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Introductions and Testimonies Please tell everybody something about yourself. Tell us a little. Tell us a lot. Its up to you!

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Old 02-09-2014, 12:29 AM   #1
bearbear
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I just wanted to say sorry for how I first came to this forum stressing repentance. It's true we all need to repent daily but I was mistaken to focus on repentance when it's the LRC that really needs to repent of it's past of when thousands of saints were left hurt and distraught and Jesus' name was dragged through the mud via hypocrisy.

I knew Witness Lee's past was bad but I didn't come to know just how depraved he was until I researched a little more to get a feel for what you guys were going through. The level of iniquity has depressed me and I feel like I need to take a short break so I can recuperate, mature and regain God's presence.

There are folks who have done much worst than him, but what makes his situation so insidious is the level of hypocrisy and cover up. Lee's public image was squeaky clean among his followers, the prototype of a god-man and oracle of God everyone in the LRC aspires to strive towards. However, his private life and treatment towards his flock was almost at the polar end. And that in itself would not be so bad if it weren't for the degree of hiding, brushing off and character assassinations of those who tried to confront Witness Lee and his successors out of love for the sake of Lee's own soul and those in his flock.

I keep warning myself not to get too caught up on Witness Lee's failings and instead feel sympathy for those who are caught in the system and deceived. However the more I look into things, the harder it is not to fall into this trap. I don't think I'm at the stage of maturity yet where I can handle this level of epic hypocrisy and am afraid that I myself will stumble. So I think I need to pull myself away for a while and seek God's will, lest I lead others astray.

God Bless everyone and know that Father God loves you all with all his heart unconditionally. Praise the Lord that loving God and loving our neighbors is the only thing that matters in this world that is going to eventually pass away with its lusts.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:04 AM   #2
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Touching and moving post bro bb. I feel your pain. Disappointment can run deep, impacting our mental health, down to our nervous system.

So, it's a good thing you aren't in the local church.

The LRC can't handle mental heath issues. If Jesus doesn't fix 'em, they don't know what to do. It's a problem for them, that they'd rather avoid.

But they can't. A certain percentage of our population suffer some kind of mental health condition ; local churcher's included.

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I don't think I'm at the stage of maturity yet where I can handle this level of epic hypocrisy and am afraid that I myself will stumble. So I think I need to pull myself away for a while and seek God's will, lest I lead others astray.
Don't fret about this bro. You're not leading any of us. So your free to be yourself out here. I do agree, however, that you should be concerned about those you are leading. We're just not among them ... I don't think.

AND! We would miss you.
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:10 PM   #3
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Update: Sorry I decided to take the sound board down. God Bless

-Sam
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:20 PM   #4
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Brother Bearbear, personally I am grateful to you for your posts. They've helped me to realize what the LC is.

If you are still looking for the balance that you mentioned in your message to Jane, here are some quotes to ponder:

“If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.”
― Cicero

“Truth without love is brutality, and love without truth is hypocrisy.”
― Warren W. Wiersbe

“The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie. "One word of truth outweighs the world.”
― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

2 Timothy 2:15
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

John 7:14-18
About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?” So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

2 Samuel 23:2
“The Spirit of the Lord speaks by me; his word is on my tongue.

Zechariah 8:16
These are the things that you shall do: Speak the truth to one another; render in your gates judgments that are true and make for peace;

Ephesians 4:25
Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Ephesians 4:15
Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ.

Probably, to keep a balance between truth and forgiveness, first and foremost, one must keep love in his heart. I believe you have it.
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:37 AM   #5
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bearbear,

We are all on a personal journey. I've always felt you were sincere. Although I've disagreed with you on some points and felt to respond, you've made us all think and that is GOOD.

Certainly the subject of eternal salvation is an important one. However, whether eternal security exists or not, in the end our response should be the same: look to God for mercy and "go and sin no more."

Blessings, bro.
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:00 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by bearbear View Post
I just wanted to say sorry for how I first came to this forum stressing repentance. It's true we all need to repent daily but I was mistaken to focus on repentance when it's the LRC that really needs to repent of it's past of when thousands of saints were left hurt and distraught and Jesus' name was dragged through the mud via hypocrisy.

I knew Witness Lee's past was bad but I didn't come to know just how depraved he was until I researched a little more to get a feel for what you guys were going through. The level of iniquity has depressed me and I feel like I need to take a short break so I can recuperate, mature and regain God's presence.
bearbear, any truth of God can be overly stressed until it becomes a falsehood. This was a comment Joyce Meyer once made, and it has helped me. That does not in any way make our message "bad," but it should remind us that while the Bible is balanced, we at times may not be.

You have a great message for many believers, especially the young people like yourself, who have taken God's love and forgiveness to the extreme, thus becoming examples of what Paul implied when he said, "what sin that grace may abound?!?"

Your comments about the depravity of Lee should be a warning to us all. Lee was a gifted teacher who eventually had serious failures. That does not mean that he was never a believer, nor that he will perish. He frankly thought way too highly of himself, and he had the same failings as Eli the high priest with regard to his sons. His illusions as to being the "acting God, consummate minister of the age, etc," infected his ministry and damaged others. He refused to listen to God's speaking through other men of God. Lee's failures as a father opened the door for a horrible inrush of corruption like unto I Samuel chapters 2-3.
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:28 AM   #7
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I understand more where you guys are coming from now. I lean towards Lee living in self-deception after reading Jane's book and other accounts. It seems like he believed in deputy-authority with all his heart so he lived as he was accountable to no one, except God as he mentioned in his phone conversation with Sal. The hypocrisy is astounding considering that Lee expected Sal to make the accounts in the Church of Boston transparent to the saints there, yet he himself expected Sal to understand that the MOTA had no need to be transparent about the financial accounts of his own ministry.

