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Old 08-25-2016, 07:30 PM   #1
Koinonia
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Default Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

UntoHim, this is probably part of the reason why current LC members do not participate in this forum more frequently. When you first started this message board, you encouraged people to post without registering--if that made them more comfortable.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:38 AM   #2
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Default Why don't Current LC Post Here?

Koinonia,

Your point has merit, and is well taken.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this "Evangelical" person has posted over 20 times, and has sought to interact with other members in a rather comprehensive way. It's not like he/she was just a hit-n-run type poster. They are seeking significant dialog, and that is what this forum is all about.

At this point, anybody on earth can come and post under this name "Evangelical". Out of respect for our forum members, and to avoid confusion, I have always required membership for anyone who wants to enter into our discussions in any significant manner.

As always, I am open from input from all the forum members.


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Old 08-26-2016, 07:39 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Koinonia,

Your point has merit, and is well taken.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but this "Evangelical" person has posted over 20 times, and has sought to interact with other members in a rather comprehensive way. It's not like he/she was just a hit-n-run type poster. They are seeking significant dialog, and that is what this forum is all about.

At this point, anybody on earth can come and post under this name "Evangelical". Out of respect for our forum members, and to avoid confusion, I have always required membership for anyone who wants to enter into our discussions in any significant manner.

As always, I am open from input from all the forum members.


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Thank you, UntoHim. Many/most current members of the LC are in a completely different demographic from most of the people here (spiritually, culturally, ethnically, socioeconomically, geographically, etc., etc). I say this as a fairly recent leaver; I believe there is quite a big disconnect. I know that many in my set (2nd-generation, SoCal, Asian, FTTA, etc.) have a lot of doubts and questions about the LC. However--they would also be deeply suspicious of someone like you and of the organization of this board, even if they would allow themselves to lurk here. I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

Just my thoughts offered for consideration.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:24 AM   #4
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Default Why don't Current LC Post Here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Thank you, UntoHim. Many/most current members of the LC are in a completely different demographic from most of the people here (spiritually, culturally, ethnically, socioeconomically, geographically, etc., etc). I say this as a fairly recent leaver; I believe there is quite a big disconnect. I know that many in my set (2nd-generation, SoCal, Asian, FTTA, etc.) have a lot of doubts and questions about the LC. However--they would also be deeply suspicious of someone like you and of the organization of this board, even if they would allow themselves to lurk here. I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.

Just my thoughts offered for consideration.
Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:45 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
...more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.
Please expound upon this if you will. Safe from what? From harsh criticism of Witness Lee? From having to answer some tough questions regarding the teachings and practices? From the general tone and tenor of some of the regular posters? I am not - repeat NOT- saying that none of these concerns (such as they exist) among current LC members is not legitimate, I am only seeking a little more in depth understanding of any reasons they may have for not entering into dialog.

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.


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Old 08-26-2016, 09:38 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
I feel the reason this board has gotten somewhat dead over the last months and years, and does not attract more participation from current members (and others), is that more effort is not given to make this a "safe space" for them.
I have a bit of a different view about this. It's true that LCers are risking something by even coming to this forum, and I also understand the reasoning behind why people are allowed to post anonymously, but it seems there is little benefit to allow regular posters to do so. It's a matter of accountability. If someone has a username, they have to stand behind what they say. It's a bit frustrating when you engage with someone only to have them disappear once they get themselves into hot water. I've seen it happen quite a few times. And that is valuable time wasted on the part of members here who go out of the way to respond to their posts. I understand that LCers are sensitive about what they believe and even more so about defending it, but like anyone else, they still need to learn how to discuss things in a mature way.

Regarding LCers having a "safe space", I think that's just about the last thing that they need, and if fact, they already have it within the confines of their meeting halls and training centers. The way I see the issue is this: LC leadership has effectively stigmatized everything on the internet. Members who venture out as far as this forum are already disobeying leaders. And I think their willingness to do so is a quest for answers. They might not know what answers they're looking for, but they know they're not getting the entire picture in the LC. So for those who have found their way here, getting to the forum wasn't the issue. They already knew beforehand that the material here wasn't going to be pro-LC.

What then I see as the real hindrance for participation on this forum is actually kind of related to the topic of this thread. LCers have been taught that engaging in discussion, discourse or debate is 'fleshly' and part of the "natural man." They might read a lot of things on this forum, but then when it comes to engaging, it's a bit hard to do. They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them?
Yes, all the time.

Quote:
If so, how do you feel about this attitude?
May I ask why are you asking me this question?
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:16 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Please expound upon this if you will. Safe from what? From harsh criticism of Witness Lee? From having to answer some tough questions regarding the teachings and practices? From the general tone and tenor of some of the regular posters? I am not - repeat NOT- saying that none of these concerns (such as they exist) among current LC members is not legitimate, I am only seeking a little more in depth understanding of any reasons they may have for not entering into dialog.

Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.


-
What I mean is--in order to encourage current LC members to come here and dialogue, we need to make it a little easier for them. I feel the onus is on us to do that. Obviously, this does not mean agreeing with them. But try to look at it from an LCer's perspective... if they are already here at all, that's huge. But if they feel they want to post anonymously (as a guest)--in order to protect their own relationships with friends and family, but think the board moderator will hound them to register every time they do so, most likely that will discourage them from getting involved.

I have a few other ideas, but do not have time to respond in depth at just the moment. I will do so soon, however.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:22 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
I have a bit of a different view about this. It's true that LCers are risking something by even coming to this forum, and I also understand the reasoning behind why people are allowed to post anonymously, but it seems there is little benefit to allow regular posters to do so. It's a matter of accountability. If someone has a username, they have to stand behind what they say. It's a bit frustrating when you engage with someone only to have them disappear once they get themselves into hot water. I've seen it happen quite a few times. And that is valuable time wasted on the part of members here who go out of the way to respond to their posts. I understand that LCers are sensitive about what they believe and even more so about defending it, but like anyone else, they still need to learn how to discuss things in a mature way.

