The Asian Mind/The Western Mind - Page 2

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 06:51 AM

Today every LC uses only Lee's books for their teaching and the content of their gatherings. Not just any old Lee books, but they must use the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And not just any old HWFMR off their shelves, but it must be the one from the latest "Feast." And for those who are not in the know, this "Feast" is the latest semi-annual training held at LSM's headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

Don't think every LC arrived at this decision freely and amicably. This strict practice took decades to reach. Literally hundreds of LC elders resisted their bully tactics over the years, citing their God-given responsibilities to shepherd their own church. But years of coercion, manipulation, threatening, quarantines, evictions, and lawsuits were used to reach such a goal. This takeover work by Lee/LSM began in 1974, about the time I first contacted the LC, and ended with the GLA quarantines, when I left the LC.

In the beginning the LC's were Christ-centered gatherings in each locality, or "local" church. At least it was that way for all of us young brothers and sisters. Slowly we transitioned to "ministry-centered" franchises for the building up of "the body." Why? Because Christ-centered gatherings in each locality created too much "independence" for each member, each eldership, and each LC. So-called "independence" or "autonomy" was great for the children of God, since congregations could more readily focus on shepherding their own members and communities, but bad for business, LSM's that is.

And LSM is all about control. Lee made that clear. He once said that he would rather have ten who were absolutely one with him, than all the LC's. This explains why LSM seems unfazed with the loss of thousands of former members in the Midwest and Brazil. Their message has been simple: If you don't like things our way, just leave, but don't take your meeting hall, it's ours.

Drake · 07-02-2018, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

We'd like to know, if the shape of the local churches must be exactly identical, what shape they should be: triangular? If so, isosceles or equilateral? Or, perhaps cylindrical? Or maybe a nice neat cube? Lee just said "shape" and went on, but if we all should be exactly identical in shape then probably we need a little more information.....

....The local churches are to be exactly identical, but in what way? In shape? How are we supposed to implement that? ....

...he was an angry Chinese man defending his business interests....

In the footnote to Revelation 1:20 I see a Chinese fox-tail. How are local churches supposed to be exactly identical in "shape"?

.... and pointed to stuff like this as my reasoning. I also mentioned other things as well but got challenged on a footnote so here we are.

Aron,

We’ve already covered nature, shape, and purpose and if you don’t like Brother Lees definition in the footnote from Revelation 1:20, or mine in this thread.. then I suggest you digest Trapped’s definitions concerning the heavenly and earthly realm in post #147. I agree with those aspects of his post. I also demonstrated by way of comparison the nature, shape, and purpose of angels, a topic you introduced.

What I observe in your posts is an oft repeated anti-Chinese theme. It’s almost like you ended up on the losing side when everybody was Kung Fu fighting.

Frankly, I don’t know why you are so obsessive but this much I do know. We are here for one simple reason, that you misappropriated a phrase out of a footnote, which you hadn’t read, and spun it to mean something entirely different from its context or original definition. That is sophistry and is unbecoming of a Christian brother, which you are. Yet, one cannot stop you from falsehood, hate mongering, obsessing over Asian/Chinese culture, fabricating allegations out of your imagination etc....but I will it point out when I see you do it. That is just one aspect of my personalized care for you.

Here is another aspect of my care for you: Now that your “Chinese culture narrative” that you attempted to derive from the footnote in Revelation 1:20 has been thoroughly disproven and shown to be false.... out of the thousands and thousands of messages spoken and documented by Witness Lee there must be at least one statement that substantiates your assertion. No need to imagine such things, no need to rely on others who heard someone who overheard someone else, you don’t even need to depend on what some elder or coworker said...rather let’s hear it straight from the man himself, for such an important task as casting Chinese culture into divine matters must be accomplished with some degree of certitude. What did a Witness Lee say about culture and Chinese culture specifically?

Drake

Sons to Glory! · 07-02-2018, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Today every LC uses only Lee's books for their teaching and the content of their gatherings. Not just any old Lee books, but they must use the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And not just any old HWFMR off their shelves, but it must be the one from the latest "Feast." And for those who are not in the know, this "Feast" is the latest semi-annual training held at LSM's headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

Don't think every LC arrived at this decision freely and amicably. This strict practice took decades to reach. Literally hundreds of LC elders resisted their bully tactics over the years, citing their God-given responsibilities to shepherd their own church. But years of coercion, manipulation, threatening, quarantines, evictions, and lawsuits were used to reach such a goal. This takeover work by Lee/LSM began in 1974, about the time I first contacted the LC, and ended with the GLA quarantines, when I left the LC.

In the beginning the LC's were Christ-centered gatherings in each locality, or "local" church. At least it was that way for all of us young brothers and sisters. Slowly we transitioned to "ministry-centered" franchises for the building up of "the body." Why? Because Christ-centered gatherings in each locality created too much "independence" for each member, each eldership, and each LC. So-called "independence" or "autonomy" was great for the children of God, since congregations could more readily focus on shepherding their own members and communities, but bad for business, LSM's that is.

And LSM is all about control. Lee made that clear. He once said that he would rather have ten who were absolutely one with him, than all the LC's. This explains why LSM seems unfazed with the loss of thousands of former members in the Midwest and Brazil. Their message has been simple: If you don't like things our way, just leave, but don't take your meeting hall, it's ours.

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But I want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

We’ve already covered nature, shape, and purpose and if you don’t like Brother Lees definition in the footnote from Revelation 1:20.

What I observe in your posts is an oft repeated anti-Chinese theme.

Actually we have not "covered" all of the implications of Lee's teachings on Rev. 1:20. And once again, when pressured with the truth, Drake falls back to his own fortified strongholds of accusing us of bitterness, lies, falsehoods, hate mongering, obsessing, fabricating allegations, etc. After having heard Lee/LSM assault Christianity for 40+ years, Drake just can't help himself.

After having personally read all of aron's posts, I don't see these anti-Chinese themes. What I see is Lee/LSM selling these "Chinese themes" as spiritual themes to an unsuspecting Western people, and aron pointing it out to us. Should not we examine Lee's teachings in the light of scripture and LC history? Did not Apostle Paul teach us to "Test all things, hold on to the good" (I Thess. 5.21)?

WL/LSM hold and spread exclusive teachings all together unique to their movement. The rest of the body of Christ has never accepted them, or has long ago decided to reject them. Whether Drake likes it or not, these teachings should be examined.

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But I want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

I agree we all have warts, me too. Big ones. And we love all the saints with warts.

But if we have a Publisher/Ministry that is causing a "wart pandemic" then it behooves us to check it out, don't you think?

Drake · 07-02-2018, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

Have a safe trip and an enjoyable time.

This whole criticism of the HWMR is a tempest in a teapot.. way overblown. I grew up reading weekly lessons in the Baptist Church. I taught weekly lessons from the Assembly of God publications.

When I came into the Lords recovery over four decades ago there was no HWMR. Mostly, it was one man speaking a message and the testimonies afterward often bore very little resemblance to the message just spoken. I enjoyed those testimonies but they were scattered on many topics and often they were time consuming sea stories. The consideration at the time was to bring all the members of the Body into their function in the local church meetings so the format had to change from one-to-many (one five talented functioning) to many-to-many (functioning one talented ones)... of course that precipitated objections from those who were used to giving messages... but I digress. However, though more had something and more time was available for that, the prophesying meeting still lacked focus and some interpreted the vacuum created when the one man stopped speaking as an invitation to fill that gap. Also, not every member had a practical way to create a prophesy that would edify the members. We were transitioning from an older unscriptural model to the 1 Corinthians 14 model of each one has. Not every member knew how to function and the objective was to help every member to fulfill their God given priestly function. The HWMR addressed those needs and having lived before, during the transition and after I can testify that it brought much needed edification to those meetings.

Drake

aron · 07-02-2018, 08:29 AM

-6

Drake,

So according to the "Shape" definition in post #147 is we are all believers, so all local churches that contain believers are exactly identical in "shape", whether or not "they take the 'local ground'"? Whether or not they read HWMR on Sunday morning? Okay, guess I totally missed that. So Lee is saying that all believers everywhere have the exact same shape, form and purpose? Irrespective of their "affiliation" with the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee? Well, I feel dull, and confess I totally missed that. I thought it was a prescription for outward conformity. He's saying we all already have perfect heavenly "conformity" regardless of present earthly appearances?

Good - part one is resolved. Mea culpa. Now what about part two: not having any individual distinctiveness? I don't know how any "normal" person could interpret that except what it seems to be saying, which is what I thought the first part was saying, that everyone has to be "exactly identical" outwardly in appearance, in expression, etc. Which is, for lack of a better term, "crazytown". Unless you can show us what he really meant?

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there. If you'd bother to read it, you'd see that I'm not the only one who's noticed these things. In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Here was a response to my initial post on that thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Good observation, Aron.

I'm neither Western nor Asian but I live in a Chinese community. I like these people. Though I believe I'll be always an outsider for them. Anyway, in three words, I'd describe the Chinese mentality as:

1) Subordination;
2) Collectiveness;
3) “Us” versus “Them” mentality. (Well, that is slightly more than one word

)

Generally, the Chinese are also lack of creativity and tend to imitate or copy someone else's models and patterns.

BTW, can you guess whose quote is this: "The individual is subordinate to the organisation. The minority is subordinate to the majority. The lower level is subordinate to the higher level"...

That was Mao Tse-tung's quote but it pretty much sums up the LC's value system.

There are about 350 comments on the thread. Here is another one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been tooting this horn about the dichotomy between Eastern and Western cultures being at the root of the problems in the Recovery for years. Waking up to the realization that I had grown up in, and given my life to propagate, an incognito Chinese church was deeply disturbing, but the conviction only gets clearer as the years go by.

