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Old 07-03-2019, 12:17 PM   #1
Trapped
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Default Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches Living Stream Ministry, 1989


I just.......I mean......am I the only one who reads this and thinks....."ffffffwwwwhhhaaatttt??"

KNOWING GOD OR KNOWING CHRIST IS NOT ADEQUATE??? You mean Lee's local churches are a higher sphere than God?!?!

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Old 07-03-2019, 12:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

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I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
Trapped, that fellowship is outdated.

The local churches soon became "merely a procedure."

Then to know the local churches was also not adequate.

One must know the body of Christ!

Later, that too became inadequate and one must now know the unique new testament ministry.

Then you are up-to-date!

Get the picture?
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Old 07-03-2019, 12:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Witness Lee
"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate."

The Lord Jesus Christ
And this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

I don't know about y'all, but I think I'm going to go with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and maybe just ignore Witness Lee.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

"Today is the day of the local churches"

Similar to Pol Pot saying, "It is the year zero." If you rise from the dead and walk on water, you can say stuff like that.

Otherwise, you have just exposed yourself. A tin-horn satrap.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Yeah,I also felt stumbled when I saw this quote. I demand explanation for this quote. If not, can you remove it? We need to remove leavened teaching from His unleavened Body.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

I read a quote from when LSM went into PRC in '79. "The age of the Word is over - it is now the age of the Spirit." And how much nuttiness followed that?
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Witness Lee
"Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local."

This part might be even more disturbing and damaging then the first about knowing God not being adequate. We all know that when Witness Lee said "the churches which are local" he really and truly meant THE CHURCHES WHICH ARE LOCAL THAT ARE UNDER HIS MINISTRY AND FULL CONTROL. And now it has become very clear that this was the case going back to the early days in Taiwan and SE Asia. Our dear Brother Lee was hiring and firing elders and co-workers and intervening in the government and function of local churches at his personal whim going all the way back to at least the 1950s.

The churches under Witness Lee's ministry have never really been local at all. While Lee was alive, they were not "answering each to the Lord". No sir. If they were to be considered a "local church in the Lord's Recovery" they answered only and always to the person and work of Witness Lee. Today, these "ministry churches" still answer to the person and work of Lee, but it is through the interpretive lenses of the Blended Brothers in Anaheim. Same company - different boss.
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:02 AM   #9
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Today's Witness Wednesday is doing me in too:

Do not simply know God according to what He does, but know Him according to what He is. Whether or not God does something for us means nothing.

Again I say....whaaaaaaattt??

Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:16 AM   #10
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

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Today's Witness Wednesday is doing me in too:

Do not simply know God according to what He does, but know Him according to what He is. Whether or not God does something for us means nothing.

Again I say....whaaaaaaattt??

Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
I had a problem with that quote, too. How can something God does mean nothing?
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:21 AM   #11
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Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
This is why his Blended minions also think in such absolutes. They used to attack the GLA for playing electric guitars simply because W.Lee deemed the piano and the acoustic guitar alone to be "holy" for meetings.

John Darby demanded all of his assemblies to sing a cappella, while condemning the use of a piano as a "wooden brother."

Absolutism produces exclusivism, which produces Laodicea, the land without love.
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Old 07-17-2019, 10:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Lee was actually a terrible communicator.

Look at all the debate between LSM and GLA about "what he really meant." Endless parsing.

You shouldn't have to decipher the teachings of a contemporary minister, let alone someone who claims to be MOTA. There are plenty of clear Christians teachers. Why even bother with him?
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:12 PM   #13
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

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Lee was actually a terrible communicator.

Look at all the debate between LSM and GLA about "what he really meant." Endless parsing.

You shouldn't have to decipher the teachings of a contemporary minister, let alone someone who claims to be MOTA. There are plenty of clear Christians teachers. Why even bother with him?

No kidding!!
I hated listening to his tapes and listening to him at meetings, conferences, trainings.

However at the time I appreciated the life studies because 1) they were easy to read/understand, 2) we at least were studying the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. His focus and thread were 'Christ and the church'... translation: the LC, Lord's recovery, LSM....

Thank GOD I from the get go was so grateful I truly got saved from hell, from the life I was living, experienced the Power of the Cleansing Blood, and the washing of the Word of God in my being. I appreciated the fellowship of my local church community (San Diego and the blessed elders I was under).


