. So this guy John was wrong.

As tempted as I am to break your post down and respond part for part, I feel only to go into the verse I presented, Rev. 6:13.

You make a claim that, the "stars are the old testament saints OF THE 12 TRIBES of Israel."

However, when I search the whole Bible for the Greek word ἀστήρ (astēr) in every case but one it means the literal stars up in the sky at night, not old testament saints, as you claim.

And this guy John saying that stars fall to earth reveals that his book is not inspired by God. As God knows, and knew, as well as we today, that if even one star fell to earth, the earth, sun, and whole solar system, would be completely obliterated. And that would mean the end of John's make believe drama.

That means the book of Revelation is a forgery -- not from God -- using John's name, and borrowing imagery from OT prophets, to explain what was going on back in the author's day.

That's why we should look at the book of Revelation as a product of the imagination of a faker.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course, God did not write the book of Revelation, he told John to write, "to write what you have seen." (1.19)

awareness is just playing with you Nell. He says outlandish things just to tease the girls, and get a few laughs.

It is true. Both CMW and I are having a hoot of a time. For different reasons we're not worried about God's judgment.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness---this is not good. Maybe you think you're being "cute", but you're not. Lots of people are reading your posts and you've put yourself in the position of possibly causing God's children to stumble. You don't want that millstone around your neck. (Matt. 18:6)

Matthew 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Why don't you give us a testimony of your faith? Your love for the Father, your acceptance of Jesus as your Savior, and your belief that the Bible is God's word...all of it? This will help all of us, because at this point, I don't know where you stand.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Nell

Does awareness' faith need to follow what you believe his faith should be? Awareness is warning you, "don't follow Cahn". Awareness is a prophet who is steeped in scripture. Just because he is concerned about the book Revelation should not be a reflection of his lack of faith but more a reflection of his concern with those who would be distracted by the book since it may not have been written by John and should not be included in the canon and accepted blindly. Remember you may very well have your "words" supporting "Cahn" become accountable to God as well if every word we speak is being monitored by God. Maybe God is perusing these forums, if so, I wish He would make an entry just to let us know. Maybe He has, as a "Guest" (what's his IP). Or maybe you are the Voice of God?

I don't pretend to know God in the way you do. Job 11:7-9 Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find the limit of the Almighty? It is higher than heaven--what can you do? Deeper than Sheol---what can you know? Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

You make a claim that, the "stars are the old testament saints OF THE 12 TRIBES of Israel."

However, when I search the whole Bible for the Greek word ἀστήρ (astēr) in every case but one it means the literal stars up in the sky at night, not old testament saints, as you claim.

And this guy John saying that stars fall to earth reveals that his book is not inspired by God. As God knows, and knew, as well as we today, that if even one star fell to earth, the earth, sun, and whole solar system, would be completely obliterated. And that would mean the end of John's make believe drama.

A,

You are really going off the reservation here. Of all the things that might create some doubt about the authenticity of John's Apocalypse, this isn't it.

While it may be true that no one can simply say that the stars are the OT saints of any kind, you also cannot just find that a particular word never was used as a metaphor anywhere else and declare it to be literal when written into book of metaphors. Especially when the literal meaning would be, as you point out, completely destructive to the remaining drama of the writing.

I think that one of your problems when you get into things like this is a kind of tunnel vision. You seem to have a goal in mind and are busy blindering-off the possibility of anything standing in the way of that, including the obviously contradictory positions contained within your own reasoning.

It places you squarely into the "not from God at all costs retard" camp. And I don't think you are a retard. And I bet you don't either.

I will confess that if the importance of Revelation is all the strange stuff that so many "stuck in the end times" kind of people come up with, I would tend to doubt its authenticity too.

So what does blood flowing through the valley as deep as a horse's bridle mean? A virtually every person on earth gathered to the Kidron Valley and slaughtered there? Some kind of bizarre flood through the valley visually altered by nuclear blast of some sort? (I've heard one like that.) Or that there will be a lot of dead people? A really large number of dead people.

And this is probably where the Preterists get their start. With the complete destruction of Jerusalem such that you couldn't recognize the previous existence of a city, coupled with the huge number of people who died, it is easy to see how that could be the source of such thinking. And they would assert that we are simply somewhere between the start and the finish now. And that gap is of uncertain length. And if 1 day is as a thousand years (metaphorically, not literally), then how long is it all? Are we near the end? Only a little way in?

But in any case, here we are.

I am convinced that most who think they have figured out much of the meaning of Revelation are the most deluded of us all. No matter which side they are on. But at some level, I can see both signs of something to come, and evidence that a lot is going on. Death, War, Famine, and the Gospel are still advancing throughout the earth. Don't need to wait for the "end times." That has been true since the beginning of this era.

Is Revelation "over the top"? What do we do with it? Maybe the answer is to be warned. And that is enough. It does not seem that we have much part in it other than as participants with parts based on our position with God.

And there is the real issue. Where are we with God? That is the determiner of our ultimate existence. Not the claimed understanding of the details of the warning. Now if the warning was at least partly to the Jews in Jerusalem, then it was important that some get out before the destruction in 70AD. But it seems to go so much beyond that.

And you really don't need to understand all of the picture you see before you to "get the picture." And the picture is that it really matters which side of the Christ issue you are on. Are you a true follower and believer. Or are you one who thinks little or nothing about Him. Or putting the following off until later.

Will there be a later for any of us? We don't know.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

Does awareness' faith need to follow what you believe his faith should be?

No. We all need to follow what the BIBLE says regarding our faith.

Originally Posted by Dave

Awareness is warning you, "don't follow Cahn".

Thank you. I appreciate the warning from all, and I am warned. I believe this is healthy. I'm continuing to research.

Originally Posted by Dave

Awareness is a prophet who is steeped in scripture. Just because he is concerned about the book Revelation should not be a reflection of his lack of faith but more a reflection of his concern with those who would be distracted by the book since it may not have been written by John and should not be included in the canon and accepted blindly.

Awareness has gone far beyond expressing his "concern" about the book of Revelation. If you all are going to judge me by my words, can we not apply the same standard to all? I'm not questioning Awareness' faith as much as I'm asking for a clarification of what it is. I believe this is scriptural.

What you call "accept blindly" I call "accept by faith."

I will be happy to provide my profession of faith if you all would care to read it.

Originally Posted by Dave

Remember you may very well have your "words" supporting "Cahn" become accountable to God as well if every word we speak is being monitored by God.

No "maybe" to it. My words are accountable.

I've tried to present that my "support" for Cahn is not for Cahn himself but for his message...to the extent that it is biblical.

Maybe I haven't done a good job of making that point, because it keeps being coming back at me as blindly supporting Cahn. That is not the case. I apologize that I cannot present this fact in a clear way that you all would stop accusing me of something that I do not believe.

At least I've actually read Cahn. Perhaps you folks are blindly rejecting his message without having read it. Is that possible?

Originally Posted by Dave

Maybe God is perusing these forums, if so, I wish He would make an entry just to let us know. Maybe He has, as a "Guest" (what's his IP). Or maybe you are the Voice of God?

I understand that this is your mockery of me. Does God speak through His people or not? Is God speaking in the rantings of Awareness? After all that Awareness has posted against a book of the Bible, I don't believe it's out of line to request a testimony of faith.

It was a request which was made with respect.

Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

No. We all need to follow what the BIBLE says regarding our faith.

Thank you. I appreciate the warning from all, and I am warned. I believe this is healthy. I'm continuing to research.

Awareness has gone far beyond expressing his "concern" about the book of Revelation. If you all are going to judge me by my words, can we not apply the same standard to all? I'm not questioning Awareness' faith as much as I'm asking for a clarification of what it is. I believe this is scriptural.

What you call "accept blindly" I call "accept by faith."

I will be happy to provide my profession of faith if you all would care to read it.

No "maybe" to it. My words are accountable.

I've tried to present that my "support" for Cahn is not for Cahn himself but for his message...to the extent that it is biblical.

Maybe I haven't done a good job of making that point, because it keeps being coming back at me as blindly supporting Cahn. That is not the case. I apologize that I cannot present this fact in a clear way that you all would stop accusing me of something that I do not believe.

At least I've actually read Cahn. Perhaps you folks are blindly rejecting his message without having read it. Is that possible?

I understand that this is your mockery of me. Does God speak through His people or not? Is God speaking in the rantings of Awareness? After all that Awareness has posted against a book of the Bible, I don't believe it's out of line to request a testimony of faith.
It was a request which was made with respect.
Nell

Nell
I respect what you have to say and your arguments are often well made and you sound reasonable. My concern is that we start creating a litmus test regarding our posts by challenging what we each believe whether it is for awareness, myself or others. Were not we all followers of WL? We are on this forum sharing our experiences and concerns as a result of what we discovered.

I never intended to mock you but I was just making a point and you make them all the time. Of course He speaks through people but we had that problem with WL...we all thought he was God's Oracle----we followed him and where did that lead us. I guess that is my point...I believe it is good to challenge some things because we need to tread carefully lest we fall into the same trap again. Let's listen to awareness because he was a true believer of WL who tests the scriptures (I Thess 5:21 ... test everything Acts 17:11 examine scriptures every day to see if they are true) awareness is testing everyday and so are you.

[bearbear]

I feel like I just witnessed Matthew 7:6 re: what CMW shared.

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

Nevertheless thanks for sharing CMW, that was pretty awesome and your revelations are always welcome with me.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Dearest Sister,
And I don't know if you buy into Witness Lee's historical perspective, that the 7 churches represent the historical development of the church down thru the ages, if so you are also of a historical sort. That would mean you have three ways, against my one way.

The letter to the seven churches contain spiritual principles that can be applied to anyone at any time. In the same way we draw spiritual principles from Paul's epistles which were written to specific churches during the first century, there are timeless principles to be drawn from the seven letters, most which are warnings.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Dave

In Corinthians 15:12-15 Paul insisted that they had not been resurrected with Christ – they were saying there was no resurrection of the dead, indicated that they had already been raised and their bodies were meaningless and they could do what they wanted e.g. lie with prostitutes etc (Paul wrote this because many had taken on gnostic beliefs after he left) but Ephesians 2:5-6 indicates that “God has raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly places".

In Ephesians 2:1 it says "we were dead in our transgressions". Paul is speaking in spiritual terms, not physical terms as he is writing to people who are not physically dead but alive. We were spiritually dead in our sins, but then God's grace through Jesus Christ paved the way for us to be born again in the Holy Spirit.

Henceforth Ephesians 2:5-6 isn't referring to the resurrection of our bodies which will happen at the last trumpet (1 Thess 4:16), but it's talking in spiritual terms. Though that's not to say that the author isn't also pointing to our eventual receiving of our inheritance in Christ which includes reigning with him (2 Tim 2:12) and receiving new bodies (1 Cor 15:52).

Although Jesus is in heaven, spiritually speaking, we can be where Jesus is just as when Jesus said we could remain in him and he in us (John 15:5), and he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit (1 Cor 6:17).

Of course, most scholars do not believe Paul wrote Ephesians (for a variety of reasons) but that it was written by one of his followers after Paul’s death. In addition, most evidence shows that it was not sent to Ephesus but circulated among all the churches since that phrase “are in Ephesus and” can be clearly seen as a correction (i.e. addition) in the margin between the columns in the first page of the Greek manuscript “Codex Sinaiticus” the oldest compete manuscript of the New Testament, if you look at it. (I am only noting this since if it is a different author that may account for the discrepancy) Be that as it may, there is a contradiction. My point is that it is not a good selection of verses to prove your point unless you can reconcile the two points of view.

I am afraid that by you devoting yourself to this kind of research rather than the word of God which makes you wise for salvation (2 Tim 3:15, 1 Peter 2:2, Acts 20:32), you're straining a gnat but swallowing whole camels.

I could have chosen from many other passages in the New Testament which echo the theme of Ephesians 2:1-10 which simply says we were once by nature children of wrath, but God in his love and grace redeemed us and made us to be his own.

Colossians 1:21-22
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

Nell
I respect what you have to say and your arguments are often well made and you sound reasonable. My concern is that we start creating a litmus test regarding our posts by challenging what we each believe whether it is for awareness, myself or others. Were not we all followers of WL? We are on this forum sharing our experiences and concerns as a result of what we discovered.

Dave,
I understand what you're saying. However, I believe there is a baseline for Christians, of which first is the infallibility of the Bible.

We were followers of WL. Not anymore. No more "oracles". I won't accept Awareness as an "oracle" either. He gets to have an opinion, but his rantings are not authoritative and need to be challenged.

Originally Posted by Dave

I never intended to mock you but I was just making a point and you make them all the time. Of course He speaks through people but we had that problem with WL...we all thought he was God's Oracle----we followed him and where did that lead us. I guess that is my point...I believe it is good to challenge some things because we need to tread carefully lest we fall into the same trap again. Let's listen to awareness because he was a true believer of WL who tests the scriptures (I Thess 5:21 ... test everything Acts 17:11 examine scriptures every day to see if they are true) awareness is testing everyday and so are you.

When someone challenges the authority of the Bible, they leave themselves open to challenges at the most fundamental level.

Witness Lee tossed out the book of James. If I'm not mistaken, he tossed out Psalms too. No one challenged him. We know how that went. When Awareness falls into this same trap, it's time to blow the whistle. The fact is, the Bible was canonized. It's a done deal.

If I said the things Awareness has said, I would hope that someone would challenge me by asking for a testimony of my faith.

Honestly, my testimony of God's love for me and saving me eternally, as well as rescuing me from the Local Church is my greatest joy. I'm grateful and happy to sing His praises to the world. When I was really young, I sang a little song with my Bible School class. The words were: "Into my heart...into my heart...come into my heart Lord Jesus..." I had sung that song many times, but one day, He did it. He accepted MY invitation. I invited Him in, and in He came.

Pretty awesome, huh? It's my favorite story. I love it. The God of the universe responded when a little bitty kid invited Him into her heart. What a God we have!


Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In Ephesians 2:1 it says "we were dead in our transgressions". Paul is speaking in spiritual terms, not physical terms as he is writing to people who are not physically dead but alive. We were spiritually dead in our sins, but then God's grace through Jesus Christ paved the way for us to be born again in the Holy Spirit. We were once dead in the spirit but then God made us alive in the spirit.

Henceforth Ephesians 2:5-6 isn't referring to the resurrection of our bodies which will happen at the last trumpet (1 Thess 4:16), but it's talking in spiritual terms. Though that's not to say that the author isn't also pointing to our eventual receiving of our inheritance in Christ which includes reigning with him (2 Tim 2:12) and receiving new bodies (1 Cor 15:52).

Although Jesus is in heaven, spiritually speaking, we can be where Jesus is just as when Jesus said we could remain in him and he in us (John 15:5), and he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit (1 Cor 6:17).

You should read those verses again. That is exactly my point. The Corinthian's passage is saying we have "not" spiritually been raised with Christ yet (Paul was trying to address the gnostic point which indicated that we have been raised spiritually with Christ and therefore our bodies are not important). Ephesians is saying we have been raised with Christ, spiritually, as you say. There is a clear contradiction. The only thing you can say is that he is addressing two issues from different perspectives but I believe my original point was that Ephesians was written by a different person which maybe in the scheme of things doesn't mean anything if it is scripture.

Originally Posted by bearbear

I am afraid that by you devoting yourself to this kind of research rather than the word of God which gives you growth in your salvation (1 Peter 2:2, Acts 20:32), you're straining a gnat but swallowing whole camels.

I notice that you quote from different translations of the Bible EV and RSV and maybe others. I don't seem to understand why you consider them better than the oldest Codex' manuscripts. Having been trained in Greek I go back to them to double check the closest manuscripts to the originals since i do not have the confidence you do in various translations. When I read one passage from the KJV and compare it RSV or EV or NSRV I find there are discrepancies. I keep a number of versions at my finger tips to include the oldest Codex as well as a Greek interlinear NT. I Thess 5:21 "...test everything" (NSRV). Do you just accept everything as it is in one or two versions?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Dave

You should read those verses again. That is exactly my point. The Corinthian's passage is saying we have "not" spiritually been raised with Christ yet (Paul was trying to address the gnostic point which indicated that we have been raised spiritually with Christ and therefore our bodies are not important). Ephesians is saying we have been raised with Christ, spiritually, as you say. There is a clear contradiction. The only thing you can say is that he is addressing two issues from different perspectives but I believe my original point was that Ephesians was written by a different person which maybe in the scheme of things doesn't mean anything if it is scripture.