I stumbled in here today by chance. Wasn't even aware this forum existed. Reading this thread almost gave me goosebumps, to finally hear some traction for this understanding. In a discussion that I didn't personally initiate, no less. Actually, most of what I've had are monologues, not discussions. Nice to see that someone else can connect the dots.

Once you see this dichotomy clearly, I believe you'll recognize that nearly every gripe from disgruntled ex-members or frustrated current members has its roots in Asian cultural values that got institutionalized so deeply into the practices of the Local Churches that they create an atmosphere of expectations so rigid they are just as effective at enforcing conformity as posting a bouncer at the door, or a requiring a profession of doctrinal faith that one must sign in order to be fully received into the circle of fellowship. Some of the Asian cultural elements relate to standards of conduct that are pushed as if essential to the Christian life. Others elements are Eastern cultural values that make their way into doctrinal stances on minor truths, and then get stressed like major ones. The manifestations are numerous, but the root is the same. We (they) failed to distinguish between Lee's culture and his portion of Christ.

On the one hand, I believe this is the glaringly obvious "elephant in the room" that even the current leaders in the Recovery acknowledge has been wreaking havoc and hemorrhaging the life-blood of what, by all rights, should be a thriving organism. Whether they see the elephant for what it truly is or not is not for me to say, but I've been encouraged just to hear they acknowledge the problems it causes for them. And that encouragement is not rooted in cynicism toward them.

On the other hand, though, there is a reason why so many members can't see the elephant, and why the leaders (in my view) should be given some slack for failing to evict it. I bumped into it daily, got trampled by it with bothersome frequency, and wrestled with it on and off for over a decade before all the loose threads of my chronic frustrations got tied together by the common thread of Asian culture, at which point the resultant tapestry finally came together. It was a relief in the small sense that the puzzle finally got solved and yielded a coherent picture. But it was devastating at the same time -- my faith got rocked and my Christian life got shipwrecked by the disappointment. Blindness is not always willful, and the more painful the picture, the more innate subconscious defense mechanisms there are to prevent you from seeing it.

Plus, it's a complex picture, not a simple line-drawing. I blame no one for not being able to connect the dots without help. It took me about 30 pages even just to put my thoughts on the topic together when a brother asked me to connect the dots for him by giving detailed explanations rather than generalizations. It's like walking someone through calculus, when you can jump 5 steps at a time, but they need each little one spelled out for them separately in order to see the connections at first. I'll probably share pieces of that effort here as the discussion progresses, but I'm leery of becoming one more disgruntled bozo with an angry manifesto. (Sorry if that that offends anyone here; I trust most of you here, like me, have been there for a time, even if you've moved past that phase.)

For the record: I have no interest in WL, LC, or BB bashing. I bless the Lord for the privilege of growing up and giving my best years whole-heartedly to be receive what these people gained of Christ, and serve together with them. Some of you here, I feel, have some issues with bitterness that you would do well to seek help dealing with. God forbid that He eventually has to judge you with the same strictness and enthusiasm with which some of you here are casting stones. I have no interest in participating in that or providing ammunition for those who are just looking for rocks to throw rather than to build something with.

If there have been moral or ethical wrongdoings that set some of you off, I can't speak to that, as I never noticed such things in greater frequency or severity than are common to any institution, sacred or secular. I'm just talking about the personal offenses and reactionary cynicism that rise up when a person finds out they don't fit in to something they had hoped to be a part of at some point. I still struggle with disappointment that there seems to be no place for me among what those dear folks are doing. But I'm dealing with it, and staying positive is part of how that is best done.

So if you don't want to "connect the dots" that's fine. But don't play so insulted when others do.

BTW, there are LOTS of problems of the "everything goes" freedom-first individualistic Western mind. The Chinese (and Koreans and Japanese and Indians &c) have a lot to show us. God created them, too.

Sons to Glory! · 07-02-2018, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I agree we all have warts, me too. Big ones. And we love all the saints with warts.

But if we have a Publisher/Ministry that is causing a "wart pandemic" then it behooves us to check it out, don't you think?

And that's what I intend to do, the Lord willing!

As said before, what you describe is generally what I saw during my last visit. But also, I don't just want to be with the LC saints to judge them, but rather to experience Christ with them, just as I would those in other Christian groups. The Anointing will show and speak to me as He wills.

UntoHim · 07-02-2018, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there.

Sorry aron, I was thinking of this thread but I couldn't find it. Thanks for digging this one up and I have merged the two threads.

Quote:

In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Excellent point! I just recently pointed out how Hanegraaff et all called the Local Church "a Chinese interpretation of Christianity" (paraphrase) If this had been said by any of us "opposers" or "bitter ex members" the Local Church minions would have gone ballistic. Thanks, aron, for pointing out the glaring hypocrisy.
-

Drake · 07-02-2018, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

-6

Drake,

So according to the "Shape" definition in post #147 is we are all believers, so all local churches that contain believers are exactly identical in "shape", whether or not "they take the 'local ground'"? Whether or not they read HWMR on Sunday morning? Okay, guess I totally missed that. So Lee is saying that all believers everywhere have the exact same shape, form and purpose? Irrespective of their "affiliation" with the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee? Well, I feel dull, and confess I totally missed that. I thought it was a prescription for outward conformity. He's saying we all already have perfect heavenly "conformity" regardless of present earthly appearances?

Good - part one is resolved. Mea culpa. Now what about part two: not having any individual distinctiveness? I don't know how any "normal" person could interpret that except what it seems to be saying, which is what I thought the first part was saying, that everyone has to be "exactly identical" outwardly in appearance, in expression, etc. Which is, for lack of a better term, "crazytown". Unless you can show us what he really meant?

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there. If you'd bother to read it, you'd see that I'm not the only one who's noticed these things. In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Here was a response to my initial post on that thread:

There are about 350 comments on the thread. Here is another one.

So if you don't want to "connect the dots" that's fine. But don't play so insulted when others do.

BTW, there are LOTS of problems of the "everything goes" freedom-first individualistic Western mind. The Chinese (and Koreans and Japanese and Indians &c) have a lot to show us. God created them, too.

aron,

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating the footnote you referenced, that you didn't actually read) is missed on you? Had you not used it in a failed attempt to substantiate your narrative there would be no discussion about it... just an anecdotal exchange between you and I who have different experiences in life. You would have your view of things and I would have mine. But you didn't.... you did what many people who want to take Witness Lee and his followers down... you twisted what the man actually said to create a straw man of your own creation so you could set it afire to roars of approval from the usual crowd.

But look, your personal views do not matter to me at all. I'm happy for you.... you have something to jump out of bed for everyday... maybe a sense of purpose in life. The sense of pride that is found with crusaders of justice. Who knows?

But, this is an important topic... please provide a direct quote from Witness Lee himself to substantiate your assertion.... let's have a look.

Thanks
Drake

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating the footnote you referenced, that you didn't actually read) is missed on you? Had you not used it a a failed attempt to substantiate your narrative there would be no discussion about it... just an anecdotal exchange between you and I who have different experiences in life. You would have your view of things and I would have mine. But you didn't.... you did what many people who want to take Witness Lee and his followers down... you twisted what the man actually said to create a straw man of your own creation so you could set it afire to roars of approval from the usual crowd.

There's no crowd here like there was at Whistler, that Kangaroo Court that unleashed LSM's legal thugs on the Midwest LC's. And it was you and Witness Lee who took down all those men of God like John Ingalls who cried out for justice on behalf of the sisters molested by Philip Lee at the LSM offices.

Drake, you have a serious problem with paranoia and the facts of history at LSM. Please don't project them onto aron.

aron · 07-02-2018, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating

Thanks
Drake

I'm sure you were outraged when you found out the lies behind the FPR, weren't you? Righteous indignation boiled over I'm sure.

Witness Lee made a long career out of misappropriating and mis-representing so get off your high horse. And I didn't charge you any money, either. If "exactly identical" is a heavenly abode of celestial "lampstands", not the actual physical churches on the ground (thus we can ignore the words "shape" which would otherwise have no practical meaning), you still haven't explained how there can be no individual distinction between the churches?

You quoted the footnote and I copied it. What does, Not having any individual distinctiveness mean? Something in heaven? Or on earth? It is not self-evident, unless it means what I think it means, which is Witness Lee was telling the churches to get in line and be quiet. If it means something else you should say it instead of hiding behind a barrage of bluster. Just say it. What does it mean? It is the words from Witness Lee. Revelation 1:20 Footnote whatever.

Here are the Great Man's actual words:

"but positively, in their nature, shape, and purpose, they are absolutely identical and are connected to one another". So Laodicea and Ephesus were connected. As were the Baptist and the RCC and all the other "churches of history". Right? The connection, being heavenly, transcends space and time and culture. Good.

Now, "absolutely identical" in "nature, shape, and purpose". So this means, again, the Baptist and RCC and EOC and all other groups are absolutely identical in confession and faith and hope. Like you and I are absolutely identical, being both created in the image of our Maker.

Okay, I get part one.

Now what about part two. Again let's focus on the Great Man's words and not get distracted by rock pigeons or ukuleles.

"They not only are shining locally but also are bearing universally the same testimony both to the localities and to the universe. They are of the same nature and in the same shape. They bear the same lamp for the same purpose and are fully identified with one another, not having any individual distinctiveness. "

"No individual distinctiveness" - what does this mean, please? I get the "bearing universally" part as in Part One. The Baptists and RCC and EOC and Presbyterians all bear universally the same nature, shape, purpose, the same light, the same glory, the same hope. All of them are exactly the same. Amazing footnote, really I like it a lot. Again MEA CULPA if I misunderstood it.