Above all, I never forgot and still haven't that JESUS CHRIST through His Life giving Spirit saved me and delivered me. My focus was/is HIM..

He makes it so much easier for me/us to discern the true teachers/preachers He raises up who point us to HIS WORD, To Christ.

But Lee and his minions IMHO did very little to point the saints to Christ... to trust HIM, to follow HIM, to get to intimately know HIM.

Lee like many church pastors did / do not want to lose their 'flock'. So they control them by twisting God's Word. Lee was a master of manipulation!
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:08 PM   #14
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What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
And all believers throughout history too.
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:32 AM   #15
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What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
Let's not forget all the millions of brothers and sisters who came before us, many who suffered the loss of health, life, reputation, family, and possessions. They are in the universal church, and as it says in Hebrews, somehow they are a great cloud of witnesses.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:31 AM   #16
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Ron Kangas quote:
"I'm so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I'm the co-worker. I'm the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is my wife. I will never crown her, I will never exalt her, that's to damage her."

"Ugh!" is all I can say.

I hope she gave him an earful about that. How crass can you get?

Suffice to say Kangas didn't write the Song of Songs.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Ron Kangas quote:
"I'm so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I'm the co-worker. I'm the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is my wife. I will never crown her, I will never exalt her, that's to damage her."

Ron Kangas made only one crown.
One crown, he puts on his own head.
He is someone. He exalts himself the 'delegated authority'.

She is no one. He said.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:18 AM   #18
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Ron, Ron, Ron.

I have never heard any sister say she wants to be crowned or be exalted in any way. (I wish I could say the same thing about you Blended Brothers) I do believe that sisters would like to not be treated as a second class citizen, relegated to only cooking, cleaning and babysitting. They also don't want to be considered as "nothing" and "no one". I never heard Witness Lee say such a thing. I have never heard or read where Watchman Nee uttered such nonsense. And we all know that you certainly did not get this notion from the Bible.

Ron, I don't think you would have made such a crude, sexist and absurd statement when your first wife Susan was alive. She would have had your head and you know it. So now that you have a "submissive" Chinese/Asian wife (probably a life-long Local Churcher) you think you can spew out this garbage in public? Shame on you. You are being rebuked by the Lord and his Word. You are also being rebuked by the rest of the Body that is not under your thumb.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:35 PM   #19
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Ron, Ron, Ron.

I have never heard any sister say she wants to be crowned or be exalted in any way. (I wish I could say the same thing about you Blended Brothers) I do believe that sisters would like to not be treated as a second class citizen, relegated to only cooking, cleaning and babysitting. They also don't want to be considered as "nothing" and "no one". I never heard Witness Lee say such a thing. I have never heard or read where Watchman Nee uttered such nonsense. And we all know that you certainly did not get this notion from the Bible.

-
Nee did do the extreme opposite and rather than Christ, he gave women spiritual authority over him during his formative years. Because of those influences, he mingled false spirituality into Christian doctrine and it became what it is today, the Lord's Recovery.

BTW, who exactly is this Kangas character? Is he a Blended brother?

It's an appalling thing to say of your wife "she is nothing". You may not have to exalt her but that doesn't mean you need to put her under your feet either. It seems Mr. Kangas confuses women for the serpent and is crushing the wrong creature.

With that said, feminism isn't the solution to misogyny yet it seems that those are the only two options society presents us.

So who's right in their view of women? Kangas or Nee?

This seems to be the order of the day in politics. Create a false dilemma and make people choose. Liberal or conservative, LSM or GLA, misogyny or feminism ect.

By allowing only two options, whether intentional or not, choosing or focusing your energy on one only helps give validity to the other.
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:05 PM   #20
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BTW, who exactly is this Kangas character? Is he a Blended brother?
Ron Kangas:

The most Blended af the Blendeds

Princeton Theological School Graduate

Long time chief editor for Lee's books after a "storm" knocked out other editors like John Ingalls.

Presently Chief Theologian of The Recovery.

One of their primary conference speakers.
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:37 PM   #21
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So who's right in their view of women? Kangas or Nee?
Are they the only choice we have?
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Old 07-22-2019, 01:38 PM   #22
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Ron Kangas:

The most Blended af the Blendeds

Princeton Theological School Graduate

Long time chief editor for Lee's books after a "storm" knocked out other editors like John Ingalls.

Presently Chief Theologian of The Recovery.

