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Old 06-20-2017, 04:14 PM   #501
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Igzy, "But you can say "we are meeting as the Church in the city." That I think is okay. At least it's okay by me. But in no place does the Bible tell us that we must meet as the Church in the city nor that we cannot meet in any other way."

Igzy,

I agree. When I am asked by anybody who do I meet with I always say we don't have a name we simply meet as the church in that place. I have done that for four decades.

For the very reason you stated because our view is that every believer is a member of the church in a particular city. I do not hold the view that only those in the Lord's recovery make up the church in a particular city. I don't know of anybody who holds that view . However I also understand that not all Christians have my view. I don't objective to that either. They are still members of the local church in that city whether they meet on that basis or not.

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Old 06-20-2017, 05:19 PM   #502
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Igzy,

It does not get any more explicit than that in any language.

Drake
Yes, it does.

"To the Seven Churches in Asia which are identified with cities. And, oh, by the way for those of you who can't read between the lines: There should only be one organized church per city under one group of elders who all follow the minister of the age."

That is more explicit. But the Lord didn't get that explicit. With good reason.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:22 PM   #503
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I do not hold the view that only those in the Lord's recovery make up the church in a particular city. I don't know of anybody who holds that view.
I'll bet there are people who stand up in your meetings and declare "We are the church in <city>!" And I'll bet they are often only talking about the people who meet with the LCM. And I'll bet they get a lot of amens from people thinking the same thing.

At the very least many are likely thinking, "And the people who don't meet with us aren't experiencing being the church in the city."

Anytime I think about being the church in the city when I'm with other believers, or for that matter when I'm by myself, I experience being the church in the city. But again you don't have to meet as the church in the city to be part of the church in the city, anymore than a woman named Suzie has to call herself Mrs. Davis to be be Mrs. Davis. She can be Mrs. Davis and she can be Suzie, too. Neither precludes the other, and the same holds for Brookhollow Community Church.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:32 PM   #504
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I'm sure there are people who stand up in your meetings and declare "We are the church in <city>!" And I'm sure they are only talking about the people who meet with the LCM. And I'm sure they get a lot of amens.
I don't think I have actually.

But if they did, so what?

Why shouldn't every christian have the realization that they are the church in the city where they live and in so doing drop the things that divide them and declare to the world and the principalities and powers that they choose the oneness found only in Christ....... why not?

That is a good thing to Amen.

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Old 06-20-2017, 05:47 PM   #505
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I don't think I have actually.

But if they did, so what?

Why shouldn't every christian have the realization that they are the church in the city where they live and in so doing drop the things that divide them and declare to the world and the principalities and powers that they choose the oneness found only in Christ....... why not?

That is a good thing to Amen.

Drake
As I said, if you think of being the church in the city and your thoughts don't include every believer in the city equally, but rather favor the people in your clique, then your view of the church in the city is false and exclusive.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:19 PM   #506
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As I said, if you think of being the church in the city and your thoughts don't include every believer in the city equally, but rather favor the people in your clique, then your view of the church in the city is false and exclusive.
Being members of the church is a matter of being joined to the Lord by the Spirit through believing into Him.

Yet, please stop trying to justify the sectarian spirit operating in the church today causing each denomination to favor people in their own clique. I think if you called a spade a spade we'd find out just how much we agree on many things.

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Old 06-20-2017, 08:27 PM   #507
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Igzy) "Explicitly?" If the Lord wanted to be "explicit" he would have explicitly commanded one church per city. If the oneness of the believers in a city on the ground of locality was so important to the Lord then why didn't he just say there should be one church in each city in plain English/Aramaic/Greek? "

Igzy,

In the New Testament age it is the Spirit that speaks to the churches.

In Revelation 2 & 3 it is the Spirit speaking to the churches. Which churches? The seven churches that are identified in each city. Not thousands of churches in seven cities. Not the universal church but rather seven churches in seven cities. "The" church in a mentioned city is a definite article. It does not get any more explicit than that in any language.

Drake
Didn't the Spirit speak explicitly thru Paul? Why then no such explicit speaking in his many epistles, both public and private?

And looking from another point of view, why use such matters here to condemn the entire body of Christ, when LSM and the LC's should be doubly condemned for all of their divisive practices. You find splinters when timbers stick out of your eyesockets.
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:37 PM   #508
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For the very reason you stated because our view is that every believer is a member of the church in a particular city. I do not hold the view that only those in the Lord's recovery make up the church in a particular city.
I don't know of anybody who holds that view .
However I also understand that not all Christians have my view. I don't objective to that either. They are still members of the local church in that city whether they meet on that basis or not.

Drake
How about a little honesty here? Do you really expect any of us to believe this? I visited dozens and dozens of LC's, heard thousands of testimonies.

I heard the opposite of what you said on a regular basis. I can't know what exact views and teachings everyone holds within. I only go by what they say.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:59 AM   #509
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How about a little honesty here? Do you really expect any of us to believe this? I visited dozens and dozens of LC's, heard thousands of testimonies.

I heard the opposite of what you said on a regular basis. I can't know what exact views and teachings everyone holds within. I only go by what they say.
I haven't visited as many LSM LC's as Ohio, but I agree. I've talked with FTTA grads, the regular joe, elders, etc and have never heard LSM members describe Christian believers in the city as part of the "Church in (city)", "saints", being in the "Church life", etc.

Maybe Drake is not from the US? I haven't interacted with many international LSM members. Unfortunately we will never know because he isn't interested in sharing his locality. As I've said before, I understand his position and sympathize with him on this. A spirit of fear and confusion abound in the LSM.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:29 AM   #510
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I don't think I have actually.

But if they did, so what?

Why shouldn't every christian have the realization that they are the church in the city where they live and in so doing drop the things that divide them and declare to the world and the principalities and powers that they choose the oneness found only in Christ....... why not?

That is a good thing to Amen.

Drake
I think this is a very difficult position to be in. I have been in congregations where my children were taught that unbelievers go to hell. I believe the Bible is far more nuanced than that and do not appreciate that teaching. But it isn't the pastor teaching it from the pulpit, it is a Sunday school teacher.

I don't think I have ever been in fellowship with Christians where everyone agreed with everyone or where everyone fully comprehended the nuances and scriptural basis for the teachings.

What makes the LRC different from many other meetings is that any member can stand up and speak. We have all been in meetings where someone spoke something that was off the wall.

So then where do you draw the line?

The other issue I have with this is that most Christians that I have met do not make oneness a big issue like it is in the LRC. Redemption, forgiveness, salvation, these are generally the major topics that they focus on. So then, is it a positive thing that those in the LRC focus on the oneness of the Body? I think we all have to agree it is, otherwise why are you even discussing this on this thread? Clearly if you are on this thread you think the oneness is a big issue.

What I consider are the big issues with this teaching --

1. It denies the Lord who bought us with His blood. Any suggestion that the name of your meeting hall is a factor in the oneness is a denial of the work that Jesus did on the cross. That blood is the real "ground of oneness".

and

2. I see this doctrine as a way to create a monopoly, claim that you are the MOTA, and make merchandise of the saints. Regardless of how Dr a Ke understands this doctrine, the facts are clear. It is the basis for the claim that WN was the MOTA. It is the basis for saying WL took the mantle from WN. And, it is the basis for creating the LRC sect and giving WL a monopoly which he in turned used to make merchandise of the saints.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:37 AM   #511
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This wikipedia article "Local Church Controversies" delineates the LC positions ...

Quote:
Watchman Nee taught that the universal church, the Body of Christ, is properly expressed in local churches, that is, local assemblies consisting of all believers in their respective localities. His most comprehensive exposition of this principle can be found in The Normal Christian Church Life, although there are significant treatments of the subject in other books as well. This teaching is based on the New Testament examples of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 8:1), the church in Antioch (Acts 13:1), the church in Corinth (1 Cor. 1:2), the seven churches in seven cities in Asia (Rev. 1:11), etc. Watchman Nee and his co-workers, including Witness Lee, established local churches throughout China according to this principle.

Witness Lee continued to follow and expound this principle in his work and ministry. He pointed out that in Acts 14:23 Paul and his co-workers appointed elders in every church upon their return to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, while in Titus 1:5, Paul charged his co-worker to appoint elders in every city. This, Lee said, showed that the elders in the church equaled the elders in the city, meaning that the boundary of the church was the city. Furthermore, he noted that even though there were thousands of believers in Jerusalem, the church there was referred to in the singular and there was only one group of elders in the church.

Witness Lee was often critical of the organized system of Christianity, saying that it had deviated from the biblical revelation. He identified three inherent deficiencies in this system:
  • There are many substitutes for the living person of Christ;
  • The clergy/laity system nullifies the proper function of the believers; and
  • The divided state of the denominational/free group system is contrary to biblical injunctions to keep the oneness of the Body of Christ.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:50 AM   #512
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Why shouldn't every christian have the realization that they are the church in the city where they live and in so doing drop the things that divide them and declare to the world and the principalities and powers that they choose the oneness found only in Christ....... why not?

That is a good thing to Amen.

Drake
I agree absolutely! Whatever ministries Christians prefer, just drop the ministries and doctrines that produce division. In SBC assemblies it's Lifeway publications. For many local churches on the US west coast it's LSM publications. Just drop them and "choose the oneness found only in Christ".
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:03 PM   #513
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This wikipedia article "Local Church Controversies" delineates the LC positions ...
This, Lee said, showed that the elders in the church equaled the elders in the city, meaning that the boundary of the church was the city. Furthermore, he noted that even though there were thousands of believers in Jerusalem, the church there was referred to in the singular and there was only one group of elders in the church.