But what of "Not having any individual distinctiveness"? What does that mean? I don't want to misunderstand. It LOOKS LIKE Witness Lee was telling everybody to be the same in expression. In heaven I see distinctiveness. Like I said, star differs from star in glory. No problem. So the quote "The differences among the seven churches recorded in chs. 2 and 3 are all of a negative nature," makes no sense. Because you already said that there is no difference! Everyone is exactly the same! Same shape! Same nature! Same purpose! Suddenly we talk of differences....

So this is why they go to FTT? To understand footnotes? Because the footnotes contradict. First they say we are EXACTLY THE SAME with no differences and then there are differences. And clearly there are individual distinctivenesses in heaven. The seven stars which are the seven angels to the seven churches - how do you know they are exactly identical? You don't. The twelve gates? The fruit bearing each month from the tree of life? Do you think that each fruit tastes exactly the same, with no individual distinctiveness? No?

So there is some 'mystical' meaning to the words which we assume Lee had, and we are to soak in them and become divine in life and nature? But don't bother trying to understand it? Because you are not helping. The only way to "get" the footnote is to repeat it, "shape, amen, shape" and don't think about what the words mean. Otherwise, it looks to me like Lee is trying to make everyone exactly the same. Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books. (Only we had Rainbow Booklets). No you say, it is a heavenly view. But you don't explain it. You just bluster and act upset.

So explain it. Explain what these words mean. "No individual distinctiveness". Either in heaven or on earth. It LOOKS LIKE Lee was trying to control and manipulate the believers. What was he really doing?

"No individual distinctiveness" What does it mean? I literally have never heard of such a thing. The universe is full of distinctiveness. Where is this place of Full Sameness? The Full Time Training? Is that the Gate of Heaven? Everyone dress the same? Because the Footnote 1:20 from the RecV and what I remember from the LC resonate. The Individual is Gone and you are now in the Hive. And one day you realize this is not heaven but the Witness Lee Duplication Factory. Everybody is Exactly the Same. No Individual Distinctiveness.

I figured it was Chinese culture. Fallen humanity trying to reach God. You say it's not. Well then what is it? Please explain.

It sure LOOKS to me like bricks and slime building the tower of Babel all over again, but you say it's not, it's "intrinsically" something or other. "Universally divine" or something but the words make no sense. Maybe the FTT can help. Like they say, "You have to see the vision." They probably say something like that in the college meetings: "Don't try to understand. Just go to the FTT".

Drake · 07-02-2018, 02:15 PM

-1

aron>"Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books."

.....and there it is again.. right on schedule. The use of loaded terms. Chinese imagery too. A double whammy.

Aron, your constant use of loaded terms exposes the weakness and fallacy of your argument.

Argument by Emotive Language (also known as: loaded words, loaded language, euphemisms)
Description: Substituting facts and evidence with words that stir up emotion, with the attempt to manipulate others into accepting the truth of the argument.

Drake

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

aron>"Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books."

.....and there it is again.. right on schedule. The use of loaded terms. Chinese imagery too. A double whammy.

Aron, your constant use of loaded terms exposes the weakness and fallacy of your argument.

Argument by Emotive Language (also known as: loaded words, loaded language, euphemisms)
Description: Substituting facts and evidence with words that stir up emotion, with the attempt to manipulate others into accepting the truth of the argument.

Drake

So predictable, as you said "right on schedule."

Once again Drake is found hiding under the rug of some supposed "Logical Fallacy."

aron · 07-02-2018, 04:08 PM

-2

Drake ok.

Sorry, but I'm being honest and telling you what I see. I see the words, "not having any individual distinctiveness" and that's what I see. I don't see the Bible. Paul told us, God gives gifts that differ. Some have a tongue, some an interpretation. Some are prophets some are apostles. I see distinctions, individual distinctiveness. Yet the footnote tells me no.

I see, star differs from star in glory but the footnote says no.

You feign outrage but where is the competing vision? It took poster named "Trapped" to rescue you from part one, the "exactly identical" part in "shape". I don't ever remember hearing that a church had a shape. What was I supposed to see?

But hooray for "Trapped" who explained it nicely. Then I give you every opportunity to explain part two and you become indignant. But no answers.

aron · 07-02-2018, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Once again Drake is found hiding under the rug of some supposed "Logical Fallacy."

Well I set him up and you set me up. You were the one who told us what you saw in the FTTT. How Lee beamed over the crowd dressed identically! Finally we were all "one"!

I saw a cultural component in this enforced homogeneity. Now, other groups practice similar acculturation techniques, but how many Exclusive Brethren are there two centuries on? Compared to how the Nee/Lee group took off and even metastised among the Chinese. So I say there's a cultural connection. Centuries of culture have 'primed' them for this group. Contrast to the west, where individualism is ingrained in our psyche. Harder to find the Hive Mind.

Some westerners do but it's not nearly as pronounced.

aron · 07-02-2018, 04:25 PM

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

Now, read the footnote in Revelation 1:20 and tell me what you see.

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Well I set him up and you set me up. You were the one who told us what you saw in the FTTT. How Lee beamed over the crowd dressed identically! Finally we were all "one"!

It was the Training in Taipei May 1987, the place was that big auditorium in Hall#1. Our uniform was blue slacks for guys and blue skirts for the ladies. All of us wore white shirts and LSM ties, and blue jackets with LSM logos. WL loved it -- the sea of blue! He would even get upset if a seat was empty.

When the training first started, at our first get together for the elders and responsible ones at Hall#3, an orientation session, one brother DP of Florida mistakenly wore a "secular" tie. AY just reamed him out, up and down, left and right, front and back, all for our "edification." After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office.

I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

The next day I successfully overturned it on appeal.

They even went so far as to assign teenage trainees to inspect our underwear drawers. That really upset a few brothers. WL was reputed to be so godly that even his socks and ties were all in order. I would credit his wife or laundry service for that. I heard a number of horror stories from WL about co-workers who threw their socks on the table and on the lampshade. Egads!

I regularly heard about those "Witness Lee Duplication Centers" and "Witness Lee Tape Recorders." I never heard that in my LC or in Cleveland. Only when traveling to Anaheim or other LSM venues did I hear about that crazy stuff.

Were you there for that, "Let's Go, Lin Ko!"?

I KNOW that our friend DRAKE was there for that!

Sons to Glory! · 07-02-2018, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was the Training in Taipei May 1987, the place was that big auditorium in Hall#1. Our uniform was blue slacks for guys and blue skirts for the ladies. All of us wore white shirts and LSM ties, and blue jackets with LSM logos. WL loved it -- the sea of blue! He would even get upset if a seat was empty.

When the training first started, at our first get together for the elders and responsible ones at Hall#3, an orientation session, one brother DP of Florida mistakenly wore a "secular" tie. AY just reamed him out, up and down, left and right, front and back, all for our "edification." After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office.

I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

The next day I successfully overturned it on appeal.

They even went so far as to assign teenage trainees to inspect our underwear drawers. That really upset a few brothers. WL was reputed to be so godly that even his socks and ties were all in order. I would credit his wife or laundry service for that. I heard a number of horror stories from WL about co-workers who threw their socks on the table and on the lampshade. Egads!

I regularly heard about those "Witness Lee Duplication Centers" and "Witness Lee Tape Recorders." I never heard that in my LC or in Cleveland. Only when traveling to Anaheim or other LSM venues did I hear about that crazy stuff.

Were you there for that, "Let's Go, Lin Ko!"?

I KNOW that our friend DRAKE was there for that!

Wow! This is stuff that should be in a movie as it sounds downright entertaining! If what you say is really true (and I have little reason to doubt what you say), then PRAISE THE LORD that He got my family the heck out of Dodge before all that nonsense found it's way to us! Thank you Jesus!!!

It's hard to imagine how we let ourselves get lead like that . . .

Drake · 07-02-2018, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

Now, read the footnote in Revelation 1:20 and tell me what you see.

A poll?

It’s irrelevant especially in a one sided forum like this one.

Hate the break the news to you Aron. That is called “ Argumentum ad populum “

“In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, vox populi,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans").“

Drake

Sons to Glory! · 07-02-2018, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

I don't believe I heard those specific things. But I stayed in Ohio in the 80s - didn't go to trainings then - when all that stuff was supposedly going on. According to what I'm hearing, Ohio was more insulated from this stuff than other places at that time. (I guess that's one of the things that got them in trouble . . .)

Trapped · 07-02-2018, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office. I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

This still happens in the FTTA (at least in the last 7-8 years). Trainees can literally receive a citation letter essentially questioning their heart for/consecration to the Lord due to a minor (and I mean minor) dress code violation.

Talk about heavy-handed.

Many trainees, both from decades ago and to this day, are also fully aware that red is an especially egregious color to be caught with on their person.

aron · 07-03-2018, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Drake ok.

Sorry, but I'm being honest and telling you what I see. I see the words, "not having any individual distinctiveness" and that's what I see. I don't see the Bible. Paul told us, God gives gifts that differ. Some have a tongue, some an interpretation. Some are prophets some are apostles. I see distinctions, individual distinctiveness. Yet the footnote tells me no. . . I give you every opportunity to explain part two and you become indignant. But no answers.

I recently noticed Paul writing to the Romans and telling them of the "gentile churches". "They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them."

So I see distinctiveness. There are churches of the gentiles. They are not "exactly identical" in outward appearance, or "shape" in any way I would understand the word. Maybe in heaven they are "one" in Christ, and to some degree should express this on earth (and Paul sought in his ministry to do just this, for example not his continued references to the "offerings of the gentiles" for the poor in Jerusalem).