1 Cor 15:12-15:
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

Paul was addressing the view that there was no bodily resurrection of the dead, which would also imply that Jesus was never raised from the dead, he is not talking in spiritual terms in 1 Cor 15:12-15. Ephesians talks about a spiritual resurrection, but nowhere does it state that a physical, bodily resurrection has already taken place and will never happen. In Corinthians, Paul is saying that in fact there is a physical, bodily resurrection. I don't see how it's a contradiction as no where does he state that a spiritual resurrection happening excludes the bodily resurrection from happening.

Furthermore, we're assuming that there is such a thing as "time" in the spiritual world. It's possible that the spiritual world is timeless and things don't necessarily happen in order but in ways that is hard for our physical minds to comprehend. For example scripture says that our true home is in heaven (Phil 3:20) and God knew us even before he formed us in our mother's womb (Jer 1:5) and that the lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

I notice that you quote from different translations of the Bible EV and RSV and maybe others. I don't seem to understand why you consider them better than the oldest Codex' manuscripts. Having been trained in Greek I go back to them to double check the closest manuscripts to the originals since i do not have the confidence you do in various translations. When I read one passage from the KJV and compare it RSV or EV or NSRV I find there are discrepancies. I keep a number of versions at my finger tips to include the oldest Codex as well as a Greek interlinear NT. I Thess 5:21 "...test everything" (NSRV). Do you just accept everything as it is in one or two versions?

I keep a Greek-English ESV interlinear with me as well and have concordances handy. I quote verses from english translations to make our conversation easier. If you'd like to go into the Greek, I am fine with that as well.

The heart of what I was saying was not to discourage scholarly studies of God's word, but that if you are using your scholarly gift to undermine the validity of scriptures, that is much less profitable than directing your talents towards uncovering the mountain of spiritual riches contained in God's word.

It's like spending hours to find scraps of food in a garbage bin, when there's a free buffet two feet away.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

It was a request which was made with respect.

Nell

And it deserves a respectful answer. Which I plan on presenting when I get the time.

Thanks Nell.

And OBiWan deserves a response too.

Thanks to him as well.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The heart of what I was saying was not to discourage scholarly studies of God's word, but that if you are using your scholarly gift to undermine the validity of scriptures, that is much less profitable than directing your talents towards uncovering the mountain of spiritual riches contained in God's word.

It's like spending hours to find scraps of food in a garbage bin, when there's a free buffet two feet away.

Here is my point. Didn't we spend years under WL believing that we were "uncovering the mountain of spiritual riches contained in God's word"? The other day I was looking at 3 notebooks full of detailed notes I took while I was at the Hebrew conference in Anaheim with WL. I, along with others, were caught up in it. Oh, the mountain of spiritual riches we thought we were experiencing at that time. Your free buffet can be deceptive and a trap, as I quoted 1 Thess "...test everything." In addition, we are all at different levels. When I first was a Christian in 1964 and went to Bible college I saw the Bible, books of the Bible, verses in a certain way. As I studied over the years my understanding changed. We all became stuck in the mud with WL teachings...unable to change and saturated with his interpretations. If we limit our growth to one interpretation we fall back into the WL syndrome.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Dave

You should read those verses again. That is exactly my point. The Corinthian's passage is saying we have "not" spiritually been raised with Christ yet (Paul was trying to address the gnostic point which indicated that we have been raised spiritually with Christ and therefore our bodies are not important). Ephesians is saying we have been raised with Christ, spiritually, as you say. There is a clear contradiction. The only thing you can say is that he is addressing two issues from different perspectives but I believe my original point was that Ephesians was written by a different person which maybe in the scheme of things doesn't mean anything if it is scripture.

The Corinthians passage is talking about the resurrection of the body. It is essentially the topic of the entire chapter. Paul begins by talking about the fact of the resurrection of Christ. Then he turns to the error that some had taken on that there would be no resurrection of the dead for man. And coupled with that, a discussion of the nature of the body in resurrection. It all ends with a declaration that at the time of the resurrection, the age is changing and the old, corrupted body of flesh that we had does not qualify for entry. Therefore the need for a resurrection with a different kind of body.

But Ephesians 2 is simply not talking about the same thing. You are equating "made alive together with Christ" with something about resurrection. That is not the common understanding of salvation/regeneration. It is not a matter of resurrection. Where is there anything about being raised (as if in resurrection)? Are you relying on one of many definitions of a word? A definition that is not the one accepted by most translators? And if so, why are we to reject the majority opinion and take yours? In the past I did that for Lee and I just don't go there anymore — at least not without good cause.

And it would appear that you are busy responding to bear-bear about this. And it seems that bear-bear is also treating Ephesians as if talking about some kind of resurrection.

But I see no basis for treating Ephesians 2 as talking about the resurrection of the body of any man, but instead about the salvation of man.

Not the same thing.

And therefore nothing that would lead anyone to conclude that two entirely different people with different views on resurrection wrote these two books.

Am I missing something here?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And this guy John saying that stars fall to earth reveals that his book is not inspired by God. As God knows, and knew, as well as we today, that if even one star fell to earth, the earth, sun, and whole solar system, would be completely obliterated. And that would mean the end of John's make believe drama.

That means the book of Revelation is a forgery -- not from God -- using John's name, and borrowing imagery from OT prophets, to explain what was going on back in the author's day.

That's BS.

Stars falling can be "falling stars," and we all know they can be meteors or asteroids and not real "stars."

As they say on ESPN, "c'mon man!"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

When I was really young, I sang a little song with my Bible School class. The words were: "Into my heart...into my heart...come into my heart Lord Jesus..." I had sung that song many times, but one day, He did it. He accepted MY invitation. I invited Him in, and in He came.

Pretty awesome, huh? It's my favorite story. I love it. The God of the universe responded when a little bitty kid invited Him into her heart. What a God we have!

Thanks, Nell.

I think our first experience of God may always be our best.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

The Corinthians passage is talking about the resurrection of the body. It is essentially the topic of the entire chapter. Paul begins by talking about the fact of the resurrection of Christ. Then he turns to the error that some had taken on that there would be no resurrection of the dead for man. And coupled with that, a discussion of the nature of the body in resurrection. It all ends with a declaration that at the time of the resurrection, the age is changing and the old, corrupted body of flesh that we had does not qualify for entry. Therefore the need for a resurrection with a different kind of body.

But Ephesians 2 is simply not talking about the same thing. You are equating "made alive together with Christ" with something about resurrection. That is not the common understanding of salvation/regeneration. It is not a matter of resurrection. Where is there anything about being raised (as if in resurrection)? Are you relying on one of many definitions of a word? A definition that is not the one accepted by most translators? And if so, why are we to reject the majority opinion and take yours? In the past I did that for Lee and I just don't go there anymore — at least not without good cause.

And it would appear that you are busy responding to bear-bear about this. And it seems that bear-bear is also treating Ephesians as if talking about some kind of resurrection.

But I see no basis for treating Ephesians 2 as talking about the resurrection of the body of any man, but instead about the salvation of man.

Not the same thing.

And therefore nothing that would lead anyone to conclude that two entirely different people with different views on resurrection wrote these two books.

Am I missing something here?

A lot of this was lost in translation. In other words, I would have to go back and retrace our posts to figure out how we arrived at this point. On the other hand, I believe bearbear used the first 12 verses of Ephesians 2 to make his point. My perspective is that Ephesians was not written by Paul which is commonly understood by many scholars. While other deuteron-pauline epistles may be in question there is virtually no doubt about Ephesians for many reasons and there is a question as to whether it was written to the Ephesians as I have previously noted. In Ephesians this author says he had previously lived an immoral life as a pagan, "in the passions of the flesh, following its desires and senses" Eph. 2:3 whereas in Philippians he writes, "According to the righteousness found in the law, I was blameless" (Phil. 3:6) I noted that Ephesians may well have not been written to the Ephesians. Other than the Codex which I noted previously I would add that if you look at the footnote "a" in the NSRV regarding Ephesians 1:1 it states "Other ancient authorities lack in Ephesus, reading saints who are also faithful" This is not "Dave's" theory but Christian scholars around the globe support this view. They also do not agree that the verses quoted in Ephesians 2 are consistent with Paul's 1 Corinthians 15. I am sure there are scholars who would agree with your view, however, In any case, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

Dave,
I understand what you're saying. However, I believe there is a baseline for Christians, of which first is the infallibility of the Bible.
Nell

Which Bible? You know that the original manuscripts were written in Greek? The KJV is not the original Bible. Neither are the following versions: NSRV; NET; RSV; EV; etc. Are each one of them infallible? Some of them leave out verses from the KJV because they discovered that they were not in older manuscripts e.g. 1 John 5:7-8. These verses are well known to have been inserted by scribes. So, which Bible is infallible? We don't have any original manuscripts so what we have are Bibles which have been translated from copies of copies of copies etc. I don't disagree with you I just want to know which Bible is infallible from your perspective.

Originally Posted by Nell

We were followers of WL. Not anymore. No more "oracles". I won't accept Awareness as an "oracle" either. He gets to have an opinion, but his rantings are not authoritative and need to be challenged.
Nell

Can't we just call awareness a "disturbed oracle"? In that way he keeps his "Oracle robe" which I understand he wears quite frequently.

BTW Nell, thanks for responding and I do appreciate your perspective!

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Dave

Here is my point. Didn't we spend years under WL believing that we were "uncovering the mountain of spiritual riches contained in God's word"? The other day I was looking at 3 notebooks full of detailed notes I took while I was at the Hebrew conference in Anaheim with WL. I, along with others, were caught up in it. Oh, the mountain of spiritual riches we thought we were experiencing at that time. Your free buffet can be deceptive and a trap, as I quoted 1 Thess "...test everything." In addition, we are all at different levels. When I first was a Christian in 1964 and went to Bible college I saw the Bible, books of the Bible, verses in a certain way. As I studied over the years my understanding changed. We all became stuck in the mud with WL teachings...unable to change and saturated with his interpretations. If we limit our growth to one interpretation we fall back into the WL syndrome.

The mountain of spiritual riches wasn't the problem, rather it was an environment that necessitated the need for an oracle and another mediator besides Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

We have the word of God and we have the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things (John 16:13).

I simply come to the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to teach me. Then I ask God to strengthen me so I can do what his word says. As I struggle to obey, I develop relationship with Jesus and come to know him through my meagre effort to live my faith. I simply pray, trust and obey and through this I come to know and experience the tangible love of Jesus as he comes through for me in ways I never would have imagined. As I experience his love for me, I can't help but to love him back, but it all started with faith. We love him because he first loved first.

No LSM conferences, trainings, theological degrees or esoteric knowledge is required. It's within the grasp of anyone, even simple fishermen.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The mountain of spiritual riches wasn't the problem, rather it was an environment that necessitated the need for an oracle and another mediator besides Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

We have the word of God and we have the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things (John 16:13).

I simply come to the scriptures and ask the Holy Spirit to teach me. Then I ask God to strengthen me so I can do what his word says. As I struggle to obey, I develop relationship with Jesus and come to know him through my meagre effort to live my faith. I simply pray, trust and obey and through this I come to know and experience the tangible love of Jesus as he comes through for me in ways I never would have imagined. As I experience his love for me, I can't help but to love him back, but it all started with faith. We love him because he first loved first.

No LSM conferences, trainings, theological degrees or esoteric knowledge is required. It's within the grasp of anyone, even simple fishermen.

God Bless you!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

Which Bible?

Trick question? THE Bible. There's only one Bible.

Originally Posted by Dave

You know that the original manuscripts were written in Greek? The KJV is not the original Bible. Neither are the following versions: NSRV; NET; RSV; EV; etc. Are each one of them infallible? Some of them leave out verses from the KJV because they discovered that they were not in older manuscripts e.g. 1 John 5:7-8. These verses are well known to have been inserted by scribes. So, which Bible is infallible? We don't have any original manuscripts so what we have are Bibles which have been translated from copies of copies of copies etc. I don't disagree with you I just want to know which Bible is infallible from your perspective.

Yeah...I heard about the original language and translations too, but thanks for the update. Regardless, there's only one Bible.

Originally Posted by Dave

Can't we just call awareness a "disturbed oracle"? In that way he keeps his "Oracle robe" which I understand he wears quite frequently.

BTW Nell, thanks for responding and I do appreciate your perspective!

WL was a disturbed oracle, so I guess we can include Awareness in that club. I'm having trouble with "Awareness the prophet" though.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness---this is not good. Maybe you think you're being "cute", but you're not. Lots of people are reading your posts and you've put yourself in the position of possibly causing God's children to stumble. You don't want that millstone around your neck. (Matt. 18:6)

Thanks for the warning about the millstone. It certainly doesn't sound pleasant.

Originally Posted by Nell

Why don't you give us a testimony of your faith? Your love for the Father, your acceptance of Jesus as your Savior, and your belief that the Bible is God's word...all of it? This will help all of us, because at this point, I don't know where you stand.

First of all I'm not the first to question the authenticity of Revelation. It goes back to the early days of Christianity. Just google "church fathers objection to revelation," and you'll learn a lot.

I'm also not the first to claim that it's a forgery. Dionysius the Bishop of Alexandria (c. 260 AD) claimed it to be a forgery. And Eusebius recorded others earlier had rejected Revelation, and some even claimed to know the guy who forged the book. A heretic by the name of Cerinthus.

And the faith of those that rejected Rev. wasn't ever questioned. So accepting or rejecting the book of Rev. is not an essential matter of the Christian faith. Either way does not determine the status of a Christian.

And to round out my response: My faith is in God, I'm in need of the salvation of Jesus, and the Bible is a very human book to me.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

However, I believe there is a baseline for Christians, of which first is the infallibility of the Bible.

Not so. Need I remind you that the early Christians had no New Testament. The first to them was the moving of the Holy Spirit ... at least according to the NT records that eventually came along.

Originally Posted by Nell

I won't accept Awareness as an "oracle" either.

I didn't know I was even in the running. But thanks for the compliment. Do I still get to keep the robe, and funny hat?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Dave

In Ephesians this author says he had previously lived an immoral life as a pagan, "in the passions of the flesh, following its desires and senses" Eph. 2:3 whereas in Philippians he writes, "According to the righteousness found in the law, I was blameless" (Phil. 3:6)

But Ephesians 2:3 does not say that. It speaks collectively of "all of us" and the cravings of "our" flesh. He sees himself within the truth of the fallen condition, but is not declaring that every aspect of what he mentions is personally his. He is not declaring himself to be a pagan. That is simply a stretch beyond what is there.

And despite the statement about being blameless, Romans paints a picture in which the war between the law in the mind and the sin the flesh, ending with "oh, retched man that I am" insists that Paul was not simply without sin. And that would seem to be the way that you are using "blameless." Yet even the OT had a process that removed the sin. It did not provide the same assurance of eternity, but it was the way that any good Jew followed the law. None is without blame. But within the context of the effort to righteousness and the faithful following of the ritual of the law, the guilt of the sin could be lifted resulting in a lack of blame on an ongoing basis. I'm sure that there are theological constructs that I have violated in saying that, but at the layman's level, this appears to be the truth and parsing through things to complicate it seems self-serving to the theologian who needs to always have a more complicated answer.

This argument seems to insist that everything must be exactly the same in all cases. If the writer is the same person (Paul, for example), then he must always talk about the whole of his experience in every case and therefore there is no way to say something different in different cases. Lee's "always say the same thing" starts to take on such a literal meaning.

And it insists that Paul could not speak in one place of his status before the law due to his long-time faithfulness to its principles and precepts and in another dig into the underlying war going on within him. A war that it would appear that he tended to win in his later life, but would not have had to win at all times in the past to make the claim that he did about being blameless. It seems to be creating a dichotomy that is not really there.

