Examine Yourselves: Forgiveness or the Repercussions of Unforgiveness

[TLFisher]

"5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. 7 Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved." 2nd Corinthians 13:5-7

Something that was brought out last Saturday morning at the men's breakfast at the church I attend is the matter of forgiveness and unforgiveness.

I considered Mark 11:25-26;

25 Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. 26 [But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]

Whether a member of this forum or just lurking, this applies to each one of us.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

"5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test? 6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. 7 Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved." 2nd Corinthians 13:5-7

Something that was brought out last Saturday morning at the men's breakfast at the church I attend is the matter of forgiveness and unforgiveness.

I considered Mark 11:25-26;

25 Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. 26 [But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]

Whether a member of this forum or just lurking, this applies to each one of us.

Forgiveness is important, it's too easy to overlook it. We need to forgive, and I try to forgive those in the LC who have wronged me. I have a question that might be worthy of discussion. How do you forgive without opening the door to being taken advantage of, or being walked over?

The need for forgiveness arises from being wronged in some way. I can definitely say without a doubt that I feel there are ways in which I was wronged by the LC, and I've seen so many others who have been wronged.

In my LC experience, in those situations where I was wronged, I had no problem forgiving (it might have taken a bit of time), but eventually I moved on - "Forgive and forget" as they would say. That was all good until I once again was wronged in the same way or under similar circumstances. When I consider that kind of situation, the following verses come to mind:
Mathew 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

So it would seem that you just keep forgiving, and that is what the Bible teaches, but that can also open the door to being taken advantage of, or even worse, abusive behavior. So where do you draw the line? I've seen LC saints who would get "offended", leave the LC for a little while, then after a bit of time, they're back in the system, ready to be wronged again. It's a cycle that can repeat itself unless one stands up to it. I almost feel like the LC depends on saints to "forgive and forget" (without making a stand) whenever these types of situations come up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

So it would seem that you just keep forgiving, and that is what the Bible teaches, but that can also open the door to being taken advantage of, or even worse, abusive behavior. So where do you draw the line? I've seen LC saints who would get "offended", leave the LC for a little while, then after a bit of time, they're back in the system, ready to be wronged again. It's a cycle that can repeat itself unless one stands up to it. I almost feel like the LC depends on saints to "forgive and forget" (without making a stand) whenever these types of situations come up.

This is where other verses in the Bible provide balance, e.g. Matthew 18. First go to your brother, if that fails take another with you, then include others in the church. This also serves to vet out frivolous complaints, since others can provide feedback to the offended party. Even more important, this shines a light on abusive behavior since the experience of others can support your claim.

This has nothing to do with having "opinions," or being "rebellious," or other LC accusations designed to keep their people under subjection. Those leaders who love their power more than they love God or their people, will always attempt to use O.T. examples like the "Moses model," claiming leprosy will strike even ones like Meriam for opening her mouth.

I can't say it enough but Moses was never an example of any N.T. minister, apostle, or leader. Moses was only a type of Christ. (Hebrews 3)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I almost feel like the LC depends on saints to "forgive and forget" (without making a stand) whenever these types of situations come up.

As if there's a double-standard relationship between forgiveness/unforgiveness and deputy authority. If one offends deputy authority (elders/co-workers etc) one may be required to come to a certain location and repent for the transgression that may result in the deputy authority forgiving or may choose not to forgive. Just as Freedom brought out in Matthew 18:21-22

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

If a deputy authority happened to offend a brother or sister, it as I quoted from Freedom, "forgive and forget" or "taking the cross" is the expected behavior without any admission of repentance or apology.

[Lisbon]

It seems we never hear teaching about if a brother comes and asks forgiveness at which we are bound to forgive. Does this ever happen in the LC? To my experience, No. Isn't it the truth that when we are offended we are to go to a brother and confront him. Not always an easy task. The LC teaching is that what comes down from Anaheim is taken as words from God

To me actually if this is a wealthy benefactor who cares for all your needs plus spending money, you can take a lot. A good employer who treats you badly sometimes but pays you well, you can accept. But unfortunately the LSM pays you nothing. They just demand. WL just demanded. Israel made it by David, Solomon, but finally when it came to Reaboam, the Lord OKed a revolt. This having to be "one" by the BB's definition is not sustainable. Paul did not put up with James enforcing the Law on the early church. He just went to Jerusalem and made his case and got some relief. Had this been Lee, that would have been the end of Paul and the Twelve would have smeared him from church history.