But I don't see anyone trying to eliminate "individual distinctiveness" the way Lee apparently was in his footnote (Drake still has nor explained what Lee really meant, so I have to go by what it looks like). In fact when some came from James to apparently "eliminate the distinctiveness" of the Antiochian gentiles Paul resisted, loudly. (See Gal 2).

Quote:

THE HIDDEN HISTORY THE LOCAL CHURCH OF WITNESS LEE IN AMERICA
1. An official Letter of Dissociation signed by 21 Local Church leaders in Europe dissociating themselves from the LSM because: "It has come to our attention recently through several witnesses that gross immorality and some other sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 5:11 have been committed by your son Philip Lee (who is identified as your Ministry Office) on more than one occasion over a long period of time. This deeply disturbs us. It grieves us even more that you and some of your close coworkers were aware of the situation and yet not only tolerated it but covered it up."
2. The testimony of John So who also wrote "I Myself Also Am A Man" to refute the heresy of man becoming God.
3. A letter by Bill Mallon to Witness Lee explaining how the LSM abused the Local Churches in the Southeast U.S. where he was once a coworker. The author of the site also does a comparison of what Lee said Bill wrote to him and what Bill actually did write to him.
4. Exerpts from a book by John Ingalls, another fomrer coworker who knew Witness Lee, the LSM, etc. intimately. His book is tilted "Speaking the Truth in Love" and explains what happened in the Local Churches and LSM during the late 80's and early 90's.
5. Refers to an 11 page letter by Ken Unger's wife. Ken Unger was a leader in Huntington Beach and his wife worked in the LSM and knew how it operated. When she and Ken tried to read this well prepared letter to Witness Lee he cut her off and would not let her finish.
6. Rosemead division details exposing the very adverse effect the LSM at on that congregation and other ridiculous teachings and practices from the LSM such as:
a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues."
b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead."
c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right."
d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters."
The leader sent there by Witness Lee i.e. Francis Ball, under the direction of LSM, did such things as lock the meeting place to force the congregation to go to LSM meetings in Anaheim instead of their own, etc.
7. Raleigh leaders visit to Witness Lee. These leaders prepared a 71 page work titled: "Concerns Regarding our Practice Regarding Truth and Life" which Witness Lee promised to review with them. But when they went to talk with him they testified Brother Lee had no ear to hear them. It was as if they were talking to a wall.
8. OKC Couple. Refers to a couple in the Local Church in OKC who divorced against the wife's wishes. The wife was shunned by the Local Church there because she said it was becoming a cult. The leaders were not against the husband divorcing his wife and the wife was never allowed to enter their meeting hall again. When she tried the leaders told her to get off their property or they would call the police.
9. Witness Lee's Sons: A long 44 page e-mail dialogue with a former Local Church leader and the author of the Hiding History site detailing the behind the scences corrupt financial and ual adventures of Witness Lee's sons and the LSM against the members of the Local Churches and how Witness Lee knowingly covered it up and even engaged in some of the corrupt financial dealings himself.
Again, this is not an exhaustive list of contents but it should give the reader of this posting the general idea of the sort of things that go on in the Local Church and LSM and why many many believers left and still leave when they find out what really goes on underneath the shiny "spiritual" veneer and bullying legal tactics.

Note Point 6, a-d for quotes which indicate what happens when one culture begins to dominate.

Below another quote from an observer of the change to ministry control and the "flavor" and "atmosphere" that it brought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger

looking back I realize that Lee's methodology was like that of one incensed with control - he had to be the MANAGER (because he "had the gray hair") of everything and dictate to all. Some day he will have to face the Almighty for the damage he did to so many young people who were hurt by his actions and his subtle manners. In sum: He was a Chinese War Lord and practiced it with amazing cunning.

I gradually began to see what W.L. stood for and later on realized that his "doctrine of control" was exceedingly cruel and nefarious - he and Joe Stalin would have had much in common!

He could never give up anything to the Lord--he insisted on controlling all the churches, the workers and the elders--his model was that of the Antioch Church (so he claimed and so did Watchman Nee claim as well in Further Talks on the Church Life). In his last meeting with Doug Shearer and me he took out a copy of this text and read the following:

"I seems that Antioch was controlling them."

Then we asked Witness Lee: Was Watchman Nee referring to Antioch's "controlling them" - the antecedent of "them" - does it refer to the churches, the workers or the elders? Lee replied: ALL of them! At that point I looked at Doug Shearer and said: I think it's time for us to leave.

Lee had expressed the most totalitarian concept in Church control--more so than that of Pope Benedict's recent declarations that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church and that all others are "deficient" and/or "lesser" and even eluded to the fact that salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church is NOT an option, not viable--Lee, in essence, declared that the L.C. was virtually the only expression outside of Babylon. This arrogant, preposterous, exclusive, demeaning and pompous attitude and even belief system, is so outrageous and defining of a state of super spirituality that the only thing that one can conclude is a spiritual pride far and beyond anything uttered by modern man, aside from overt cults who acclaim the same but, even then, provide variety of expression--unlike the L.C. wherein all things must mimic the (as it is expressed now) the Living Stream Ministry--even the Methodists have not this conformity!

Sons to Glory! · 07-03-2018, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger SEE HERE: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...7373#post77373
looking back I realize that Lee's methodology was like that of one incensed with control - he had to be the MANAGER (because he "had the gray hair") of everything and dictate to all. Some day he will have to face the Almighty for the damage he did to so many young people who were hurt by his actions and his subtle manners. In sum: He was a Chinese War Lord and practiced it with amazing cunning.

Aron - Thanks much for posting that quote from Doug Krieger! I was able to go to that thread from 2015 (which you started) and read about what he said concerning Berkeley in 1974! This filled in some details about why Doug et. al., were expelled from there, which I've been wondering about for over 40 years!

(On that thread I asked if there has been any updates regarding Doug Krieger since it was posted in 2015.)

Ohio · 07-03-2018, 11:49 AM

Quote:

6. Rosemead division details exposing the very adverse effect the LSM at on that congregation and other ridiculous teachings and practices from the LSM such as:

a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues."
b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead."
c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right."
d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters."

The leader sent there by Witness Lee i.e. Francis Ball, under the direction of LSM, did such things as lock the meeting place to force the congregation to go to LSM meetings in Anaheim instead of their own, etc.

Drake has squirmed every time aron has mention Asian influences, yet there was a chaotic time when the leaders at LSM were actively employing Communist tactics in their takeover of the LC's.

Drake also squirms when I brought up their bully tactics at the little Mansfield LC in Ohio, claiming it was all justified because somebody was locked out of the meeting hall. Here we see senior Blended FB doing the same.

Drake condemned TC and the young Mansfield elders for doing this, let's see if he will also condemn WL and FB for doing the same in Rosemead.

Trapped · 07-06-2018, 06:06 PM

Is the ground of oneness concept unique to the LRC? Does the LRC consider that a "recovered" concept/practice? Or have there been other groups after the NT time but prior to Nee/Lee who saw/practiced the same thing?

Ohio · 07-06-2018, 06:23 PM

They stole the "ground" from the exclusive British Plymouth Brethren, who also have a checkered history of lawsuits, divisions, and excommunications.
Nee was a part of the Exclusive Brethren until he committed a "mortal sin." He joined a communion service and "broke bread" with a part of the "degraded, divided, condemned system of Christianity."

Here is an interesting article about W. Nee and the Exclusives.

Trapped · 07-06-2018, 06:37 PM

Thanks. Do you know how far back the BPB went?

It's a small point why I'm asking. I was just thinking today about the seven lampstands and that if other Christian teachers, including Nee, said that one level of interpretation of the seven lampstands is that they represent the church at different points throughout history, then the LRC “the ground of oneness” cannot determine the legitimacy of a lampstand because this “ground” is supposedly a recovered truth in the very present time. If previous gatherings of believers before the Nee/Lee local churches did not meet on this recovered ground of oneness, how then could it be possible for the lampstands to represent the church at different points throughout history?

Ohio · 07-06-2018, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks. Do you know how far back the BPB went?

It's a small point why I'm asking. I was just thinking today about the seven lampstands and that if other Christian teachers, including Nee, said that one level of interpretation of the seven lampstands is that they represent the church at different points throughout history, then the LRC “the ground of oneness” cannot determine the legitimacy of a lampstand because this “ground” is supposedly a recovered truth in the very present time. If previous gatherings of believers before the Nee/Lee local churches did not meet on this recovered ground of oneness, how then could it be possible for the lampstands to represent the church at different points throughout history?

The British Plymouth Brethren under John Darby exerted their exclusive ways for the first time when they excommunicated Benjamin Newton of Plymouth in 1845. When George Muller and Henry Craik of Bethesda Chapel in nearby Bristol received into fellowship excommunicated members from Plymouth, they too were excommunicated. The resulting split resulted in the Exclusive and Open Brethren assemblies.

Both Darby of the Brethren, Nee of the Little Flock in China, and Lee of the LCM in Taiwan and the US considered the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3 to be historically fulfilled. Each considered their own followers to be the church in Philadelphia.

It's totally ironic and disgusting that both the Exclusives and the LCM today consider that their leader is the one oracle of God ... at the same time! Today Bruce Hales of Australia is their MOTA, Minister of the Age. So ridiculous. Both groups claim to be the sole lampstand in each city. Both groups claim their leader is the Minister of the Age.

Today the Wikipedia website for the Plymouth Brethren even considers Watchman Nee to be one of their own! Doesn't this sound like LSM:

Quote:

The Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) is a Protestant church, often known as Exclusive Brethren or Raven-Taylor-Hales Brethren. These Brethren hold an uncompromising view on the doctrine of separation and their practice has steadily evolved from other Plymouth Brethren groups and also from mainstream Christendom.

