Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Orthopraxy - Christian Practice

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-27-2011, 12:03 PM   #1
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

The following writing is by SoberMind and can also be read at

http://www.concernedbrothers.com/rep...edTheMark4.pdf

Brother Lee’s Spirit of Painful Repentance and Solemn Charge in His Final Public Message – Why did we totally miss the mark? During the Chinese New Year Conference in February of 1997, Brother Witness Lee made an open confession in his last public message. He was speaking in Chinese (Mandarin.) Some saints who sat near him said that his eyes were tearful as he made this confession. After that meeting, he never gave another message in a public meeting before he went to be with the Lord in June of 1997. Hence, his open confession proved to be his last public speaking to the churches and may be considered as his personal, concluding remarks of his ministry. Surely it is part of Brother Lee’s “will.” A literal translation of his words reads: "(Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God),…we coworkers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn…,
too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included; I confess that, I had, for this matter and before the Lord, a very painful repentance. I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…(a long pause) You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! Of course, denominations are wrong. The sectarianism is what God condemns the most. However, the Lord still hopes that all His children… do not have such condemnation. Such an understanding and analysis will require much effort. I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…" Those who know Mandarin Chinese could feel the pain in Brother Lee’s heart and be touched by his genuine repentance. In addition to making a public repentance, Brother Lee made a solemn charge to his co-workers, the responsible brothers and the saints of local churches to learn from our past mistakes in the matter of receiving all believers in Christian denominations according to God and have no condemnation toward them. He charged us to study diligently and fellowship with one another about his last message in the light of his words of repentance. He repeated his charge, asking them to come together in large or small groups to read, pray and prophesy to each other. If we take Brother Lee’s final charge seriously, we should devote some quality time to get into his last message. The leading ones should study and analyze what were our mistakes in having a condemning spirit toward the denominational believers and our
not receiving them according to God. We should read, pray and fellowship with one another about God’s Word regarding this matter. We should study and analyze the reasons for these mistakes including our attitude, our spirit and our teachings. As Brother Lee said, it will require much effort to grasp the subtle difference between seeing denominations are wrong and condemned by God and rejecting denominational believers with a condemning spirit. With the mercy and the shining from the Lord, we may be able to see our past mistakes and we must repent for each of them. We should then adjust our attitude, our spirit and, most importantly, the teachings that lead to this wrong attitude
and wrong spirit. We should also help the saints to go through the same process, so that the churches in the recovery will not perpetuate the same mistakes we made in the past under Brother Lee’s leadership.

A Neglected Word

To my surprise, after Brother Lee made such a heartfelt repentance and solemn charge, there was very little mention of Brother Lee’s repentance in the messages of the “seven annual feasts.” There has also been virtually no reference at all to Brother Lee’s charge to learn from our past mistakes. It seems that the “blended co-workers” did not get the message in Brother Lee’s repentance. It seems that none of them dared to say that Brother Lee could have made any mistake; nor dared to remind us that we should study and analyze our teachings regarding receiving believers by comparing them with God’s Words. Nobody dares to suggest that, if there is anything in Brother Lee’s teachings that might have led to those mistakes, we should adjust it. On the contrary, what we have heard from the podium in the past nine years has been the absolute exaltation of Brother Lee’s ministry and the repetition of Brother Lee’s messages. Some of the teachings have
even gone beyond Brother Lee’s teachings and they contain an exclusive spirit that we should analyze and guard against according to Brother Lee’s final charge. As a result, there has been no encouragement for us to learn from our past mistakes. Therefore we continue to repeat the same mistakes, and even commit more mistakes than we did under Brother Lee’s leadership.

