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Old 10-13-2019, 12:19 AM   #1
Trapped
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Default Fall ITERO 2019

Here is an excerpt from an outline at the recent ITERO this year, which can be found on lsm.org (reproduced here with slight formatting limitations):

B. Man is a great word in the Bible--Gen. 1:26; Psa. 8:4-6:
1. God's intention is with man, God's thought is focused on man, and God's heart is set upon man.
2. It is man who fulfills God's plan, it is man who expresses God, it is man who defeats God's enemy, and it is man who brings the kingdom of God into the human race.
3. Man is the means of God's manifestation, man is the means of God's move, and man is the means of God's administration--Ezek. 1:26, 5, 10.
C. The eternal purpose of God is to have a corporate man to express Him and represent Him; this was God's purpose in creating man--Gen. 1:26-28; 5:1-2; Eph. 3:11; 1:9, 11.

II. "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"--Gen. 1:26:
A. In the Bible there is a mysterious thought concerning the relationship between God and man--v. 26; Ezek. 1:26; 1 John 3:2b; Rev. 4:3a; 21:11b:
1. God's desire is to become the same as man is and to make man the same as He is--1 John 3:2b.
2. God's intention is to work Himself in Christ into us, making Himself the same as we are and making us the same as He is--Eph. 3:17a.
B. Let Us make man reveals that a council was held among the three of the Godhead regarding the creation of man--Gen 1:26a:
1. The decision to create man was made in eternity past, indicating that the creation of man was for the eternal purpose of the Triune God--Eph. 3:9-11.
2. God's intention in creating man was to carry out His divine economy for the dispensing of Himself into man--1 Tim. 1:4; Rom. 8:11.

===================
I don't know about anyone else here, but points II.A.1 and II.A.2 absolutely make my eyes go wide. Granted, I have not listened to the messages and do not know what the speaking was concerning these points. But first, the verses cited do not support the statement made, as is par for LSM's course. Secondly......uhhhh, NO. God's intention is NOT TO BECOME THE SAME AS US. God HAD TO become the same as us to save us, but it is NOT HIS INTENTION TO BECOME THE SAME AS WE ARE. I genuinely hope the speaking was not as twisted as the outline seems.

What on earth is going on inside the BB's heads? What on earth is going inside the heads of the hundreds of elders sitting in that room listening to and reading this stuff and not saying a peep about how this borders on heresy?

What I end up seeing is more classic local church X=Y talk which, aside from not being scriptural, ends up also being meaningless. If you had one glass of Sprite and one glass of root beer, and you said "I'm going to make this Sprite like the root beer and am going to make this root beer like the Sprite"......I would be confused at what you are trying to accomplish and what you would end up with. Are they just switching places? Are they becoming some middle-ground hybrid? It's meaningless.

I'm actually concerned for where they are heading. Usually after an ITERO, the messages spoken become the materials that the local churches "get into" in subsequent weeks. I wonder if anyone in the LCs will be concerned about this outline or if everyone will swallow it like it's the latest greatest thing from the refried oracles. Even the hyper-focus and exalting of man in the first part is strange too.
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:31 AM   #2
googlelight
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Default Re: Fall ITERO 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Here is an excerpt from an outline at the recent ITERO this year, which can be found on lsm.org (reproduced here with slight formatting limitations):

B. Man is a great word in the Bible--Gen. 1:26; Psa. 8:4-6:
1. God's intention is with man, God's thought is focused on man, and God's heart is set upon man.
2. It is man who fulfills God's plan, it is man who expresses God, it is man who defeats God's enemy, and it is man who brings the kingdom of God into the human race.
3. Man is the means of God's manifestation, man is the means of God's move, and man is the means of God's administration--Ezek. 1:26, 5, 10.
C. The eternal purpose of God is to have a corporate man to express Him and represent Him; this was God's purpose in creating man--Gen. 1:26-28; 5:1-2; Eph. 3:11; 1:9, 11.