So I wonder if Drake agrees with this? Are the elders selected by Witness Lee in the church in Houston the only genuine elders in Houston?

Witness Lee was often critical of the organized system of Christianity, saying that it had deviated from the biblical revelation. He identified three inherent deficiencies in this system:
There are many substitutes for the living person of Christ;
The clergy/laity system nullifies the proper function of the believers; and
The divided state of the denominational/free group system is contrary to biblical injunctions to keep the oneness of the Body of Christ.


I feel that these criticisms of Witness Lee towards others is equally applicable to him.

1. Substitutes for the living person of Christ. -- MOTA and Ground of the Church are two examples. Jesus is the minister of the age. To say that Watchman Nee or Witness Lee is equals a substitute for the Living person of Christ. Likewise it is the living person of Christ that is the bond of peace that keeps the oneness, not WL's doctrine of the ground of the church.

2. Nullification of the proper function of the believers. -- We watched that as "living testimonies" were converted into parroting footnotes and WL's ministry.

3. The divided state of denominational system is never so clear as in the Lord's Recovery Church. It is either stated plainly or else implied that taking the Lord's table in any other Christian fellowship is akin to a sin that could kill you.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:03 PM   #514
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I think this is a very difficult position to be in. I have been in congregations where my children were taught that unbelievers go to hell. I believe the Bible is far more nuanced than that and do not appreciate that teaching. But it isn't the pastor teaching it from the pulpit, it is a Sunday school teacher.

I don't think I have ever been in fellowship with Christians where everyone agreed with everyone or where everyone fully comprehended the nuances and scriptural basis for the teachings.

What makes the LRC different from many other meetings is that any member can stand up and speak. We have all been in meetings where someone spoke something that was off the wall.

So then where do you draw the line?

The other issue I have with this is that most Christians that I have met do not make oneness a big issue like it is in the LRC. Redemption, forgiveness, salvation, these are generally the major topics that they focus on. So then, is it a positive thing that those in the LRC focus on the oneness of the Body? I think we all have to agree it is, otherwise why are you even discussing this on this thread? Clearly if you are on this thread you think the oneness is a big issue.

What I consider are the big issues with this teaching --

1. It denies the Lord who bought us with His blood. Any suggestion that the name of your meeting hall is a factor in the oneness is a denial of the work that Jesus did on the cross. That blood is the real "ground of oneness".

and

2. I see this doctrine as a way to create a monopoly, claim that you are the MOTA, and make merchandise of the saints. Regardless of how Dr a Ke understands this doctrine, the facts are clear. It is the basis for the claim that WN was the MOTA. It is the basis for saying WL took the mantle from WN. And, it is the basis for creating the LRC sect and giving WL a monopoly which he in turned used to make merchandise of the saints.
It does not deny the lord because
the blood ,life and light are necessary for oneness. Lee talks about the cycle of life light onessness in the book titled the genuine ground oneness. Nothing about names on meeting halls.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:25 PM   #515
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Being members of the church is a matter of being joined to the Lord by the Spirit through believing into Him.

Yet, please stop trying to justify the sectarian spirit operating in the church today causing each denomination to favor people in their own clique. I think if you called a spade a spade we'd find out just how much we agree on many things.

Drake
I'm not justifying a sectarian spirit. I'm saying if you were completely honest you'd realize you are as much or more sectarian than most out there.

Most Christians these days are not sectarian. They don't care about aligning themselves with some school of thought. They just want to be able to meet with people who care about Jesus. That's a fact.

And please don't continue with this self-serving drivel about names and ground and all that BS. Oneness is about ATTITUDE. It's about how you look at other BROTHERS and SISTERS and how you do not elevate DOCTRINES above your RELATIONSHIPS with them. Oneness is not about having a gotcha doctrine like locality. It's about how you really think about your brothers and sisters in Christ.

I'm not stupid, Drake. You aren't either. But please dispense with the attitude that you are more for oneness because you are in the LCM. You aren't. And I'm not more for oneness because I'm not in the LCM. The LCM is just another organization. Oneness is about what's between me and you and us and everyone else. Get it?
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:55 PM   #516
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It does not deny the lord because
the blood ,life and light are necessary for oneness. Lee talks about the cycle of life light onessness in the book titled the genuine ground oneness. Nothing about names on meeting halls.
If you investigate the situation of today's Christianity, you will learn that every division is an elevation of some kind… Bible study should not become an elevation that separates God's people from one another. The same is true regarding pray-reading… We need to ask the Lord to grant us mercy that we may not elevate anything in place of Christ. If we hold to an attitude of elevating our opinion or preference, we set up a "high place," a place of division. (The Genuine Ground of Oneness, WL, Chapter 8, Section 5)

When you refer to Watchman Nee as "The Minister of the Age" you have elevated him. Why is he the MOTA? Because he discovered the "ground of the church". The basis for elevating WN is the doctrine of the ground of the church.

This elevation separates God's people. That also is true.

The LRC has held to their opinion and preference, they have elevated WN and WL due to this preference, and as a result they have set up a high place.
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:00 PM   #517
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So I wonder if Drake agrees with this? Are the elders selected by Witness Lee in the church in Houston the only genuine elders in Houston?

Nullification of the proper function of the believers. -- We watched that as "living testimonies" were converted into parroting footnotes and WL's ministry.

The divided state of denominational system is never so clear as in the Lord's Recovery Church. It is either stated plainly or else implied that taking the Lord's table in any other Christian fellowship is akin to a sin that could kill you.
ZNP, you caught these points too. Appointment of elders in the local churches is not very transparent nor is there character guidelines for prospective elders.
It seems one basis is loyalty to Living Stream Ministry. You could be prone to be quick-tempered or married multiple times and that's okay. Truth or myth, one's families financial contribution to Living Stream could be a contributing factor also. Point is loyalty bears more weight than ones character and disposition.
I would agree ZNP. Prophesying according to Holy Word for Morning Revival and other ministry publications has nullified the body's function. What if you get light from reading Proverbs or James and have something to share? Or a nugget from a completely unrelated Christian writer such as Charles Spurgeon or RC Sproul?
The matter about the table is a subtle one. There's no words, but the contradicting actions illustrate division. Taking the table is no longer a matter of 1 Corinthians 11:27-29, but rather who are you taking the table with. If it's a denomination or a non-denominational church, abstaining from taking the table is the accepted practice. If it's another LSM-receiving local church you're visiting, it's okay to take the table.
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Old 06-22-2017, 03:49 PM   #518
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Appointment of elders in the local churches is not very transparent nor is there character guidelines for prospective elders.
I like what James says about "if you are sick call for the elders". A true elder has prayed earnestly for the church to be healed, just like Elijah.

17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

I think all of us have “like passions with Elijah”. We would like to pray that God’s fire would fall from heaven, all of God’s people would fall on their face and say “He is God” and all the false prophets would be defeated.

But that is not the reference that James gives. He talks about Elijah praying that it wouldn’t rain. Anyone can pray that “it doesn’t rain today” and no one would see that as miraculous. You could do it for a week and no one is going to care. Even if you did it for a month people would basically shrug. This indicates how Elijah was long-suffering, patient, and endured for three years and six months. Now imagine you are in the grip of a terrible drought, it hasn’t rained for two years. If someone knew you were praying for it not to rain they would hate you. This prayer would make Elijah despised. In our minds if someone is sick we want to walk in, lay hands on them, say “be healed in Jesus name” and then they stand up and take up their bed. But this is a very different image of “healing the sick” -- three and half years praying that it not rain.

Also, why would praying that it not rain “heal the sick”? If we look at the context of Elijah’s prayer we see a very interesting story. Israel was infected with Jezebel, a heathen queen. Her rule over Israel was the sickness. When Elijah prayed for fire to fall and the prophets of Baal were killed it didn’t cure Israel of Jezebel’s reign, instead she sent the army looking for Elijah. Rather it was a terrible drought for 3 1/2 years that loosened her grip on the country. At that point everyone in the entire country wants it to rain, so when Elijah demonstrates that only God has the power it showed that God has the power of life, and that this life is what really rules over Israel. This is where you learn that Elijah is the true elder and Jezebel is an evil imposter.

James is talking about the church being infected with a false prophet. In typology the prophets of Baal were involved in money. The Lord’s house is supposed to be a house of prayer and they turn it into a den of thieves. They make merchandise of the saints. James had been involved with the Judaizers, false prophets who had infected the house of God. The cure is not to pray for fire to fall from heaven, but rather that the life giving rain would be withheld by God from these ones. Elijah had to pray for three and a half years the prayer of faith for Israel to see this. His prayer of faith saved Israel and Israel was raised up.

So when James says to “pray for one another, that ye may be healed” this is the context. Someone prayed for him and he was healed. His epistle is the game plan for dealing with a cult, heresy, or any error among the church. If this is not your life then you are not "elder material".
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Old 06-22-2017, 04:07 PM   #519
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I like what James says about "if you are sick call for the elders". A true elder has prayed earnestly for the church to be healed, just like Elijah.

17Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

I think all of us have “like passions with Elijah”. We would like to pray that God’s fire would fall from heaven, all of God’s people would fall on their face and say “He is God” and all the false prophets would be defeated.

But that is not the reference that James gives. He talks about Elijah praying that it wouldn’t rain. Anyone can pray that “it doesn’t rain today” and no one would see that as miraculous. You could do it for a week and no one is going to care. Even if you did it for a month people would basically shrug. This indicates how Elijah was long-suffering, patient, and endured for three years and six months. Now imagine you are in the grip of a terrible drought, it hasn’t rained for two years. If someone knew you were praying for it not to rain they would hate you. This prayer would make Elijah despised. In our minds if someone is sick we want to walk in, lay hands on them, say “be healed in Jesus name” and then they stand up and take up their bed. But this is a very different image of “healing the sick” -- three and half years praying that it not rain.

