Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation?

bearbear · 12-17-2013, 03:53 PM

Hi All,

I'm an ex-LRC member who was in the LCs for over 20 years and did an extensive re-study of what the bible teaches concerning grace and salvation after I left. Frankly, I'm scared for the salvation of many in the LRC as well as for ex-members. Witness Lee taught that after a simple confession of belief in the Lord, you are saved forever via judicial redemption. I contend that the bible teaches that mere belief without repentance will likely land you in either hell or outer darkness for eternity after you die and not just for a thousand years during the millennial reign. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear we only have once chance to repent and it's only in this life, not in outer darkness! I've written a lot along this regard and I wanted to share my articles with you for those of you who are wondering if the bible really teaches eternal security:

http://eternityinourheart.com/osas/

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...epentance.html

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-believer.html

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-if-jesus.html

Here's a near death experience of a christian who nearly died while gambling in a casino. He ended up in outer darkness and the only thing he could do was gnash his teeth. God told him it was his eternity and not a thousand years!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6va_...iVyV7g&index=4

Here's an NDE of a pastor who died but didn't forgive his wife. He nearly ended up in hell because God told him he couldn't expect to sow unforgiveness and reap forgiveness from God!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7mt...iVyV7g&index=5

there's many more that I've posted on my website:
http://eternityinourheart.com

Also here are some verses I'd like to share right now. Read them and ask God if the bible really teaches soul versus spirit salvation or if outer darkness is only for a thousand years.

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Does the bible teach once saved always saved? You be the judge.
Jesus taught that man should not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4). The apostle Paul says in Acts 20:27 that he did not shrink back from preaching the whole counsel of God. It's important to hear God's word in its entirety. Many of the promises in the bible that once saved always saved (OSAS) teachers rely on are interpreted out of context and have not been balanced with verses that clearly show how our own free will can prevent God's work of salvation in us.

Below are verses proponents of OSAS either ignore or explain away with elaborate theology and eisigesis. Jesus teaches us to be as wise as serpents but innocent as doves for good reason (Matthew 10:16). Paul warned Timothy that in the last days many would not endure sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3). Jesus also warned many false teachers would come in his name and decieve many (Matthew 24:11).

Ask Father God, who Jesus says is our one and only Teacher (Matthew 23:8) and the Holy Spirit whom he sent, to reveal the truth to you (John 16:12). Jesus promises eternal life to the sheep who hear his voice and follow him in John 10. This promise only applies to those who can hear his voice above all the other 'christian' voices, teachers, books and commentaries in the world.

If you were taught free grace theology in church, remember that the bible likens the word of God to a two-edged sword that is able to cut through the heart (Hebrews 4:12). This cutting can be painful because the word of God is powerful in its own right even without interpretation but it's what we need to stay on the narrow path which leads to life when we go astray (Matthew 7, John 15).

In Hosea 4:6 God tells Israel "My people are destroyed because they do not know me" because the Israelites thought they could worship foreign gods and still be okay with Jehovah. Perhaps this applies well to many Christians today who believe they can give their hearts to the world and still stand right before God.

Verses below are taken from the English Standard Version unless otherwise specified.

Holiness is required

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5
But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Obedience is required

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Perseverance is required

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

If it would have better for them not to have received the gospel, they are probably not ending up in heaven!

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Ezekiel 18:24
But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Living by the Holy Spirit is required

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Romans 8:1 (KJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Galatians 6:8
The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Forgiving everyone is required

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:25
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Colossians 3:13
Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

Not loving the world is required

James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Luke 14:34-35
Salt is good, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is of no use either for the soil or for the manure pile. It is thrown away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 6:24
No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Taking the cross is required

Galatians 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Deducing by the logic of if A => B, then not B => not A, we can infer that those who have not "crucified the flesh" do not belong to Christ Jesus.
Luke 17:33
Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.

Matthew 10:38
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Believing in vain is possible

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Luke 12:46 (NIV)
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

The Greek word rendered 'unbelievers' is apistoj. Some translations say unfaithful however apistoj unequivocally means heathen or unbeliever (see here). He was once a servant of the Lord but he meets the same fate as those who never even acknowledged the Lord.

Matthew 13:20-21
As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Galatians 5:1-2
For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.

Philippians 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
What does Paul mean by "I did not run in vain or labor in vain"? Perhaps it was because he was worried many in the churches would forfeit their salvation!

Genuine repentance is required

Matthew 3:7-9
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 26:19-21
“Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

Luke 13:3
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Ezekiel 18:21-23
“But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Few are saved

Luke 13:24
Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

1 Peter 4:18
And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

Your name can be removed from the book of life

Psalms 69:27-28
Add iniquity unto their iniquity; And let them not come into thy righteousness, Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.

Exodus 32:33
And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life.

Revelation 3:5
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We overcome by our faith which is exhibited by faithfulness.

Deducing the opposite: If you believe but don't overcome, the implication is your name can be blotted out of the book of life.
Avoid these at all costs

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.

Revelation 14:9-11
And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Sound impossible? We can't do it alone!
The disciples once asked Jesus "Who then can be saved?" (Luke 18:26) because the standard that Jesus set in his preaching made salvation seem impossible. Coming to know that we can't save ourselves is a good thing. We are utterly dependent on God for our salvation. In fact the Hebrew name for Jesus, Yeshua means God is our salvation! The only thing God requires is that we make the choice from our heart to turn away from all the idols of the world and the desires of our flesh unto Him. Psalms 37:4 says that God will give us the desires of our heart, so if we desire God, we will obtain him. He is a God that respects our free will and is faithful to work out our salvation for us and through us after we choose Him over everything else. He does this by making his home in our heart through the Holy Spirit when we obey God and love him with all of our heart (John 14:23)

Mark 9:24-25
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”. And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

The father makes the choice from his heart to believe. But he realizes as hard as he wants to believe, his faith is still lacking and he is utterly dependent on God's grace to help him. Jesus faithfully responds to the desire from his heart by casting out the unclean spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:16
But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

John 15:5
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

We are saved by God living through us which happens when we love God and obey His word (John 14:23). If you follow the first commandment by loving the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind (Luke 10:27), you will be able to overcome because everything else will follow through Christ living in you (Colossians 1:27).
What about the verses that guarantee salvation?
1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Many point to this verse as a guarantee of salvation even for those who are living in sin such as this Corinthian believer who had relations with his step-mother. However, when this verse is read carefully we realize that it's not a guarantee but a warning! Using straightforward deduction, if the Corinthians do not abide by Paul's instruction here, this believer's spirit may not be saved. Paul is telling the Corinthians to excommunicate this sinner and let the world have it's way with him so he will be brought to repentance, in the same way that the prodigal son came to repent in Luke 15.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This verse isn't a promise of salvation as much as it is an expression of God's love. The Greek grammar the apostle John used for the verb believe is in the present continuous tense. Read in English, it deceptively appears as if christians need only believe once when it should be read "continually believe".

The Greek verb translated to "should" for the phrase "should not perish" in the ESV and KJV is often rendered as "would" or "shall" in other translations such as NIV. "should" implies probability and necessity whereas "would" and "shall" are guarantees. Which one is the correct translation? Dr. Marion, a scholar in Greek languages gives a thorough argument why the correct translation is "should" here:

"Should" is frequently a part of the translation of the tense of the verb mello which means to be about to do something. The uses of should and would correspond to those of shall and will. In our text the word "should" is in the subjunctive mood which expresses doubt or a wish or condition contrary to fact. Examples: "I wish I were a lawyer," or, "If I were you, I should go." Moreover, in John 3:16 Jesus used the word "not" which negates the force of "should." The original reads: me apoletai alla - me apoletai alla, (rendered "should not perish," KJV). In the Greek this phrase is second aorist, middle subjective, intransitive, of apollumi, meaning to destroy. Hence the believer should not be destroyed, but have life eternal, the exact opposite of what will happen to the unbeliever.

Earlier we saw that the verb "should" conveys a doubt, a wish or condition contrary to fact, Thus in John 3:16, the believer may or may not exercise his right as a believer. He has a choice to believe and obey the gospel or else to simply acknowledge the Lord (believe in Him as a person) and die lost. (Acts 26:27; James 2:19; John 12:42; cf. John 1:11-12; 20:31).

1 Corinthians 3:15
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Many also point to this verse as a guarantee of salvation. Catholics and kingdom exclusion teachers such as Watchman Nee and southern Baptists use this verse to support their doctrine of purgatory or a temporary period of discipline in outer darkness for unfaithful believers.

We agree this verse confirms that we are saved by grace and not works. Paul is trying to convey that if someone has truly repented but has no good works he will still be saved. One example is the thief on the cross next to Jesus in Luke 23:43. Because of this believer's sinful past, God must burn up his works so that he can forget them. This verse isn't saying the believer will be burned, but that the works are so that he may be saved.

Perhaps knowing that many would twist this concession to mean more than it should, Paul proceeds to warn in the next verses "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (KJV)" so that believers would understand that salvation still requires holiness. If we say we believe but don't repent and instead defile our hearts through practicing sin, God will still cast us into hell.

The concept of purgatorial suffering in outer darkness preceding entrance into the kingdom of heaven simply isn't found in the bible. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear that our only chance to repent is in this life and not after we die. Outer darkness rather than being temporary is for eternity given the finality of the Lord's words in Matthew 7 and echoed again in Luke 13 "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you!". We only have one shot and it's in this life!

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a wonderful promise God gives us that we should all hold on to. However this verse poignantly leaves out 'us' or own free will. Nothing can separate us from the love of God except ourselves! Read in context of the passage, Paul is saying don't relate the circumstances around you to God's love. We may be in the worst tribulation or calamity, but God is always there with us as he was with Job, even when we don't see him or sense him.
John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Again, a wonderful promise. No one will snatch us away. However nothing in this verse indicates that God will stop us from jumping out of His hand. But even if we do jump out of the Father's hand, God as our good Shepherd is faithful to search us out and return us to the fold (Matthew 18). But it's up to us to hear his voice and follow him back. Unlike demons who inhabit people against their will, God will never violate our free will by forcing himself on us, yet He is faithful even when we are unfaithful (2 Timothy 2:13). OSAS may not be biblical, but God is still abounding in grace and mercy giving us far more than we deserve.

OBW · 12-17-2013, 04:10 PM

I believe that "once saved always saved" is an overly simplistic slogan that does not properly reflect some portions of the scripture that we read. It has even been said that Calvin (the alleged source of Calvinism, the original OSAS doctrine) did not believe what is taught officially as Calvinism.

When I look at the official doctrine of Calvinism, then at the official doctrine of Arminianism, I see issues with both. Yet I find truth in both. Neither is total right or totally wrong.

I think that, to some degree, the problem lies in the use of the word "saved." In scripture, it refers to something that happens when you "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," and it also refers to something that you must spend your entire life endeavoring to work out with fear and trembling. And that latter version is not just "by grace alone." It requires work over the remainder of our lives. It requires a sober mind that is diligent and a will to go with it.

Sometimes I wish I had at least one of those.

So there may be some real serious theology buffs that may want to take this on. But suffice it to say that I find little cause to completely buy the teaching, but also no reason to simply reject it. The fortune-cookie approach to Bible exposition is what got us the competing doctrines in the first place, along with others like "trinity." I like that one, but I doubt that it is really that important to put so much thought into it or fight about nuanced versions of it. (Not even sure that Modalists are truly heretics that believe in a different Jesus.)

bearbear · 12-17-2013, 04:18 PM

Hi OBW,

I actually don't have problems with Calvinism especially when it's not used as a license to sin. For example, John Piper, a well known staunch Calvinist believes anyone practicing sin (not just sinning by accident or stumbling into sin, but addictions) per Galatians 5:19-21 without repentance was never saved to begin with even if they call themselves a Christian. This includes people who divorced and remarried on grounds other than sexual immorality and men who are regularly looking at porn.

I believe Witness Lee's version of grace is dangerous because he teaches that only mere calling on the Lord is necessary for salvation. Repentance (or metanoia a change of mind / turning from practice of sin) is never taught in the LRC and confession of sins is taught as only necessary to clear our conscience with God. I wouldn't call LRC's version of grace standard calvinism, it's more like free-grace or hyper grace also similarly taught by other Christians from extreme dispensationalist backgrounds.

That said, here's my take on faith and works from my website:

Faith, Works and Weddings
Another way to look at faith versus works is through the lens of what happens before a wedding. In the New Testament, the church is referred to as the bride of Jesus who is our bridegroom (Eph. 5:25-27). Jesus often related to his followers in the context of a traditional Jewish wedding, where the bridegroom had to purchase the bride with a price or the mohar. He accomplished this by paying the bride price for our salvation with his life thereby granting us a gift we did not deserve (Romans 6:23). This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said we're not saved by works because there is nothing we can add to pay for the mohar. The debt has already been paid, it is finished (John 19:30). We now belong to him and are set apart for his return (1 Cor 6:20). However, before the bridegroom Jesus comes to receive us, the bride is expected to remain faithful to the bridegroom (Matthew 25:11-13). We can do this by giving our heart fully to Jesus which results in a life of obedience (John 14:23).

Persisting in faithfuness is important. After the bridegroom pays the bride price to fulfill the marriage covenant or the ketubah, the bride and groom would drink a cup of wine to seal their covenant. The bridegroom would then depart for his father's house to prepare a room for the bride; as Jesus described he would do in John 14:3. After they were apart, the bride and groom would continue to drink a cup of wine regularly in remembrance of their faithfulness to each other. So when we take communion, it's a statement not just of remembrance, but of our promised faithfulness to Jesus our bridegroom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I believe that "once saved always saved" is an overly simplistic slogan that does not properly reflect some portions of the scripture that we read. It has even been said that Calvin (the alleged source of Calvinism, the original OSAS doctrine) did not believe what is taught officially as Calvinism.

When I look at the official doctrine of Calvinism, then at the official doctrine of Arminianism, I see issues with both. Yet I find truth in both. Neither is total right or totally wrong.

I think that, to some degree, the problem lies in the use of the word "saved." In scripture, it refers to something that happens when you "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," and it also refers to something that you must spend your entire life endeavoring to work out with fear and trembling. And that latter version is not just "by grace alone." It requires work over the remainder of our lives. It requires a sober mind that is diligent and a will to go with it.

Sometimes I wish I had at least one of those.

So there may be some real serious theology buffs that may want to take this on. But suffice it to say that I find little cause to completely buy the teaching, but also no reason to simply reject it. The fortune-cookie approach to Bible exposition is what got us the competing doctrines in the first place, along with others like "trinity." I like that one, but I doubt that it is really that important to put so much thought into it or fight about nuanced versions of it. (Not even sure that Modalists are truly heretics that believe in a different Jesus.)

countmeworthy · 12-18-2013, 11:40 AM

I have always had difficulty understanding 'taking up the cross'. Funny, I was just talking to a brother yesterday about that very thing ! LOL.

So yes. Repentence & the cross (The Blood of Jesus) is necessary for Salvation. To be sure, I totally understand Galations 2:20...and there it mentions being crucified with Christ.

Salvation I have discovered is a process. There is eternal salvation & then our daily salvation.

A broken & a contrite heart God will not despise.

With certainty, every person who is born again has repented. If he has not how can he/she see desire Christ? Darkness does not want to be in the Light.

But we must repent daily because our minds & hearts are still polluted. As an example. It is easy for people to pray for their loved ones, our country, Israel etc... but try praying for someone who broke your heart or betrayed you when you thought you could trust them. Try praying for an ex spouse who cheated on you, divorced you & left you high & dry...AND they were a 'Christian'. Yeah... not so easy is it?

Though I have not been married... I am speaking from my experience of being betrayed, hurt, abandoned etc... I did not pray for them right away of course but in due time as I grew closer to the Lord, His Spirit told me to pray for them. WHAT ??? NOOOO LORD!!! WHY me ????

But when I obeyed and prayed for them to draw nearer to HIM, to have Mercy on them as He had mercy on me, to forgive them as He forgave me, the hurt, the yoke, the heavy burdened lifted.

Glory to God in the Highest!

OBW · 12-18-2013, 12:33 PM

It does seem interesting that the thread is titled concerning "taking the cross" and "repenting" yet seems to spend the lion's share of the opening dialog talking about Calvinism.

I’m sure that it somewhat changed sooner than I give credit. But when posts are multiple times longer than mine (which are often too long), even I give out. Especially when the topic has the appeal of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I’m not saying that the topic is as frivolous. But for the reasons I included in my first post to this thread, I believe that most of the controversy surrounding the Calvinism/Arminian debate, like many others, is straining gnats. Whatever is true or false in those teachings is what it is. Whether I believe it one way or the other will not change my destiny. If I truly believe in Christ, and follow, it will not matter which I think is correct.

I don't think that a proper Calvinist teaching is sending anyone to hell. I do note that most true Calvinists still join in worship of God on a regular basis. They do not have some kind of "I'm in or out, so who cares what I do" kind of mentality. If that were actually true, then I would have more concern for those who follow such teaching.

On "taking the cross," I'm with CMW. I'm not sure what that means. I realize that there was the imagery of the accused being required to carry their own means of execution. But while I'm sure that the intent was to suggest a significant burden, were the references by Jesus really about heading toward death in that sense (or any sense)? Is it about the "crossing out" of one's self? I believe that there is some truth in that kind of thinking. But I'm not sure that it is at the level that most who talk about it take it. It is not some kind of annihilation of the self. Maybe more like the extremes used when saying you either love God and hate money, or it is the other way around. The point was not hate, it was wrong priorities. But "hate" was the term used for "2nd place."

A little like saying that there is the winner and everyone else is a "looooooseeeeeer." Even the one that gets the silver medal is just a loser.

Now when I read Galatians 2:20, I don't see the same kind of ongoing "cross" that others often speak of. It seems that in this passage Paul is providing facts, or reasons, that they don't need to be turning to the OT ritualistic law (especially of circumcision). They don't need to be circumcised. They have already been crucified. "I have been." Not "I am being" or "I am continually being" crucified. No need to cross out a piece of flesh when your whole being is crucified.

Obviously, this is also not literal, but metaphorical. The crucifixion of Christ did all that was necessary for right standing before God. No more need to mutilate the flesh (with a scalpel, whip, or austere living).

bearbear · 12-18-2013, 01:37 PM

I'm with you OBW, I don't want to get into a discussion of Calvinism either because I don't think it's relevant and didn't mean to bring it up. The reason being again that Witness Lee wasn't a five point Calvinist but a free grace teacher. Calvinism teaches sovereign grace and perseverance of the saints, free grace teaches that our sins are forgiven past present and future and the moral law of the OT has been abolished, sin doesn't matter and we only need to confess it to clear our relationship with God for fellowship. Okay now that's established let's move things back to repentance and taking the cross.

I believe the New Testament clearly teaches in many places that you don't belong to Jesus unless you take the cross, meaning you crucify the desires and passions of your flesh. This is spelled out clearly in Galatians 5:24

And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

And again in Matthew 10:38

And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

The Hebrew name for Jesus is Yeshua which means the Lord is our salvation. If you don't have Jesus, I'm sorry but you don't have salvation!

When the Jews asked Peter how they could be saved after the demonstration of tongues at Pentecost, Peter replied in Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Greek word for repent is metanoia. It means more than just confessing sins, it means having a change of mind-- in other words having your worldview rocked by adopting the mind of Christ.

And Carol was right about daily salvation. The same Apostle Paul who preached that we're saved by grace through faith alone also preached that after we repent, we have to keep our repentance ongoing through works:

Acts 26:19-21
“Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.

How could this be? It's because we're saved by a faith that works. True faith causes us to live in good works. Hebrews 10:38 says the righteous shall live by faith- faith is something we live out and not just hold in our belly.

And not just any faith counts, but faith working through love!

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Now we got that settled, it's clear why all these ugly things happened in the LCs. I believe it's because Witness Lee never crucified the desires of his flesh-- namely the desire to see his sons inherit his kingdom, and the desire to build a worldly corporate enterprise to make money. He was a victim of his own teachings concerning salvation. And we see the fruit of that today looking back at LC history.

But just because Witness Lee stumbled doesn't mean we have to. Mr. Lee is dead, but we're still alive. Life is a gift from God, and we still have the opportunity to repent while we're alive. This includes loving and forgiving those who have hurt us the most, including everyone in the LC system!

You may ask why I'm making such a big issue on grace and salvation. I'll contend that if there's any doctrine you want to get right, this is it! What could be more important than your eternity really?

OBW · 12-19-2013, 05:49 AM

BB,

While I read the passages you do mostly the same, I note that one passage does not a strong proof make. Less strong-appearing actions by a self-proclaimed believer is not evidence of no real salvation.

In fact, while all encouragement to such people (most of us) to do more than rest in their grace-given salvation is typically needed, I think that spending time trying to figure out how most alleged followers are not really believers is contrary to the very mindset that we are called to have concerning others. (Something about loving God and our neighbor)

In fact, I think that the kind of instruction that is found in the older traditions of evangelicalism, and even other, older groups that is more focused on me/us and how we live our lives is much more important than dissecting what might be wrong with the lives of others. I am not dismissing efforts in the gospel to the unsaved, but pointing to the fact that we all need the gospel everyday and we too often are concerned with how to be rid of it for ourselves by having taken the magic pill that gets us beyond sin forever.

Fact is that we will all struggle with sin until we die. The only magic pill to eliminate sin is death. Real, stop breathing and pumping blood death. And while I am not charged to just turn inward and contemplate my own condition, I must always be considering it because it is never cured.

When Paul said what he did in Galatians . . .

Quote:

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

. . . he seems to have repeated, in a sense, the past tense comment about being crucified similar to 2:20. But the thing he says to do now is to "keep in step with the Spirit." Much like he said in Romans 8 where he says to walk according to the Spirit.

Making some harsh thing out of it because of the metaphorical use of crucifixion does not appear to be called for when the current action is something very different from crucifixion. I do agree that we need to be sober and willful about our sins. Any of us who think we did OK yesterday and have no sin are simply delusional.

Since Paul is speaking to ones that he obviously thinks are having trouble, if "taking the cross" is the important thing, then Paul would not have said "I have been crucified" and "have crucified the flesh." He was not declaring the Galatians did not belong to Christ. He was giving them the underpinning for their call to action of keeping in step with the Spirit. If our crucifixion is past tense, then it must be an eternal truth. But the way that it is lived out is not given in the same terms — crucifixion — but in the terms of positive action and will to keep in step with the Spirit.

Paul did not say to crucify anything. He said it was. Why? Because the source of our strength is found in One who was crucified and overcame the resulting death. All of that is found in the Spirit that we are advised to walk according to and keep in step with.

Our Christian life (which should be our whole life) is neither a search for euphoric experiences nor an effort in crucifixion or other ascetic living. Rather, it is in a constant and diligent walk with and according to the Spirit. That is what the Bible says when you back away from dissecting the fortune cookies that were created by printers. The Bible is not a long series of fortune cookies, nor a collection of precious promises. It is a narrative that must be taken in large parts, not in microscopic snippets. The broad narrative looks more like righteous living, love for all those around us, care for the needy, and all with a view to the God that we rely on for our strength to do it. In minutia, we only find doctrines and other things to write books about, fight over, and assent to in our minds. "Yep, I believe that one that way. Put a check mark in the right column!"

Checkmarks in the right column get us nothing. Becoming the bearers of God's image in our lives gets us everything.

OBW · 12-19-2013, 05:53 AM

As for Witness Lee, I am more than willing to accept that he was actually a believer who was caught up in various sins, including pride and arrogance. But while I will do whatever I can to steer people away from his seriously flawed teachings, I expect to see him with all believers after death. Whether he gets to experience the little dark closet that he talked about I cannot say with certainty. But what I read in scripture indicates that there is a reward for the diligent, but eternal life for all who believe.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 06:39 AM

In English, when we say we believe something, it usually means that we acknowledge the existence of something we can't see. When the NT uses the word "belief" it means more than that. The word rendered believe in the New Testament is pisteuo in the Greek, it's actually closer to a conviction or trusting in something that can be so intense that you actually live your life to conform to that belief-- or in other words obedience! I contend that both Jesus and the Apostle John used pisteuo in the NT synonymously with obedience. For example:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Jesus did say whoever *believes in me* will never die in John 11:26, but what did Jesus mean when he said pisteou? Throughout the gospels Jesus stresses not just hearing the word but doing it in obedience.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So we see here that merely acknowledging the Lord is not enough, but we also have to do the will of God in obedience. Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no be no, so if you believe in Jesus make sure you really do! Also if anyone calls Jesus Lord but doesn't actually make him Lord, then they're lying to themselves.

Jesus expressed frustration at this many times in the gospels:

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?"

The Apostle James also warns against hearing God's word but not doing it. He says people who do so deceive themselves! The whole book of James is a huge warning to those who lie to themselves about believing in God when they show that they don't by the fruit they bear.

James 1:22
"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."

Now only God knows someones heart and only he knows where Witness Lee is right now.

If we see Witness Lee in heaven then praise God because that means he truly repented before he passed. I'm personally not so sure about this judging by the fruit he bore towards the end of his ministry, but it's possible his repentance at the end was real- what gives me hesitation is in his letter of repentance, he didn't take full responsibility for the mistakes but always used the word "we" instead of "I". Also in the book of James it says that not many should teach because they'll receive a greater judgment-- think of the people who spiraled into depression, abandoned the faith or committed suicide ending up in hell/outer darkness because of the errors and unscriptural practices in Witness Lee's ministry-- will God really let this go unpunished without repentance? The degree of repentance always has to match the degree of sin (think David and Bathsheba and all that David had to go through). Still who am I to judge someone who already passed, each of us will have to face God in judgment. My aim is to convey the need for repentance.

There's a good reason why Jesus said the road to life is narrow and few find it-- it's not easy to take the cross, it's not easy to repent because it takes humility and letting go of everything you once loved. But it's all within our control because we all have full control of our hearts. I go over this in some detail here:

Http://eternityinourheart.com/heart

Regarding our sin-stained flesh, I agree that the bible doesn't say that we should be without sin. Sinless perfection is a heresy per 1 John 1:8. Every time we stumble in sin, God will still forgive us when we confess it (1 John 1:9) given that we repent.