I began to ponder why the leading brothers in the recovery did not take heed to Brother Lee’s words of painful repentance and his solemn final charge. Don’t they consider themselves as the faithful followers of Brother Lee? How come they did not follow Brother Lee’s crucial charge after he made his repentance? One day, I suggested to a brother that we should learn from Brother Lee’s repentance and his mistakes. He
immediately said that Brother Lee did not make any mistake, rather Brother Lee repented because the churches and the saints made mistakes. He condemned me for suggesting that Brother Lee ever repented for his mistakes. I was amazed by what I heard. Later, I realized why he said this when I found this opinion presented on the www.AFaithfulWord.com website. The following is a direct quote from the web site:
http://www.afaithfulword.com/articles/Offending.html
What Witness Lee Said
What Brother Lee said in the Chinese-speaking conference was his observation and realization before the Lord that the churches receiving his
ministry had at times failed in the past to live up to that standard: We have much to learn concerning receiving people according to God and
according to His Son. Because of our negligence in this matter in the past, we have offended the Body of Christ and many brothers and sisters in the Lord. For this reason, I had a deep repentance before the Lord. Brothers and sisters, I hope that we can see our past mistakes by getting into this message through pray-reading, studying, reciting, and prophesying. Of course, sectarianism in the denominations is wrong; it is something very much condemned by God. Nevertheless, those who are genuinely saved in the
denominations are children of God and have been received by God. Hence, we also should receive them, but we would never participate in the division in which they are. (The Experience of God's Organic Salvation Equaling Reigning in Life, p. 69

The understanding of Brother Lee’s repentance presented in the above quote is totally different from those who listened to Brother Lee’s words in his original language– Mandarin Chinese. This writer changes the focus away from Brother Lee himself and asserts that it was “the churches receiving his ministry [which] had at times failed in the past…” I began to wonder how this could have happened. A careful study of the above printed version of Brother Lee’s repentance (The Experience of God's Organic Salvation Equaling Reigning in Life, p. 69) shows that there is a significant difference between LSM’s printed version and Brother Lee’s original words. The LSM printed version has diluted Brother Lee’s spirit of painful repentance and eliminated key words such as “I myself included.” A literal translation of Witness Lee’s spoken words is: “We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included;” By omitting this, the printed version gives the readers a much different feeling about Brother Lee’s original words and it gives room for further dilution or even wrong interpretation. It is sad that the writer of the above quote chose to gloss over Brother Lee’s spirit of painful repentance and claim that Brother Lee’s words of repentance were “his
observation and realization before the Lord that the churches receiving his ministry had at times failed in the past to live up to that standard,” clearly implying that Brother Lee did not repent for his own mistakes; Yet, Brother Lee was not merely repenting on behalf of the local churches; He was repenting (perhaps more so) for his own past mistakes.
www.AFaithfulWord.com is the official web site of the “blended brothers” or “blended co-workers” for them to address pressing issues in the recovery. The views expressed there should also represent the “blended co-workers’” view. This probably explains why there was very little mention of Brother Lee’s repentance in the messages of the “seven annual feasts” in the last nine years; and why there has also been virtually no mentioning at all about Brother Lee’s charge to us to learn from our past mistakes.