Also, why would praying that it not rain “heal the sick”? If we look at the context of Elijah’s prayer we see a very interesting story. Israel was infected with Jezebel, a heathen queen. Her rule over Israel was the sickness. When Elijah prayed for fire to fall and the prophets of Baal were killed it didn’t cure Israel of Jezebel’s reign, instead she sent the army looking for Elijah. Rather it was a terrible drought for 3 1/2 years that loosened her grip on the country. At that point everyone in the entire country wants it to rain, so when Elijah demonstrates that only God has the power it showed that God has the power of life, and that this life is what really rules over Israel. This is where you learn that Elijah is the true elder and Jezebel is an evil imposter.

James is talking about the church being infected with a false prophet. In typology the prophets of Baal were involved in money. The Lord’s house is supposed to be a house of prayer and they turn it into a den of thieves. They make merchandise of the saints. James had been involved with the Judaizers, false prophets who had infected the house of God. The cure is not to pray for fire to fall from heaven, but rather that the life giving rain would be withheld by God from these ones. Elijah had to pray for three and a half years the prayer of faith for Israel to see this. His prayer of faith saved Israel and Israel was raised up.

So when James says to “pray for one another, that ye may be healed” this is the context. Someone prayed for him and he was healed. His epistle is the game plan for dealing with a cult, heresy, or any error among the church. If this is not your life then you are not "elder material".

Doesn't that make Elijah the "Prophet of the Age"?
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Old 06-22-2017, 05:17 PM   #520
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Doesn't that make Elijah the "Prophet of the Age"?
A type of Christ.
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:04 PM   #521
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Igzy "Most Christians these days are not sectarian. They don't care about aligning themselves with some school of thought. They just want to be able to meet with people who care about Jesus. That's a fact. "

Hi Igzy,

Denominations are a school of thought and you don't speak for most christians. The fact is, you couldn't possibly know that most Christians are not sectarian given they are divided into thousands of sects and apparently have not discarded them.

Yet, I am not obsessed about that.

If, for instance, a person holds conviction of belief about baptism and even refuses to fellowship with others because of it then there is really no issue from my side. The Lord does not force people in the age of grace. When He returns and establishes righteousness there will be no denominations.

Before the Lord we are responsible for what He has shown us. We share that with others, we try to persuade, and with unbelievers we may plead. In the end, all will be settled according to the One who judges righteously.

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Old 06-22-2017, 06:21 PM   #522
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Terry "Prophesying according to Holy Word for Morning Revival and other ministry publications has nullified the body's function. What if you get light from reading Proverbs or James and have something to share? Or a nugget from a completely unrelated Christian writer such as Charles Spurgeon or RC Sproul?"

Oh, that's easy. You share outside of the prophesying meeting. That is what I do.

I've seen the prophesying meeting happen both ways. Before HWMR and after HWMR. It is much better after. Before was a free for all. After it became more edifying because we had focus and the Lord could speak in layers. As the sharing progresses on the same topic He speaks past the obvious to the personal. More depth and more light. Even the template encourages succinct sharing allowing more time for many to share.

Far from nullifying the function of the Body the HWMR facilitates it.

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Old 06-22-2017, 07:23 PM   #523
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Igzy "Most Christians these days are not sectarian. They don't care about aligning themselves with some school of thought. They just want to be able to meet with people who care about Jesus. That's a fact. "
Denominations are a school of thought and you don't speak for most christians. The fact is, you couldn't possibly know that most Christians are not sectarian given they are divided into thousands of sects and apparently have not discarded them.

If, for instance, a person holds conviction of belief about baptism and even refuses to fellowship with others because of it then there is really no issue from my side. The Lord does not force people in the age of grace. When He returns and establishes righteousness there will be no denominations.

Before the Lord we are responsible for what He has shown us. We share that with others, we try to persuade, and with unbelievers we may plead. In the end, all will be settled according to the One who judges righteously.

Drake
Drake, we are contemporaries. I was saved in the 70's in college, spent 30 years serving in the LC's, and then left during the quarantines.

LSM, more than any denomination, is a school of thought, espoused not just by "clergy," but be every active member. Obviously when He returns, there will be no more denominations. You say this as if it is the ultimate judgment on these denominations, but neither will there be meeting halls, publishers of Lee's books, petty lawsuits, and a whole host of items specific to TLR. So why even mention it?

Your denominational paradigm is a century old, tracing back to Nee's childhood. Christianity in the 21st century has dramatically changed. Our battles as Christians have dramatically changed. Why not discard all of your exclusive baggage and focus on bringing the lost into the Light? Why does your mission statement include the condemnation of all Christianity? The time is coming soon when "us vs. them" is not "LSM vs. Christianity" but God's children vs. the armies of the beast. Do you think your training badge will help you then? Will you one day refuse a drink of water from a "degraded" brother who does not attend your "feasts?"

Brother Drake, I was raised Catholic and lived in unsaved darkness in the world, then saved dynamically outside the LC, then served 3 decades within the LC's, and now I'm meeting outside the LC's. Every time you (or another LC insider) mention how the things of Christianity will fare at the judgment seat of Christ, I just shake my head. You don't get it. You got just as much baggage or more to get freed from.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:27 PM   #524
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Denominations are a school of thought and you don't speak for most christians. The fact is, you couldn't possibly know that most Christians are not sectarian given they are divided into thousands of sects and apparently have not discarded them.
I agree with Igzy. I've been fortunate to fellowship with Christians across over a dozen countries in atleast as many "denominations". I've never seen such division until being a part of the LSM. I share this as a personal testimony to the work of Christ and His Church, and to warn others of the LSM and their division.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:33 PM   #525
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Denominations are a school of thought and you don't speak for most christians. The fact is, you couldn't possibly know that most Christians are not sectarian given they are divided into thousands of sects and apparently have not discarded them.
I am afraid this is exactly what Witness Lee did and many members of the LC are doing - They couldn't possibly know about the most Christians but yet they frequently claim most Christians only have shallow understanding of God's truth, just in order to make the point that the Lord's Recovery is better.

This is the real situation that many members of this forum have pointed out but somehow not all LC members are willing to accept and reflect.

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Oh, that's easy. You share outside of the prophesying meeting. That is what I do.
How often do you or others really read and share messages / books / sermons not from the LC?

I don't know about others but in my locality, almost every meeting is conducted around WL's messages - prophesying meetings, home meetings, morning revivals, fellowship meetings between serving ones, and even prayer meetings.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:48 PM   #526
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I've never seen such division until being a part of the LSM.
Leastofthese,

You've never. Ok. You've convinced me.

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Old 06-22-2017, 07:57 PM   #527
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Leastofthese,

You've never. Ok. You've convinced me.

Thanks
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Just sharing a personal testimony. I'm no Witness Lee, I don't need to convince you that my way is the one and only truth.

Drake. Pray.
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:02 PM   #528
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I am afraid this is exactly what Witness Lee did and many members of the LC are doing - They couldn't possibly know about the most Christians but yet they frequently claim most Christians only have shallow understanding of God's truth, just in order to make the point that the Lord's Recovery is better.

This is the real situation that many members of this forum have pointed out but somehow not all LC members are willing to accept and reflect.
Of course those in the Local churches believe it is a better way! If they didn't why should they stay? Follow your convictions before the Lord.

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How often do you or others really read and share messages / books / sermons not from the LC?

I don't know about others but in my locality, almost every meeting is conducted around WL's messages - prophesying meetings, home meetings, morning revivals, fellowship meetings between serving ones, and even prayer meetings.
Sure. Do you have a favorite restaurant? There you go.

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Old 06-22-2017, 08:09 PM   #529
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Just sharing a personal testimony. I'm no Witness Lee, I don't need to convince you that my way is the one and only truth.

Drake. Pray.
Pray without ceasing leastofthese. You know every time I pray He comes as a rich supply and enlightens yet more. Strengthens my resolve. You respect that don't you?

You bring up an interesting misunderstanding. I was blown away by this vision before I ever heard of Witness Lee. He didn't need to convince me.

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Old 06-22-2017, 08:24 PM   #530
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Of course those in the Local churches believe it is a better way! If they didn't why should they stay? Follow your convictions before the Lord.
So your way of being better is through false testimony accusing other believers are worse? What kind of recovery truth is this?

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Sure. Do you have a favorite restaurant? There you go.
Don't understand why you talked about restaurant. Is this how you view the church?
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Old 06-22-2017, 08:53 PM   #531
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So your way of being better is through false testimony accusing other believers are worse? What kind of recovery truth is this?


Don't understand why you talked about restaurant. Is this how you view the church?
What? Who said other believers are worse? No one said that nor implied it. You're exaggerating.

What we were discussing is whether those in the local churches believe that is a better way. Of course they do. If they did not believe in their mission they should go before the Lord and pursue one that they believe in and/or where the food is healthy and nourishing.

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Old 06-22-2017, 09:23 PM   #532
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What? Who said other believers are worse? No one said that nor implied it. You're exaggerating.

What we were discussing is whether those in the local churches believe that is a better way. Of course they do. If they did not believe in their mission they should go before the Lord and pursue one that they believe in and/or where the food is healthy and nourishing.
You can keep on denying. I don't expect a real change of mind can come anytime soon. (I hope God will surprise me though)

I was not discusssing whether those in the local churches believe that is a better way (of course they do). I was discussing their wrong way of justifying their "betterness" by false testimony.