It is a little like asserting that we have been saved from our sins, yet recognizing that we continually need to be saved from our sins. We have (at least in some theological understanding) security in our salvation, yet recognize that we have ongoing sin from which we have to be cleansed. Is that a contradiction, therefore we cannot be ones who have been saved?

Your position makes life one-dimensional and unchanging. And if that is the case, then to come here and take a theological position against the one that you (like many of the rest of us) bought into for some years would be impossible because we are simply what we are and are without any ability to change. I know that it will be pointed out that our change is because of Christ. But we have also changed after that and for other reasons. Such as to take on the ways of Nee and Lee, and then to toss them aside. To be blinded to their errors, then later see through them (or at least some of them).

On one hand, there is none righteous. Yet man is very capable of being righteous — at least as he counts righteousness for himself.

Originally Posted by Dave

I noted that Ephesians may well have not been written to the Ephesians.

That is kind of old news. It seems that the early manuscripts did not reference a recipient. Yet it would appear that the common understanding at the time was that it was sent to Ephesus, or at least to the churches in the region surrounding it. Besides, to call it "to the Ephesians," while not part of the original text, does not change the message contained in it.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

But Ephesians 2:3 does not say that. It speaks collectively of "all of us" and the cravings of "our" flesh. He sees himself within the truth of the fallen condition, but is not declaring that every aspect of what he mentions is personally his. He is not declaring himself to be a pagan. That is simply a stretch beyond what is there.

On Paul’s third journey beginning with Galatia he arrives in Ephesus and stays for 3 years. Acts 20:31 “…for three years I did not cease night or day to warn everyone with tears”. During his stay in Ephesus he wrote 1 Corinthians 1 Corinthians 16:8,19 without Timothy Acts 19:22. Following his journeys ending in Rome Acts 28:14,30 which is approximately 7-9 years later when he would have written Ephesians as a prisinor in chains 3:1, 4:1, 6:20 writing to the Gentiles in Ephesus 3:1, 3:6 with a soldier guarding him Acts 28:16.

Paul also wrote Philippians from prison Phil. 1:7, in Rome 4:23 with Timothy 1:1. He wrote Colossians from prison Col 4:18 in Rome with Timothy 1:1 and he wrote Philemon in prison with Timothy Philemon 1:1.

Notice that Ephesians is the only book from prison during that time when Timothy is not with him or at least not mentioned. It is ironic since Timothy was in charge of Ephesus 1 Tim 1:3. Aside from that, the way it is written is different than his other epistles with many more longer sentences in the Greek which doesn’t really show up in English.

The question is: does it matter that Paul wrote it or that he wrote it to the Ephesians. Certainly it was someone who was a follower of Paul. If you read the entire context of Ephesians 2 it is a different perspective than 1 Corinthians 15 which is what this is all about and, therefore, Ephesians 2 was taken out of context as I noted in my original disagreement most probably because it was written by someone else.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

I didn't know I was even in the running. But thanks for the compliment. Do I still get to keep the robe, and funny hat?

Sure. It's almost Halloween.

Nell

[awareness]

Ohio just said something that reminded me that I had to come back to this. That OBW has said some wrong things in response to me, that have to be corrected.

Originally Posted by OBW

You are really going off the reservation here. Of all the things that might create some doubt about the authenticity of John's Apocalypse, this isn't it.

Oh I agree that it's not checkmate evidence. But it is evidence that John's idea that the stars could fall to earth was taken not from God but from what was commonly thought back then. They didn't have telescopes. Ya can't blame 'em ... or John ... for believing what today is known to be a ridiculous notion. And we known for certain that the creator of the whole universe would know how ridiculous that idea was ... and wouldn't have written such a thing.

That conundrum, or cognitive dissonance of Bible inerrantists, has been solved, by saying John was speaking symbolically. That's why Carol could say: "THE FIG TREE IS ISRAEL. The untimely figs [stars] being cast down from heaven are the OT saints."

Originally Posted by OBW

While it may be true that no one can simply say that the stars are the OT saints of any kind, you also cannot just find that a particular word never was used as a metaphor anywhere else and declare it to be literal when written into book of metaphors. Especially when the literal meaning would be, as you point out, completely destructive to the remaining drama of the writing.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by OBW

It places you squarely into the "not from God at all costs retard" camp. And I don't think you are a retard. And I bet you don't either.

Well I don't belong to their camp. Not since Witness Lee. But I am a retard. I'm human. Not divine.

Originally Posted by OBW

I will confess that if the importance of Revelation is all the strange stuff that so many "stuck in the end times" kind of people come up with, I would tend to doubt its authenticity too.

Now you see why I say that Rev. would be okay for 1st century Christian sort of reading, but doesn't belong in the canon. More often than not the fruit of the book is craziness.

Originally Posted by OBW

And this is probably where the Preterists get their start. With the complete destruction of Jerusalem such that you couldn't recognize the previous existence of a city, coupled with the huge number of people who died, it is easy to see how that could be the source of such thinking. And they would assert that we are simply somewhere between the start and the finish now. And that gap is of uncertain length. And if 1 day is as a thousand years (metaphorically, not literally), then how long is it all? Are we near the end? Only a little way in?

The *time thing* is a hard question. But when John opens the book with "things which must shortly come to pass," I don't think he meant 2000 yrs, or more, was shortly.

Originally Posted by OBW

I am convinced that most who think they have figured out much of the meaning of Revelation are the most deluded of us all.

Again, the book makes for crazy ... and doesn't belong in our Bible.

Originally Posted by OBW

Is Revelation "over the top"? What do we do with it? Maybe the answer is to be warned. And that is enough.

So just consider my ranting about Rev. as a warning.

Originally Posted by OBW

And there is the real issue. Where are we with God? That is the determiner of our ultimate existence.
. . . And you really don't need to understand all of the picture you see before you to "get the picture." And the picture is that it really matters which side of the Christ issue you are on. Are you a true follower and believer. Or are you one who thinks little or nothing about Him. Or putting the following off until later.

Yes. Not whether or not we accept Rev.

[OBW]

awareness,

I think that you still get a little nutsy on some of these issues, but overall we agree on the jest of it, even if not on all the details.

For one, I don't think you have to insist on tossing Revelation to realize that there is a lot in there that you don't understand yet do recognize your need for action in this life.

And for me it always comes back to this life. Those who are too interested in the afterlife often ignore this life. And it makes for pretty pathetic versions of "salt and light." Somehow people that just go around railing on sinners and pining to see the new Left Behind movies don't have anything like the impact on the world that they think they do.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

awareness,

I think that you still get a little nutsy on some of these issues, but overall we agree on the jest of it, even if not on all the details.

For one, I don't think you have to insist on tossing Revelation to realize that there is a lot in there that you don't understand yet do recognize your need for action in this life.

And for me it always comes back to this life. Those who are too interested in the afterlife often ignore this life. And it makes for pretty pathetic versions of "salt and light." Somehow people that just go around railing on sinners and pining to see the new Left Behind movies don't have anything like the impact on the world that they think they do.

Thanks Mike for tolerating my nuttiness.

Pretty much since diapers I've had much to do with the book of Rev. From my Southern Baptist days, to my own reading, to many sermons on it, including in the LC, and afterwards. For a long time I was spellbound by the book. And during that time I was into prophecy, Hal (Harold) Lindsey style. That's when I was nutty as far as I'm concerned now.

Of course all prophecies have failed, including those of the esteemed Lindsey. But it was seeing Christians that were/are into the Left Behind series that soured me on prophecy and the book of Rev. even more. I saw how crazy it made them, and their attitudes towards those that didn't believe, that God's wrath was coming to get them (not loving them as Jesus taught in the gospels). The Christians I knew went loony for those novels, like they were/are real ... ending up not loving their neighbors but harboring the wish of wrath upon them ... that's so not the Jesus of the gospels ... actually antithetical to Jesus of the gospels.

So I read up on the book some time ago, and found out about the early disagreement with it, questions of authorship, and even accusations of forgery, and the like.

As a result I no longer think of the book as I once did.

And ... I no longer trust in modern day prophets, such as Jonathan Cahn. I think their whole basis is off base.

And that 'bout sums it up.

I realize, like Nell pointed out, that some may be stumbled by my claims about the book. But as I see it, billions over the centuries have been stumbled away from the love spoken of by both Jesus and Paul, into craziness by the book.

[awareness]

"This Saturday will be the third of four total eclipses in the 18-month long tetrad series. Previous eclipses occurred on April 15, 2014 and. Oct. 8, 2014. After Saturday, the next one is expected on Sept. 28, 2015. Such a closely-spaced succession of eclipses is a fairly rare occurrence.

Some Christians believe the blood moon lunar eclipse tetrad could be connected to Jesus’ return — or signify a world-changing event about to take place.
According to the King James Bible, “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord comes,” (Joel 2:31)."
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...aster-weekend/

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

"This Saturday will be the third of four total eclipses in the 18-month long tetrad series. Previous eclipses occurred on April 15, 2014 and. Oct. 8, 2014. After Saturday, the next one is expected on Sept. 28, 2015. Such a closely-spaced succession of eclipses is a fairly rare occurrence.

Some Christians believe the blood moon lunar eclipse tetrad could be connected to Jesus’ return — or signify a world-changing event about to take place.
According to the King James Bible, “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord comes,” (Joel 2:31)."
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/201...aster-weekend/

So what do you think, Awareness?

Nell

[Nell]

This is a long message from Jonathan Cahn given, as best as I can tell, July 28, 2015. He gives an update of what has happened since Sept. 25, 2014. It's worth a listen.

http://elshaddaiministries.us/specia...final_hour.php
Scroll down to the link "The Mystery of What Lies Ahead".

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

(Amo 3:7) Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

This is a long message from Jonathan Cahn given, as best as I can tell, July 28, 2015. He gives an update of what has happened since Sept. 25, 2014. It's worth a listen.

http://elshaddaiministries.us/specia...final_hour.php
Scroll down to the link "The Mystery of What Lies Ahead".

1 Thessalonians 5:19-22
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

(Amo 3:7) Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

Nell

Thanks for the update Nell. I'm waiting for Oct. 1 ....

Then we can talk, if able.

[Nell]

Interesting news dated March 9, 2015

The Temple Institute in Jerusalem has announced that it has finished building an altar suitable for the Temple service. The altar, which took several years to build, can be operational at little more than a moment’s notice, reported Matzav Haruach magazine. ...

What makes the altar so unique is that it can be disassembled and reassembled easily, allowing it to be transported quickly and efficiently from its current location, on display at the institute, to the Temple Mount when the time comes...

http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/32...vSVpJZ3hRFL.97

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

The altar, which took several years to build,

Several years to build? I've been told by prophecy nuts that the whole temple can be rebuilt in a week.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Several years to build? I've been told by prophecy nuts that the whole temple can be rebuilt in a week.

If someone pays attention to scriptural prophecy, then he must be nuts.

If someone is skeptical of Jesus and the Bible, the guy must be brilliant.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If someone pays attention to scriptural prophecy, then he must be nuts.

If someone is skeptical of Jesus and the Bible, the guy must be brilliant.

Those are big jumps to conclusions.

I was thinking of Carol, aka Countmeworthy, who proudly calls herself a rapture retard ... and her and her prophecy friends have all kinds of like names for themselves. They have a sense of humor.

I wonder how's she doing???

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

The altar, which took several years to build, can . . . be disassembled and reassembled easily, allowing it to be transported quickly and efficiently from its current location, on display at the institute, to the Temple Mount when the time comes

The report is probably true, but it seems odd that it would take years to build, but only a very short time to disassemble and reassemble. Something seems contradictory (note, I say "seems").

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

The report is probably true, but it seems odd that it would take years to build, but only a very short time to disassemble and reassemble. Something seems contradictory (note, I say "seems").

Possible explanation, according to the link:

According to the Bible, the altar may not be made out of stones hewn by metal implements. The altar prepared by the Temple Institute, under the direction of architect Rabbi Shmuel Balsam, follows this requirement.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Possible explanation, according to the link:

According to the Bible, the altar may not be made out of stones hewn by metal implements. The altar prepared by the Temple Institute, under the direction of architect Rabbi Shmuel Balsam, follows this requirement.

Nell

Oh great, the temple if rebuilt will take us back to prior the iron and bronze age, and back to the days when primitive people believed that God, or the gods, were propitiated by the sacrifice of animals.

Obviously no modern educated person will believe such things unless they are very superstitious.

Like the Santeria. In the 1980s the city of Hialeah, Florida outlawed the Santeria from sacrificing animals in their religious rituals. Legal action was taken against the city of Hialeah that went up to the supreme court.

Who came to Santeria's support? The Jews. Why? Because when the temple is rebuilt they too will go back to sacrificing animals.

Christians have no problem at all considering the Santeria religion as pagan and superstitious. But not claim the same against the Jews. Why the double standard?

Didn't Jesus put an end to animal sacrifice once and for all?

Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice

[awareness]

Blood moon has some expecting end of the world:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/01/living...eat/index.html

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Blood moon has some expecting end of the world:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/01/living...eat/index.html

A little surprising to see CNN warning its readers about Biblical prophecy pointing to the coming of the Lord.

At our Lord's first coming, it was only those actively seeking His arrival who recognized the signs of the time and paid attention to the scriptures announcing His return.

Just because many false prophets have wrongly predicted dates of His coming in the past, is no reason that we should not believe the Scripture and prepare for Him.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A little surprising to see CNN warning its readers about Biblical prophecy pointing to the coming of the Lord.

At our Lord's first coming, it was only those actively seeking His arrival who recognized the signs of the time and paid attention to the scriptures announcing His return.

Just because many false prophets have wrongly predicted dates of His coming in the past, is no reason that we should not believe the Scripture and prepare for Him.

Then there's lots to do to prepare. We've got about a month to rebuild the temple.

This may be a sign:

Christian Child Fulfills Prophecy of Isaiah 56:7 on Temple Mount and You’ll Never Guess How
Read more at http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/48...35xI7RUJRhw.99

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Then there's lots to do to prepare. We've got about a month to rebuild the temple.

This may be a sign:

Christian Child Fulfills Prophecy of Isaiah 56:7 on Temple Mount and You’ll Never Guess How
Read more at http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/48...35xI7RUJRhw.99

If the temple does get built in your lifetime, will you then begin to believe the scriptures?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If the temple does get built in your lifetime, will you then begin to believe the scriptures?

If believing in scriptures is necessary to get raptured I certainly hope so. Cuz right after the temple is rebuilt the trumpet will sound, and Jesus will be showing in the clouds, so I've been told ... but not by scripture. Believing Jesus needs the temple to be rebuilt in order to return is extra-Biblical, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe Nell, or Countmeworthy, or even Thankful Jane, can straighten me out, if so.

[Nell]

People tend to use the terms "end of the world" and "second coming" synonymously, when they are not the same thing. The rebuilding of the temple is a prophecy related to the second coming only. A "great shaking" from God could shake things up pretty bad without the second coming or the end of the world, and we would all be here to experience it. So, I wouldn't take great comfort that the temple hasn't been rebuilt, yet.

The altar has been rebuilt as noted on this thread previously. Is it possible that the temple also has been prefabricated and is ready for assembly? I've heard that story for years.

I also heard Benson Phillips say, a VERY long time ago, because of all that fighting around Jerusalem, a stray missle could "accidently" take out the temple mount and the sight could be cleared and the temple rebuilt pretty quick...if it's already fabricated.

Is that enough speculation for you? I can go on...

In the past there were several times when some folks sold all their stuff, went to the mountains to wait for the end of the world on a certain day. We know how that turned out. Now, we have scripture being fulfilled in ways unprecedented, especially related to the pattern of historic events on the Hebrew Calendar and the coming signs in the heavens.

Also, now, in the heart of Christians everywhere, there seems to be a belief that "something is about to happen". That "something" we just don't have words for, other than phrases like "the end of the world" or the "second coming" or "a great shaking" or "judgment on America".

So what now? What do we do? Communicate with Jesus. If there is anything to be done, He will tell you. We could use terms like "get right with God"...which is a good place to start. "Repent" is another one. "Get saved" is another.