Important Questions

My question is: How could these “blended co-workers”, who claim to be the absolute followers of Brother Lee and the continuation of his ministry totally miss his crucial charge at the end of his life? Many of them were in that final meeting with Brother Lee. Some of them can understand Brother Lee’s Mandarin Chinese perfectly and the others heard the literal translation from the translator. There is no excuse that
they did not know Brother Lee’s spirit of painful repentance and his crucial charge to the co-workers, church leader and the saints in general. Yet these “blended co-workers” evidently decided, not only to ignore Brother Lee’s final crucial charge, but also dilute his spirit of repentance in printed version and then interpret the printed message quite contrary to what Brother Lee meant in his final public message. By doing so they have taken away an unique opportunity for many co-workers, many church leaders and many saints in the recovery to learn from our past mistakes, repent for them and make adjustments so that we will not repeat the same mistakes of offending the Body of Christ. It is ironic that the writer of www.AFaithfulWord.com, who has twisted Brother Lee’s words to the opposite direction, placed his article under the group title: A Pattern of Twisting with an attempt to show how others have twisted Brother Lee’s words. Having seen that these “blended co-workers” have ignored and misinterpreted Brother Lee’s crucial words in his last public meeting, any saint may now ask: Have these “blended coworkers” ministered faithfully in the past years according to Brother Lee’s main burden in his other messages? By observing the messages given by these “blended co-workers” in the past two years, they have intensified their promotion of many things that are not items of the common faith, such as one publication, one unique “Minister of the Age”, the “Acting God”, one global company of workers…etc. These matters have caused arguments, problems and even divisions in many localities all over the world. It appears that we are not only repeating past mistakes in the matter of receiving believers according to God, we are intensifying these mistakes: We now reject not only the believers in the denominations, but also the believers in the recovery who do not take the same stand on items that are not in the common faith. Brother Lee said, “We have much to learn.” But, where is our learning? It seems we have learned the wrong things! The Lord’s recovery is at the verge of major divisions mainly caused by the “blended co-workers’” promotion of some exclusive practices in their teachings at the
“seven feasts” in the past few years. It is time for the church leaders and the saints to learn the facts and realize that -- first, as Brother Lee confessed, we, Brother Lee included, indeed have made many mistakes and offended the Body of Christ under Brother Lee’s leadership; also Brother Lee assumed responsibility for those mistakes as he took the last opportunity of his life to make a public repentance. Second, we should take Brother Lee’s final solemn charge seriously to study, pray, fellowship and analyze the reasons for those mistakes. We should then have the courage to adjust anything, including our attitude, our spirit and the teachings we received, that are not completely according to the
Bible. With this understanding and determination, we may have an opportunity to avoid repeating the same mistakes as in the past; we may have the opportunity to recover the practices of the church life to be in line with the Scriptural truth of receiving one another
according to God. May the Lord have mercy on us.

Sober Mind
August 22, 2006

Last edited by Terry; 04-27-2011 at 12:16 PM. Reason: format
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2011, 02:57 PM   #2
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 11,094
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
A literal translation of his words reads:

"(Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God),…we coworkers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn…, too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included; I confess that, I had, for this matter and before the Lord, a very painful repentance.

I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…(a long pause) You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that we, in the past, were wrong!

Of course, denominations are wrong. The sectarianism is what God condemns the most. However, the Lord still hopes that all His children… do not have such condemnation. Such an understanding and analysis will require much effort. I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…" Those who know Mandarin Chinese could feel the pain in Brother Lee’s heart and be touched by his genuine repentance.
Those who witnessed this repentance by WL, and could "feel the pain in Brother Lee’s heart and be touched by his genuine repentance," never understand for what or to who WL repented. The repentance was purposely left so general and so vague that it could be interpreted any way one desired ... and it has. This to me is the real heart of the problem.

WL said "
we, in the past, were wrong!" Wrong about what? About "receiving people?" What does that mean, receiving people? This is like having a heartfelt, sober repentance about how we "loved people." Who repents for that? And then, who tells the entire audience that "we, in the past, were wrong!" How was I wrong? How were you wrong? How does one even begin to repent for such a vague "conviction?"

How much more profitable if WL had confessed what exactly the Spirit had convicted him for. What did the Spirit shine on? What did he do?

__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2011, 03:52 PM   #3
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 3,965
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Let's take it one step further.
Quote:
WL said "we, in the past, were wrong!"
When is "in the past"?

Is it long enough ago that we have since become right? Yet "we" have some need for an admission about the the unstated things for which we "were wrong?

Since no specific apology for any specific thing was given, do we presume that scripture should be rewritten to say "time covers a multitude of sins"? Does the fact that it was "in the past" mean that we can have a vague repentance to God, but not to those toward whom we were wrong?

Or was is just that we had wrong teachings and doctrines? Were we simply in error at some point in the past? Is Lee reticent that he allowed some to abandon the LRC because the teachings were bad, and now that they are better, they are gone and not benefiting?

Of course Lee's repentance was not that unstructured. But when he said the following, what did he mean?

Quote:
I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…(a long pause) You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that we, in the past, were wrong!