One of their primary conference speakers.
Excruciating bore.
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Old 07-22-2019, 04:19 PM   #23
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Excruciating bore.
After Lee passed, Ron Kangas emerged on the scene, and visited a number of places to minister.

TC approached him, and attempted to complement him on his gift of teaching.

Ron shooed him away, like one would brush off a mosquito. Or a leper.
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Old 07-22-2019, 04:27 PM   #24
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After Lee passed, Ron Kangas emerged on the scene, and visited a number of places to minister.

TC approached him, and attempted to complement him on his gift of teaching.

Ron shooed him away, like one would brush off a mosquito. Or a leper.

Ohio, why do you think Ron did that? And why do you think Titus felt it necessary to compliment Kangas? I think your statement implies something but you're not being clear on what that is.

If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother then yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.

Do you know what Chu's and Kangas's relationship was like prior to Lee's passing?
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Old 07-22-2019, 05:08 PM   #25
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Are they the only choice we have?
Igzy, it was a rhetorical question... The third option is; neither of them were right.
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:43 PM   #26
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If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother than yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.
Or Chu was just being clueless (because Kangas has no teaching gift) and Kangas was just being an ass (because that comes naturally for him).

Anything more complicated than that, including your theory, is even worse.

(Whatever happened to just receiving a compliment graciously?)
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:24 PM   #27
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Ohio, why do you think Ron did that? And why do you think Titus felt it necessary to compliment Kangas? I think your statement implies something but you're not being clear on what that is.

If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother then yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.

Do you know what Chu's and Kangas's relationship was like prior to Lee's passing?
Because Ron doesn't know how to say "Thanks."
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:51 PM   #28
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Because Ron doesn't know how to say "Thanks."
Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:52 AM   #29
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Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
It's amazing how much pride can hide behind high peak doctrines.
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:43 AM   #30
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Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
Harold, then remember that warm hearted brother you once knew in prayer.
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:15 PM   #31
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Seems the home page quotes have been of the outlandish variety lately.

This week, Watchman Nee:
"Whenever man touches God's delegated authority he touches God within that person; sinning against delegated authority is sinning against God."

Yawn. Well, all true "sins" are against God, so this statement is really saying nothing of any substance. It's simply a threat.

It's more LR intimidation. More threats. More fear. More balderdash.

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Old 07-24-2019, 03:18 PM   #32
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Seems the home page quotes have been of the outlandish variety lately.

This week, Watchman Nee:
"Whenever man touches God's delegated authority he touches God within that person; sinning against delegated authority is sinning against God."

Yawn. Well, all true "sins" are against God, so this statement is really saying nothing of any substance. It's simply a threat.

It's more LR intimidation. Mote threats. More fear. More balderdash.
Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:52 PM   #33
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Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
LSM. Could be a BB, could be the publication work, could be an LSM sanctioned locality. Could be DCP, an arm of LSM. Could be BFA, or LME, or KGB or GRU. (Wait what?) If you are perceived as attacking anything associated with LSM, you are opposing God's delegated authority.
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Old 07-24-2019, 04:42 PM   #34
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Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
Ask an LSM member, it's the Blendeds

Ask a GLA member, it's Titus Chu

Ask someone else, it's Luther, or Calvin, or Pope Francis, or Joseph Smith, ect...

Then ask the independent free loving mystic they'll say it's up to them and their inner guidance or feelings.

And then there's the truth.

Scripture does say that Satan is the authorized god of this age. So when Local Church leaders caution in coming against their authority, their warning is valid. If you're not covered by Christ, you will get burned.

With that said if you truly are in Christ Jesus, then he's your master.
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:46 PM   #35
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Ask an LSM member, it's the Blendeds

Ask a GLA member, it's Titus Chu

Ask someone else, it's Luther, or Calvin, or Pope Francis, or Joseph Smith, ect...

Then ask the independent free loving mystic they'll say it's up to them and their inner guidance or feelings.

And then there's the truth.

Scripture does say that Satan is the authorized god of this age. So when Local Church leaders caution in coming against their authority, their warning is valid. If you're not covered by Christ, you will get burned.

With that said if you truly are in Christ Jesus, then he's your master.
Good point about all the delegated authorities. Guess it's a need of the flesh to have them "in the flesh."
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Old 07-24-2019, 08:18 PM   #36
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Good point about all the delegated authorities. Guess it's a need of the flesh to have them "in the flesh."
Then thank God Christ came in the flesh so we were able to relate.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

This latest quote is so disingenuous --
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In the Lord's recovery there is no such practice of a "centralization of the churches" and a "centralization of the work." We do emphasize that all the churches should be one in the Body of Christ, not by the way of forming a federation but in the way of adequate fellowship in the Spirit in the organic union of the divine life.
My, My, how does one even begin to unpack this?