Regarding LCers having a "safe space", I think that's just about the last thing that they need, and if fact, they already have it within the confines of their meeting halls and training centers. The way I see the issue is this: LC leadership has effectively stigmatized everything on the internet. Members who venture out as far as this forum are already disobeying leaders. And I think their willingness to do so is a quest for answers. They might not know what answers they're looking for, but they know they're not getting the entire picture in the LC. So for those who have found their way here, getting to the forum wasn't the issue. They already knew beforehand that the material here wasn't going to be pro-LC.

What then I see as the real hindrance for participation on this forum is actually kind of related to the topic of this thread. LCers have been taught that engaging in discussion, discourse or debate is 'fleshly' and part of the "natural man." They might read a lot of things on this forum, but then when it comes to engaging, it's a bit hard to do. They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.
I completely agree with you about why LCers do not come and post. But I think we should try to help them in that situation in order to encourage more of an atmosphere of active "dissent" amongst LC members--many of whom have real problems with the LC but would never say so openly (I know this from a lot of experience and dialogue with others). I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.

For some idea of what I mean, search around the internet for some of the ex-JW and "fading" JW websites like JWStruggle, JWFacts, and JWSurvey. These kind of up-to-date resources and discussions are sorely lacking when it comes to the LC, and I am actively considering how to help change that.

Again, more later...
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.

LocalChurchDiscussions was never intended to be a debate forum for ex-LC members. As a matter of fact, you may have noticed, there is no "debate" area on the forum. This is by design. Although I'm not against a good, civil, healthy debate, they are usually not the best tool to foster dialog between current and former members.

Your "wider space" notion is something that I have always hoped could develop here. Besides the "moderator hounding people to register", what else can you point out that may be hindering from LCD becoming such a "space" for current members?

***This question is not just for Koinonia, but for everyone out there. The more input, the better!

Quote:
For some idea of what I mean, search around the internet for some of the ex-JW and "fading" JW websites like JWStruggle, JWFacts, and JWSurvey. These kind of up-to-date resources and discussions are sorely lacking when it comes to the LC, and I am actively considering how to help change that.
Of those you mention, only JWStruggle has a forum. As a matter of fact, this forum is about the same size as ours (between 250-300 registered members) and has about the same amount of activity. ***Did you notice that guests are not even allowed to post at all. REGISTRATION IS REQUIRED TO MAKE A REPLY OR START A THREAD. I think you will find this true for the vast majority of Internet Forums.

Having open posting is a HUGE security threat to any Internet forum. Trust me, I have found this out the hard way. I don't see how registering compromises one's identity. They can reveal as little or as much about themselves as they feel comfortable with. Obviously, one can post under a "UserName" that does not reveal anything about themselves.

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Old 08-26-2016, 12:45 PM   #11
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Not that I'm an expert on this by any means, but I think one could create a Gmail account using almost any kind of name not taken and I don't think anybody but the Ruskies or Assange or the NSA could track down the identify of the owner of the email account. But, I could be wrong. Just my two cents. My guess is that there are many LC lurkers reading here, but aren't ready to post. I know I read for quite awhile before I first posted and then it was a post about leaving. Really, the problem could be resolved if LSM ran its own forum where members could post questions and concerns and discuss things among the "family", but it would be a cold day in the opposite of heaven (Just in case the sister-censor is reading!) before that will happen.
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Old 08-26-2016, 03:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Yes, all the time. May I ask why are you asking me this question?
Just curious. It was really a superfluous question, admittedly. If you are out then I can probably figure out how you feel about it.
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The two truths "obey your leaders" and "let each be fully persuaded in his own mind" cannot co-exist without the concession that (1) we need to respect those who part ways with us for reasons of conscience, and (2) the logical corollary that we must respect other gatherings in our locality.
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Old 08-28-2016, 04:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Nobody wants to see current members come and dialog more then me. I pray for it every day. However, I fully understand the mentality we are up against. I was there for about two decades - much of it in Orange County Calif in the 70s/early 80s at the feet of Witness Lee just about every week, at every 10 day training and every major holiday conference. I "set my clock for 6 O'clock to be right on time" for the morning watch.

Forgive my frankness, but I know the sickness because I was there for years. Now, having been out for another two decades, I have some measure of confidence of the best medicine for these dear brothers and sisters. It is found in the truth of the Gospel. It is found in the truth of the Word. It is found in the Spirit of truth, who is the ONLY One who can guide us into all truth.

To Koinonia and all: I am for ANYTHING that points our forum members, lurkers, current Local Church members, and all Christians to the Truth of the Gospel, the Truth of the Word of God and to the Spirit of Truth Himself. If this can happen, even on the smallest scale, this will be the safest and sanest place for our Local Church brothers and sisters, and our discussions will be profitable for all concerned.


-

Thanks for your attitude and faithfulness to stand and pray for truth, Unto Him.

Local Church indoctrination to not be open to anything that questions "the ministry", attachment to past good experiences in the LC, and fear of LC leaders reprisals against my family members took me a while to get over. I suspect those are the biggest factors vs registration here for current LC members.