Of course, denominations are wrong. The sectarianism is what God condemns the most. However, the Lord still hopes that all His children… do not have such condemnation. Such an understanding and analysis will require much effort. I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…
Bring back what message? That we are sorry about something toward the Body of Christ? Either you (Lee) or your continuation have defined the Body of Christ as only the LRC, and then only if you are really in your spirit (nothing about The Spirit).

There is no understanding or analysis that will require effort. Lee was wrong. As a result, the LRC was wrong. Many of us even carried a lot of that wrong with us into our new found assemblies when we left the LRC. Nothing needing a lot of analysis or understanding other than "we were wrong."

And he didn't really say what they were wrong about. He still says denominations are wrong. Just don't "have such condemnation" about it. So how much condemnation is enough less than "such condemnation"? He surely didn't say to go to the Bible Answer Man and say that they were too much. He did not say to apologize to your relatives that you breathed fire upon when you went to family reunions and scoffed at their "pathetic, religious" prayers, services, etc. He didn't specify anything.

Actually, it reminds me a lot of the politically correct mentality that says you can't put a rapist or murderer in jail any more because you have to take into account his bad upbringing. So instead of prison, we all just wring our hands in quiet angst over the situation and do nothing.

And in this case, that is exactly what happened. If you weren't there but are still in the LRC, you never even heard that there was a repentance. And if you know about it, the best we can figure out (in translated form) is that Lee repented for thinking about things in a wrong way. Surely there was no effort intended to reach out to ask for forgiveness.

And from West Side Story:

Gee Officer Crumpky, we're down on our knees,
'Cause no one wants a guy with a social disease.
Hey, Officer Crumpky, what are we to do??
Gee Officer Crumpky, . . . .

(If you don't know what they said, don't bother asking. I don't think we can post it.)
__________________
Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2011, 06:30 PM   #4
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default What Message

OBW, you asked what message?

"I am really sorry…toward the Body of Christ, also really sorry, not only toward the brothers and sisters among us, but even to those in the denominations, also really sorry toward them…"

Questions would be asked just as you and Ohio are asking. Sorry for what? Agreed, it is vague. Maybe Witness Lee left it vague and open-ended so the localities could examine where they were wrong in the past.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2011, 11:47 AM   #5
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Hello all, I wanted to bring this excerpt from a post of mine from another thread since it aptly applies to this thread.

There has been ample opportunity for the churches through the ministry to get back on course. Here's a youtube video of Witness Lee from his final conference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swcs5pbzoDI

What Witness Lee spoke is evident and truly apparent. It is also in black and white how Living Stream translated his words.

This is from chapter 6 of the High Peaks book The Experience of God's Organic Salvation Equaling Reigning in Christ's Life. As the video points out there was heavy editing done on what was actually spoken which took brother Lee's words out of context. Witness Lee was calling for the brothers in the local churches to examine where we were wrong and to do so in mutual fellowship. Since his speaking wasn't brought back to the churches verbatim and since his speaking wasn't translated verbatim, how could have his burden been carried out?
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2011, 07:19 PM   #6
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,670
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

I find this fellowship to have an ugly appearance. It is one thing to repent to a brother you have offended. It is one thing to repent to the Lord in your prayer. But if you were repenting in public to tens of thousands of people it is quite another thing. For example, lets take the whole issue of PL and JI. Surely we would think this is something that WL should repent of. Not merely to the Lord, but also to certain brothers and sisters. But should he speak in detail to tens of thousands of people, many of which know nothing of the matter and have little personal involvement if any?

I imagine there is much that WL would like to repent of, and for the most part that is between him and the Lord, and in some cases it should also include brothers and sisters that he has offended. But, if I am not one of the offended parties I certainly don't wish to be involved. I think it would be horrible and a much worse offense if he were to go on and on in detail about various offenses, rather than just give me the generalities.

