Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Orthopraxy - Christian Practice

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-21-2012, 12:44 PM   #1
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

"THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CHURCHES AND THE WORK
Now I need to turn to the second line, and that is the relationship between the churches and the work. I said this is a big subject.

We devoted one entire elders’ training to this subject. So, I shouldn’t try to say too much. Both the church and the work are governed by the same principle, and that is the Body of Christ. The Body is the governing principle. When the Body is expressed locally that is the church. When the Body is active in seeking increase, that is the work.

The jurisdiction is different, but the principle is the same. So, consider the church. What is the church, a local church. A local church is an expression of the universal Body of Christ in a specific locality.

When you begin to meet as the church on the ground of oneness, you are declaring that you are part of the Body of Christ. You meet on the ground of the oneness of the Body, and you begin your church in the fellowship of the Body, but now you are a local church,. a local church as an expression of the Body.

The administration is local. There are elders in every church in the New Testament, and so the elders in the church decide whether or not they want to invite a certain worker to their place. A worker cannot come and force his way in; he does not have authority there. You may invite anyone you want.

The church in Cranka can invite Pope Benedict the 16th. That would be strange, but they have the right to do it. My point is that we respect the local church, we don’t step on the administration of the local church. There are elders in the church. So, the work does not dictate to the church.
"

Ron Kangas 2007
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 03:43 PM   #2
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CHURCHES AND THE WORK

To supplement what Ron Kangas spoke is found on page 100 of The Normal Christian Church Life.

"It has been repeated again and again, but let us point it out once again, that churches are local, and nothing outside the locality must interfere with them, nor must they interfere with anything beyond that sphere. Church affairs are to be managed by local men who, on account of their comparative spiritual maturity, have been appointed to be elders. As the work of the apostles is to preach the gospel and found churches, not to take responsibility in the churches already established, their office is not a church office. If they go to work in a place where no church exists, then they should seek to found one by the proclamation of the gospel; but if one exists already, then their work must be distinct from it. In the will of God "the church" and "the work" follow two distinct lines.
The work belongs to the apostles, while the churches belong to the local believers. The apostles are responsible for the work in any place, and the church is responsible for all the children of God there. In the matter of church fellowship the apostles regard themselves as the brethren of all believers in the city, but in the matter of work, they regard themselves as its personnel, and maintain a distinction between themselves and the church. As members of the Body, they meet for mutual edification with all their fellow members in the locality; but as ministering members of the Body, their specific ministry constitutes them a group of workers apart from the church. It is wrong for the apostles to interfere with the affairs of the church, but it is equally wrong for the church to interfere with the affairs of the work.
"
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 07:13 PM   #3
rayliotta
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 602
Default do words speak louder than actions?

From Living Stream Ministry's "1299 Massachusetts Avenue" website:

"...Living Stream Ministry serves as a support organization to all similar local churches worldwide...Church in Boston is not under Living Stream Ministry in any way. Rather, the latter exists to supply and support local churches like Church in Boston and to provide services not easily carried out by these small congregations worldwide. The use of the newly renovated building at 1299 Massachusetts Ave. will perfectly match the respective functions of its joint participants."

"Church in Boston and Living Stream Ministry, being parts of one fellowship of churches and service organizations, share the same beliefs and practices..."

www.1299massave.com
rayliotta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 08:00 PM   #4
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: do words speak louder than actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post

"Church in Boston and Living Stream Ministry, being parts of one fellowship of churches and service organizations,
Fellowship of churches or federation of churches?

"The churches in Scripture are intensely local. We never find any federation of churches there; they are all independent units."

The Normal Chrsitian Church Life page 119
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 08:49 PM   #5
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,873
Default Re: do words speak louder than actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
From Living Stream Ministry's "1299 Massachusetts Avenue" website:

"...Living Stream Ministry serves as a support organization to all similar local churches worldwide...Church in Boston is not under Living Stream Ministry in any way. Rather, the latter exists to supply and support local churches like Church in Boston and to provide services not easily carried out by these small congregations worldwide. The use of the newly renovated building at 1299 Massachusetts Ave. will perfectly match the respective functions of its joint participants."

"Church in Boston and Living Stream Ministry, being parts of one fellowship of churches and service organizations, share the same beliefs and practices..."
I don't believe any of this talk. Funny thing is that the so-called "Church in Boston" did not exist until LSM bought this building and remodeled it. They used to be the "Church in Cambridge."