Keep encouraging registration by pointing out its benefits while reminding that it is not required. It might be good to point out that registration info is kept completely confidential.
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Old 08-28-2016, 05:03 PM   #14
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Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?
I heard from BP's own mouth that if you leave TLR that you can't go on with the Lord. I've heard from LC elders and senior members that bad things can happen to those who touch the Ministry in a negative way. For me it took Herculean effort and resolve to extract me and my family. Satan has strong spiritual, psychological and sociological tricks to keep people in the deception.
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Old 08-29-2016, 11:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by JJ View Post

Local Church indoctrination to not be open to anything that questions "the ministry", attachment to past good experiences in the LC, and fear of LC leaders reprisals against my family members took me a while to get over. I suspect those are the biggest factors vs registration here for current LC members.
Reprisals? Would the brothers even do such a thing? Probably not, but more likely forum participants regularly meeting with a local church may no longer be welcome to meet. I think that's one element that keeps LCers from posting. Another one is constant warnings of "the internet". Lastly whether personal or electronic contact are warnings about "being poisoned" by the opposers, rebels, etc.
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Old 08-29-2016, 12:34 PM   #16
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Reprisals? Would the brothers even do such a thing? Probably not. . .
How about, "You'll never talk to your grandkids again"? Or your children, neices, etc. The strength of this social network is, if you go against it you never come back. Believe me, that has holding power.

Math quiz: how many have gotten cut off, or quarantined, or whatever terminology they use, over the past 40-odd years? And how many of those got any rapprochement, or rehabilitation?

I can only think of one, a guy that repented and came back, and they made him sit in the back for a year, and not speak. Other than that, nobody once out ever made it back in. It's a closed shop, kiddos, pretty intimidating stuff. But they don't mention any of this when they go out recruiting new ones on the campus. "Oh, we're just Christians who love Jesus and gather in His name". Right.
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Old 08-30-2016, 04:07 AM   #17
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Math quiz: how many have gotten cut off, or quarantined, or whatever terminology they use, over the past 40-odd years? And how many of those got any rapprochement, or rehabilitation?
The GLA was different. It might be harder for leaders who opposed TC to his face, but I've seen some of the rank and file return to open arms, like the prodogal son. One I know even said publicly it was a cult.
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Old 08-30-2016, 05:41 AM   #18
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Now I am registered, you can all be more confident that whoever posts under my name is myself and not another person.
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Old 08-30-2016, 05:55 AM   #19
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Now I am registered, you can all be more confident that whoever posts under my name is myself and not another person.
Welcome. And I apologize in advance for being small-minded, petty, vindictive, judgmental, and bitter.

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I've seen some of the rank and file return to open arms, like the prodigal son. One I know even said publicly it was a cult.
As seen by Ohio's reply to my post, what I often assert as being of thus-and-such manner may not match someone else's view, or experience. Thankfully people on this forum have been kind to me, in spite of my broad-brush generalities. May God grant us all grace to communicate with one another. I daresay it's needed.
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Old 08-30-2016, 06:10 AM   #20
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Welcome. And I apologize in advance for being small-minded, petty, vindictive, judgmental, and bitter.



As seen by Ohio's reply to my post, what I often assert as being of thus-and-such manner may not match someone else's view, or experience. Thankfully people on this forum have been kind to me, in spite of my broad-brush generalities. May God grant us all grace to communicate with one another. I daresay it's needed.
I love this forum! How refreshing! Yes, Lord, grant us all grace to communicate in a manner that reflects your great love for us.
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Old 08-30-2016, 11:53 AM   #21
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How about, "You'll never talk to your grandkids again"? Or your children, neices, etc. The strength of this social network is, if you go against it you never come back. Believe me, that has holding power.

Math quiz: how many have gotten cut off, or quarantined, or whatever terminology they use, over the past 40-odd years? And how many of those got any rapprochement, or rehabilitation?

I can only think of one, a guy that repented and came back, and they made him sit in the back for a year, and not speak. Other than that, nobody once out ever made it back in. It's a closed shop, kiddos, pretty intimidating stuff. But they don't mention any of this when they go out recruiting new ones on the campus. "Oh, we're just Christians who love Jesus and gather in His name". Right.
I can think of one former elder whose niece continues meeting with no reprisals in North Carolina. Or another one whose son last I knew was meeting with San Diego. I do think certain ones whose last name ties them to former leading ones (Ingalls, Knoch, Chu, etc) will be looked upon with suspicion, but not barred from assembly.
Take myself for example, if the brothers from my parent's Sothern Cal locality knew I'm "active on the internet". Nothing would happen to my parents, but whenever my family and I came in town to visit wouldn't be welcome to attend.
I do agree social networks that exist in the local churches is a ripe environment to cause strained relationships and may even reject those who have left. Still it's not a one size fits all type of culture.
I think it comes down to spiritual maturity of brothers and sisters. I have known of brothers and sisters who can receive ones who have left the local churches. Other brothers and sisters whose receiving is based on "if you meet with a locality" haven't shown a growth in life. Action speaks louder than words.
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Old 08-30-2016, 12:37 PM   #22
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. . it's not a one size fits all type of culture.
I think it comes down to spiritual maturity of brothers and sisters. .
Thanks for taking the time to modify my statements. I've had limited contact with them for several years, and the LCM I'm now railing against may exist only in my head, which possibility causes me no small amusement.

"But I really, really like sweeping generalizations. . they're so satisfying to write!"
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Old 08-30-2016, 02:19 PM   #23
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Now I am registered, you can all be more confident that whoever posts under my name is myself and not another person.
Well, only if you don't share your sign-in information with others, right?😉
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Old 09-01-2016, 11:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

My observation of this forum so far, is that it is great to be able to share and discuss in a relatively safe environment.

My other observation as a local church member, is that I have never discussed about Lee/Nee as much in my local church, as I have here.
I find this rather ironic and amusing, because supposedly we or I are "Lee followers". The meetings have always uplifted Christ, there is really no other name mentioned as frequently.