The one exception to this of course is if he is repenting of specific teachings that have been published under his name. In that case I think he should speak in detail, perhaps print a retraction. So if someone wants to complain that WL repentance was merely about being sectarian in the application of the one church one city doctrine and didn't include teachings on the MOTA or the One Publication, then so be it. But people have to stand before the Lord, not before me. This thread appears to be judging another man's servant. To me the proper response to this word is not to try and sit in the seat of Jesus and judge if the repentance was adequate, but rather to repent for my own actions.
ZNPaaneah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2011, 05:11 AM   #7
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 3,965
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I find this fellowship to have an ugly appearance. It is one thing to repent to a brother you have offended...
Quite an accurate assessment.

And among the things that I note about this whole event is not so much that he repented only to those in the conference — to people to whom his only repentance should have been to lead them astray and to cause them to sin — but that if that were true, then he didn't really repent to the LRC in the US because he was not speaking to us in our language. But worse than that, as you note, he really needed to repent to JI, HS, BM, AK, MR, etc., but he should go to those people for that purpose. He seemed willing to observe that he had wronged others, but was unwilling to actually make amends. Instead, he just told some others, practically on his death bed, that he was sorry about some vague uncertainty.

I believe that he incorrectly hid behind the false understanding that asking God for forgiveness for trespasses is enough. That it relieves him of the obligation to ask those he offended for forgiveness. And once again, it seems to make his whole brand of theology about being spiritual before God and not about becoming truly righteous because of God. In other words, it is not about right and wrong, but just being in the spirit. He may have been in his spirit. But his mind was not set on the Spirit to walk according to the Spirit. He did not fulfill the righteousness of the law.
__________________
Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2011, 07:28 AM   #8
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,549
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
[Mr. Lee] really needed to repent to JI, HS, BM, AK, MR, etc., but he should go to those people for that purpose. He seemed willing to observe that he had wronged others, but was unwilling to actually make amends. Instead, he just told some others, practically on his death bed, that he was sorry about some vague uncertainty.
It seemed to me that he was speaking specifically about "receiving others", i.e. our fellow christians in "sectarian" or "non-local" mode. This is the proverbial reaching over the fences which the BBs still categorically condemn.

Nothing was mentioned about the purges of JI, HS, BM, AK, MR, etc. That, I think, is a whole different kettle of fish, because that is not other christians, but christians who met in the recovery itself; i.e. not "them" but "us". He never even alluded to any wrongdoing within the recovery movement.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 01:37 PM   #9
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Those who witnessed this repentance by WL, and could "feel the pain in Brother Lee’s heart and be touched by his genuine repentance," never understand for what or to who WL repented. The repentance was purposely left so general and so vague that it could be interpreted any way one desired ... and it has. This to me is the real heart of the problem.

WL said "
we, in the past, were wrong!" Wrong about what? About "receiving people?" What does that mean, receiving people? This is like having a heartfelt, sober repentance about how we "loved people." Who repents for that? And then, who tells the entire audience that "we, in the past, were wrong!" How was I wrong? How were you wrong? How does one even begin to repent for such a vague "conviction?"

How much more profitable if WL had confessed what exactly the Spirit had convicted him for. What did the Spirit shine on? What did he do?
Re-reading this again brings out what is being repented? When repentance is general, it is not effective. Reminds me of King Saul's repentance in 1 Samuel.
As Ohio asked, How does one even begin to repent for such a vague "conviction?"
In Psalms 51 there is an example of an effective confession. A confession that is specific. A confession claiming accountability. There is no room left for speculations what the repentance is for.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 05:02 AM   #10
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wedemark, Lower Saxony
Posts: 4,549
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
"You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another.... I say again, you must, some people, a few people, come together to read, pray, speak and say…"
The only one who "must" do something here is Lee. Why is he imposing himself on the Body of Christ? Who is this guy? Why did I allow myself to be tricked into elevating this man way above the flock, where his "musts" and "need tos" and "shoulds" and "have tos" became my daily marching orders? What kind of religious twaddle did I buy into? Read an outline of one of the "Holy Word for Morning Revival" books if you don't understand what I mean. It is full of "need to" and "must" and "should". It is a ministry of need.

