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Old 10-05-2010, 06:25 PM   #1
ZNPaaneah
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Default Answered Prayer

I have shared a number of testimonies on the Bereans website so I don’t want to bore anyone by repeating those. (I left the LC in 1997 after being in the LC for almost exactly 20 years.)

Instead, the Lord answered a prayer of mine today that I think might help many here. I know how confused I was when I left the LC. Were my experiences genuine or was I just deceived?

So the Lord asked me today, “how did you feel when you left the LC?” I felt terrible, like I had lost my one true love. “So why didn’t you fight?” I didn’t want to hurt anyone, I thought the church would be better off without me. “Now how do you feel when you learned of how the LC has been overrun with wolves? I felt sick. “You don’t want to gloat?” No, I feel sick, I should have done something. “That” He said, “is love. Your experience was genuine.”
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Old 10-06-2010, 09:09 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I know how confused I was when I left the LC. Were my experiences genuine or was I just deceived?
Welcome to the forum ZNPaaneah!

This kind of reminds me of that adage - "it's possible to be sincere, but sincerely wrong". Likewise, I think most of us had some genuine experiences of Christ, and yes even the Church, in the Local Church. Yet at the very same time we were being deceived. In my observation and experience this is the work of the enemy. If he can get us to a place where we are close to the truth, but keep us at arm’s length from the actual truth, or the whole truth, most of his work is done. Well meaning and religious people will do the rest of the work for him.


Again welcome to the forum and we look forward to your participation.
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: Answered Prayer

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I have shared a number of testimonies on the Bereans website so I don’t want to bore anyone by repeating those. (I left the LC in 1997 after being in the LC for almost exactly 20 years.)

Instead, the Lord answered a prayer of mine today that I think might help many here. I know how confused I was when I left the LC. Were my experiences genuine or was I just deceived?

So the Lord asked me today, “how did you feel when you left the LC?” I felt terrible, like I had lost my one true love. “So why didn’t you fight?” I didn’t want to hurt anyone, I thought the church would be better off without me. “Now how do you feel when you learned of how the LC has been overrun with wolves? I felt sick. “You don’t want to gloat?” No, I feel sick, I should have done something. “That” He said, “is love. Your experience was genuine.”
ZNPAH........
Our experiences in the LC were genuine as long as we sought the Lord in His Word and genuine fellowship with the saints. In the early days...the 70s...I truly believe the Presence, the Power, the Anointing, the Love, the Revelation of the Word of God was upon us. We had a heart after God's own heart as David did. We experienced and still experience the power of the Cleansing Blood because we repented, not only that we would receive eternal salvation but we repented for not always having a pure heart. We'd repent for not loving the LORD more, for not praying/reading the scriptures more. That was the early days. We loved telling people about Jesus because we knew what it was to be set free and we knew what it was to have the Joy of the LORD not only individually but we rejoiced daily with the saints. (while not always in perfect harmony, for sure.) Still, we were among saints who loved Jesus, who Loved studying the Word, privately and together. We were among the saints who as much as in us was spoke the Word of God encouraging one another, loved one another, loved the church life, learned to forgive. We certainly did not do it perfectly and not always with a pure heart but with a zealous heart. We wanted to be good brothers, good sisters. We wanted God to be pleased with us and we wanted the saints to be pleased with us. Sometimes we tried too hard.

Eventually the leaven grew...Pride, Control, Criticism of those who did not have the 'vision' we had. We began to put our trust more in a man to teach us than to put our trust in God the Holy Spirit to reveal and to TEACH US the Word of God.

The Blood of Jesus is as powerful and effectual today as it was back then. Behold HE makes all things NEW ! Praise You Lord Jesus and with hearts filled with Gratitude, Thank You Precious Lord for restoring our health and healing our wounds in Christ Jesus.
[I will give you back your health
and heal your wounds,” says the Lord.
“For you are called an outcast—
‘Jerusalem for whom no one cares.’”]


Jeremiah 30:17

Thanks for sharing ZNPAH
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Old 10-06-2010, 04:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Answered Prayer

Thank you. I feel that the pride and arrogance led to the sectarianism. I didn't realize until recently how much this came from the LSM. Personally I have come to realize that the LC has embraced a ministry of condemnation instead of a ministry of reconciliation. It is like the word "ruthless". I have always enjoyed the fact that the Bible is not "ruthless".

If you look at that story it would have been easy to and Biblical to condemn Ruth. But Boaz looked at it differently. Everyone saw that Ruth was a Moabitess, Boaz saw that she was the widow of an Israelite. Everyone else was concerned about their own inheritance, Boaz was concerned about her inheritance.

To me that is the essence of the ministry of reconciliation.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: Answered Prayer

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I have shared a number of testimonies on the Bereans website so I don’t want to bore anyone by repeating those. (I left the LC in 1997 after being in the LC for almost exactly 20 years.)

Instead, the Lord answered a prayer of mine today that I think might help many here. I know how confused I was when I left the LC. Were my experiences genuine or was I just deceived?