In the Bible there is no such thing as a Pope, politburo, or the like. It is still hard for me to understand RK's buying into this. I have no trouble understanding BP, RG, MC,and a few others, but for RK to be so devoted with his intelect and learning is a real mystery. It's even harder for me to believe Susan would go along. Many times in the last ten years I have said 'life is strange.'

Lisbon

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

It seems we never hear teaching about if a brother comes and asks forgiveness at which we are bound to forgive. Does this ever happen in the LC? To my experience, No. Isn't it the truth that when we are offended we are to go to a brother and confront him. Not always an easy task. The LC teaching is that what comes down from Anaheim is taken as words from God

In the Bible there is no such thing as a Pope, politburo, or the like. It is still hard for me to understand RK's buying into this. I have no trouble understanding BP, RG, MC,and a few others, but for RK to be so devoted with his intelect and learning is a real mystery. It's even harder for me to believe Susan would go along. Many times in the last ten years I have said 'life is strange.'

Lisbon

In my time as a child, teen, and adult in the local churches, I heard much about God's Economy, Overcoming, and the New Jerusalem. Very little if at all about forgiveness, ramifications of unforgiveness, spiritual responsibility of reconciliation, and love. Given Witness Lee has a short 3 chapter or so book A Word of Love, but in the localities it is simply ministry speak. You were to re-speak the ministry, but not actually do it. Take love as an example, there was memorial services I had attended in 2007 and 2014, Steve Isitt was present both times and I witnessed this brother being shunned by different ones. Brothers may say they love brother Steve, but there was no evidence of even a greeting.

Regarding these current leading ones Lisbon, something has to be said about being supported financially by Living Stream Ministry. Many of these brothers who are and have been, I don't know what they're thinking, their experiences, or what these brothers go through, but from my perspective from afar, it appears their conscience becomes a casualty for the sake of a man's ministry. If one had the integrity to say "enough is enough", where would he go? How would he support his household much like former leading ones had to do?
The basis of the recovery is very much entrenched in "ground of locality" and "deputy authority", these practices resulted in a spiritual stronghold.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

In my time as a child, teen, and adult in the local churches, I heard much about God's Economy, Overcoming, and the New Jerusalem. Very little if at all about forgiveness, ramifications of unforgiveness, spiritual responsibility of reconciliation, and love. Given Witness Lee has a short 3 chapter or so book A Word of Love, but in the localities it is simply ministry speak. You were to re-speak the ministry, but not actually do it. Take love as an example, there was memorial services I had attended in 2007 and 2014, Steve Isitt was present both times and I witnessed this brother being shunned by different ones. Brothers may say they love brother Steve, but there was no evidence of even a greeting.

Regarding these current leading ones Lisbon, something has to be said about being supported financially by Living Stream Ministry. Many of these brothers who are and have been, I don't know what they're thinking, their experiences, or what these brothers go through, but from my perspective from afar, it appears their conscience becomes a casualty for the sake of a man's ministry. If one had the integrity to say "enough is enough", where would he go? How would he support his household much like former leading ones had to do?
The basis of the recovery is very much entrenched in "ground of locality" and "deputy authority", these practices resulted in a spiritual stronghold.

Lee did speak about confession and forgiveness, but those were seen as too “basic” to devote much time to. A concept I’ve come across in the LC is that those topic are things you teach to new believers. I don’t think that there ever any intention to not practice forgiveness, but maybe after a bit of time, everyone just started operating under the assumption that forgivingness goes without saying in the LC. In other words, if there was any offense that came up, the situation would resolve itself.

After repeating enough LSM material, a disconnect develops between the words on paper and actually putting it into practice. One opportunity for Lee to put his own teachings into practice would have been to confess to the saints after the Daystar failure that he messed up big time. He could have then asked for everyone’s forgiveness. Instead, he made a totally off-the-wall statement about how the saints had “lost their virginity”. It was through statements like these that a precedent was set.

Without a doubt, LC leadership holds themselves to a completely different standard than their subordinates. This not only results in an environment where confession and forgiveness are one sided, but the fundamental meaning of these things becomes skewed. Forgiveness has become something to the effect of bending over backwards when leadership meddles in something. Forgiveness has also become synonymous with the expectation that saints will turn a blind eye. It is no wonder that there are so many in the LC who are utterly confused.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Lee did speak about confession and forgiveness, but those were seen as too “basic” to devote much time to. A concept I’ve come across in the LC is that those topic are things you teach to new believers. I don’t think that there ever any intention to not practice forgiveness, but maybe after a bit of time, everyone just started operating under the assumption that forgivingness goes without saying in the LC. In other words, if there was any offense that came up, the situation would resolve itself.

