Outer Darkness?

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Nell

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

Nell, Thanks. He is indeed quite different from the other brothers and sisters I know in the LC.

[Drake]

Fuji )"I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy"

Ok, but what are you for?

The outer darkness is....?

Drake

[Fuji]

Originally Posted by Drake

Fuji )"I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy"

Ok, but what are you for?

The outer darkness is....?

Drake

Dear Brother Drake,

Thanks for your question. I said earlier in the second post of this thread (way before it went off topic) that I don't believe there is a future millennial kingdom( I believe there are only two age, and we are waiting for the age to come, and the 1000 year now as in Rev 20 - we are experiencing now as we are kings and priests, Satan is bound because Christ is building His church now and the gate of Hades has no way to prevail it, yes he will be realease one last time yet it's said that he is immediately defeated into second death and has no victory) BUT as I said this is just my view, and who am I ? So this is NOT a dividing issue, and I don't at all like to debate. I'm for CHRIST and I may be wrong.

*BUT* even if there is a millennial kingdom coming soon, I don't believe in Lee's idea of "outer darkness", as described by Bradley and others who have posted here (which is the original topic here), I believe all who are in Christ will enter into kingdom as I believe everyone who partakes of Christ is an overcomer and no one today should be living in fear and condemnation thinking that they have not obtained victory (as I said in Nee's words, victory is not attained by us but obtained already in and through Christ).

If I remember correctly, "outer darkness" in the Bible is for "godless men" and it contrasts with the wedding feast of the Lamb. I don't know much of the nature of it (or in other's words, the nature of hell), but outer darkness signifies a separation from God, which was the first sin of Adam and Eve - wanting to live independently from God (Nee and Lee is heavy on this), in CS Lewis's words: There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened... I'm aware that Lewis believes in purgatory but that's a whole different topic. But yes, I lean closer to believing that the "outer darkness" is what some call hell because it's a separation from God. And then perhaps some will argue" but hell is the lake of fire and there is light....so it's not darkness..." but I don't believe we should take all these "literally" --- God throughout the Bible is always using various images, symbols to point to the same thing from different angles so that our finite mind can perhaps get a step closer to His infinite mind. It's like, how can He be a lamb but at the same time a lion. But paradox points us to Him!

And so it seems to me Lee's outer darkness contradicts directly to his constant emphasis of once saved always saved. At least during the past years I was in LC, this doctrine was taught all the time I think that's why in LC, with this contradiction, some like Bradley have doubts about their victory or even salvation in Christ. You may not have experienced it but it's not uncommon with former LC members or my current LC friend to suffer from this doubt. It's a heavy burden but His burden is light. He's the author and finisher of faith. My God is not a God that breeds guilt. Godly grief, yes, but not guilt. God doesn't breed a "second-class" Christian. He gives life and peace. And I believe we are all equal before the Lord in terms of standing.

Of course I can be wrong as always but like you asked what am I for? I'm for Christ and who am I? Who can give counsel to the One who knows all things? I hope all I do is to fix my eyes on Him and that I'll continue to learn from you all. I'd rather let it go than to debate. And like a little brother said earlier, I don't think it's our job to take seat of judgment to decide who is an overcomer or who is not. Thanks so much for reading.

There's also an older thread that was about this topic: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5079

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Nell, Thanks. He is indeed quite different from the other brothers and sisters I know in the LC.

You are quite different as well from other brothers and sisters I know in the LC. Most in the LC are not in the Recovery with ulterior motives, as you are. You'd be a prime candidate for the outer darkness I'm sure.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You are quite different as well from other brothers and sisters I know in the LC. Most in the LC are not in the Recovery with ulterior motives, as you are. You'd be a prime candidate for the outer darkness I'm sure.

Evangelical, Thanks. Coming from you, it sounds almost like a blessing.

Your choice of words is quite different from the people I know in the LC. Are you truly a member of the LC?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

Evangelical, Thanks. Coming from you, it sounds almost like a blessing.

Your choice of words is quite different from the people I know in the LC. Are you truly a member of the LC?

Hi A little brother,

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.

I can see why someone might pretend to be part of the LC in order to sympathize and help LC members. But someone in my position on this forum who supports the "LC" when 99% of people on this forum don't, why would I pretend to be in it?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hi A little brother,

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.

Evangelical, what is "the Recovery," and how does one join?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, what is "the Recovery," and how does one join?

Koinonia,

Can you post your question to Evangelical into an appropriate or new thread?

I'm not objecting to sidebar conversations which are a normal part of any human discussion but your question appears like an entirely different subject.

I hope we can get the conversation on this thread focused on the Outer Darkness subject.

Thanks,
Drake

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Drake

Koinonia,

Can you post your question to Evangelical into an appropriate or new thread?

I'm not objecting to sidebar conversations which are a normal part of any human discussion but your question appears like an entirely different subject.

I hope we can get the conversation on this thread focused on the Outer Darkness subject.

Thanks,
Drake

Drake, I am appropriately addressing this: Evangelical is criticizing "A little brother" for using the phrase "member of the LC," while immediately himself using the phrase "part of the Recovery."

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.