I believe God's people don't follow the Lord only to enjoy healthy and nourishing food. They are also commissioned to serve Him even though the situation can be difficult.
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:28 PM   #533
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Don't understand why you talked about restaurant. Is this how you view the church?
Just Google "how to choose a church":

https://www.beknownforsomething.com/...-a-restaurant/

http://www.kathyhoward.org/the-churc...ll-food-court/

It's definitely how denominational people view the church - the church is a mall food court where you can choose what you want to eat. If denominations are the food court I guess that makes the Recovery "fine dining".
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Old 06-22-2017, 09:53 PM   #534
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Just Google "how to choose a church":

https://www.beknownforsomething.com/...-a-restaurant/

http://www.kathyhoward.org/the-churc...ll-food-court/

It's definitely how denominational people view the church - the church is a mall food court where you can choose what you want to eat. If denominations are the food court I guess that makes the Recovery "fine dining".
Thanks for the links. Looks like Drake shares the same "denominational people's view" by bringing up this concept.
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Old 06-22-2017, 10:02 PM   #535
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You can keep on denying. I don't expect a real change of mind can come anytime soon. (I hope God will surprise me though).
I think I understand what you are saying. Let me check with you....You are saying that God is on your side because your thinking is right and mine is not and mine won't change anytime soon because I am stuck in denial?

Is that what you are saying, "a little brother"?

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I was not discusssing whether those in the local churches believe that is a better way (of course they do). I was discussing their wrong way of justifying their "betterness" by false testimony.
By stating it the way you do, you are casting the argument as a value statement of one believer over another. And you also accuse the believers in the local churches of being liars in promoting it.

Both are inaccurate. First, no brother or sister that I have ever met in the Lords Recovery thinks they are better than believers not in the Lords Recovery. I certainly don't. I can't think of a single one out of thousands. On the contrary, I have known and know some stellar christians outside of the Lord Recovery. I think some in this forum are probably like that too.

Secondly, the way is a matter of the truth. There are many ways and we need to distinguish them. For instance, the Lord said there is a way of destruction compared to a narrow way. Paul said he showed us a more excellent way. Therefore, we need to assess our way. If we feel before the Lord that our way is right we should not shy away from it by falsely and foolishly embracing every way. That is why I said to follow your conviction before the Lord, it's not about pride, it's about conviction of belief. It is not falsehood to present the scriptural justification for your conviction of the way. If you have no conviction about the way then you should pray earnestly to find it. If you think every way is fine then... well, got nothing for you.

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I believe God's people don't follow the Lord only to enjoy healthy and nourishing food. They are also commissioned to serve Him even though the situation can be difficult.
Certainly. I agree. Yet, we get through difficult times by the life supply from the Lord as the Life-giving Spirit. The Lord said, he who eats Me shall live because of Me. He is the food we need to serve Him.

Drake
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:54 PM   #536
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I think I understand what you are saying. Let me check with you....You are saying that God is on your side because your thinking is right and mine is not and mine won't change anytime soon because I am stuck in denial?

Is that what you are saying, "a little brother"?

By stating it the way you do, you are casting the argument as a value statement of one believer over another. And you also accuse the believers in the local churches of being liars in promoting it.
Not exactly. I don't think God needs to be on anyone's side. Using your words, I am just following my conviction before the Lord.

And whatever your conviction is, I don't think you should deny the plain fact that LC members do often criticize Christianity to contrast the excellence of the Lords Recovery. In fact, most of them only had very limited fellowship with other Christians. And you will see the double standard here because they seldom criticize saints with similar issues in the local churches.

I don't accuse most of the members for doing this because they are just following the general atmosphere of the church. But I do blame the leaders for tolerating if not creating this.

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Both are inaccurate. First, no brother or sister that I have ever met in the Lords Recovery thinks they are better than believers not in the Lords Recovery. I certainly don't. I can't think of a single one out of thousands. On the contrary, I have known and know some stellar christians outside of the Lord Recovery. I think some in this forum are probably like that too.
Let me try to name one - Witness Lee.

I can't keep track of how many times he criticized the "shallowness" of Christianity. So I just did a quick search on the Internet to find the following quote.

Ch 13, The Practice of the Church Life according to the God-ordained Way: "Although those in Christianity preach Christ and teach people concerning Christ, they do so in a very shallow way. They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ. "

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Therefore, we need to assess our way. If we feel before the Lord that our way is right we should not shy away from it by falsely and foolishly embracing every way. That is why I said to follow your conviction before the Lord, it's not about pride, it's about conviction of belief. It is not falsehood to present the scriptural justification for your conviction of the way.
I am ok with it as long as people don't start to put up "scriptural justification" to claim there is only one way, one ministry of the age and bash all others.
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:15 AM   #537
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Pray without ceasing leastofthese. You know every time I pray He comes as a rich supply and enlightens yet more. Strengthens my resolve. You respect that don't you?

You bring up an interesting misunderstanding. I was blown away by this vision before I ever heard of Witness Lee. He didn't need to convince me.

Drake
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:28 AM   #538
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A little brother)"Ch 13, The Practice of the Church Life according to the God-ordained Way: "Although those in Christianity preach Christ and teach people concerning Christ, they do so in a very shallow way. They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ. "

And yet it is true.

Let's examine the largest denomination in the USA, the American Baptist Church.

We all would agree that they teach the Lordship of Christ and eternal salvation through His work on the cross. They also follow His command to baptize converts. Billy Graham, clearly a gift to the Body, an Evangelist, is the best representation of this group. I was "raised" Baptist and my grandfather was an ordained Baptist minister. Most of my family are of this persuasion and many of them are some of the best people you will ever meet anywhere. They love God, given to hospitality, generous, and they hold the conviction of their beliefs in the Bible. (There are a few rascals but we will leave that discussion another time). They also host the the best pot lucks on the planet.

But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body. That was the context of the reference you cited. (You should have explained that when you quoted it to be accurate in your critique.)

Drake
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:29 AM   #539
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You bring up an interesting misunderstanding. I was blown away by this vision before I ever heard of Witness Lee. He didn't need to convince me.
What vision are you speaking of Drake?
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:51 AM   #540
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A little brother)"Ch 13, The Practice of the Church Life according to the God-ordained Way: "Although those in Christianity preach Christ and teach people concerning Christ, they do so in a very shallow way. They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ. "

And yet it is true.

Let's examine the largest denomination in the USA, the American Baptist Church.

We all would agree that they teach the Lordship of Christ and eternal salvation through His work on the cross. They also follow His command to baptize converts. Billy Graham, clearly a gift to the Body, an Evangelist, is the best representation of this group. I was "raised" Baptist and my grandfather was an ordained Baptist minister. Most of my family are of this persuasion and many of them are some of the best people you will ever meet anywhere. They love God, given to hospitality, generous, and they hold the conviction of their beliefs in the Bible. (There are a few rascals but we will leave that discussion another time). They also host the the best pot lucks on the planet.

But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body. That was the context of the reference you cited. (You should have explained that when you quoted it to be accurate in your critique.)

Drake
So now you being in the Lord's Recovery think it is better than believers not in the Lord's Recovery? I thought you said you couldn't think of a single one out of thousands.
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:45 AM   #541
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But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body. That was the context of the reference you cited. (You should have explained that when you quoted it to be accurate in your critique.)

Drake
Drake, I lived thru the quarantines a decade ago (which discussion, btw, you dodge every chance you get) and watched LSM carry out its so-called "teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ." Let's cut through the rhetoric, and talk for a minute about how this "teaching and practice" really works.

Since WL has passed on, TLR now has a few Blended MOTA's (BP, RK, MC, etc.) sitting in their nice LaPalma offices deciding who and what is good for the "building up." Then they plot their perfect "body." They decide a number of the internal organs, bones, muscles, brain parts, and extremities in the body of Christ in the GLA are no longer necessary. They hold a public Kangaroo Court in Whistler to plan out their "surgeries." They publish lengthy and extensive articles in "approved" medical journals, like afaithfulworddotcom. They send in numerous legal operatives from DCP into the "Recovery" room to patch up the remaining pieces of their "body," filing lawsuits to recoup their exorbitant expenses. What's left is kept on the life support system of HWFMRs. Then a "finger" from the GLA comes to your "Feast" in Anaheim, and the crowd erupts with joy over the one finger who survived your mutilations.

Next you move on to Brazil for more "surgery." What did Apostle Paul say? "Beware of the dogs, Beware of the evil workers, Beware of the concision."
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:21 AM   #542
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So now you being in the Lord's Recovery think it is better than believers not in the Lord's Recovery? I thought you said you couldn't think of a single one out of thousands.
No. I think the way of the Lords Recovery is better because it has a better chance of building the Body of Christ. I do not believe the way of the denominations can practically accomplish that mission.

Has nothing to do with " better than believers".
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:28 AM   #543
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No. I think the way of the Lords Recovery is better because it has a better chance of building the Body of Christ. Has nothing to do with " better than believers".
WL said they do not have and you said they can't have the reality of the Body of Christ, and by saying so, implied the believers in the Lord's Recovery can. Doesn't that mean believers in Lord's Recovery are better?
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Old 06-23-2017, 07:36 AM   #544
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Drake, I lived thru the quarantines a decade ago (which discussion, btw, you dodge every chance you get) and watched LSM carry out its so-called "teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ." Let's cut through the rhetoric, and talk for a minute about how this "teaching and practice" really works.