So, awareness, historically, you're all over the place. I don't know what's going to happen, if anything, but I do know we should watch and pray. Then, "Look up! For our redemption draws near."

All the prophecies have been with us for a very long time, but one day, they will be fulfilled.

Nell

[Nell]

To set himself up in God's temple, God's temple must be rebuilt.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (NIV)
[3] Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. [4] He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Daniel 9:27 (NIV)
[27] He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him".

Revelation 11:1-2 (NIV)
1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

To set himself up in God's temple, God's temple must be rebuilt.

Daniel 9:27 (NIV)
[27] He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him".

It has always been my understanding that the temple will exist during the last week of 7 years acc. to Daniel's prophecy. For those who discard Daniel indiscriminately, we should note that history tells us that he exactly predicted the year Christ would die.

9.23 At the beginning of your supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to show you; for you are greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined on your people and on your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

Without a "covenant" or peace treaty with an extremely powerful ruler only named "he," Israel probably could not rebuild their temple. Without this temple there can be no sacrifices in Israel. Without this temple, and without established sacrifices, "he" could not terminate the sacrifice in the middle of the week of 7 years.

Daniel says the "covenant" will be made with "many." This leader then will be a strong ally of Israel for at least 3 1/2 years. Many will consider him to be their promised "Messiah."

Since we are at least 7 years away from the promised 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, I tend to believe that the current world events, including the signs in heaven of the 4 blood moons, are to prepare us for earth's last week of years.

On a related topic, there are some who think that the current age of grace only exists from the end of Daniel's 69th week until the start of the 70th week, in other words from Jesus' death until the temple is rebuilt.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Without a "covenant" or peace treaty with an extremely powerful ruler only named "he," Israel probably could not rebuild their temple. Without this temple there can be no sacrifices in Israel. Without this temple, and without established sacrifices, "he" could not terminate the sacrifice in the middle of the week of 7 years.

That's what I've always heard too. What realistic scenario would have to play out, in light of current events, for the rebuilding of the temple to commence? IMHO the only possibility would be war involving Israel. If the Iran nuclear deal is signed, this will provoke Israel which could result in war involving most of the middle eastern countries. If the UN recognizes a Palestinian state, this will provoke Israel which could result in war. It's likely that Obama will support such an action. If one or all of these things happen, Israel is running out of options to prolong its existance by any other means.

Leviticus 25:10King James Version (KJV)
10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

We've not discussed the year of the Jubilee which occurs every 50 years on the Hebrew calendar. Again, this is prophetic, and not for observance by any nation but Israel. Jonathan Cahn believes that it's possible that Sept 14,2015 will begin the next Jubilee year. There's no hard and fast evidence that this is the case. The case FOR it is this:

In 1917-1918, World War I, the Balfour Declaration allowed Jews to come home to Jerusalem from the 4 corners of the world. To the Jewish people this was certainly a Jubilee.

Fifty years later (Hebrew calendar) 1966-67, saw the "6-Day" war in Israel, allowing Israel to recapture Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. However, under UN pressure, Israel gave the Temple Mount back to the Arabs. Again, certainly a Jubilee.

Now, another 50 years from 1966-67 we have 2015-16. This 50 years begins on Sept. 14, 2015. If there was war in Israel, is it likely they would proceed to begin rebuilding the Temple on the Temple Mount? Under what scenario would Israel, if they had control of the Temple Mount, NOT begin rebuilding the temple?

It seems to me that in the entire world, something big is about to happen. It looks like it would a miracle for some global catastrophe NOT to happen.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

So, awareness, historically, you're all over the place. I don't know what's going to happen, if anything, but I do know we should watch and pray. Then, "Look up! For our redemption draws near."

All the prophecies have been with us for a very long time, but one day, they will be fulfilled.

Thanks for the compliment sis.

I was on the couch, in my underwear, when I heard a car pull up in my driveway. I looked out and saw them. It was the JW that comes to my door. I figured, correctly as it turned out, that he was bringing the big guns.

When I heard them on my porch, and before they knocked, I busted out the door electrified and animated. I proclaimed, "Why would anyone join the JWs? They come out of the false prophet William Miller in the 1800s, and instead of stoning Miller your founder Charles Russel picks up where Miller left off and starts predicting prophecies all over again. And since then the JWs have had failed prophecies time and time again, being wrong probably a thousand times, at least.

They went back on their heels at my ecstatic display and pronouncement. I continued on theatrically, "How could anyone belong to a group that's been nothing but wrong so many times?" They were stunned, and their jaws were dropped, to see and hear such a spectacle.

Then the one that's been coming humbly responded, "How many times did it take Edison to invent the light bulb?" I said, "Edison didn't invent the light bulb, but it took him a thousand tries to invent the bulb that could be marketed. So are you saying that if you keep saying, "Jesus is coming back tomorrow sooner or later you'll be right?""

So they agree with you sis Nell: "All the prophecies have been with us for a very long time, but one day, they will be fulfilled."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for the compliment sis.
So they agree with you sis Nell: "All the prophecies have been with us for a very long time, but one day, they will be fulfilled."

You're welcome. I think.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I was on the couch, in my underwear, when I heard a car pull up in my driveway. I looked out and saw them.

They were stunned, and their jaws were dropped, to see and hear such a spectacle.

Guy comes to the door in his grungies rambling on about things which happened 200 years ago ... And their jaws dropped ... Stunned in disbelief ... And you're surprised?!?

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Then the one that's been coming humbly responded, "How many times did it take Edison to invent the light bulb?" I said, "Edison didn't invent the light bulb, but it took him a thousand tries to invent the bulb that could be marketed. So are you saying that if you keep saying, "Jesus is coming back tomorrow sooner or later you'll be right?""

God has a different rule. If the prophet is wrong once, then he's no prophet. God doesn't give him a thousand shots at it, to get it right. Now, we are to forgive our brothers, the failed prophets, seven times seventy, yes. We are to receive them, but not as prophets, but as brothers. Guys like Miller and Russel were brothers who lost their way. As did Nee and Lee. As do we all, at some point. We forgive others, just as God forgave us in Christ Jesus. We receive one another, just as God received us in Christ Jesus.

Speaking of failed prophets, and rejecting false ones, when prophets peddle their predictions for lucre, I am wary, to say the least. Here's Jonathan Cahn on the Jim Bakker show, peddling his wares. I believe that 100 bucks will get you the deluxe set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99jZ6LmbbBc

Jim Bakker, for those of you living on Pluto, is a disgraced former televangelist, who when he was released from the slammer (serving time for mail fraud), got right back into the "beseeching for money" business, complete with a new bottle-blonde wife.

These guys are addicted to lucre. It distorts their vision, their testimony, and their person. Yes they are brothers, but long ago (so it seems to me) they lost their way. I already gave my savings to Lee, to build his La Palma campus; why give to yet another huckster? If there is something to the "Blood Moon Prophecy", I believe the Lord will exonerate me for not taking it from Cahn, Hagee et al.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

..If there is something to the "Blood Moon Prophecy", I believe the Lord will exonerate me for not taking it from Cahn, Hagee et al.

I don't know about the "exonerate" part, but you can't always choose the messenger. Check the message with the word. Take the message to the Lord and take the answer from Him. Something we didn't do with Lee. I get it.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

God has a different rule. If the prophet is wrong once, then he's no prophet. God doesn't give him a thousand shots at it, to get it right. Now, we are to forgive our brothers, the failed prophets, seven times seventy, yes. We are to receive them, but not as prophets, but as brothers. Guys like Miller and Russel were brothers who lost their way. As did Nee and Lee. As do we all, at some point. We forgive others, just as God forgave us in Christ Jesus. We receive one another, just as God received us in Christ Jesus.

Speaking of failed prophets, and rejecting false ones, when prophets peddle their predictions for lucre, I am wary, to say the least. Here's Jonathan Cahn on the Jim Bakker show, peddling his wares. I believe that 100 bucks will get you the deluxe set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99jZ6LmbbBc

Jim Bakker, for those of you living on Pluto, is a disgraced former televangelist, who when he was released from the slammer (serving time for mail fraud), got right back into the "beseeching for money" business, complete with a new bottle-blonde wife.

These guys are addicted to lucre. It distorts their vision, their testimony, and their person. Yes they are brothers, but long ago (so it seems to me) they lost their way. I already gave my savings to Lee, to build his La Palma campus; why give to yet another huckster? If there is something to the "Blood Moon Prophecy", I believe the Lord will exonerate me for not taking it from Cahn, Hagee et al.

Come October if nothing happens everyone that donated to Shemitah can get their money back. Put your requests in now at:

www.JonathanCahnMoneyBackGuarantee.net

If the link doesn't work it means you don't qualify. Your faith is not strong enough to qualify ... or you'd keep sending money anyway.



No money back from Jim Bakker ... you should know better.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Come October if nothing happens everyone that donated to Shemitah can get their money back. Put your requests in now at:

www.JonathanCahnMoneyBackGuarantee.net

If the link doesn't work it means you don't qualify. Your faith is not strong enough to qualify ... or you'd keep sending money anyway.



No money back from Jim Bakker ... you should know better.

What if "something" does happen?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

What if "something" does happen?

Nell

Nell I just heard that this is a year of Jubilee, and it is the 70th Jubilee.

Have you heard this?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nell I just heard that this is a year of Jubilee, and it is the 70th Jubilee.

Have you heard this?

Yes. Sort of. According to what I've read, this could be a Jubilee year. but there isn't really a hard and fast way to tell. If it is a Jubilee year, on the secular calendar the Jubilee year doesn't begin until Sept. 14, 2015 and ends sometime in Sept/October 2016. On the 70th Jubilee, I did some checking and found this:

In September 2015 we start a new Jubilee year. The new Jubilee starts with a partical solar eclipse. It is of special note that this is 40th Jubilee Year since Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. It is also the 70th Jubilee year since the first one was proclaimed by God. The number 40 is the Biblical time period of redemption. The number 70 has the Biblical meaning of perfect completion. So this coming Jubilee Year will very likely have very speical meaning for mankind. Perfect completion of redemption. Be prepared! Be right with God.

The evidence I've read is posted below but to recap.
1917-1918 Balfor Declaration returning Israel to the Jews.
1967-1968 Fifty years later Jerusalem is returned to control of the Jews.
2015-2016 Isn't 50 years on the secular calendar but it does represent 3 cycles of 49 years on the Hebrew calendar.

The years are calculated based on 7 years X 7 = 49 years. The next year is the 50th year, but it's also year 1 of the next 49 years. That's even in the Bible! Lev. 25:8-10 below.

So here's the problem. You have to get year 1 of the 49 years right in order to get the Jubilee year right.

In the last 2 49-year cycles, in the 50th year Israel was restored to the Jews and for the first time in 2000 years the Jews were able to return to their land. The second 50th year, Jerusalem, the Old City, was returned to the Jewish people and once again, they were able to return to their land---the holy city of Jerusalem. It's all about the land given to them by God. Since we're coming up on the 3rd 49-year cycle, world events become significant once again. What's going on in Israel related to their land? I think we should pay attention to Israel.

So it's not a simple answer. Since the 6-day war, 49 years have passed on the Hebrew calendar and that would bring us, on the secular calendar, to Sept. 14, 2015. The belief that this is the Jubilee year is based on events and calculations on the calendars.

I'm paying attention. I can't look at the news (mostly Fox News :-) ) and continue to think current events are "business as usual". I personally believe that Sept. 14, 2015 will begin the Jubilee year, but I could be wrong.

Leviticus 25:8-10New International Version (NIV)
The Year of Jubilee
8 “‘Count off seven sabbath years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbath years amount to a period of forty-nine years. 9 Then have the trumpet sounded everywhere on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement sound the trumpet throughout your land. 10 Consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you; each of you is to return to your family property and to your own clan.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

What if "something" does happen?

Nell

Well sis, it would have to be something out of the ordinary. Not your ordinary catastrophe that happens all the time. Something like the temple mount getting blown up. Something like that. Certainly not a war in the middle east ... that's just normal stuff. Somebody could kill Trump or Obama, or even the Hildabeast, and that wouldn't be enough to convince me that the blood moon had anything to do with it. Jesus coming out of the clouds would be convincing. Bowls of wrath from God would be convincing. Is that what we're expecting?

If so maybe we should buy Jim Bakker's over priced survival kits, and enema kits (yes you heard that right $100) ... lord knows he still needs to pay back debts to the IRS ... before the lord comes back. And selling the apocalypse is the only way he knows.

[Cal]

I think the mistake with prophecy is trying to figure out what it means in detail rather than just getting the general feel for what it is telling us. Prophecy bugs pursue it in the same way Witness Lee pursued "hidden truth"--trying to find that exclusive nugget or insight into universal knowledge and enlightenment that will give you an edge.

At that point prophecy has become a distraction. You are NOT going to find some special key in Bible prophecy that will give you an edge on getting into the kingdom or whatever it is you are trying to achieve.

Here's the key: Jesus is coming back to judge the world, and you. In the meantime he expects to you live a sacrificial, holy life--serving others, spreading the gospel and putting him first. It's that simple. Don't complicate it with prophetical mumbo jumbo.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

In September 2015 we start a new Jubilee year. The new Jubilee starts with a partial solar eclipse. It is of special note that this is 40th Jubilee Year since Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. It is also the 70th Jubilee year since the first one was proclaimed by God. The number 40 is the Biblical time period of redemption. The number 70 has the Biblical meaning of perfect completion. So this coming Jubilee Year will very likely have very special meaning for mankind. Perfect completion of redemption.

This site adds more detailed information including the years of the 70 Jubilees ...

Jesus died in 31 AD in the middle of the 30th Jubilee cycle. There were 40 ½ Jubilee cycles yet to occur to complete the total of 70. When Jesus comes the second time to get His people He will have reigned in heaven as king for 40 ½ Jubilee cycles. He will have reigned from 31 AD – 55 AD (1/2 Jubilee cycle) and from 55AD – 2016 AD (40 Jubilee cycles) for a total of 40 ½ Jubilee cycles.

David reigned over the children of Israel as their king. Notice how long David reigned as king: “And they anointed David king over Israel. David was thirty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned forty years. In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty-three years over all Israel and Judah.” 2 Samuel 5:3-5.

David was a type of Jesus and David’s throne was given to Jesus after His resurrection. “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.” Luke 1:31-33.

David reigned as king on earth for 40 ½ years. Jesus will reign as king in heaven for 40 ½ Jubilees.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

In 1917-1918, World War I, the Balfour Declaration allowed Jews to come home to Jerusalem from the 4 corners of the world. To the Jewish people this was certainly a Jubilee.

Fifty years later (Hebrew calendar) 1966-67, saw the "6-Day" war in Israel, allowing Israel to recapture Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. However, under UN pressure, Israel gave the Temple Mount back to the Arabs. Again, certainly a Jubilee.

Now, another 50 years from 1966-67 we have 2015-16. This 50 years begins on Sept. 14, 2015. If there was war in Israel, is it likely they would proceed to begin rebuilding the Temple on the Temple Mount? Under what scenario would Israel, if they had control of the Temple Mount, NOT begin rebuilding the temple?

It seems to me that in the entire world, something big is about to happen. It looks like it would a miracle for some global catastrophe NOT to happen.

Nell

Israel is the center of much of the prophecy.

If Balfour Declaration occurred during the 68th Jubilee ...

And Jerusalem became part of Israel on the 69th Jubilee ...

Will we then see the temple built on the 70th Jubliee?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Israel is the center of much of the prophecy.

If Balfour Declaration occurred during the 68th Jubilee ...

And Jerusalem became part of Israel on the 69th Jubilee ...

Will we then see the temple built on the 70th Jubliee?

Is correlation causation? Does God believe the earth is the center of the universe, and that the sun, moon, and stars whirl around and around it? Does God operate based upon the whirling celestial objects? If so, in a universe of hundreds of billion galaxies, why those just around the earth?

Is He waiting for a lunar eclipse to do something? The Jewish calendar came out of the Babylonia lunar year. It was not accurate and had to be adjusted from time to time to match the solar year.