I think you know exactly what my question was and I assume your answer was yes. Let me know if I were wrong. Sorry that I sometimes had problem understanding your posts. A simple "Yes" or "No" will surely make it easier for everybody.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I can see why someone might pretend to be part of the LC in order to sympathize and help LC members. But someone in my position on this forum who supports the "LC" when 99% of people on this forum don't, why would I pretend to be in it?

Why would I know the reason that you might pretend? I explained my reason well when I asked the question on whether you are a member of the LC (Sorry, I still prefer to use this simpler form instead of the lengthy words of yours). It was that the way you behaved and the words you chose didn't seem to match the general behavioral standards of the LC people that I know.

I do not pretend to be a member of the LC. I am a member of the LC - I was baptized in the LC, I join Lord's Table meetings, I prophesy in the prophesying meetings, I join home meetings, I fellowship with LC brothers and sisters (also with others not meeting in the LC).

That doesn't mean I have to agree with all its teachings.

I do not fellowship in deceitful manner. I don't say Amen to teachings when I do not agree; I don't pray-read outlines; I don't practise "call upon the Lord's name n times"; I let others know I am studying not only LC materials but also "outside" teachings; I expressed my concerns with the "highest peak of the divine revelation";...

I am concerned that some brothers and sisters in the LC might be put to outer darkness not because they were blind, but because they say they see and consider themselves overcomers (John 9:41). And in my personal opinion, the outer darkness might not be something that ends after 1,000 years.

I don't want the LC ends up being the group of people described in Isaiah 66.

16 For with fire Jehovah will execute judgment, And with His sword, upon all flesh; And those slain by Jehovah will be many.
17 Those who sanctify and purify themselves for the gardens, Following after one in the midst, Eating swine's flesh And what is abominable and even mice, Will come to an end together, declares Jehovah.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by A little brother

I think you know exactly what my question was and I assume your answer was yes. Let me know if I were wrong. Sorry that I sometimes had problem understanding your posts. A simple "Yes" or "No" will surely make it easier for everybody.



Why would I know the reason that you might pretend? I explained my reason well when I asked the question on whether you are a member of the LC (Sorry, I still prefer to use this simpler form instead of the lengthy words of yours). It was that the way you behaved and the words you chose didn't seem to match the general behavioral standards of the LC people that I know.

I do not pretend to be a member of the LC. I am a member of the LC - I was baptized in the LC, I join Lord's Table meetings, I prophesy in the prophesying meetings, I join home meetings, I fellowship with LC brothers and sisters (also with others not meeting in the LC).

That doesn't mean I have to agree with all its teachings.

I do not fellowship with deceit. I don't say Amen to teachings when I do not agree; I don't pray-read outlines; I don't practise "call upon the Lord's name n times"; I let others know I am studying not only LC materials but also "outside" teachings; I expressed my concerns with the "highest peak of the divine revelation";...

I am concerned that some brothers and sisters in the LC might be put to outer darkness not because they were blind, but because they say they see and consider themselves overcomers (John 9:41). And in my personal opinion, the outer darkness might not be something that ends after 1,000 years.

I don't want the LC ends up being the group of people described in Isaiah 66.

16 For with fire Jehovah will execute judgment, And with His sword, upon all flesh; And those slain by Jehovah will be many.
17 Those who sanctify and purify themselves for the gardens, Following after one in the midst, Eating swine's flesh And what is abominable and even mice, Will come to an end together, declares Jehovah.

I am a little confused because you seem to believe the LC is a denomination and treat it as one. A local church member would not normally say "I am a member of the LC" and treat it as a denomination.

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.

You will not find Witness Lee refer to us as the "Local Churches" either.

The "Local Church", or "Local Church Movement", or LCM, is how outsiders refer to us, not insiders.

Maybe Drake can help shed light on this, but the language you use and the way you refer to the local churches is different to what I am used to. Or if that is how other members of your church refer to themselves then perhaps your local church has become like a denomination.

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I am a little confused because you seem to believe the LC is a denomination and treat it as one. A local church member would not normally say "I am a member of the LC".

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.

You will not find Witness Lee refer to us as the "Local Churches" either.

The "Local Church", or "Local Church Movement", or LCM, is how outsiders refer to us, not insiders.

Let's get another opinion - Drake?

Please don't waste time on this useless argument. You know what I mean well. You don't need to speak for me. I have said it previously and I will say it again. The LC is not different from denomination.

I don't use the term "we are in the Lord's Recovery". I think this is bearing false witness.

I don't use the term "we are just the church in the locality" because other denominations are also part the church in the locaility. It is not specific to the group of people who only study Witness Lee's teachings.

Hope I have expressed my view clear enough. Please also be reminded that this thread is not about discussion of denominationalism.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

First, who is "we"?

Next--you cannot rightfully say, "we are the church in the locality." Even WL taught that all believers in a given location constitute the church in that location. Not "we."

Lastly, you are in effect a movement and denomination because--whatever you call yourselves--you are identified (by yourselves and others) as followers of Witness Lee. Otherwise, you would not exist as a "we."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.

And here we have the root of the problem -- the teaching of Witness Lee.

You will play your little word games forever, not because of scripture, but because of what Lee taught. It was this duplicitous double speak by LSM / DCP at afaithfulword during the GLA quarantines that served to educate many of us long time members of the true nature of the Recovery. These master wordsmiths could, in effect, spend an entire document explaining how black was really white using their twisted logic and the vast online ministry of Witness Lee.

"When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."