Since WL has passed on, TLR now has a few Blended MOTA's (BP, RK, MC, etc.) sitting in their nice LaPalma offices deciding who and what is good for the "building up." Then they plot their perfect "body." They decide a number of the internal organs, bones, muscles, brain parts, and extremities in the body of Christ in the GLA are no longer necessary. They hold a public Kangaroo Court in Whistler to plan out their "surgeries." They publish lengthy and extensive articles in "approved" medical journals, like afaithfulworddotcom. They send in numerous legal operatives from DCP into the "Recovery" room to patch up the remaining pieces of their "body," filing lawsuits to recoup their exorbitant expenses. What's left is kept on the life support system of HWFMRs. Then a "finger" from the GLA comes to your "Feast" in Anaheim, and the crowd erupts with joy over the one finger who survived your mutilations.

Next you move on to Brazil for more "surgery." What did Apostle Paul say? "Beware of the dogs, Beware of the evil workers, Beware of the concision."
Ohio,

And there's what Jesus said! In Matt. 16:18 he said "I will build my church."

Really? Does he really mean that? Or, does he needs help? Is he up to the task? After all, he is GOD. Do you think Jesus secretly uses the "LSM Teaching and Practice Administrators Guide to Church Building"?

And what do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 18:6 when he said "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

I've noticed that "obedience" is a big thing in the Bible. Do you think it would help if we obeyed God rather than men with millstones around their necks?

I know you know the answers to my questions.

Nell
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Old 06-23-2017, 08:40 AM   #545
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WL said they do not have and you said they can't have the reality of the Body of Christ, and by saying so, implied the believers in the Lord's Recovery can. Doesn't that mean believers in Lord's Recovery are better?
No. I also believe that the American way of democracy is better than other ways of government. That does not mean that Americans are better than others.

To be precise, I said the way of the Lords Recovery has a better chance of being able to build the Body of Christ......but there is no guarantee. We just need to be faithful to what the Lord has shown us.

By analogy, the 6M Jews who became members of the nation of Israel, living in the good land, building homes, keeping rifles handy, growing crops, having babies, have a much better chance of accomplishing the mission of the Israel than 17M Jews living in New York or other places. That does not mean that the 6M Jews are better than other Jews. That of course is a modern day account of what happened in the Old Testament. History repeats itself.

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Old 06-23-2017, 10:08 AM   #546
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Igzy "Most Christians these days are not sectarian. They don't care about aligning themselves with some school of thought. They just want to be able to meet with people who care about Jesus. That's a fact. "

Hi Igzy,

Denominations are a school of thought and you don't speak for most christians. The fact is, you couldn't possibly know that most Christians are not sectarian given they are divided into thousands of sects and apparently have not discarded them.

Yet, I am not obsessed about that.

If, for instance, a person holds conviction of belief about baptism and even refuses to fellowship with others because of it then there is really no issue from my side. The Lord does not force people in the age of grace. When He returns and establishes righteousness there will be no denominations.

Before the Lord we are responsible for what He has shown us. We share that with others, we try to persuade, and with unbelievers we may plead. In the end, all will be settled according to the One who judges righteously.

Drake
You are obligated to preach your vision, as are we all. But you are also obligated, in doing so, to honestly address all rational and reasonable questions about your vision--and I don't think you do that. I think when you come up against an argument you can't handle you just brush it aside. In short I don't think you are being completely honest. This is pretty typical of what I see from LCMers.

(By the way, this probably why you guys can't grow your numbers much, because only a fringe of people are going to turn their lives over to a belief system which (1) requires so much of them and (2) can't stand up to scrutiny.)

How do we arrive at the truth? I believe the truth must be able to hold up to some intellectual scrutiny. But as far as I can tell you are avoiding discussions you can't answer, or else mischaracterizing them to brush them aside.

Take your above comment for example. Yes a denomination is a school of thought, but most denominations as far as I can tell are generalizing to the unity of the faith. People might be attracted to some doctrines, but most people I talk to go to churches where they feel they get the Lord's blessing and presence. The school of thought is secondary.

So your response was either disingenuous or befuddled because you brushed aside my actual point with an irrelevancy.

Also you are the one who implied that people in denominations have a "sectarian spirit," But then when I said they generally don't, you said I could not know that. But how could you know? Because the same limitation would apply to you. How can you know there is a "sectarian spirit" if I can't know there isn't?

(Even so, I'm pretty sure my knowledge of actual state of Christianity is more accurate than yours, because everything I've experienced and seen the LCM view is quite biased and ignorant. )

So yes, you need to defend your vision. But you also need to be honest enough with yourself to see the holes in you vision. And for my money I don't see you doing that. I see weak arguments based on fuzzy premises. I see contradictions. I even see hypocrisies. For one I see the LCM as much or more sectarian that most. Just because you stand on the "ground" and claim to be for "oneness" doesn't put you in the clear. The Pharisees stood on Moses and the Law, but we know what Jesus thought of them. You might be okay according to the letter of your law, but certainly not according the spirit. The Lord of the Sabbath can see through that kind of stuff.

I'm seeking truth. But I'm not buying your version unless you can do better. You might begin by being more honest about the holes in your argument and the questionable history of your movement.
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:26 AM   #547
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To be precise, I said the way of the Lords Recovery has a better chance of being able to build the Body of Christ......but there is no guarantee. We just need to be faithful to what the Lord has shown us.
Israel also had a "better chance" of building the kingdom of God on earth. They had the Patriarchs, the Law, the Covenants, the Temple with His glory, the Priesthood, the Promises of God, the chosen Promised Land, etc., yet they were hardened, disobedient, and unbelieving.

Those in the Recovery claim to have so much from God -- unique spiritual blessings which they claim others do not possess. They boast of the proper church stand, the oneness of the body, and all the riches of the Word recovered by Nee and Lee. Yet, like Israel and Laodicea, they have become proud, blind, lukewarm, naked and arrogant. They sue and quarantine the prophets God sends to them. They remain a closed, insular, stagnant sect, much like the Exclusive Brethren they are modeled after, and are sheltered by concrete reinforced strongholds which neither God nor man can penetrate.
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:36 AM   #548
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But concerning Christ, where will you find the teaching or practice of building up the Body of Christ? Let's give credit where credit is due. They teach Christ the Head, His Lordship, His salvation yet, they do not teach Christ the Body, its building up, nor are they organized to allow the members of the Body to function in mutual building. Therefore, how can they have the reality of the Body of Christ? In this aspect, they are shallow in their teaching of Christ. Specifically, Christ the Body.
Again you don't know what you are talking about. And again you are engaging in a circular argument. You are claiming that the only way to have the building of the Body of Christ is to have your proprietary teaching about it.

In the first place, the building of the Body is taught in churches today, it's just not taught in the terms you prefer. But the essence and reality of the idea is there. Churches teach community, fellowship, small groups, mutual support, praying together, serving together, all in the Spirit. So if they practice those things the Body is going to get built and I've seen it built that way.

You don't need to have a PhD in Witness Lee's theology to have the building of the Body of Christ. That's like saying you need to have PhD in the inner life to experience it. And some of the most spiritual people ever never heard of most of the things Lee taught about the inner life. And in fact in my experience much of the things he taught both about life and building just get in the way, because they produce a mindset like yours which believes all these WL ducks need to be a row for life and building to happen, which is a prescription for mistaking following WL for actually having them, i.e. mistaking knowledge for reality.

For my money his teaching hasn't produced that much building anyway. Seems to have built a fringe sect. I like the building I see elsewhere better, thanks very much.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:28 AM   #549
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Igzy) "Also you are the one who implied that people in denominations have a "sectarian spirit," But then when I said they generally don't, you said I could not know that. But how could you know? Because the same limitation would apply to you. How can you know there is a "sectarian spirit" if I can't know there isn't?"

Igzy,

First, I see no reason to engage in rock fetches. For instance, you want to make this about people as if that were the point. It is not and seldom is. You recast the arguments in terms of people and personalities and you also make it personal with me. I understand that my very presence on this forum annoys you but it is best to address my argument and refrain from suggesting I am lying if you want to discuss a topic and especially if you want to dive into a topic more thoroughly. However, as soon as you began crafting ad hominem arguments like "liar, liar, pants on fire" I lose interest pretty quickly. You may think that is avoiding the argument but my view is that is avoiding an irrelevant argument.

Now, how can I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the church? Simple, open the phone book! You don't need a PHD for that either.

And it is a fallacy of argumentation on your part because you cannot possibly know what the majority of christians are thinking. And I don't claim to know what the majority of christians are thinking either. I just look at the obvious ... thousands of denominations and surmise that a sectarian spirit must be operating in the church.

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Old 06-23-2017, 12:41 PM   #550
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Now, how can I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the church? Simple, open the phone book! You don't need a PHD for that either.
That's right Drake, but like the scribes and lawyers of Jesus' day, a PHD may keep you from seeing the obvious right in front of you.

How do I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the local church? I watched their behaviors, attitudes, teachings, and practices for the past 40 years. I have never seen such vicious, political rancor as that which was exhibited by leaders in Anaheim.

They condemn others for exactly the same things they do. That's why you avoid all questions about your own sordid history, and keep your weapons aimed at others.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:16 PM   #551
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First, I see no reason to engage in rock fetches. For instance, you want to make this about people as if that were the point. It is not and seldom is. You recast the arguments in terms of people and personalities and you also make it personal with me.
I didn't make it personal. I just asked you to defend your point of view with better arguments. Did you ever think that the reason people don't go for the LCM is not because of their lack of purity but because of a lack of good arguments for it?

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Now, how can I know that a sectarian spirit is operating in the church? Simple, open the phone book!
Again, you have defined this situation as sectarian. But it is not necessarily so. That's what I mean by a circular argument.