So the Lord asked me today, “how did you feel when you left the LC?” I felt terrible, like I had lost my one true love. “So why didn’t you fight?” I didn’t want to hurt anyone, I thought the church would be better off without me. “Now how do you feel when you learned of how the LC has been overrun with wolves? I felt sick. “You don’t want to gloat?” No, I feel sick, I should have done something. “That” He said, “is love. Your experience was genuine.”
Thank you for sharing this conversation with the Lord.

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Thank you. I feel that the pride and arrogance led to the sectarianism. I didn't realize until recently how much this came from the LSM. Personally I have come to realize that the LC has embraced a ministry of condemnation instead of a ministry of reconciliation. It is like the word "ruthless". I have always enjoyed the fact that the Bible is not "ruthless".

If you look at that story it would have been easy to and Biblical to condemn Ruth. But Boaz looked at it differently. Everyone saw that Ruth was a Moabitess, Boaz saw that she was the widow of an Israelite. Everyone else was concerned about their own inheritance, Boaz was concerned about her inheritance.

To me that is the essence of the ministry of reconciliation.
Loved your little "Ruthless" comments about the Lord and His word.
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Old 10-07-2010, 02:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Answered Prayer

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Thank you. I feel that the pride and arrogance led to the sectarianism. I didn't realize until recently how much this came from the LSM. Personally I have come to realize that the LC has embraced a ministry of condemnation instead of a ministry of reconciliation. It is like the word "ruthless". I have always enjoyed the fact that the Bible is not "ruthless".

If you look at that story it would have been easy to and Biblical to condemn Ruth. But Boaz looked at it differently. Everyone saw that Ruth was a Moabitess, Boaz saw that she was the widow of an Israelite. Everyone else was concerned about their own inheritance, Boaz was concerned about her inheritance.

To me that is the essence of the ministry of reconciliation.
One more thing that came to me ZNPAH.

Back peddling, I want to share something several sisters fellowshipped/prayed about (among many other things) this past weekend. Several former LC sisters have been getting together every year for the last 4 -5 yrs for an informal but wonderful 'retreat'. We come from all over though most are from Texas.

One of the fellowship/prayer items was our concern for how the church -not the LSM church- the CHURCH as a whole is filthy and defiled. So much idolotry/fornication. We prayed for the Lord to sanctify, purify, set apart His church that we would all be pure, spotless, without blemish or wrinkle.

Without bringing up the LC, we all know in our hearts, this was one topic greatly spoken of during the 70s in the LC. It's all biblical, scriptural and I do thank God for this incredible revelation.

This is why we took pride in being in the LC. We were after God's own Heart and we realized Jesus loves the church and we loved the church. The problem that snuck in was we, the LCrs considered ourselves to be THE church, thanks to Lee's teaching. NO ALL believers are THE CHURCH.

But back to my point...our hearts were in the right place in the beginning. This is why we dressed alike, talked alike, prayed alike. We wanted to be set apart..to be sanctified. I don't think we initially dressed alike to be sectarian. We dressed alike because we didn't want to be tainted by the world.

As time went on, little by little many began to realize Lee didn't question our sectarianism. He approved it and embraced it. Before long, most saints simply dressed, talked, prayed and read all of Lee's teachings..putting him and the LC which is now the LSM (for all intent and purposes) above CHRIST. We stopped reading/searching the scriptures for ourselves. "Lee said it" and that was THAT.

I can't speak for ALL the localities but I believe for the most part the saints in the LC during the 70s had a unique Anointing because not only did we love the Lord but we loved one another. Yeah...we didn't have 'friends' for the most part but nonetheless we DID love one another as Christ loves the church. And today many former LCrs and even current LSMrs are FRIENDS. We also HAVE friends outside the 'LC'. I have several NON Christian friends and many NON Christian relatives who I get along with great and who also get along with me Great! They know my 'stand' but I don't push the Word of God on them.

If only we would have stuck to the Word of God, to reaching out to one another and to the universal church WITH LOVE and to the unbelievers..pointing them to CHRIST, maybe, just maybe, the Anointing would not have lifted, the Holy Spirit...the Life Giving Spirit, the Word of God would not have left us. The GOOD NEWS God's anointing is still on us as we look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our Faith.

We all are thankful you have joined the forums. This is a much 'calmer', 'sweeter' forum than the other one. We hope you will continue to post and share your thoughts from the Lord.
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Old 10-07-2010, 05:01 PM   #7
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Thank you. (Please don’t call me ZNPAH, Paaneah is one of the names the Bible uses for our Lord, so Z or ZNP would be a lot better). While reading your post I was reminded to be thankful in all things. It occurred to me that due to my poverty I was actually quite blessed. I was a volunteer for the Irving hall for 1 1/2 years, there was a lot of talk about the ministry of course, and I helped print the ministry, but I couldn't afford to buy it. So I spent all of my time in the Bible. (Prior to that I had been a full time student on a fixed budget. When I did buy a book I would read it through multiple times before I could buy a second. I only bought a few and they were mostly Watchman Nee.) I then went to Odessa which was just a home meeting when I went, we didn't have a book room or a standing order or anything like that, so again I heard a lot of testimonies about the ministry, but my time was spent almost exclusively in the Bible. Later I went to the FTTT and again, because of the weight restrictions I had to leave virtually every book I had behind. The only books I took were my bibles and hymnals. I even had to leave my concordance which became a blessing because I had to learn how to find verses without it. This gave me a completely different way to look at the Bible. In Taiwan I was somewhat in a bubble because of my poor Chinese. I didn't return until 1995, by then the LC seemed like a very different place. Also, after 1986 I tried buying the ministry books but couldn’t stomach them.