However we should never let sin control the way we live-- and any Christian who falls into this trap without repentance is in trouble. Paul said in Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions."

If anyone believes God's grace is enough to forgive an unrepentant "Christian" who still lives a life controlled by sin, then you may need to meditate on these verses again and ask God for deliverance.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:3-5
But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

My whole life I lived in addiction and enslavement to sin (pornography and video game addiction). I thought every male looked at porn and could never help it. I thought that I could practice sin and God would forgive me every time I confessed. It was only when God showed me his true grace that I fully repented and asked for the Holy Spirit to come into my life and then I was free. I was deceiving myself the whole time thinking I believed and was saved even though I read the bible, prayed and even served when I was in LRC. My fear is that many in the LRC and ex-members may be in the same situation, believing that they are saved when they're not. There's just too many temptations in this world such that if a church doesn't stress repentance, its members are in big trouble! I think this verse sums it up well:

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

This way is the broad way that leads to destruction Jesus describes in Matthew 7.

But now I really do feel like a Christian! When I look at my former self, I understand what "old man" means not just doctrinally but in reality because I can barely recognize who I once was.

Jesus didn't just die to forgive our sins but to free us from being enslaved to it by the power of his blood.

What frightens me the most is that one day many could be facing the door to eternity in heaven thinking they can enter because they believed but never took care of their addictions and Jesus will have to give them the bad news.

Matthes 7:22-23
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

awareness · 12-19-2013, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

What frightens me the most is that one day many could be facing the door to eternity in heaven thinking they can enter because they believed but never took care of their addictions . . .

Thru Al-Anon I've come into association with Celebrate Recovery (Rick Warren), AA, and NA. They have 12 step programs that work if you really invest in them, and into "A Higher Power."

Cal · 12-19-2013, 07:13 AM

bearbear,

The whole problem with your thesis is that it implies that ultimately salvation is by works, that it is performance that matters.

Theologians have been around and around about this for centuries. Although we should do our own homework, most likely you are not going to improve on the overall consensus, which is this:

Salvation is by faith, not by works. You cannot perform your way into eternal life. Period.

However, true faith is accompanied by works. Just how much is not clear. But just trying to define it implies that you believe works are needed for salvation, which the Bible flatly denies.

But what about James 2:20, you ask. Again theologians have addressed that. The conclusion is James is saying that without works, faith may not be present. He is not saying, without works salvation is not present. Simply put, works do not achieve salvation, they indicate it.

Your formula is: Faith + Works = Salvation.

The actual formula is: Faith = Salvation + Works

It is not that without works you cannot be saved. It is that without works you may not be saved. Note the difference. Again, then the question becomes how much or what quality of works. If you say to the level of obedience then no one is or has ever been saved because we are all disobedient. In the end, we all rely on grace and forgiveness. Our works just cannot be good enough.

The bottom line is if you are saved you will have a heart to please God, and will attempt to. There will be some evidence in your life that you have faith. In other words, you will have "works." Even the backslidden seek to serve God in some manner, even if it's just in trying to be on balance nicer than they might. Are those works "enough?" Enough for what? In any case, it's not for me to say.

Again, no need to reinvent the wheel.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 07:29 AM

To clarify I don't mean works out of self effort which result in self righteousness (think of the Pharisees who sounded a horn when they donated to the temple) but when I say works I mean works done out of faith. And faith only works through God living in us.

Let's revisit Galatians 2:20 because it's such a great verse that I believe sums up the Christian faith in many ways:

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Paul says in Romans 6 to consider ourselves dead to sin but alive in Christ. First we must die to sin as Christ died on the cross, which we do when we repent. Afterwards God comes to live in us through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul says in Phil 1:21 that for me to live is Christ but to die is gain. So when we live by faith we're not doing it by ourselves! We're doing it through Christ living in us! It's not us who is working but Christ who is working through us so we have nothing to boast about.

This is why only faith working through love counts. Because Christ can only operate through us through love:

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

When we love and obey God (by taking the cross/repenting), God comes to live in us:

John 14:26
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

This is why Galatians 5:14 says love fulfills the law! And why Jesus says he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Unlike what free grace teachers insist on, the moral law of the OT still applies- it hasn't been abolished! It's fulfilled by God living in us and by us living according to the Spirit. This was made possible by Christ's death on the cross and ascension which allowed the Holy Spirit to come down (John 16:7). We are no longer under the law but we live it! by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us (1 Cor 6:19).

Jeremiah 31:33
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In the OT, the animals that were sacrificed had to die first before the fire of God could come down to consume it. The Israelites provided the sacrifice but God provided the fire. Where is this fulfilled in the New Testament?

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

In the NT there are two baptisms, one by water unto repentance and another by the Holy Spirit. Before God can come live and operate in us first we must die through repentance (present our bodies as a living sacrifice Rom 12:1), and then be baptized by the Holy Spirit who is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29).

The NT teaches that the Holy Spirit is given to us as a deposit to guarantee our inheritance, in the same way that a engagement ring seals a bride until her wedding day (2 Tim 2:14). I believe after you truly belong to Jesus, he won't lose you!

John 6:39
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day."

But we have to go through the right steps in obedience-- first die to our old man by crucifying the desires of our flesh on the cross, and be made alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

countmeworthy · 12-19-2013, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

As for Witness Lee, I am more than willing to accept that he was actually a believer who was caught up in various sins, including pride and arrogance. But while I will do whatever I can to steer people away from his seriously flawed teachings, I expect to see him with all believers after death. Whether he gets to experience the little dark closet that he talked about I cannot say with certainty. But what I read in scripture indicates that there is a reward for the diligent, but eternal life for all who believe.

Exactly! And if we are to use Lee's teaching on the outer darkness, then he has obtained Eternal Salvation by the Grace of God but will reside in outer darkness for a thousand years.

(This of course is tongue & cheek. I do not adhere to his teaching & view of the outer darkness. Neither am I his Judge...)

Blessings,
Carol

Ohio · 12-19-2013, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

bearbear, The whole problem with your thesis is that it implies that ultimately salvation is by works, that it is performance that matters. Salvation is by faith, not by works. You cannot perform your way into eternal life. Period.

It is not that without works you cannot be saved. It is that without works you may not be saved. Note the difference.

Igzy, great post.

But let's be honest folks.

There are some genuine children of God who never make it past the backslidden stage.

Some who had genuinely believed in the Savior at a young age may not even know they are saved as an adult, nor do they exhibit any interest in God.

Many of God's children have screwed up their whole life, having never manifested a single good work in their lives.

Lot comes to mind, and Peter called him righteous. Imagine that!

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

There are some genuine children of God who never make it past the backslidden stage.

Some who had genuinely believed in the Savior at a young age may not even know they are saved as an adult, nor do they exhibit any interest in God.

You know scripture addresses this directly:

2 Peter 2:20-22

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Does it hurt to read it? Hebrews 4:12 likens God's word to a two-edge sword that can cut through our heart. All scripture is God breathed and profitable for correction! (2 Tim 3:16)

If God's word says it would be better for them to never have believed in the gospel before they abandoned the faith--- do you really think backsliders are entering heaven when they die without repentance? Many who experienced NDEs or visions of hell saw scores of Christians there, and the ones who backslid were in the worst place of hell!

Here's one of them by Mary Baxter: http://www.divinerevelations.info/ma...on_of_hell.htm

I used to read all sorts of scripture like this when I was in LRC thinking I just couldn't understand it - it must be that Witness Lee knew God's word better than me because he read it so many times! But looking back, I was really just mentally blotting out scriptures like this in order for God's word to conform to Witness Lee's extreme-dispensational free grace theology. I think that was a huge reason why everyone runs to the commentaries because if you read the Life Studies everything makes sense in its own little world! but not according to the word of God. Now I'm thankful to God I can just read his word and believe it for what it says.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 09:01 AM

Luke 13:23
Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

And Jesus said to them:

"Relax bro. I'm gonna die for you and all you have do is pray the sinner's prayer and acknowledge me as Lord. How you want to live your life after that is optional."

Oh wait, that's not what he said. Instead he said this:

"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to."

What does Jesus say earlier in Luke 13:3? Did he say:

No, I tell you; but unless you *simply pray the sinner's prayer and acknowledge me with word and not deed*, you will all likewise perish.

Nope, the real verse says:

No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Ohio · 12-19-2013, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

You know scripture addresses this directly:

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

You are assuming too much here.

Some of God's children never even came to know "the way of righteousness," when they happened to believe that God forgave their sins for believing in the death of Jesus.

And you are right -- many nasty things may befall them -- but the Savior has assured us that they will not perish.

BearBear, perhaps you should read some verses about God's loving deliverance by faith, instead of just verses about the responsibilities placed upon the children of God ...

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." -- John 3

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are assuming too much here.

BearBear, perhaps you should read some verses about God's loving deliverance by faith, instead of just verses about the responsibilities placed upon the children of God ...

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." -- John 3

Hi Ohio, I believe I have addressed this in an earlier post. The Greek word pisteou translated into English as believe is different than many read it to be. The way the apostle John uses it is the same as obedience.

He who has ears let him hear. If you're willing to bet your eternity and those of your friends and relatives on free grace theology no one is stopping you. My aim is just to get this truth out to those who've never been exposed to it by living under the LSM umbrella.

Cal · 12-19-2013, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

You know scripture addresses this directly:

2 Peter 2:20-22

For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

I believe the above verse is talking about their experience in this life, not in eternity. A person who knows the way of repentance and then rejects it will be haunted in this life. And because he has rejected the only escape he will have a much harder time finding his way out.

How about these verses, well-known by LCers:

1 Cor 3:13-15

13 It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

If works determine your ultimate salvation, then how can someone's work be burned yet he be saved? Hmmmmm?

bearbear, make no mistake, you are teaching salvation by works. That's your perogative, but at least call it what it is.

countmeworthy · 12-19-2013, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

On "taking the cross," I'm with CMW. I'm not sure what that means. I realize that there was the imagery of the accused being required to carry their own means of execution. But while I'm sure that the intent was to suggest a significant burden, were the references by Jesus really about heading toward death in that sense (or any sense)?

In the last couple of years, I have been reading/studying the scriptures not only as it pertains to me & us Christians. Somewhere along the line, it dawned on me Jesus mostly preached to the Jews (Salvation to everyone who believes..to the Jews first, remember ? Romans 1:16..then to the rest of us.

It only makes sense that was God's plan as Jesus was not born in China or India.

Once I began to see that God through Jesus, His Spirit & even in the epistles He was addressing the JEWS first for they were the first to be converted to Christ, the Holy Spirit began to open the eyes of my understanding of a lot of things spoken of in the scriptures.

So we have the Jews who were adhering to the Law of Moses, the Torah, the Tanach, hearing Jesus tell them to take up their cross. I am sure their reaction was "HUH??? Do What???"

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Is it about the "crossing out" of one's self? I believe that there is some truth in that kind of thinking. But I'm not sure that it is at the level that most who talk about it take it. It is not some kind of annihilation of the self.

It is not the annihilation that the RCC taught & poor Francis of Assisi took that teaching to the extreme. Talk about WORKS ??? ARRGH!!

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Now when I read Galatians 2:20, ...It seems that in this passage Paul is providing facts, or reasons, that they don't need to be turning to the OT ritualistic law (especially of circumcision). They don't need to be circumcised.

Oh this is scary Mike. Not only am I understanding what you are writing but I agree with you.

The Lord Jesus was preparing the Jews to 'take up their cross' by learning to walk in Spirit. Something they had no clue of for He had not even spoken of the Comforter He would be sending on Pentecost.

Bringing it closer to home, I had the darnest time figuring out Galatians 2:20 meant when I was in the LC back in the 70s. Remember, we did not watch TV, listen to the radio, read only newspaper headlines, went to meeting after meeting, called 'on the Lord' repeatedly, perpetually, incessantly, and monotonously. AND we dressed alike.

So what was the need to teach Galatians 2:20? We had left everything far, far behind us.

Finally after I returned to my Heavenly Father with a humble, repentant heart, I began spending a LOT of time praying, reading, studying and getting to KNOW THE LORD in the scriptures and via my walk with Him.

I was not pressured by anyone to seek and know the LORD. Then one day, the Spirit turned the Light switch in me. OH!!! Now I get Galations 2:20. It wass simply spending time, a LOT of time with the Lord letting HIM renew my mind, purifying my thoughts & my heart in Christ Jesus.

I experienced real freedom. If I was listening to oldies but goodies on the radio, while the tune was catchy, the Lord would have me listen closely to the words. Suddenly, I realized the catchy tune with the polluted words were making me sick to my stomach. So I changed stations. Same thing with TV shows. There are some really funny sitcoms but my spirit is weighed down with the immoral but 'funny' storylines.

I am not under 'the law': Do not watch TV. Do not listen to secular music! Nope. But my Love for the Lord and His Word is 'naturally' crucifying the flesh. Simple as that. So it is no longer "I" that lives but Christ Who lives IN me....changing my taste buds to love what He loves & hate what He hates.

Blessings all,
Carol

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 09:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Igzy

I believe the above verse is talking about their experience in this life, not in eternity. A person who knows the way of repentance and then rejects it will be haunted in this life. And because he has rejected the only escape he will have a much harder time finding his way out.

2 Peter 2:20-22 isn't the only verse take this one:

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

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How about these verses, well-known by LCers:

1 Cor 3:13-15

13 It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

If works determine your ultimate salvation, then how can someone's work be burned yet he be saved? Hmmmmm?

bearbear, make no mistake, you are teaching salvation by works. That's your perogative, but at least call it what it is.

My Dad, an elder in a break-away LC kept bring this up to me. (By the way, he no longer believes in free-grace after I did Greek word studies with him) I've addressed this on my website:

Many also point to this verse as a guarantee of salvation. Catholics and kingdom exclusion teachers such as Watchman Nee and southern Baptists use this verse to support their doctrine of purgatory or a temporary period of discipline in outer darkness for unfaithful believers.

We agree this verse confirms that we are saved by grace and not works. Paul is trying to convey that if someone has truly repented but has no good works he will still be saved. One example is the thief on the cross next to Jesus in Luke 23:43. Because of this believer's sinful past, God must burn up his works so that he can forget them. This verse isn't saying the believer will be burned, but that the works are so that he may be saved.

Perhaps knowing that many would twist this concession to mean more than it should, Paul proceeds to warn in the next verses "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (KJV)" so that believers would understand that salvation still requires holiness. If we say we believe but don't repent and instead defile our hearts through practicing sin, God will still cast us into hell.

The concept of purgatorial suffering in outer darkness preceding entrance into the kingdom of heaven simply isn't found in the bible. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear that our only chance to repent is in this life and not after we die. Outer darkness rather than being temporary is for eternity given the finality of the Lord's words in Matthew 7 and echoed again in Luke 13 "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you!". We only have one shot and it's in this life!

Ohio · 12-19-2013, 09:42 AM

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Originally Posted by bearbear

Hi Ohio, I believe I have addressed this in an earlier post. The Greek word pisteou translated into English as believe is different than many read it to be. The way the apostle John uses it is the same as obedience.

He who has ears let him hear. If you're willing to bet your eternity and those of your friends and relatives on free grace theology no one is stopping you. My aim is just to get this truth out to those who've never been exposed to it by living under the LSM umbrella.

Every believer I know in the LC's, including all the posters here, have beliefs concerning salvation which correspond with fundamental, evangelical Christianity. It's nothing about LSM "umbrellas" or your twisting of the Greek word "pisteuo," which means "to believe, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to trust, to have reliance upon, and not mere credence." (Vine.) In this regard, to believe the good news is to obey the message from God to believe in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

Listen, brother BearBear, ex-LCers have gone all over the world with their post-LC journeys. I have watched a few of them travel into the strange places of kingdom dominionism, Pentecostal deliverance, legalism, Judaism, etc. etc. all with new found exclusive ideas to prove that, according to them, just about no one is saved, but, of course, them. And they got lots of verses to prove it.

But this is your thread, BearBear, so I s'pose you can say anything you want to. But according to your standards, the only people who can trully be saved are those hypocrites who claim to be doing everything you have said.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 09:43 AM

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Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I am not under 'the law': Do not watch TV. Do not listen to secular music! Nope. But my Love for the Lord and His Word is 'naturally' crucifying the flesh. Simple as that. So it is no longer "I" that lives but Christ Who lives IN me....changing my taste buds to love what He loves & hate what He hates.

Yes! This was the eureka moment I had too. Galatians 5:24 says love fulfills the law.

When we love the Lord God with all our heart (which results in obedience), God comes to live in us by the Holy Spirit (John 14:23) by which the law is fulfilled. We do good works out of love which works through faith not because we *have to* because its a rule. Loving God also means loving our neighbors who were made in his image. It also means loving the poor (see the Matthew 25 sheep/goat judgment). Jesus personally damns people to hell, solely on the basis of neglecting the poor showing that they didn't have true faith in Christ by ignoring the needy. He treats them as if by not loving the poor, they weren't loving him.

See how well this corresponds to James 2 who rebukes Jews for saying they have faith but turning the needy away without giving them anything! By their works they show they have no faith.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 09:49 AM

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Originally Posted by Ohio

Every believer I know in the LC's, including all the posters here, have beliefs concerning salvation which correspond with fundamental, evangelical Christianity. It's nothing about LSM "umbrellas" or your twisting of the Greek word "pisteuo," which means "to believe, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to trust, to have reliance upon, and not mere credence." (Vine.) In this regard, to believe the good news is to obey the message from God to believe in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

Not every evangelical adheres to dispensational free grace theology, there are plenty that don't. Well many focus solely on the gospel if they do adhere to free grace for a reason because if you can get anyone to say the sinner's prayer *boom* they're saved. However Paul balanced his gospel preaching with a desperate care for the churches. He was worried that many would forfeit their salvation by falling away. He was even worried about doing all the work he did in vain!

Philippians 2:16
holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

Did you know that Paul also warned the Corinthians believers about believing in vain?

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

What do you think it means to believe in vain? What are the obvious consequences of believing in Jesus in vain?

All I'm saying is that we have to both repent and believe, it's difficult to understand how you can read God's word with faithful exegesis and not come to that conclusion.

OBW · 12-19-2013, 10:15 AM

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Originally Posted by bearbear

If God's word says it would be better for them to never have believed in the gospel before they abandoned the faith--- do you really think . . .

But what exactly does Peter's statement mean? If it means that they will get a hotter furnace in hell, then maybe (assuming that anything over 150 Fahrenheit will be felt differently). How is anything worse than "eternal perdition"?

Unless we can come up with yet another level of perdition, this must (once again) be one of those extreme opposites used to make a point. While I do not buy the kind of outer darkness that Lee proposed (more because of the causes of avoiding it or being subject to it than anything else), Jesus did provide at least a couple of parables that sound a little like Peter's words. But if it is just eternal perdition, then the only difference between the ones we are discussing and the never-anything-but-a-heathen is that the ones we are discussing thought they were avoiding it. But their eternal destiny would be the same, not worse.

So the reference to being better off not believing almost has to be some kind of equivalent to the downside in the love v hate discussion. You are going to get something you are not expecting. And I don't think those who have apparently abandoned the faith are expecting anything. They don't care.

And those who do have expectation are probably at least plodding along vary haltingly in the faith. They know what they believe and what they are doing about it.

BTW. I have often used the example of the guy with a wire across Niagara Falls and a wheelbarrow as an example of belief. He asked if the watchers believed he could take a person safely across. They all said "yes" but none would get in and try it. They didn't really believe.

And this somewhat goes to Igzy's post. The thing he labeled "salvation" is by faith alone through the grace of Jesus Christ (if I got the nuances of the "by" and "through" wrong in anyone's mind, get over it). That is correct. But when you get to the salvation that is worked out with fear and trembling, works are absolutely necessary. Not because they are the cause of your ongoing salvation, but rather that without them it is evident that there is no ongoing salvation.

Jesus instructed the disciples (only the 11, not the larger crowd, or every Christian) to go into all the world making disciples, baptizing, and teaching to obey. So for anyone who thinks that practical obedience and righteousness is a thing of the law and therefore over, they are seriously deluded. And if they think they can obey the commands of Christ without actually doing works, they are just as deluded.

The works do not save you. But the obedience to do them is the evidence of the salvation. They are inseparable. I must walk according to the Spirit. Without my walking, there is no "walk according to" anything. Anybody teaching otherwise is not worthy of the title of "teacher."

Even abiding is a matter of connection and activity. Inactive branches do not remain connected. They die and fall off.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 10:46 AM

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Originally Posted by OBW

But what exactly does Peter's statement mean? If it means that they will get a hotter furnace in hell, then maybe (assuming that anything over 150 Fahrenheit will be felt differently). How is anything worse than "eternal perdition"?

There are different levels of hell which Jesus alludes to in Luke 10:

12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.

Oh and here's interesting trivia: while many of the cities in Palestine during Jesus' time have survived into modern day Israel, all the cities he cursed are *GONE*!

People have also witnessed different levels of hells in NDEs and visions. One of them is Bill Weise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysqX...YgYyld&index=2

here's another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2X5...iVyV7g&index=2

plenty more here:

http://www.divinerevelations.info/

I believe most nominal Christians who were unfaithful but didn't live in sin will end up in outer darkness and not be tortured by flames. It's not a place of torment but a place of nothingness, all you can do is gnash your teeth and cry.

Here's a lukewarm believer who ended up there after he had a heart attack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6va...PdEOpiPOiVyV7g

and another here:
http://eternityinourheart.com/nde/mickey-robinson

and another here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh9K...VyV7g&index=20

OBW · 12-19-2013, 10:50 AM

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Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Bringing it closer to home, I had the darnest time figuring out Galatians 2:20 meant when I was in the LC back in the 70s. Remember, we did not watch TV, listen to the radio, read only newspaper headlines, went to meeting after meeting, called 'on the Lord' repeatedly, perpetually, incessantly, and monotonously. AND we dressed alike.

So what was the need to teach Galatians 2:20? We had left everything far, far behind us.

I think that the answer is in looking at the very words used by Paul. He did not admonish the Galatians to have an experience of being crucified with Christ. He used himself as an example. He was already crucified with Christ. "I have been." Not "I am being" or "I must continually be."

The death that was required was satisfied by Christ. Were you there when they crucified my Lord? Yes. We all were. That death eliminated the requirement of death for those who believe.

But circumcision was an OT sign that death was required. Similar to the sacrifices, circumcision reflects the cutting away of our sin, and even a sort of symbol of death. Part of us dies. But since Christ dealt with the need for death, there is no need for circumcision.

All of the formulas for how we can do what Galatians 2:20 doesn't actually tell us to do are nonsense. That is my point. Galatians 2:20 does not instruct us to do anything. It is one of those "this is what Christ has done" declarations. Like our initial salvation, we cannot do the dying for our sins (unless we remain unrepentant and just die in our sins).

The life I now live is something that occurs after taking for myself the fact of the finished work of Christ in his crucifixion.

You may have had some important and significant experiences. But they are not what it means to be crucified with Christ. People who don't have those particular experiences may read and then wonder whether they have actually been crucified with Christ. Not because they have failed to believe, but because they did not do whatever it was that someone suggested was their own being, or the formula to be, crucified with Christ.

In the end, the things that we must do and how we do them are less specific that most of the kinds of things that we so often focus on. While it is not quite this open, I am reminded of the closing scenes of Back to the Future - Part III, where Elizabeth Shue holds out a picture that has become blank. While the words said are not really on point, the notion that what it is that our lives will engage in to carry out our destiny as God's image bearers on this earth during this age is not written gives me much comfort. We are not just supposed to do specific things that have been defined in code within the pages of scripture. We are supposed to live the obedient life in everything that we do. We are not supposed to be crucified — it has already happened. We are not supposed to wait for enough dispensing to be righteous, we already have everything we need for it (and for godliness).

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

This is not an argument about how to deal with being crucified, or "taking the cross." It is a different view of what is said and what we are to do because of it. And being crucified does not seem to be one of the actual commands to us. But walking according to the Spirit is. But obedience is. Righteousness is. Justice is. Love is.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 11:03 AM

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Originally Posted by OBW

Obedience is better than sacrifice.

Amen! I wrote a blog post here regarding this: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...epentance.html

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This is not an argument about how to deal with being crucified, or "taking the cross." It is a different view of what is said and what we are to do because of it. And being crucified does not seem to be one of the actual commands to us. But walking according to the Spirit is. But obedience is. Righteousness is. Justice is. Love is.

Would you consider statements by Jesus such as these as commands? Are they optional? or required?

Matthew 10:38
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Luke 9:24
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mark 11:25
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

And others by Paul such as these:

Colossians 3:13
Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.

Romans 6:11
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

Does this all sound impossible? Because it is! With man nothing is possible but with God all things are possible! That's why the Holy Spirit came down to earth- and that's why you need it! But he'll only come inside you after you repent! The bible doesn't teach that Christ lives in everyone who claims him as Lord, but only those who have repented and in so doing love God with all their heart and obey him. I've written about this here for those interested:

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-believer.html

Paul said in Colossians 1:27 "Christ in us the hope of glory!"

We have hope for glory because Christ lives in us without which we are doomed. So we need to examine ourselves, which Paul encourages us to do and not just blindly assume we are of the faith and Christ lives in us.

2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

OBW · 12-19-2013, 11:03 AM

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Originally Posted by bearbear

There are different levels of hell which Jesus alludes to in Luke 10:

12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades.

While I think, like Igzy, that you are taking this line of reasoning to a place that it was not meant to go, when I read this particular passage, I can only make sense of it in terms of comparing living through punishment with simply being destroyed. And if that is the case, then there is hope of exiting the punishment on the other side.

If, like Tyre and Sidon, or Sodom, there is complete destruction, then it is simply over. But if there is punishment that you have to "live" through, then I understand. But only if that is not just a more brutal pre-destruction.