Since the 16th century we no longer think the earth is the center of the universe. The church fought it. They could not stop thinking they were the center of everything. They burned at the stake over it.

And this blood moon thing is nothing more than our inability to let go of the idea that we are the center of everything; the lingering, hundreds of years later, of the church fighting against the earth not being the center of it all.

And our dear Jewish brother Cahn is still caught up in that kind of thinking.

Should our modern minds that know better embrace it?

Just askin'?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Is correlation causation? Does God believe the earth is the center of the universe, and that the sun, moon, and stars whirl around and around it? Does God operate based upon the whirling celestial objects? If so, in a universe of hundreds of billion galaxies, why those just around the earth?

Is He waiting for a lunar eclipse to do something? The Jewish calendar came out of the Babylonia lunar year. It was not accurate and had to be adjusted from time to time to match the solar year.

Since the 16th century we no longer think the earth is the center of the universe. The church fought it. They could not stop thinking they were the center of everything. They burned at the stake over it.

And this blood moon thing is nothing more than our inability to let go of the idea that we are the center of everything; the lingering, hundreds of years later, of the church fighting against the earth not being the center of it all.

And our dear Jewish brother Cahn is still caught up in that kind of thinking.

Should our modern minds that know better embrace it?

Just askin'?

Little obfuscation on my breakfast cereal?

Methinks you got things backwards. Then you throw in some papal nonsense from their dark ages.

God did not wait for the Star of Bethleham in order for Jesus to be born, rather He sovereignly arranged prophecy, world events, and the celestials in order to prepare and announce this most incredible event.

I never read Cahn's books so I really can't answer the rest of your questions.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Come October if nothing happens everyone that donated to Shemitah can get their money back. Put your requests in now....

It's okay; I still have my money. But thanks for asking.

Originally Posted by awareness

No money back from Jim Bakker ... you should know better.

That's essentially been my message on Jonathan Cahn, as well ... you should know better.

Originally Posted by Nell

you can't always choose the messenger. Check the message with the word. Take the message to the Lord and take the answer from Him. Something we didn't do with Lee. I get it.

True - God sends us messengers, occasionally, who are slow of speech and stammering of tongue. He sends messengers like Peter who were "unlettered" in the Pharisees eyes. He sends messengers who had no form or outward comeliness that we might esteem them (cf Isa 53:2); I get that also.

But we are to have standards. The herald of righteousness can't be unrighteous, and the messenger of sobriety can't be a drunk. Etc. One of the NT commands is to watch out for those who are addicted to base gain. (1 Tim 3:8; Titus 1:7). We didn't pick up on that with Lee. Our spiritual antennae should be tuned by now.

Having said that, I add two qualifiers: first is that I often participate in the marketplace of Christian merchandise. My home is full of all sorts of Christian stuff which I've bought. Secondly, I have perhaps arbitrarily singled out someone like Cahn, for a (figurative) beating, when I allow others in my home, and access to my wallet. So my complaint may be very poor, here. In other words, unjustified; this thread has been an opportunity to reveal who I am, which is snide and judgmental. I'm just hard of heart and closed of mind. My "warning from God" antennae are dull. I can't hear the prophet.

But still, at some juncture the stench of "being greedy for base gain" should turn Christians away from the Christian merchandiser. With the LSM, the "One Publication" policy was a wake-up call for many of us, more clear than any Blood Moon. And for me, seeing Cahn and Bakker rubbing elbows and selling trinkets together confirmed my suspicions, rather than dispelling them.

I actually like Cahn, and Bakker, and Hagee. They're Christians. They are my spiritual neighbors, if not brothers. I really like them; their energy, their enthusiasm, their boldness to speak. We can learn from them. I'd rather hang out with them, so to speak, than with an unbeliever. But I strongly suspect that their fixation on lucre has distorted their ministry.

But the message itself, of course, may have validity. I don't know because I've not examined it. I will admit that. But I've been examining other things which Nell and awareness have not. So in that I don't judge another's servant, nor will I be judged by another. Each of us has a portion, and we all complement one another. God has given various gifts, and we shouldn't spurn one another - the greatest commandment is love.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I never read Cahn's books so I really can't answer the rest of your questions.

Then you have no need for a refund. At least you learned something from the local church.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Israel is the center of much of the prophecy.

If Balfour Declaration occurred during the 68th Jubilee ...

And Jerusalem became part of Israel on the 69th Jubilee ...

Will we then see the temple built on the 70th Jubliee?

Unknown.

What we're looking at is world history, especially since 1916. Overlay the Hebrew calendar on the secular calendar and there are some amazing patterns. This is history, and this is fact regardless of the calendar.

Based on the patterns, we look ahead and speculate on what might happen if the pattern/s continue into the future. No one saw this convergence before the last few years.

Others have called Cahn a prophet, but he doesn't call himself a prophet. He's a guy who saw the pattern/s and began to speak about it. Mainly, in the vein of what could happen if the pattern continued. He's a Messianic Rabbi who is fluent in Hebrew. He has a compelling case but has been much maligned on this forum based, not on fact, but on the ability to buy his books. His primary message has been lost, that being, nothing has to happen. You can't put God in a box. The 7-year cycles have not always marked significant events in history.

Why? Because in Leviticus, as long as the people observed the Sabbath of 7-years, they were blessed. When they abandoned the observance, eventually, they were judged.

For the US, things seemed to change in 1973 when the US Supreme Court legalized the murder of its unborn children. Since then an extimated 50,000 children have been murdered. You've seen recentlly the further desecration of unborn children by Planned Parenthood.

This summer the US Supreme Court abolished the "separation of church and state" by desecrating marriage as ordained by God.

There's more, but the point is, IMHO, whatever happens, or doesn't happen, in the 70th Jubilee year will be event driven. This is me believing that when God judges, it will be unmistakable about Who is doing the judging.

In 2001 and 2008 the worst stockmarket crashes occurred precisely 7 years apart on the Hebrew calendar on Elul 29. Elul 29 is the "Day of Nullification" or the biblical day when financial accounts are wiped away....something that certainly happens in a modern day stock market crash. The 7-year pattern is outlined in Leviticus. Although Sabbath/Shemitah was given to Israel only for observance, because of the pattern of 7 years throughout history, it can be considered prophetic. Prophetic not because it MUST HAPPEN, but because of current events and the deterioration of American society, and the pattern will likely continue. If not Sept. 13, 2015, then 7-years from now.

The Nation of Israel is on the verge of extinction, having been abandoned by its strongest ally, the United States and the Obama administration. They have been pushed about as far as possible without a military response. This could become the catalyst that would begin the rebuilding of the Temple. Nothing would surprise me.

Sorry. It took a long time to say "I don't know...maybe". I hope the explanation helps.

Nell

[awareness]

WOW Sis! You said a lot just to say "I don't know ... maybe." But that's the truth about predicting the future.

We like to think we've figured it out, and have put the prophecy puzzle pieces together to draw a picture, and see patterns. It's been attempted many times before, by many, who long ago thought the world had become so corrupt that God was coming soon to judge it. Many have provided exact dates -- only to be disappointed. In fact, in the case of William Miller it was and is even officially called 'The Great Disappointment.' But there has been many other cases in the past, and some, like Harold Camping, rather recently (he made $90 million).

One thing is certain, and I hate to keep pointing this out, but marketing and merchandising of Apocalypticism has paid off time and time again. And believers fall for it time and time again ... sadly. Surely, it has to make Jesus weep, to see he's being used for merchandising, scaring the sheep, and the resulting deceptions.

So I have to wonder: Is this just another case in a long line of apocalyptic flim-flams?

You admit you don't know. Thanks for your honesty. Even Cahn admits he may be wrong, and nothing may happen. I certainly don't know, either way, either outcome.

I guess we'll see within a month. I'll pop some corn on the night of the final blood moon. But it won't be as scary as back when they wrote of the blood moon in the Bible, now that we know the natural causes of it ... and what makes it look like blood ... that they had no clue of.

[Nell]

Sooooo...Dude. How much money did you spend on Cahn's books and DVD's??????

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Sooooo...Dude. How much money did you spend on Cahn's books and DVD's??????

Nell

It seems that some categorically reject any and all prophecy just because there have been false prophets.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Sooooo...Dude. How much money did you spend on Cahn's books and DVD's??????

Nell

There's lot's of free videos, so let's just say I have no refund coming. My favorite video was him speaking at the Presidential Inaugural Prayer Breakfast. I passed it on to others. I love when he breaks out in tongues, with the band in crescendo ... great theatrics ... a Rabbi speaking in tongues ... WOW!

A tetrad of Lunar Eclipses has been going on long before Jews walked the earth. Why are they now related to the Jews? Isn't Cahn possibly just being Jew-centric; cuz he's a Jew with a big ego (kind of obvious)? And forget Hagee, he's got the Jerusalem syndrome. Both are making lots of money ; selling the apocalypse.

Concerning America becoming so corrupt that God's coming to judge it:
America has in the past been much more corrupt. Like when Christians, so to speak, were slaughtering the Indians. Killing is much worse than gays getting married. And even abortion is not as corrupt as systematized genocide -- and slavery -- of a race of people. That's right up there with Hitler gassing 6 million Jews. By comparison I'd say we're not as corrupt as we use to be.

America was not founded on Christian principles, unless it was dark ages kind of Christian principles. It was founded on corruption.

Christopher Columbus started it when he bashed Indian babies against the rocks. And Ben Franklin, a self-proclaimed deist, called them, "Christian White Savages," who "carried the Bible in one hand and the hatchet in the other" to scalp Indians with.

America's history has been much more corrupt than it is today. Where was God's judgement then? Why now? Because we're the center of the universe?

And why are we so obsessed with the Jesus killers?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems that some categorically reject any and all prophecy just because there have been false prophets.

It also seems that mockery is the standard response.

Nell

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

And why are we so obsessed with the Jesus killers?

"Jesus killers"? Really Harold?
Read your Bible Harold, it will not only do you some spiritual good, it will straighten out your twisted historical perspective as well.

For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. (John 10:17,18)

Yes, from our limited, ignorant and fallen human perspective, the Jews "killed the Author of life" (Acts 3:15), however, from God's standpoint (the only one that counts) "The Lamb of God" was sacrificed for our redemption from eternal damnation.

As for the rest of the political stuff you posted. NOT WELCOMED HERE ON THE MAIN FORUM. As soon as you find out that Jonathan Cahn or his followers (or Nee/Lee and followers) are bashing Indian babies against the rocks you're welcome to come back and pop off about stuff that happened 200-500 years ago.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Jesus killers"? Really Harold?
Read your Bible Harold, it will not only do you some spiritual good, it will straighten out your twisted historical perspective as well.

For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. (John 10:17,18)

Yes, from our limited, ignorant and fallen human perspective, the Jews "killed the Author of life" (Acts 3:15), however, from God's standpoint (the only one that counts) "The Lamb of God" was sacrificed for our redemption from eternal damnation.

As for the rest of the political stuff you posted. NOT WELCOMED HERE ON THE MAIN FORUM. As soon as you find out that Jonathan Cahn or his followers (or Nee/Lee and followers) are bashing Indian babies against the rocks you're welcome to come back and pop off about stuff that happened 200-500 years ago.

Good verse (John 10).

And I was just trying to point out that we're not as corrupt today as Cahn and others like to claim.

[Nell]

"... Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained: ..." George Washington's First Inaugural Address, 1789

Was George Washington a "deist"? Maybe. Regardless, that's beyond the scope of this post. For sake of argument, lets assume that for GW, this was the single moment of clarity in his life when he spoke this sentence, and he spoke the truth.

What is he saying? What does that mean? It means, you can't have it both ways. You can't expect His blessing while disregarding the eternal rules of order and right which God Himself ordained.

You can't "...make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..." then prohibit the free exercise of religion.

**You can't put IN GOD WE TRUST on your currency and murder the children He created.

**You can't pledge allegiance to ONE NATION, UNDER GOD and ban prayer in schools.

**You can't end the oath of office with SO HELP ME GOD and redefine marriage as ordained by the God whose help you seek.

You can't say "America was not founded on Christian principles" when its currency, its allegiance and its oath clearly state otherwise.

You can't have it both ways.

In the following scripture, God was compelled to set Job straight about a few things:

Job 38:1-7 (NIV)
The Lord Speaks
38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
The whole, long, chapter is like this. God makes His point with Job.

Of the things that Cahn has written, this is the one I appreciate the most. I see it as a kinder, gentler reminder of what God had to say to Job.

The Last Shemitah
Even when it comes in the form of judgment, the Shemitah is ultimately a manifestation of mercy in that it reminds, calls back, and warns----in view of a greater Shemitah yet to come. This greater Shemitah concerns not so much nations, but every individual, every life. It is the last Shemitah.

The last Shemitah declares that all things---our lives, our beings, our breath---come as gifts from God. Of ourselves we have nothing. All our notions of ownership are an illusion; all our pride, a deception. We are not sovereign but completely dependent. Everything we have---our possessions, our money, our riches, every moment of our lives---everything has been given to us. Every heartbeat is borrowed. … “
The Mystery of the Shemitah, Jonathan Cahn, pp. 247-248

I don't know everything, but I'm thankful for the warning. I don't know where I was when God put everything together, but I pray for His mercy on us. This country is His to bless and/or judge as He sees fit. I want to be completely dependent on Him. Everything I have is a gift from Him. Thank you Lord.

As people and as a nation, we have offended You greatly and I am so sorry.

Nell

In God we Trust; One Nation, Under God; So help me God

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

In God we Trust; One Nation, Under God; So help me God

To me it is abundantly clear that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and that God has both blessed our country, and has used this country to benefit the rest of the earth.

Just look at the facts. Objectively, please.

That's not to say we are a "Christian country" per se, nor that our government officials should be considered godly representatives of the Almighty. That was never the intention of the founding fathers, nor should we even equate what was written to Israel in the Bible with the US as a country. Israel alone, not the USA, could be considered the nation of Jehovah.

I believe part of our national blessing, however, can be attributed to our support of Israel. And I believe the contrapositive is also true, that is, the less we support Israel, the less God will bless us with his favor. The daily news reports support this. Isn't it tragic that the book of Revelation seems to have no mention of the so-called "greatest nation on earth."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To me it is abundantly clear that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and that God has both blessed our country, and has used this country to benefit the rest of the earth.

Just look at the facts. Objectively, please.

That's not to say we are a "Christian country" per se, nor that our government officials should be considered godly representatives of the Almighty. That was never the intention of the founding fathers, nor should we even equate what was written to Israel in the Bible with the US as a country. Israel alone, not the USA, could be considered the nation of Jehovah.

I believe part of our national blessing, however, can be attributed to our support of Israel. And I believe the contrapositive is also true, that is, the less we support Israel, the less God will bless us with his favor. The daily news reports support this. Isn't it tragic that the book of Revelation seems to have no mention of the so-called "greatest nation on earth."

Ohio,

You are correct.

Genesis 12:2-4 (KJV)
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

You are correct.

Genesis 12:2-4 (KJV)
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Nell

Have you noticed that America is right in Jerusalem?

How about if I spell it this way -- Jerusalem?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you noticed that America is right in Jerusalem?

How about if I spell it this way -- Jerusalem?

I like it.

[awareness]

See how ignorant I am of this stuff. I didn't know that the 4th blood moon is predicted to bring a meteor crashing into the earth. Yet:

"Minority Christian groups have predicted the world will end later this month – when they say a ‘blood moon’ will bring about an apocalyptic meteor strike."

Taught by pastors Mark Biltz and John Hagee.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...-10491339.html

[Ohio]

This Sunday evening begins Elul 29 (last day of Jewish year) beginning Rosh Hashani (Jewish New Year) and completing their last Shmita year.

Previous Shmita years in 2001 and 2008 have coincided with serious losses in our financial markets.

No predictions here. Just watching and praying.

[awareness]

Maybe it will be a comet:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ike-Earth.html

[awareness]

Even Mormons believe September marks the end. They're called Preppers:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...day-month.html

[awareness]

Mormon survivalists warn followers to prepare for September apocalypse

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3lp177b4g
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[awareness]

The sky is speaking:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/mysterious-...ry?id=33834206

[awareness]

I'm seeing the blood moon ... sitting on pins and needles... waiting for bowls of wrath.