As I become older and look back I am ashamed of the way I have treated others. Having sins and offenses that are small compared to what others have done doesn't seem to be much of a justification anymore.

The Lord reached down and had mercy on me. I need that attitude. I often imagine the shame I will feel if I appear before the Lord and I had been unwilling to show mercy on others for fear I would get my "clothes" dirty. Being unwilling to follow the Lord’s example has to be one of the blemishes he was referring to in the verse you quoted.

Recently I got a PM from a brother on the other site and he said his desire was that the LSM would publish a repentance to deal with past sins. Well, the Lord said that "we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us". We can't control what the LSM does, but we can control what we do. This forum (and the other one) has helped me to understand many things, especially what others were going through. This afternoon I was repenting of fearfulness. I realized to my shame that my fearfulness exposed divisive thoughts that needed to be repented of. Why was I afraid of a saint, what does that say about my thoughts?

I am happy to hear about your retreat and fellowship. Most of my contact is with Christians who never had any contact with the LC. We have had some wonderful experiences. In September of 2000 we had a large rally in front of the UN. We filled the park across the street. We were meeting about the Christians who were being persecuted in Sudan. We were going to have a second meeting but it was cancelled due to 9/11. These saints always want to know what it is like to be a missionary. I feel so limited in what I have shared with them. The Pastor is familiar with WL and has asked me a lot of questions. He wanted to know if it was a cult, I gave him all my life studies and told him he could make his own decision. One of my favorite meetings of the year is the thanksgiving dinner. We spend the entire day serving thanksgiving dinner to any and all that come in. Many are poor, some are homeless or living in shelters, and several hundred of the saints also show up at some point in the day. It is the most relaxed meeting of the year. New Year’s eve is another one of my favorite meetings. The entire meeting hall is packed with several thousand saints to greet the new year on our knees. Afterwards we eat and fellowship until about 2 or 3.
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Old 10-08-2010, 10:16 AM   #8
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The problem that snuck in was we, the LCrs considered ourselves to be THE church, thanks to Lee's teaching.
Maybe it didn't hit you the same way or at the same time, but in early 1973, I already was pretty clear that there was THE church (us) and then there were the divisions (everyone else). I had even already heard Nee and Lee referred to as apostles before Spring began that year.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:33 PM   #9
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Maybe it didn't hit you the same way or at the same time, but in early 1973, I already was pretty clear that there was THE church (us) and then there were the divisions (everyone else). I had even already heard Nee and Lee referred to as apostles before Spring began that year.
I think I had a somewhat unique experience compared to a lot of these posts. I was saved into the LC off of Rice Univ, by a brother who preached the gospel every day that I knew him, David Campbell. He was not your typical anything. The LC could not get a campus ministry on Rice because they couldn't get anyone admitted. As a result all of our fruit had to come from the gospel. As a result no one told me anything about what I could or couldn't do, I met with Campus Crusade, I took a religion course where I met my first "fruit". Mike became the 2nd brother on the campus and very soon we had 3 and then 4. I wrote articles in the school paper. I invited a professor to the meeting who wrote for a major Texas magazine and put an article about the church in the magazine.

(From what I have read this experience is quite different from what one of Jame's Barber's kids had at Austin. They seemed to treat it as a federal offense that he had met with christians on campus.)

I would credit David Campbell for shielding me from all this garbage. He was supposed to have died as a kid, but they saved his life with a very unique therapy. He gave his life to the Lord and just preached from then on. My first year in the LC I stayed at his house with his wife and son. Every Lord's day we would get up around 5 and drive out to some gospel contact of his from preaching that week. We would knock on the guys door for 5 minutes and then go back to the car. I would look at him like he was crazy, we drove an hour out here, the guys in there, I'm not leaving until he opens that door. I would go back and bang on the door for another 15 minutes until he opened the door. He would try to give us some excuse, but we wouldn't budge, then we would take another 20 minutes while he got dressed. On the way to the Church we would stop to get him something to eat. In the end we would walk into a 10am meeting about 30 minutes late. David lived across the street from the meeting hall, so we quickly developed a reputation as being the "delinquents" the guys who couldn't even get to the meeting on time.

But by my senior year on campus our gospel preaching was prevailing. No other word to describe it. There were four of us that ate lunch together (all students) and David would show up as often as he could. Each day we picked a different cafeteria. Before that year was out everyone on that campus knew who we were. We worked as a team. One brother loved to initiate the conversation and then just sit back. I would usually jump in and share something I had just enjoyed that day, something I had never shared with anyone. Before I finished Mike would jump in with his NT and point out verse references to support whatever I had shared and then David would ask the person to pray. There was no "plan" this is just how it worked out. We never tried to use the LSM, we wanted something that was fresh from our own experience.
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Old 10-08-2010, 03:33 PM   #10
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... Your experience was genuine.”
Thank you!
That was my experience...I just couldn't express it so clearly!
 