So I am thinking some of your perspectives are somewhat wrong and perhaps outdated. Just as my perspectives are ignorant of past history.

This was one of the reasons I decided to come to the forum. Not to persuade anyone to do anything, but to highlight that things aren't possibly as bad as made out, or as widespread.

I could recount numerous denominational experiences that were just as bad, or worse. So in my experience the LR is an improvement.

The corruptions of greed, money, power, control, can affect any human being.

I would encourage people to remember to keep the focus on Christ. Holding onto the Head, but also not forgetting the Body.
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Old 09-02-2016, 06:03 AM   #25
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

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My observation of this forum so far, is that it is great to be able to share and discuss in a relatively safe environment.
I hope it always stays that way. The world needs safe places where people feel welcome to be themselves. All people. We may not agree on all things, but we have a lot in common. That's why I try to acknowledge the occasionally rancorous tone of my postings. I write because I enjoy writing. But if others don't enjoy reading it, then I'm being rather selfish, no? This is a great place to treat others' ideas with the respect that you'd hope they would have for yours.

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My other observation as a local church member, is that I have never discussed about Lee/Nee as much in my local church, as I have here.
The reason for that is that one doesn't discuss the Ascended Master. He's off limits. Even when he's wrong, he's right. So don't bother to examine him. Just focus on Christ. Right?

Unfortunately the 'Christ' you focus on is filtered through this quite-human ministry, with all its attendant, unexamined quirks and foibles, and therefore this 'Christ' often looks little like the one plainly seen in scriptures. The Bible says that many Christs have come into this world, and not all of them are good, or true.

So we should prove all things, especially ministries which make exaggerated and lofty claims for themselves. You know, the Seer of the Divine Revelation, the One Trumpet, God's Oracle, stuff like that.
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Old 12-07-2016, 02:51 PM   #26
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

I have not been to this forum for some time now. I chose to avoid all conversation on the matter with my husband and decided it was best to live and let live. I have not been meeting with any church as the Christianity is degraded, and worse, comments are depressing to hear all the time. My husband is a good man. But, he is not open whatsoever to any other teachings than Witness Lee and the ministry. If I ask any questions or bring up alternative views, I am schooled and lately he sarcastically avoids discussions by saying "You have been reading lies on the internet." I know without a doubt that everyone in the local church here believes that you are disloyal to the oneness and the ministry if you question the teachings, especially on forums such as this. They really are afraid to research or listen to anyone who has a different view. My husband would never allow himself to be touched by something worldly like this forum. Probably even go as far as to say it is of Satan. I suppose it is fear and at times arrogance. It is amazing to me how powerful the ministry "brainwashing" is with otherwise intelligent people. My husband researches everything else, but not his own church. Which by the way, is hypocritical as he says that other denominations do not know their own history. I probably aggravate it as I say the LC is as denominational as any of the others! Needless to say, it is not surprising at all that active LC members do not post here.
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

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My husband researches everything else, but not his own church. Which by the way, is hypocritical as he says that other denominations do not know their own history.
At some point back in the day, Witness Lee actually encouraged members to study church history. Then when brothers actually did so, he turned on them, saying they were "wasting their time because everything they needed to know about church history can be found in his ministry" (paraphrase). This kind of double take was very common with Lee. He would feign interest in his followers studying church history. or even the teachings of certain theologians of the past (Darby, Andrew Murray..a few others) but then he would become concerned that people would actually find out that much of what he tried to pass off as "recovered truth" was taken from the ministry of others. Sadly, Witness Lee wasted untold amounts of time and energy making sure that his followers didn't find out that "the emperor had no clothes". But many did find out. And here we are.

Now, almost two decades after his passing, a whole lot of some of the most sincere and well-meaning people are still, to this day, convinced that Witness Lee was actually some kind of "one minister with the one ministry for the age." But they are in an echo chamber of their own making. Oh Lord, have mercy!

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Old 12-08-2016, 12:11 AM   #28
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My husband researches everything else, but not his own church. Which by the way, is hypocritical as he says that other denominations do not know their own history.
A suggestion - you can respond in accordance with the ministry he follows. For example, rather than argue, you can tell him that he needs to repent and keep his mind on the Lord not you. He may appreciate you more for giving advice in accordance with the ministry. We should try not to argue about religion with our spouses, keeping our comments and opinions to ourselves, but trying to pursue the Lord together.
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Old 12-08-2016, 01:34 PM   #29
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I completely agree with you about why LCers do not come and post. But I think we should try to help them in that situation in order to encourage more of an atmosphere of active "dissent" amongst LC members--many of whom have real problems with the LC but would never say so openly (I know this from a lot of experience and dialogue with others). I guess I am less interested in having a good debate forum frequented by a handful of ex-LC members than I am in having a wider space where many active LCers can work through their problems and questions in the context of a supportive online community, and even post information about what is going within the LC on a day-to-day basis.
I wanted to bring this post back to the forefront. I'm hoping Koinonia and others out there might expand upon what he has posted here. God knows that I've always hoped and prayed that this could actually become "a supportive online community" of sorts. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that my shortcomings as an administrator and moderator, along with the generally antagonistic atmosphere that can develop between current and former members of any movement, has greatly hindered this kind of atmosphere from developing on the forum.

Maybe we can set up a separate "page", like I have done for "Alternative Views", that would largely be dedicated to communication and fellowship between current members. Any strong or rancorous postings regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church would be restricted. A current Local Church member could be installed as a moderator. Of course anybody who chooses to participate on this forum page will be perfectly free to participate on the main forum as well.