Just a few miles away is the Church in Newton, but they won't have any fellowship with them because they refused to agree with the quarantine of TC.

I wonder how much all this real estate cost LSM? All that "history" in Boston does not come cheap.



New Life for Edward Everett Square in Dorchester Boston

Edward Everett Square in Dorchester is an intersection of six main roads and a strategic connecting point between many places in the Boston area. It is also a place rich in history. Blake House, the oldest house in Boston and the oldest of its kind in America, is now located near the square about 400 yards from where it was built in 1650. The square is named after the outstanding 19th century statesman and orator, Edward Everett, who was born here. Also nearby is the birthplace and residence of John W. McCormack, distinguished member of Congress from 1928 to 1971 and Speaker of the House from 1962 to 1971.

The square has also been the site of the distinctive triangular building built in the late 1920s as an auto dealership and for many years a local landmark. About ten years ago another two floors were added to the building, but full construction was never finished. This building has now been purchased by Living Stream Ministry for joint use with a local Christian congregation, Church in Boston.

Living Stream Ministry and Church in Boston are pleased to announce their intention to completely renovate this landmark building for the joint uses of both organizations. It is our sincere desire and hope that this building, when finished, will further enhance the overall improvements at Edward Everett Square, which many of our neighbors have been working on for years. Construction is expected to begin soon and to be completed by the end of 2011.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 09:16 PM   #6
rayliotta
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 602
Default Re: do words speak louder than actions?

"Church in Boston and Living Stream Ministry, being parts of one fellowship of churches and service organizations..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Fellowship of churches or federation of churches?

"The churches in Scripture are intensely local. We never find any federation of churches there; they are all independent units."

The Normal Chrsitian Church Life page 119
Aren't they using this expression, fellowship of churches, because it is understood by other denominations? Aren't they implying, admitting, that they are "just another" Christian denomination with a fellowship of churches around the world?
rayliotta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 09:20 PM   #7
rayliotta
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 602
Default Re: do words speak louder than actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I don't believe any of this talk. Funny thing is that the so-called "Church in Boston" did not exist until LSM bought this building and remodeled it. They used to be the "Church in Cambridge."

Just a few miles away is the Church in Newton, but they won't have any fellowship with them because they refused to agree with the quarantine of TC.

I wonder how much all this real estate cost LSM? All that "history" in Boston does not come cheap.
Below is a link to the Bereans forum thread where we discussed this, at length, a while back.

Ohio, are you familiar with more about Newton than what was posted here?

http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=50345
rayliotta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 09:28 PM   #8
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
"

The administration is local. There are elders in every church in the New Testament, and so the elders in the church decide whether or not they want to invite a certain worker to their place. A worker cannot come and force his way in; he does not have authority there. You may invite anyone you want.

The church in Cranka can invite Pope Benedict the 16th. That would be strange, but they have the right to do it. My point is that we respect the local church, we don’t step on the administration of the local church. There are elders in the church. So, the work does not dictate to the church.
"
For example say you're the Church in Vista, you may invite anyone you want. The co-workers would have to respect this local church and not dictate nor recommend who the Church in Vista should or should not receive.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2012, 09:49 PM   #9
rayliotta
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 602
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

"Church in Boston and Living Stream Ministry, being parts of one fellowship of churches and service organizations, share the same beliefs and practices..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
For example say you're the Church in Vista, you may invite anyone you want. The co-workers would have to respect this local church and not dictate nor recommend who the Church in Vista should or should not receive.
Yet if they were to actually invite Pope Benedict XVI, would they be in danger of "not sharing the same practices" anymore?

To put it a different way, are young people's drum sets more serious than the Pope?
rayliotta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 08:23 AM   #10
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,873
Default Re: do words speak louder than actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
Ohio, are you familiar with more about Newton than what was posted here?
A little, I know a few people, Newton has connections to the GLA.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 08:28 AM   #11
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,873
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
"THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CHURCHES AND THE WORK
Now I need to turn to the second line, and that is the relationship between the churches and the work. I said this is a big subject.