Old 10-08-2010, 04:59 PM   #11
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Maybe it didn't hit you the same way or at the same time, but in early 1973, I already was pretty clear that there was THE church (us) and then there were the divisions (everyone else). I had even already heard Nee and Lee referred to as apostles before Spring began that year.
I didn't enter the LC until 1975 Mike H. I did not know about 'the church' -us- and them -degraded Christianity-. I left around 78/79 too btw. Wasn't around for the big 80's showdown.
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Old 10-08-2010, 05:20 PM   #12
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Thank you. (Please don’t call me ZNPAH, Paaneah is one of the names the Bible uses for our Lord, so Z or ZNP would be a lot better).

I didn't know it was offensive to you. You have a unique name. Perhaps you can explain to us/me what made you choose that particular name, Z. I had no idea Paaneah is one of the names the Bible uses for our Lord. Thanks for the gold nugget.

Quote:
While reading your post I was reminded to be thankful in all things. It occurred to me that due to my poverty I was actually quite blessed.
I believe this is how I started to experience more blessings in my life too. I recall thanking the Lord for beautiful days, for my job, for my family, for my friends, for all He's done for me.

Quote:
I was a volunteer for the Irving hall for 1 1/2 years, there was a lot of talk about the ministry of course, and I helped print the ministry, but I couldn't afford to buy it. So I spent all of my time in the Bible.
Truly a blessing in disguise ! And yet, as a sidebar, interesting how no one bought you a book ! When I got saved in the LC, the saints gave me a small NT until I bought my own bible.

Quote:
(Prior to that I had been a full time student on a fixed budget. When I did buy a book I would read it through multiple times before I could buy a second. I only bought a few and they were mostly Watchman Nee.)
I don't think I've ever read any of Nee's or Lee's books from cover to cover. I read the Life studies and my bible. Back in my day, we had the KJ and the NASB not the RcV.

Quote:
As I become older and look back I am ashamed of the way I have treated others.
I've been there too but God is soo much bigger, much more patient and much more Merciful and Gracious to us. Jesus already nailed our guilt and shame on the cross and His Blood has cleansed us. I'm sure many of those we've mistreated have had their memories erased by God so that HE can work on them. Remember. Jesus is the Savior and Deliverer. We aren't.

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The Lord reached down and had mercy on me. I need that attitude.
Me too !! And boy has He ever given me an attitude adjustment !!

Quote:
I often imagine the shame I will feel if I appear before the Lord and I had been unwilling to show mercy on others for fear I would get my "clothes" dirty. Being unwilling to follow the Lord’s example has to be one of the blemishes he was referring to in the verse you quoted.
His Word tells us if we confess our sins, He is JUST and forgives them all...past, present and to come. Behold HE makes all things NEW! Let not your heart be troubled ZNP.

Quote:
This afternoon I was repenting of fearfulness. I realized to my shame that my fearfulness exposed divisive thoughts that needed to be repented of.
Very Good ! While I too have experienced what you've experienced, and probably MOST of us have, I hold on to His Word that He didn't give us a spirit of Fear.

Quote:
Why was I afraid of a saint, what does that say about my thoughts?
That you're human...like the rest of us. God is still working on us all.

Quote:
Most of my contact is with Christians who never had any contact with the LC. We have had some wonderful experiences.
Me too ! And most of my close non-LC Christians don't go 'to church' anymore either. So when we get together, we are soo FREE. No pretentiousness.

Quote:
In September of 2000 we had a large rally in front of the UN.
Thanks for sharing all your experiences thus far. They are very interesting. May the Lord continue to strengthen you and fill you with the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding.
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Old 10-08-2010, 07:03 PM   #13
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ZaphNaph-Paaneah -- Its in Genesis 45. I wanted an Egyptian name for Jesus. So I am reminded that Jesus is the savior of the world.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:20 PM   #14
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ZaphNaph-Paaneah -- Its in Genesis 45. I wanted an Egyptian name for Jesus. So I am reminded that Jesus is the savior of the world.
Fascinating, I would have never guessed.
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:42 AM   #15
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I'm sure many of those we've mistreated have had their memories erased by God so that HE can work on them.
If that were true then how do you explain many of the testimonies on these forums?

We need to stop being afraid of dealing with these past offenses in the way that the Lord prescribed. "Perfect love casteth out fear". The Lord's way is that we confess our sins one to another. In the event that this doesn't work "go and tell your brother his fault, if he hears you, you have won your brother" -- the goal is reconciliation.

I have read many testimonies here that are genuine, true offenses. But I have seen very little evidence of reconciliation. To be the big elephant in this room is a lack of reconciliation. I can't do anything about PL, BP, LSM, et al., but I can take care of my own life.

Last edited by ZNPaaneah; 10-09-2010 at 07:45 AM. Reason: Make it clearer what I was referring to
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Old 10-09-2010, 04:46 AM   #16
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Fascinating, I would have never guessed.
It is no nice to be able to speak with people in a normal way without all the pretense. On the other hand it is nice to remember the Lord is watching whenever you speak.
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Old 10-09-2010, 05:38 AM   #17
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It is no nice to be able to speak with people in a normal way without all the pretense. On the other hand it is nice to remember the Lord is watching whenever you speak.
I had assumed at first that your forum name was Chinese, perhaps one of your children's names or a place where you lived.

