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Old 11-13-2017, 11:10 PM   #1
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Default The Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne

Discussions on 'the judgement seat of Christ', 'great white throne', ...
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: the judgment seat of Christ, great white throne, ...

It is generally accepted that the Great White Throne is where unbelievers are judged and sent to the Lake of Fire.

The verse prior to this judgement, v10, is where Satan is bound and cast into the Lake of Fire.

However, in this same verse it says that the False prophet and the beast are already in the Lake of Fire.

One possible explanation, which Witness Lee seems to have taught without explicitly spelling it out, is that the False prophet is cast into the Lake of Fire 1,000 years earlier. Although WL doesn't say this, it would suggest that the False prophet was sent to the Lake of Fire during the Judgement Seat of Christ.

That is shocking since we have also been taught that this judgement is for believers and that once you become a believer the Lake of Fire is no longer an option.

Therefore how do you reconcile that in Rev 19:10 the False prophet and the Beast are already in the Lake of Fire, before Satan is cast in and before the Great White Throne judgement?

Strangely, the explanation that I currently hold is one that agrees with our basic teachings:

1. Only unbelievers get sent to the Lake of Fire
2. Unbelievers are judged at the Great White Throne
3. Believers are judged at the Judgement seat of Christ
4. Believers are not sent to the Lake of Fire.

I explain this as the False prophet has deceived himself. Just like those in Matthew that come to the Lord and say "Lord, Lord, did we not do these works of power in your name?" It is the False prophet that wants to be judged at the judgement seat of Christ, so the Lord says "fine" -- so the False prophet is the exception that confirms the rule. The only reason the False prophet is judged at the judgement seat of Christ instead of the Great White Throne is that he has deceived himself.
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:38 AM   #3
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Default Re: the judgment seat of Christ, great white throne, ...

I hold the view that the False Prophet and the Beast are exceptions to the rule and get their justice ahead of time.

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Old 11-14-2017, 05:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: the judgment seat of Christ, great white throne, ...

I would not try to explain the false prophet, for now. Sometimes when reading the bible I suddenly understand something I could not explain before. Sometimes reading bible with others and in others' speaking certain things that I did not understand before, were made clear to me.

Rev. 20: 11- 15, the 'book of life' puzzles me.
And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Then) ... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I don't even know which question to ask. May be someone has an explanation/interpretation to these verses. And then I can ask about it.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne, ...

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Discussions on 'the judgement seat of Christ', 'great white throne', ...
Don't know much about that, but I'm pretty certain that when the being blinded brothers and elders open their eyes after death won't be seeing WL with an extended hand congratulating them on their absoluteness for the ministry. I imagine them seeing Jesus, maybe with a tear in His eye, asking something like "why didn't you do it to the least of these?". But, I could be wrong.
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: the judgment seat of Christ, great white throne, ...

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Originally Posted by least View Post
I would not try to explain the false prophet, for now. Sometimes when reading the bible I suddenly understand something I could not explain before. Sometimes reading bible with others and in others' speaking certain things that I did not understand before, were made clear to me.

Rev. 20: 11- 15, the 'book of life' puzzles me.
And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Then) ... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I don't even know which question to ask. May be someone has an explanation/interpretation to these verses. And then I can ask about it.
Are you concerned about the verse concerning "blotting their names out of the Book of Life"?
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne, ...

Here are my thoughts and findings FWIW.
The judgment seat of Christ is for believers.
The Great White Throne judgment is for unbelievers. I hold the same basic beliefs as ZNPaaneah:
Quote:
the explanation that I currently hold is one that agrees with our basic teachings:

1. Only unbelievers get sent to the Lake of Fire
2. Unbelievers are judged at the Great White Throne
3. Believers are judged at the Judgement seat of Christ
4. Believers are not sent to the Lake of Fire.
I am however going to take it one step further.

I have always wondered IF people who die rejecting Jesus and His Precious Blood, and their spirits and souls go to hell while their bodies turn to dust, what is the purpose of the Great White Throne which occurs after the thousand year reign? Why doesn't God just transfer them from hell, which is in the middle of the earth to the lake of fire after the millennium?