Sectarianism is not people meeting in multiple places and having multiple names. Sectarianism is some people saying that everyone should be like them and refusing to respect others' rights to believe and meet as they see fit as per Romans 12.

Sectarianism is not people living in different houses and having different names. Sectarianism is any of those families saying they are the only valid family.

I've never seen a time in my life when so many different kinds of Christians can come together and meet together and not make issues about secondary doctrines. That is the way I see the situation going more and more these days. And guess what? I see the hand of God in it too. Why can't you be happy about that?

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And it is a fallacy of argumentation on your part because you cannot possibly know what the majority of christians are thinking.
If you can claim sectarianism (as defined by you admittedly) exists simply by a look in the phone book (you are showing your age there BTW ), then I can certainly make an assessment about non-sectarianism by my more varied, direct and personal observations. I read. I observe. I visit other churches. I talk to many other Christians. I think my assessment of things is reliable enough.

The fact is, Drake, we are never going to see a situation where all or even a majority of Christians in cities come under one group of elders wielding the kind of control the LCM does. It just isn't going to happen. (And personally I don't think that is what God expects or even wants.) So what are you going to do? Continue to find fault with them? Continue to see the glass half-empty. I just don't see the point of that. It's making the good the enemy of the (in your opinion) best.

And you hurt people by sending the message that if they aren't in the LCM they are somehow not right with God. You need to drop that. That's always been my point.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:43 PM   #552
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To be precise, I said the way of the Lords Recovery has a better chance of being able to build the Body of Christ......but there is no guarantee. We just need to be faithful to what the Lord has shown us.
Might I suggest taking some time check if the Lord actually showed you this. How much have you actually prayed asking what God wants and how he wants to do it?

If I recall when I was in the LCM I thought God showed me a lot of things I never bothered to pray about. I recall just accepting everything without question, because questioning Witness Lee was sold as the root of all evil.

Did I ever tell you about the LCM guy I once asked to pray for six weeks about whether his LCM views were accurate? Seems like a reasonable and harmless suggestion, right? How could that go wrong?

Yep... you guessed it... he said he didn't need to pray.
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Old 06-23-2017, 06:02 PM   #553
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You bring up an interesting misunderstanding. I was blown away by this vision before I ever heard of Witness Lee. He didn't need to convince me.
What vision are you speaking of Drake?

I know you are busy and all....but I for one am EXTREMELY interested in this "vision" that you were blown away by "before I ever heard of Witness Lee". This is NOT a "gotctha question" (unless you turn it into one). Please do not deprive us of this most important vision. I would like to know something about this "vision" you speak of. Surely it is very related to "The Unique Move of God".

The ball is now in your court my brother. You've never disappointed in the past...don't start now.

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Old 06-23-2017, 10:14 PM   #554
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What vision are you speaking of Drake?

I know you are busy and all....but I for one am EXTREMELY interested in this "vision" that you were blown away by "before I ever heard of Witness Lee". This is NOT a "gotctha question" (unless you turn it into one). Please do not deprive us of this most important vision. I would like to know something about this "vision" you speak of. Surely it is very related to "The Unique Move of God".

The ball is now in your court my brother. You've never disappointed in the past...don't start now.

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UntoHim, I was going to respond to your note this weekend with a comprehensive answer and I had been before the Lord since you asked it.

But i am sensing some sarcasm and perhaps a taste of badgering? Under those circumstances I am not inclined to share something that is deeply personal and a treasure to me in my spiritual life. Vision is not a doctrine, rather, it is a visitation, at least it was to me.

Still, I will share an abbreviated version of the vision that captured me and how it came about. It is personal and may hold no real interest to you or others.

Starting here.... I held leadership roles in a denomination and had a life changing experience there. Then in His care and shepherding and arrangements He enlightenment me concerning the Church as the local expression of His Body and the need for the unity of the believers in a city. Then later, He showed me the position of the church universal seated with Christ in the heavenlies. I do not mean I only read it and decided it was right, I saw it as real as if I had looked at the moon. I further understood that it was the only way to defeat God's enemy. I was captured by this visitation/vision of the universal Body and the Body local on earth.

Still had not heard the name Witness Lee.

Then I started to attend some meetings of the local church but just part time. Yet, here I began to experience life and care and shepherding in the Body and I started to see the Body life could be experienced in a real and living way in my daily life. I then understood the meaning, significance, and profoundness of grace upon grace. For the better part of a year I met with the local churches part time as I was very engaged in the denomination i was a leader in. With one foot in each world I was able to compare firsthand the difference.

Still had not heard the name Witness Lee.

Then I was going to be in a certain city for personal reasons and the elder mentioned I might like to attend a conference being held at that time in that city. He said, Brother Witness Lee would be speaking. I said "who is that?" He said, a coworker of Watchman Nee. I knew of Watchman Nee. So at that conference I saw the Spirit poured out on the Body and the function of "each one has" that facilitated the building up. It became apparent to me that God chooses the weak, the imperfect, and the simple to accomplish the building of the Body. Old and young, rich and poor, university teachers and students, electricians and plumbers, different races, many people from all walks of human life came together and did what normally only pastors and teachers did. I also had a few minutes of fellowship with Brother Lee face to face and found him to be gracious, caring, and normal.

That was the last piece of the mosaic of the vision of the Body of Christ. At that point I was "turned and burned" . You know the phrase well I am certain. That was over 40 years ago and the vision has kept me ever since.

In summary, It was a 4 fold vision of the Body the Lord revealed to me in a variety of ways over a few years. First, through a minister I came to understand the Body is local and the need for unity in the Body in a city. Though a leader in a denomiation i knew there was something more. Second, the Body is universal and here I received a personal and intimate visitation from the Lord and from that saw the Body universal. Third, I experienced the Body Christ and care and shepherding in my daily life. Fourth, i saw the pouring out of the Spirit and realized the primary purpose was to bring in the function for building the Body and to defaet God's enemy. Only near the end of this last part did I met Brother Lee.

A vision of the Body local, universal, personal, and functional. By the time I began to read and listen to Brother Lee's ministry i needed no convincing. It just affirmed the vision that Lord had already revealed to me.

Thanks for listening.

Drake
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Old 06-24-2017, 06:26 AM   #555
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In summary, It was a 4 fold vision of the Body the Lord revealed to me in a variety of ways over a few years. First, through a minister I came to understand the Body is local and the need for unity in the Body in a city. Though a leader in a denomiation i knew there was something more. Second, the Body is universal and here I received a personal and intimate visitation from the Lord and from that saw the Body universal. Third, I experienced the Body Christ and care and shepherding in my daily life. Fourth, i saw the pouring out of the Spirit and realized the primary purpose was to bring in the function for building the Body and to defaet God's enemy. Only near the end of this last part did I met Brother Lee.
Drake,

Thank you for sharing. There isn't anything above that I disagree with.

The issue with me and the LCM has never been much about the general vision. It has always been about how that vision is interpreted and turned into attitudes and practices.

This really comes into play in the "practical unity" part of your vision. It seems to me the LCM version of unity is set up in such a way so that only the LCM can fulfill it. So, ironically, their "unity" became a kind of sectarianism. This is proven by the fact that there are a lot of groups that meet as the church in the city but which have no association with the LSM. And in every case as far as I know the LCM churches disregard them and do not attempt to fellowship with them.

The LCM has defined "names" and "locality" as the central determiners of whether a group observes proper unity. But the Bible never makes that clear. However, the Bible does make clear that overly insisting on one minister or ministry can and does result in sectarianism (1 Cor 3). Yet, the LCM acts oblivious to this, and thus attempts to enforce all the little details Witness Lee/LSM taught, which is the root of all the dysfunction the group has spread.

There is nothing wrong with unity as a general concept. Where the LCM has gone wrong is to insist unity must be expressed according to specific proprietary details--which in fact is not unity but conformity. In the meantime, they discount all other expressions of unity as inadequate.

I simply do not see how this will ever result in more unity or building, the very thing you claim to want. So you must be hoping everyone eventually joins the LCM. But that isn't going to happen. Sixty years of track record has made that clear.

The reason people aren't joining the LCM is not because of the general vision you shared. It's because of the way that general vision has been lost and distorted in the translation into actual attitudes and practices.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:59 AM   #556
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So, to summarize:

LCM methods are not designed to embrace true generality, since the LCM insists on too many proprietary details in belief and practice which map back to Witness Lee and his personal preferences.

Therefore, the LCM is not interested in general unity among Christians, they are interested in a "unity" which conforms to their particular beliefs, practices, structure, view and leadership--that is, conformity.

Therefore, the LCM is really only interested in all Christians joining them.

Therefore, since the above is never going to come close to happening, the LCM is chasing a vain pursuit.

Therefore, they content themselves with the belief that they are the only ones doing things right, and categorically ignore or discount everything God is doing outside their walls, which is the vast majority of what God is doing. They know this in their hearts, but cannot reconcile it with their "vision." However, rather than opening to God for more clarity, they simply stay the course because questioning Witness Lee is not an option.

Therefore, they are living in denial. Unfortunately, this mindset not only hurts them, it potentially hurts everyone they come in contact with.

Therefore, they should repent.
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Old 06-25-2017, 08:16 AM   #557
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What does the acronym "LCM" stand for?
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Old 06-25-2017, 08:47 AM   #558
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Local Church Movement.

Different people use different acronyms. Sometimes it gets confusing to me, and I've been reading these forums for many years. I've thought about trying to encourage some conformity, but I pretty much gave up on that.