What is the significance of an Egyptian name for Jesus?
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Old 10-09-2010, 06:37 AM   #18
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I had assumed at first that your forum name was Chinese, perhaps one of your children's names or a place where you lived.

What is the significance of an Egyptian name for Jesus?
I wrote a book "Glory to the Coming King". The publisher wanted to know what name I wanted to use for the author. Since the book quoted many scriptures I felt it was appropriate to give the Lord's name as the author. So I wanted "an Egyptian" name so the world wouldn't get turned off.
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Old 10-09-2010, 07:52 AM   #19
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ZaphNaph-Paaneah -- Its in Genesis 45. I wanted an Egyptian name for Jesus. So I am reminded that Jesus is the savior of the world.
And Joseph, a type of Jesus, married a gentile bride-an Egyptian-.

Thanks for the explanation
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Old 10-09-2010, 08:07 AM   #20
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ZNPaaneah;8753]If that were true then how do you explain many of the testimonies on these forums?
The Holy Spirit is the one Who convicts our consciences. God shines His Light in our darkness. I cannot speak for everyone when I made my comment/observation. It was a personal comment I made from my personal experience. I have asked the Lord to forgive me for how I treated certain people in the past. Some who were across the country that I thought I'd never see ever again. When I asked the Lord to forgive me, I had a tearful repentant heart. Psalm 51:17 tells us a broken and a contrite heart God will not despise.

Some years later, the LORD supernaturally connected us. I was given the opportunity to ask this person's forgiveness for how I shunned them. Long story short while our lives have taken different directions nevertheless God has healed our wounds.

It is not cut and dry for others.

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I can't do anything about PL, BP, LSM, et al., but I can take care of my own life
I ought to clarify, these offenses that have the Lord has forgiven me of were not directed to anyone in the LSM/LC. This was a personal matter totally outside the LRC.
The LRC conflicts is a total different elephant for sure.
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:00 AM   #21
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And Joseph, a type of Jesus, married a gentile bride-an Egyptian-.

Thanks for the explanation
You lost me.
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Old 10-09-2010, 10:26 AM   #22
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The Holy Spirit is the one Who convicts our consciences. God shines His Light in our darkness. I cannot speak for everyone when I made my comment/observation. It was a personal comment I made from my personal experience. I have asked the Lord to forgive me for how I treated certain people in the past. Some who were across the country that I thought I'd never see ever again. When I asked the Lord to forgive me, I had a tearful repentant heart. Psalm 51:17 tells us a broken and a contrite heart God will not despise.

Some years later, the LORD supernaturally connected us. I was given the opportunity to ask this person's forgiveness for how I shunned them. Long story short while our lives have taken different directions nevertheless God has healed our wounds.

It is not cut and dry for others.

I ought to clarify, these offenses that have the Lord has forgiven me of were not directed to anyone in the LSM/LC. This was a personal matter totally outside the LRC.
The LRC conflicts is a total different elephant for sure.
Great point. Do you remember the story about the good Samaritan? Do you remember the question that the Lawyer asked which prompted the story? Luke 10:25 "Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?". This is what I said concerning Ruth. As long is our focus on what we need to do for ourselves we can never rise to the level of the ministry of reconciliation.

So the Lord asked him what is written in the Law, he said "thou shalt love the Lord thy God...and thy neighbor as thyself". The Lord replied "this do and thou shalt live". "But he, willing to justify himself" -- he was convicted by the ministry of condemnation so it led to the ministry of reconciliation.

You know this story. But how does it end?

"Which now of these three thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, "go and do thou likewise". (Luke 10:36-37).

We are all those that have fallen among thieves. Maybe some were walking alone, maybe some were skipping, maybe your testimony is that two of you were walking together when you were jumped. Hopefully we have all had our wounds healed. Some will come to this site seeking healing and hopefully our testimonies will help.

But it doesn't stop there. The story is not over just because your wounds have healed and you have left the hospital. Then you need to "go and do likewise".

If your wounds have not healed you are in no condition to go and do likewise. Maybe you are afraid of old wounds, but can't you focus instead on helping those that are being jumped right now? Let us believe that God is sovereign.

"For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation." (2Cor 1:5-7)

I know this is a "testimony" thread. Will you let me slide if I just say that this is my experience? Thanks
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Old 10-09-2010, 12:46 PM   #23
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Truly a blessing in disguise ! And yet, as a sidebar, interesting how no one bought you a book ! When I got saved in the LC, the saints gave me a small NT until I bought my own bible.

I also was given a NT when I first came. This was about 4 years later in Irving. This may be a surprise to many but the brothers working full time on the meeting hall were discouraged from going to the meetings. We were told directly that it wasn't necessary. I saw that the saints were really struggling during this time and felt especially burdened to go to meetings and speak words of encouragement. I find it interesting that I rarely saw John Pester in those meetings (he was in charge of the stone crew, which I was a member) and yet he is now an elder of the church.
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:18 AM   #24
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Welcome to the forum ZNPaaneah!