Hell is a temporary holding place, jail if you will while the lake of fire is an eternal prison.

I have concluded that (uh-oh) it might be possible for people in hell to get saved. Not saying that I am certain but there seems to be some indication in the bible it could be possible.

Hell is called Sheol in the OT. Sheol is the Hebrew name for it. In the NT (Luke 16:23) Hell is called Hades. (Greek name).

Other names for hell are: the abyss and the bottomless pit. And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep, into the abyss (Luke 8:31)

Ezekiel 31:14 refers to hell as the deep hole, a place of death.

All of that is to differentiate Hell/Hades/Sheol/the bottomless pit from the Lake of fire.

Another scripture that differentiates the difference between hell and the lake of fire is in Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Watch what Psalm 139:8 says:
If I go up to heaven, you will be there.
If I go down to the place of death, you will be there.

and Psalm 116:3-4
The cords of death encompassed me
And the terrors of Sheol came upon me; I found distress and sorrow.
Then I called upon the name of the Lord: “O Lord, I beseech You, save my life!”


For those who might say 'it's a figure of speech', that David did not really go to hell, I believe David did visit hell. And God saved him: I was brought low, and He saved me.
I have read and heard the testimonies of many people who have visited hell either through a NDE or a vision. Others have visited heaven.

I choose to believe most of the accounts.

After this study, it made sense that is possible, SOME people in hell MIGHT BE crying out to the Lord Jesus in repentance and thus when they go to the Great White Throne for their judgment, their names might actually be found written in the book of Life.

Again, watch what Revelation 20 says
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it.......book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds....if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So why would God pull them out of from the pit of darkness, take them into the Throne of LIGHT, open the book of Life, 'knowing' their names are not there and then throw them into the Lake of Fire? What's the point??? In this verse, God says IF anyone’s name was not found written in the book of Life... Looks to me there could very well be a name or 2 whose name is found in the book of Life.

Otherwise God would have said "AND NO ONE'S NAME was found written in the book of Life.

Just saying, my findings lead me to think there is a possibility people in hell right now MIGHT be able to cry unto the Lord with a heart of repentence for rejecting Jesus and thus have their name written in the book of Life when they stand before the Judge at the Great White Throne.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
Here are my thoughts and findings FWIW.
The judgment seat of Christ is for believers.
The Great White Throne judgment is for unbelievers. I hold the same basic beliefs as ZNPaaneah:


I am however going to take it one step further.

I have always wondered IF people who die rejecting Jesus and His Precious Blood, and their spirits and souls go to hell while their bodies turn to dust, what is the purpose of the Great White Throne which occurs after the thousand year reign? Why doesn't God just transfer them from hell, which is in the middle of the earth to the lake of fire after the millennium?

Hell is a temporary holding place, jail if you will while the lake of fire is an eternal prison.

I have concluded that (uh-oh) it might be possible for people in hell to get saved. Not saying that I am certain but there seems to be some indication in the bible it could be possible.

Hell is called Sheol in the OT. Sheol is the Hebrew name for it. In the NT (Luke 16:23) Hell is called Hades. (Greek name).

Other names for hell are: the abyss and the bottomless pit. And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep, into the abyss (Luke 8:31)

Ezekiel 31:14 refers to hell as the deep hole, a place of death.

All of that is to differentiate Hell/Hades/Sheol/the bottomless pit from the Lake of fire.

Another scripture that differentiates the difference between hell and the lake of fire is in Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Watch what Psalm 139:8 says:
If I go up to heaven, you will be there.
If I go down to the place of death, you will be there.

and Psalm 116:3-4
The cords of death encompassed me
And the terrors of Sheol came upon me; I found distress and sorrow.
Then I called upon the name of the Lord: “O Lord, I beseech You, save my life!”


For those who might say 'it's a figure of speech', that David did not really go to hell, I believe David did visit hell. And God saved him: I was brought low, and He saved me.
I have read and heard the testimonies of many people who have visited hell either through a NDE or a vision. Others have visited heaven.

I choose to believe most of the accounts.