Let me know if this sounds like something that has potential to bring some current members to the forum. I'm open to just about anything that can foster open communication and fellowship.

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Old 12-08-2016, 02:21 PM   #30
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Default Re: Why don't Current LC Post Here?

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I wanted to bring this post back to the forefront. I'm hoping Koinonia and others out there might expand upon what he has posted here. God knows that I've always hoped and prayed that this could actually become "a supportive online community" of sorts. Unfortunately, I'm afraid that my shortcomings as an administrator and moderator, along with the generally antagonistic atmosphere that can develop between current and former members of any movement, has greatly hindered this kind of atmosphere from developing on the forum.
For those like drake, evangelical, and others who come here to promote LC teachings, "discussion" becomes more an avenue for understanding the scriptures on a host of pertinent topics. For "lurkers" or passers-by who come to the forum with legitimate concerns, forum discussions become a means to encourage, provide clarifications, share experiences, or just help release them from fear. Both have been helpful to me.

As a suggestion, it would be nice in the "Introduction and Testimony" sub-forum to exclude ALL poster-to-poster responses, and allow ONLY poster-to-OP dialog. In this way unregistered guests or newly registered posters would "control" all discussions, and prevent those all-to-common "tangents" from occurring. In other words, unless a poster is directly replying to what the OP (Original Poster) has posted, the post will be deleted or moved. The OP would thus "own" the thread.

UntoHim has often mentioned this, but apparently this requires "enforcement."
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Old 12-08-2016, 02:29 PM   #31
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I wanted to bring this post back to the forefront. I'm hoping Koinonia and others out there might expand upon what he has posted here. God knows that I've always hoped and prayed that this could actually become "a supportive online community" of sorts.
UntoHim, it seems like what you intended to be a neutral discussion forum has turned into a local church bashing forum (see the "I'm confused....." post). Currently, a local church member may be attracted to the forum as it seems to represent local church discussion, but find it is local church bashing instead. So I think another section that is more friendly towards the local church may be a good idea. Or perhaps a variety of forums that cater for the various degrees of congeniality or animosity towards the local churches. This would "average out" all the various points of view and move it towards a more moderate and neutral online forum I think. I do not think it has to be moderated by a current local church member. Just someone who has some positive local church experiences and can relate to current members (not someone who was only there for a few weeks and left because they thought it was weird).
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Old 12-09-2016, 08:16 AM   #32
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So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ
Ephesians 4:14,15

Evangelical,
One man's bashing is another man's speaking the truth in love. If Witness Lee was still alive, this is something I'm sure he would heartily agree with. After all, much of Lee's ministry was a ministry of bashing "poor, poor Christianity." There is no doubt that this is something that he picked up from Watchman Nee, and I think he considered criticizing others his main calling. So if you want to call some of us "bashers" of Witness Lee and The Local Church movement, well, what can we say, we learned from the best.

After all these years, one would hope that those who have sat under "the one minister with the one ministry for the age" and claim to represent "The Lord's Recovery" could respond to all our s̶p̶e̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶ ...errrr...bashing with a more intelligible response than "I know you are, but what am I"


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I do not think it has to be moderated by a current local church member. Just someone who has some positive local church experiences and can relate to current members
I don't think there are many, if any, people who fit this description. If you know of one, please let us know. In the meantime, I think the best we can hope for is a current Local Church member to take us up on our offer to set up a forum page which would be accessible to current members.
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Old 12-09-2016, 08:27 AM   #33
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As a suggestion, it would be nice in the "Introduction and Testimony" sub-forum to exclude ALL poster-to-poster responses, and allow ONLY poster-to-OP dialog. In this way unregistered guests or newly registered posters would "control" all discussions, and prevent those all-to-common "tangents" from occurring. In other words, unless a poster is directly replying to what the OP (Original Poster) has posted, the post will be deleted or moved. The OP would thus "own" the thread.
I have always assumed that this is how the Introductions and Testimonies thread would function. I don't think "all poster-to-poster responses" should be excluded per se, but posters should stick to the general theme of the original post. If the original poster, for whatever reason, decides to be "one and done", I think it would be best to just let their original post stand as it is and let it drop off into the archives.
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Old 12-09-2016, 10:01 PM   #34
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Regarding the title, I'm sure the years of being warned about anything that questioned "the ministry" with the "dire consequences" that result scare many away.

We do need to do a better job of exhibiting the Lord's compassion and relying on His long suffering with one another, while balancing the need to speak the truth in love.... a delicate line to walk.

The Lord will ask for an accounting for every word when He returns... a sobering thought.
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Old 12-11-2016, 08:34 PM   #35
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They aren't prepared to stand behind what they say, because usually disagreement/dissension is met with accusing the other party of something like being argumentative or "out of their spirit", etc.
Much like societies liberals, they take the approach their views are right and don't want to engage in any dialogue that could negate what they believe to be correct.
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Old 12-16-2016, 12:04 PM   #36
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So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ
Ephesians 4:14,15

Evangelical,
One man's bashing is another man's speaking the truth in love. If Witness Lee was still alive, this is something I'm sure he would heartily agree with. After all, much of Lee's ministry was a ministry of bashing "poor, poor Christianity." There is no doubt that this is something that he picked up from Watchman Nee, and I think he considered criticizing others his main calling. So if you want to call some of us "bashers" of Witness Lee and The Local Church movement, well, what can we say, we learned from the best.

After all these years, one would hope that those who have sat under "the one minister with the one ministry for the age" and claim to represent "The Lord's Recovery" could respond to all our s̶p̶e̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶u̶t̶h̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶l̶o̶v̶e̶ ...errrr...bashing with a more intelligible response than "I know you are, but what am I"


I don't think there are many, if any, people who fit this description. If you know of one, please let us know. In the meantime, I think the best we can hope for is a current Local Church member to take us up on our offer to set up a forum page which would be accessible to current members.
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UntoHim,

I don't think a separate page would make a difference in attracting local church members. There are other reasons they stay away.