It reminds me of Paul, writing to the Corinthians, telling them that if someone beats them about the head and face they receive it as equivalent to 'spirituality' (2 Cor 11). Someone comes along and says that "my little finger is thicker than my father's loins" and you bear them gladly. Someone says "my father chastised you with whips but I will beat you with scorpions" and you receive this as if it were from Christ Himself?

No, brothers! For freedom Christ has set you free; stand fast therefore and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery. Not Witness Lee's slavery, or anyone else's. Paul said, "I did not take their word; no not even for an hour". Galatians 2:5

Proverbs 30 says, “The leech has two daughters.
‘Give! Give!’ they cry.
“There are three things that are never satisfied,
four that never say, ‘Enough!’:
the grave, the barren womb,
land, which is never satisfied with water,
and fire, which never says, ‘Enough!’

The more that I read this guy's ministry, and the more I sense his being never satisfied, the more that I want to say, "Enough!"
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 05:30 AM   #11
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 3,965
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The more that I read this guy's ministry, and the more I sense his being never satisfied, the more that I want to say, "Enough!"
I agree.

Like a fire, he devoured the available resources. Like dry land, he consumed our water. I could add that he robbed our fruitfulness and sent us to a spiritual grave, but then someone would point to the exuberant nature of the LRC meetings. I would counter that allowing so many people to "act out" in a meeting encourages the kind of group think that turns into riots after a win for some of the UK and other European soccer teams.

And for that reason, I have ceased to read his ministry other than to have a basis for comment on it here on this forum. And I try to make that on my own terms. I sometimes request that others provide the specifics of what/where Lee said any specific thing because I have no desire to read through a bunch of garbage trying to find a needle in a haystack when someone else has obviously found it already.

But I do find that once a particular statement is found, reading it and its context is often so instructional in seeing Lee's errors. Just like reading through those bits in The God-Men being posted on that thread is quite an eye-opener into the truth that Lee would have you believe was just fabricated lies.
__________________
Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2013, 11:40 AM   #12
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The more that I read this guy's ministry, and the more I sense his being never satisfied, the more that I want to say, "Enough!"
Amen! Aron, enough. I have had enough of teachings. Without practice, the teachings become a noisy gong.

Philippians 4:9
The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 07:29 PM   #13
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Those who witnessed this repentance by WL, and could "feel the pain in Brother Lee’s heart and be touched by his genuine repentance," never understand for what or to who WL repented. The repentance was purposely left so general and so vague that it could be interpreted any way one desired ... and it has. This to me is the real heart of the problem.

WL said "
we, in the past, were wrong!" Wrong about what? About "receiving people?" What does that mean, receiving people? This is like having a heartfelt, sober repentance about how we "loved people." Who repents for that? And then, who tells the entire audience that "we, in the past, were wrong!" How was I wrong? How were you wrong? How does one even begin to repent for such a vague "conviction?"

How much more profitable if WL had confessed what exactly the Spirit had convicted him for. What did the Spirit shine on? What did he do?

Following is an excerpt of a message from 6/27/2001 based on David's bringing the Ark from Philistine to Jerusalem.

"Now in my background brothers and sisters, I don't think that I designed some new carts or fabricated them very much, but I must admit to my shame I helped to pull them. And I regret that. I've repented about that. I've helped to pull the new cart. So what does that make me? A dumb ox? I'm sorry to say. Right? I've stumbled too. You know since that time I've believed I have gained a kind of phobia for new carts. New cart phobia. So, really! You know when I see something coming up, "let's do it this way". "I think that's the best technique", " the Best method". Whoa! That brings back some bitter memories. Really I'd like to run for my life. But, I just consider brothers and sisters, I really feel among Christians today too many new carts. Now in my background years ago we didn't call them new carts. Of course. But we used to call them "the flow". "This is this years flow". And next year we had another kind of flow. "Are you with the flow?" Well, it wasn't really a flow. But then that's what we called it. And then we called it "a move". "A new move". That was really a new cart. The result does not bring in Christ. The result is not the house of God being built. No, no! I surely can testify all these kind of new carts have damaged the people of God. They torn down the house of God. They were not profitable at all. "