And when you speak of Capernaum, Bethsaida, and Chorazin, those are the ones who are going to receive the worst punishment. But I can only assume that it is referring to the surprise in discovering that you had hitched your cart to the wrong horse. The trolley line you were on wasn't going to Heavenly Heights Lane, but Hotter-than-Hell alley. And the walls were too heat resistant to realize it in time to get off the trolley. Those cities were evidently resting on their being within Judea as being their ticket to God. They failed to actually follow God. Not sure that this is the same as actually believing and then(somewhat) falling away. Could be. But on what do you rest your certainty?

OBW · 12-19-2013, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Would you consider statements by Jesus such as these as commands? Are they optional? or required?

Matthew 10:38
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Luke 9:24
For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.

And others by Paul such as these:

Romans 6:11
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

Not sure whether we agree on any particular one of these. You quoted them and made no comment. Yet you request a comment by me or others.

The problem is what do each of these mean? If you feel a need to define the cross that must be taken up in following, then you will not get as much agreement as you might like. Similarly, what is the meaning of "giving up your life"?

While Jesus is the source, Paul did some really good commentary. "Consider yourself dead" is clearly a term of art, not some harsh command. This clearly requires that we think about ourselves and our condition, and engage our will to stand on God's side, engage with the Spirit, and do it His way rather than our own. If we just do it our way, we are not dead.

Yet, do you assume that this means that you don't end out doing some of the same things either way? I still stay married to my wife. I still don't cheat on my expense report and taxes. But the reason I do what I do is no longer based on my decision. I am no longer the source of decisions on right and wrong. Or good and evil. I return that responsibility to God.

While considering yourself dead to sin requires our active participation, the "why" of it has moved from us to Christ. We must change our minds. Sometimes that will also require that we change our actions. But other times it may just change the reason for our actions.

And if you don't see the difference, it will show up when there arises conflict with others. If we are dead to sin, love will guide our way. Otherwise self-interest (and sin) will rule.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 11:23 AM

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Originally Posted by OBW

Not sure whether we agree on any particular one of these. You quoted them and made no comment. Yet you request a comment by me or others.

The problem is what do each of these mean? If you feel a need to define the cross that must be taken up in following, then you will not get as much agreement as you might like. Similarly, what is the meaning of "giving up your life"?

While Jesus is the source, Paul did some really good commentary. "Consider yourself dead" is clearly a term of art, not some harsh command. This clearly requires that we think about ourselves and our condition, and engage our will to stand on God's side, engage with the Spirit, and do it His way rather than our own. If we just do it our way, we are not dead.

Yet, do you assume that this means that you don't end out doing some of the same things either way? I still stay married to my wife. I still don't cheat on my expense report and taxes. But the reason I do what I do is no longer based on my decision. I am no longer the source of decisions on right and wrong. Or good and evil. I return that responsibility to God.

While considering yourself dead to sin requires our active participation, the "why" of it has moved from us to Christ. We must change our minds. Sometimes that will also require that we change our actions. But other times it may just change the reason for our actions.

And if you don't see the difference, it will show up when there arises conflict with others. If we are dead to sin, love will guide our way. Otherwise self-interest (and sin) will rule.

Paul told us to test ourselves and examine ourselves if we are in the faith in 2 Corinthians 13:5. Rather than being an art, the bible gives us clear guidelines for how we can see if we are living in the faith and if we have taken the cross. Watchman Nee seemed to understand the cross as not vindicating yourself. However many times both Jesus and Paul vindicated themselves when they were persecuted unfairly. When Jesus was hit, he asked "why do you strike me? if I've done wrong then point out the wrong", the Apostle Paul also made a similar vindication in front of the high priest in Acts.

Rather than not vindicating yourself, which I suspect is something that comes from Chinese Confucianism, we are told that taking the cross means to crucify the passions and desires of our flesh (see Galatians 5:24)

Now what exactly are these passions and desires? Paul doesn't leave us in the dark, he spells it out for us clearly:

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

OBW · 12-19-2013, 11:26 AM

BB,

One last thought. Stop looking so closely at a few words within one verse that is only part of a sentence that is part of a paragraph that is part of an entire discourse on a particular subject. Consider the whole thing. Don't just jump to the local equivalents of "though shalt" or "though shalt not." Too often there really aren't such things even written there. They only appear that way when you rip them from context and demand that they provide a directive.

I'm not saying that there are no commands. But be sure that you are reading them correctly. Finding a few words that could be construed to mean whatever you are thinking about is not the same as a few words that when placed back in context really are saying something different. Not necessarily opposite, but nonetheless different.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

BB,

One last thought. Stop looking so closely at a few words within one verse that is only part of a sentence that is part of a paragraph that is part of an entire discourse on a particular subject. Consider the whole thing. Don't just jump to the local equivalents of "though shalt" or "though shalt not." Too often there really aren't such things even written there. They only appear that way when you rip them from context and demand that they provide a directive.

I'm not saying that there are no commands. But be sure that you are reading them correctly. Finding a few words that could be construed to mean whatever you are thinking about is not the same as a few words that when placed back in context really are saying something different. Not necessarily opposite, but nonetheless different.

I've been answering your questions directly quoting from God's word and explaining from scripture how I arrived at it. You've just been dishing me your own thoughts. You're free to show me in scripture where I'm wrong, provided it's in context and according to the spirit of how it's stated.

Ephesians 4 tells us to equip the sword of the spirit which is God's word. Hebrews 4 says God's word is like a sword that can cut to the heart. The reason you and others and myself in the past are struggling with confronting God's word in its plain meaning may be because this sword is convicting all of us to repent and let go of what he hold so dearly in this world.

OBW · 12-19-2013, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Paul told us to test ourselves and examine ourselves if we are in the faith in 2 Corinthians 13:5. Rather than being an art, the bible gives us clear guidelines for how we can see if we are living in the faith and if we have taken the cross. Watchman Nee seemed to understand the cross as not vindicating yourself. However many times both Jesus and Paul vindicated themselves when they were persecuted unfairly. When Jesus was hit, he asked "why do you strike me? if I've done wrong then point out the wrong", the Apostle Paul also made a similar vindication in front of the high priest in Acts.

Rather than not vindicating yourself, which I suspect is something that comes from Chinese Confucianism, we are told that taking the cross means to crucify the passions and desires of our flesh (see Galatians 5:24)

Now what exactly are these passions and desires? Paul doesn't leave us in the dark, he spells it out for us clearly:

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Yes. And Paul is busy telling this to the people that he has referred to as the church. Not to the unsaved ones who attend the meetings with others who are the church.

So there is a problem in the jump to perdition (and a worse one at that) for those who are not simply toeing the line. For those who do not remain burning in their zeal for the faith.

It may be that we have come to hold a skewed view of faith/belief. One that is too based on mental assent than combined with obedience of the one supposedly believed. But there will always be levels of belief. At least one recognized their own lack of belief, but prayed for it to be filled up.

So I return to my main complaint about these kinds of discussions. When you (anyone) start trotting out a shopping list of verses to make some point that is more difficult than love God and love your neighbor, there is reason for some push-back. While it is clear that loving God requires obedience (otherwise it is just lip service), every effort at trying to define what that means (as if we need to do so to help God find the right (or wrong) ones) is an effort in defining who is in and who is out. Even within the context of the Lord's table, outside of someone who is openly in unacceptable sin, we should be willing to let God decide who is worthy and who is unworthy.

You may not be trying to define a new sect based on certain specific understanding of scripture, you do seem determined that we be more strident in getting these things right according to your understanding than to holding more loosely to whatever it is that we think is the correct understanding. I am not saying to refrain from speaking about or teaching what you think is correct. But inside of this forum, the best things to insist upon are less specificity rather than more. And it is hard to insist on less. You just hold to less and point that direction. Holding to more too often looks like trying to replace Lee and the BWees with your own "this is THE WAY."

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Yes. And Paul is busy telling this to the people that he has referred to as the church. Not to the unsaved ones who attend the meetings with others who are the church.

So there is a problem in the jump to perdition (and a worse one at that) for those who are not simply toeing the line. For those who do not remain burning in their zeal for the faith.

It may be that we have come to hold a skewed view of faith/belief. One that is too based on mental assent than combined with obedience of the one supposedly believed. But there will always be levels of belief. At least one recognized their own lack of belief, but prayed for it to be filled up.

So I return to my main complaint about these kinds of discussions. When you (anyone) start trotting out a shopping list of verses to make some point that is more difficult than love God and love your neighbor, there is reason for some push-back. While it is clear that loving God requires obedience (otherwise it is just lip service), every effort at trying to define what that means (as if we need to do so to help God find the right (or wrong) ones) is an effort in defining who is in and who is out. Even within the context of the Lord's table, outside of someone who is openly in unacceptable sin, we should be willing to let God decide who is worthy and who is unworthy.

You may not be trying to define a new sect based on certain specific understanding of scripture, you do seem determined that we be more strident in getting these things right according to your understanding than to holding more loosely to whatever it is that we think is the correct understanding. I am not saying to refrain from speaking about or teaching what you think is correct. But inside of this forum, the best things to insist upon are less specificity rather than more. And it is hard to insist on less. You just hold to less and point that direction. Holding to more too often looks like trying to replace Lee and the BWees with your own "this is THE WAY."

God loves every sinner and wants us all to come to repentance. In fact he's delaying his coming because he's waiting for the full number of the elect to repent:

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

I agree God loves his church, but churches can have their lampstands removed. Jesus says you are the light of the world and to let our light shine. Is a church still a church without a lampstand? If you read the seven letters to the churches in Revelation, Jesus judges each church according to their works and for some churches he threatens to remove their lampstand if they don't repent. He actually uses phrases such as " I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God." perhaps because works are a measure of if our faith is real. What do you think the consequences are for not repenting? Would the Laodiceans still be saved if they didn't? God in his mercy still loves them so he wants them to, but he can never violate anyone's free will.

15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me

You accuse me of being a sect. But there are hundreds of millions of Christians and not just Pentecostals but also those in the Reformed tradition who hold to similar beliefs, including staunch Calvinists such as John Piper. Free grace Christians are actually the small minority!

Ohio · 12-19-2013, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every believer I know in the LC's, including all the posters here, have beliefs concerning salvation which correspond with fundamental, evangelical Christianity. It's nothing about LSM "umbrellas" or your twisting of the Greek word "pisteuo," which means "to believe, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to trust, to have reliance upon, and not mere credence." (Vine.) In this regard, to believe the good news is to obey the message from God to believe in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

Listen, brother BearBear, ex-LCers have gone all over the world with their post-LC journeys. I have watched a few of them travel into the strange places of kingdom dominionism, Pentecostal deliverance, legalism, Judaism, etc. etc. all with new found exclusive ideas to prove that, according to them, just about no one is saved, but, of course, them. And they got lots of verses to prove it.

But this is your thread, BearBear, so I s'pose you can say anything you want to. But according to your standards, the only people who can trully be saved are those hypocrites who claim to be doing everything you have said.

BearBear, I just love the way you read and pay attention to what others write to you.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

BearBear, I just love the way you read and pay attention to what others write to you.

First of all I never said all free grace Christians are damned and everyone who disagrees with me is going to hell. God knows my heart, I'm just trying to faithful to what the word of God says without eisigesis.

I consider many in this school of Christianity my brothers and sisters in Christ whom I know we will see in heaven. I even follow and subscribe to a lot of their sermons, including those in Calvary Chapel and Bible Prophecy teachers like Chuck Missler and Gary Stearman. If you love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself, it doesn't really matter what doctrine you adhere to, that's all that God ever wanted! Love fulfills the law (Galatians 5:14)

That said, I believe Jesus made a prophetic statement regarding the church and free grace doctrine:

Matthew 5:19-20
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus made it clear we will see many such Christians in heaven, but there will be different rewards. Why is he being such a stickler on this?

Free grace teaches that the moral law has been abolished and we don't have to worry about them. Both classical five point Calvinists and Arminianism contend that Christians enslaved and living in sin and thereby regularly break the law are not and will not be truly saved until they repent.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus chooses the word "lawlessness" in Matthew 7:23?

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The reason I'm adamant on this is I believe this doctrine is dangerous because when times of temptation come, it's a lot easier to yield to it when you think to yourself "Hey I'm saved in the end right?"

OBW · 12-19-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I've been answering your questions directly quoting from God's word and explaining from scripture how I arrived at it. You've just been dishing me your own thoughts. You're free to show me in scripture where I'm wrong, provided it's in context and according to the spirit of how it's stated.

When you actually provide an entire passage with the verse you are talking about inside of it and deal with the whole context rather than saying "what about these" after which you provide only 4 totally separate verses without any context and without any comment of your own. That is not answering a question. It is the throwing around of proof texts. You found a particular word. That word literally means "X," therefore this verse means "Y." A whole lot like Lee turning 1 Corinthians 15:45 into a discourse on the Trinity. It isn't there.

The funny thing is that you are not even giving a discussion — good or bad. Just quoting the verses. Reading fortune cookies. What happens when the next one says "Ignore previous cookie"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

The reason you and others and myself in the past are struggling with confronting God's word in its plain meaning may be because this sword is convicting all of us to repent and let go of what he hold so dearly in this world.

I am not struggling with confronting God's word in its plain meaning. I am seeking to find its plain meaning after being fed nonsense in the place of plain meaning for years. We spent years listening to a man who wanted everything to be a metaphor for his pet doctrines. Finally getting over that. But the way you get over that is not to assume that everything must be absolutely literal. Some things are metaphors. Some things require a little thought beyond reading mere words. The outcomes are not usually surprising. Just not literal relative to the words spoken/written.

You seem bent upon forcing an Arminian view of scripture. While I do not find the Arminian view as "clearly wrong" as a 5-point Calvinist might, I do think that trying to prove loss of salvation to people who are busy serving God is a waste of time. The only ones you really need to prove it to are those who have simply chucked it all.

Unless you believe it like I did as a child in the Assemblies of God. I thought all you had to do was say a bad word (in other words commit any sin) and you were going to hell until you repented to God again. While I will not entirely dismiss the idea of losing of salvation, I now believe that, at the worst, it is a difficult thing to do. You seem to be determined to prove it easier. I really don't care for the discussion. You can whine about all your verses, but it is a little bit like all those 27 8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each that the judge was not going to look at because he came in behind a seeing-eye dog.

You are pushing a position that is not palatable. You don't need to preach this to combat the LRC. It may not be way off like the "my writing is is scripture" guys from a few years ago, but it is not getting the traction you want and is somewhat off topic.

What is in it for you to need to convince us that we better watch out (better not cry, better not pout, I'm telling you why . . .)? I hold to the core of the faith (which does not include anything about city boundaries) and while I believe a lot beyond that, I could be wrong about that part. And maybe others are instead. Or maybe we all are. I really don't care. Not because I'm flippant about it, but because the real requirements for faith that I see are much more about how we live than how we beat ourselves up or do "spiritual" things.

Less about definitions, formulas, meetings, etc. More about tires meeting the road in daily life.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

When you actually provide an entire passage with the verse you are talking about inside of it and deal with the whole context rather than saying "what about these" after which you provide only 4 totally separate verses without any context and without any comment of your own. That is not answering a question. It is the throwing around of proof texts. You found a particular word. That word literally means "X," therefore this verse means "Y." A whole lot like Lee turning 1 Corinthians 15:45 into a discourse on the Trinity. It isn't there.

The funny thing is that you are not even giving a discussion — good or bad. Just quoting the verses. Reading fortune cookies. What happens when the next one says "Ignore previous cookie"?

I am not struggling with confronting God's word in its plain meaning. I am seeking to find its plain meaning after being fed nonsense in the place of plain meaning for years. We spent years listening to a man who wanted everything to be a metaphor for his pet doctrines. Finally getting over that. But the way you get over that is not to assume that everything must be absolutely literal. Some things are metaphors. Some things require a little thought beyond reading mere words. The outcomes are not usually surprising. Just not literal relative to the words spoken/written.

You seem bent upon forcing an Arminian view of scripture. While I do not find the Arminian view as "clearly wrong" as a 5-point Calvinist might, I do think that trying to prove loss of salvation to people who are busy serving God is a waste of time. The only ones you really need to prove it to are those who have simply chucked it all.

Unless you believe it like I did as a child in the Assemblies of God. I thought all you had to do was say a bad word (in other words commit any sin) and you were going to hell until you repented to God again. While I will not entirely dismiss the idea of losing of salvation, I now believe that, at the worst, it is a difficult thing to do. You seem to be determined to prove it easier. I really don't care for the discussion. You can whine about all your verses, but it is a little bit like all those 27 8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each that the judge was not going to look at because he came in behind a seeing-eye dog.

You are pushing a position that is not palatable. You don't need to preach this to combat the LRC. It may not be way off like the "my writing is is scripture" guys from a few years ago, but it is not getting the traction you want and is somewhat off topic.

What is in it for you to need to convince us that we better watch out (better not cry, better not pout, I'm telling you why . . .)? I hold to the core of the faith (which does not include anything about city boundaries) and while I believe a lot beyond that, I could be wrong about that part. And maybe others are instead. Or maybe we all are. I really don't care. Not because I'm flippant about it, but because the real requirements for faith that I see are much more about how we live than how we beat ourselves up or do "spiritual" things.

Less about definitions, formulas, meetings, etc. More about tires meeting the road in daily life.

I don't really adhere to an Arminian view of scripture though I do respect it. I believe you may be labeling me as such because of the childhood trauma you underwent. Romans 8:1 makes it clear that those who are in Christ Jesus are not under condemnation, as long as they walk according to the spirit and not the flesh (KJV). A little slip up here and there is fine and Jesus' blood will cover us. But once you start being mastered by sin then that's a problem because Jesus says we can only serve one master. Paul says in 1 Corinithians 6 that he won't be mastered by anything for good reason.

I believe once you repent and are truly born again by the Holy Spirit, God won't lose you until the end. The question is how do you know you truly belong to God and are born again? I believe the answer is in the whole book of Galatians which gives us specific tests to see if we are bearing fruits according to the Holy Spirit (peace, love, joy etc.) and not living in sin. This I'm not certain but I think it's possible to have assurance.

Jesus told the disciples once to rejoice because their names are written in heaven. And he says in a couple places in John that he won't lose whoever belongs to him. I believe he said that to give us some assurance, otherwise we'd always be worried about our salvation.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

If you have evidence of the Holy Spirit in your life, that's a good sign you are a child of God. For example, have you ever forgiven someone who hurt you badly and continues to do so from your heart? If you do, that's a fruit of the Holy Spirit because no one can do that from human effort or philosophy. If you really want to stick a label on me I'd be fine with something between experimental Calvinism (OSAS after you die and find yourself in heaven) and standard TULIP Calvinism.

My favorite quote from John Piper regarding this is:

"finishing authenticates beginning"

OBW · 12-19-2013, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

You accuse me of being a sect. But there are hundreds of millions of Christians and not just Pentecostals but also those in the Reformed tradition who hold to similar beliefs, including staunch Calvinists such as John Piper. Free grace Christians are actually the small minority!

I did not accuse you a being a sect. I suggested that you seemed to be trying to build a consensus for a different approach to scripture which would, by definition, be outside of what we are already, therefore another sect.

Now I was not using "sect" in a pejorative way. Just noting another division of believers to follow yet another variant in teaching.

What I believe concerning the means of salvation is not dictated by the majority or minority of its adherents. If I wanted to go with the majority view, I would not be Christian.

And I think that if you read what I am saying, I am not standing for a view of grace that is so simple. It is free. But it is not simple. Grace is not just a free gift. In Titus (I think that is the place) Paul refers to grace as teaching us to obey. So grace is even present in obedience.

Your spouting of warnings to Laocidea is really off-base. When it mentions being lukewarm, it is not talking about being uncertain about doctrines. It is talking about being blah about really following Christ. It is clear that the other 6 churches were not identical in their ways of following. And some of them had problems. But they were still churches of the redeemed. And no matter how much you may think that a particular doctrine (outside of the core of the faith) is important, it is not so important that you or we are in danger of finding ourselves on the outside looking in (unless the inside is some exclusivist group like the LRC). I am strong for Christ. I am strong in my seeking to be obedient to what I am called to.

But doctrines are not Christ. Teachings are not Christ. Even meetings are not Christ. Traditions are not Christ. Ways are not Christ. We do not need uniformity in any of those other things to be unified in Christ. My admonition to you is not to change your mind on your doctrines, but to hold them a little less strongly so that you are not guilty of being divisive over something that is not Christ. Those in Christ are "IN." Others are not. Those who think certain doctrines are true are only in or out because of their position on/with Christ. Not because of their position on Arminianism v Calvinism.

Cal · 12-19-2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Free grace teaches that the moral law has been abolished and we don't have to worry about them. Both classical five point Calvinists and Arminianism contend that Christians enslaved and living in sin and thereby regularly break the law are not and will not be truly saved until they repent.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus chooses the word "lawlessness" in Matthew 7:23?

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The reason I'm adamant on this is I believe this doctrine is dangerous because when times of temptation come, it's a lot easier to yield to it when you think to yourself "Hey I'm saved in the end right?"

bearbear,

I don't know of any church that teaches that morality has been abolished, or that we don't need to behave morally. Which church teaches that?

As to your last point. I see some indication that those who believe that salvation is totally by works (e.g. Mormons) are sometimes outwardly more moral than others. But I see little indication that those who believe they can lose their salvation walk in significant more holiness that those who don't. So what's the point?

Your whole thrust is that fear of losing salvation is a motivator. But if that were true we'd see a great difference in the lives of "free gracers" and "elevator salvationists." We don't.

I've seen one thing that causes people to live holy lives for the long term. Loving Jesus. That is the only real motivator that gets people over the hump and keeps them going.

So trying to scare people into thinking they are going to lose their salvation in order to get them to behave by kingdom standards just doesn't work. It might have some superficial or temporary effect. But in the end, people seek God and live righteously because they want to please Him. And I don't think he would have it any other way. In short, it's about love.

In the end we are all saved, yes. But there are eternal, not only temporal, rewards for those who are faithful. However, we will cast even these crowns at His feet.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I did not accuse you a being a sect. I suggested that you seemed to be trying to build a consensus for a different approach to scripture which would, by definition, be outside of what we are already, therefore another sect.

Now I was not using "sect" in a pejorative way. Just noting another division of believers to follow yet another variant in teaching.

What I believe concerning the means of salvation is not dictated by the majority or minority of its adherents. If I wanted to go with the majority view, I would not be Christian.

And I think that if you read what I am saying, I am not standing for a view of grace that is so simple. It is free. But it is not simple. Grace is not just a free gift. In Titus (I think that is the place) Paul refers to grace as teaching us to obey. So grace is even present in obedience.

Your spouting of warnings to Laocidea is really off-base. When it mentions being lukewarm, it is not talking about being uncertain about doctrines. It is talking about being blah about really following Christ. It is clear that the other 6 churches were not identical in their ways of following. And some of them had problems. But they were still churches of the redeemed. And no matter how much you may think that a particular doctrine (outside of the core of the faith) is important, it is not so important that you or we are in danger of finding ourselves on the outside looking in (unless the inside is some exclusivist group like the LRC). I am strong for Christ. I am strong in my seeking to be obedient to what I am called to.

God loves to give us pictures and he does in the OT. The good land was promised to the children of Israel and I bet a lot of them thought it would be a cakewalk.

But look at how much *stuff* they had to endure to actually get there. All of the old generation was not allowed in because of their unbelief. Sure they believed in Jehovah-- but did they really *believe* in his promises? Did they have conviction God would deliver them from every trial based on the miracles he did before? I love the definition of faith in Hebrews 11 - the conviction of things hoped for. Our faith is not in vain because God has been working miracles in our lives and delivering on his promises according to his word like he did with the Israelites

And even when they entered the good land-- Oh my! It was filled with giants maybe 30 feet tall! Can you imagine what was going through the minds of Joshua, Caleb and the ten spies? But greater is the one who is in us than the one in the world (1 John 4:4). Appearances are deceiving, but when we have faith in God anything is possible as it was for a small shepherd boy to slay a giant many times his size.

Quote:

But doctrines are not Christ. Teachings are not Christ. Even meetings are not Christ. Traditions are not Christ. Ways are not Christ. We do not need uniformity in any of those other things to be unified in Christ. My admonition to you is not to change your mind on your doctrines, but to hold them a little less strongly so that you are not guilty of being divisive over something that is not Christ. Those in Christ are "IN." Others are not. Those who think certain doctrines are true are only in or out because of their position on/with Christ. Not because of their position on Arminianism v Calvinism.

I never meant to bring up Calvinism and Arminianism and I apologize for that because I pasted a bunch of stuff from my website that brought it up. I think I'll just go back and scrub the term OSAS because it's so controversial and causes division. Actually I lean towards OSAS after you receive the HS and truly belong to Jesus and not after a mere confession of belief that hasn't reached the heart.

All I'm saying is that-- make sure you repent! Many Christians think of belief in Jesus as mere intellectual acknowledge that he exists as the son of God. I contend that you have to go further and repent and be born again of the Holy Spirit.

Cal · 12-19-2013, 01:23 PM

Fear will drive us to God for mercy to gain salvation initially. But fear can't do the day-to-day heavy lifting needed to make sacrifices and care for others. Only love can do that. Preaching elevator salvation to scare people into behaving sounds good, but it doesn't work. It's never worked. What works is love.

And frankly, bearbear, you don't sound too loving, or joyful or peaceful for that matter. You sound like someone driven by fear to push a pet doctrine. In short, you sound religious.

OBW · 12-19-2013, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I believe once you repent and are truly born again by the Holy Spirit, God won't lose you until the end. The question is how do you know you truly belong to God and are born again? I believe the answer is in the whole book of Galatians which gives us specific tests to see if we are bearing fruits according to the Holy Spirit (peace, love, joy etc.) and not living in sin. This I'm not certain but I think it's possible to have assurance.

Yes we can have assurance, although I'm not sure that we are ever told that as clearly as we would like.