In a radical departure from traditional Plymouth Brethren rejection of a clerical hierarchy, the PBCC has evolved into a hierarchical organization dominated by one person known as the Elect Vessel, the "Lord's servant" or the Man of God. The current Elect Vessel is Bruce Hales of Australia. As the most definable (and likely largest) of the brethren groups, most media reporting of "Exclusive Brethren" relates to the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church although other branches do exist.

Notable PBCC members:

Watchman Nee[110] — Respected Leader in the "Little Flock" movement in China after being excommunicated by Exclusive brethren for "breaking bread with sectarians."

Drake · 07-08-2018, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Note Point 6, a-d for quotes which indicate what happens when one culture begins to dominate..

Aron,

Please provide a reference for 6 a-d.

Thx
Drake

UntoHim · 07-08-2018, 07:46 AM

a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues."
b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead."
c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right."
d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters."

aron, you can provide references if you want, but the references have been provided on this forum many times over the years. Now, just how much of this non-sense was influenced by Asian/Chinese culture is certainly an open question in my mind. I think some of the excesses during this time in the Local Church can be directly linked to the culture that Witness Lee brought to the movement in North America. (Of course Lee didn't have to bring such influence to the churches in Taiwan/Asia...that area of the world was already steeped in ancient Asian culture and tradition)
-

aron · 07-08-2018, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron,

Please provide a reference for 6 a-d.

Thx
Drake

I believe it's from the flyer "reconsideration of the vision". You can google it if you want.

Of course this stuff didn't get printed in the official organs. WL wasn't stupid - if he said, "I'm just a businessman trying to dupe gullible Americans with my spiritual mumbo-jumbo" what do you think that would do to his bottom line?

No, he left that to Paul Hon and Ray Graver. And a few others. They would be sure to set us all straight. What WL "really meant."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Rutledge

"In the church life at that time, Witness Lee was very much in the background among the churches. While we sought the Lord for our daily walk, family life, and function in the Body of Christ, Ray would constantly reference Witness Lee for all matters – personal, local, and extra-local. Ray often told others that they needed to be able to 'read between the lines' of what Brother Lee was saying and 'hear what he really means' and that 'he does not tell you directly what he wants'. Ray was always bringing Witness Lee to the foreground in the church, a trend that only increased with time."

I think Ray's quote is perfect - "he does not tell you directly what he wants". There was the need of 'interpretation' of the 'oracle'.

Point 6, a-d were exemplars of what was spoken around the New Way to push it forward. I myself heard BP tell us, "Don't pray - just go" (meaning migrate to Russia). That was the kind of talk we heard.

Ohio · 07-08-2018, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Point 6, a-d were exemplars of what was spoken around the New Way to push it forward. I myself heard BP tell us, "Don't pray - just go" (meaning migrate to Russia). That was the kind of talk we heard.

Ingalls' STTIL has more. These are from Appendix A:

Quotes from various sources:

“Since Christianity is in ruins, the Lord raised up the recovery; since the recovery is in ruins, the Lord raised up the FTTT.” (Andrew Yu, Oct.,1987)

“Whatever Witness Lee says, we make it happen!” (Paul Hon in training).

“We’re Witness Lee’s Company.” “I’ve got Witness Lee fever.” (Jake Jacobson)

“There is no need to pray about what to do; just follow the ministry.” (By the Trainers in Taipei)

“We don’t even need to think; we just do what we are told.” (Trainers)

“If the ministry says go east, you just go east. If the ministry says go west, you just go west.” (Andrew Yu, The Way To Go On, Voice of a High School Heart Newspaper, pg8) “Just give yourself to the ministry… that’s all.”

“No Opinions, no cold wind.” (Trainers, FTTT)

The first one is telling, "The Recovery is in ruins."

awareness · 07-08-2018, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Hate the break the news to you Aron. That is called “ Argumentum ad populum “

"EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. -2 Corinthians 13:1b

Drake · 07-08-2018, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I believe it's from the flyer "reconsideration of the vision". You can google it if you want.

Of course this stuff didn't get printed in the official organs.
.

No Aron. It’s your argument and your responsibility to provide sources you quote. Who said it and when?

Otherwise, it is just hearsay at best.

Thanks
Drake

UntoHim · 07-08-2018, 10:33 PM

No Drake, you wouldn't know aron's argument if it came up and bit you on the nose. You don't know his argument because you are obviously not listening to a word the man is saying. I'm not asking you to agree, but your constant harping on "sources!, sources!, sources! is making it look like you're trying to distract us from the issue at hand. All the quotes and quips aron is bringing forth are all common knowledge. They've been written about in black and white and on the Internet for years now.

...and speaking of responsibility, it's mine to keep this forum readable, informative and hopefully integrous. You're making my job really, really hard my man. I mean, your arguing about whether the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Why don't you just concede the fact that these things were said, and then you can spend your time actually addressing the issue(s) at hand. -

Ohio · 07-09-2018, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

No Aron. It’s your argument and your responsibility to provide sources you quote. Who said it and when?

Otherwise, it is just hearsay at best.

Thanks
Drake

I have been hearing LSMers dodge issues for decades claiming "hearsay" and their favorite line is "taking it out of context."

Drake · 07-09-2018, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No Drake, you wouldn't know aron's argument if it came up and bit you on the nose. You don't know his argument because you are obviously not listening to a word the man is saying. I'm not asking you to agree, but your constant harping on "sources!, sources!, sources! is making it look like you're trying to distract us from the issue at hand. All the quotes and quips aron is bringing forth are all common knowledge. They've been written about in black and white and on the Internet for years now.

...and speaking of responsibility, it's mine to keep this forum readable, informative and hopefully integrous. You're making my job really, really hard my man. I mean, your arguing about whether the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Why don't you just concede the fact that these things were said, and then you can spend your time actually addressing the issue(s) at hand. -

UntoHim,

I have no idea whether those things were said or not. No idea who “LSM” refers to. Aron uses “—-“ and that in normal dialogue refers to an actual statement. No idea of where it was said or the context in which it was said. Verbal or printed? No idea. So no, I will not concede that those things were said. No, sir. Aron made an assertion, he uses quotes to lend support to it, he says LSM made the statement, .....ok, so let’s see the actual quote.

Frankly, if these statements have been on the Internet for years, are so well known, were a tectonic shift in the Lords recovery, then it should be easy to provide the source of the quote. If not, it is just another example of unfounded allegations to which certain members of this forum are so inclined. So, it is certainly not Drake that presents a challenge to the integrity of this forum. Asking for and providing sources for direct quotes maintains any semblance of integrity this forum might have. For that, you know you can count on me.

As to Aron’s argument , his whole portfolio of cultural arguments for that matter is not hard to understand. I’ve already refuted them one by one. They are illogical, unsubstantiated, weak in persuasiveness, and reflect a heart of bias. He is entitled to his opinion but not his own facts.

Drake

Ohio · 07-09-2018, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I have no idea whether those things were said or not. No idea who “LSM” refers to. Aron uses “—-“ and that in normal dialogue refers to an actual statement. No idea of where it was said or the context in which it was said. Verbal or printed? No idea. So no, I will not concede that those things were said. No, sir. Aron made an assertion, he uses quotes to lend support to it, he says LSM made the statement, .....ok, so let’s see the actual quote.

Drake, I provided quotes from John Ingalls' book STTIL and that wasn't good enough for you?

Let me remind you that John Ingalls was a "Founding Father" of the Recovery in the USA since the very early 1960's. He led the LSM team which translated the N.T. Recovery Version. He compiled the Hymnal used in all the LC's.

awareness · 07-09-2018, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,

I have no idea whether those things were said or not. No idea who “LSM” refers to. Aron uses “—-“ and that in normal dialogue refers to an actual statement. No idea of where it was said or the context in which it was said. Verbal or printed? No idea. So no, I will not concede that those things were said. No, sir. Aron made an assertion, he uses quotes to lend support to it, he says LSM made the statement, .....ok, so let’s see the actual quote.

And bro Drake, we have no idea about you, or why you are here, or why you say what you say, or why you deny that these things happened or that they were said. Cuz maybe for good reasons ... maybe not ... we don't know ... you actually admit that you are hiding.

Truth be told, I know more about the JW guy that comes to my door. He too uses the same tactics to defend his cult, as you use to defend the LSM Witness Lee personality cult ; the same tactics used by anyone devoted to a group, to cover up anything that will reflect poorly on the reputation of the group they are devoted to ; 'cept we know nothing of your devotion to the Lee group, nor your association to it.

Unlike my JW friend, you don't put all your cards on the table. So maybe you could at least come out and tell us why you are so concerned about the integrity of the content on this forum.

Ohio · 07-09-2018, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And bro Drake, we have no idea about you, or why you are here, or why you say what you say, or why you deny that these things happened or that they were said. Cuz maybe for good reasons ... maybe not ... we don't know ... you actually admit that you are hiding.

Truth be told, I know more about the JW guy that comes to my door. He too uses the same tactics to defend his cult, as you use to defend the LSM Witness Lee personality cult ; the same tactics used by anyone devoted to a group, to cover up anything that will reflect poorly on the reputation of the group they are devoted to ; 'cept we know nothing of your devotion to the Lee group, nor your association to it.

Unlike my JW friend, you don't put all your cards on the table. So maybe you could at least come out and tell us why you are so concerned about the integrity of the content on this forum.

Drake has told us that he has been in the LC's for 40+ years and that he personally knows some of the Blendeds.

Unlike you and I, most other posters reserve the right to remain silent about the rest of their details. Besides UntoHim gets upset when anyone discusses others' anonymity or lack thereof.

Mum's the word, except around here where folks call their mother "Mum" like the Brits.