Bringing Up the Ark
http://www.christiantapeministry.com/

I thought the speaker's tone was specific and remorseful for the role he took part in that brought damage to part of the body of Christ.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 07:37 PM   #14
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 11,094
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
I thought the speaker's tone was specific and remorseful for the role he took part in that brought damage to part of the body of Christ.
And who was the speaker?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2013, 07:54 PM   #15
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
And who was the speaker?
John Ingalls
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 10:58 AM   #16
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 11,094
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
What Witness Lee Said
What Brother Lee said in the Chinese-speaking conference was his observation and realization before the Lord that the churches receiving his
ministry had at times failed in the past to live up to that standard: We have much to learn concerning receiving people according to God and
according to His Son. Because of our negligence in this matter in the past, we have offended the Body of Christ and many brothers and sisters in the Lord. For this reason, I had a deep repentance before the Lord. Brothers and sisters, I hope that we can see our past mistakes by getting into this message through pray-reading, studying, reciting, and prophesying. Of course, sectarianism in the denominations is wrong; it is something very much condemned by God. Nevertheless, those who are genuinely saved in the
denominations are children of God and have been received by God. Hence, we also should receive them, but we would never participate in the division in which they are. (The Experience of God's Organic Salvation Equaling Reigning in Life, p. 69
I'm not sure why Terry posted this originally, but this article was placed online at the ConcernedBrothers.com site in the heyday of letter writing leading up to the Whistler Quarantine. Direct communications between the parties had broken down, and both sides took their arguments public, soliciting and rallying like-minded leaders around the globe.

The author, Sober Mind, obviously partial to Titus Chu and his cause, attempts to set the record straight about what WL's final repentance was all about. I have read it before, and I have read it again. Supposedly this should add credence to Titus Chu as the true follower of WL, faithful to the spirit and the letter of his ministry. Sober Mind's improvements do little to help the situation.

If Lee is genuinely repenting for not receiving, i.e. how he treated, outside Christians, then why should he be remorseful on behalf of the churches? We got all these pitiful attitudes directly from him, and now he needs to repent for us? Lee himself passed on to us his disgusting and disdaining attitudes towards all Christianity for decades. If the LC's had shortcomings in "receiving people," Lee should have owned all responsibility himself.

That's like the neighbor who continually cusses in front of his kids since the day they were born, and then one day apologizes in front of the family for his own children's poor "communication skills."

If Lee was really convicted about his attitude towards Christians, why not issue a directive to his team of editors to go back and modify all his books? Why not author a public letter of apology? Why not yank all those videos from the archives, and have a "burning?"

This has always been my complaint. If the Lord bothers WL, convicting him of past failures, why is it that all the condemnation was subsequently heaped upon the LC's. The churches did all they could to follow his ministry, and in the end they are all blamed for "not living up to the standard." WL always blamed others when things went bad.

I'll let a recent quote by aron finish my post, since he can say this so much better than I can ...
Quote:
The only one who "must" do something here is Lee. Why is he imposing himself on the Body of Christ? Who is this guy? Why did I allow myself to be tricked into elevating this man way above the flock, where his "musts" and "need tos" and "shoulds" and "have tos" became my daily marching orders? What kind of religious twaddle did I buy into?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 11:49 AM   #17
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I'm not sure why Terry posted this originally, but this article was placed online at the ConcernedBrothers.com site in the heyday of letter writing leading up to the Whistler Quarantine.
Ohio, it was due to the published work taking out of context what was spoken.
In my part of the country and in some local churches far more weight is placed upon what the Blended brothers/minstry say than what the Bible says. No need to examine, verify and validate. Just honor "the feeling of the Body".
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #18
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 11,094
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

How can it be the "feeling of the body" when it is not the Head of the body who decides this, but the officers of some publishing firm?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 11:33 AM   #19
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Ohio, quite a statement! I am saddened so many are taken in as if it did come from the Head. It is so easy to stake a claim without having the corresponding reality.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2013, 12:43 PM   #20
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 11,094
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

This statement -- "the feeling of the body" was coined in order to manipulate the body!