This was one of the reasons that Martin Luther nailed his "topics for discussion" to the door. He saw a lot of good Christians doing their regular thing but having no assurance that it would ever "stick." It was not that the way of the RCC was entirely bad or wrong. It just never stated that you could every know. Luther thought differently. He knew better. And he was sure that so many of them should also know better.

To the extent that (as I suggested) that I am not a die-hard OSAS adherent, I do believe that we can still know. And it is not so hard. You don't have to be able to point to your "taking of the cross" or reckoning of yourself as dead. Just know in whom you have believed and who you continue to follow and obey.

And when it comes to "obey," despite the passages concerning the cross, there are many more that point to righteousness in living, justice, and peace with our fellow man as the commands. Why do we latch onto the unclear metaphorical commands in two verses and skip by the obvious commands? I understand love God and your neighbor. When you try to insert "take the cross" into that, so many of the definitions don't fit. So if all the law and prophets is summed up in that simple statement, then there must be something missing in the understanding of "take the cross."

I am not going to continue to argue about it. My position is that less is more. It would seem that yours is only more is more. We disagree. That is OK. It does not exclude either of us from salvation.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

bearbear,

I don't know of any church that teaches that morality has been abolished, or that we don't need to behave morally. Which church teaches that?

As to your last point. I see some indication that those who believe that salvation is totally by works (e.g. Mormons) are sometimes outwardly more moral than others. But I see little indication that those who believe they can lose their salvation walk in significant more holiness that those who don't. So what's the point?

Your whole thrust is that fear of losing salvation is a motivator. But if that were true we'd see a great difference in the lives of "free gracers" and "elevator salvationists." We don't.

I've seen one thing that causes people to live holy lives for the long term. Loving Jesus. That is the only real motivator that gets people over the hump and keeps them going.

So trying to scare people into thinking they are going to lose their salvation in order to get them to behave by kingdom standards just doesn't work. It might have some superficial or temporary effect. But in the end, people seek God and live righteously because they want to please Him. And I don't think he would have it any other way. In short, it's about love.

In the end we are all saved, yes. But there are eternal, not only temporal, rewards for those who are faithful. However, we will cast even these crowns at His feet.

Well fear worked for me. I thought I loved God but I really didn't based on my practice of deliberate sinning and confessing. Fear drove me to love him with all of my heart because I knew I needed him, there was no way I could be delivered by my own effort. I experienced who Yeshua was-- the Lord is our Salvation!

Those who can love God without such a motivator are blessed and I wish I had your gift.

Now I wouldn't say I fear God, as much as I have a reverent respect for him. He was faithful to replace the fear I had with his love. He is a good Father!

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

That said I had to go through the experience described in these verses beforehand.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.

Psalms 147:11
the LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

Cal · 12-19-2013, 01:35 PM

Fear of God and fear of losing salvation aren't the same thing. Fear of God is biblical. Fear of losing eternal salvation that you've already gained is not.

OBW · 12-19-2013, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

God loves to give us pictures and he does in the OT. The good land was promised to the children of Israel and I bet a lot of them thought it would be a cakewalk.

But look at how much *stuff* they had to endure to actually get there. All of the old generation was not allowed in because of their unbelief. Sure they believed in Jehovah-- but they really *believe* in his promises?

Are we certain that references to the good land are synonymous with salvation in our era? And if lack of obtaining the good land is important, none before the time of the actual entering got it.

And they did not have "salvation" as we have it. They had to continually bring bulls and goats to sacrifice to God. Death was continually required.

Besides, it is difficult to analyze the eternal position of the OT people because there is little or no definitive comment on it is scripture. Despite the metaphorical and typological possibilities, we are looking into the eternal position of people in an era in which the discussion did not cover the topic. I've heard differing opinions and they are just that — opinions. Could be right. Could be wrong.

Anyway. Not going to assert the certainty of what it means.

Remember. For Paul, there was a crown laid up for him. I'm less certain about me. But I'm pretty sure about my presence at the ceremony.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Fear will drive us to God for mercy to gain salvation initially. But fear can't do the day-to-day heavy lifting needed to make sacrifices and care for others. Only love can do that. Preaching elevator salvation to scare people into behaving sounds good, but it doesn't work. It's never worked. What works is love.

And frankly, bearbear, you don't sound too loving, or joyful or peaceful for that matter. You sound like someone driven by fear to push a pet doctrine. In short, you sound religious.

Jesus says to judge a tree by it's fruit. If that's the impression I gave then I will repent and ask for forgiveness.

I don't want to push anything I just want to be faithful to spread the message of repentance. If one lurker reads my post and repents that's good enough for me!

All the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner repents (Luke 15:7), because they just gained someone worth more than the whole world, because the world is passing away with its desires but he who does the will of God abides forever (1 John 2:17)

And sorry all for being such a debbie downer. I take consolation in the fact that Jesus also preached a lot about hell, actually it takes up about 1/3 of his ministry.

Paul also gave a lot of warnings. But he was nice and used euphemisms instead (death, destruction, wrath of God, believing in vain, Christ profiting nothing etc.)

Cal · 12-19-2013, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I believe once you repent and are truly born again by the Holy Spirit, God won't lose you until the end. The question is how do you know you truly belong to God and are born again?

Okay, I'm totally confused now. I thought you were arguing that salvation can be lost if we don't continually repent and "take the cross" (whatever that means) for our whole lives. Now it appears you weren't saying that, but were simply rewording basic evangelical belief, that salvation is eternal, but should have fruit to indicate its genuineness.

I don't mind you pushing repentance. But you seemed to be saying that continual repentance till the day you die along with continual taking of the cross is necessary for eternal salvation. I apologize if I misread you.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

Are we certain that references to the good land are synonymous with salvation in our era? And if lack of obtaining the good land is important, none before the time of the actual entering got it.

And they did not have "salvation" as we have it. They had to continually bring bulls and goats to sacrifice to God. Death was continually required.

Besides, it is difficult to analyze the eternal position of the OT people because there is little or no definitive comment on it is scripture. Despite the metaphorical and typological possibilities, we are looking into the eternal position of people in an era in which the discussion did not cover the topic. I've heard differing opinions and they are just that — opinions. Could be right. Could be wrong.

Anyway. Not going to assert the certainty of what it means.

Remember. For Paul, there was a crown laid up for him. I'm less certain about me. But I'm pretty sure about my presence at the ceremony.

It's interesting Paul said that the moment before he died. That's awesome he finally got assurance. Outside of that he said believers should work out their salvation with fear and trembling as you mentioned before.

Whew I think my brain is fried. I think I said all I could and it's probably time for me to move on and sow *fear* into other places. Buahaha just kidding

The Lord will take me where he will.

God Bless you all and may God's grace keep us walking the narrow way that leads to life!

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Okay, I'm totally confused now. I thought you were arguing that salvation can be lost if we don't continually repent and "take the cross" (whatever that means) for our whole lives. Now it appears you weren't saying that, but were simply rewording basic evangelical belief, that salvation is eternal, but should have fruit to indicate its genuineness.

I don't mind you pushing repentance. But you seemed to be saying that continual repentance till the day you die along with continual taking of the cross is necessary for eternal salvation. I apologize if I misread you.

Finishing authenticates beginning.

Cal · 12-19-2013, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Finishing authenticates beginning.

But what if I have a bad week and then get hit by a car?

What if I check out a girl and a piano falls on my head?

Cal · 12-19-2013, 01:56 PM

This is why belief in elevator salvation always lead into some kind of belief in sinless perfection. Because the mind can't tolerate questions like the ones I just asked. So it starts kidding itself that it is not actually sinning.

You talk about motivations. You have to consider that one as well.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

But what if I have a bad week and then get hit by a car?

What if I check out a girl and a piano falls on my head?

If you belong to Jesus he won't let you go! He'll find a way. But don't test him intentionally..

Cal · 12-19-2013, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

If you belong to Jesus he won't let you go! He'll find a way. But don't test him intentionally..

I don't think we should do so either, but testing is not an unforgivable sin.

The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which in context means utter, blatant rejection of the Bearer of light. And once you reject the Bearer of light, where will you get light? Thus you will be lost.

One beauty of free grace is that self-righteousness is not a by-product ("so that no one can boast"). But the belief that you have to work for salvation easily leads to self-righteousness. So, again, which motivations are we going to prefer?

The bottom line is the Lord knows who are his and who aren't. It is not up to us to discern who is saved. I gave that up a long time ago. If people who confess Christ believe they are saved, I receive them. I don't examine their lives and tell them, no you can't be saved because a saved person would never ______ (fill in the blank).

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

The bottom line is the Lord knows who are his and who aren't. It is not up to us to discern who is saved. I gave that up a long time ago. If people who confess Christ believe they are saved, I receive them. I don't examine their lives and tell them, no you can't be saved because a saved person would never ______ (fill in the blank).

Is that what Jesus taught? What if a false prophet came to your church pretending to be a Christian knowingly/unknowingly?

Matthew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Ohio · 12-19-2013, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

But what if I have a bad week and then get hit by a car?

What if I check out a girl and a piano falls on my head?

Like he said, mayhem is everywhere!

But a piano falling on your head is an Act of God.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Like he said, mayhem is everywhere!

But a piano falling on your head is an Act of God.

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you."

Clearly, my time is up but I was never welcome here. A prophet is never welcome in his homeland hah (would ex-LRC believers count for me?). God Bless you anyway!

awareness · 12-19-2013, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Clearly, my time is up but I was never welcome here.

I think you might be right. So ... WELCOME bearbear!

But surely you know and expect that when you coming out preachin' yer gonna get push back. And that doesn't mean you are not welcome.

Ohio · 12-19-2013, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you."

Clearly, my time is up but I was never welcome here. A prophet is never welcome in his homeland hah (would ex-LRC believers count for me?). God Bless you anyway!

So you are now a prophet?

And as you leave, you call the rest of us dogs and pigs?

And we resist your extreme teachings, and you think we are attacking you?

God bless you too!

OBW · 12-19-2013, 04:04 PM

Ohio,

It is clear that the idea of an exchange of ideas, or one in which we come together to reason (as in "come, let us reason") is not acceptable. Did anyone chase him off? I commented on the certainty (or lack thereof) of the positions. And I mentioned that I was not interested in continuing the discussion. Not because I thought he was necessarily wrong. Rather just not helpful to the purpose of our mission here.

But I did not give him his marching papers or order him to cease and desist. (Not that it is my job — and thanks be to God for that.)

awareness · 12-19-2013, 04:15 PM

I will say to bro bearbear that if he has a real interest in The Cross he should read Jessie Penn-Lewis. True she may have had some "demon" killer on The Welsh Revival, but she's strong on the cross.
Check her out here -> http://jessiepennlewis.com/

countmeworthy · 12-19-2013, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

But I did not give him his marching papers or order him to cease and desist. (Not that it is my job — and thanks be to God for that.)

amen and amen.

He will be back. I am prophesying.

Though I truly don't know. I hope he returns.

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 05:53 PM

Sorry I owe you all an apology. I should have held my tongue. I left also because I felt I have nothing useful to add that would be constructive. Y'all are right because you have definitely made up your minds.

But please forgive me as I will do my best to forgive and walk in love. Pray for me also as I will pray for you.

The only suggestion I might put forward is for all of us to just empty our spirits before we come to God's word. As Watchman Nee taught we should do our best to come to God's word without any preconception.

I would really like free-grace doctrine to be true so I can have peace about the salvation of my nominal Christian friends and relatives. I wish God could just allow me to go full Joel Osteen preaching a positive message that would be much more palatable, but the more I read scripture the more I just can't make it honestly work in my spirit and in my mind. If any of you can come up with a strong exegetical argument I'm all ears.

That said I think my arguments for repentance being necessary for salvation suck compared to what was written here:
http://christianity.stackexchange.co...-for-salvation

This guy sums is up much better than I can!

But if any of you come around to questioning free grace or have any more questions about repentance you can email me at sam@eternityinourheart.com

And thanks awareness I will check out that Jesse Penn Lewis book when I can!

And sorry about being too pushy concerning this anti free-grace stuff. Part of my anxiety is because I believe Jesus is coming soon-- another reason to repent and get the message of repentance out! You may not believe repentance is necessary for salvation, but is it necessary for the rapture?

Matthew 24:42
Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Jesus tells us to "watch and pray that we will be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" in Luke 21:36. Maybe you will be spared from a piano falling on your head

But will Jesus rapture someone while they're lusting after a woman in their mind? Will he rapture you if you still have unforgiveness in your heart?

Love in Christ,

Sam

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Fear of God and fear of losing salvation aren't the same thing. Fear of God is biblical. Fear of losing eternal salvation that you've already gained is not.

You know what I just have to respond to this one

Fear of hell is fear of wrath which originates from God which really is fear of God.

Jesus even preached on the fear of God at the precipice of what y'all consider the "age of grace":

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

If Jesus knew all his followers had to do was to say the sinner's prayer after he died and rose, why would Jesus tell them to fear hell or fear God even?

The Lord knows those who are his, but those who belong to God must turn away from wickedness (e.g. repent).

2 Timothy 2:19
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Am I taking this verse out of context? Why I believe there is a seal and inscription here, hmmm.. Wait there's also a solid foundation that stands firm! Is there any possibility of God changing his mind on this one?

james73 · 12-19-2013, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

As Watchman Nee taught we should do our best to come to God's word without any preconception.

There is no hope of enlightenment if approaching the bible with the preconception it is "God's word".

You could not drink water if you needed to control the construction of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms from subatomic particles, the binding of the atoms into the water molecule, the interactions between gravity and the chemistry in your body, you would die of thirst while still on the four millionth page of quantum calculations for the first drop……. Drink it, don't analyze it

bearbear · 12-19-2013, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james73

There is no hope of enlightenment if approaching the bible with the preconception it is "God's word".

You could not drink water if you needed to control the construction of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms from subatomic particles, the binding of the atoms into the water molecule, the interactions between gravity and the chemistry in your body, you would die of thirst while still on the four millionth page of quantum calculations for the first drop……. Drink it, don't analyze it

God says we will be blessed if we meditate on his word:

This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. (Joshua 1:8 ESV)

Meditate
1 : to focus one's thoughts on : reflect on or ponder over 2 : to plan or project in the mind : intend, purpose

I've been able to be helped by so many scripture simply by meditating on it- reflecting on it, considering the context, even imagining scenarios where I can live out the word, checking to see if it can correct me and most importantly discern what God wants to say to me through it.

Whenever youth at my church ask me a question, I'll usually have a verse in my head that answers their question immediately. I can't explain how it happens except that God's word is living and ready to bust out whenever you need it if you keep it close to your heart

OBW · 12-20-2013, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james73

There is no hope of enlightenment if approaching the bible with the preconception it is "God's word".

You could not drink water if you needed to control the construction of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms from subatomic particles, the binding of the atoms into the water molecule, the interactions between gravity and the chemistry in your body, you would die of thirst while still on the four millionth page of quantum calculations for the first drop……. Drink it, don't analyze it

I have to agree with BB on this.

And while the Bible is not the end of God's word, it is the anchor for anything that we call God's word. If anyone, as Lee did, suggests that there is no more commandment of the law, they are speaking in opposition to God's word because Jesus said that the command not only remains, but is more intricately difficult than the original.

But then He did two things. He gave the great commandment, in two parts, that sums up the entirety of the commands. Then as the result of his death and resurrection, we now have the Spirit with us always to lean on and walk with as we live our lives to Him.

I don't get the meaning of the discourse on chemistry. It has no obvious parallel. Maybe he meant that we don't need to understand how it is made. But what he said was we couldn't drink if we had to make it. Mostly true. But hydrogen, oxygen, and a spark do quite fine. Just difficult to deal with the resulting explosion.

The chemistry in your body is irrelevant to making water. Water is water. once inside, your body does its thing.

As to Nee's comment about preconception, it is true. But there is no way to do that. So we must each bring our by-definition skewed view together with others who bring theirs. Only together do we find the truth.

And that is something neither Nee nor Lee could or would do. They were loners, thinking their own thoughts and teaching everyone else to follow them as if God spoke uniquely through them.

Cal · 12-20-2013, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Is that what Jesus taught? What if a false prophet came to your church pretending to be a Christian knowingly/unknowingly?

Matthew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

So you think Jesus' warning above gives you license to decide for everyone whether they are true Christians or not?

See, bearbear, it's that kind of response that makes you sound like a religionist. Instead of understanding my point as I meant it and as I'm sure you know I meant it, you take it to an extreme.

Just about every rule has an exception. It doesn't take a genius to jump on the exception to what someone says and quote a verse in order to back yourself up. This is becoming your pattern and it's boring. You sound like my pre-teen sons when they take the opposite side of what I say just to give me a hard time. If I'm not charmed by them I'm certainly not going to be charmed by you.

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

So you think Jesus' warning above gives you license to decide for everyone whether they are true Christians or not?

See, bearbear, it's that kind of response that makes you sound like a religionist. Instead of understanding my point as I meant it and as I'm sure you know I meant it, you take it to an extreme.

Just about every rule has an exception. It doesn't take a genius to jump on the exception to what someone says and quote a verse in order to back yourself up. This is becoming your pattern and it's boring. You sound like my pre-teen sons when they take the opposite side of what I say just to give me a hard time. If I'm not charmed by them I'm certainly not going to be charmed by you.

Sorry I wasn't trying to be a jerk- I was trying to get you to think. The scripture I quoted has real practical application. In my Christian worldview you have to be a bit more careful about the people you let in and have influence around the sheep because people's eternities (and not just a thousand years in outer darkness) are potentially at stake if they get stumbled by false teaching or other sorts of deception. Theology is systematic and people with different views on grace and salvation will have completely different views on God's word so I believe it is important to get the foundation right-- or at least be open to other views and see if God's word confirms it. This doesn't mean we have paranoia about everyone, we must always love our brothers and sisters in Christ but if you start seeing bad fruit (works of the flesh), you have to confront it.

Jesus warned in Acts 20:29
"I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;"

If salvation did not require a persistent faith then there would be no need to worry about fierce wolves in shepherds clothing. Just for the sake of illustration if someone like Witness Lee came to my church and tried to solicit donations to an RV company alarm bells would go off everywhere. Or say even my elder started doing this - the pastor would definitely have a word with him to correct him. If he doesn't repent, more people would confront him, until it goes to the whole church. If he still doesn't repent he gets the boot.

Matthew 18:15-17
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Here we see in this verse again that a person who doesn't repent is treated like an unbeliever-- you must be open to the possibility that such a person will meet the fate of an unbeliever if they don't repent even if they convincingly made a profession with faith. Throwing them out is the merciful thing to do because if they're never going to repent while in church, they may repent outside of it in the same way the prodigal son did after he left the Father's house.

Here's another verse about a servant of the Lord who meets the same fate as unbelievers:

Luke 12:46 (NIV)
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

The Greek word rendered 'unbelievers' is apistoj. Some translations say unfaithful however apistoj unequivocally means heathen or unbeliever (see here). He was once a servant of the Lord but he meets the same fate as those who never even acknowledged the Lord.

http://www.godrules.net/library/strongs2b/gre571.htm

Apostle John gave similar warnings and guidelines saying people who continue sinning without repenting are children of the devil:
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. (1 John 1:8)

and not even to greet people who don't teach according to Christ:
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. (2 John 10-11)

There's a reason why I quote scripture, and it's not *just* to bash it over people's head - of which I can be guilty and I'm sorry- I need to repent of abusing the gift of teaching in a fleshly manner.

But God's word is so dear to me now because it just speaks so well into everything I need in my life and I know it can be for others also if it is "rightly handled". I used to read commentaries way more than the bible because verses such as these just made no sense to me if people were saved already. Like why would Jesus spend so much time preaching on hell to *believers even* if all you had to do was pray the sinner's prayer-- why all these verses don't apply to me! so I'll just read them haphazardly! After realizing daily repentance is required for salvation (by the grace of God and the turning of our hearts) everything in the bible makes so much sense-- and now I desperately hang on to God's word because I know how much is at stake and in doing so I've come to know how much he really loves me and I don't need to fear him-- well that much at least! Man shall not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Another example is I treat the OT with so much more respect. For example read Ezekiel 18 and you realize all God ever wanted was man to repent! He desires obedience and not sacrifice which we do when we turn our hearts to him and the veil is taken away. His standards for repentance haven't changed from OT to NT! It gave so much meaning to the verse "God is the same yesterday today and forever" -- it used to be a doctrinal concept to me that just whizzed past my brain- now I realize God really wasn't kidding when he said he didn't change.

I believe if the LC's had treated God's word more seriously, it would be so much healthier and a lot of the debacles would have been avoided. Once you start straying from God's word you fall into many dangers without the advice of the One Counselor who breathed it.

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 08:24 AM

A challenge to everyone:

A piano has dropped on your head! You have just died and are now facing the door of eternity into heaven. You consider yourself a Christian who loved Jesus but never confronted your secret sinful habits (e.g. porn, drugs) or maybe your life is really clean but you've held jealousy, hatred or envy against someone that you haven't let go (see Galatians 5:19-21).

Expecting to get in to the door through the kingdom of heaven, Jesus approaches you and declares "I never knew you, depart from me you worker of lawlessness".

You stand speechless and try to confront him how you have lived your faith. You try to reason with him about the saints that you took care of and shepherded and the countless number of church meetings you attended-- the vacations you even skipped to attend conferences.

He points to 2 Timothy 2:19

"But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

You look down below his feet and realize he's standing on a stone monument which no one can move. On it is the very seal (which cannot change) bearing those words and you just realized that repentance was necessary for salvation.

He looks at you again and says:

"Haven't you read my book? I warned you that the road to life is narrow and that very few are saved."

"You may have sacrificed a lot for me, but I desire obedience and not sacrifice"

You plead with the Lord:

"Am I not a Christian? Am I not saved? I thought you only have to *believe* to be saved"

He looks at you for the one last time and says:

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Could this be you or me?

Can you argue from scripture how this scenario cannot be? Is there any wiggle room in 2 Timothy 2:19 for someone to belong to the Lord but not turn away from wickedness?

Can you come up with an exegetical argument from God's word why this won't happen to someone who is a Christian but is living an unrepentant life in unforgiveness, hatred, envy and strife?

awareness · 12-20-2013, 08:45 AM

Bro bear, have you bumped yer head? Cuz I've heard these kinds of stories before, of visits to heaven, from those that have experienced some kind of head injury ... or have died and come back.

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Bro bear, have you bumped yer head? Cuz I've heard these kinds of stories before, of visits to heaven, from those that have experienced some kind of head injury ... or have died and come back.

Perhaps I have. Perhaps I'm just crazy- or crazy about God? You be the judge.

Do you think this story is bogus? This Christian had a heart attack a casino, the fruit of his experience in outer darkness is that he is a pastor now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6va_5Wf2Pc

Cal · 12-20-2013, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Sorry I wasn't trying to be a jerk- I was trying to get you to think. The scripture I quoted has real practical application. In my Christian worldview you have to be a bit more careful about the people you let in and have influence around the sheep because people's eternities (and not just a thousand years in outer darkness) are potentially at stake if they get stumbled by false teaching or other sorts of deception.

If salvation did not require a persistent faith then there would be no need to worry about fierce wolves in shepherds clothing.

But Jesus said that no one can snatch us out of the Father's hand. So although false teachers can damage us, assuming we are initially saved they cannot cause us to become lost forever.

This why your interpretation that "no one being able to snatch us out of the Father's hand" still leaves us opportunity to leave the Father's hand on our own doesn't add up. Everything boils down to our choices. So either no one can snatch us means even we cannot snatch ourselves, or it means nothing. Because if everything boils down to our choice then what others can do is irrelevant and Jesus wouldn't have spoken of it the way he did.

One problem is you are placing too much emphasis on eternal salvation. Most of the Bible isn't talking about eternal salvation. It's talking about our condition in this life. Ironically, making everything about eternal salvation makes us just as self-absorbed as making everything about "making the Kingdom." It takes our eyes off the mission. If we know we are saved and secure, then we are free to focus our concern on others. Rather than pretending to be concerned about others so that we look good because we are so concerned about our own destiny.

Cal · 12-20-2013, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

A challenge to everyone:

A piano has dropped on your head!

Yes, we have all wondered about this. It's worth at least wondering about.

But at some point the other shoe has to drop and you have realize what such a view leaves you with: You can't say how good good enough is. You don't know. So basically you are left with trying your best to be good enough and hoping that is enough to be saved and never knowing if you are saved.

That's salvation by works, plain and simple. In fact, that is the capricious Muslim God. It's not about being justified by Christ's righteousness, it's about being justified by how good you performed.

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

One problem is you are placing too much emphasis on eternal salvation. Most of the Bible isn't talking about eternal salvation. It's talking about our condition in this life. Ironically, making everything about eternal salvation makes us just as self-absorbed as making everything about "making the Kingdom." It takes our eyes off the mission. If we know we are saved and secure, they we are free to focus our concern on others. Rather than pretending to be concerned about others so that we look good because we are so concerned about our own destiny.

On the other hand if your mom and dad were just nominal Christians-- or say you had a nephew who was a believer but was holding on to unforgiveness. Knowing that his salvation was at stake, would you take any means necessary to guide him to forgive? If you knew his salvation was secure wouldn't you be more likely to brush it off? Or whatabout a brother's or sister's porn habit? How likely would you be to confront him about it in either scenario?

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Yes, we have all wondered about this. It's worth at least wondering about.

But at some point the other shoe has to drop and you have realize what such a view leaves you with: You can't say how good good enough is. You don't know. So basically you are left with trying your best to be good enough and hoping that is enough to be saved and never knowing if you are saved.

That's salvation by works, plain and simple. In fact, that is the capricious Muslim God. It's not about being justified by Christ's righteousness, it's about being justified by how good you performed.

We'll never be perfect in this life and we won't be. We'll be okay as long as we strive for it by walking according to the spirit-- by which we will have no condemnation (Romans 8)-- but we must be obedient to the Spirit!

Phil 3:12 (NLT)
I don't mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me.