That's where the saying "don't make an issue of persons, matters, or things" comes up. Don't make an issue, the situation would resolve itself. Meaning give it enough time and people will forget.
Talking about it being too basic. Well, when the focus in the recovery is to be filled up with knowledge, the yeah. It would be too basic.

[TLFisher]

5 But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree—in order not to say too much—to all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, 7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
2 Corinthians 2:5-11

The following commentary on the preceding verses comes from Matthew Henry.

https://www.biblegateway.com/resourc....2.5-2Cor.2.11

In these verses the apostle treats concerning the incestuous person who had been excommunicated, which seems to be one principal cause of his writing this epistle. Here observe, 1. He tells them that the crime of that person had grieved him in part; and that he was grieved also with a part of them, who, notwithstanding this scandal had been found among them, were puffed up and had not mourned, 1 Cor. 5:2. However, he was unwilling to lay too heavy a charge upon the whole church, especially seeing they had cleared themselves in that matter by observing the directions he had formerly given them. 2. He tells them that the punishment which had been inflicted upon this offender was sufficient, 2 Cor. 2:6. The desired effect was obtained, for the man was humbled, and they had shown the proof of their obedience to his directions. 3. He therefore directs them, with all speed, to restore the excommunicated person, or to receive him again to their communion, 2 Cor. 2:7, 8. This is expressed several ways. He beseeches them to forgive him, that is, to release him from church-censures, for they could not remit the guilt or offence against God; and also to comfort him, for in many cases the comfort of penitents depends upon their reconciliation not only with God, but with men also, whom they have scandalized or injured. They must also confirm their love to him; that is, they should show that their reproofs and censures proceeded from love to his person, as well as hatred to his sin, and that their design was to reform, not to ruin him. Or thus: If his fall had weakened their love to him, that they could not take such satisfaction in him as formerly; yet, now that he was recovered by repentance, they must renew and confirm their love to him. 4. He uses several weighty arguments to persuade them to do thus, as, (1.) The case of the penitent called for this; for he was in danger of being swallowed up with over-much sorrow, 2 Cor. 2:7. He was so sensible of this fault, and so much afflicted under his punishment, that he was in danger of falling into despair. When sorrow is excessive it does hurt; and even sorrow for sin is too great when it unfits for other duties, and drives men to despair. (2.) They had shown obedience to his directions in passing a censure upon the offender and now he would have them comply with his desire to restore him, 2 Cor. 2:9. (3.) He mentions his readiness to forgive this penitent, and concur with them in this matter. “To whom you forgive I forgive also, 2 Cor. 2:10. I will readily concur with you in forgiving him.” And this he would do for their sakes, for love to them and for their advantage; and for Christ’s sake, or in his name, as his apostle, and in conformity to his doctrine and example, which are so full of kindness and tender mercy towards all those who truly repent. (4.) He gives another weighty reason (2 Cor. 2:11): Lest Satan get an advantage against us. Not only was there danger lest Satan should get an advantage against the penitent, by driving him to despair; but against the churches also, and the apostles or ministers of Christ, by representing them as too rigid and severe, and so frightening people from coming among them. In this, as in other things, wisdom is profitable to direct, so to manage according as the case may be that the ministry may not be blamed, for indulging sin on the one hand, or for too great severity towards sinners on the other hand. Note, Satan is a subtle enemy, and uses many stratagems to deceive us; and we should not be ignorant of his devices: he is also a watchful adversary, ready to take all advantages against us, and we should be very cautious lest we give him any occasion so to do.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Terry

. . . when the focus in the recovery is to be filled up with knowledge . . . .

Not on topic, but does it bother anyone that we were supposed to have all the best knowledge?

And arrive at it by checking our minds at the door?

To constantly tell each other to get out of our minds, and that knowledge kills?

But claim to have more? And it was better?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Lee did speak about confession and forgiveness, but those were seen as too “basic” to devote much time to.

Lee definitely emphasized forgiveness, and looking back, it was entirely self-serving. He stressed to others about forgiving and forgeting, talking about the "fox tail" which surfaces concerning offenses, which would prove that we have completely forgiven the offender by wiping our memory clean of the offense.

It was commanded that we forgive, but why did Lee never forgive others. Neither did he ever repent for what he had done to hurt others. In all honesty, even genuine forgiveness does not demand complete forgetfulness. Somethings we may never forget, but we still have decided to forgive, and are genuinely released from that offense.