[OBW]

Too many thin clouds to really see the color where I live.

[awareness]

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

What did Cahn predict would happen?

[Jesus4Me]

Originally Posted by awareness

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

The point is to be always ready. If Jesus said that He will come like a thief in the night; at a time when no one will think He will come; one could surmise such a time when nothing happens after all of these convincing predictions, and wind up with people mocking disappointed christians, then that is when people & believers may let their guards down; and viola; Hello.

BTW: If believers think all christians will be raptured; they are wrong. Only those abiding in Him as His disciples, by His grace & by His help, will be taken since no flesh shall glory in His Prescence, the "elect" will be praising the Lord for delivering them by His righteousness & His faithfulness; which is part of the reason why Jesus was warning believers, even His disciples, to always be ready by preparing themselves to be ready by Him to meet the Bridegroom by running that race in laying aside every weight & sin as the Author & Finsher of our faith will finish His work in us since the just can only live by faith.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Notice how He still calls those left behind in receiving stripes His servants as He is the Lord of that servant still as prophesied of old.

Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. 29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. 30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; 32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

So this is where we get Christ's the firstfruits at the pre trib rapture and they that be Chrust's at His coming.

1 Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is where we get the vessels unto dishonour from that are still in His House for failing to look to Him in trusting Him as their Good Shepherd for help & discernment in departing from iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So best stop looking for signs in getting oneself ready; time to look to the Good Shepherd in prayer for help in being ready & found abiding in Him. Don't take any christian teaching at face value.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That's addressing the Son of God at that throne of grace: not the "Spirit". Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom; best be readied by the Bridegroom, because He is the One that has the power to answers prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

There is no other way to approach God the Father in prayer, fellowship, or worship & the real indwelling Holy Spirit is pointing you to keep going to the Bridegroom so that you may avoid seducing spirits that seek to lure you away in chasing after them for a sign; even a sign of tongues that comes with no interpretation, thus becoming an adulterous generation.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

The solution for any one that has gone astray is to narrow the way back to the staight gate; our first love and ask Jesus, the Son of God, for help in keeping their eyes on the Son in all things since the Bridegroom is coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....

Below is what believers get for not heeding the commandment of His invitation on how anyone continues to come to God the Father by.

Matthew 7: 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

That is why believers are falling down when addressing "the Spirit" in worship in all of these movements of the "Spirit". That was not the real indwelling Holy Spirit answering that call. Nope. It is not the Spirit's job to answer prayers, but lead us to testify of the Son ( John 15:26-27 ) even in worship thereby glorifying the Son ( John 16:13-14 ) and by doing so; glorifies God the Father as well ( Philippians 2:5-13 ) which is what Paul wanted all believers to obey, even in his absence.

Signs are not the wake up call; they do not get us ready; His words does and only He can help us to understand and discern by His words as kept by thoe that loved Him & His words in the KJV to get readied by Him and stay ready as abiding in Him & His words for when the Bridegroom comes.

To Him goes all the glory & thanksgiving; & by Him, the Father as well.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

Eternity.....

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Jesus4Me

The point is to be always ready. If Jesus said that He will come like a thief in the night; at a time when no one will think He will come; one could surmise such a time when nothing happens after all of these convincing predictions, and wind up with people mocking disappointed christians, then that is when people & believers may let their guards down; and viola; Hello.

BTW: If believers think all christians will be raptured; they are wrong. Only those abiding in Him as His disciples, by His grace & by His help, will be taken since no flesh shall glory in His Prescence, the "elect" will be praising the Lord for delivering them by His righteousness & His faithfulness; which is part of the reason why Jesus was warning believers, even His disciples, to always be ready by preparing themselves to be ready by Him to meet the Bridegroom by running that race in laying aside every weight & sin as the Author & Finsher of our faith will finish His work in us since the just can only live by faith.

I agree, it is a slippery slope.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Dave

Eternity.....

I'm pretty sure he will explain everything in his next book, which you can probably pre-order at his website!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm pretty sure he will explain everything in his next book, which you can probably pre-order at his website!

Instead of buying his book, if we kept OT laws today, we'd have to stone him as a false prophet.

But we've got to give it until October 1. If nothing then, gather yer stones.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

Instead of buying his book, if we kept OT laws today, we'd have to stone him as a false prophet.

But we've got to give it until October 1. If nothing then, gather yer stones.

Oops! Now you've got me worried. Me and my sarcasm may get me into big trouble someday. But sarcasm is not as big of a sin as oh-I-don't-know...allowing married sisters to be molested by your office manager, taking retirement money from religious followers to bank-roll your son's business, slandering faithful co-workers, calling every group but your own a prostitute, suing your Christian brothers for critiquing your doctrine or practices, right?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

Oops! Now you've got me worried. Me and my sarcasm may get me into big trouble someday. But sarcasm is not as big of a sin as oh-I-don't-know...allowing married sisters to be molested by your office manager, taking retirement money from religious followers to bank-roll your son's business, slandering faithful co-workers, calling every group but your own a prostitute, suing your Christian brothers for critiquing your doctrine or practices, right?

Don't rightly know if God believes in or uses statistics, but the Christian scholar who wrote this paper doesn't have much confidence in Cahn's analysis.


"I am a lecturer in empirical research methods at a Christian university, and have written a comprehensive empirical and statistical evaluation of Cahn's hypothesis, using GDP and stock market data, in order to verify or rebut his claims." The report can be downloaded at http://bit.ly/1LNdeKE.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

Oops! Now you've got me worried. Me and my sarcasm may get me into big trouble someday. But sarcasm is not as big of a sin as oh-I-don't-know...allowing married sisters to be molested by your office manager, taking retirement money from religious followers to bank-roll your son's business, slandering faithful co-workers, calling every group but your own a prostitute, suing your Christian brothers for critiquing your doctrine or practices, right?

Bro, I don't mean to make you worry. Cahn is selling worry. But I don't get it. What's to worry about? Unless you're not abiding. Other than that there's no worry. I may be living smack dub in the middle of Sodom and Gomorrah but I didn't do it. I'm like Lot (he was far from perfect) without the angels.

So what? Shemitah is rolling 'round? Should I run from Sodom & Gamorrah? Like Lot? I don't know. Does Cahn sell survival kits? Or does he refer that to Jim Bakker?

Anyways! These boys are selling fear. But what's to fear?

Hey, I saw the super duper blood moon. Then I went to sleep and didn't wake up dead. (The world I wake up to has to be something like hell. It's hard to tell.) That's real cool tho. But waking up dead wouldn't be bad either.

No worries ....

[Nell]

Originally Posted by OBW

Too many thin clouds to really see the color where I live.

I couldn't see any color through the naked eye, but through my camera lense it was fantastic. I got some great color in a few pictures with a telephoto zoom on a tripod. I'll try to post one.

Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm pretty sure he will explain everything in his next book, which you can probably pre-order at his website!

Wow, Awesome, I can't wait....

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

How long do we have to wait to confirm or disconfirm Cahn's prediction?

I'm with Ohio. What did Cahn predict? What are you trying to confirm...or deny?

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

I'm with Ohio. What did Cahn predict? What are you trying to confirm...or deny?

Nell

You're kidding. Right?

[awareness]

I think something bad is going to happen. I can feel it. It can't stay good forever. We are bad, bad, bad, so bad, and deserve to be spanked.

Since Nell asked what was predicted I decided to go back over the thread to maybe pluck some predictions out. So I started out at post #1, where Jane is sharing some kind of burden, or thing, and a video, that "moved her to her core."

So what the heck, I thought, I'll just watch the video again. The link now says something to the effect of "this video has been pulled by provider." Anyway, I found it elsewhere, and started watching it. I'm about 6 minutes in and I can already see thru this preacher. His opening prayer begs for a Prophetic Word, and for him to be faithful to sound the alarm. He's a gifted pitchman. He reminds me of Max Rappaport, in his heyday in the LC.

However, I think I can see what's troubling him, and likely Thankful Jane as well. Cahn is speaking back in Feb. 2013. He's saying Israel lost it's God, its founder, and became vulgar; and God judged her for it. And the same thing is happening in America, and WILL happen to America.

That's the prediction Nell is asking for.

Well looky, looky. Here it is 2015. And the Supreme's ruled that same sex marriage is legal in all 50 states. Talk about a harbinger. Cahn was surely answering the call and sounding the alarm.

Then, ring in the 4 blood moons, and surely that is the timing of God's coming judgement upon America.

There you have it. The prediction you asked for.

Still watching and waiting.

Can't you feel it? Something bad is gonna happen. And America deserves it. If God doesn't judge America He's gonna have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Nell]

Awareness,

If you want to have a discussion based on mutual respect, I can do that. But, your mind is clearly made up, and all I can see in your post is mockery...so...have a nice day.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Awareness,

If you want to have a discussion based on mutual respect, I can do that. But, your mind is clearly made up, and all I can see in your post is mockery...so...have a nice day.

Nell

Just trying to point to the prediction. Which is, God is about to judge America soon.

And, by the way, something big always happens in relation to Israel when Shemitah happens with 4 blood moons on holy high days.

All I see so far is that it's well known that September 30th is a bad day for the stock market, historical records show.

And I have not been disrespectful toward you sis Nell.

However, you didn't expect me to just forget about it, did you?

I'm more obsessed with prophecy than prophecy nuts ... even tho keeping up with it for decades I've become very skeptical of it.

I'd like to see a new heaven and a new earth as much as anyone else. This world now really sucks.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

All I see so far is that it's well known that September 30th is a bad day for the stock market, historical records show.

But it looks like this one will go out with a $237 uptick, or 1.47% up for the day. And even if the year is a little down, the record of the stock market is that it consistently goes up unless you are only in it for quick profits.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just trying to point to the prediction. Which is, God is about to judge America soon.

And, by the way, something big always happens in relation to Israel when Shemitah happens with 4 blood moons on holy high days.

All I see so far is that it's well known that September 30th is a bad day for the stock market, historical records show.

And I have not been disrespectful toward you sis Nell.

However, you didn't expect me to just forget about it, did you?

I'm more obsessed with prophecy than prophecy nuts ... even tho keeping up with it for decades I've become very skeptical of it.

I'd like to see a new heaven and a new earth as much as anyone else. This world now really sucks.

I didn't say you were disrespectful toward me. No I didn't expect you to forget about "it". I can't even read the mockery, it's just so old and not helpful to a mutually respectful conversation.

I will point you to the events in China of the last few months, as well as the extraordinary events today involving Russia.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just trying to point to the prediction. Which is, God is about to judge America soon.

Perhaps you are on to something awareness.

All of a sudden we have the Russians attacking our allies in Syria; the day after the two presidents just met together for handshakes and Lattes. Surprise, surprise! Imagine that, Russia "the king from the north" now has its military in the Mideast, and we have been asked to kindly "leave." Now get out!

All of a sudden Joaquin is looking like it may be worse than Super Storm Sandy. That would make two "hundred year" events in three years. Since when do hurricanes turn west after going up the east coast?

Of course, we can't attribute "climate change" to God, now can we? Somebody please buy me a Tesla. Quick!

And for sure, all those "blood moons" on the Jewish feasts are just interesting night time viewing for astronomy students.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps you are on to something awareness.

All of a sudden we have the Russians attacking our allies in Syria; the day after the two presidents just met together for handshakes and Lattes. Surprise, surprise! Imagine that, Russia "the king from the north" now has its military in the Mideast, and we have been asked to kindly "leave." Now get out!

All of a sudden Joaquin is looking like it may be worse than Super Storm Sandy. That would make two "hundred year" events in three years. Since when do hurricanes turn west after going up the east coast?

Of course, we can't attribute "climate change" to God, now can we? Somebody please buy me a Tesla. Quick!

And for sure, all those "blood moons" on the Jewish feasts are just interesting night time viewing for astronomy students.

Well the Russians and Joaquin are just ordinary ... so far.

Climate change? That's just proof that God's anger is heating up.

The blood moons? Now that I think about it, is Cahn's, and Hagee's version of astrology. What's your zodiac sign?

But, hey! The Pope showed up right at the 4th super blood moon. And he made history, a few times.

He seems to think, based on his recent encyclical on climate change, that we just aren't hugging enough trees, and are mistreating our mother earth. He seems to be thinking in the long run. No near end of days for him.

Maybe he's not informed about Jonathan Cahn. Or maybe he is.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well the Russians and Joaquin are just ordinary ... so far.

What the Russians just did to us is not ordinary.

Not sure what will happen to Joaquin. The highly successful European weather model shows it going out to sea.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All of a sudden we have the Russians attacking our allies in Syria

Which group in Syria is really our ally? Seems that just before ISIS we were backing anyone standing up to the gov't there.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since when do hurricanes turn west after going up the east coast?

Not common, but not the first time either.

Originally Posted by Ohio

And for sure, all those "blood moons" on the Jewish feasts are just interesting night time viewing for astronomy students.

But Jewish feasts follow a lunar calendar. And eclipses occur along cycles as well. So somewhere along the way the two cycles overlapped in a manner that gave us these peculiar eclipses in sync with certain Jewish feasts.

If this was really how it was all intended to be, it was not very unknown. With today's science, it could have been predicted centuries in advance. So God set a couple of lunar clocks in motion and decided to just wait for them to overlap a couple of times, then he would start punishing whatever nation had claimed to be his modern Israel by making the continuing tide of worldwide calamities . . . well . . . . continue.

We've been in the track of hurricanes since before Columbus sailed. Getting involved in everyone else's conflicts has tended to get us into problems almost from the beginning. And blood moons have surely crossed the path of Jewish feasts in the past. Who was getting thrashed behind the barn then?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Which group in Syria is really our ally?

The USA used to ally with the Christians around the world, especially those being slaughtered.

[awareness]

At any rate, guys and gals, things are going on now, after the last tetrad of blood moons, and here now on Oct. 1. things are going just about the same as before the 4 blood moons.

So it was much ado over nothing.

But actually I think it's something we've developed long ago, to enhance the likelihood of our survival.

And it's called the : Hypersensitive agency detection device - HADD. Or, that, "humans tend to interpret ambiguous stimuli as having been produced by agents."

“When HADD perceives an object violating the intuitive assumptions for the movement of ordinary physical objects (such as moving on non-inertial paths, changing direction inexplicably, or launching itself from a standstill) and the object seems to be moving in a goal-directed manner, HADD detects agency” [5]. HADD could contribute to the formation of religious concepts by making people identify ambiguous objects as intentional agents (e.g., ghosts or spirits), or by causing objects correctly identified as such to be perceived as invested with agency (e.g., seeing a thunderstorm as manifestation of a deity’s will). In addition, HADD could serve to reinforce religious concepts. For example, people who experience salient but surprising, unexpected, or extraordinary events (e.g., surviving a shipwreck or a serious illness) often report the presence of non-natural agency in their accounts of those events. Furthermore, certain features of objects and living things are often reinterpreted in a teleological or functional sense – that is, purposefulness that cannot be attributed to natural agents may be attributed to non-natural agents; in this sense the features in question appear to be understood as ‘traces’ of non-natural agency.

http://www.icea.ox.ac.uk/fileadmin/CAM/HADD.pdf

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The USA used to ally with the Christians around the world, especially those being slaughtered.

Somewhat true. But there have been competing non-Christian factions in Syria for quite some time and it has been one or the other of those that had our interest for recent times. No waiting for the blood moons to go there. And with the recent civil war in Syria, it was neither side that was particularly positive. But it was popular to support the non-government side, so that is what we did. As if all the atrocities belonged to one side.

I would hope that the Christians in Syria are our allies. But they may not be. Same for many other nations. And when there is war and neither one is really supportive of the Christians, picking sides is not a Christian thing.