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Old 06-25-2017, 08:50 AM   #559
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But i am sensing some sarcasm and perhaps a taste of badgering?
My friend I have neither the time nor the heart to be badgering anybody. Sorry if you got that impression. If I sound sarcastic at times, it’s only because of my 40+ years of personal experience and close observation of the persons, places and things that are discussed here on our little popcorn stand. I’m naturally inclined to sarcasm…God is not through with me yet…as the bumper sticker says.

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Under those circumstances I am not inclined to share something that is deeply personal and a treasure to me in my spiritual life. Vision is not a doctrine, rather, it is a visitation, at least it was to me. Still, I will share an abbreviated version of the vision that captured me and how it came about. It is personal and may hold no real interest to you or others.
Speaking for myself, anything to do with a genuine vision and/or visitation from God is extremely interesting and important to me. No sarcasm here bro. When God talks I listen…whether it be through a bolt of lightning….or through another member of the Body of Christ. The key is – is it genuine. Your little testimony here has me convinced that your vision/visitation is absolutely genuine. I know this for a fact because I have longed for these things my entire Christian life. Some things were fulfilled in the ministry of Witness Lee and in the Local Churches, some were not. Some have been fulfilled at other places. Some have not. I am convinced that some more will be fulfilled before I breath my last…some will not. Such are the life and times of a sojourner whose citizenship is in heaven, and whose hopes and desires will never be totally fulfilled here on earth.

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Then I started to attend some meetings of the local church but just part time. Yet, here I began to experience life and care and shepherding in the Body and I started to see the Body life could be experienced in a real and living way in my daily life. I then understood the meaning, significance, and profoundness of grace upon grace. For the better part of a year I met with the local churches part time as I was very engaged in the denomination i was a leader in. With one foot in each world I was able to compare firsthand the difference.
Still had not heard the name Witness Lee.
Drake, this is where your testimony comes off the rails. Are you actually telling us that you attended meetings of the Local Church (albeit “just part time”) for about a year and never heard the name Witness Lee? Surely this is a typo. Lee’s name is everywhere you look. Local Church meetings are based on the spoken ministry of Witness Lee. The footnotes in the Recovery Version…did you think those were from John MacArthur? I think in a sincere, but misguided, attempt to give our readers the impression that Lee had nothing to do with your original visions and visitations, and Lee’s ministry simply confirmed them, you misspoke in a major way. Maybe you would care to take a mulligan on this one?
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Old 06-25-2017, 10:31 AM   #560
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UntoHim) "Drake, this is where your testimony comes off the rails. Are you actually telling us that you attended meetings of the Local Church (albeit “just part time”) for about a year and never heard the name Witness Lee? Surely this is a typo. Lee’s name is everywhere you look. Local Church meetings are based on the spoken ministry of Witness Lee. The footnotes in the Recovery Version…did you think those were from John MacArthur? I think in a sincere, but misguided, attempt to give our readers the impression that Lee had nothing to do with your original visions and visitations, and Lee’s ministry simply confirmed them, you misspoke in a major way. Maybe you would care to take a mulligan on this one?"

HI UntoHim,

No typo, it is accurate, and that may have been because of the type of meetings I attended for that period. I mostly attended the table meeting and the prayer meeting and there were no ministry messages in those meetings. I also left the table meeting immediately and did not stick around for a second meeting if there was one (I do not remember one ever mentioned) as I had meeting responsibilities in the denomination I attended.

There was no Recovery Version at that time.

Apparently there were "loose leaf" life-studies floating around but no one ever mentioned them or handed one to me. I say apparently because after I came in to the Lord's Recovery, the ministry office offered to bind together anyone's loose leaf studies into a single volume (Hebrews, John, Matthew, etc. ). I didn't have those loose leafs but obviously since others did they were using them before I came in.

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Old 06-25-2017, 10:49 AM   #561
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Local Church Movement.

Different people use different acronyms. Sometimes it gets confusing to me, and I've been reading these forums for many years. I've thought about trying to encourage some conformity, but I pretty much gave up on that.

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Old 06-25-2017, 07:04 PM   #562
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That was the last piece of the mosaic of the vision of the Body of Christ. At that point I was "turned and burned" . You know the phrase well I am certain. That was over 40 years ago and the vision has kept me ever since.
.
.
A vision of the Body local, universal, personal, and functional. By the time I began to read and listen to Brother Lee's ministry i needed no convincing. It just affirmed the vision that Lord had already revealed to me.
Drake, I respect your vision. Yet, after 40 some years, in your own view, how much closer is the Lord's Recovery to that vision?

I don't know about you, but my own personal feeling is that it is getting less local (the "One Ministry" outweighing the locality); not getting universal (widening of the gap between the Lord's Recovery and Christianity plus divisions from within); less personal ("corporate experience" outweighing the personal); and functioning more mechanically than organically (jumping to "answers" in the RcV footnotes and ministry messages instead of going through the necessary personal exploration and meditation to get the truth).

In the prophesying meeting just passed, when I watched the brothers and sisters speak one-by-one, I was glad that they have the heart to pursue God's truth. But I know it would be many many times better if they can break the invisible boundry of repeating again and again the minstry's messages and instead share their true personal experience of Christ and their direct findings (or even questions) from studying God's words (i.e. The Bible).

This is kind of like a butterfly trapped in a glass house. May be it can see the great vision of the wonderful world outside the glass house. Day by day, it hits into the invisible glass wall and cannot reach any closer to the great light it sees. May be the flowers grown by man inside the glass house can well sustain its life, but it will never enjoy the full riches in the wonderful nature created by God unless it starts to seek for the right way to reach out to what it sees.

I would also like to share with you the final passage from C.S.Lewis' "Surprised By Joy: The Shape of My Early Life":

But I now know that the experience, considered as a state of my own mind, had never had the kind of importance I once gave it. It was valuable only as a pointer to something other and outer. While that other was in doubt, the pointer naturally loomed large in my thoughts. When we are lost in the woods the sight of a signpost is a great matter. He who first sees it cries “Look!” The whole party gathers round and stares. But when we have found the road and are passing signposts every few miles, we shall not stop and stare. They will encourage us and we shall be grateful to the authority that set them up. But we shall not stop and stare, or not much; not on this road, though their pillars are of silver and their lettering of gold. “We would be at Jerusalem.”

May be we have stopped and stared for too long.
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Old 06-26-2017, 12:58 PM   #563
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They have the term church, but they do not have the reality of the Body of Christ.
Who does? I'm sure there may be assemblies out there that may have a better grasp than most. Generally speaking there are no fellowship of churches who can back the claim of "having the reality of the Body of Christ".
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Old 06-26-2017, 01:07 PM   #564
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In the prophesying meeting just passed, when I watched the brothers and sisters speak one-by-one, I was glad that they have the heart to pursue God's truth. But I know it would be many many times better if they can break the invisible boundry of repeating again and again the minstry's messages and instead share their true personal experience of Christ and their direct findings (or even questions) from studying God's words (i.e. The Bible).
Amen! I share your thoughts.
I wonder if anyone has considered factors from going away from testimonies according to one's daily walk with the Lord to prophesying according to a ministry?
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Old 06-26-2017, 03:45 PM   #565
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Concerning the general vision of the LCM. Universal->Local->Personal->Building up. These are good ideas which are much more widespread in current Christianity that Drake knows. (Drake talked about the Baptist Church, but I doubt he has been in one for decades.

Mutuality and the reality of the Body of Christ building itself up are mainstream concepts now. They just aren't taught using the same terminology that the LCM uses.

But, regardless, if the LCM really wanted to enlighten poor Christianity all they would have to do is repackage good, general LCM teachings in a more modern, accessible format, instead of the stiff, turgid prose and dry presentation they tend to use. I believe there would be some benefit there.

Alas, the LCM is really not interested in helping anyone but themselves. They really don't want to feed the sheep; they want to control the flock. They don't want to cast their bread upon the waters; they want to be the only bakery in town.

For example, why doesn't the LCM release videos of Witness Lee teaching in trainings and conferences onto the Internet? Why are those kept under wraps? What are they afraid of? What could be more genuine an expression of his ministry than him speaking? Yet, as great as they think he was, they seem reluctant to show him to the rest of the world. That's weird.

The reason is they want to control the message. They don't want their stuff to spread into Christianity because here's what will happen if they do: The best and good stuff will be received and the junk will be rejected. Once that happens the only unique thing the LCM will have to offer is the junk that the rest of the Body rejected.

They really are just all about themselves.
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:23 PM   #566
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For example, why doesn't the LCM release videos of Witness Lee teaching in trainings and conferences onto the Internet? Why are those kept under wraps? What are they afraid of? What could be more genuine an expression of his ministry than him speaking? Yet, as great as they think he was, they seem reluctant to show him to the rest of the world. That's weird.
Why it's not released? Probably for the same reason that Zondervan does not give out free NIV bibles? I mean, copyright applies to most things, and also trainings that cost money. I don't know of many ministries or churches that release everything for free. The churches I used to go to charged about $5 for a CD or tape of the pastor's sermons.

But if you youtube living stream ministries there is plenty of material online there. Lots of videos of Lee, Ron speaking and others. 62000 results.

Most books are readable for free from living stream website.

You can't really claim that the message is controlled if they are providing free access to most books (and the most controversial ones).
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Old 06-26-2017, 04:30 PM   #567
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Who does? I'm sure there may be assemblies out there that may have a better grasp than most. Generally speaking there are no fellowship of churches who can back the claim of "having the reality of the Body of Christ".
You are in essence saying that no fellowships have the reality of Christ?
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Old 06-26-2017, 06:44 PM   #568
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Why it's not released? Probably for the same reason that Zondervan does not give out free NIV bibles? I mean, copyright applies to most things, and also trainings that cost money. I don't know of many ministries or churches that release everything for free. The churches I used to go to charged about $5 for a CD or tape of the pastor's sermons.
I agree with you that LSM website is more open and more functional than any other publisher that I am aware of. With any other publisher they will let you read a few pages, with LSM you can access every publication and every page of that publication.
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Old 06-27-2017, 08:13 AM   #569
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You can't really claim that the message is controlled if they are providing free access to most books (and the most controversial ones).
I was talking about Lee videos, not books. There are no videos of Witness Lee which are put out by LSM. The few that are out there were leaked by individuals. Most are bad quality.