This kind of reminds me of that adage - "it's possible to be sincere, but sincerely wrong". Likewise, I think most of us had some genuine experiences of Christ, and yes even the Church, in the Local Church. Yet at the very same time we were being deceived. In my observation and experience this is the work of the enemy. If he can get us to a place where we are close to the truth, but keep us at arm’s length from the actual truth, or the whole truth, most of his work is done. Well meaning and religious people will do the rest of the work for him.


Again welcome to the forum and we look forward to your participation.
I am thankful to God for all of my remembrances of the saints in the LC.
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Old 10-11-2010, 05:22 AM   #25
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Some years later, the LORD supernaturally connected us. I was given the opportunity to ask this person's forgiveness for how I shunned them. Long story short while our lives have taken different directions nevertheless God has healed our wounds.
Thanks, I missed that. Yes, it cuts both ways.

My prayer is not for the healing of my wounds. It is for the fellowship in the gospel. In this case the gospel is that there is life after death. Fellowship that I think would help others.

Last edited by ZNPaaneah; 10-11-2010 at 07:22 AM. Reason: fix grammar
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Old 10-12-2010, 05:11 PM   #26
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I had assumed at first that your forum name was Chinese, perhaps one of your children's names or a place where you lived.
Names of my children?

My oldest son is named Gurion, it is hebrew for Lion cub. I named him after David Ben-Gurion, the architect of the modern Jewish state. Now the Chinese could never pronounce his name, so they called him “Glorion”. Which he hated. So if he ever gets too full of himself and you need him to get his feet back on the ground a quiet “glorion” will usually snap him out of it. His middle name is Seal (this is from my “doctrinal” period). I tied this into the tabernacle (sealskin), the Spirit, (sealing of the spirit), etc.

My daughter is Poiema (It is from Ephesians, the Greek word for Poem). But I just call her Potato. Her middle name is based on a story I didn’t want anyone to forget. Her mother went to a chinese fortune teller who told her she was going to have a son. I was stunned that a “Christian” would do such a thing and knew that God would not honor this. I initially was going to call her “See a son” with a mocking tone. However, that is of course Reuben and I didn’t want to name my daughter after him. So, after a little prayer I changed it to “See The Son” or SeeSon. I capitalized the s in Son, so it is an homage to the “double S spirit” for anyone that remembers that.

And my youngest is Zion (a little nod to my Geology background). Now he has both the best and the worst middle name at the same time. My wife was really impressed with what I had shared with her about the precious stones in the New Jerusalem. She wanted to name her son after one of the precious stones. I was unable to dissuade her so now if anyone asks I just tell them his middle name is “spitfire”. But he will have to learn to keep this to himself because if anyone ever finds out what his middle name really is he’ll never be able to live it down.

You may think the middle names are really lousy names, that was intentional. I always told my kids I only had one request of them, that is that they don’t treat me the way I treated my father. (Needless to say I don’t want my kids changing their names to their middle names. -- you had to have been there)
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Old 10-12-2010, 07:07 PM   #27
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Names of my children?...
As one who has had to live many years with what I consider an awfully stupid middle name, and though I do appreciate your using names to tell a story, yet I do feel a little compassion for the shame it may bring them. I get lots of mail with my middle name spelled out, so I often am forced to explain where that "stupid" name came from.

Unfortunately none of us names himself. So I decided to name my own children with names that would never embarrass them.

But that's just me.
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Old 10-13-2010, 03:39 AM   #28
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As one who has had to live many years with what I consider an awfully stupid middle name, and though I do appreciate your using names to tell a story, yet I do feel a little compassion for the shame it may bring them. I get lots of mail with my middle name spelled out, so I often am forced to explain where that "stupid" name came from.

Unfortunately none of us names himself. So I decided to name my own children with names that would never embarrass them.

But that's just me.
My kids just use the initial S, but to my knowledge none of them are "embarrassed". They like their names. I can't speak for the youngest, but then I did all that I could to talk his mother out of that.
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:08 AM   #29
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"If only we would have stuck to the Word of God, to reaching out to one another and to the universal church WITH LOVE and to the unbelievers..pointing them to CHRIST"

Greetings. Surely the recovery of the anointing is found in doing this you have confessed. Reaching out involves a discovery of Holy hands. Reaching out is a matter of the Word maturing in us and branching hand to hand. Peace to all who love Him.
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Old 10-13-2010, 08:16 AM   #30
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Names of my children?...

Greetings ZNPaaneah

Surely in the redemption in Christ, names are holy stones of the temple of the Name. As the names are measured into place between the headstone Jesus and the cornerstone Jesus, they open their holiness to the wearer and those that abide with them. You have a rich heritage of names.

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Old 10-13-2010, 03:59 PM   #31
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Greetings ZNPaaneah

Surely in the redemption in Christ, names are holy stones of the temple of the Name. As the names are measured into place between the headstone Jesus and the cornerstone Jesus, they open their holiness to the wearer and those that abide with them. You have a rich heritage of names.