But the real question is why do we think that throwing our weight around throughout the world to support minority Christian groups, or rather doing less of it, is a reason that God would seek judgment on us? If this was really about God's justice, then maybe being as peaceful as possible to the extent that it is not about our own borders may be closer to a "Christian" position. Not saying go totally pacifist, but questioning the claim of being "Christian" in the position of taking part in wars around the world just because there are certain kinds of people involved there. Why not take up the side of every downtrodden group in the world? Go to every country and exert political and even military pressure to treat them all better. It would make us feel better, and would be in compliance of God's requirement to love everyone.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Why not take up the side of every downtrodden group in the world? Go to every country and exert political and even military pressure to treat them all better. It would make us feel better, and would be in compliance of God's requirement to love everyone.

I know - once we were in Iraq and couldn't find WMD, King George II said that it was about "freedom." We invaded Iraq to release the poor suffering Iraqis from a brutal dictator. Okay, why not invade Cuba, then? Or North Korea? Why pick a particular case and pretend it fulfills some universal ideal?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I know - once we were in Iraq and couldn't find WMD, King George II said that it was about "freedom." We invaded Iraq to release the poor suffering Iraqis from a brutal dictator. Okay, why not invade Cuba, then? Or North Korea? Why pick a particular case and pretend it fulfills some universal ideal?

But what about Gog and Magog? No relation to the 4 blood moons?

[UntoHim]

Guys, this thread is beginning to wander. Is there any way we can tighten it up a bit? Let's let Nell take the lead on keeping the thread on track. And no, I'm not saying you have to agree with her per se, but let's at least address the issues at hand and not wander so much off into peripheral issues. And most important, let's try our best to not misunderstand on purpose

[Nell]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Guys, this thread is beginning to wander. Is there any way we can tighten it up a bit? Let's let Nell take the lead on keeping the thread on track. And no, I'm not saying you have to agree with her per se, but let's at least address the issues at hand and not wander so much off into peripheral issues. And most important, let's try our best to not misunderstand on purpose

UntoHim,

This thread went off the rails so long ago, it's hard to even find the rails.

The title is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us." It quickly deteriorated into an effort to discredit Jonathan Cahn. I read 2 of his books, and I appreciate very much the look at the pattern of historical events he presented. A lot of things make sense in this perspective. The closest thing Cahn had to a "prediction" was a statement that began "I believe..." which isn't a prediction at all but a statement of what he believes. This was lost on this topic.

It woke me up to things I had not heard or considered. If God was speaking, I wanted to be listening. I will never understand why there was so much blow back on this topic. Do you believe God reads this forum? He knows our hearts and our minds, so in that sense, He read every post.

So with that, I'll repeat the primary message, if indeed we are in the end-times, then be prepared by getting your life right with God. Watch and pray. Share the gospel.

Nell

[Ohio]

Yesterday Israel's Prime Minister spoke at the United Nations. Israel has always been our chief ally in the region. Our UN ambassador received a note from the White House not to attend.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yesterday Israel's Prime Minister spoke at the United Nations. Israel has always been our chief ally in the region. Our UN ambassador received a note from the White House not to attend.

Did you hear the 45 seconds of silence?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

So with that, I'll repeat the primary message, if indeed we are in the end-times, then be prepared by getting your life right with God. Watch and pray. Share the gospel.

I'll say amen to that. Even if we are not in the end times we should say amen to that. We should always remember that even if this world rocks on for another few thousand years, each of us will approach the end times much sooner than that, and maybe even sooner than we think.

Let's just leave the speaking of people who seem to be more about novel prophecy and America as a covenant nation, like Israel, out of it. Let's stop worrying about whether the nation does this or that and worry about what we, the kingdom of God, are doing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Did you hear the 45 seconds of silence?

Yes, and I heard silence from that rainbow-colored house in Wash. D.C. concerning the gunning down of Christians at that college in Oregon.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, and I heard silence from that rainbow-colored house in Wash. D.C. concerning the gunning down of Christians at that college in Oregon.

Not true. Just google it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Not true. Just google it.

Is true. Provide your source where Christians were mentioned.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Is true. Provide your source where Christians were mentioned.

This subject is really out there on this thread. I'll hit you in PM. But can be found on Christiantoday.com

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Not true. Just google it.

As Ohio said, the Rainbowhouse instructed the US Ambassador and Kerry not to attend the speech. Anything else? I can't find anything else from yesterday.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

This thread went off the rails so long ago, it's hard to even find the rails.

The title is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us." It quickly deteriorated into an effort to discredit Jonathan Cahn.

Now, now sis. The OP starts off with Cahn ... and the title is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us." So Thankful Jane must have been telling us that God was speaking to us thru Cahn.

And clearly He wasn't. Sorry you're disappointed. But that's the way that it is.

I can't tell how many doomers and gloomers I've seen all my life, just when cashing out in the supermarket isle.

I read one historical account where someone all the way back in 2500BC was predicting the end of the world, that was "coming soon." It's been going on for more than 4000 years. And we're still here. And the world is still here.

So please forgive me, really really forgive me, if I'm a little skeptical of these sorts of things. It's a fool me once sort of thing ... and you know the rest.

But still, I can't help but keep up with all this prophecy stuff. I've got some kind of disorder about it, even tho I can't identify it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

This subject is really out there on this thread. I'll hit you in PM. But can be found on Christiantoday.com

You still have not proven your point.

My point was simple: the media mentioned Christians being killed for who they were, but prez did not.

But if you pretend to make a clock that happens to look like a bomb, then you will get a personal invite, all expense paid trip, to the rainbowhouse.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

Now, now sis. The OP starts off with Cahn ... and the title is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us." So Thankful Jane must have been telling us that God was speaking to us thru Cahn.

And clearly He wasn't. Sorry you're disappointed. But that's the way that it is.

I can't tell how many doomers and gloomers I've seen all my life, just when cashing out in the supermarket isle.

I read one historical account where someone all the way back in 2500BC was predicting the end of the world, that was "coming soon." It's been going on for more than 4000 years. And we're still here. And the world is still here.

So please forgive me, really really forgive me, if I'm a little skeptical of these sorts of things. It's a fool me once sort of thing ... and you know the rest.

But still, I can't help but keep up with all this prophecy stuff. I've got some kind of disorder about it, even tho I can't identify it.

Seems like something is going on. I've read about prophecy since Hall Lindsey in the 70s. Russia moving into Syria right next to Israel raises my eyebrow. The U.S. backing away from Israel and becoming isolationist plays into the belief that an attack on Israel by Russia and the hordes could happen. But, the Lord said it would be like a thief in the night...I don't know kind of like surprising everyone...except for the more spiritual ones who can read the tea leaves and then write books and cash in on the fear of others. I guess I need to keep my heart ready and not play the prediction game.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Seems like something is going on. I've read about prophecy since Hall Lindsey in the 70s. Russia moving into Syria right next to Israel raises my eyebrow. The U.S. backing away from Israel and becoming isolationist plays into the belief that an attack on Israel by Russia and the hordes could happen. But, the Lord said it would be like a thief in the night...I don't know kind of like surprising everyone...except for the more spiritual ones who can read the tea leaves and then write books and cash in on the fear of others. I guess I need to keep my heart ready and not play the prediction game.

Not understanding this part bolded. What is "it?"

The Lord said the rapture, or "taking," of certain believers will be like "a thief in the night."

But on other occasions He warned them to heed the "signs." I would consider Israel central to the "signs" we look for, especially since both the OT and NT point to them.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by awareness

Now, now sis. The OP starts off with Cahn ... and the title is "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us." So Thankful Jane must have been telling us that God was speaking to us thru Cahn.

And clearly He wasn't. Sorry you're disappointed. But that's the way that it is.

Really? You presume that God hasn't spoken through Cahn? You presume that I'm disappointed? You presume to speak for God? "That's the way it is" because you say so? Who are you?

You dismiss God's working at your own risk, but don't presume you know me.

I can't tell how many doomers and gloomers I've seen all my life, just when cashing out in the supermarket isle.

I read one historical account where someone all the way back in 2500BC was predicting the end of the world, that was "coming soon." It's been going on for more than 4000 years. And we're still here. And the world is still here.

So please forgive me, really really forgive me, if I'm a little skeptical of these sorts of things. It's a fool me once sort of thing ... and you know the rest.

But still, I can't help but keep up with all this prophecy stuff. I've got some kind of disorder about it, even tho I can't identify it.

And you believe what you read in the supermarket isle?

From the Bible...a more reliable source than the supermarket isle, "A day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day." That should put "soon" into perspective.

Nell

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Nell

Really? You presume that God hasn't spoken through Cahn?

Well based upon the evidence presented in the OP. Plus what I gathered about the mystery of Shemitah, and a few other videos, I think it's a safe presumption that Cahn's "sounding the alarm" was is wrong.

Originally Posted by Nell

You presume that I'm disappointed?

I did. Sorry for misreading the signals, that you were really buying into Cahn. I should have known better. You were just as burned by the LC as I was. If I was gonna presume anything I should presume that you can't hook your wagon like you once did in the LC ever again. So I'm happy you weren't expecting for Cahn to be right, so you weren't disappointed. In fact, it makes my heart go pitter-patter.

Originally Posted by Nell

You presume to speak for God?

Not guilty. I went back and checked. All I mention about God was that He wasn't speaking to us thru Cahn.

Originally Posted by Nell

"That's the way it is" because you say so?

No, because it actually happened that way. And THAT'S the way that it is. I was just pointing at it.

Originally Posted by Nell

Who are you?

Just an idiot trying to keep in touch with things.

Originally Posted by Nell

You dismiss God's working at your own risk

So I'm very glad He's a very loving and forgiving God.

Originally Posted by Nell

. . . but don't presume you know me.

Haven't even met you.

Originally Posted by Nell

And you believe what you read in the supermarket isle?

Hahaha ... no, but I read it. I'm always attracted to prediction of coming doom. It makes me laugh when it doesn't happen. I laugh a lot.

Originally Posted by Nell

From the Bible...a more reliable source than the supermarket isle, "A day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day." That should put "soon" into perspective.

Yes. So relax. Jesus has only been gone for 2 days. Give him at least a couple of weeks to visit his father. So we've got another 10 thousand years to go before he comes back. What's the hurry?

[countmeworthy]

That's good Harold... We need to be awake. Our Savior and King exhorts us to be awake. I was reading another forum a few minutes ago and the poster commented on Revelation 3:3 which reminded me of what Nell posted and your response. I am pasting here what he wrote:

"Revelation 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, AND you will not know at what time I will come to you.


All the above scriptures are just taken from the Book of Revelation which are the revelation of Jesus Christ to John.

Something to think about and hopefully not to think of it as a parable or a methapor...

What better way to see the big picture is to know the end of the story. Boom!

God Bless,
Eaglet"
http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/oct2015/eaglet104.htm

We are to watch and pray for His coming. Revelation 22 ends with "The Spirit and the Bride say "Come". Come Lord Jesus.

Lots of believers are watching, praying, believing and declaring The KING IS COMING! To those who are truly watching, there is a Crown of Righteousness awaiting those who desire His Appearing.

The Crown is simply more of the Glory of Christ in us. For Christ is our Righteousness.

As for Jonathan Cahn and especially Mark Biltz, they got a lot of people to think and put the pieces of God's puzzle relating to these last days together. I have read the Harbinger, and the Shmittah year. Interesting. I have also watched Cahn on many interviews and while I won't condemn him, I do think he has become a 'sensationalist'. I do think all the attention and perhaps his bank account has gone to his head. That is what I PERCEIVE. It doesn't make me happy but I don't dwell on it or let it bother me because as much as in me is, I am grounded in Christ by His Spirit in me.

I also want to make one final comment regarding the 4 blood moons, the tetrad that of lunar eclipses that occurred on Passover and Succot (Feast of Tabernacles) in 2014 and again on Passover and FOT in 2015.

Acts 2:19-21 quotes Joel 2:28-32
I will cause wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below—blood and fire and clouds of smoke.
20 The sun will become dark, and the moon will turn blood red before that great and glorious day of the Lord arrives.
21 But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Mark Biltz, a true believer in Christ, saw a lunar eclipse over Jerusalem one year he was visiting Israel. (Lunar eclipses occur every year but that they occur on Passover and FOT, 2 yrs in a row is not common.)

As an amateur astronomer, he went to the Nasa website and just started checking out the occurances of lunar eclipses on the Lord's Feasts. The Holy Spirit had him pay attention and thus he came to the realization that when Israel became a nation again in 1948, a lunar tetrad occurred in 1949-1950).

(Btw, as soon as Israel became a nation, the Arabs attacked her) but her status as a Nation was not removed.)
From 1948 to 1967, Jerusalem was a city divided. In June 1967,as a result of the 6 day war, the western sector of Jerusalem became united with it's eastern section. Thus now, JERUSALEM WAS COMPLETELY UNITED. (btw, The Old City, up until 1948, had been annexed by Jordan, and ruled from its capital, Amman. That is why in the heart of the old part of Jerusalem stands the Muslim dome of the rock)

So in 1967 and 1968, there again was another Tetrad of lunar eclipses on Passover and Succot, Passover and Succot.

The lunar tetrads appear to be signs that Israel was/is in danger but God always has come through for her.

So now that Israel is established as a nation and Jerusalem as her capital what would be the purpose of another Tetrad in 2014/2015???

So to the question, IF INDEED, the Tetrad lunar eclipses are a sign for Israel and they appeared when Israel became a nation and again when all of Jerusalem was established officially as her capital, what is next for Israel??

I THINK...it's the Tribulation period to get her to pay attention JESUS CHRIST, YESHUAH HA MESHIAH, is indeed the KING OF THE JEWS. For 7 yrs, God is going to get Israel's undivided attention. And at the end of the day, YESHUAH, THE KING OF kings and LORD of lords will appear for every eye to see HIM at the battle of Armageddon.

THAT is what I THINK is the purpose of this final tetrad. I THINK the tribulation period is very soon in coming for this world. I BELIEVE per GOD's WORD, the Bride, the BLOOD WASHED SAINTS will not suffer the things that will be during the Tribulation. I ALSO THINK, if INDEED THE TRIBULATION IS VERY, VERY SOON IN COMING, then the THOUSAND YEAR REIGN is also soon in coming...

Right now Russia is in Syria as is Iran and according to the DEBKA files:
Russia’s military intervention in Syria has expanded radically in two directions. debkafile’s military and intelligence sources report that China sent word to Moscow Friday, Oct. 2, that J-15 fighter bombers would shortly join the Russian air campaign that was launched Wednesday, Sept. 30.

Eventually, they are all going to gather against Israel. [/B]AND btw. According to the NASA website, there will not be another TETRAD that falls on those feast days for another 500 yrs. (Hmm... seems to me that would be well into the thousand year reign.)

(Harold, buddy, spare me the false jews schpeel. I AM aware of the false Jews etc....) But I am sharing what God has showed me and many, many others.

One last comment before I sign off......
While we are exhorted to search the scriptures and study, we are also told in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”

Peace.
Carol

[awareness]

Hey! Hey! Hey! Our sis Carol is back. Nice to see your shining face too. You left a gap out here, when you disappeared.

But can't help but have some fun with you.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

That's good Harold... We need to be awake. Our Savior and King exhorts us to be awake.

It's a shame we have to be exhorted. I try to be awake even when sleeping. But truly I can't keep up ... and my eyes won't open wide enough to take it all in.

Originally Posted by CMW

I was reading another forum a few minutes ago and the poster commented on Revelation 3:3 which reminded me of what Nell posted and your response. I am pasting here what he wrote:

"Revelation 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, AND you will not know at what time I will come to you.

I try to keep an eye out. I try to keep up with world news. It looks bad. But not as bad as Revelation depicts God's wrath at the end times. Why would any Christian want that? Why would anybody? Are we wanting to love our neighbors to death?

Originally Posted by CMW

[I]All the above scriptures are just taken from the Book of Revelation which are the revelation of Jesus Christ to John.

Something to think about and hopefully not to think of it as a parable or a methapor...

It could also be taken as secret code, understood and unscrambled, by other Christians (that spoke the same symbolic language) ; to avoid persecution in their day.

Who knows for sure what the book of Revelation means? Truth is, we may figure Revelation out, and line it all up, and match it all up, and lay it all down, as written ; and future events may not transpire and unfold as cooked up by so doing. Many have tried. Many, many have failed. I've tried to figure it all out on my own. I gave up. I just throw my arms up and give up. So I'm open when someone claims to have a lock on it. Maybe I can learn something. But people that claim to be speaking for God are people to distrust.