Drake · 07-09-2018, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And bro Drake, we have no idea about you, or why you are here, or why you say what you say, or why you deny that these things happened or that they were said. Cuz maybe for good reasons ... maybe not ... we don't know ... you actually admit that you are hiding........

....So maybe you could at least come out and tell us why you are so concerned about the integrity of the content on this forum.

Bro awareness,

Thanks for your questions.

Of course, you know me. I've provided my testimony, explained my experience both domestically and internationally. Talked about my over 4 decades in the Lord's recovery and my experiences before in Christianity and after taking this way... explained my beliefs and rendered my point of view on a variety of topics. I've talked about my experiences with various local churches and brothers, including leading ones some that stayed and some that left.. those that I knew, or met, conversed with.. etc. Hiding? You might mean that I don't let people know who I am or disclose enough information to figure that out. I explained that recently too.... nut cases.. in a forum very much like this one... Christians harassing me and my family.... stalking and threatening in an ugly attempt to shut me up. Ain't gonna happen twice.

If that doesn't satisfy your curiosity bro awareness then I got nuttin fer ya.

And I "deny that these things happened or that they were said"? In the quotations from aron (6a-d) even he doesn't know if they were really said. He just accepts that they were because in his typical fashion he is quoting something he read somewhere else. Therefore, why should I believe those quotations when the fellow cannot even cite who said them, where, and when? Is that how your belief system in constructed? No evidence, just relying on others to provide you with juicy material and then unable to defend your own argument? What kind of logic is that anyway... So and so said this and that means that... and if you don't believe me you can go search the web yourself? I'd say that is pitiful in an overly simplistic way, really. It's like watching mutton-busting... cute... maybe... but not a real rodeo.

Now, I am willing to answer your last question but before this becomes too long and stretched out.. please tell me how your questions of curiosity have anything to do with aron's inability to provide a source for "quotations" that he uses to propagandize his weak arguments?

Thanks
Drake

UntoHim · 07-09-2018, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I have no idea whether those things were said or not.

Well, my friend, if you're that decidedly ignorant of what is common knowledge , then you probably shouldn't be getting involved in this line of discussion. Save your bullets for shootin at something you can see. To my knowledge, nobody at LSM, DCP or any other Local Church has EVER denied that all these things were said and even promoted. There are some others even more explosive, obnoxious and even cultish things that have been confirmed to me personally, but are not widely enough known that I would allow them to be put out on the forum.

Quote:

So no, I will not concede that those things were said.

Ok...for my reaction to this, see above.

Quote:

Frankly, if these statements have been on the Internet for years, are so well known, were a tectonic shift in the Lords recovery, then it should be easy to provide the source of the quote.

Who said anything about "a tectonic shift in the Lord's recovery"? None of the things aron has quoted from are even a slight shift of what Witness Lee had taught for the past 30 years of his life. I personally sat at the man's feet for quite a number of those years and nothing of those infamous quotes surprised me from the day I heard them. When you provide us with the WRITTEN CONFIRMATION that Witness Lee denied that he ever said that he "was the only person ON EARTH SPEAKING AS GOD'S ORACLE SINCE 1945" then you will have room to spout off about these matters. Till then...

Quote:

They are illogical, unsubstantiated, weak in persuasiveness, and reflect a heart of bias. He is entitled to his opinion but not his own facts.

Wow, Drake, you just described about 80% of Witness Lee's ministry, and about 95% of the Blended Brothers "ministry". I knew you could do it!

Drake · 07-09-2018, 10:28 PM

-1

UntoHim,

No one has ever denied is not the same as they agreed.

Yet, if these quotes 6 a-d were common knowledge then it should be easy enough to identify who made the statement, when and where they were said. Rather than go duck shooting why not simply produce the source? Perhaps because no one knows for sure?

And if you think I am ignorant of common knowledge why not enlightenment instead of derision?

Certain posters have opinions that they attempt to pawn off as fact. To do that they "quote" stuff. In this case "LSM". Maybe the actual quote is right. Maybe it should not have been said. Maybe it was taken out of context. Perhaps it was meant one way and taken another. I don't dismiss any of those or other possibilities. I don't dismiss that odd or peculiar things have been stated by servants and coworkers either. However, in this case there is no evidence of those ACTUAL statements aron quoted are real. Therefore, any conclusions (e.g."what happens when one culture begins to dominate ") derived from them is a flimsy argument. ..... and without merit.

Drake

Trapped · 07-09-2018, 11:20 PM

I have no dog in this particular fight, but this is about the only thing I can find online mentioning the points 6.a-d that also has any slight additional details around it (starts about 8-9 paragraphs down):

The True Account
by David Wang

Ohio · 07-10-2018, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I have no dog in this particular fight, but this is about the only thing I can find online mentioning the points 6.a-d that also has any slight additional details around it (starts about 8-9 paragraphs down):

The True Account
by David Wang

Thanks for finding this, which silences Drake's rebuttals.

David Wang was a highly respected elder in the church in Rosemead back in the 1980's with another elder Don Hardy. They were both repulsed by what what happening in the FTT Taipei, what was being brought back to the US, and what was happening at the Anaheim headquarters of LSM.

Don Hardy, a senior staff member at LSM who at the time was reading the Recovery Version onto tape for sale to the saints, walked in on the "Office Manager" Philip Lee one day while one of the female staff was sitting on his lap partly undressed in the act of adultery. Not very holy.

If you know anything about Exclusive Brethren history, you will know that James Taylor Sr. was their "anointed brother" or MOTA, after Darby and his successor had passed away. It was observed by many that his boy, James Taylor Jr., who succeeded him as their "MOTA," had a character identical to Philip Lee, complete with abuse, alcohol, and women. (The same could be said of countless Popes throughout the centuries.) The Exclusive Brethren (Peebs) even have their own websites for ex-members, one is WikiPeebia. It's like a mirror image of LCD. The Peebs also have a rich history of lawsuits towards all of their critics.

awareness · 07-10-2018, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness,

Thanks for your questions.

Of course, you know me. I've provided my testimony, explained my experience both domestically and internationally. Talked about my over 4 decades in the Lord's recovery and my experiences before in Christianity and after taking this way... explained my beliefs and rendered my point of view on a variety of topics. I've talked about my experiences with various local churches and brothers, including leading ones some that stayed and some that left.. those that I knew, or met, conversed with.. etc. Hiding? You might mean that I don't let people know who I am or disclose enough information to figure that out. I explained that recently too.... nut cases.. in a forum very much like this one... Christians harassing me and my family.... stalking and threatening in an ugly attempt to shut me up. Ain't gonna happen twice.
If that doesn't satisfy your curiosity bro awareness then I got nuttin fer ya.

Thanks, Drake. Really, you strike me as a great guy.

I've got guns. No one harasses me. Not that people aren't hateful. Christians are the worst, some of them. You must live in a rough neck of the woods. Or you're a wussy. I'm usually the harasser.

But I know. There's all kinds in the LSM local churches. There's even gays in the LSM local churches ... in the closet, of course. I talk to one from time to time.

So it's no surprise that an oddball LCer like yourself would be a long term member. I say oddball because you don't fit the typical mold of a burning brother in the local church. Burning brothers spend all their time building up the church, not on exLCer computer forums.

Unless you come to say "the LSM local churches are sorry, and repent of all their past wrong doings," and, "Please come back. We're better now."

But that can't be. You can't be doing that. Cuz you spend all your time defending the LSM local churches, and Witness Lee.

It's like to you, the group you've been loyal to for a long time has to be flawless, and it's leader has to be flawless too.

Apparently, you don't read your Bible. There's tons of flawed characters in the Bible.

Personally I think you'd do better if you'd just admit that the group you're devoting your life to is flawed ... and the dead leader of it was flawed.

And try accepting testimonies of those that were there as true. Otherwise you're just out here calling all of us liars.

Trapped · 07-10-2018, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great story!

You would be amazed to know how many saints have done the same thing!

One such book was Joyce Meyer's book, Battlefield of the Mind.

I watched her on YouTube recently as it was one of the videos that showed up from my search for some help on how to forgive people who've stabbed you in the gut, know they did it, but who also don't care that they knifed you! It was helpful to hear relatable speaking.

Her book you suggested has like 86% 5-star reviews on Amazon, wow! I'll have to check it out, thanks for the tip.

Trapped · 10-03-2018, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Firstly, Lee's teaching that all the differences were "of a negative nature" is frankly wrong. The Son of Man commended each church positively and individually, knowing their positives quite well. Why would W. Lee downplay this fact? Every Pastor/Shepherd in the world knows the positive characteristics of his church, just ask him. W. Lee, however, could not acknowledge that each church had its own good works, pleasing to God. This corresponded with Lee's unending fellowship that only LSM could do anything good. "So, send your best people to the training."

Secondly, why would Lee continually stress that each LC must "not have any individual distinctiveness?" Since God has placed gifts in the body as it pleases Him, and each member has been gifted by the Lord uniquely, it only stand to reason that each church would have different strengths (and weaknesses too.) Why is this so threatening to W. Lee that he would create a teaching about member churches that is completely different from the rest of the body of Christ? What was his motive here? What were the results, or the fruit, of such teaching? How did W. Lee and LSM act to remove "any individual distinctiveness" between churches. These are fair questions to ask. We also have the advantage of decades of history to examine.

One notable action which Lee and LSM has taken is to remove and neutralize the gifted members of the body from ministering according to the anointing Spirit. The list of gifted and fruitful ministers around the globe, who once labored to establish churches, and have been expelled by Lee/LSM is just incredible. This forum is filled with their accounts. They were used by Lee, then were discarded. None of them ever parted peacefully. They were always nasty "divorces." Why would Lee/LSM do this? What was there motive? Just to remove "any individual distinctiveness" from the churches?