Obviously LSM is hesitant to let the public see Witness Lee in action and unfiltered.

And your profit motive point doesn't apply. LSM is making no income from Lee videos now. So what do they have to lose?
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Old 06-27-2017, 09:21 AM   #570
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Drake, I respect your vision. Yet, after 40 some years, in your own view, how much closer is the Lord's Recovery to that vision?

I don't know about you, but my own personal feeling is that it is
* getting less local (the "One Ministry" outweighing the locality);
* not getting universal (widening of the gap between the Lord's Recovery and Christianity plus divisions from within);
* less personal ("corporate experience" outweighing the personal);
* and functioning more mechanically than organically (jumping to "answers" in the RcV footnotes and ministry messages instead of going through the necessary personal exploration and meditation to get the truth).
ALB, this is an important point. For all the grandiose claims Lee made, where is the fruit? You have provided an excellent list of the fruit of WL's "ministry" above (which I edited into bullet points, I hope that's OK).

The requirements for speaking in God's name are high, to say the least. Deut. 18 talks about the prophet who presumes to speak what God has not spoken. How does one know the source, whether it be God or man...a false prophet? If the prophesy comes to pass, it was spoken by God. In Deut. 13 the same topic is covered with the stipulation that the prophesy does not lead the people to serve other Gods.

Has Witness Lee's "vision/ministry" come to pass? How does Witness Lee measure up to the standard for only speaking what God speaks? Does Lee's ministry point others to God or to Lee?

I think the answers to these questions have been well established. Then there's your question: "Yet, after 40 some years, in your own view, how much closer is the Lord's Recovery to that vision?"

The "vision" of Martin Luther has withstood the test of time. Justification by faith was "uncovered" because it was locked away in a language that few understood. Luther worked much of his life to translate the Bible into a language that was understood, then worked to set the translated Bible to press, making it available to the people. Christianity has progressed 500 years on this simple fact which was "uncovered" by Luther: Rom. 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Justification by faith withstood the test of time because it was spoken by God...not Luther.

Your list of the fruit of Witness Lee's "vision", after 40 years, is a good one.

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Old 06-27-2017, 09:41 AM   #571
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...For example, why doesn't the LCM release videos of Witness Lee teaching in trainings and conferences onto the Internet? Why are those kept under wraps? What are they afraid of? What could be more genuine an expression of his ministry than him speaking? Yet, as great as they think he was, they seem reluctant to show him to the rest of the world. That's weird.

The reason is they want to control the message. They don't want their stuff to spread into Christianity because here's what will happen if they do: The best and good stuff will be received and the junk will be rejected. Once that happens the only unique thing the LCM will have to offer is the junk that the rest of the Body rejected.

They really are just all about themselves.
Igzy,

I believe there are at least 2 more reasons why they don't release the video messages:

1) The messages have been edited, massaged, polished, etc., ... to the extent that they do not resemble the original spoken message. Did you ever look up something in the printed message you KNOW you heard him say only to find that IT WASN'T THERE? Have you compared versions of the same book, only to discover that even the books they are reprinting aren't the same?

2) I remember listening to Lee on video in the local video trainings. It was the most boring thing I ever tried to sit through. Night after night...he was just sitting there...droning on and on. Buzzzzzzzzz. No energy. It seemed that he had lost interest in what he was doing and was even bored with himself. It was awful. My guess they don't want to embarrass themselves by promoting this version of the MOTA.

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Old 06-27-2017, 04:03 PM   #572
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I was talking about Lee videos, not books. There are no videos of Witness Lee which are put out by LSM. The few that are out there were leaked by individuals. Most are bad quality.

Obviously LSM is hesitant to let the public see Witness Lee in action and unfiltered.

And your profit motive point doesn't apply. LSM is making no income from Lee videos now. So what do they have to lose?
I'm not sure it's true that they make no income from Lee's videos.

They run a webcast subscription service, for $9.95 per month where you can watch Lee's videos:
http://www.lsmwebcast.com/

So I think that is a plausible reason why they don't release them for free, and it may have nothing to do with what you are claiming.

You are right the Youtube ones seem to be from individuals. Still, a quick youtube search of "Witness Lee" reveals over 6000 search results. Many of the videos are of poor quality or in Chinese.
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Old 06-27-2017, 05:31 PM   #573
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I'm not sure it's true that they make no income from Lee's videos.

They run a webcast subscription service, for $9.95 per month where you can watch Lee's videos:
http://www.lsmwebcast.com/

You are right the Youtube ones seem to be from individuals. Still, a quick youtube search of "Witness Lee" reveals over 6000 search results. Many of the videos are of poor quality or in Chinese.
I stand corrected. That's good to know. I may get a trial subscription. It would be interesting to revisit to find out what all the fuss was about.

Is there a page that tells you what you get for your $9.95? Nothing on this page says anything about content.

Most Witness Lee hits on YouTube are not Lee himself. Usually they are someone else talking about him.
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Old 06-27-2017, 05:37 PM   #574
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I stand corrected. That's good to know. I may get a trial subscription. It would be interesting to revisit to find out what all the fuss was about.

Is there a page that tells you what you get for your $9.95? Nothing on this page says anything about content.

Most Witness Lee hits on YouTube are not Lee himself. Usually they are someone else talking about him.
Did you find this button:

Visitors
To browse this site and watch a sample video without registering,

That will take you inside.

There is a Witness Lee section but I don't know if subscribing gets you access to all videos or just a select few "flavor of the month" ones.

I can see a lot of training and conference videos going back to the 70's.
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Old 06-28-2017, 04:53 PM   #575
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The bible, ministry, meetings, are not helpful in counselling?
The Bible — Yes. But it often requires more than self-help. It needs people who understand the issues for which the counseling is required and how to apply the Bible. In other words, we often need help.

As for "the ministry" and meetings, not so much.

And in too many cases, even if you argue that all of them can help, it takes more than just immersing yourself into those to be brought back to health. It takes action by someone(s) other than just yourself. Otherwise there would not be the case of God sending anyone to anyone else. Or a writer needing to write something to anyone concerning anything. (I am referring to the things recorded in the Bible, not just anyone or any writer.)

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Depends what kind of counselling you are talking about. You think if someone needs a hospital we are going to try fix it ourselves with the Bible? We are not JW's.
Maybe not. But maybe you are (in that sense). The rhetoric is that the Bible, meetings, the ministry (meaning Lee's books) will fix anything without anyone else stepping in to help. Just do it.

Somehow this seems like works of the wrong kind taught by a group that despises works of the right kind.

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It's the main command, that's what it's called the great commission, not the "one of many other commissions" and as far as I can tell, was the main ministry of the church in the book of Acts and the apostle Paul's main calling.
(I will not respond to your ignorance concerning my status as evangelical.)

There is no "great commission" that stands above the "great commandment. That label is the addition of man years after the fact. Jesus commanded many things, and very specifically stated that the greatest commandment was actually two — Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. You can rightly state that it is loving to help anyone come to know and believe in Christ. But even the example and context of the command did not involve anything that remotely resembled preaching the gospel. So I would assume that all the other things that Christ commanded are just as great as any other.

You are correct that Jesus did take the 11 disciples aside and commanded them to go and disciple the earth. And within that command was the charge to teach the new disciples to obey all that Christ commanded, not just that one command.

And when it comes to following that command, it is generally important that the message be clear and not muddied by other problems. Problems like failure to obey they multitude of commands that Jesus gave. Like the guy I used to work with that ordered a radar detector every year with a 30-day money-back guarantee to arrive within a week of leaving on a cross-country trip to take his family to visit his wife's family on Long Island. They stayed for 2 months while he flew back home and worked, then flew back to drive them back home. Of course, with a newly-ordered radar detector arriving just before leaving Long Island. So he used two radar detectors (to help him break the law) every year without ever paying for them.

But he was the most vocal Christian around.

Not much testimony. Didn't convince anyone at work that they should believe.

This is the problem with your version of the "calling" of a church (assembly). It is primarily the time in which the body of Christ meets together to repent, pray, worship, and be further reminded or taught about what Christ commanded. Not just to have enjoyment (like today's quote from Lee about the meaning of grace). Or to evangelize the earth.

There are people specifically called to that ministry. People like Billy Graham. And others, both locally in our assemblies and who go to mission fields and other evangelistic efforts. And we all get involved in some ways at some times, but not all the time — other than the preaching of the gospel that occurs through our living. And for most of us, this is our primary "preaching." And it takes more than knowing the right words for that preaching. It takes evidence of lives that are righteous. That don't just snub the traffic laws (and especially not brag about it). That are kind toward those we might otherwise think of as sinners. Even the "worst kind" like gays, or the woman living with her boy friend. And this really hits home when we work with them. Do we think that we have gained any ground to "preach" verbally when we are semi-hostile the rest of the time? I wouldn't want to know the god that made people that way.

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What "command of Christ" are you talking about?
First, my comment that you posted that reply to was not about any command. It was on the focus of the LRC meetings and "spirituality."


But if you can't come up with more than he one command besides the so-called "great commission" then it is evident that they teachings of the LRC are not very much according to Christ.
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