God knows our heart and as long as we are on the narrow path to life which we walk on by living according to the spirit we will be okay. But there is an expectation of growing in sanctification and Peter talks about this. In fact he tells us believers to confirm our calling and election! Think about that!

2 Peter 1:5
For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

Ohio · 12-20-2013, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

A challenge to everyone:

A piano has dropped on your head! You have just died and are now facing the door of eternity into heaven. You consider yourself a Christian who loved Jesus but never confronted your secret sinful habits (e.g. porn, drugs) or maybe your life is really clean but you've held jealousy, hatred or envy against someone that you haven't let go (see Galatians 5:19-21).

Expecting to get in to the door through the kingdom of heaven, Jesus approaches you and declares "I never knew you, depart from me you worker of lawlessness".

You stand speechless and try to confront him how you have lived your faith. You try to reason with him about the saints that you took care of and shepherded and the countless number of church meetings you attended-- the vacations you even skipped to attend conferences.

He points to 2 Timothy 2:19 "But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

You look down below his feet and realize he's standing on a stone monument which no one can move. On it is the very seal (which cannot change) bearing those words and you just realized that repentance was necessary for salvation.

He looks at you again and says:

"Haven't you read my book? I warned you that the road to life is narrow and that very few are saved."

"You may have sacrificed a lot for me, but I desire obedience and not sacrifice"

You plead with the Lord:

"Am I not a Christian? Am I not saved? I thought you only have to *believe* to be saved"

He looks at you for the one last time and says:

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Could this be you or me?

Can you argue from scripture how this scenario cannot be? Is there any wiggle room in 2 Timothy 2:19 for someone to belong to the Lord but not turn away from wickedness?

Can you come up with an exegetical argument from God's word why this won't happen to someone who is a Christian but is living an unrepentant life in unforgiveness, hatred, envy and strife?

Name me some people in the Bible who have made it into your utopian heaven, because according to your standards none of the apostles have made it either.

You said "very few are saved." That's three to me.

Who are these three? Can't be Abraham, David, or Peter -- we know all about their history of "disobedience." All the world knows their stories. When they arrived at your "utopian heaven," Jesus ran out to slam the door, saying, "nope, can't recognize any of you guys."

Bear, just because you can spout off lots of verses condemning all the rest of us, doesn't give you much hope either. The Pharisees tried that same strategy on Jesus.

Cal · 12-20-2013, 09:33 AM

Also, if being good enough is what it takes to gain eternal salvation, then heaven's going to be pretty empty, because no one is good is enough, because God's standard is perfection. That's why Christ had to die. One sin is one sin too many. The idea that Christ died, but you have to keep repenting up until the microsecond you die in order to be eternally saved is silliness. In any event, saying our eternal salvation depends on Christ plus our works is an insult to Christ and his death and resurrection.

What part of this is unclear?

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:38-39

I think "anything else in all creation" includes ourselves.

awareness · 12-20-2013, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Perhaps I have. Perhaps I'm just crazy- or crazy about God? You be the judge.

Do you think this story is bogus? This Christian had a heart attack a casino, the fruit of his experience in outer darkness is that he is a pastor now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6va_5Wf2Pc

"He's a good guy."

Thanks for sharing that bearbear. I love those kinds of stories. Most I've read go to heaven and come back. The stories of going to hell are rare, comparatively speakin'.

But I can't help but factor these stories as : The brain is a very funny and unpredictable organ.

Ohio · 12-20-2013, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's salvation by works, plain and simple. In fact, that is the capricious Muslim God. It's not about being justified by Christ's righteousness, it's about being justified by how good you performed.

That's why many Muslims won't take a chance with a capricious Muslim God who can point out all their failures. Hence they want all the "guarantees" that come with strapping bombs around their waist.

Cal · 12-20-2013, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

On the other hand if your mom and dad were just nominal Christians-- or say you had a nephew who was a believer but was holding on to unforgiveness. Knowing that his salvation was at stake, would you take any means necessary to guide him to forgive? If you knew his salvation was secure wouldn't you be more likely to brush it off? Or whatabout a brother's or sister's porn habit? How likely would you be to confront him about it in either scenario?

As I've said before, I've seen no indication that being insecure about eternal salvation has made anyone a better Christian. What it makes them is more worried.

I have seen however, how the sense of being eternally secure makes people powerful witnesses for Christ. They overflow with divine peace and assurance that speaks into people lives. Being ever worried about eternal salvation just makes people nervous, and no one is attracted to nervousness.

Sure, someone who thinks he needs to be working for salvation is probably going to be more busy. But he won't necessarily be more effective.

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Also, if being good enough is what it takes to make to eternal salvation, then heaven's going to be pretty empty, because no one is good is enough, because God's standard is perfection. That's why Christ had to die. One sin is one sin too many. The idea that Christ died, but you have to keep repenting up until the microsecond you die in order to be eternally saved is silliness. In any event, saying our eternal salvation depends on Christ plus our works is an insult to Christ and his death and resurrection.

What part of this is unclear?

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8:38-39

I think "anything else in all creation" includes ourselves.

That's a wonderful promise but the context of that passage is basically the story of Job who believed that God was with him through all his trials. Paul was trying to comfort some believers who were freaking out that God had abandoned them because of their circumstances. He's saying don't worry because no matter what things seem like God will never abandon you.

Romans 8:33
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

"He's a good guy."

Thanks for sharing that bearbear. I love those kinds of stories. Most I've read go to heaven and come back. The stories of going to hell are rare, comparatively speakin'.

But I can't help but factor these stories as : The brain is a very funny and unpredictable organ.

I never took NDE's seriously either until I read Dr. Eben Alexander's account. He was a neurosurgeon at Harvard who contracted viral meningitis shutting down his brain. He knew that he shouldn't have experienced what he saw because the portion of his brain responsible for hallucinations and dreams was completely shut down-- yet he experienced a trip to heaven that made real life seem like a dream.

After he came back to life, he received a photo in the mail of his long lost adopted sister whom he'd never seen. Her face was exactly like the person who was guiding him through heaven.

http://www.newsweek.com/proof-heaven...fterlife-65327

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

As I've said before, I've seen no indication that being insecure about eternal salvation has made anyone a better Christian. What it makes them is more worried.

I have seen however, how the sense of being eternally secure makes people powerful witnesses for Christ. They overflow with divine peace and assurance that speaks into people lives. Being ever worried about eternal salvation just makes people nervous, and no one is attracted to nervousness.

Sure, someone who thinks he needs to be working for salvation is probably going to be more busy. But he won't necessarily be more effective.

I think as OBW and I have discussed it's possible to reach such a point of assurance if you read the passages in Galatians and 1 Peter which give us guidelines to see if we are walking in the faith.

At this point of maturity, you're more than free to minister to others and help to them to walk the line of life. When temptation comes, you're more equipped not to yield to it.

Think what was going through Watchman Nee and Witness Lee's mind when temptation came. Why do you think they yielded to it? They must have at one time thought "hey I'm saved anyway right? It may be a 1000 years, but what's that compared to eternity?"

And I don't judge them because Satan always attacks spiritual leaders the most. He knows if he can stumble the top of the pyramid, then he can wreak havoc on the flock. Our warfare is not against flesh and blood but against the powers and principalities in the air.

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Ohio · 12-20-2013, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

He looks at you again and says:

"Haven't you read my book? I warned you that the road to life is narrow and that very few are saved."

"You may have sacrificed a lot for me, but I desire obedience and not sacrifice"

You plead with the Lord:

"Am I not a Christian? Am I not saved? I thought you only have to *believe* to be saved"

BearBear, what you now speak is worse than distorted or misinformed, you have now moved into heresy and the absurd.

I Samuel 15.22 "Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams."

You took a verse out of context, spoken by Samuel to King Saul after disobeying God, and now applied it to all Christians. When did any of us sacrifice a ram?

Have you become the Judge of all? You are now playing God, and that's a dangerous act to follow. You are all alone on you soapbox, perhaps you should start reading the Bible for yourself, and start repenting.

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

BearBear, what you now speak is worse than distorted or misinformed, you have now moved into heresy and the absurd.

I Samuel 15.22 "Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams."

You took a verse out of context, spoken by Samuel to King Saul after disobeying God, and now applied it to all Christians. When did any of us sacrifice a ram?

Have you become the Judge of all? You are now playing God, and that's a dangerous act to follow. You are all alone on you soapbox, perhaps you should start reading the Bible for yourself, and start repenting.

Hmm I'm not the judge-- I shouldn't even call myself a teacher but just a guide. We only have One Teacher. Maybe I will be facing the door to eternity myself if I'm not careful. My greatest fear is that in preaching repentance I would be disqualified myself. So yes you're right I need to repent and forgive.

1 Cor 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control,[b] lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Name me some people in the Bible who have made it into your utopian heaven, because according to your standards none of the apostles have made it either.

You said "very few are saved." That's three to me.

Who are these three? Can't be Abraham, David, or Peter -- we know all about their history of "disobedience." All the world knows their stories. When they arrived at your "utopian heaven," Jesus ran out to slam the door, saying, "nope, can't recognize any of you guys."

Bear, just because you can spout off lots of verses condemning all the rest of us, doesn't give you much hope either. The Pharisees tried that same strategy on Jesus.

So if you read 2 Timothy 2:19 carefully it says "depart from wickedness" which is different from "being separated from wickedness". God is merciful and loving and only lays on us the burden to walk towards the right direction regardless of where we are at.

Repentance is "turning" not total sanctification.

It just means we turn around where we'll currently walking. Before we were walking towards the door the leads to death, after repenting we are on the path that leads to life. We may be even near the pits of hell like the thief was on the cross, but he was saved because he 'turned'.

When we repent and turn we will experience true rest. It may be hard but we all have total control over our hearts.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

awareness · 12-20-2013, 10:08 AM

bearbear, didn't you say you were in the local church? How long, if I may ask?

How can you still be workin' out repentance and the cross?

You must be young ... and filled with excitement over discovering these things ... and obviously excited to share them.

Don't let us beat you up, and slow you down. Keep on keepin' on. Just hang on to that which will teach you all things. Yer future is unknown, and wide open. Stay open .. and you'll likely learn more than I know,

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

bearbear, didn't you say you were in the local church? How long, if I may ask?

How can you still be workin' out repentance and the cross?

You must be young ... and filled with excitement over discovering these things ... and obviously excited to share them.

Don't let us beat you up, and slow you down. Keep on keepin' on. Just hang on to that which will teach you all things. Yer future is unknown, and wide open.

Yes I'm only 31 I left a few years ago. My Dad was a full-timer in the midwest so I wasn't just a nominal member. I've been through countless trainings, conferences, summer schools-- even the "God Ordained Way" training here in California.

After I left and discovered the bible doesn't really teach free grace it was a life-shattering experience. I felt like it was becoming a Christian all over again and it was exciting.

Every passage I read in the bible finally came alive, and I understood the importance of holding on to God's promises, finally asked God to help me confront the weak areas of my life which he did and gave all of my heart to the Lord. I also saw not just spiritual fruit in my life, but my friends around me were finally believing in Jesus! And God in his love let me be a part of their story of redemption!

I also built the boldness to witness to people which I never had in the LCs. Back then the way they taught us to preach the gospel was like being a BFA salesman. But it was so freeing that I could actually just try to sell people on *Jesus* and not any church or ministry. And it was surreal because the Lord also seemed to be answering everyone of my prayers! I have some pretty crazy stories I'd like to share at later time. But I'm even in some sense *scared* of praying now because I know that God will answer it if I pray according to his will. He is really a living God!

That said isn't it important to get the basics right? I thought I was saved, but I never felt the need to deal with carnal sins like porn all my life in the LCs because they never stressed the need for repentance.

In the LCs we looked down on people like Billy Graham because we thought he was just a simple minded Christian who didn't know the higher truths.

But God wants us to get the basics right! things like mercy, love and forgiveness! and especially the cross! and repentance!

Matthew 24
23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

countmeworthy · 12-20-2013, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Yes I'm only 31 I left a few years ago. My Dad was a full-timer in the midwest so I wasn't just a nominal member. I've been through countless trainings, conferences, summer schools-- even the "God Ordained Way" training here in California.

After I left and discovered the bible doesn't really teach free grace it was a life-shattering experience. I felt like it was becoming a Christian all over again and it was exciting.

Every passage I read in the bible finally came alive, and I understood the importance of holding on to God's promises, finally asked God to help me confront the weak areas of my life which he did and gave all of my heart to the Lord. I also saw not just spiritual fruit in my life, but my friends around me were finally believing in Jesus! And God in his love let me be a part of their story of redemption!

I also built the boldness to witness to people which I never had in the LCs. Back then the way they taught us to preach the gospel was like being a BFA salesman. But it was so freeing that I could actually just try to sell people on *Jesus* and not any church or ministry. And it was surreal because the Lord also seemed to be answering everyone of my prayers! I have some pretty crazy stories I'd like to share at later time. But I'm even in some sense *scared* of praying now because I know that God will answer it if I pray according to his will. He is really a living God!

That said isn't it important to get the basics right? I thought I was saved, but I never felt the need to deal with carnal sins like porn all my life in the LCs because they never stressed the need for repentance.

In the LCs we looked down on people like Billy Graham because we thought he was just a simple minded Christian who didn't know the higher truths.

But God wants us to get the basics right! things like mercy, love and forgiveness! and especially the cross! and repentance!

Matthew 24
23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Great testimony bear-bear. Are your parents & siblings still in the LC?

Ohio · 12-20-2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Yes I'm only 31 I left a few years ago. My Dad was a full-timer in the midwest so I wasn't just a nominal member. I've been through countless trainings, conferences, summer schools-- even the "God Ordained Way" training here in California.

Hey Sam, did you have an older brother named Paul?

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Great testimony bear-bear. Are your parents & siblings still in the LC?

Yes my parents are actually elders of a TC LC that broke away. He's actually invited me over to preach about repentance to the congregation this winter break. My dad no longer adheres to free grace either and he wants me to help his church learn about repentance-- he was very resistant to my arguments at first, but I wore him down eventually-- buhahaha. I already went through the gauntlet of many arguments for free grace from my dad so I am very well equipped for this task. Yet it's very doable however because eventually you have to face the reality that it's just not in the bible if you really believe in sola scripture.

The verse that won him over was this Luke 12:46-- I mean how can you argue against verses like this?

Luke 12:46 (NIV)
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

He also researched NDEs for himself and reached the same conclusions I did.

My brother and his wife are still in LCs. My sister in law is a FT grad, so yea... I'm probably close to being a heretic to her like Ohio said I was

But she loves the Lord still so praise God!

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hey Sam, did you have an older brother named Paul?

Yes, I'm Samuel Hsiung and I grew up in Cleveland. I even lived two years in that meeting hall - probably the funnest years of my life. It was like having a gynormous backyard!

Ohio · 12-20-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Yes my parents are actually elders of a TC LC that broke away. He's actually invited me over to preach about repentance to the congregation this winter break. My dad no longer adheres to free grace either and he wants me to help his church learn about repentance-- he was very resistant to my arguments at first, but I wore him down eventually-- buhahaha.

How did that work out with your brother Paul?

We were pretty close until he became a Trojan.

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 12:52 PM

His wife will probably never leave the LC and he has a lot of friends where he's at so he'd probably never entertain the thought of leaving. You can't stay in the local church and reject free grace- it just wouldn't work. He hasn't been very open to my sharing but I understand his situation. My dad on the other hand has no such attachments because his church broke away- Hallelujah! I think it was really God preparing everything.

I felt my brother also kind of dismissed me because I meet in one of those "Charismatic" churches. But Jesus told us to judge people by their fruit. I've never seen any Christians who were more loving, forgiving and full of mercy until I found the church I'm at. My first impression after a couple months was like-- "Wow you're telling me that such Christians exist?"

I was blown away by their teachings on forgiveness. I was never taught that in LC! I saw testimonies of how people's lives were changed after they forgave their enemies. It was like watching Jesus' words and teachings not just stay as doctrine but by being applied- coming to life through people. The most insane one was this short boy who was bullied all his life. One day he broke down and just couldn't take it anymore, but his Dad pushed him to forgive his bully. He finally did and he'd go to extraordinary lengths to help him with his homework, answer his questions, help him with his bags etc. The love he showed blew the bully's mind away and eventually they became friends. They went on to start a prayer club for the school and it grew to become a school-wide revival resulting in the salvation of many kids-- ALL FROM JUST ONE ACT OF FORGIVENESS. Now the bully is a missionary somewhere in a third world country.

Think about what we were missing in the LCs by concentrating on higher truths- and missing things like forgiveness!

What also blew me away is one day I realized that I could *see* this spiritual light -- almost a glowing from some of the more mature members in my church. They loved Jesus and others so much that you could just see it with your spiritual eyes! The scripture "you are the light of the world so let your light shine" became real to me- and not just doctrine! I told the Lord I want to let my light shine too like them. I want to glorify God through my daily interactions with people.

Yet these people don't believe in free grace, they hold to an Arminian view of scripture-- yet they love Jesus so much! More than anyone I've met!

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

BearBear
I Samuel 15.22 "Samuel said, "Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams."

You took a verse out of context, spoken by Samuel to King Saul after disobeying God, and now applied it to all Christians. When did any of us sacrifice a ram?

Jesus said something similar - I desire mercy and not sacrifice and he told us to meditate on what it means. Mercy is not the same thing as obedience-- but you could say mercy results from obedience?

Yes we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore, but the OT to me is very valid still as it was for the early church who didn't have the NT. Let me explain -- the act of sacrificing an animal didn't atone for the sin by itself. According to Psalms 49:7,15 God demands a perfect and sinless life to pay for sin. The animals who are also corrupted by sin don't meet that criteria. God just wanted the Israelites to sacrifice to point to the *REAL* sacrifice of the Messiah that would happen in 33AD. Sacrifice was an act of faith-- but it's also in vain without repentance of the heart.

Read Ezekiel 18 and Malachi and other scripture and you'll realize that sacrifice without repentance is not acceptable to God. Even the Orthodox Jews today, descendants of the ancient Pharisees, have this understanding. How does this apply to Christians today?

God has provided the sacrifice to us through Jesus Christ, but he's really worried about our hearts. He wants our hearts to turn away from sin and the desires of our flesh unto him. Confession of sins (which is like applying the blood of the sacrifice) is not enough if our hearts stay the same.

Yet the sacrifice is still important because God wants to convey that sin is a serious matter that demands payment: the shedding of blood.

I've written more about this here: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...epentance.html

Isaiah 29:14
And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men...

Ohio · 12-20-2013, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

His wife will probably never leave the LC and he has a lot of friends where he's at so he'd probably never entertain the thought of leaving.

When I first met you, about ten years ago or so, I got the impression that you were just another lazy, know-it-all, yet very smart, 2nd generation church kid who lived off the many entitlements passed down from his parents. I am actually happy, very happy, to see you digging into the Word on your own. (And so excited to hear that your brother Paul has married.)

For many years your dear brother Paul prayed for you. I actually prayed together with him for you! He always believed that you would have a sober turn to the Lord, and prayed persistently for you. Though he was a brilliant guy, I was always impressed with his simple love for the Lord Jesus, and his love for all the brothers and sisters. Though he was in a demanding grad school, with an exhausting schedule for sure, I never got the impression that he was under a "heavy" load. Instead, he seemed to have all the time in the world for others. At times, I honestly marveled at his love and service.

I think you owe your brother a lot. For you to critique his faith, his beliefs, or his service is not pleasing to our Heavenly Father. But that is just my opinion.

God bless you!

bearbear · 12-20-2013, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I first met you, about ten years ago or so, I got the impression that you were just another lazy, know-it-all, yet very smart, 2nd generation church kid who lived off the many entitlements passed down from his parents. I am actually happy, very happy, to see you digging into the Word on your own. (And so excited to hear that your brother Paul has married.)

For many years your dear brother Paul prayed for you. I actually prayed together with him for you! He always believed that you would have a sober turn to the Lord, and prayed persistently for you. Though he was a brilliant guy, I was always impressed with his simple love for the Lord Jesus, and his love for all the brothers and sisters. Though he was in a demanding grad school, with an exhausting schedule for sure, I never got the impression that he was under a "heavy" load. Instead, he seemed to have all the time in the world for others. At times, I honestly marveled at his love and service.

I think you owe your brother a lot. For you to critique his faith, his beliefs, or his service is not pleasing to our Heavenly Father. But that is just my opinion.

God bless you!

That's amazing you guys prayed for me thank you! Interesting how things can come full circle. God is good. And thank you for telling me that. I need to be more thankful to him.

Sorry I didn't mean to critique my brother's faith because I would probably do the same in his shoes. I mean it's really hard to go against your wife. I would never have left LC if my wife wasn't on board-- she was also die hard LC. Actually I did a crazy prayer asking God to open the door through my wife so we could both decide to leave together and God miraculously answered our prayer! I found out later her brother was also praying for us to leave. I can describe this later.

The problem with the internet is you can't gauge my tone of voice when you read the text. I still love my brother and we continue to meet up a lot.

I will do more to lift my brother and his wife in prayer because our warfare is spiritual and not in the physical realm, because I said all I could to him. Though it's not like you can't get to heaven in the LC, my worry is just about people yielding to temptation under free grace.

I see the destruction of this doctrine in my relatives and family right now. In the past I told my Dad, you gotta make sure your brothers (my uncles) are walking in the faith! And he told me "yea I tell them to go to the meetings but they don't. that's okay because they believed in Jesus 20 years ago!" and just left it at that. Now that he knows their salvation is at stake I'm sure now we can work together to encourage our relatives to live according to their faith.

james73 · 12-20-2013, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

I don't get the meaning of the discourse on chemistry. It has no obvious parallel. Maybe he meant that we don't need to understand how it is made. But what he said was we couldn't drink if we had to make it. Mostly true. But hydrogen, oxygen, and a spark do quite fine. Just difficult to deal with the resulting explosion.

The chemistry in your body is irrelevant to making water. Water is water. once inside, your body does its thing.

Not what I meant to say - of course, we can make water from H and O--- I meant, what if we had to consciously control the absorption of water by our body, like a very complicated game of Tetris, rather than, as you said, the body just doing its thing? Or more complicated yet, what if we actually had to synthesis our own H and O from nothing but energy and first principles before we could combine them to make the water molecule in the first place? I meant we couldn't drink it not because it would be undrinkable but because it would take forever to make it, we'd die of thirst first. But of course, we don't need to do all this, we have water, we drink it, and, as you said, the body just does its thing.

Ok chemistry discourse II over

The parallel was this, and the point is open to debate, but this is what I believe: the divine is exactly the same. The "body" does its thing. The divine is in us no matter we understand it, know it, believe it, disbelieve it, whether we sin or repent or just go about a humdrum existence. The divine is in murderers, prostitutes and evil lying pastors, just as it is in bearbear, OBW and me.

Being human, having this fruit of knowledge, is a barrier to the divine. "Sin" and "guilt" are distractions - if I am lusting after a woman on the street, I am missing the eternal truth of the beauty and cosmic "whatever you call it" around me, because I am stuck in petty human knowledge and desire, most of it driven by ego. If I steal to get a better life, or am jealous, or envy, or any of those ten commandments, I am missing a point somewhere. If I do not love, I am missing the divine within me. It's not that these are sins to be judged, they are barriers to seeing what is already in us. A sin is a barrier.

We are made in God's image, that part is evident with or without biblical authority, we can create, we can contemplate, think, destroy, love. We don't need to go to all these intellectual lengths or jump through repentance hoops to be "saved", or seek this eternal kingdom or whatever doctrine you follow. It's all a distraction - the "eternal life" is here and now.

Forget "near death experiences", have a "near life experience"! Or even better, a genuine life experience--- wake up and see that eternity is running in you, "God" doing its thing, and not just on those who read a certain book or call it a certain name or believe a particular story. God, like water, is working in all humans, and the path to liberation and eternal bliss is merely removing the barriers to seeing this. Religion can help remove those barriers, but when it becomes so cumbersome and prescriptive, it builds more barriers than it removes.

bearbear · 12-21-2013, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

But what if I have a bad week and then get hit by a car?

What if I check out a girl and a piano falls on my head?

I gave this question some more thought and I believe it deserves a better answer than the one liner I gave. That said this is one of my favorite promises in the bible that I like to pray over myself (and can also be prayed over others):

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

If you believe God has begun a good work in you-- he is faithful to complete it! (Yet the bible also says God is faithful even when we are unfaithful.. so it's possible that both our faiths have to connect in order to 'activate' this promise. The story of the prodigal son comes to mind-- when the Father received the son back he said this son of mine was once 'dead' but is now 'alive! the son was dead to the Father while he was away, but 'alive' after he repented.)

After coming to the realization that my salvation wasn't all that assured as I thought it was I felt a mix of emotions.

1. Fear of God and his wrath
2. EXTREMELY thankful and worshipful to God he kept me alive long enough to repent-- there were many close calls in my life where the story of my life would have ended and I would have likely ended up in outer darkness or hell for eternity -- looking back at my life I think my guardian angel was very busy.. I think God had mercy on me because I "didn't know what I was doing" I was ignorant of true biblical grace.

I went through a period of complete and abject fear of hell and losing my salvation in cases similar to a piano falling on my head after a trite sin.

I used to have a habit of turning on the audio bible on my computer every morning before I sat down for breakfast. One day as I did this routine and started chewing on my instant oatmeal, I meditated in my head again about how much I feared God. Immediately the voice of the audio bible in the background quoted 1 John 4:18 -- "perfect love casts out fear". I freaked out because I knew it was the Father speaking to me. He wanted to cast out my fear by experiencing Papa God's perfect love! Right then I felt a wave of God's love wash over me. I experienced Psalms 147:11 - God was delighting in me because I feared him!

Since then God has brought me on a journey to experience just how much he loves and cares for me. I've been slowly brought to a level of intimacy with him that I feel I would never throw away for *anything*. Part of this is from so many answered prayers. I felt so humbled that the creator of the universe would even listen to my prayers-- even the ones I forgot about and that he reminded me of over and over again. The bible tells us to unceasingly pray-- and I like how Perry Stone puts it -- you do this because God loves to answer his children's prayers to show how much he loves them.