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Thanks. It took me about a week after Ohio first posted that response before I realized that those names were a testimony. In my experience a lot of prayer went into the names and when you had the name you knew that was the Lord. I expect that other saints have a similar testimony, so I do consider the names of their children. Some have talked about how WL ministry disparaged Jews, and yet that never even occurred to me when I named my son, a good 10 years after first coming into the LC. The middle names all share aspects of the indwelling spirit. But apart from one word with two capital letters I don't see any influence from WL, on the contrary the Apostle Paul is clearly the biggest influence. So not everyone in the LC was parroting WL. You can look at the names and see what we were reading -- what stories meant the most to us. I wrote letters to each of my kids talking to them about their names, these became a kind of blessing similar to Jacob blessing his kids.

Also it takes a lot of trust to open up about your family. I feel that we have to do this to understand each other better, and in that way we lay the foundation for reconciliation.
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Old 10-18-2010, 07:27 AM   #32
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You touch many things in this brief paragraph:
1) Names
2) Witness Lee
3) Jews
4) The apostle Paul
5) Looking at names to see what we “were” reading
6) You wrote letters to each of your kids about their names- blessing them as Jacob blessed his kids.
7) Opening up about family to have way of reconciliation.
We see in Ephesians that all names come from the Father above. He has named all families in heaven and earth. So there is no accident to our names. Seeing this there is also no accident to Witness Lee’s name. According to his name he bore witness to what Watchman saw. That is the essential thing.
At this point you bring in the Jews. It is written of Israel that the nations will see that they are called by the Name of Jehovah and will fear them. Jehovah will arise in Israel and they will abide in Him so that the nations may come to know Him. Witness could see Israel’s destiny but the time to redeem Israel had not yet come. He spoke of both their history and its instruction and their future, but he did not have a present hands-on experience with the work of resurrecting Israel because the time was not yet. Such were we all.
That brings us to Paul who you accredit with influence in naming your children. Unless the Lord had sent Paul to us all would be exclusively Jewish. But as Israel was put to sleep, Paul was the rib taken out for a heavenly bride to be built upon. In the fruit of this ministry Israel shall arise and shall then shepherd the nations. The church is now the glorious open covenant heaven to Israel. Israel will then be a living book read by the nations, even as the church is such a book to Israel as we take their names into glorious redemption. Reading names.
Then at point 6 you felt as Jacob blessing his kids as you wrote about their names. In such writing the Word is God. He is near, at hand and you are changing as you write. You become Israel leaning upon the staff of God as you write. In such writing the Word is unspeakable gift that all true blessers lean upon. In such writing you become a true saint (John 17:17-20).
At point seven – reconciliation. To reconcile our family we must reconcile the family of the Jews. They are the sheep the Lord has sent to you. In this ministry the local churches become golden lampstands shining upon holy ground under their feet. Then their table becomes a holy door of return from the ends of the earth. Los Angeles becomes golden lampstand, New York becomes golden lampstand. Zurich becomes golden lampstand. So does Athens and Alexandria. All shining forth the priestly way for Israel to return to the Promise Land.
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:01 AM   #33
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ZNPaaneah
You touch many things in this brief paragraph:
Well, you have certainly read a lot into these testimonies. At this stage of my life I am more interested in seeing people that I know get reconciled than I am about human history being resolved.
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Old 10-18-2010, 09:28 AM   #34
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Ok, thanks for clarifying that.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:21 PM   #35
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Back peddling, I want to share something several sisters fellowshipped/prayed about (among many other things) this past weekend. Several former LC sisters have been getting together every year for the last 4 -5 yrs for an informal but wonderful 'retreat'. We come from all over though most are from Texas.

One of the fellowship/prayer items was our concern for how the church -not the LSM church- the CHURCH as a whole is filthy and defiled. So much idolotry/fornication. We prayed for the Lord to sanctify, purify, set apart His church that we would all be pure, spotless, without blemish or wrinkle....

But back to my point...our hearts were in the right place in the beginning. This is why we dressed alike, talked alike, prayed alike. We wanted to be set apart..to be sanctified. I don't think we initially dressed alike to be sectarian. We dressed alike because we didn't want to be tainted by the world.
A certain woman went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among thieves, which stripped her of her raiment, and wounded her, and departed leaving her half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way who was on his way to the Feast of Tabernacles dressed in his best robes: and when he saw her, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite also on the way to the feast dressed in his best robes, when he was at the place, came and looked on her, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed to the Feast, came where he was: and he saw her, he had compassion on her. And went to her, and bound up the wounds, pouring in oil and wine and put her on his own beast, and brought her to an inn. Unfortunately the Samaritan got some blood, oil, wine and vomit on his best robes. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, take care of her; and whatsoever thou spendest more when I come again , I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, will appear before the Lord on that great day pure, and spotless, without blemish or wrinkle in robes that are the righteousnesses of the saints?
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Old 11-02-2010, 01:44 PM   #36
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ZNP, I could not echo what you said any more than what you said. Too many saints have suffered condemnation via persona non grata. I recall a testimony a family friend gave me. He left the recovery in 1990, but attended Francis Ball’s memorial service in 2007. He told me how another brother regarded as persona non grata came to the memorial service. Even after 30 years, this brother (MR) was still being shunned by his former co-workers. Not just in the recovery, but among all Christians, we need a spirit of reconciliation 70 times 7.
Thanks, I got this message via a PM and thought I could respond here. When I was in Houston the elders were trying to intimidate me, I had previously shared about the experience in the meeting where I was rescued by the testimony of an 11 year old brother after the meeting (this is on the Berean site) and from Paul's word in Galatians that he didn't give place to them for an hour, and then they called me into a meeting and told me I had two strikes against me. Since I didn't know how or why I assumed I would get the third strike as well, so from then on I spoke with the thought that this may be my last testimony. So, since that didn't reign me in they arranged hospitality at the next Training in Anaheim and I stayed with the two Salassie brothers in hospitality. At the time one of these brothers was an elder (not Freddie, the other one). Every time I tried to speak during those ten days he told me to shut up. It was a miserable training. But after a couple of days I came to the meeting and there was a paper bag with a note that it was for me. That small gift while I was being "shunned" was another salvation. To me these words and gestures came straight from the Lord as a salvation.
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:05 PM   #37
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I received two questions via PM I guess to avoid any possible embarrassment.

