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Old 04-03-2009, 03:26 PM   #1
countmeworthy
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Default Titles in LSM

I thought I'd start a new thread so that my question would not derail the thread on the Lee people remembered.
I believe Ohio wrote:
Quote:
The issue of control is systemic to the LC's, beginning with WL, then the workers, leaders, elders, serving ones, saints,
Can someone explain to me the order of leadership in the LSM/LC?
For example: What distinguishes a worker from a leader from an elder from a serving one.
Is there a 'totem pole' of sorts? I know every born again believer is a saint. How come Pastors are never mentioned, or apostles. Ephesians 4:11 describes the offices as:

And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

The LSM/LC uses terms not found in Ephesians 4:11.


(the Christian denominational/non-denominational church at the other extreme, outside the LSM denomination uses these titles as companies use titles for their management team. I've got that one figured out.)

So how does one climb up the ladder in the LSM/LC ?
Wearing long sleeved white shirts and ties, maybe?
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:23 PM   #2
finallyprettyokay
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Default Re: Titles in LSM

Hey, I am back on line again! I know you all missed me

This made me laugh
CMW said: So how does one climb up the ladder in the LSM/LC ?
Wearing long sleeved white shirts and ties, maybe?


I always wore pants to the meetings -- almost never a dress or skirt --- and one day, one of the other girls made the observation that if you want to be an Usher, wear a dress and pretty soon The Brothers will 'feel' to make you an usher. At some point, that seemed like a good idea to me . Being an usher was a lot more cool than Cleaning and Arrranging. So I wore a dress for a while and it wasn't long at all before I was ushering.

It was a funner job, I was right.

So, that doesn't answer your good question, CMW, but I thought it was too good to let it pass .....
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:46 PM   #3
countmeworthy
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Default Re: Titles in LSM

Quote:
Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay View Post
Hey, I am back on line again! I know you all missed me.
This made me laugh
CMW said: So how does one climb up the ladder in the LSM/LC ?
Wearing long sleeved white shirts and ties, maybe?


I always wore pants to the meetings -- almost never a dress or skirt --- and one day, one of the other girls made the observation that if you want to be an Usher, wear a dress and pretty soon The Brothers will 'feel' to make you an usher. At some point, that seemed like a good idea to me . Being an usher was a lot more cool than Cleaning and Arrranging. So I wore a dress for a while and it wasn't long at all before I was ushering.

It was a funner job, I was right.
So, that doesn't answer your good question, CMW, but I thought it was too good to let it pass .....

Hey You !! Welcome back!! Here's waving at ya!
Wow! I didn't even know 'sisters' played prominent roles in the LC!!
I didn't know there were sisters who ushered !!! I don't remember seeing them in San Diego. In fact, I still see the faces of the 'brothers' who were the ushers there.

I thought all sisters did were, 'testify', play guitars or piano, cook, clean, work and get married. Then if your husband became an elder, you most likely became a 'leading' sister.
How exciting.

Oh...btw, it's good to finally have a sister around here!
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Old 04-03-2009, 07:03 PM   #4
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Default Re: Titles in LSM

Wow. My story happened in San Diego --- but you don't remember women ushering --- and you came there just a year or so after we moved. That is a good illustration of how much, how often, we all have different viewpoints of how it was.

But don't get me wrong ... this was not a place of any prominence. Oh no, no, no, NO. It would always be under the headship of a male usher .... please. I remember the music service group had two very talented women leading it .... BUT a male was placed as the coordinator (the word used) ... even though he had no real part in the actual work of music. He was a figure head. Wild. So, yeah, the sisters could play guitar --- but only if there was a brother to pray. Etc.

A different universe .....
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Old 04-04-2009, 06:34 AM   #5
countmeworthy
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Default Re: Titles in LSM

Quote:
Originally Posted by finallyprettyokay View Post
Wow. My story happened in San Diego --- but you don't remember women ushering --- and you came there just a year or so after we moved. That is a good illustration of how much, how often, we all have different viewpoints of how it was.

But don't get me wrong ... this was not a place of any prominence. Oh no, no, no, NO. It would always be under the headship of a male usher .... please. I remember the music service group had two very talented women leading it .... BUT a male was placed as the coordinator (the word used) ... even though he had no real part in the actual work of music. He was a figure head. Wild. So, yeah, the sisters could play guitar --- but only if there was a brother to pray. Etc.

A different universe .....
Yep.
And one of the talented 'sisters' on the guitar was Jan G right? I don't know who the other one was...maybe Carla.

Oh yeah...and the 'co-ordinators'....another 'title' on the LC totem pole. I think the co-ordinators were always 'brothers' yes?

Still no response on my question:
How does one climb up the totem pole?

What makes one a:
co-worker?

a leader?

a co-ordinator?

an elder?

a serving one?

and finally a 'blended'?

What are their roles exactly? What do their titles mean exactly?
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:42 PM   #6
Hope
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Default Re: Titles in LSM

Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
I thought I'd start a new thread so that my question would not derail the thread on the Lee people remembered.
I believe Ohio wrote:
Can someone explain to me the order of leadership in the LSM/LC?
For example: What distinguishes a worker from a leader from an elder from a serving one.
Is there a 'totem pole' of sorts? I know every born again believer is a saint. How come Pastors are never mentioned, or apostles. Ephesians 4:11 describes the offices as:

And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

The LSM/LC uses terms not found in Ephesians 4:11.