I've become addicted to his presence. Yesterday I was able to share the gospel (well I didn't mention Jesus yet, but I got him to think hard about his eternity and gave him a card to my website that preaches Jesus :]) with the owner of an auto shop. He became so excited when I started sharing about NDEs to heaven and the story of Dr. Eben Alexander that he got a pencil and started writing stuff down. I believe God caused someone to hit my parked car just so I could preach to him. One of his employees was supposed to drive me home after I dropped off my car, but it didn't pan out and he personally drove me home in his truck. Perhaps God wanted me to touch him so he could get his whole Auto Shop saved. After many experiences like this I just feel *SO* satisfied by God's presence. I am addicted to it!

I feel like when you are in God's presence the very idea of sin is disgusting because it affects your relationship with him. Last night Carol pointed me to Psalms 51-- a story of what true repentance looks like -- and she was so right!

God accepted David's repentance because he had the right heart. He took full responsibility for what he did by saying "It was only against you O God that I have sinned!"-- he wasn't just remorseful that he messed up bad -- but he was most of all scared that he would lose God's presence, something that he treasured more than anything in the world ! ("cast me not away from thy presence and remove not thy Holy Spirit from me!"). True repentance is turning your heart to the Lord-- or in other words becoming so desperate to restore your relationship with God to encounter his presence again -- or as John Piper would put it "desiring God"!

Compare this to Judas' false repentance that drove him to suicide. He didn't have the intimacy with God that David had, but only had worldly grief that leads to death (2 Cor 7:10) -- in other words shame drove him to suicide. Shame always comes from the enemy and drives us to sink further. We will never experience shame from God because Jesus bore the shame we deserved as he died on the cross. When the Holy Spirit convicts us he always provides us with the grace to repent - Unlike Allah our God is still a good God! Contrary to the most profound wisdom human philosophy can muster, I've only actually experienced God's goodness and love to the fullest after realizing this same God could also cast me to hell, because only then could I experience *just how much* he didn't want me to be there - and that was love!-- does that make any sense? As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are God's ways higher than man's.

Or look at Balaam who also shared a close relationship with God in terms of communication that many other OT prophets would have envied. He was close to God, but he was not intimate with him. He knew God loved Israel, he knew God's ways but he never put his neck out there to love what God loved and that was Israel. The whole story of Numbers 22 is a sad tale of a fence sitter who couldn't decide between God and the riches Balaak had to offer. If Balaam truly loved God, he would have also loved God's desire -- and that is Israel. But by his actions he demonstrated that Yahweh was not his Lord, but rather money.

Jesus told Peter that if he truly loved him he would shepherd his sheep. Because Christ loves the church so much, when we love God we will also love what he loves-- the church! Many of us may encounter situations where we will be tempted to choose between the riches of the world and care of his sheep. The only way to overcome this is through intimacy with God.

This possibly explains how God could allow many "Christians" who were close to God in terms of communication and activities (going to Church, small group, reading bible, even praying) but not intimacy to be in for a big surprise when they reach the gates of heaven. If I'm right, isn't it interesting that salvation by faith alone shut these people out? Think about it- If salvation was by works that would actually be easier than having true biblical faith in God which comes from the heart! (Read Matthew 7, people thought their works could save them but Jesus says he never knew them! Think about that!) Perhaps that's why we could only be saved by a faith that God can give us which he does when the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in us after we open our hearts to Jesus. This sounds harsh but I'm just telling it how I see it in the bible. I'm not trying to be God. If I was God, I'd probably just let everyone in because the thought of eternal conscious torment in hell for even the worst human that ever lived is terrifying-- but God's wisdom is far beyond my own understanding.

Not to plug my blog again but I also actually wrote about this a few days ago for those interested

I analyze why Judas went to hell if Jesus called him a friend (this was a question a few had at a single men's small group)

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-if-jesus.html

God Bless You All! I pray this over myself and my family everyday and hope you will too: "And surely goodness and mercy shall follow you all days of your life and you will dwell in the house of the Lord FOREVER." May we all experience the love of Papa God. Amen.

And here is a song about Papa God's love that I want to bless you all with. It's called "Abba I belong to you":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GeVf1XQOPg

countmeworthy · 12-21-2013, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

That said this is one of my favorite promises in the bible that I like to pray over myself (and can also be prayed over others):

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

This is one of my most comforting scriptures as well. I speak it with THANSKGIVING over myself and often pray this scripture over people, especially those struggling in their walk with the Lord. It gives me Peace & the burden of worry is lifted. I often remind the Lord Jesus when I am worried about someone that He is THEIR Savior too. I remind myself I am not their savior.

Quote:

After coming to the realization that my salvation wasn't all that assured as I thought it was I felt a mix of emotions.

1. Fear of God and his wrath
2. EXTREMELY thankful and worshipful to God he kept me alive long enough to repent-- there were many close calls in my life where the story of my life would have ended and I would have likely ended up in outer darkness or hell for eternity

That is how I came to realize Salvation is a process. Initially I was eternally saved. I was washed & cleansed by the Precious Blood of Jesus. When I say "Precious", please know I am not quoting or simply saying a cliche. NO. The Blood of Jesus is very, very PRECIOUS to me. So much so that as I started typing how Precious His Blood is to me, my eyes welled up with tears. I KNOW the Power and I have a very deep appreciation of it.

In fact, I once shared with an LSMr an experience I had when I applied (prayed) the Blood of Jesus over me. Her reaction was WOW! then turned to her spouse & told him (as if they had never experienced the power of the Blood, that I really knew the power of the Blood. My reaction to her was "and you don't??? ' UH..UH..Uh.. yeah but not like you do.

Then as my personal life evolved, I walked and wallowed through the valley of the shadow of death, and

etc... but being 'alone' is how the Word of God actually came to LIFE for me. I experienced His Mercy, His Forgiveness, His Love, His Presence, His Anointing. A PROCESS!

Quote:

-- looking back at my life I think my guardian angel was very busy..

Oh YES indeed !!! I 'love' my angels !! ok...let me clarify that comment. I have a very deep appreciation for my angels because they have taken very good care of me. That I know of I have at least two of them. Hopefully more. But I know I have two guardian angels.

How do I know? Glad you asked.

Because I have seen my angels. At least on one occasion. In fact it was while I was still in the LC. I was on my way to a meeting and got T-boned by a car on the drivers side. I was driving. My car spun around & when it stopped I looked up and there were 2 very tall angels working by the front tire. They did not look at me. And they were almost see through white. They had wings and shoulder length hair. They blended into a milky whiteness.

I saw them for a split second & didn't think anything of them. In fact I quickly forgot about them. It was not until my car was repaired & the guy told me I was fortunate I was alive & not hurt because there was a lot of damage inside my front door. But the panel had bounced out and so the damage did not show up. It was right then, I remembered seeing 2 angels working by the front tire. I believe they moved the impact away from me.

I have had other experiences of them protecting me but that is the only time I have actually seen angels with wings.

I can't wait to meet them personally and thank them for being such awesome bodyguards !!! May the LORD GOD bless them and reward them for a job well done !!!

Now... hold on to your seats. Several years ago I was at the grocery store, in a lot of pain holding on to the grocery cart for dear life. As I was pushing it very slowly, I had my head tilted looking at the produce. I was not looking straight ahead in other words.

I then felt someone give my cart a slight push getting my attention at the same time hearing a man say "Watch it." I glanced up & quickly apologized for not paying attention. Then with a very LOUD VOICE as if he was holding a megaphone, he said to me "Don't be sorry. You're FABULOUS!" I turned to look at him and he was walking backwards looking at me with a big smile. While I smiled back, I was embarrassed as I felt the entire store heard him.

But to my 'shame', the guy was NOT ATTRACTIVE in the least !!! He was slim, about 5'7, had shoulder length scraggly brown hair, mustache & beard, scraggly, wearing blue jeans & a tucked in button down shirt. He was dressed neatly but not attractive in the least !!

I had just entered the grocery store & so had he. So now I was afraid I was going to run into him. and LORD Have Mercy on me if I saw Him again.

I came home & told a friend. She right away told me it was either an angel or Jesus Himself. For the longest time I thought it was an angel. But recently I came across Isaiah 53:1-3

Quote:

Who has believed our report?
and to whom is the Arm of the Lord revealed? He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.

I thought of my experience of many years ago. Yep...that was Jesus alright.

And who of you has believed my report, pray tell?

More later !
Carol

bearbear · 12-22-2013, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

That is how I came to realize Salvation is a process. Initially I was eternally saved. I was washed & cleansed by the Precious Blood of Jesus. When I say "Precious", please know I am not quoting or simply saying a cliche. NO. The Blood of Jesus is very, very PRECIOUS to me. So much so that as I started typing how Precious His Blood is to me, my eyes welled up with tears. I KNOW the Power and I have a very deep appreciation of it.

I used to thank God for washing me and cleansing me in his blood while living in sin. After rejecting free grace and coming to repentance, I experienced this in a living way and not just doctrinally. When God made his home in my heart and I experienced his manifest presence, I felt my sins literally "being washed away" in my soul. This only happened after I fully surrendered to him!

My whole life I thought I was a born-again Christian when I wasn't. But I needed to get born-again again by the Holy Spirit. After I received the Holy Spirit the difference in my life was night and day, but it's also a continual process. We need to come to daily repentance and washing everyday.

His blood covers our sin after we repent and we adopt the righteousness of Christ. That's why we don't need to feel shame, because when God looks at us, he doesn't see our past but his son Jesus who came to live in us after we love and obey him (John 14:26)! His grace is simply his presence abiding with us -- because God is holy, when he comes to live in you-- you automatically can't help but to become holier.

Let me talk about God's presence because I want to explain more how a loving God could send people who profess him as "Lord" in their lips but not in their hearts to hell. We'll show how God doesn't send people to hell, as much as they also send themselves there based on their heart.

Y'all remember the Ark of the Covenant in Samuel and David's time? The Philistines once captured the Ark from the Israelites and took it back with them. In 1 Samuel 5 are some pretty hilarious accounts of what the Ark, the container of God's presence (or Shekinah glory), did to the Philistines who by being enemies of Israel made themselves enemies of God.

After the Philistines took the ark back to their homeland, it became a curse wherever it was. Statues of their false gods were falling flat on their faces, tumors broke out [some other translations say hemorrhoids broke out -- if you don't think God has a playful sense of humor, you may need to read the bible more carefully. If you don't believe me, read the end of Jonah) it was causing so much havoc that the Philistines eventually wanted to have *NOTHING* to do with God's presence and glory and they sent it away.

God's presence and glory brings curses among his enemies, but among those who are his children, it brings blessing!

We all know what happened to the ark after it resided in Obed-Edom.

2 Samuel 6:12
"And it was told King David, “The LORD has blessed the household of Obed-edom and all that belongs to him, because of the ark of God.”

It was this very blessing that made David jealous, so he went to retrieve it because no one loved God's presence like David did!

So it seems like when we are in God's presence, how his presence affects us depends on whether we are his enemies or his children (we have his life and thereby the righteousness of Christ in us). Because God's presence is so overwhelming, that means being an enemy of God is really a bad thing!-- you also really don't want to be God's enemy when he comes back because in Revelation 19, Jesus' robes are dipped in the blood of his enemies! Is there anywhere in the bible where it says that self professed Christians could be God's enemies - or not have God living in them?

1 John 2:15
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

If God is living in you-- you have to have the love of the Father because God is love! So if you love the world, it's likely he aint' in ya! Where else is this hinted?

James 4:4
You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Is it becoming clear yet? God doesn't just want part of our hearts-- he wants all of it! Giving even part of our hearts away is like doing what the Israelites did by mixing Idol worship with worship of the one true God, Jehovah which is clearly not acceptable to him. Remember the first commandment that Jesus said we should follow above all else? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind!

Does the bible say God comes to live in us if we make a simple profession?

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Tying it all together we see that God comes to live in us only after we whole-heartedly love him and by doing so obey him by keeping his word. This means following what Jesus said! And he said some pretty hard things like love and forgive your enemies!

I've studied some interesting NDE accounts where people who have ended up in hell asked God to give them a chance and take him to heaven. In these cases, God actually complied with their request-- and when they got there-- the manifest glory and presence of God blasted them away! They couldn't handle it because they didn't have Christ's righteousness and holiness abiding in them! Their hearts which were defiled with bitterness, strife, envy and un-forgiveness couldn't handle God's manifest holiness and they shriveled and pleaded with God to cast them into hell instead. The presence of God in heaven is so heavy that they'd rather go to hell than enter into heaven, because by living worldly lives and thereby serving Satan even unknowingly, they are enemies of God and become incompatible with his holiness.

There's a verse in Psalms 37:4 that says God will give you the desires of your heart. I believe God does this even to the extent when people desire things other than him. If people give their lives to the world, God gives them up to what they want (sound familliar? In Romans 1 it says 'and God gave them up to their lusts') and gives them to share the same fate as the master that they chose to serve in their life-- false idols whose end is destruction. The world is passing away with is desires but he who does the will of God abides forever! 1 John 2:17.

God is merciful and loving but he can't help who he is - he is a holy God! Because he wants so much for us not to end up there-- he sent his Son to die for us and he sent his Holy Spirit to dwell in us. But we have to play according to the rules of who he is.

It would be unmerciful and unloving if he told us that getting to heaven only required a simply profession of faith with our lips but not our whole heart-- only to find out that all of us are incompatible with heaven once we get there. Instead he told us narrow is the way to life. This way is Jesus and the words that he spoke telling us how to walk the narrow way. This includes things contrary to our human wisdom like loving our enemies and forgiving our brothers and sisters who have dearly hurt us. It's hard to do but when you actually follow what Jesus says out of love you will experience his presence and grow in intimacy with him.

bearbear · 12-22-2013, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Oh YES indeed !!! I 'love' my angels !! ok...let me clarify that comment. I have a very deep appreciation for my angels because they have taken very good care of me. That I know of I have at least two of them. Hopefully more. But I know I have two guardian angels.

Awesome stories Carol, I don't have any personal encounters of angels yet but my family does.

My Grandma loves the Lord dearly and I am so thankful to her because I'm only where I am today in Christ because of her fervent prayers. She's a woman of prayer and one of the Christians in my life from whom I can sense a glowing light with my spiritual eyes in her day to day interactions.

That said, my grandma lived a really colorful life and she used to tell us some pretty crazy stories of how life in the early LCs was like in the 1950s back in Taiwan.

It was like the wild wild west. There weren't many mature Christians at the time who knew the bible well because everyone was a new believer. The Christians meeting in early LCs in Taiwan simply read the bible and followed it with little preconceptions. Demons were being cast out, people were being healed, lives were being transformed for Jesus! The supernatural power of God was breaking out everywhere just like in the early church of Acts and people were being wowed by the works of the Holy Spirit. People in the church actually didn't love the world back then and were very loose with their possessions-- they would give freely to other bros and sisters in need. Such is the only response that makes sense when you witness the power of God as it was with the churches in Acts.

My Grandma actually got things we know today as "word's of knowledge" when she went to heal the sick. She would just know in her mind a secret sin the person had and she would tell them to confess it and repent! After the person did, the sickness would go away. (In my worldview, my Grandma just saved that person's soul. Them being sick was the merciful thing otherwise they never would have repented regardless of whether or not they were "believers".)

And the hilarious thing was no one really *understood* the bible when they read it. My Grandma said a lot of things didn't make sense but she kept reading. Yet God in his grace and mercy honored her faith. When she'd go out to preach the gospel, a specific verse would pop into her mind when she needed it-- instructing her what to do! The word of God is living and active! It's meant to be applied and not just stored up in our heads. As James said be doers of the word and not just hearers deceiving yourselves!

So there were many such stories as this. One time they built a pagan temple next to my Grandma's house. The incense and smoke would rise so heavily next to the house and my Grandma was worried about the demonic presence that came with it. She sat down and prayed that God would protect her home and her children (she was raising 8 children by herself as a single mom by the way! God came through for her in so many ways even though they were dirt poor but they never lacked anything because my Grandma put both *God's kingdom* and *his righteousness* first before everything else).

My mom told me after my Grandma's prayer, one day my aunt who was maybe four or five at the time was lying in her bed when she looked out the window. She saw rows of angels above our house singing hymns in answer to my Grandma's prayer of protection! I was blown away and so touched by God's love for my Grandma and my family when I heard this. I realized that it's possible God does so many things in love for us and many times we don't even realize it because our spiritual eyes are closed! Who are we, that the Creator of heaven and earth should care for us so deeply?

bearbear · 12-22-2013, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james73

The parallel was this, and the point is open to debate, but this is what I believe: the divine is exactly the same. The "body" does its thing. The divine is in us no matter we understand it, know it, believe it, disbelieve it, whether we sin or repent or just go about a humdrum existence. The divine is in murderers, prostitutes and evil lying pastors, just as it is in bearbear, OBW and me.

I agree God loves sinners and he wants to save them at all costs. Jesus didn't avoid them but he ran to them. He ate and drank with the lowest dregs of society and you may even think of him as a party pooper but he even made alcohol for them. This puzzled the Pharisees but Jesus explained that he was a physician searching for patients to heal. However it's not healthy for sick people to stay sick after they visit the doctor.

No where in the bible does it say that it's acceptable for sinners to stay sinners, instead they are expected to be on a path which leads them to being saints. Paul never addressed his letters to sinners but to saints. When referring to those in churches, he reserved the use of the term 'sinner' for those living in sin and in danger of losing their salvation unless they repent (see 1 Cor 5:5).

“Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. (1 Corinthians 6:13)

Here Paul warns believers that as a stomach is destroyed along with the food, so will God destroy you (the temple of the Holy Spirit) if you let things like sexual immorality abide in you through unrepentant practice of sin. So if a prostitute invites the Holy Spirit into her life but continues in sexual immorality without repentance, she's still going to hell if she dies.

Quote:

Being human, having this fruit of knowledge, is a barrier to the divine. "Sin" and "guilt" are distractions - if I am lusting after a woman on the street, I am missing the eternal truth of the beauty and cosmic "whatever you call it" around me, because I am stuck in petty human knowledge and desire, most of it driven by ego. If I steal to get a better life, or am jealous, or envy, or any of those ten commandments, I am missing a point somewhere. If I do not love, I am missing the divine within me. It's not that these are sins to be judged, they are barriers to seeing what is already in us. A sin is a barrier.

This view of sin can only comfortably exist under free grace theology, a doctrine that is held by small minority of Christians. According to wikipedia here are the groups that do: "[Free grace theology's] prominent present-day expressions are the Grace Evangelical Society, the Free Grace Alliance, the Plymouth Brethren, and the local churches".The vast majority of Christians treat sin much more seriously, so we should do our homework to see if this is taught in the bible.

I contend that the concept of sinning only mattering in the OT but getting a free pass in the New Covenant is a doctrine that comes straight from the pit of hell and will result in the damnation of many well meaning Christians. I was once one of those who used to think I was so lucky to be born in the "age of grace". Why if I was living in OT times, I'd probably be screwed because so many of the Israelites probably ended up in the fiery side of Sheol due to rebellion and practicing of sin. But read Ezekiel 18 and you will realize that God is the same yesterday today and forever.

That said, I am still grateful for living in this time. The difference between the OT and the NT is that the Holy Spirit was sent down from heaven! This was made possible by the ascension of our wonderful Savior Jesus ("unless I go up, he cannot come down"). So make sure you take advantage of this unique opportunity by inviting the Holy Spirit to dwell in you after repenting. If you read the OT you'll realize God's spirit was not as easily made available to the Israelites. For example, God only sent his Spirit upon Moses initially, ignoring everyone else. (A good book on this part of the trinity that many ignore to their detriment is "The Forgotten God" by Francis Chan.)

So in Romans 6 and in numerous other places spread throughout his epistles, Paul warns that practicing sin leads to death. The way the word "death" is understood in the LCs is just something you wanna avoid-- which we all agree with. But back in the LCs we never pinpointed exactly what "death" means in the context of the new covenant.

So if you do your homework, it's not that hard to figure out. Jesus uses the words "death" many times in sayings like "let the dead bury the dead but as for you go proclaim the kingdom of God". So we know he was referring to people who were physically alive as "dead", because how else can you bury someone unless you are breathing? But then in other places, Jesus calls those who are physically dead as "sleeping"!

Remember when Lazarus died? Jesus told his disciples to chill out cause his friend was only sleeping. That tripped them up and Jesus eventually had to tell them plainly that he'd died, but they'd figure out later what he meant. We all know later that Lazarus resurrected from the dead-- so Jesus was really giving us an idea that he doesn't use the word "death" lightly, and he avoids that term for people who are dead but will resurrect again choosing to say "sleeping" instead.

So now you've probably realized what "death" really means. It's a euphemism for the only "death" that matters in the timeline of eternity. And that's spiritual death which is the absence of eternal life. It's the *THE REAL DEATH* you want to avoid at all costs: an unhappy ending consisting of spending eternity in either hell or outer darkness.

So try reading the New Testament again and substitute words like death and destruction in your mind with "hell" or "outer darkness for eternity" and your worldview will be rocked as mine was.

The reason those like Paul avoided using the word "hell" directly was because it would have been impolite. Back then "hell" was an uncomfortable word to use as it is today. Only Jesus had no qualms saying that taboo word when he warned believers against it.

So Paul and other writers thought up clever euphemisms to replace the usage of "hell". Here are the ones that come up the top of my head.

1. Death
2. Destruction
3. Believing in vain
4. Christ will profit you nothing
5. Burn up
6. Perishing
7. Destroy
8. "I've labored in vain"
9. Disqualified
10. Wrath of God
11. "Vengeance is mine!"

If you are scared for your salvation after reading this or think God is really cruel, please find my testimony somewhere in this thread. Or go to my blog here: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-out-free.html

james73 · 12-22-2013, 10:30 PM

Thank-you for your thoughtful response. I will ponder it all over the holidays. Have a happy Christmas!

bearbear · 12-23-2013, 07:59 PM

In my personal bible reading I came across Psalms 50. It wonderfully conveys how God's heart is not in sacrifice but obedience unto repentance.

“Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, I will testify against you. I am God, your God. Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you; your burnt offerings are continually before me. I will not accept a bull from your house or goats from your folds. For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the hills, and all that moves in the field is mine. “If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are mine. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the Most High, and call upon me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.”

But to the wicked God says: “What right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips? For you hate discipline, and you cast my words behind you. If you see a thief, you are pleased with him, and you keep company with adulterers. “You give your mouth free rein for evil, and your tongue frames deceit. You sit and speak against your brother; you slander your own mother’s son. These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you. “Mark this, then, you who forget God, lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver!

The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me; to one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God!” (Psalm 50:7-23 ESV)

bearbear · 12-26-2013, 01:48 PM

Just had this revelation today:

According to the Greek, we have to believe "into" (eis) Jesus. Many of the Israelites went only as far as intellectual acknowledgment that Jehovah was God, but they failed to "believe" their way into the good land which was their promise. Similarly many Christians "believe" Jesus exists as the son of God, but have they "believed" their way into Christ? Galatians 5:24 says those who belong to Christ has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. How many Christians are living in envy, strife, jealousy, selfish-ambition, bitterness and unforgiveness? If you take this verse in its literal meaning you can see why Jesus says few are saved, the road is narrow, and many try to get into the door to heaven but fail to.

We must have faith like Joshua did, by trusting in God to give us strength, enabling us to slay the giants of our flesh so we can obtain our promised inheritance in heaven. We also need to run away from anxiety and worry because that's the result of the same unbelief that led to the demise of the Israelites in the wilderness. We ultimately worship what we fear.

"Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience." - Hebrews 4:11

If we're struggling to make something happen in our Christian life we're doing it wrong. All the children of Israel had to do to make it into the good land and conquer it was to relax and know that Jehovah is God, then follow God who was pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, and believe that he would rescue them out of every horrible situation. They just had to live by faith based on God's perfect integrity since he had delivered them from every situation in the past. Instead they chose to live based on what their eyes saw, which included the 30 foot tall giants in Canaan.

"for we walk by faith, not by sight." - 2 Corinthians 5:7

This is a wonderful picture God gave us how to live by faith as Christians. First we enter into God's rest by being still and knowing that he is God. Then we follow God by living and walking accord to the Spirit. Then when we encounter horrible situations, we believe that God will deliver us every time. We continue to do this until we enter the door of eternal life either through death or rapture by which we obtain our promised inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.

"Be still and know that I am God! I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted among the earth" - Psalms 46:10

"Now then there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" - Romans 8:1 (KJV)

"and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:2

bearbear · 12-30-2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's nothing about LSM "umbrellas" or your twisting of the Greek word "pisteuo," which means "to believe, to be persuaded of, to place confidence in, to trust, to have reliance upon, and not mere credence." (Vine.) In this regard, to believe the good news is to obey the message from God to believe in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

credence means "acceptance as valid" so not mere credence means that pisteou goes beyond intellectual acknowledgment of something existing or being valid.

The key is the word "trust". My "Strong's Red Letter Edition" concordance gives a similar definition of "pisteuo" (4100):

Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence, hence it is translated "commit unto", "commit to one's trust", "be committed unto".

In English, when we say believe, it can be used in the sense of trust e.g. "I believe in you!", this is the closer meaning to pisteuo than "I believe in Santa" which is intellectual acknowledgment of existence. Actually, Pisteuo even goes farther than trust according to Strong's and can be meant as "commit oneself to"

So the bible never says that we are to pisteuo Jesus' sacrifice. Instead the wording is believe "into" (eis in Greek) Jesus, which many bible scholars and teachers including Witness Lee acknowledge!

In other words we're supposed to commit ourselves, or "trust" our way into Jesus. This startling sounds like how the Israelites were expected by God to "commit themselves unto" Him or "trust" their way into the promised land! Christians are promised salvation unto eternal life, but they have to receive this gift through faith by trusting their way into Jesus in the same way that the children of Israel where expected to trust their way into their promised inheritance.