How is it that the leaders in Anaheim care so much for "the feeling of the body" and so little for the "feeling of the Head?"

This is just one of the ploys used by LSM in order to maintain control over member churches. They employ the teachings of Lee in order to define "the feeling of the body," rather than the word of God and prayer in order to know the feeling of the Head.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 05:46 AM   #21
alwayslearning
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 417
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

This is an example of how they use "spiritual" terms to cloak how they really operate. Who is "the body" they are referring to? Themselves as the governing body of a little part of The Body i.e. the LC system. They don't really mean "the feeling of The Body" which would be impossible for them to know. And they don't even mean "the feeling of the LC system part of The Body" which would also be impossible for them to know unless they interviewed each member individually.

The best way to cut through their "spiritual" terminology is to ask concrete questions like: please tell me the names of the members of The Body that you include when you use the term "the feeling of the body". See how long the list is. My guess is most will be LSM employees!
alwayslearning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 11:49 AM   #22
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Alwayslearning, I believe the context "the feeling of the Body" is meant to imply not every believer has the ability to discern what the feeling of the Body is. Only a select number of brothers are able to properly discern what the feeling of the Body is. Members and lurkers, please chime in with your understanding what the blended coworkers intended to communicate by "the feeling of the Body".
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2013, 05:52 PM   #23
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,571
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

I think the blended co-workers mean just about the same thing as when Witness Lee said "different flavor". Of course when Lee said different flavor he meant something different from his PERSONAL opinions and his PERSONAL feelings. And this "flavor" ran the entire gambit, all the way from the smallest of non-essentials all the way up to the essential core matters of the Christian faith.

Now "Brother Lee" has become "Brothers we" Why they have switched from "the flavor" to "the feeling of the body" is anybody's guess. Maybe they think it's a little more spiritual sounding than "What would Witness Lee feel?" But this is EXACTLY what they mean by the feeling of the Body. It's simply their attempt to follow Lee's person and work. They have virtually abandoned the biblical, orthodox and traditional Christian way of following the Person and work of Jesus Christ and His Holy Word. The results of this abandonment are being played out, in real time, right before our eyes. May God have mercy.
__________________
Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 05:29 AM   #24
alwayslearning
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 417
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Now "Brother Lee" has become "Brothers we"
Like you every time I think of this I LOL!

Their God-has-one-MOTA doctrine has changed to a collective. I guess God changed His mind after Witness Lee. How do we know this. They said so!
alwayslearning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2013, 11:56 AM   #25
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,206
Default Re: Why Did We Totally Miss the Mark?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
I think the blended co-workers mean just about the same thing as when Witness Lee said "different flavor". Of course when Lee said different flavor he meant something different from his PERSONAL opinions and his PERSONAL feelings. And this "flavor" ran the entire gambit, all the way from the smallest of non-essentials all the way up to the essential core matters of the Christian faith.

Now "Brother Lee" has become "Brothers we" Why they have switched from "the flavor" to "the feeling of the body" is anybody's guess.
UntoHim, maybe!
If we're talking about opinions and feelings, the blended brothers cannot cloak it as "feeling of the body" and expect just by merely invoking the phrase, there is a corresponding reality. The following excerpt is what I sent in a PM to alwayslearning yesterday, "Unless LSM brothers are open to fellowship with brothers who may not agree with them, they cannot know the feeling of the Body." Furthermore there is a concept I gained in the local churches once a brother or sister committed some offense and subsequently repented for their offense, they could never be trusted. I now realize the matter of forgiveness has no bearing on what feelings are.

If the concept of "the feeling of the Body is only designated brothers can discern "feeling of the Body". You can either call that a clergy/laiety system (as in the Dark ages only the clergy had discernment of the Word) or you could call as (UntoHim's post indicated) the new terminology for "the flavor". Which of course only a select few could discern what the current flavor is.
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:52 PM.


3.8.9