(the Christian denominational/non-denominational church at the other extreme, outside the LSM denomination uses these titles as companies use titles for their management team. I've got that one figured out.)

So how does one climb up the ladder in the LSM/LC ?
Wearing long sleeved white shirts and ties, maybe?


Dear CMW,

Your post makes me laugh. What is a “serving one” anyway? Or did you ever hear “he is a co-worker?”

In 1967, Spring, James Barber and John Ingalls came to Waco, Texas to introduce “pray reading.” They flew in and out of Love Field in Dallas. I drove them the 100 miles from Waco to Dallas. That summer in LA, I had heard for the first time that so and so from Taiwan was a “co-worker.” In the little church life in Waco we never used any titles. So I took the opportunity to ask the two traveling brothers and close associates of WL, “brothers what exactly is a co-worker?” They laughed nervously looked at one another and never answered.

In 1968, I went with the group to visit the churches in Taiwan. There we discovered a whole new set of believers. An elderly sister sat outside our dorm room. She was a “serving one.” There was a “workers” home. There were “leading brothers,” and “leading leading brothers.” There were “leading sisters.” And “senior leading sisters.” There were “sister co-workers” and “brother co-workers.” There were “elders” and there were “leading elders.” There were “ministering brothers” and “district leaders.” There were “ home leaders.” There were those who “coordinated in the” (gospel), (children’s work), (high school work), (campus work) etc.

Why was this so strange to us from the USA? I later learned that WL had made a decision to drop many things from the Far East. He wanted to drop all the designation. So in LA, in 1966, when I visited, there were no titles. James Barber was very big on no titles and no one living from the finances of the church. Though he actually did not work but lived from his own father’s businesses, he always would mention if asked that he was an editor. He did do some work on the Stream Magazine.

It is Ohio who mentioned the multiple titles, positions or whatever. Dear Brother Titus brought those to Ohio from Taiwan.

Eventually in LA around 1969, since the church there was approaching 1,000, WL decided to appoint elders and deacons. Houston began to have elders after the move there. Benson and Ray and Ben sort of self appointed themselves. No one objected and they seemed to be faithful to care for the saints and the direction of the meetings etc. They were not little kings nor were they ever referred to by a title.

As the church in LA was instituting something called the practical service, there began to be a way to aspire to a position. There were many services there in the church as cleaning the meeting hall, gardening, children’s work, tapes, ushering etc. These needed some practical oversight. Some who would help in this capacity would be designated as a “service group leader.” We picked this up in Houston. We had about 125 and had just built a new meeting hall. There were plenty of practical needs. Ray was very fastidious to seek to do things as WL did them in LA and Taiwan. Each service group had two or more “coordinating ones” with there being a specific order among the coordinating ones. The elders looked for qualities such as devotion to Christ and to the brothers and sisters, to faithfulness and also ability to lead others and to follow through on assigned tasks. Kind of like Acts chapter six, “faithful men.” I became the leading deacon there. I have no idea how or why?

In Dallas, at first we tried to avoid any titles. In fact,we were all about the same. We had no fathers or children but all would fit the “young men” category in 1 John. Over time as the church grew the need to handle practical matter grew. Eventually some brothers served as deacons. We had official and unofficial elders. George Whitington and myself had been given a nod of encouragement to take the lead. WL was very careful not to make any whoop te do out of appointing elders. Bob Bynum came to help us. He could not be an official elder due to a divorce in his younger days. We never had “leading sisters,” nor did we seek to have them. Just let the brother and sisters function to build up the church with no titles.

So dear CMW, how did one climb the ladder? It was very amorphous. A key was to be tight with the right people. Get connected with whoever had the most influence with WL. When we talk of abuse or bad practices, most of the blame is with the leadership at the LSM and local level. Until the early 80s, WL did not seek to either lead and direct the various churches, or if you want, control. How this all came about is another story. Some may say he was a controller in Taiwan. From what I have learned, that is probably so. But from my own personal experience over many years, he did not do much to control. There was a shift in January, 1974 toward more centralized leadership. Max Rapoport attempted to bring the many churches into a more unified movement. This I believe was according to the desire of WL. As we became more centralized, it was required to demonstrate loyalty to the ministry. But at the same time, quite often WL would revert to the old way of encouraging the saints to seek the Lord directly for how they should function or where they should live. I can give many examples of times brothers did not take his fellowship or direction and there were no ill feelings or effects. On several occasions when I had been invited to travel to speak, I checked with WL to see his feeling. He never told me what to do or not to do. He encouraged me to seek the Lord. If I had peace, then go and the Lord will give you whatever you should speak or do.

Sorry, CMW, there is no real answer to you question with regard to when we were there but I am sure there would be now.



Hope

Last edited by Hope; 04-07-2009 at 12:45 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:33 PM   #7
finallyprettyokay
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Hope said:
Quote:
Dear CMW, Your post makes me laugh.

Hope --- this makes me laugh
Quote:
Sorry, CMW, there is no real answer to you question with regard to when we were there but I am sure there would be now.
Good one. And no doubt there would be ---

fpo
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Old 05-08-2009, 04:08 AM   #8
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Default Re: Titles in LSM

Quote:
The issue of control is systemic to the LC's, beginning with WL, then the workers, leaders, elders, serving ones, saints,
And we are forgetting the top of the ladder - book editors.
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