For example, I departed just prior to the actual GLA quarantines. Titus Chu was expelled for not submitting to the Blendeds in Anaheim. They basically told us that.

That, my friends, is the very DEFINITION of "Centralization of the Work."

The level of blindness and deception at LSM is truly incredible.
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
In the Lord's recovery there is no such practice of a "centralization of the churches" and a "centralization of the work." We do emphasize that all the churches should be one in the Body of Christ, not by the way of forming a federation but in the way of adequate fellowship in the Spirit in the organic union of the
divine life.



Yes, just label your "federation" an "organic union" and you can justify anything!

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Old 08-01-2019, 12:56 PM   #39
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Harold, then remember that warm hearted brother you once knew in prayer.
Best response on here, IMHO.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:48 AM   #40
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"Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the "four-in-one" God. These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. The Three of the Divine Trinity cannot be confused or separated, and the four-in-one also cannot be separated or confused." Witness Lee A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing
This strikes me as Lee daring someone to call him heretical. And no one should be blamed for doing so.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:05 AM   #41
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This strikes me as Lee daring someone to call him heretical. And no one should be blamed for doing so.
I wonder if we shouldn't use any of these phrases to describe God: Truine, Trinity, 3-in-1, etc. They are all extra-biblical and not found specifically stated in scripture.
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:58 AM   #42
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Well, strictly speaking, EVERYTHING outside of the canon of Scripture is extra-biblical. When the 27 books of the New Testament were "accepted", the canon was closed. Every word ever written or spoken since that time could be considered as "extra-biblical". Since the end of the 1st century there has been a set of normative interpretations, expressed in writings, creeds and statements of faith, and is commonly known as orthodoxy.

Someone's teachings could be considered as biblically orthodox. Yet they are extra-biblical by definition. Someone's teachings could be considered as unorthodox, yet not necessarily heretical, per se. Yet another persons teachings could be considered as biblically unorthodox, yet not rank heresy. Finally, there is rank heresy.

Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching, this does not in any way mitigate the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)

So the bottom line is: There are extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as orthodox. There are also extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as heretical. We don't burn heretics at the stake anymore (thankfully)..but we should put a torch to their false, heretical and harmful teachings.

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Old 09-18-2019, 11:14 AM   #43
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Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching in no way mitigates the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)
-
I could never forget the story told by Don Rutledge during the heyday of the New Way. Some young ministry groupie came back to the USA announcing how he alone has access to the MOTA and now we know that, "1st is the Father, 2nd is the Son, 3rd is the Spirit, and 4th is Witness Lee."

Someone then squeaked out, "And who is No. 5?' ... Crickets ...
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Old 09-18-2019, 11:32 AM   #44
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Crickets are number 5!? I had no idea!
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Old 09-18-2019, 11:49 AM   #45
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No, I'm #5. THEN you hear the crickets.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:30 PM   #46
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No, I'm #5. THEN you hear the crickets.
No, no, no ... don't you guys understand anything?

It was Philip Lee. It all makes so much sense. But no body would admit it ... except for the crickets. Get it?
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:34 PM   #47
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No, no, no ... don't you guys understand anything?
Like Jesus' disciples, just us sheeple here! (God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . .)



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Old 09-18-2019, 07:48 PM   #48
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Like Jesus' disciples, just us sheeple here! (God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . .)
"God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . . "

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Old 09-20-2019, 04:05 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching, this does not in any way mitigate the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)

So the bottom line is: There are extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as orthodox. There are also extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as heretical. We don't burn heretics at the stake anymore (thankfully)..but we should put a torch to their false, heretical and harmful teachings.[/COLOR]
-
Okay, so back on topic . . .

Yes, 4-in-1 is a bit much. But it is very hard to describe the union that we've been brought into by the good pleasure of our Father, is it not? Lee may have gone overboard (I agree with that) and pushed the envelope. But, as you point out, He could also be mainstream. And through His ministry, I must say, I came to see that there was more to the organic union that God has brought us into, than what a lot of mainstream Christianity routinely acknowledges.

(So go ahead now and let 'er rip!)
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