Originally Posted by CMW

What better way to see the big picture is to know the end of the story. Boom!

If Revelation has it, the Big Picture is not all pretty. Lots of people will give their lives for the sake of the New Heaven and New Earth (New Heaven!!!), and many will suffer for ever and ever ... even for, apparently, not watching.

Originally Posted by CMW

As for Jonathan Cahn and especially Mark Biltz, they got a lot of people to think and put the pieces of God's puzzle relating to these last days together. I have read the Harbinger, and the Shmittah year. Interesting. I have also watched Cahn on many interviews and while I won't condemn him, I do think he has become a 'sensationalist'. I do think all the attention and perhaps his bank account has gone to his head. That is what I PERCEIVE. It doesn't make me happy but I don't dwell on it or let it bother me because as much as in me is, I am grounded in Christ by His Spirit in me.

I'll look into any claims that come up. Keeping my eyes open. Unfortunately there'a a long history of flimflam artists and charlatans, that have taken advantage of innocent believers. Just google "The Great Disappointment." I don't think the Lord wants us falling for them.

Originally Posted by CMW

I also want to make one final comment regarding the 4 blood moons, the tetrad that of lunar eclipses that occurred on Passover and Succot (Feast of Tabernacles) in 2014 and again on Passover and FOT in 2015.

Acts 2:19-21 quotes Joel 2:28-32
I will cause wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below—blood and fire and clouds of smoke.
20 The sun will become dark, and the moon will turn blood red before that great and glorious day of the Lord arrives.
21 But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Mark Biltz, a true believer in Christ, saw a lunar eclipse over Jerusalem one year he was visiting Israel. (Lunar eclipses occur every year but that they occur on Passover and FOT, 2 yrs in a row is not common.)

As an amateur astronomer, he went to the Nasa website and just started checking out the occurances of lunar eclipses on the Lord's Feasts. The Holy Spirit had him pay attention and thus he came to the realization that when Israel became a nation again in 1948, a lunar tetrad occurred in 1949-1950).

(Btw, as soon as Israel became a nation, the Arabs attacked her) but her status as a Nation was not removed.)
From 1948 to 1967, Jerusalem was a city divided. In June 1967,as a result of the 6 day war, the western sector of Jerusalem became united with it's eastern section. Thus now, JERUSALEM WAS COMPLETELY UNITED. (btw, The Old City, up until 1948, had been annexed by Jordan, and ruled from its capital, Amman. That is why in the heart of the old part of Jerusalem stands the Muslim dome of the rock)

So in 1967 and 1968, there again was another Tetrad of lunar eclipses on Passover and Succot, Passover and Succot.

The lunar tetrads appear to be signs that Israel was/is in danger but God always has come through for her.

So now that Israel is established as a nation and Jerusalem as her capital what would be the purpose of another Tetrad in 2014/2015???

So to the question, IF INDEED, the Tetrad lunar eclipses are a sign for Israel and they appeared when Israel became a nation and again when all of Jerusalem was established officially as her capital, what is next for Israel??

I THINK...it's the Tribulation period to get her to pay attention JESUS CHRIST, YESHUAH HA MESHIAH, is indeed the KING OF THE JEWS. For 7 yrs, God is going to get Israel's undivided attention. And at the end of the day, YESHUAH, THE KING OF kings and LORD of lords will appear for every eye to see HIM at the battle of Armageddon.

THAT is what I THINK is the purpose of this final tetrad. I THINK the tribulation period is very soon in coming for this world. I BELIEVE per GOD's WORD, the Bride, the BLOOD WASHED SAINTS will not suffer the things that will be during the Tribulation. I ALSO THINK, if INDEED THE TRIBULATION IS VERY, VERY SOON IN COMING, then the THOUSAND YEAR REIGN is also soon in coming...

Right now Russia is in Syria as is Iran and according to the DEBKA files:
Russia’s military intervention in Syria has expanded radically in two directions. debkafile’s military and intelligence sources report that China sent word to Moscow Friday, Oct. 2, that J-15 fighter bombers would shortly join the Russian air campaign that was launched Wednesday, Sept. 30.

Eventually, they are all going to gather against Israel. [/B]AND btw. According to the NASA website, there will not be another TETRAD that falls on those feast days for another 500 yrs. (Hmm... seems to me that would be well into the thousand year reign.)

(Harold, buddy, spare me the false jews schpeel. I AM aware of the false Jews etc....) But I am sharing what God has showed me and many, many others.

WOW! Carol! You blow my mind!!!!

Originally Posted by CMW

One last comment before I sign off......
While we are exhorted to search the scriptures and study, we are also told in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”

Can you imagine the scoffers that came after the first generation of the followers of The Way passed on? That was prolly the first "Great Disappointment." Is pointing that out considered scoffing?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

If Revelation has it, the Big Picture is not all pretty. Lots of people will give their lives for the sake of the New Heaven and New Earth (New Heaven!!!), and many will suffer for ever and ever ... even for, apparently, not watching.

As I see it, in several years Cahn will be off on his own private island (arriving on a private runway with his own private plane and entourage) sitting with friends and family sipping on his beverage of choice. He will continue to give interviews and send messages out to the faithful who will still believe what he has to say. These type of individuals have been around every generation taking advantage of gullible individuals willing to "buy" into their 'revelations". In time we'll find out if Cahn is for real and if he is giving everyone a "Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to us". Of course, it won't be in our lifetime.

In WWII 60 million people died or about 3% of the estimated population of the world. In today's world 3% of the estimated population would equal over 200 million people who would die to match WWII's deaths. That would still leave us with well over 6 billion people. What catastrophic event other than a large meteorite hitting the earth could doom the earth?

I would like to make a suggestion---rather than quoting the doom and gloom of Revelation and people like Cahn wouldn't it just be great if we tried our best as Christians to spread the message of Jesus which is peace and to improve the earth and the people who live on it and solve the problems we face today. I know, in the end everyone who qualifies will be living in a new heaven and a new earth and so this earth doesn't matter. Oh well, it was just a suggestion.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Dave

As I see it, in several years Cahn will be off on his own private island (arriving on a private runway with his own private plane and entourage) sitting with friends and family sipping on his beverage of choice. He will continue to give interviews and send messages out to the faithful who will still believe what he has to say. These type of individuals have been around every generation taking advantage of gullible individuals willing to "buy" into their 'revelations". In time we'll find out if Cahn is for real and if he is giving everyone a "Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to us". Of course, it won't be in our lifetime.

In WWII 60 million people died or about 3% of the estimated population of the world. In today's world 3% of the estimated population would equal over 200 million people who would die to match WWII's deaths. That would still leave us with well over 6 billion people. What catastrophic event other than a large meteorite hitting the earth could doom the earth?

I would like to make a suggestion---rather than quoting the doom and gloom of Revelation and people like Cahn wouldn't it just be great if we tried our best as Christians to spread the message of Jesus which is peace and to improve the earth and the people who live on it and solve the problems we face today. I know, in the end everyone who qualifies will be living in a new heaven and a new earth and so this earth doesn't matter. Oh well, it was just a suggestion.

I heard a profound (to me) thing from my simple pastor in my simple community church. "When Jesus returns wouldn't it be better if he finds us "manning our post" helping the pour, healing the sick preaching and living the gospel, loving one another, serving one another, than Him finding us hiding in our underground bunker in Arkansas, surrounded by our gold, dried food, weapons and ammo stores?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I heard a profound (to me) thing from my simple pastor in my simple community church. "When Jesus returns wouldn't it be better if he finds us "manning our post" helping the pour, healing the sick preaching and living the gospel, loving one another, serving one another, than Him finding us hiding in our underground bunker in Arkansas, surrounded by our gold, dried food, weapons and ammo stores?"

How will we be able to help the poor, serve one another, or feed our neighbors if we have not prepared by storing up some food, water, and money?

It seems to me that those who do nothing to prepare will be the first ones with their hands out, knocking down your doors, looting your supplies, and "enjoying" your wife. People like that need to stare down the barrel of a 12ga shotgun!

Just sayin'

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How will we be able to help the poor, serve one another, or feed our neighbors if we have not prepared by storing up some food, water, and money?

It seems to me that those who do nothing to prepare will be the first ones with their hands out, knocking down your doors, looting your supplies, and "enjoying" your wife. People like that need to stare down the barrel of a 12ga shotgun!

Just sayin'

Could be bro Ohio, could be.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How will we be able to help the poor, serve one another, or feed our neighbors if we have not prepared by storing up some food, water, and money?

It seems to me that those who do nothing to prepare will be the first ones with their hands out, knocking down your doors, looting your supplies, and "enjoying" your wife. People like that need to stare down the barrel of a 12ga shotgun!

Just sayin'

Mine are loaded. How 'bout yours?

And by the way. Oct. 7th passed and we're still here. We're just fleas, predicting when the Pit Bull we're on is gonna die. And those bloody moons are very very scary to us little fleas. And fleas like Jonathan Cahn, and eBible Fellowship, are just blowhards.

[Ohio]

I came across this sobering article today ...

Quote:
In front of the United Nations General Assembly, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not only stare for forty seconds into the eyes of the world’s representatives, charging them of having kept silent in the face of Iran’s promise to destroy Israel. Netanyahu also pulled out a book in Farsi (language of Iran). The author is the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and he writes that “within 25 years there will be no more Israel”.

There is a date recurring obsessively in the proclamations of the leaders of the Arab-Islamic world: 2022. It is the year that they have reserved for the end of Israel. “By 2022, possibly earlier, Israel will be destroyed” has just said Hassan Rahimpour Azghadi of Iran’s Supreme Council for the Revolution, the right arm of Khamenei.

A year ago, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad said that the Palestinian Arabs will liberate all of Palestine “within eight years”. So - in 2022. Last May, in an interview on Lebanese channel Nbn TV, the imam of the mosque of Al Quds in Sidon, Maher Hamoud, said that “according to calculations based on the Koran the end of Israel will be in 2022”. Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the founder of Hamas, shared the same vision.

Another Iranian book, published earlier this year and based on the occult sciences, interpretation of the Koran and mathematical calculations, says Israel will be destroyed in 2022.

Recently, the Islamic State published a book stating that “the beginning of the end of Israel will be in 2022”, two years after the fall of Rome, the symbol of Christianity. “In 2022 the fourty years of peace and security of Israel will be over”. The key text of this Islamic hallucination is entitled “The collapse of the Israeli empire in 2022” and is written by a Palestinian Arab scholar, Bassam Nihad Jarrar. The book, published in Arabic in 1990, was translated into English and widely distributed in Malaysia. Since then, it is a bestseller in the Arab-Islamic world.

A date, that of 2022, which has almost become a legend. A Syrian journalist interviewed by the television of the Palestinian Authority said he was aware of a report that the CIA had informed then US president Bill Clinton that Israel would not exist after 2022.


According to Daniel's prophecy, should the last week of years begin very soon, then Armageddon would occur in 2022. Within these past few days, the third intifada may have begun over rumors spread concerning Mooslim holy places in Jerusalem. The US recently did nothing when Coptics were slaughtered in Libya, Yazidis in Iraq, Sunnis in Syria, Ukraine invaded, etc. Iran and Russia watched our inaction in unbelief, and have thus acted aggressively in the vacuum. They know that Israel is now on her own.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

I don't know where to put this thread so I am putting it here with the rest of my testimony, since this is, in some ways, a continuation of it ....

This is not something I can write about well at this time because it is underway and we (my husband and I and some others) are watching and participating as He leads us to do so. He has been appearing in a way that, to me, is close to signs and wonders with respect to several different matters--one of which is Him moving to clear up some things from our LC past.

All this actually started in October 2011. God began moving ahead very specifically and openly, and we followed, for a period of about six months. Then these things stopped and for the next 10 months as God uprooted us out of our old living situation and moved us to our new location. Then, after we were settled, last week, much to our surprise, like the cloud leading the children of Israel in the wilderness, God started moving again, picking up exactly where we left off last year in the previously mentioned matters, almost as if the 10 months in between had just been in a parentheses. Incredibly, some of the things that have happened in these different matters are woven together or maybe I should say have crisscrossed or intersected each other.

Okay, I am sorry that this all sounds kind of mysterious and maybe even like a heavenly 'teaser' but that's the best I can do for now.

I wish I had words that could convey what I am seeing of Him. He is faithful, oh so faithful, and oh so awesome. Observing what has been happening, and through it hearing His speaking from the heavens, I have begun to understand a little more of the fear of the Lord ... it makes me tremble in awe, almost fear, on one hand, while at the same time it causes me to feel secure, knowing how He--the holy, righteous and true One--deeply loves and cares for each and every one of us and always acts for our highest good.

I loved reading this week what Moses said when the cloud went up off of the tabernacle and the children of Israel began to move:

Numbers 10: [35] And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, LORD, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee. [36] And when it rested, he said, Return, O LORD, unto the many thousands of Israel.


After witnessing a few more of what I can only call God's actions this past week, I received a Youtube this morning from a friend. I watched it, and it moved me to the core, as it also did my husband when I showed it to him at breakfast. The end of it brought both of us to tears.

Parallels to what has been happening around us were sounding out to us through the Word that he (a Messianic Jew) spoke ... honestly I have no words.

So, I will just post the link, since my main reason for starting this thread is to share it. This Word was spoken at the Inaugural Day Prayer Breakfast in Washington DC on the day of the Presidential Inauguration.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2H9fniQTY

Thankful Jane

We went around and around, on this thread, about Jonathan Cahn and his blood moon predictions.

I have to point out that the video Jane presented has been pulled. Why? I don't know. But prolly cuz Cahn's predictions failed.

And I hate to tell you : I told you so.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

We went around and around, on this thread, about Jonathan Cahn and his blood moon predictions.

I have to point out that the video Jane presented has been pulled. Why? I don't know. But prolly cuz Cahn's predictions failed.

And I hate to tell you : I told you so.

Awareness,

Rabbi Cahn's stuff is still out there on YouTube . A few got caught up in it.

I remember at the time when the buzz was growing I wondered if there was any significance to it. Ultimately, I decided it fell into the category "here is the Christ, there is the Christ".

We know just before the Lord returns there will be supernatural phenomenon on display. Yet the blood moons were natural phenomenon. We know in the great tribulations calamitous events will occur, but this was not calamitous. We know to look for a change of seasons by the budding of the fig tree, yet He doesn't encourage us to mark our calendars rather just to get ready.

The second coming of Christ will be preceded by events that will make the hair stand up on the back of our necks and so terrifying as the leave little room for doubt about what is happening. Assuming we live through it.

If the blood moons caused some to turn to the Lord then that is a good thing. If some became discouraged because the predictions failed that is a bad thing.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

We went around and around, on this thread, about Jonathan Cahn and his blood moon predictions.

I have to point out that the video Jane presented has been pulled. Why? I don't know. But prolly cuz Cahn's predictions failed.

And I hate to tell you : I told you so.

And now you have proven that what? Jesus is a liar, and will not return to earth?

Christians are all deceived? Waiting in vain with a false hope?

[Nell]

Jonathan Cahn's latest: The Paradigm

In a nutshell:
Pattern ---- Today
Ahab - Bill Clinton
Jezebel - Hillary Clinton
Jehu - Donald Trump
Jehonadab - Mike Pence
Naboth - Clinton scandal/s: Whitewater, etc.
Joram - Barack Obama
Ben-Hadad - Osama Bin Laden
Hazael - Bin Laden’s courier
Elijah/Elisha - Christians today

Before you rush out and buy the book (), do your fact checking in 1&2 Kings and 1&2 Chronicles, but mostly in 1&2 Kings. You should be able to see the pattern based on what you know about these people today in current events, but the details are pretty interesting, too. I had just finished reading 1&2 Kings and Chronicles when this book came out. Quite the "whoa!" factor. It's also all over Youtube.

Cahn's footnotes section is fascinating, maybe more than the book, since he gets a little dramatic in the book and on Youtube interviews.

Nell