II. "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"--Gen. 1:26:
A. In the Bible there is a mysterious thought concerning the relationship between God and man--v. 26; Ezek. 1:26; 1 John 3:2b; Rev. 4:3a; 21:11b:
1. God's desire is to become the same as man is and to make man the same as He is--1 John 3:2b.
2. God's intention is to work Himself in Christ into us, making Himself the same as we are and making us the same as He is--Eph. 3:17a.
B. Let Us make man reveals that a council was held among the three of the Godhead regarding the creation of man--Gen 1:26a:
1. The decision to create man was made in eternity past, indicating that the creation of man was for the eternal purpose of the Triune God--Eph. 3:9-11.
2. God's intention in creating man was to carry out His divine economy for the dispensing of Himself into man--1 Tim. 1:4; Rom. 8:11.

===================
I don't know about anyone else here, but points II.A.1 and II.A.2 absolutely make my eyes go wide. Granted, I have not listened to the messages and do not know what the speaking was concerning these points. But first, the verses cited do not support the statement made, as is par for LSM's course. Secondly......uhhhh, NO. God's intention is NOT TO BECOME THE SAME AS US. God HAD TO become the same as us to save us, but it is NOT HIS INTENTION TO BECOME THE SAME AS WE ARE. I genuinely hope the speaking was not as twisted as the outline seems.

What on earth is going on inside the BB's heads? What on earth is going inside the heads of the hundreds of elders sitting in that room listening to and reading this stuff and not saying a peep about how this borders on heresy?

What I end up seeing is more classic local church X=Y talk which, aside from not being scriptural, ends up also being meaningless. If you had one glass of Sprite and one glass of root beer, and you said "I'm going to make this Sprite like the root beer and am going to make this root beer like the Sprite"......I would be confused at what you are trying to accomplish and what you would end up with. Are they just switching places? Are they becoming some middle-ground hybrid? It's meaningless.

I'm actually concerned for where they are heading. Usually after an ITERO, the messages spoken become the materials that the local churches "get into" in subsequent weeks. I wonder if anyone in the LCs will be concerned about this outline or if everyone will swallow it like it's the latest greatest thing from the refried oracles. Even the hyper-focus and exalting of man in the first part is strange too.
I am not too sure if I have a problem with those points you mentioned. I truly believe that in His heart, there was a desire in Him to become the same as us, in order, that we, lost little trolls, can become One with him, whatever that means. Luther wrote: "Just as the Word of God became flesh, it is also certainly necessary to say that the flesh became Word. For the Word became flesh in order that the flesh might become Word. That is, God becomes man in order that man might become God. Likewise strength becomes weakness in order that weakness might become strength. He put on our form and figure and image and likeness in order that He might clothe us with His image, form and likeness. For wisdom becomes foolishness in order that foolishness might become wisdom; and likewise in all other things pertaining to God and to us, in all of them He took on what is ours in order to give us what is His."
But yes, using Luthers words, I can agree with you, that as an end in itself, I dont believe God wanted to become foolishness, and stop there hehe.

But thanks for the input. I find it lovely to discuss with my siblings concerning this topic.

Brother John wrote: "Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God, and we are."
I mean... Imagine what this means! year by year, this passage is more and more amazing
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:42 AM   #3
aron
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Default Re: Fall ITERO 2019

1. Plurality in creation does not force the Trinity. Job 38:4-7 says,

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?"

I don't see the "lonely Triune God" here, but verse 7 shows a multiplicity in creation. Jesus Christ is of course intrinsically part, even causally, per the NT revelation, but not necessarily in the sterile and empty theological straitjacket of LSM.

2. The emphasis on "man", suis generis, becomes a back door for one man, aka God's Humble Bondslave, aka the Deputy God, aka God's Oracle, aka Today's Moses, Today's Paul, and the Minister of the Age. You know who I mean, right? The Final Spiritual Giant. Aka "our brother".

Actually, the "man" referred to is Jesus Christ. He alone fulfills the prophecy, not "the new testament believers enjoying grace by imbibing the processed Triune God on the proper church ground" or some other convoluted phraseology.