On the "no individual distinctiveness" thing that Lee's footnotes say.....just wanted to mention that I came across a paragraph in Lee's "A Timely Word" that states (underlining mine):

"It is altogether wise and profitable that we do not expect all the churches to be the same. This is impossible. Even twelve brothers within a local church cannot be the same in everything. If a local church has a burden to visit people in their homes for the preaching of the gospel, they should carry out this commission. They do not need to say that others do not preach the gospel in this way. If others do not feel to preach the gospel by visiting people in their homes, that is not your business. Do not talk about who is for this or who is for that. We should not talk in this way. We should not label ourselves or label others. If we want to practice a certain thing, we can do it. If others do not want to practice it, they have the liberty not to practice it. We should not question who is for a certain thing and who is not for a certain thing. This does not help you or anyone else. We all must endeavor to keep the oneness of the Spirit so that the Body of Christ can build up itself in love (Eph. 4:3, 16)."

So even Lee's own statements contradict his own statements!

Ohio · 10-04-2018, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

On the "no individual distinctiveness" thing that Lee's footnotes say.....just wanted to mention that I came across a paragraph in Lee's "A Timely Word" that states (underlining mine):

"It is altogether wise and profitable that we do not expect all the churches to be the same. This is impossible. Even twelve brothers within a local church cannot be the same in everything. If a local church has a burden to visit people in their homes for the preaching of the gospel, they should carry out this commission. They do not need to say that others do not preach the gospel in this way. If others do not feel to preach the gospel by visiting people in their homes, that is not your business. Do not talk about who is for this or who is for that. We should not talk in this way. We should not label ourselves or label others. If we want to practice a certain thing, we can do it. If others do not want to practice it, they have the liberty not to practice it. We should not question who is for a certain thing and who is not for a certain thing. This does not help you or anyone else. We all must endeavor to keep the oneness of the Spirit so that the Body of Christ can build up itself in love (Eph. 4:3, 16)."

So even Lee's own statements contradict his own statements!

Yes, exactly.

Years ago when sorting this all out, I concluded there was an "early-Lee" and a "Later-Lee." They regularly argued with each other.

aron · 02-13-2019, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The LCs are trying to grapple with a true demographic shift over the past 35 years, as their constituents keep growing less reflective of the "local" populations they've supposedly been representing.

Here's an excerpt from the recent (Feb 2019) newsletter of the Church in Sydney (Australia) affiliated with Titus Chu:

Quote:

Pray for the new believers (5 brothers: Yuan-Pei Zhao, Chao Ma, Lyon Yang, Jack Zhou and Joe Zhou as well as 16 sisters: Lu Gan, Lan-Xiu Zhang, Li-Fang Ge, Kelie Wei, Li-Yuan Xu, Jean Hu, MinFang Wu, XiuQing Chen, Heidi Li, Tracy Lin, Sophie, AnJie Lin, Han Huang, Ariana Chang, Feng-Lian Li and Miao-Lian Li.) May the Lord establish them in the church life and bless their growth in life.

And to show that this demographic constituency isn't a fluke, here's from their April 2018 bulletin:

Quote:

Pray for the new believers (7 brothers: Vincent Tai, YuMing Liang, Zylen Liang, Stephen, William, Yuan Liu and Yuan-Pei Zhao as well as 12 sisters: Vanessa Lu, Li Zhou, Lili Chen, Jenny Zhu, Yun-Yue Lin, Li-Qin Wu, Yun Zhu, Joies, Ariel Chen, Lu Gan, Lan-Xiu Zhang and Li-Fang Ge.) May the Lord establish them in the church life and bless their growth in life.

I don't see anything but Chinese names. Imagine if the "Church in Shenzhen" or the "Church in Guanzhou" had nothing but German names in their listed new members - might this possibly strike the casual reader as a bit odd? Especially since their raison-d'etre is localism? Or put differently, isn't this exactly what WN utterly rejected 85 or 90 years ago: non-local, non-representative, i.e. foreign, or alien-imposed Christian assemblies? Then what's happened with localism, here?

http://christiansinsydney.org/?p=2647

For those who can't pick up my drift (there are usually some) - I'm not pushing xenophobia, racism or reactionary pandering. I'm asking what's happened to the "local revival" concept of authentically native, really locally-based churches since its promotion in China nearly a century ago? It's completely gone, apparently. Vanished. Perhaps WL dropped it in the Pacific Ocean along with his other ''fallen religious concepts''. And if so, then what (if anything) got recovered in the Lord's recovery?

Weighingin · 02-13-2019, 09:43 PM

Is there a local church there affiliated with LSM or has the "ground" been lost?

aron · 02-14-2019, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weighingin

Is there a local church there affiliated with LSM or has the "ground" been lost?

I daresay there are also some LSM-affiliated believers in Sydney. But the very point of a local church has vanished, its ground. Its existence and identity are now tied to foreign affiliation, and foreign control. Isn't this what Watchman Nee decried 90 years ago? How can anyone be so blind as to not see this?

They go to the uni and tell students, "Oh, we're just Christians who love the Lord Jesus", and in the next breath they want to know who you're with - Cleveland Ohio or Anaheim California? What complete nonsense. The only ones who will swallow this are a few homesick Chinese. They may be foreign-controlled, but at least it's familiar culture.

But local ground? Please. Why continue the pretense? Isn't our confession and faith about "reality, reality, reality"?

Ohio · 02-14-2019, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I daresay there are also some LSM-affiliated believers in Sydney. But the very point of a local church has vanished, its ground. Its existence and identity are now tied to foreign affiliation, and foreign control. Isn't this what Watchman Nee decried 90 years ago? How can anyone be so blind as to not see this?

They go to the uni and tell students, "Oh, we're just Christians who love the Lord Jesus", and in the next breath they want to know who you're with - Cleveland Ohio or Anaheim California? What complete nonsense. The only ones who will swallow this are a few homesick Chinese. They may be foreign-controlled, but at least it's familiar culture.

But local ground? Please. Why continue the pretense? Isn't our confession and faith about "reality, reality, reality"?

I checked out that link looking for the usual LSM boilerplate, and eventually discovered they were secessionists holding a conference with Titus Chu.

Of course, this was the real reason LSM had to purge TC from their "little body." He has followers all over (Austral) Asia. After Lee died, saints on the streets were muttering "Nee, Lee, Chu."

Weighingin · 02-14-2019, 01:39 PM

I just was curious about their affiliation. There's more I could comment on about the ground, but that should be in another thread.

Regarding this thread, I have seen comments that the LCs are increasingly Asian, in the USA and even outside. This is due to the LC practices appealing to their culture.
I have observed both by my presence and by others' postings, especially of campus clubs on FB, that there are places that are predominantly Asian. This seems to be true in CA especially, with the YP and campus clubs. I have seen this too with other campus clubs in some cities or towns outside CA, those that have a school with high attendance.
But while there is a good number of foreign Chinese or Asian students, a
substantial number are ABCs, most of which are "church kids."

aron · 02-14-2019, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I just was curious about their affiliation. There's more I could comment on about the ground, but that should be in another thread.

Regarding this thread, I have seen comments that the LCs are increasingly Asian, in the USA and even outside. This is due to the LC practices appealing to their culture. I've observed both by my presence and by others' postings, especially of campus clubs on FB, that there are places that are predominantly Asian. This seems to be true in CA especially, with the YP and campus clubs. I have seen this too with other campus clubs in some cities or towns outside CA, those that have a school with high attendance. But while there is a good number of foreign Chinese or Asian students, a substantial number are ABCs, most of which are "church kids."

I don't know how many of the new Sydney [Titus Chu] Church Christians I listed are recent immigrants from China, and how many are Australian-born Chinese. But I think that Witness Lee's statement that China represented "virgin soil" for God's move and that by extension the Christian practice that he brought to the USA, thence to Europe, Africa and Australia was somehow "purified" or "recovered" or "restored" was just self-serving hogwash. He brought over fallen Chinese cultural practice, and that's why the list of new believers in the [TC-variant] Church in Sydney are all Chinese. They're okay with the idea of foreign domination, as long as it's THEIR foreign domination.

But which 'foreign devil' to submit to - Anaheim or Cleveland?

The Church in Sydney, whether its TC/Blendeds/DYL variant, is no more a local church than the Parish of the Lady of Our Way in North Sydney or St. Peter's Presbyterian Church. And if you look at the demographic that it appeals to, and fronts, it's perhaps less a reflection of the local populace than they are. So why call it a local church? (Besides that this is its only reason to exist, of course)

Ohio · 08-07-2019, 07:55 AM

This thread has offered numerous helpful insights into LC culture and thinking.

The following was posted on the Casteel' FB site which caught my attention:

Quote:

Part of the Chinese culture that is underlying the teachings of WL is the Communist concept of “constant revolution. “

That is why there are so many twists and turns. To keep the masses off balance and easier to control. So, Jo’s letter gives them an opportunity to tighten the control and further brainwash.

Following the leadership of both Lee in Anaheim and Chu in Cleveland was a never-ending series of "flows" or abrupt changes in direction, always mandated by headquarters. These were always unsettling to the church, and seemed to produce unending "wheel-spinning" with little progress.

It is unsettling, to say the least, to learn that this too was a communist practice.

Sons to Glory! · 08-07-2019, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This thread has offered numerous helpful insights into LC culture and thinking.

The following was posted on the Casteel' FB site which caught my attention:
Following the leadership of both Lee in Anaheim and Chu in Cleveland was a never-ending series of "flows" or abrupt changes in direction, always mandated by headquarters. These were always unsettling to the church, and seemed to produce unending "wheel-spinning" with little progress.