First, I think anonymity is crucial and the forum provides that and you accommodated me by foregoing the usual registration process. That can be done for anyone. That might make a difference for a few.

Second, many local church members are just not interested or they do not consider it a good redemption of time. Some wonder what is the point? Those would never come under any circumstances.

Third, a few might come for some reason and I came to discuss relevant things as Ohio rightly said. Yet, since most conversations pivot, sooner or later, to the sins of PL, or lawsuits, or MOTA or etc. etc. then I am finding it less and less interesting knowing that every discussion will end up in one of these same cul-de-sac s sooner or later.

I don't speak for any current local church members, just my own views.

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Old 12-16-2016, 12:23 PM   #37
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UntoHim,

I don't think a separate page would make a difference in attracting local church members. There are other reasons they stay away.

First, I think anonymity is crucial and the forum provides that and you accommodated me by foregoing the usual registration process. That can be done for anyone. That might make a difference for a few.

Second, many local church members are just not interested or they do not consider it a good redemption of time. Some wonder what is the point? Those would never come under any circumstances.

Third, a few might come for some reason and I came to discuss relevant things as Ohio rightly said. Yet, since most conversations pivot, sooner or later, to the sins of PL, or lawsuits, or MOTA or etc. etc. then I am finding it less and less interesting knowing that every discussion will end up in one of these same cul-de-sac s sooner or later.

I don't speak for any current local church members, just my own views.

Drake
Quick comment, since my name was mentioned.

Lots of things bothered me as a stepped away in 2005 and researched the LSM and LCM.

The things you just mentioned were not adequate to cause me to leave, having lived thru them to varying degrees.

The treatment of John Ingalls was most troubling to me. If Lee could do that, then I felt he was capable of anything.
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Old 12-16-2016, 03:37 PM   #38
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Third, a few might come for some reason and I came to discuss relevant things as Ohio rightly said. Yet, since most conversations pivot, sooner or later, to the sins of PL, or lawsuits, or MOTA or etc. etc. then I am finding it less and less interesting knowing that every discussion will end up in one of these same cul-de-sac s sooner or later.
I'm curious, Drake. Just what would you like to discuss? What would you like people to understand that you don't think they get?
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Old 12-16-2016, 03:45 PM   #39
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I'm curious, Drake. Just what would you like to discuss? What would you like people to understand that you don't think they get?
I don't know what people get.

But I don't find it personally interesting that all roads lead to PL, lawsuits, MOTA, etc.

That's all.
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Old 12-16-2016, 04:34 PM   #40
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I don't know what people get.
But I don't find it personally interesting that all roads lead to PL, lawsuits, MOTA, etc.
That's all.
So what would you rather talk about? That's an honest question.
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Old 12-16-2016, 04:48 PM   #41
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So what would you rather talk about? That's an honest question.
Some of the topics in flight are interesting. If I have some specific topic I want to discuss I would create a base note.
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Old 12-17-2016, 10:18 AM   #42
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I don't think a separate page would make a difference in attracting local church members. There are other reasons they stay away.
Very well then, why don't you enlighten us? We know what the Blended Brothers think of this place. They have referred to one of our members as "a man of death". I've been informed that I'm not held in much higher esteem...maybe worse. Nor worries for me though. Trust me, I have far more pressing issues to deal with. Anyway, I didn't start, nor do I maintain this forum for the Blended Brothers. It is for average Local Church member. It is for those seeking information about the movement for whatever reason. It is for brothers and sisters such as yourself who have the fortitude to come and have open communication and fellowship with your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

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First, I think anonymity is crucial and the forum provides that and you accommodated me by foregoing the usual registration process. That can be done for anyone. That might make a difference for a few.
I have tried my best to address the issues of security and anonymity over the years. The recent software upgrade was done mainly for security reasons. (Thank you all for being patient) As far as registration is concerned, I think almost everyone under 80 years old with the most minimal of Internet experiences knows that a very secure and very anonymous Gmail, Yahoo or hotmail account can be set up in minutes. It would be more likely the Russian government could find out your identity than anyone on this forum.

All this being said, your point here is a good one and well taken. You were not the only person I have made this offer to. There actually are a few others who have registered without giving an email address.

At various times over the past year or so, I have placed a module on the homepage entitled "Soapbox of the Saints". It was to be an area on the homepage where current members could come and post anything (within reason of course) in a totally anonymous way. They didn't even have to give a temporary UserName if they didn't want to. They could simply post as a guest. This module/thread received over 2,000 views. NOT ONE POST. NONE - ZIP - NADA - ZILCH. You cannot tell me that out of those thousands of page views there were not quite a number of current LC members. Why not one post? Why not one current member to come and take a free swing at us? Really? Not ONE? Why is this Drake? It CANNOT be about anonymity.


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A few might come for some reason and I came to discuss relevant things as Ohio rightly said. Yet, since most conversations pivot, sooner or later, to the sins of PL, or lawsuits, or MOTA or etc. etc. then I am finding it less and less interesting knowing that every discussion will end up in one of these same cul-de-sac sooner or later.
Fair enough observation here. Yet, have you ever taken a moment to wonder why most conversations pivot to such things? Has it ever occurred to you the kind psychological and spiritual devastation these things wreaked upon the longtime true believers of the movement? I can tell you that it is not much different than one spouse finding out that the other is cheating on them. Lot's of emotions come. Most of the time sheer unbelief and total denial. Ask any spouse, even many years later, about how they feel about this trusted person who cheated on them. I think you get the point.