Jesus, in the LSM oeuvre, becomes a bit player. Useful for the introduction, then superseded in the "high peaks theology". There, the focus is on "us", even "becoming God", whilst the Jesus of the gospels fades from view. If you read the NT, its authors never let him recede from view like this. There, the focus is not Paul nor the "NT believer " but Jesus. The LSM gospel gets you to focus on yourself, which allows the sleight-of-hand to follow.

Never take your eyes off Jesus.
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:47 AM   #4
Trapped
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Default Re: Fall ITERO 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by googlelight View Post
I am not too sure if I have a problem with those points you mentioned. I truly believe that in His heart, there was a desire in Him to become the same as us, in order, that we, lost little trolls, can become One with him, whatever that means. Luther wrote: "Just as the Word of God became flesh, it is also certainly necessary to say that the flesh became Word. For the Word became flesh in order that the flesh might become Word. That is, God becomes man in order that man might become God. Likewise strength becomes weakness in order that weakness might become strength. He put on our form and figure and image and likeness in order that He might clothe us with His image, form and likeness. For wisdom becomes foolishness in order that foolishness might become wisdom; and likewise in all other things pertaining to God and to us, in all of them He took on what is ours in order to give us what is His."
But yes, using Luthers words, I can agree with you, that as an end in itself, I dont believe God wanted to become foolishness, and stop there hehe.

But thanks for the input. I find it lovely to discuss with my siblings concerning this topic.

Brother John wrote: "Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God, and we are."
I mean... Imagine what this means! year by year, this passage is more and more amazing

Hi googlelight,

I see a vast difference between what you wrote and what is on the outline. What you wrote is primarily in past tense - God became man. The Word became flesh. That is not what I have a problem with, as to deny that would be to deny a central tenet of the Christian faith.

What I have a problem with, and what is either heresy or grossly irresponsible on the part of the outline writers, is to make the statement in the present tense. "God's intention is to work Himself in Christ into us, making Himself the same as we are and making us the same as He is". God's working Himself in Christ into us (what we would call sanctification) is in NO WAY God making Himself the same as us. His incarnation? Yes. But what is going on now.....2,000 years after His incarnation, death, and resurrection? No. It is not God making Himself the same as we are. The co-workers are starting to reverse the focus of exaltation, and flip what is under to be what is over.

The verse they cite for that statement is Ephesians 3:17a, which says, "so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...." Where on earth does that phrase imply that God is making (present tense) Himself the same as us?

Just my thoughts.

Trapped
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Old 10-13-2019, 01:51 PM   #5
googlelight
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Default Re: Fall ITERO 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
Hi googlelight,

I see a vast difference between what you wrote and what is on the outline. What you wrote is primarily in past tense - God became man. The Word became flesh. That is not what I have a problem with, as to deny that would be to deny a central tenet of the Christian faith.

What I have a problem with, and what is either heresy or grossly irresponsible on the part of the outline writers, is to make the statement in the present tense. "God's intention is to work Himself in Christ into us, making Himself the same as we are and making us the same as He is". God's working Himself in Christ into us (what we would call sanctification) is in NO WAY God making Himself the same as us. His incarnation? Yes. But what is going on now.....2,000 years after His incarnation, death, and resurrection? No. It is not God making Himself the same as we are. The co-workers are starting to reverse the focus of exaltation, and flip what is under to be what is over.

The verse they cite for that statement is Ephesians 3:17a, which says, "so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...." Where on earth does that phrase imply that God is making (present tense) Himself the same as us?

Just my thoughts.

Trapped
Oh I apologize! I read so many outlines in my life, that I completely stopped paying attention. Alas! I now realize what I have been; that frog in the fable that is in boiling water. That frog that rests easy in a pot of water that is warmed slowly. Frogs normally won’t go into boiling water. They’ll jump out and keep themselves away from very hot water. But, if placed in a tub of water at normal temperature that is being heated slowly, according to the anecdote, they don’t react and end up getting cooked in the boiling water.
Trapped, when I realize now what you wrote, I do believe the water actually is drawing near to the boiling point. And those stuck in the system, has been lingering there for so long, that they dont even notice how hot the water has become, like you so well point out!
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