Jesus say he was the "way" the truth and the life. He also said there was a narrow "way" that leads to life and few find it. Scripture also says we are to "walk by faith" and not by sight just as the Israelites were expected to when they saw the giants. The Christian life was alluded by Paul in many places as a "race" that had to be finished becoming consistent with Matthew 24:13 which says only those who "endure to the end will be saved", just as the Israelites were expected to endure their way into the good land.

Believing and receiving salvation isn't a one time event but it's a race we run and have to finish. Many of the seeds in the parable of the sower which did not land on the good earth grew and perished , meaning they died and did not reach "eternal life". The way to run the Christian race is by making sure our hearts become the good earth through repentance by which God creates in us a clean heart (Psa 51), so that we can bear the fruits of Spirit which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self control.

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. - Hebrews 4:11

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21

http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-save-you.html

Lisbon · 12-30-2013, 04:43 PM

For a number of years I have really been bothered that my LC never speaks of sin or repentance. Some are quite happy that we don't talk about sin or going to hell. That's far too dark. In the last few years the BB's have covered the prophets in the OT and it seems incredible that nothing is ever mentioned about sin or repentance. That is far too low. They just look for Christ.

As an old man I have heard solid ministers of the word speak of the prophets and even heard WL agree the prophets were always called in due to the backsliding of possibly both the kings and the priests. Such a wonderful quote-seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his ways and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return to Me. Not exact but close. Of course most of the OT is to God's people. All we like sheep have gone astray and turned to his own way. That's us, the church. We always go astray and the leaders that try to gloss everything over are just workers of iniquity. The early church which we so often hear spoken of with such high regard were quite gone to hell in about 20 years. And of course I don't mean that. But both Paul and John very separately agree the early churches so quickly needed to repent.

In the LC there has not been any repentance for well over 50 years and I'm one who says we are far past due. I don't think they can or will ever repent. They are just right and very bull headed. Only the Lord can save us.

Lisbon

countmeworthy · 12-30-2013, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisbon

For a number of years I have really been bothered that my LC never speaks of sin or repentance. ....In the LC there has not been any repentance for well over 50 years and I'm one who says we are far past due. I don't think they can or will ever repent. They are just right and very bull headed.

Hi Lisbon,
If that's the case over all, I will be forever grateful for the wonderful elders in San Diego I was under in 1975. We had many a message on repentance (almost to a fault). And several conferences on the Power of the Blood of Jesus as well as very good messages on the Triune God. I am sure since leaving around 1978ish, it too has fallen under the LSM spell of not repenting. 3 of the elders are no longer in the LC btw.

Quote:

Some are quite happy that we don't talk about sin or going to hell. That's far too dark.

That is why there is no Presence, no Power, No Anointing of God anymore.

Quote:

In the last few years the BB's have covered the prophets in the OT and it seems incredible that nothing is ever mentioned about sin or repentance. That is far too low. They just look for Christ. They need to revisit the 7 churches in Rev 2 & 3. There is a lot of admonishing to REPENT!!! The LC I was in surely is not the LC of today. It had problems then too but nothing like it has today. God have Mercy.

Well I don't know what Messiah (Christ) they are looking to because the Christ I/we know will convict me/us of sin (NOT condemn, but Convict ...and that goes for any true believer & follower of the One True God.

I pray they repent.

bearbear · 01-01-2014, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Well I don't know what Messiah (Christ) they are looking to because the Christ I/we know will convict me/us of sin (NOT condemn, but Convict ...and that goes for any true believer & follower of the One True God.

I pray they repent.

I agree lack of repentance is a sign we are not Jesus' sheep

Back during Jesus' days in the middle east the sheep were intimately familiar with their shepherds because of how much time they spent with each other. For example, the shepherd often slept with his own sheep. Because of their close bond, the sheep would instantly recognize and respond to the shepherd's voice and not the voice of any stranger.

John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

The unfortunate pitfall that not just those in the LCs but many other Christians face is making their ministry work an idol. Many fall into the trap of no longer living to please God but they strive to advance the agenda of their own ministry even if it leaves other brothers and sisters in the wayside. No longer do they serve God, but a false idol even if it's related to God. That's why Jesus tells us to seek God's kingdom AND *his righteousness* (Matt 6:33) and Paul tells us any athlete participating in a contest has to play by the rules to receive his crown (2 Tim 2:5)

God's word is clear that those who belong to him must depart from wickedness (which they do when they repent):

2 Timothy 2:19
But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

That said, only God knows who are his as the verse states. Just as the Father was always available to receive the prodigal son back into his house, so is God's offer of repentance always available to those who belong to him:

2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

If the LCs were ever able to repent and remove the leaven from their ministry, God would "heal their land" and they could become an unstoppable force like the early church was in Acts. Unfortunately, the years of tradition that have entrenched LSM makes this seemingly unlikely. Yet what's impossible with man is possible with God.

awareness · 01-01-2014, 09:40 AM

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Joh 10:10b I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Lisbon · 01-08-2014, 01:28 PM

Concerning repentance, it seems to me that the Word, new and old testaments have so much to say about repentance. As an old man surely I shouod be all smiles with victory after victory in my every day life. But it is not that way. Our lives are full of warfare and you know it. I get sick sometimes going to meetings where the final exhortation is just to love the Lord. Pardon me Ed but sometimes I wish he wouldn't be so loving. EM has had plenty of trouble in the past 25 or 30 years and yet he appears on stage to be all smiles. I don't believe it. WL spoke of Moses and Paul as being near perfect but sorry, I don't believe it. If Paul got perfected on the way to Damascus he and we are not in the same race. John the baptist didn't get perfected, niether did Peter, Barnabas, and a few others. Only WL was perfect and that took looking over sexual immorality and bullying.

Without some real repentance I think most of us are very short. We so need to pray to the Lord for mercy. A lot of us came into the LC because there was a real shortage elsewhere and then for me it took a long time to find there was a worse shortage in the LC. Oh Lord help us!

Lisbon

countmeworthy · 01-08-2014, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Joh 10:10b I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Yup... He led us in the LC (at least me anyway) and He led us out.

Paul Vusik · 04-29-2022, 10:46 AM

Here is LCs definition of “taking a cross”, so for those of you who have issues with the people in LC as cold, uncaring, cannot develop any significant relationships, and other things that have been expressed by a lot of people in multiple threads here, it’s is the result of this awful interpretations that causes people to be that way. There is absolutely nothing else to blame it on, when you read this kind of junk!

“What does it mean to bear the cross? To bear the cross means to see that we are finished and ended. As soon as we begin to love someone, the cross will operate in us to kill our love. Can a crucified person still love others by himself? Can someone who is on the cross still be active? Can someone who is on the cross still do something? It is impossible. If we know the cross and bear the cross, we will immediately see that the cross has already terminated us.”

https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=0B00CFC1CD

So they consider themselves “non existent”, so asking or expecting anything from a non existent being is just impossible. I guess all I saw at the meetings was just ghosts of people.

Paul Vusik · 04-30-2022, 02:06 PM

As a rebuttal to this nonsense spewed by the LC, as in the quote I posted here yesterday, I wanted to provide couple of verses to show why this concept is not so. It is presented in the LC this way, with a single purpose, that is to hold people hostage, sometimes for their whole life. They think that they can, or do have some kind of means, ways, or even authority to determine each believers personal relationship with God. They can measure, identify, and tell you whether the simplest of things as loving someone, is of your “self”, or of what God through your process of new birth and regeneration has put into your heart.
It is absolute spiritual atrocity that any man in this world can commit, by inserting himself or themselves into that position. They judge a persons spiritual life, and their growth in life, based on their own live, own experiences, or lack there of. For the most part, people who do this, have nothing to offer, nothing to build people up with, nothing to give to people in terms of spiritual food for their growth. But it’s just to knock them down, tell them they are “fleshly and soulish”, and have a long way to go to catch up to them. They have the template that everyone is inserted and measured with, no questions asked or objections to be made.
On the other hand, there is real, beautiful, and truly living life, that has been given to each and every born again believer! This life, cannot be faked, cannot be destroyed, questioned, knock down or subjected to men’s templates. That life, is there by the grace and mercy of God. It teaches you, it instills Godly ways and principles through the work of the Holy Spirit. No man can know this life in you, besides you. The only thing that they will be able to say, that there is something different about this person. They will see the fruits of the work of God in you!
What’s really unfortunate today, is that people that have none of those things happening in their life’s, are the ones that determining your growth. They installed themselves as the “caretakers” by every possible way that they could. They sure are the most humble of people, polite, and present themselves as the most genuine. But what gives them away, is that the things that they ask of others, they can’t exhibit themselves, so they always have to knock everyone down so they don’t get ahead of where they are at. God forbid you actually love your neighbor, or you care for someone when they don’t. How would that make them look?
Well, I will just say that next time one of those man, tells you that you are in your soul, you need to give up, you need to die, even though God has done otherwise in your life and you know it better that them, there is an unction in you that testifying otherwise: tell that person just like Jesus did to Peter, “get thee behind me satan”! Don’t let them trample what God has done for you! Don’t let them steal those precious things that God has put in you! Don’t let them question your heart and then question God! Be bold and courageous like that blind man in John 9, who didn’t let these filthy leaders destroy that what Jesus has done for Him, but stood tall, even at the cost of being cast out of the synagogue. Because even if they do, Jesus will be there for you more that before. He will take care of you, way more that any of those man ever wished or are capable of. Trust in Jesus, and not in any man!

2 Tim 2:11
11*It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Romans 8:11
11*But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Colossians 2:18-23
18*Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19*And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20*Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21*(Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22*Which all are to perish with the using

after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23*Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

God bless!

12-17-2013, 03:53 PM	#1
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Hi All, I'm an ex-LRC member who was in the LCs for over 20 years and did an extensive re-study of what the bible teaches concerning grace and salvation after I left. Frankly, I'm scared for the salvation of many in the LRC as well as for ex-members. Witness Lee taught that after a simple confession of belief in the Lord, you are saved forever via judicial redemption. I contend that the bible teaches that mere belief without repentance will likely land you in either hell or outer darkness for eternity after you die and not just for a thousand years during the millennial reign. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear we only have once chance to repent and it's only in this life, not in outer darkness! I've written a lot along this regard and I wanted to share my articles with you for those of you who are wondering if the bible really teaches eternal security: http://eternityinourheart.com/osas/ http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...epentance.html http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-believer.html http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-if-jesus.html Here's a near death experience of a christian who nearly died while gambling in a casino. He ended up in outer darkness and the only thing he could do was gnash his teeth. God told him it was his eternity and not a thousand years! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6va_...iVyV7g&index=4 Here's an NDE of a pastor who died but didn't forgive his wife. He nearly ended up in hell because God told him he couldn't expect to sow unforgiveness and reap forgiveness from God!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA7mt...iVyV7g&index=5 there's many more that I've posted on my website: http://eternityinourheart.com Also here are some verses I'd like to share right now. Read them and ask God if the bible really teaches soul versus spirit salvation or if outer darkness is only for a thousand years. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Does the bible teach once saved always saved? You be the judge. Jesus taught that man should not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4). The apostle Paul says in Acts 20:27 that he did not shrink back from preaching the whole counsel of God. It's important to hear God's word in its entirety. Many of the promises in the bible that once saved always saved (OSAS) teachers rely on are interpreted out of context and have not been balanced with verses that clearly show how our own free will can prevent God's work of salvation in us. Below are verses proponents of OSAS either ignore or explain away with elaborate theology and eisigesis. Jesus teaches us to be as wise as serpents but innocent as doves for good reason (Matthew 10:16). Paul warned Timothy that in the last days many would not endure sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3). Jesus also warned many false teachers would come in his name and decieve many (Matthew 24:11). Ask Father God, who Jesus says is our one and only Teacher (Matthew 23:8) and the Holy Spirit whom he sent, to reveal the truth to you (John 16:12). Jesus promises eternal life to the sheep who hear his voice and follow him in John 10. This promise only applies to those who can hear his voice above all the other 'christian' voices, teachers, books and commentaries in the world. If you were taught free grace theology in church, remember that the bible likens the word of God to a two-edged sword that is able to cut through the heart (Hebrews 4:12). This cutting can be painful because the word of God is powerful in its own right even without interpretation but it's what we need to stay on the narrow path which leads to life when we go astray (Matthew 7, John 15). In Hosea 4:6 God tells Israel "My people are destroyed because they do not know me" because the Israelites thought they could worship foreign gods and still be okay with Jehovah. Perhaps this applies well to many Christians today who believe they can give their hearts to the world and still stand right before God. Verses below are taken from the English Standard Version unless otherwise specified. Holiness is required Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Ephesians 5:3-5 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Obedience is required John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Romans 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Perseverance is required 2 Peter 2:20-22 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” If it would have better for them not to have received the gospel, they are probably not ending up in heaven! Hebrews 6:4-8 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. Ezekiel 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. Living by the Holy Spirit is required John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. Romans 8:1 (KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Galatians 6:8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Forgiving everyone is required Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Mark 11:25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. Colossians 3:13 Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. Not loving the world is required James 4:4 You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Luke 14:34-35 Salt is good, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is of no use either for the soil or for the manure pile. It is thrown away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. Taking the cross is required Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Deducing by the logic of if A => B, then not B => not A, we can infer that those who have not "crucified the flesh" do not belong to Christ Jesus. Luke 17:33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. Matthew 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Believing in vain is possible 1 Corinthians 15:2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. Luke 12:46 (NIV) The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. The Greek word rendered 'unbelievers' is apistoj. Some translations say unfaithful however apistoj unequivocally means heathen or unbeliever (see here). He was once a servant of the Lord but he meets the same fate as those who never even acknowledged the Lord. Matthew 13:20-21 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. Galatians 5:1-2 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. Philippians 2:16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. What does Paul mean by "I did not run in vain or labor in vain"? Perhaps it was because he was worried many in the churches would forfeit their salvation! Genuine repentance is required Matthew 3:7-9 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 26:19-21 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Ezekiel 18:21-23 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? Few are saved Luke 13:24 Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. 1 Peter 4:18 And “If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” Your name can be removed from the book of life Psalms 69:27-28 Add iniquity unto their iniquity; And let them not come into thy righteousness, Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous. Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book." If one dies without forgiveness of their sins their name vanishes out of the record book of life. Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We overcome by our faith which is exhibited by faithfulness. Deducing the opposite: If you believe but don't overcome, the implication is your name can be blotted out of the book of life. Avoid these at all costs Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Mark 3:29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin. Revelation 14:9-11 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Sound impossible? We can't do it alone! The disciples once asked Jesus "Who then can be saved?" (Luke 18:26) because the standard that Jesus set in his preaching made salvation seem impossible. Coming to know that we can't save ourselves is a good thing. We are utterly dependent on God for our salvation. In fact the Hebrew name for Jesus, Yeshua means God is our salvation! The only thing God requires is that we make the choice from our heart to turn away from all the idols of the world and the desires of our flesh unto Him. Psalms 37:4 says that God will give us the desires of our heart, so if we desire God, we will obtain him. He is a God that respects our free will and is faithful to work out our salvation for us and through us after we choose Him over everything else. He does this by making his home in our heart through the Holy Spirit when we obey God and love him with all of our heart (John 14:23) Mark 9:24-25 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”. And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “You mute and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.” The father makes the choice from his heart to believe. But he realizes as hard as he wants to believe, his faith is still lacking and he is utterly dependent on God's grace to help him. Jesus faithfully responds to the desire from his heart by casting out the unclean spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” John 14:23 Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. We are saved by God living through us which happens when we love God and obey His word (John 14:23). If you follow the first commandment by loving the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind (Luke 10:27), you will be able to overcome because everything else will follow through Christ living in you (Colossians 1:27). What about the verses that guarantee salvation? 1 Corinthians 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. Many point to this verse as a guarantee of salvation even for those who are living in sin such as this Corinthian believer who had relations with his step-mother. However, when this verse is read carefully we realize that it's not a guarantee but a warning! Using straightforward deduction, if the Corinthians do not abide by Paul's instruction here, this believer's spirit may not be saved. Paul is telling the Corinthians to excommunicate this sinner and let the world have it's way with him so he will be brought to repentance, in the same way that the prodigal son came to repent in Luke 15. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. This verse isn't a promise of salvation as much as it is an expression of God's love. The Greek grammar the apostle John used for the verb believe is in the present continuous tense. Read in English, it deceptively appears as if christians need only believe once when it should be read "continually believe". The Greek verb translated to "should" for the phrase "should not perish" in the ESV and KJV is often rendered as "would" or "shall" in other translations such as NIV. "should" implies probability and necessity whereas "would" and "shall" are guarantees. Which one is the correct translation? Dr. Marion, a scholar in Greek languages gives a thorough argument why the correct translation is "should" here: "Should" is frequently a part of the translation of the tense of the verb mello which means to be about to do something. The uses of should and would correspond to those of shall and will. In our text the word "should" is in the subjunctive mood which expresses doubt or a wish or condition contrary to fact. Examples: "I wish I were a lawyer," or, "If I were you, I should go." Moreover, in John 3:16 Jesus used the word "not" which negates the force of "should." The original reads: me apoletai alla - me apoletai alla, (rendered "should not perish," KJV). In the Greek this phrase is second aorist, middle subjective, intransitive, of apollumi, meaning to destroy. Hence the believer should not be destroyed, but have life eternal, the exact opposite of what will happen to the unbeliever. Earlier we saw that the verb "should" conveys a doubt, a wish or condition contrary to fact, Thus in John 3:16, the believer may or may not exercise his right as a believer. He has a choice to believe and obey the gospel or else to simply acknowledge the Lord (believe in Him as a person) and die lost. (Acts 26:27; James 2:19; John 12:42; cf. John 1:11-12; 20:31). 1 Corinthians 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. Many also point to this verse as a guarantee of salvation. Catholics and kingdom exclusion teachers such as Watchman Nee and southern Baptists use this verse to support their doctrine of purgatory or a temporary period of discipline in outer darkness for unfaithful believers. We agree this verse confirms that we are saved by grace and not works. Paul is trying to convey that if someone has truly repented but has no good works he will still be saved. One example is the thief on the cross next to Jesus in Luke 23:43. Because of this believer's sinful past, God must burn up his works so that he can forget them. This verse isn't saying the believer will be burned, but that the works are so that he may be saved. Perhaps knowing that many would twist this concession to mean more than it should, Paul proceeds to warn in the next verses "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (KJV)" so that believers would understand that salvation still requires holiness. If we say we believe but don't repent and instead defile our hearts through practicing sin, God will still cast us into hell. The concept of purgatorial suffering in outer darkness preceding entrance into the kingdom of heaven simply isn't found in the bible. Hebrews 9:27 makes it clear that our only chance to repent is in this life and not after we die. Outer darkness rather than being temporary is for eternity given the finality of the Lord's words in Matthew 7 and echoed again in Luke 13 "Depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you!". We only have one shot and it's in this life! Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is a wonderful promise God gives us that we should all hold on to. However this verse poignantly leaves out 'us' or own free will. Nothing can separate us from the love of God except ourselves! Read in context of the passage, Paul is saying don't relate the circumstances around you to God's love. We may be in the worst tribulation or calamity, but God is always there with us as he was with Job, even when we don't see him or sense him. John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. Again, a wonderful promise. No one will snatch us away. However nothing in this verse indicates that God will stop us from jumping out of His hand. But even if we do jump out of the Father's hand, God as our good Shepherd is faithful to search us out and return us to the fold (Matthew 18). But it's up to us to hear his voice and follow him back. Unlike demons who inhabit people against their will, God will never violate our free will by forcing himself on us, yet He is faithful even when we are unfaithful (2 Timothy 2:13). OSAS may not be biblical, but God is still abounding in grace and mercy giving us far more than we deserve.

12-17-2013, 04:10 PM	#2
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? I believe that "once saved always saved" is an overly simplistic slogan that does not properly reflect some portions of the scripture that we read. It has even been said that Calvin (the alleged source of Calvinism, the original OSAS doctrine) did not believe what is taught officially as Calvinism. When I look at the official doctrine of Calvinism, then at the official doctrine of Arminianism, I see issues with both. Yet I find truth in both. Neither is total right or totally wrong. I think that, to some degree, the problem lies in the use of the word "saved." In scripture, it refers to something that happens when you "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," and it also refers to something that you must spend your entire life endeavoring to work out with fear and trembling. And that latter version is not just "by grace alone." It requires work over the remainder of our lives. It requires a sober mind that is diligent and a will to go with it. Sometimes I wish I had at least one of those. So there may be some real serious theology buffs that may want to take this on. But suffice it to say that I find little cause to completely buy the teaching, but also no reason to simply reject it. The fortune-cookie approach to Bible exposition is what got us the competing doctrines in the first place, along with others like "trinity." I like that one, but I doubt that it is really that important to put so much thought into it or fight about nuanced versions of it. (Not even sure that Modalists are truly heretics that believe in a different Jesus.) __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

12-18-2013, 11:40 AM	#4
countmeworthy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: in Spirit & in Truth Posts: 1,363	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? I have always had difficulty understanding 'taking up the cross'. Funny, I was just talking to a brother yesterday about that very thing ! LOL. So yes. Repentence & the cross (The Blood of Jesus) is necessary for Salvation. To be sure, I totally understand Galations 2:20...and there it mentions being crucified with Christ. Salvation I have discovered is a process. There is eternal salvation & then our daily salvation. A broken & a contrite heart God will not despise. With certainty, every person who is born again has repented. If he has not how can he/she see desire Christ? Darkness does not want to be in the Light. But we must repent daily because our minds & hearts are still polluted. As an example. It is easy for people to pray for their loved ones, our country, Israel etc... but try praying for someone who broke your heart or betrayed you when you thought you could trust them. Try praying for an ex spouse who cheated on you, divorced you & left you high & dry...AND they were a 'Christian'. Yeah... not so easy is it? Though I have not been married... I am speaking from my experience of being betrayed, hurt, abandoned etc... I did not pray for them right away of course but in due time as I grew closer to the Lord, His Spirit told me to pray for them. WHAT ??? *NOOOO LORD!!! WHY me* ???? But when I obeyed and prayed for them to draw nearer to HIM, to have Mercy on them as He had mercy on me, to forgive them as He forgave me, the hurt, the yoke, the heavy burdened lifted. Glory to God in the Highest! __________________ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be *accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,* and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

12-18-2013, 12:33 PM	#5
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? It does seem interesting that the thread is titled concerning "taking the cross" and "repenting" yet seems to spend the lion's share of the opening dialog talking about Calvinism. I’m sure that it somewhat changed sooner than I give credit. But when posts are multiple times longer than mine (which are often too long), even I give out. Especially when the topic has the appeal of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I’m not saying that the topic is as frivolous. But for the reasons I included in my first post to this thread, I believe that most of the controversy surrounding the Calvinism/Arminian debate, like many others, is straining gnats. Whatever is true or false in those teachings is what it is. Whether I believe it one way or the other will not change my destiny. If I truly believe in Christ, and follow, it will not matter which I think is correct. I don't think that a proper Calvinist teaching is sending anyone to hell. I do note that most true Calvinists still join in worship of God on a regular basis. They do not have some kind of "I'm in or out, so who cares what I do" kind of mentality. If that were actually true, then I would have more concern for those who follow such teaching. On "taking the cross," I'm with CMW. I'm not sure what that means. I realize that there was the imagery of the accused being required to carry their own means of execution. But while I'm sure that the intent was to suggest a significant burden, were the references by Jesus really about heading toward death in that sense (or any sense)? Is it about the "crossing out" of one's self? I believe that there is some truth in that kind of thinking. But I'm not sure that it is at the level that most who talk about it take it. It is not some kind of annihilation of the self. Maybe more like the extremes used when saying you either love God and hate money, or it is the other way around. The point was not hate, it was wrong priorities. But "hate" was the term used for "2nd place." A little like saying that there is the winner and everyone else is a "looooooseeeeeer." Even the one that gets the silver medal is just a loser. Now when I read Galatians 2:20, I don't see the same kind of ongoing "cross" that others often speak of. It seems that in this passage Paul is providing facts, or reasons, that they don't need to be turning to the OT ritualistic law (especially of circumcision). They don't need to be circumcised. They have already been crucified. "I have been." Not "I am being" or "I am continually being" crucified. No need to cross out a piece of flesh when your whole being is crucified. Obviously, this is also not literal, but metaphorical. The crucifixion of Christ did all that was necessary for right standing before God. No more need to mutilate the flesh (with a scalpel, whip, or austere living). __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

12-18-2013, 01:37 PM	#6
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? I'm with you OBW, I don't want to get into a discussion of Calvinism either because I don't think it's relevant and didn't mean to bring it up. The reason being again that Witness Lee wasn't a five point Calvinist but a free grace teacher. Calvinism teaches sovereign grace and perseverance of the saints, free grace teaches that our sins are forgiven past present and future and the moral law of the OT has been abolished, sin doesn't matter and we only need to confess it to clear our relationship with God for fellowship. Okay now that's established let's move things back to repentance and taking the cross. I believe the New Testament clearly teaches in many places that you don't belong to Jesus unless you take the cross, meaning you crucify the desires and passions of your flesh. This is spelled out clearly in Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. And again in Matthew 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. The Hebrew name for Jesus is Yeshua which means the Lord is our salvation. If you don't have Jesus, I'm sorry but you don't have salvation! When the Jews asked Peter how they could be saved after the demonstration of tongues at Pentecost, Peter replied in Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Greek word for repent is metanoia. It means more than just confessing sins, it means having a change of mind-- in other words having your worldview rocked by adopting the mind of Christ. And Carol was right about daily salvation. The same Apostle Paul who preached that we're saved by grace through faith alone also preached that after we repent, we have to keep our repentance ongoing through works: Acts 26:19-21 “Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. How could this be? It's because we're saved by a faith that works. True faith causes us to live in good works. Hebrews 10:38 says the righteous shall live by faith- faith is something we live out and not just hold in our belly. And not just any faith counts, but faith working through love! Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. Now we got that settled, it's clear why all these ugly things happened in the LCs. I believe it's because Witness Lee never crucified the desires of his flesh-- namely the desire to see his sons inherit his kingdom, and the desire to build a worldly corporate enterprise to make money. He was a victim of his own teachings concerning salvation. And we see the fruit of that today looking back at LC history. But just because Witness Lee stumbled doesn't mean we have to. Mr. Lee is dead, but we're still alive. Life is a gift from God, and we still have the opportunity to repent while we're alive. This includes loving and forgiving those who have hurt us the most, including everyone in the LC system! You may ask why I'm making such a big issue on grace and salvation. I'll contend that if there's any doctrine you want to get right, this is it! What could be more important than your eternity really?