Just about every thread is going to be a cul-de-sac. It's the nature of the beast of Internet forums. Most of the time we are discussing very serious issues, including some very controversial characters and situations. Rarely are we all going to come to a meeting of the minds, or anything close. Many threads end up with one or more parties storming off into cyberspace, claiming they will never come back to the forum again. Again, this is just part and parcel of the nature of Internet forums.

For anyone disinterested in any particular cul-de-sac, they are free to make a u-turn and exit at their convenience. I might suggest they start their own thread, and then if it becomes a cul-de-sac, well then, maybe it will be a cul-de-sac of their own making.

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Old 12-17-2016, 11:37 AM   #43
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UntoHim) "Yet, have you ever taken a moment to wonder why most conversations pivot to such things?"

Yes. And for those reasons that appears to be the unique purpose of this forum. That's an observation not a complaint. I'm a guest for the time being.

Yet, that and other reasons mentioned is why I believe current members will not come here even with a separate section or page.

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Old 12-17-2016, 11:54 AM   #44
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Fair enough observation here. Yet, have you ever taken a moment to wonder why most conversations pivot to such things? Has it ever occurred to you the kind psychological and spiritual devastation these things wreaked upon the longtime true believers of the movement? I can tell you that it is not much different than one spouse finding out that the other is cheating on them. Lot's of emotions come. Most of the time sheer unbelief and total denial. Ask any spouse, even many years later, about how they feel about this trusted person who cheated on them. I think you get the point.
That's an excellent analogy. Even if it happened a quarter century ago, what would be the response if you happened to tell your spouse over a nice dinner, "Sweetheart, do you remember that business trip I took back in 1989 to that Vegas conference? I never told you who I ran into ... But it's old history now. Just wanted to come clean. And we all make mistakes. Right dear?"

That's exactly the nonchalant attitude LCers take when corruption at LSM gets exposed. "Nobody's perfect, eh?" Many of us trusted Witness Lee for many years, through hell and high water, because we were led to believe that he lived a servant's life as the Apostle Paul did. Then one day we happened to learn the proverbial "rest of the story." So, it's no wonder when long-time members suddenly learn the behind-the-scenes truth, and are immediately "poisoned" as loyalists like to say.
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Old 12-17-2016, 08:02 PM   #45
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And for those reasons that appears to be the unique purpose of this forum. That's an observation not a complaint.
The unique purpose of this forum is clearly stated in the banner which is prominently displayed at the top of the homepage. "Open discussions of the Local Church Movement and the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee". If these open discussions have led us to some places that are objectionable or uncomfortable to our brothers and sisters within the Local Church movement, well I would suggest that they fire up their computer, come register and participate on the ONLY VENUE on the Internet for such open discussions. They need to stop listening to those who would tell them that their hair is going to catch on fire or a piano is going to fall on them if they come and dialog with former members. Look at you and Evangelical. To you still have your hair? Has any large musical instrument fallen on you?

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I'm a guest for the time being.
No, you're a member for the time being. I don't want you to be a guest...then I would have to treat you nice.
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Old 12-18-2016, 03:32 PM   #46
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That's an excellent analogy. Even if it happened a quarter century ago, what would be the response if you happened to tell your spouse over a nice dinner, "Sweetheart, do you remember that business trip I took back in 1989 to that Vegas conference? I never told you who I ran into ... But it's old history now. Just wanted to come clean. And we all make mistakes. Right dear?"

That's exactly the nonchalant attitude LCers take when corruption at LSM gets exposed. "Nobody's perfect, eh?" Many of us trusted Witness Lee for many years, through hell and high water, because we were led to believe that he lived a servant's life as the Apostle Paul did. Then one day we happened to learn the proverbial "rest of the story." So, it's no wonder when long-time members suddenly learn the behind-the-scenes truth, and are immediately "poisoned" as loyalists like to say.
I think you would have to add, "and oh by the way, you have noticed that there has been a lot of withdrawals from our savings account, well that was to support some children I had"
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:19 PM   #47
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Default Re: Why don't Current LC Post Here?

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Koinonia, Can you verify whether the LCM still teaches that if you leave them you are leaving God's "best" or "central move" or anything like that which puts the fear of leaving the group into them? If so, how do you feel about this attitude?
Yes, which is a lie from the pit of hell and has lead to the spiritual death of many who wish to pursue the Lord with other believers, but feel they it's hopeless.
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Old 09-04-2017, 10:30 AM   #48
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That's exactly the nonchalant attitude LCers take when corruption at LSM gets exposed. "Nobody's perfect, eh?" Many of us trusted Witness Lee for many years, through hell and high water, because we were led to believe that he lived a servant's life as the Apostle Paul did. Then one day we happened to learn the proverbial "rest of the story." So, it's no wonder when long-time members suddenly learn the behind-the-scenes truth, and are immediately "poisoned" as loyalists like to say.
Ohio, messages I've listened to online over the pas decade that's the basic them I get from blended coworkers regarding the late Witness Lee "nobody's perfect". However when it comes to the other side of the coin or as you say "the rest of the story" long time members don't want to hear it. Of course for them it's much easier to believe a lie than to be told the truth. They simply don't want to be faced with the dilemma, "I gave my Christian life for this". That's not going to happen. Can you imagine the disillusion finding out there was intentional financial mismanagement? Truth is too horrible to accept. Better to go on like an ostrich with it's head in the sand.
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Old 09-05-2017, 07:35 PM   #49
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Ohio, messages I've listened to online over the pas decade that's the basic them I get from blended coworkers regarding the late Witness Lee "nobody's perfect". However when it comes to the other side of the coin or as you say "the rest of the story" long time members don't want to hear it. Of course for them it's much easier to believe a lie than to be told the truth. They simply don't want to be faced with the dilemma, "I gave my Christian life for this". That's not going to happen. Can you imagine the disillusion finding out there was intentional financial mismanagement? Truth is too horrible to accept. Better to go on like an ostrich with it's head in the sand.
In the LC, I encountered situations multiple times where someone went so far as to acknowledge some problem or admit that a situation wasn't right, but that was the extent of concern. The next move was always to shrug it off with statements like "nobody's perfect."