The church in Cranka can invite Pope Benedict the 16th. That would be strange, but they have the right to do it. My point is that we respect the local church, we don’t step on the administration of the local church. There are elders in the church. So, the work does not dictate to the church.
"

Ron Kangas 2007
This is pure BS. The sad thing is that RK believes what he says. The Pharisees believed what they said too.

There are far too many stories of WL/LSM manipulations to believe this.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 08:33 AM   #12
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,873
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
"Church in Boston and Living Stream Ministry, being parts of one fellowship of churches and service organizations, share the same beliefs and practices..."
Just a cursory read of the N.T. would tell us that none of the churches of old "share the same beliefs and practices." If that were true, then Paul could have sent the exact same epistle to every place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
To put it a different way, are young people's drum sets more serious than the Pope?
It depends on which factor becomes a greater threat to LSM's power base.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 11:43 AM   #13
rayliotta
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 602
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Just a cursory read of the N.T. would tell us that none of the churches of old "share the same beliefs and practices." If that were true, then Paul could have sent the exact same epistle to every place.
That's a really interesting point. Doesn't LSM send all of its "epistles" -- announcements, warning letters, etc -- to all the localities?

If Paul had had the functionality of email available to him, would he have conveniently sent all his epistles to all the churches?
rayliotta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 12:18 PM   #14
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
Doesn't LSM send all of its "epistles" -- announcements, warning letters, etc -- to all the localities?
Not exactly.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 12:24 PM   #15
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
There are far too many stories of WL/LSM manipulations to believe this.
Those stories would point how once again practices are in contradiction to the ministry. On the west coast alone I can think of several illustrations where co-workers dictated to the church. Of course in using the word dictate is too strong. More appropriately, but with the same understanding is "recommendation" or "fellowship" in "respecting the feeling of the body".
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 05:10 PM   #16
rayliotta
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 602
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Not exactly.
what do you mean
rayliotta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2012, 06:57 PM   #17
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
what do you mean
Each locality distribute their own announcements. Of which may included LSM related announcements such as bi-annual trainings. Warning letters aren't always distributed. I've only heard of it when concerning co-workers. When concerning a brother or sister, I have not. I'm sure co-workers would violate the affairs of the church by interjecting an opinion concerning a brother or sister which of course will influence the elder or elders of that locality. As it has happened on multiple ocassions
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2012, 08:56 AM   #18
rayliotta
Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 602
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Each locality distribute their own announcements. Of which may included LSM related announcements such as bi-annual trainings. Warning letters aren't always distributed. I've only heard of it when concerning co-workers. When concerning a brother or sister, I have not. I'm sure co-workers would violate the affairs of the church by interjecting an opinion concerning a brother or sister which of course will influence the elder or elders of that locality. As it has happened on multiple ocassions
I was talking about letters sent by LSM. Do they view individual localities as ... individual? Because Paul did, didn't he?

Or do they instead view all the individual localities as really just one big locality, sending the same letter to "All the churches in the Lord's Recovery".

But hey, two sides to everything...
rayliotta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2012, 09:45 PM   #19
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: do words speak louder than actions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayliotta View Post
"Church in Boston and Living Stream Ministry, being parts of one fellowship of churches and service organizations..."



Aren't they using this expression, fellowship of churches, because it is understood by other denominations? Aren't they implying, admitting, that they are "just another" Christian denomination with a fellowship of churches around the world?
It's either denominational or sectarian. Until fellowship becomes more inclusive and receptive to assemblies that aren't taking LSM as their preferred Christian publisher.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 06:52 AM   #20
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,873
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
"THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE CHURCHES AND THE WORK

Both the church and the work are governed by the same principle, and that is the Body of Christ.
Where is this in the Bible? Since when is the "Body of Christ" the governing principle? And just who is this "Body of Christ?" Notice that this "Body of Christ" which Ron Kangas is talking about has nothing to do with the real "Body of Christ" since the real "Body of Christ" is continually condemned by LSM as "poor, degraded Christianity."

Ron Kangas says this as though this is some long established maxim of the faith. Where's the Lord, the Son of Man, the Head of the body, is this equation? Is He not the "governing principle?"

Also, where did this organization called "the work" come from? How did it get elevated to the same status as the church?