Lee's error was that he was abiding in doctrines like Deputy Authority and not the plain word of God. If he really was remaining in Christ and his words like Jesus told us to in John 15, he would have realized his self deception, but when we start straying from the truth of God's word and into man made doctrines and traditions, we allow Satan to wreak havoc over our lives all while thinking we are doing good.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Witness Lee's repentance at the end of his life seemed to focus on receiving of other believers, making no mention of DayStar or Eli-type sins related to his sons. Maybe he had a private confession before the Lord, but that's not really repentance. Jesus said "Salvation has come to this house" to Zaccheus only when he had a true change of heart that resulted in his commitment to publicly right the wrongs he inflicted on others. God expects us to show our repentance through our deeds which results from a heart change. If we're only willing to confess our sin privately, but not publicly when confronted, that's not really confession (admitting we were wrong) but it's hypocrisy.

I believe forgiveness of sins is conditioned on repentance and confession, or the very least the expectation of repentance such as when Jesus told the adulterous woman to "sin no more". God forgives when we admit our ways were evil and forsake it, while turning to him to save us which is the biblical definition repentance.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2 Chronicles 7:14
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:14 AM   #8
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Lee's error was that he was abiding in doctrines like Deputy Authority and not the plain word of God. If he really was remaining in Christ and his words like Jesus told us to in John 15, he would have realized his self deception, but when we start straying from the truth of God's word and into man made doctrines and traditions, we allow Satan to wreak havoc over our lives all while thinking we are doing good.
One thing that led to this was going way overboard with "types and shadows" in the Old Testament. Lee became very subjective with his reading of just about everything in the OT, to the point that the "hidden" message became more important than the plain message.

Gazing at clouds you can see just about anything your mind wants to imagine. Likewise with "types." There is a place for types. But when, for example, you start authorizing shutting down churches based on OT accounts of razing leprous houses, you've gone around the bend and off the reservation.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:34 AM   #9
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I understand more where you guys are coming from now. I lean towards Lee living in self-deception after reading Jane's book and other accounts. It seems like he believed in deputy-authority with all his heart so he lived as he was accountable to no one, except God as he mentioned in his phone conversation with Sal. The hypocrisy is astounding considering that Lee expected Sal to make the accounts in the Church of Boston transparent to the saints there, yet he himself expected Sal to understand that the MOTA had no need to be transparent about the financial accounts of his own ministry.

Lee's error was that he was abiding in doctrines like Deputy Authority and not the plain word of God.
Good point.

Note how Deputy Authority proponents like to use Noah and Moses for examples. Moses took a foreign wife, and Noah like his homemade brew. And we all know what happened to those who protested.

My question is this -- why don't you use Eli the High Priest or King David as an example. Lee loved to point out how God was out to get anyone who spoke up against him, as God judged Mariam and Ham. But why didn't God judge Nathan for speaking against David? or Samuel for speaking up against Eli?

One reason is that Moses and Noah did not damage others. Obviously, ones like Lee and Nee clung to these concepts of Deputy Authority because they had things to hide, and they wanted the license to lead without accountability for their failures. They wanted all their adherents to be silenced by the fear of God's judgment. They used the oneness and the unity of the church as a smokescreen for what they really desired.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:43 AM   #10
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I understand more where you guys are coming from now. I lean towards Lee living in self-deception after reading Jane's book and other accounts. It seems like he believed in deputy-authority with all his heart so he lived as he was accountable to no one, except God as he mentioned in his phone conversation with Sal.
With regard to Witness Lee, I feel he surrounded himself with enablers (aka Yes men) whereas brothers who could have served as a check and balance became personna non grata (John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon, etc). Why Witness Lee could not work with Stephen Kaung is a mystery.

Talking about deputy authority and perceived accountability, same applies to the Blended brothers. Perception they are only accountable to God. Perception (or deception) they are God's deputy authority on earth.
Which is why brother Ron in South America could defame Steve Isitt specifically, allude to Bill Mallon by questioning his spiritual condition and none of his peers says a rebuking word.
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Old 02-10-2014, 11:51 AM   #11
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It's true we all need to repent daily but I was mistaken to focus on repentance when it's the LRC that really needs to repent of it's past of when thousands of saints were left hurt and distraught and Jesus' name was dragged through the mud via hypocrisy.
Amen bearbear. This lack of corporate repentance makes me think the headship of Christ has been usurped. The LRC doesn't want to come clean if it means certain resepcted leaders would suffer loss. Better to play the blame game than to accept responsibility and accountability.
My feeling has been with public repentance, there would be far fewer reasons to be on these forums.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:17 PM   #12
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Amen bearbear. This lack of corporate repentance makes me think the headship of Christ has been usurped. The LRC doesn't want to come clean if it means certain resepcted leaders would suffer loss. Better to play the blame game than to accept responsibility and accountability.
My feeling has been with public repentance, there would be far fewer reasons to be on these forums.
Amen. Like an infected boil being lanced, once the pressure of needed public confession and repentance is relieved, nothing more can be expected, other than a pledge to do better (go and sin no more) and possibly demotion of some leaders--then the healing process can begin.
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