1. The paper bag had a gift. Prior to coming into the church I had hitchhiked across the country several times. That gift was the only thing that kept me from walking out of that hospitality situation and hitchhiking back to Texas. To me it was the Lord speaking to hang in there.

2. No, there was no gag order on me. I spoke in most meetings. I did not say or do anything worthy of being "gagged". There would have been a backlash had I been gagged because by this time there were two camps when it came to the testimonies. One, led by Ed Marks and Kerry R specialized in quoting WL. I never quoted WL, to me a testimony was a personal experience, a revelation, an answered prayer, etc.

But by 1981 I wanted to leave the LC in a very strong way (primarily because of the things done in secret like this), during a conference I gave a testimony of how the Lord told me "He wouldn't let me go until He had destroyed not only Pharoah but all of Egypt".
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Old 11-03-2010, 07:55 PM   #38
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But by 1981 I wanted to leave the LC in a very strong way (primarily because of the things done in secret like this), during a conference I gave a testimony of how the Lord told me "He wouldn't let me go until He had destroyed not only Pharoah but all of Egypt".
And how did they react to that testimony?
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:51 AM   #39
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And how did they react to that testimony?
Shortly after that testimony George W moved from Dallas to Odessa, I have already shared about that (on the Berean site).

But strangely it seemed to "raise the ratings" of the conferences. The next conference I went to in Irving I looked at the microphones hanging from the ceiling. There was a very clear and obvious pattern except for one microphone which was clearly not part of the pattern and that microphone was hanging directly over my seat. These were assigned seats so it may have been a training.

I think the betting odds on me vs the elders were running about 100-1. Again, I expected to surely be excommunicated and think I surely would have had it not been for the timing that my letter and the news of Jame's Barber's cancer arrived the same day (again I already shared about that on the Berean site).
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:22 AM   #40
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No microphone for you ...
.
.
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:16 PM   #41
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ZNP, I only knew of one brother who was censured and that’s because he told me. Of course that all changed when a blended brother “offered his fellowship”.

Lead elder denies any influence by the bb on his decision to ban the brother from meeting. Just a coincidence. Or is it? Ironically, some of the other elders never knew until a much later time.

There is a big cost to censure, think of the storm created with TC or JI. Books are published, web sites go up, saints begin to discuss, the credibility of the leadership takes a hit, this has even led to more lawsuits. Has there been any growth in the overall numbers in the LC since the early 80s? The Bible says "they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony". What they want is to work behind the scenes where no one can see and then for you to curl up and die on your own. That would have the least impact.

You might believe if you didn't know JI pretty much any story they gave. The problem is too many saints do know him. But then what about John So, Bill Mallon, TC, etc. You might believe one, but not two, definitely not three, and by the fourth it is just becoming a sick joke.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:33 AM   #42
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Look at LC in terms of love, I mean love to enemies. LC saints love each other so desparetely but what's the way they treat others? Their is one answer - arrogance. Remember the 3rd chapter of Revelation. Laodicea - that's what LC is now, they think they are rich, but in fact they are poor for they don't have overcoming love to everyone even to sinners or dissidents. It's not a small thing, LC is a totaletarian sect with no freedom of conscience, may the Lord have mercy to the saints still being duped there.
 
Old 10-02-2011, 10:49 AM   #43
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I wrote a book "Glory to the Coming King". The publisher wanted to know what name I wanted to use for the author. Since the book quoted many scriptures I felt it was appropriate to give the Lord's name as the author. So I wanted "an Egyptian" name so the world wouldn't get turned off.
Mr ZNP, how is Z.N.Paaneah the Lord's name? It was a name given to Joseph, just because it's possible to extrapolate Joseph as a type of Christ does that mean them two are not unique and special in their own ways? Z.N.P. cannot be a name for Christ because Jesus hadn't even appeared yet at the time the name was given.

The Bible says somewhere that we will be given our real names by God himself one day around the time of the resurrection, I feel that ZNP knows ZNpaaneah is his real God given name but he doesn't want to accept what it means that his purpose is also to be, like the Joseph of old, the "deliverer/savior" of his people, so he made up an excuse about the name having to do with Jesus not himself. just an opinion from a seriously deranged mind.... =]
 
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