Every time I read something from LSM, all sorts of questions arise in my mind. And to think that I used to take it all for granted.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 01:03 PM   #21
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Where is this in the Bible? Since when is the "Body of Christ" the governing principle? And just who is this "Body of Christ?" Notice that this "Body of Christ" which Ron Kangas is talking about has nothing to do with the real "Body of Christ" since the real "Body of Christ" is continually condemned by LSM as "poor, degraded Christianity."
Ohio, I'm sure you realize as I do how within LSM/LC fellowship when the Body of Christ is used, it has a distorted meaning. The distortion being all Christians who fellowship within these many LSM/LC meeting halls. In reality a fraction of the Body. As you know there are many times more Christians meeting in assemblies, homes, etc apart from LSM oriented fellowship. All these dear brothers and sisters are also members of the Body of Christ.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 05:13 PM   #22
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,873
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Ohio, I'm sure you realize as I do how within LSM/LC fellowship when the Body of Christ is used, it has a distorted meaning. The distortion being all Christians who fellowship within these many LSM/LC meeting halls. In reality a fraction of the Body. As you know there are many times more Christians meeting in assemblies, homes, etc apart from LSM oriented fellowship. All these dear brothers and sisters are also members of the Body of Christ.
Has anyone else, outside of the Recovery, heard that the "governing principle is the body of Christ?"

Bet you ask a thousand dedicated Christians, "what is our governing principle?", and they would say scripture, the Lord, the Spirit, God Himself, or some may say "love," but who would say "the body?"

Comments?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2012, 07:00 PM   #23
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,559
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

If “the governing principle of the Body of Christ” was the governing principle of the Local Chuch of Witness Lee, then Witness Lee should have been listening to the rest of the Body of Christ way back in the day when his brothers in Christ were telling him that he was teaching false things. I don’t think the Body of Christ appreciated getting marched upon with banners declaring “down with Babylon” and such. How come the Local Church only listens to the governing principle of the Body of Christ when they agree with them? So when Dr. Walter Martin and his assistants, Bob and Gretchen Passantino, do in depth research regarding the teachings and practices of the Local Church, and find there are false and even cultic things, they are not part of the governing principle of the Body of Christ - But when Dr. Martin and Bob Passantino are gone, all of the sudden Dr. Martin’s wealthy replacement and Bob’s widow are all of the sudden the biggest and best governing principle of the Body of Christ? Yeah right.
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 02:48 PM   #24
Nell
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 878
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Has anyone else, outside of the Recovery, heard that the "governing principle is the body of Christ?"

Bet you ask a thousand dedicated Christians, "what is our governing principle?", and they would say scripture, the Lord, the Spirit, God Himself, or some may say "love," but who would say "the body?"

Comments?
Ohio,

I think anyone outside the LC would say something like "Huh? What are you talking about?"

Someone once said to me "WHO TALKS THAT WAY?" That topic was about "being 'constituted' with Witness Lee's Ministry". Same type thing. The phraseology is so strange it's hard to take seriously.

Nell
Nell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 08:35 PM   #25
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,204
Default Re: The Relationship Between The Churches And The Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
If “the governing principle of the Body of Christ” was the governing principle of the Local Chuch of Witness Lee, then Witness Lee should have been listening to the rest of the Body of Christ way back in the day when his brothers in Christ were telling him that he was teaching false things. I don’t think the Body of Christ appreciated getting marched upon with banners declaring “down with Babylon” and such. How come the Local Church only listens to the governing principle of the Body of Christ when they agree with them? So when Dr. Walter Martin and his assistants, Bob and Gretchen Passantino, do in depth research regarding the teachings and practices of the Local Church, and find there are false and even cultic things, they are not part of the governing principle of the Body of Christ - But when Dr. Martin and Bob Passantino are gone, all of the sudden Dr. Martin’s wealthy replacement and Bob’s widow are all of the sudden the biggest and best governing principle of the Body of Christ? Yeah right.
UntoHim, your post ties very much into a phrase I've heard time after time: "the feeling of the Body". Another way to phrase a portion of your post, is "the feeling of the Body" only listened to when it benefits Living Stream and the work they endorse. When you or I speak of the sin of partiality, that wouldn't benefit LSM or it's work so it must not be according to the feeling of the body. LSM has used the turmoils to make a mockery of Isaiah 5:20. LSM needed to for it's benefit and say anything contrary to what LSM published about the turmoils is not "according to the feeling of the body". There are many members objecting.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:20 AM.


3.8.9