It is like you say, I think a lot of people in the LC just can't imagine having to make the decision to leave the LC or get kicked out. If a situation has one of those potential 'consequences', then they will do everything they can do to ignore the situation.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:10 PM   #50
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In the LC, I encountered situations multiple times where someone went so far as to acknowledge some problem or admit that a situation wasn't right, but that was the extent of concern. The next move was always to shrug it off with statements like "nobody's perfect."

It is like you say, I think a lot of people in the LC just can't imagine having to make the decision to leave the LC or get kicked out. If a situation has one of those potential 'consequences', then they will do everything they can do to ignore the situation.
"Nobody's perfect' is the out clause from having to be accountable to one another or to explain/defend a particular position or decision.
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:44 AM   #51
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

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"Nobody's perfect' is the out clause from having to be accountable to one another or to explain/defend a particular position or decision.
Yet the "Lords recovery" of LSM is supposedly based on correcting the faults of "degraded Christianity". This is the result of the untrammeled subjectivism of Nee. The whole thing rested on the pursuit of feeling. "So subjective is my Christ in me"; so subjective that objective reality itself is set aside. And the hypocrisy of of judging all others as hopelessly deficient while shrugging and saying, "We all make mistakes" to your own.
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Old 09-06-2017, 04:52 AM   #52
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Yet the "Lords recovery" of LSM is supposedly based on correcting the faults of "degraded Christianity". This is the result of the untrammeled subjectivism of Nee. The whole thing rested on the pursuit of feeling. "So subjective is my Christ in me"; so subjective that objective reality itself is set aside. And the hypocrisy of of judging all others as hopelessly deficient while shrugging and saying, "We all make mistakes" to your own.
"The mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business," -- Titus Chu.
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Old 09-06-2017, 07:28 AM   #53
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

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"The mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business," -- Titus Chu.
Yet the mistakes of everyone else, whether real or imagined, are a constant pre-occupation. How else to distinguish the validity of ourselves except against a backdrop of (someone else's) failure?

"Lord, how I thank you that I'm not like ___________ over there. I have the Recovered Truth/High Peak Revelation/Rich Ministry/Insert Make-Believe Object Here"

Didn't Jesus comment explicitly on this? How can we say that this is God? Rather it looks like fallen humanity masquerading itself as divine will expressed. With God there is no turning. . . in this I see nothing but turning.
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:13 AM   #54
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

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Yet the mistakes of everyone else, whether real or imagined, are a constant pre-occupation. How else to distinguish the validity of ourselves except against a backdrop of (someone else's) failure?

"Lord, how I thank you that I'm not like ___________ over there. I have the Recovered Truth/High Peak Revelation/Rich Ministry/Insert Make-Believe Object Here"

Didn't Jesus comment explicitly on this? How can we say that this is God? Rather it looks like fallen humanity masquerading itself as divine will expressed. With God there is no turning. . . in this I see nothing but turning.
Obviously when they were becoming God (not in the Godhead) they made a wrong turn. To what is the question? -> obvious answer <- that doesn't even need to be mentioned.
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:13 AM   #55
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

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"The mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business," -- Titus Chu.
There was some hush-hush talk prior to Ingalls Quarantine that one of the sisters molested by Philip Lee was from the Cleveland area, yet the allegiance to a "spiritual father" superseded the allegiance of faithfulness to:
1. A sister once under their oversight (she was a volunteer molested at LSM by the LSM Manager)
2. Brothers and co-workers (John Ingalls was thrown under the bus)
3. Righteousness ("Blessed are those who suffer for righteousness sake")
4. The truth (Those who sin reprove before all, that the rest might be in fear. I Tim 5.20)
5. God Himself (those who stumble the least of His children deserve the millstone treatment)
Apparently everything was sacrificed for Witness Lee and Sons.
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Old 09-07-2017, 08:51 PM   #56
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Default Re: Why don't Local Church Members Post Here?

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Yet the mistakes of everyone else, whether real or imagined, are a constant pre-occupation. How else to distinguish the validity of ourselves except against a backdrop of (someone else's) failure?

"Lord, how I thank you that I'm not like ___________ over there. I have the Recovered Truth/High Peak Revelation/Rich Ministry/Insert Make-Believe Object Here"

Didn't Jesus comment explicitly on this? How can we say that this is God? Rather it looks like fallen humanity masquerading itself as divine will expressed. With God there is no turning. . . in this I see nothing but turning.
Those in the LCM believe that they are part of something special, and so perhaps it is somewhat understandable that they would want to 'brag' a little. Interestingly though, their continual need to contrast themselves from other groups and condemn those groups is what serves to prove that the LCM is not so special after all.
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Old 09-11-2017, 11:27 AM   #57
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Those in the LCM believe that they are part of something special, and so perhaps it is somewhat understandable that they would want to 'brag' a little. Interestingly though, their continual need to contrast themselves from other groups and condemn those groups is what serves to prove that the LCM is not so special after all.
I would say they want to believe it, but the need to make verbal distinctions between their movement and other churches is their way of reinforcement even if it contributes nothing to edification.
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