It is unsettling, to say the least, to learn that this too was a communist practice.

There is a management approach of sorts that is like that too. For instance, a new manager comes in and maybe doesn't know exactly what to do, but wants or is expected to do something big. So the manager just starts changing all kinds of things almost randomly. Nobody can figure out exactly what is going on in all the confusion so they have to look to the leader, because they are apparently the only one that knows what to do. Usually before anybody can figure out it was just a bunch of senseless "make work," the manager moves on or gets promoted, because they (again, apparently) got so much done! Of course, what really gets left in their wake is essentially chaos that the next leader has to deal with . . .

This, unfortunately, occurs far too often, especially among managers who are bent on making a name for themselves in their climb to the top.

Ohio · 08-07-2019, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

There is a management approach of sorts that is like that too. For instance, a new manager comes in and maybe doesn't know exactly what to do, but wants or is expected to do something big. So the manager just starts changing all kinds of things almost randomly. Nobody can figure out exactly what is going on in all the confusion so they have to look to the leader, because they are apparently the only one that knows what to do. Usually before anybody can figure out it was just a bunch of senseless "make work," the manager moves on or gets promoted, because they (again, apparently) got so much done! Of course, what really gets left in their wake is essentially chaos that the next leader has to deal with . . .

Reminds me of 1st grade at Catholic school. Those of us who were more studious and arrived early were given "bell work" to keep us busy until the bell rang.

Terry · 08-07-2019, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This thread has offered numerous helpful insights into LC culture and thinking.

The following was posted on the Casteel' FB site which caught my attention:
Following the leadership of both Lee in Anaheim and Chu in Cleveland was a never-ending series of "flows" or abrupt changes in direction, always mandated by headquarters. These were always unsettling to the church, and seemed to produce unending "wheel-spinning" with little progress.

It is unsettling, to say the least, to learn that this too was a communist practice.

I always did see a lot of communist tendencies in the local churches even at a young age. Specifically the de-emphasis of the individual.
Back to the FB posts of Jo Casteel, I was thinking about this thread while listening to "Special Fellowship Meeting With Former Trainees - A Graphical Analysis".

07-02-2018, 06:51 AM	#501
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 11,888	Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church Today every LC uses only Lee's books for their teaching and the content of their gatherings. Not just any old Lee books, but they must use the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And not just any old HWFMR off their shelves, but it must be the one from the latest "Feast." And for those who are not in the know, this "Feast" is the latest semi-annual training held at LSM's headquarters in Anaheim, CA. Don't think every LC arrived at this decision freely and amicably. This strict practice took decades to reach. Literally hundreds of LC elders resisted their bully tactics over the years, citing their God-given responsibilities to shepherd their own church. But years of coercion, manipulation, threatening, quarantines, evictions, and lawsuits were used to reach such a goal. This takeover work by Lee/LSM began in 1974, about the time I first contacted the LC, and ended with the GLA quarantines, when I left the LC. In the beginning the LC's were Christ-centered gatherings in each locality, or "local" church. At least it was that way for all of us young brothers and sisters. Slowly we transitioned to "ministry-centered" franchises for the building up of "the body." Why? Because Christ-centered gatherings in each locality created too much "independence" for each member, each eldership, and each LC. So-called "independence" or "autonomy" was great for the children of God, since congregations could more readily focus on shepherding their own members and communities, but bad for business, LSM's that is. And LSM is all about control. Lee made that clear. He once said that he would rather have ten who were absolutely one with him, than all the LC's. This explains why LSM seems unfazed with the loss of thousands of former members in the Midwest and Brazil. Their message has been simple: If you don't like things our way, just leave, but don't take your meeting hall, it's ours. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

07-02-2018, 02:15 PM	#513
Drake Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 2,063	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind -1 aron>"Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books." .....and there it is again.. right on schedule. The use of loaded terms. Chinese imagery too. A double whammy. Aron, your constant use of loaded terms exposes the weakness and fallacy of your argument. Argument by Emotive Language (also known as: loaded words, loaded language, euphemisms) Description: Substituting facts and evidence with words that stir up emotion, with the attempt to manipulate others into accepting the truth of the argument. Drake

07-02-2018, 04:08 PM	#515
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 4,936	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind -2 Drake ok. Sorry, but I'm being honest and telling you what I see. I see the words, "not having any individual distinctiveness" and that's what I see. I don't see the Bible. Paul told us, God gives gifts that differ. Some have a tongue, some an interpretation. Some are prophets some are apostles. I see distinctions, individual distinctiveness. Yet the footnote tells me no. I see, star differs from star in glory but the footnote says no. You feign outrage but where is the competing vision? It took poster named "Trapped" to rescue you from part one, the "exactly identical" part in "shape". I don't ever remember hearing that a church had a shape. What was I supposed to see? But hooray for "Trapped" who explained it nicely. Then I give you every opportunity to explain part two and you become indignant. But no answers. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

07-02-2018, 04:25 PM	#517
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 4,936	A poll A poll. How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"? I did. Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"? I was. We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour. Now, read the footnote in Revelation 1:20 and tell me what you see. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

07-06-2018, 06:06 PM	#526
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 389	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind Is the ground of oneness concept unique to the LRC? Does the LRC consider that a "recovered" concept/practice? Or have there been other groups after the NT time but prior to Nee/Lee who saw/practiced the same thing?

07-06-2018, 06:23 PM	#527
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 11,888	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind They stole the "ground" from the exclusive British Plymouth Brethren, who also have a checkered history of lawsuits, divisions, and excommunications. Nee was a part of the Exclusive Brethren until he committed a "mortal sin." He joined a communion service and "broke bread" with a part of the "degraded, divided, condemned system of Christianity." Here is an interesting article about W. Nee and the Exclusives. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

07-06-2018, 06:37 PM	#528
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 389	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind Thanks. Do you know how far back the BPB went? It's a small point why I'm asking. I was just thinking today about the seven lampstands and that if other Christian teachers, including Nee, said that one level of interpretation of the seven lampstands is that they represent the church at different points throughout history, then the LRC “the ground of oneness” cannot determine the legitimacy of a lampstand because this “ground” is supposedly a recovered truth in the very present time. If previous gatherings of believers before the Nee/Lee local churches did not meet on this recovered ground of oneness, how then could it be possible for the lampstands to represent the church at different points throughout history?

07-08-2018, 07:46 AM	#531
UntoHim Grateful Servant Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,781	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues." b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead." c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right." d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters." aron, you can provide references if you want, but the references have been provided on this forum many times over the years. Now, just how much of this non-sense was influenced by Asian/Chinese culture is certainly an open question in my mind. I think some of the excesses during this time in the Local Church can be directly linked to the culture that Witness Lee brought to the movement in North America. (Of course Lee didn't have to bring such influence to the churches in Taiwan/Asia...that area of the world was already steeped in ancient Asian culture and tradition) - __________________ Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)

07-08-2018, 10:33 PM	#536
UntoHim Grateful Servant Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,781	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind No Drake, you wouldn't know aron's argument if it came up and bit you on the nose. You don't know his argument because you are obviously not listening to a word the man is saying. I'm not asking you to agree, but your constant harping on "sources!, sources!, sources! is making it look like you're trying to distract us from the issue at hand. All the quotes and quips aron is bringing forth are all common knowledge. They've been written about in black and white and on the Internet for years now. ...and speaking of responsibility, it's mine to keep this forum readable, informative and hopefully integrous. You're making my job really, really hard my man. I mean, your arguing about whether the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Why don't you just concede the fact that these things were said, and then you can spend your time actually addressing the issue(s) at hand. - __________________ Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)

07-09-2018, 10:28 PM	#544
Drake Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 2,063	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind -1 UntoHim, No one has ever denied is not the same as they agreed. Yet, if these quotes 6 a-d were common knowledge then it should be easy enough to identify who made the statement, when and where they were said. Rather than go duck shooting why not simply produce the source? Perhaps because no one knows for sure? And if you think I am ignorant of common knowledge why not enlightenment instead of derision? Certain posters have opinions that they attempt to pawn off as fact. To do that they "quote" stuff. In this case "LSM". Maybe the actual quote is right. Maybe it should not have been said. Maybe it was taken out of context. Perhaps it was meant one way and taken another. I don't dismiss any of those or other possibilities. I don't dismiss that odd or peculiar things have been stated by servants and coworkers either. However, in this case there is no evidence of those ACTUAL statements aron quoted are real. Therefore, any conclusions (e.g."what happens when one culture begins to dominate ") derived from them is a flimsy argument. ..... and without merit. Drake

07-09-2018, 11:20 PM	#545
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 389	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind I have no dog in this particular fight, but this is about the only thing I can find online mentioning the points 6.a-d that also has any slight additional details around it (starts about 8-9 paragraphs down): The True Account by David Wang

02-13-2019, 09:43 PM	#552
Weighingin Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 78	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind Is there a local church there affiliated with LSM or has the "ground" been lost?

02-14-2019, 01:39 PM	#555
Weighingin Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 78	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind I just was curious about their affiliation. There's more I could comment on about the ground, but that should be in another thread. Regarding this thread, I have seen comments that the LCs are increasingly Asian, in the USA and even outside. This is due to the LC practices appealing to their culture. I have observed both by my presence and by others' postings, especially of campus clubs on FB, that there are places that are predominantly Asian. This seems to be true in CA especially, with the YP and campus clubs. I have seen this too with other campus clubs in some cities or towns outside CA, those that have a school with high attendance. But while there is a good number of foreign Chinese or Asian students, a substantial number are ABCs, most of which are "church kids." Last edited by Weighingin; 02-14-2019 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Correcting grammar and misspellings.

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