If forgiveness demanded forgetting, then why are the stories of David's and Peter's failures still recorded for all to read. The failures of the greatest of Israel's kings and the greatest of the N.T. apostles are there for all to read for all time.

[Lisbon]

I know this is likely to be considered escapism but...

Are we really asked to forgive wolves? Are we commanded to forgive all murderers, thieves, popes? The first church I was in after marriage had a pastor who was gay. His son was very angry at the revelation. I knew he was effeminate but never once thought him to be gay. Is his son to go to his father and say my sister I want to let you know that we still love you as our father so be at peace. By the way that isn't what happened.
But isn't that what happened with PL? It would appear GG, EM, MC all apologized for offending PL. Here I almost agree. PL was never in the church there so how could he be put out... Weird!

Didn't The Lord tell Peter that if his brother came to asking forgiveness 490 times he was to forgive. This forgiveness thing is not so simple.
I know I have trouble praying the BBs. I still pray for friends in the LC I used to be with but I am far to small, little, whatever to pray for the whole world.
Lisbon

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Not on topic, but does it bother anyone that we were supposed to have all the best knowledge?

And arrive at it by checking our minds at the door?

To constantly tell each other to get out of our minds, and that knowledge kills?

But claim to have more? And it was better?

Yeah. Turn off your minds or no more high peaks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I know this is likely to be considered escapism but...

Are we really asked to forgive wolves?

The best thing we can do for ourselves is to forgive those who have hurt us. Holding in the anger and bitterness does us more damage than not. People need to realize that they are doing themselves a favor by forgiving others. Forgiveness is not a feeling, it is a decision we make.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee definitely emphasized forgiveness, and looking back, it was entirely self-serving. He stressed to others about forgiving and forgeting, talking about the "fox tail" which surfaces concerning offenses, which would prove that we have completely forgiven the offender by wiping our memory clean of the offense.

It was commanded that we forgive, but why did Lee never forgive others. Neither did he ever repent for what he had done to hurt others. In all honesty, even genuine forgiveness does not demand complete forgetfulness. Somethings we may never forget, but we still have decided to forgive, and are genuinely released from that offense.

If forgiveness demanded forgetting, then why are the stories of David's and Peter's failures still recorded for all to read. The failures of the greatest of Israel's kings and the greatest of the N.T. apostles are there for all to read for all time.

I always operated under the assumption that everyone in the LC was taking care of forgiving one another. Probably most at least tried to, but in relation to elders and different leaders, I've seen a number of situations where it was abundantly clear that were some unresolved problems. In the LC I'm from, I've seen several leave and start meeting with a different LC just because they couldn't work through a disagreement with a certain elder.

It is especially difficult to forgive if there has not been at least some form of repentance on the part of the person who has offended others. In the late 80's when Lee's out of control son was in the midst of his shenanigans, I'm sure there were quite a number who were waiting to see when Lee would attempt to make the situation right by repenting/apologizing for what had happened. When that didn't happen, meetings erupted into shouting matches. My guess is that many saints felt that they had turned a blind eye one too many times. Without any form of repentance from Lee, the situation quickly eroded.

The way I see it is that there were so many in the LC that were all too happy to forgive, until their willingness to forgive was taken advantage of one too many times. I can't blame those who have walked away from the LC with trouble forgiving. It is a system that takes advantage of one of the basic responsibilities of a Christian. What I have come to realize is that it makes a difference looking at the issue of forgiveness apart from the LC paradigm. Forgiveness is about moving on, and not being stuck with feeling wronged by the LC.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It is especially difficult to forgive if there has not been at least some form of repentance on the part of the person who has offended others. In the late 80's when Lee's out of control son was in the midst of his shenanigans, I'm sure there were quite a number who were waiting to see when Lee would attempt to make the situation right by repenting/apologizing for what had happened.

The thing about forgiveness relating to repentance, while we're alive, there's no statute of limitations.
I do believe many current and former lc brothers and sisters would be very forgiving if there was repentance by leading coworkers for their role in covering over the shenanigans of "Lee's out of control son".
Speaking for myself, even if there is no repentance by the leading coworkers, I still forgive them.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Lee did speak about confession and forgiveness, but those were seen as too “basic” to devote much time to. A concept I’ve come across in the LC is that those topic are things you teach to new believers.