12-19-2013, 05:53 AM	#8
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? As for Witness Lee, I am more than willing to accept that he was actually a believer who was caught up in various sins, including pride and arrogance. But while I will do whatever I can to steer people away from his seriously flawed teachings, I expect to see him with all believers after death. Whether he gets to experience the little dark closet that he talked about I cannot say with certainty. But what I read in scripture indicates that there is a reward for the diligent, but eternal life for all who believe. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

12-19-2013, 06:39 AM	#9
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? In English, when we say we believe something, it usually means that we acknowledge the existence of something we can't see. When the NT uses the word "belief" it means more than that. The word rendered believe in the New Testament is pisteuo in the Greek, it's actually closer to a conviction or trusting in something that can be so intense that you actually live your life to conform to that belief-- or in other words obedience! I contend that both Jesus and the Apostle John used pisteuo in the NT synonymously with obedience. For example: John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Jesus did say whoever believes in me will never die in John 11:26, but what did Jesus mean when he said pisteou? Throughout the gospels Jesus stresses not just hearing the word but doing it in obedience. Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. So we see here that merely acknowledging the Lord is not enough, but we also have to do the will of God in obedience. Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no be no, so if you believe in Jesus make sure you really do! Also if anyone calls Jesus Lord but doesn't actually make him Lord, then they're lying to themselves. Jesus expressed frustration at this many times in the gospels: Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?" The Apostle James also warns against hearing God's word but not doing it. He says people who do so deceive themselves! The whole book of James is a huge warning to those who lie to themselves about believing in God when they show that they don't by the fruit they bear. James 1:22 "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." Now only God knows someones heart and only he knows where Witness Lee is right now. If we see Witness Lee in heaven then praise God because that means he truly repented before he passed. I'm personally not so sure about this judging by the fruit he bore towards the end of his ministry, but it's possible his repentance at the end was real- what gives me hesitation is in his letter of repentance, he didn't take full responsibility for the mistakes but always used the word "we" instead of "I". Also in the book of James it says that not many should teach because they'll receive a greater judgment-- think of the people who spiraled into depression, abandoned the faith or committed suicide ending up in hell/outer darkness because of the errors and unscriptural practices in Witness Lee's ministry-- will God really let this go unpunished without repentance? The degree of repentance always has to match the degree of sin (think David and Bathsheba and all that David had to go through). Still who am I to judge someone who already passed, each of us will have to face God in judgment. My aim is to convey the need for repentance. There's a good reason why Jesus said the road to life is narrow and few find it-- it's not easy to take the cross, it's not easy to repent because it takes humility and letting go of everything you once loved. But it's all within our control because we all have full control of our hearts. I go over this in some detail here: Http://eternityinourheart.com/heart Regarding our sin-stained flesh, I agree that the bible doesn't say that we should be without sin. Sinless perfection is a heresy per 1 John 1:8. Every time we stumble in sin, God will still forgive us when we confess it (1 John 1:9) given that we repent. However we should never let sin control the way we live-- and any Christian who falls into this trap without repentance is in trouble. Paul said in Romans 6:12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions." If anyone believes God's grace is enough to forgive an unrepentant "Christian" who still lives a life controlled by sin, then you may need to meditate on these verses again and ask God for deliverance. Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Ephesians 5:3-5 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. My whole life I lived in addiction and enslavement to sin (pornography and video game addiction). I thought every male looked at porn and could never help it. I thought that I could practice sin and God would forgive me every time I confessed. It was only when God showed me his true grace that I fully repented and asked for the Holy Spirit to come into my life and then I was free. I was deceiving myself the whole time thinking I believed and was saved even though I read the bible, prayed and even served when I was in LRC. My fear is that many in the LRC and ex-members may be in the same situation, believing that they are saved when they're not. There's just too many temptations in this world such that if a church doesn't stress repentance, its members are in big trouble! I think this verse sums it up well: Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. This way is the broad way that leads to destruction Jesus describes in Matthew 7. But now I really do feel like a Christian! When I look at my former self, I understand what "old man" means not just doctrinally but in reality because I can barely recognize who I once was. Jesus didn't just die to forgive our sins but to free us from being enslaved to it by the power of his blood. What frightens me the most is that one day many could be facing the door to eternity in heaven thinking they can enter because they believed but never took care of their addictions and Jesus will have to give them the bad news. Matthes 7:22-23 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

12-19-2013, 07:13 AM	#11
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? bearbear, The whole problem with your thesis is that it implies that ultimately salvation is by works, that it is performance that matters. Theologians have been around and around about this for centuries. Although we should do our own homework, most likely you are not going to improve on the overall consensus, which is this: Salvation is by faith, not by works. You cannot perform your way into eternal life. Period. However, true faith is accompanied by works. Just how much is not clear. But just trying to define it implies that you believe works are needed for salvation, which the Bible flatly denies. But what about James 2:20, you ask. Again theologians have addressed that. The conclusion is James is saying that without works, faith may not be present. He is not saying, without works salvation is not present. Simply put, works do not achieve salvation, they indicate it. Your formula is: Faith + Works = Salvation. The actual formula is: Faith = Salvation + Works It is not that without works you cannot be saved. It is that without works you may not be saved. Note the difference. Again, then the question becomes how much or what quality of works. If you say to the level of obedience then no one is or has ever been saved because we are all disobedient. In the end, we all rely on grace and forgiveness. Our works just cannot be good enough. The bottom line is if you are saved you will have a heart to please God, and will attempt to. There will be some evidence in your life that you have faith. In other words, you will have "works." Even the backslidden seek to serve God in some manner, even if it's just in trying to be on balance nicer than they might. Are those works "enough?" Enough for what? In any case, it's not for me to say. Again, no need to reinvent the wheel.

12-19-2013, 07:29 AM	#12
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? To clarify I don't mean works out of self effort which result in self righteousness (think of the Pharisees who sounded a horn when they donated to the temple) but when I say works I mean works done out of faith. And faith only works through God living in us. Let's revisit Galatians 2:20 because it's such a great verse that I believe sums up the Christian faith in many ways: I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Paul says in Romans 6 to consider ourselves dead to sin but alive in Christ. First we must die to sin as Christ died on the cross, which we do when we repent. Afterwards God comes to live in us through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul says in Phil 1:21 that for me to live is Christ but to die is gain. So when we live by faith we're not doing it by ourselves! We're doing it through Christ living in us! It's not us who is working but Christ who is working through us so we have nothing to boast about. This is why only faith working through love counts. Because Christ can only operate through us through love: Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. When we love and obey God (by taking the cross/repenting), God comes to live in us: John 14:26 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. This is why Galatians 5:14 says love fulfills the law! And why Jesus says he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Unlike what free grace teachers insist on, the moral law of the OT still applies- it hasn't been abolished! It's fulfilled by God living in us and by us living according to the Spirit. This was made possible by Christ's death on the cross and ascension which allowed the Holy Spirit to come down (John 16:7). We are no longer under the law but we live it! by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us (1 Cor 6:19). Jeremiah 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. In the OT, the animals that were sacrificed had to die first before the fire of God could come down to consume it. The Israelites provided the sacrifice but God provided the fire. Where is this fulfilled in the New Testament? Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." In the NT there are two baptisms, one by water unto repentance and another by the Holy Spirit. Before God can come live and operate in us first we must die through repentance (present our bodies as a living sacrifice Rom 12:1), and then be baptized by the Holy Spirit who is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). The NT teaches that the Holy Spirit is given to us as a deposit to guarantee our inheritance, in the same way that a engagement ring seals a bride until her wedding day (2 Tim 2:14). I believe after you truly belong to Jesus, he won't lose you! John 6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." But we have to go through the right steps in obedience-- first die to our old man by crucifying the desires of our flesh on the cross, and be made alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

12-19-2013, 09:01 AM	#16
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Luke 13:23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" And Jesus said to them: "Relax bro. I'm gonna die for you and all you have do is pray the sinner's prayer and acknowledge me as Lord. How you want to live your life after that is optional." Oh wait, that's not what he said. Instead he said this: "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to." What does Jesus say earlier in Luke 13:3? Did he say: No, I tell you; but unless you simply pray the sinner's prayer and acknowledge me with word and not deed, you will all likewise perish. Nope, the real verse says: No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

12-19-2013, 11:26 AM	#32
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? BB, One last thought. Stop looking so closely at a few words within one verse that is only part of a sentence that is part of a paragraph that is part of an entire discourse on a particular subject. Consider the whole thing. Don't just jump to the local equivalents of "though shalt" or "though shalt not." Too often there really aren't such things even written there. They only appear that way when you rip them from context and demand that they provide a directive. I'm not saying that there are no commands. But be sure that you are reading them correctly. Finding a few words that could be construed to mean whatever you are thinking about is not the same as a few words that when placed back in context really are saying something different. Not necessarily opposite, but nonetheless different. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

12-19-2013, 01:23 PM	#43
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Fear will drive us to God for mercy to gain salvation initially. But fear can't do the day-to-day heavy lifting needed to make sacrifices and care for others. Only love can do that. Preaching elevator salvation to scare people into behaving sounds good, but it doesn't work. It's never worked. What works is love. And frankly, bearbear, you don't sound too loving, or joyful or peaceful for that matter. You sound like someone driven by fear to push a pet doctrine. In short, you sound religious.

12-19-2013, 01:35 PM	#46
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Fear of God and fear of losing salvation aren't the same thing. Fear of God is biblical. Fear of losing eternal salvation that you've already gained is not.

12-19-2013, 01:56 PM	#53
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? This is why belief in elevator salvation always lead into some kind of belief in sinless perfection. Because the mind can't tolerate questions like the ones I just asked. So it starts kidding itself that it is not actually sinning. You talk about motivations. You have to consider that one as well.

12-19-2013, 04:04 PM	#61
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Ohio, It is clear that the idea of an exchange of ideas, or one in which we come together to reason (as in "come, let us reason") is not acceptable. Did anyone chase him off? I commented on the certainty (or lack thereof) of the positions. And I mentioned that I was not interested in continuing the discussion. Not because I thought he was necessarily wrong. Rather just not helpful to the purpose of our mission here. But I did not give him his marching papers or order him to cease and desist. (Not that it is my job — and thanks be to God for that.) __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

12-19-2013, 04:15 PM	#62
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? I will say to bro bearbear that if he has a real interest in The Cross he should read Jessie Penn-Lewis. True she may have had some "demon" killer on The Welsh Revival, but she's strong on the cross. Check her out here -> http://jessiepennlewis.com/ __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

12-19-2013, 05:53 PM	#64
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Sorry I owe you all an apology. I should have held my tongue. I left also because I felt I have nothing useful to add that would be constructive. Y'all are right because you have definitely made up your minds. But please forgive me as I will do my best to forgive and walk in love. Pray for me also as I will pray for you. The only suggestion I might put forward is for all of us to just empty our spirits before we come to God's word. As Watchman Nee taught we should do our best to come to God's word without any preconception. I would really like free-grace doctrine to be true so I can have peace about the salvation of my nominal Christian friends and relatives. I wish God could just allow me to go full Joel Osteen preaching a positive message that would be much more palatable, but the more I read scripture the more I just can't make it honestly work in my spirit and in my mind. If any of you can come up with a strong exegetical argument I'm all ears. That said I think my arguments for repentance being necessary for salvation suck compared to what was written here: http://christianity.stackexchange.co...-for-salvation This guy sums is up much better than I can! But if any of you come around to questioning free grace or have any more questions about repentance you can email me at sam@eternityinourheart.com And thanks awareness I will check out that Jesse Penn Lewis book when I can! And sorry about being too pushy concerning this anti free-grace stuff. Part of my anxiety is because I believe Jesus is coming soon-- another reason to repent and get the message of repentance out! You may not believe repentance is necessary for salvation, but is it necessary for the rapture? Matthew 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. Jesus tells us to "watch and pray that we will be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass" in Luke 21:36. Maybe you will be spared from a piano falling on your head But will Jesus rapture someone while they're lusting after a woman in their mind? Will he rapture you if you still have unforgiveness in your heart? Love in Christ, Sam

12-20-2013, 08:24 AM	#71
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? A challenge to everyone: A piano has dropped on your head! You have just died and are now facing the door of eternity into heaven. You consider yourself a Christian who loved Jesus but never confronted your secret sinful habits (e.g. porn, drugs) or maybe your life is really clean but you've held jealousy, hatred or envy against someone that you haven't let go (see Galatians 5:19-21). Expecting to get in to the door through the kingdom of heaven, Jesus approaches you and declares "I never knew you, depart from me you worker of lawlessness". You stand speechless and try to confront him how you have lived your faith. You try to reason with him about the saints that you took care of and shepherded and the countless number of church meetings you attended-- the vacations you even skipped to attend conferences. He points to 2 Timothy 2:19 "But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.” You look down below his feet and realize he's standing on a stone monument which no one can move. On it is the very seal (which cannot change) bearing those words and you just realized that repentance was necessary for salvation. He looks at you again and says: "Haven't you read my book? I warned you that the road to life is narrow and that very few are saved." "You may have sacrificed a lot for me, but I desire obedience and not sacrifice" You plead with the Lord: "Am I not a Christian? Am I not saved? I thought you only have to believe to be saved" He looks at you for the one last time and says: Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. Could this be you or me? Can you argue from scripture how this scenario cannot be? Is there any wiggle room in 2 Timothy 2:19 for someone to belong to the Lord but not turn away from wickedness? Can you come up with an exegetical argument from God's word why this won't happen to someone who is a Christian but is living an unrepentant life in unforgiveness, hatred, envy and strife?

12-20-2013, 08:45 AM	#72
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Bro bear, have you bumped yer head? Cuz I've heard these kinds of stories before, of visits to heaven, from those that have experienced some kind of head injury ... or have died and come back. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

12-20-2013, 09:33 AM	#79
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Also, if being good enough is what it takes to gain eternal salvation, then heaven's going to be pretty empty, because no one is good is enough, because God's standard is perfection. That's why Christ had to die. One sin is one sin too many. The idea that Christ died, but you have to keep repenting up until the microsecond you die in order to be eternally saved is silliness. In any event, saying our eternal salvation depends on Christ plus our works is an insult to Christ and his death and resurrection. What part of this is unclear? "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39 I think "anything else in all creation" includes ourselves.

12-20-2013, 10:08 AM	#89
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? bearbear, didn't you say you were in the local church? How long, if I may ask? How can you still be workin' out repentance and the cross? You must be young ... and filled with excitement over discovering these things ... and obviously excited to share them. Don't let us beat you up, and slow you down. Keep on keepin' on. Just hang on to that which will teach you all things. Yer future is unknown, and wide open. Stay open .. and you'll likely learn more than I know, __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

12-20-2013, 12:52 PM	#96
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? His wife will probably never leave the LC and he has a lot of friends where he's at so he'd probably never entertain the thought of leaving. You can't stay in the local church and reject free grace- it just wouldn't work. He hasn't been very open to my sharing but I understand his situation. My dad on the other hand has no such attachments because his church broke away- Hallelujah! I think it was really God preparing everything. I felt my brother also kind of dismissed me because I meet in one of those "Charismatic" churches. But Jesus told us to judge people by their fruit. I've never seen any Christians who were more loving, forgiving and full of mercy until I found the church I'm at. My first impression after a couple months was like-- "Wow you're telling me that such Christians exist?" I was blown away by their teachings on forgiveness. I was never taught that in LC! I saw testimonies of how people's lives were changed after they forgave their enemies. It was like watching Jesus' words and teachings not just stay as doctrine but by being applied- coming to life through people. The most insane one was this short boy who was bullied all his life. One day he broke down and just couldn't take it anymore, but his Dad pushed him to forgive his bully. He finally did and he'd go to extraordinary lengths to help him with his homework, answer his questions, help him with his bags etc. The love he showed blew the bully's mind away and eventually they became friends. They went on to start a prayer club for the school and it grew to become a school-wide revival resulting in the salvation of many kids-- ALL FROM JUST ONE ACT OF FORGIVENESS. Now the bully is a missionary somewhere in a third world country. Think about what we were missing in the LCs by concentrating on higher truths- and missing things like forgiveness! What also blew me away is one day I realized that I could see this spiritual light -- almost a glowing from some of the more mature members in my church. They loved Jesus and others so much that you could just see it with your spiritual eyes! The scripture "you are the light of the world so let your light shine" became real to me- and not just doctrine! I told the Lord I want to let my light shine too like them. I want to glorify God through my daily interactions with people. Yet these people don't believe in free grace, they hold to an Arminian view of scripture-- yet they love Jesus so much! More than anyone I've met!

12-22-2013, 10:30 PM	#106
james73 Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 71	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Thank-you for your thoughtful response. I will ponder it all over the holidays. Have a happy Christmas!

12-23-2013, 07:59 PM	#107
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? In my personal bible reading I came across Psalms 50. It wonderfully conveys how God's heart is not in sacrifice but obedience unto repentance. “Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, I will testify against you. I am God, your God. Not for your sacrifices do I rebuke you; your burnt offerings are continually before me. I will not accept a bull from your house or goats from your folds. For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the hills, and all that moves in the field is mine. “If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are mine. Do I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats? Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving, and perform your vows to the Most High, and call upon me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.” But to the wicked God says: “What right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips? For you hate discipline, and you cast my words behind you. If you see a thief, you are pleased with him, and you keep company with adulterers. “You give your mouth free rein for evil, and your tongue frames deceit. You sit and speak against your brother; you slander your own mother’s son. These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you. “Mark this, then, you who forget God, lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver! The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me; to one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God!” (Psalm 50:7-23 ESV)

12-26-2013, 01:48 PM	#108
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 620	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Just had this revelation today: According to the Greek, we have to believe "into" (eis) Jesus. Many of the Israelites went only as far as intellectual acknowledgment that Jehovah was God, but they failed to "believe" their way into the good land which was their promise. Similarly many Christians "believe" Jesus exists as the son of God, but have they "believed" their way into Christ? Galatians 5:24 says those who belong to Christ has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. How many Christians are living in envy, strife, jealousy, selfish-ambition, bitterness and unforgiveness? If you take this verse in its literal meaning you can see why Jesus says few are saved, the road is narrow, and many try to get into the door to heaven but fail to. We must have faith like Joshua did, by trusting in God to give us strength, enabling us to slay the giants of our flesh so we can obtain our promised inheritance in heaven. We also need to run away from anxiety and worry because that's the result of the same unbelief that led to the demise of the Israelites in the wilderness. We ultimately worship what we fear. "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience." - Hebrews 4:11 If we're struggling to make something happen in our Christian life we're doing it wrong. All the children of Israel had to do to make it into the good land and conquer it was to relax and know that Jehovah is God, then follow God who was pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, and believe that he would rescue them out of every horrible situation. They just had to live by faith based on God's perfect integrity since he had delivered them from every situation in the past. Instead they chose to live based on what their eyes saw, which included the 30 foot tall giants in Canaan. "for we walk by faith, not by sight." - 2 Corinthians 5:7 This is a wonderful picture God gave us how to live by faith as Christians. First we enter into God's rest by being still and knowing that he is God. Then we follow God by living and walking accord to the Spirit. Then when we encounter horrible situations, we believe that God will deliver us every time. We continue to do this until we enter the door of eternal life either through death or rapture by which we obtain our promised inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. "Be still and know that I am God! I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted among the earth" - Psalms 46:10 "Now then there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" - Romans 8:1 (KJV) "and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain." - 1 Corinthians 15:2

12-30-2013, 04:43 PM	#110
Lisbon Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 117	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? For a number of years I have really been bothered that my LC never speaks of sin or repentance. Some are quite happy that we don't talk about sin or going to hell. That's far too dark. In the last few years the BB's have covered the prophets in the OT and it seems incredible that nothing is ever mentioned about sin or repentance. That is far too low. They just look for Christ. As an old man I have heard solid ministers of the word speak of the prophets and even heard WL agree the prophets were always called in due to the backsliding of possibly both the kings and the priests. Such a wonderful quote-seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his ways and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return to Me. Not exact but close. Of course most of the OT is to God's people. All we like sheep have gone astray and turned to his own way. That's us, the church. We always go astray and the leaders that try to gloss everything over are just workers of iniquity. The early church which we so often hear spoken of with such high regard were quite gone to hell in about 20 years. And of course I don't mean that. But both Paul and John very separately agree the early churches so quickly needed to repent. In the LC there has not been any repentance for well over 50 years and I'm one who says we are far past due. I don't think they can or will ever repent. They are just right and very bull headed. Only the Lord can save us. Lisbon

01-01-2014, 09:40 AM	#113
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. Joh 10:10b I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

01-08-2014, 01:28 PM	#114
Lisbon Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 117	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Concerning repentance, it seems to me that the Word, new and old testaments have so much to say about repentance. As an old man surely I shouod be all smiles with victory after victory in my every day life. But it is not that way. Our lives are full of warfare and you know it. I get sick sometimes going to meetings where the final exhortation is just to love the Lord. Pardon me Ed but sometimes I wish he wouldn't be so loving. EM has had plenty of trouble in the past 25 or 30 years and yet he appears on stage to be all smiles. I don't believe it. WL spoke of Moses and Paul as being near perfect but sorry, I don't believe it. If Paul got perfected on the way to Damascus he and we are not in the same race. John the baptist didn't get perfected, niether did Peter, Barnabas, and a few others. Only WL was perfect and that took looking over sexual immorality and bullying. Without some real repentance I think most of us are very short. We so need to pray to the Lord for mercy. A lot of us came into the LC because there was a real shortage elsewhere and then for me it took a long time to find there was a worse shortage in the LC. Oh Lord help us! Lisbon

04-29-2022, 10:46 AM	#116
Paul Vusik Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Posts: 196	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? Here is LCs definition of “taking a cross”, so for those of you who have issues with the people in LC as cold, uncaring, cannot develop any significant relationships, and other things that have been expressed by a lot of people in multiple threads here, it’s is the result of this awful interpretations that causes people to be that way. There is absolutely nothing else to blame it on, when you read this kind of junk! “What does it mean to bear the cross? To bear the cross means to see that we are finished and ended. As soon as we begin to love someone, the cross will operate in us to kill our love. Can a crucified person still love others by himself? Can someone who is on the cross still be active? Can someone who is on the cross still do something? It is impossible. If we know the cross and bear the cross, we will immediately see that the cross has already terminated us.” https://www.ministrybooks.org/Search...?id=0B00CFC1CD So they consider themselves “non existent”, so asking or expecting anything from a non existent being is just impossible. I guess all I saw at the meetings was just ghosts of people. __________________ “You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis

04-30-2022, 02:06 PM	#117
Paul Vusik Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Posts: 196	Re: Is Repentance and Taking the Cross Necessary for Salvation? As a rebuttal to this nonsense spewed by the LC, as in the quote I posted here yesterday, I wanted to provide couple of verses to show why this concept is not so. It is presented in the LC this way, with a single purpose, that is to hold people hostage, sometimes for their whole life. They think that they can, or do have some kind of means, ways, or even authority to determine each believers personal relationship with God. They can measure, identify, and tell you whether the simplest of things as loving someone, is of your “self”, or of what God through your process of new birth and regeneration has put into your heart. It is absolute spiritual atrocity that any man in this world can commit, by inserting himself or themselves into that position. They judge a persons spiritual life, and their growth in life, based on their own live, own experiences, or lack there of. For the most part, people who do this, have nothing to offer, nothing to build people up with, nothing to give to people in terms of spiritual food for their growth. But it’s just to knock them down, tell them they are “fleshly and soulish”, and have a long way to go to catch up to them. They have the template that everyone is inserted and measured with, no questions asked or objections to be made. On the other hand, there is real, beautiful, and truly living life, that has been given to each and every born again believer! This life, cannot be faked, cannot be destroyed, questioned, knock down or subjected to men’s templates. That life, is there by the grace and mercy of God. It teaches you, it instills Godly ways and principles through the work of the Holy Spirit. No man can know this life in you, besides you. The only thing that they will be able to say, that there is something different about this person. They will see the fruits of the work of God in you! What’s really unfortunate today, is that people that have none of those things happening in their life’s, are the ones that determining your growth. They installed themselves as the “caretakers” by every possible way that they could. They sure are the most humble of people, polite, and present themselves as the most genuine. But what gives them away, is that the things that they ask of others, they can’t exhibit themselves, so they always have to knock everyone down so they don’t get ahead of where they are at. God forbid you actually love your neighbor, or you care for someone when they don’t. How would that make them look? Well, I will just say that next time one of those man, tells you that you are in your soul, you need to give up, you need to die, even though God has done otherwise in your life and you know it better that them, there is an unction in you that testifying otherwise: tell that person just like Jesus did to Peter, “get thee behind me satan”! Don’t let them trample what God has done for you! Don’t let them steal those precious things that God has put in you! Don’t let them question your heart and then question God! Be bold and courageous like that blind man in John 9, who didn’t let these filthy leaders destroy that what Jesus has done for Him, but stood tall, even at the cost of being cast out of the synagogue. Because even if they do, Jesus will be there for you more that before. He will take care of you, way more that any of those man ever wished or are capable of. Trust in Jesus, and not in any man! 2 Tim 2:11 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: Romans 8:11 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Colossians 2:18-23 18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21(Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. God bless! __________________ “You never know how much you really believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you.” ― C.S. Lewis