Back in the mid-90's while I was still meeting with Bellevue, the localities leading elder Sherman Robertson nearly opted for the locality to take the Life Messages series in lieu of HWFMR. Back then and even now, within the context of LSM publications, I felt those books were more profitable over what one would find in any given HWFMR.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

The thing about forgiveness relating to repentance, while we're alive, there's no statute of limitations.
I do believe many current and former lc brothers and sisters would be very forgiving if there was repentance by leading coworkers for their role in covering over the shenanigans of "Lee's out of control son".
Speaking for myself, even if there is no repentance by the leading coworkers, I still forgive them.

Related to the environment of the LC itself, if it is to ever be a healthy environment (which I don't believe will ever happen), there has to be some form of repentance. Not just for the things that happened decades ago, but for the continual abuses that happen, for leading everyone away from the Bible to the ministry, and for allowing an environment in which people don't feel free to speak up or stand up for themselves.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Related to the environment of the LC itself, if it is to ever be a healthy environment (which I don't believe will ever happen) . . .

Healthy environment? Almost makes me laugh.

I remember eating well in the LC. And I had no problem keeping hydrated. That level of health didn't seem to be a problem.

And during my early days, during my blind love days, my mind was at ease and my nervous system was peaceful and copacetic.

But as time went on, and I discovered some major hypocrisies out of Lee, discordance began to set in. And the more disharmony the more work it became to live the local church life.

And that rattled my mind and nervous system to the point it became unhealthy. I was actually going around with a constant knot in my stomach.

The breaking point for me was when Lee started making highfalutin claims about himself, like, he was the one and only apostle, oracle, and authority on the earth. By that time, because of discovering Lee's hypocrisies, I didn't have the trust required to believe such highfalutin claims.

But I have to say, the time during and after leaving the LC was very hard and nerve racking. I felt I was leaving what had become a unhealthy environment for an even more unhealthy situation.

But that only lasted a few years. Then I went on to find lots more unhealthy things and situations.

But I've always been happy that I left the local church. I've said it more than once, and to different ears, at different times, that, no matter how bad life can get it could always be worse: I could still be in the local church.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Terry

Not only was there danger lest Satan should get an advantage against the penitent, by driving him to despair; but against the churches also, and the apostles or ministers of Christ, by representing them as too rigid and severe, and so frightening people from coming among them.

This applies appropriately to some leaders in the local churches does it not? Brothers only receive one side of any given conflict to be heard and render judgment without considering the other side of the story. Because the brothers not only come across as "too ridged and severe", but also close-minded, thus brothers and sisters see it pointless trying to open up the brothers' heart and are fearful of themselves being put out of the church.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I know this is likely to be considered escapism but...

Are we really asked to forgive wolves? Are we commanded to forgive all murderers, thieves, popes? The first church I was in after marriage had a pastor who was gay. His son was very angry at the revelation. I knew he was effeminate but never once thought him to be gay. Is his son to go to his father and say my sister I want to let you know that we still love you as our father so be at peace. By the way that isn't what happened.
But isn't that what happened with PL? It would appear GG, EM, MC all apologized for offending PL. Here I almost agree. PL was never in the church there so how could he be put out... Weird!

Didn't The Lord tell Peter that if his brother came to asking forgiveness 490 times he was to forgive. This forgiveness thing is not so simple.
I know I have trouble praying the BBs. I still pray for friends in the LC I used to be with but I am far to small, little, whatever to pray for the whole world.
Lisbon

Actually, forgiveness does not let them off the hook. It actually releases the one doing the forgiving from the residuals of anger and even hatred that can fester. Forgiveness is, among other things, the willingness to give the right to punish back to God.

And forgiveness, despite Lee's stories about forgetting, is not forgetting. It is to release the anger and the hurt. But it does not mean that you have to just let them do it all over again. Someone who has continually hurt you should be forgiven. But you do not have the obligation to let them near enough to you to do it again. It is a tricky thing. And not simple. We often talk about it like it is simple. But to forgive yet put barriers between us may be just exactly what is required.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Actually, forgiveness does not let them off the hook. It actually releases the one doing the forgiving from the residuals of anger and even hatred that can fester. Forgiveness is, among other things, the willingness to give the right to punish back to God.

And forgiveness, despite Lee's stories about forgetting, is not forgetting. It is to release the anger and the hurt. But it does not mean that you have to just let them do it all over again. Someone who has continually hurt you should be forgiven. But you do not have the obligation to let them near enough to you to do it again. It is a tricky thing. And not simple. We often talk about it like it is simple. But to forgive yet put barriers between us may be just exactly what is required.

My name is Ohio, and I approve this message.