After this study, it made sense that is possible, SOME people in hell MIGHT BE crying out to the Lord Jesus in repentance and thus when they go to the Great White Throne for their judgment, their names might actually be found written in the book of Life.

Again, watch what Revelation 20 says
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it.......book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds....if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So why would God pull them out of from the pit of darkness, take them into the Throne of LIGHT, open the book of Life, 'knowing' their names are not there and then throw them into the Lake of Fire? What's the point??? In this verse, God says IF anyone’s name was not found written in the book of Life... Looks to me there could very well be a name or 2 whose name is found in the book of Life.

Otherwise God would have said "AND NO ONE'S NAME was found written in the book of Life.

Just saying, my findings lead me to think there is a possibility people in hell right now MIGHT be able to cry unto the Lord with a heart of repentence for rejecting Jesus and thus have their name written in the book of Life when they stand before the Judge at the Great White Throne.
That is very interesting -- could someone be put into a thousand year prison and get saved during that time? There are some verses in the book of Revelation that suggest the age of grace ends and the possibility of salvation ends as well. That is the interpretation that WL presented, so it is also probably standard Brethren doctrine.

Another possibility is that both Christians and unbelievers are sent to the same place during the thousand years. Then they are judged. I think it would be much more terrifying for a Christian if you are then brought out with unbelievers to stand before the Great White throne and discover if your name is written in the book of life.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne, ...

I just gave my thoughts and findings on the Great White Throne Judgment.

Now here are my thoughts on the 'Judgment Seat of Christ':

The Judgement seat of Christ is where all believers get rewards, receive their crowns to rule and reign with Christ. I view it like this: On earth, most people go to school. But to move up to the next grade, a level up, a child needs to understand what he/she learned in that grade. If they can't do the very basics taught to them in that grade, they can't move up. Not as a punishment. The child that is 'promoted' and does not understand what he/she learned will be very discouraged and insecure in the next level.

I think it's the same with us. Here on earth, we true believers are in spiritual school. If we are simply satisfied with being saved, knowing we are going to heaven and nothing more, we will get rewarded with eternal Life in Christ. But we might not receive any other rewards. Better than nothing I say!
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne, ...

At the great white throne, there were books and another book, book of life.
Since the dead were judged out of those things written in the books, according to their works; who are the 'whosoever' not found written in the book of life?

The great white throne is after the thousand years kingdom. Can it be that people (of nations) living in the thousand years, can have their names written
(or not written) in the book of life?
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:46 PM   #11
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If the age of grace ends at the beginning of the thousand years, can it be that in the thousand years, the criteria for entering the book of life is not exactly the same as it is now?
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:55 PM   #12
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Exodus 32: 31- 33
And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Here is a book that God can blot people out.
But it's not specifically call 'book of life'.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne, ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by least View Post
At the great white throne, there were books and another book, book of life.

Since the dead were judged out of those things written in the books, according to their works; who are the 'whosoever' not found written in the book of life?

The great white throne is after the thousand years kingdom. Can it be that people (of nations) living in the thousand years, can have their names writte (or not written) in the book of life?
Hmmm ... what about the sheep in Matt 25.34 who were rewarded for their acts of kindness?

Were they judged according to the "eternal gospel" (Rev 14.6) warning the inhabitants of the earth to "fear God and give Him the glory?"

Does it seem like faith is noticeably missing in these scriptures?
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by least View Post
At the great white throne, there were books and another book, book of life.
Since the dead were judged out of those things written in the books, according to their works; who are the 'whosoever' not found written in the book of life?

The great white throne is after the thousand years kingdom. Can it be that people (of nations) living in the thousand years, can have their names written
(or not written) in the book of life?

I believe so.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:55 PM   #15
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Hmmm ... what about the sheep in Matt 25.34 who were rewarded for their acts of kindness?

Were they judged according to the "eternal gospel" (Rev 14.6) warning the inhabitants of the earth to "fear God and give Him the glory?"

Does it seem like faith is noticeably missing in these scriptures?
In the last couple of years, it has been brought to my attention (which makes sense to me btw) that Jesus was talking to the Jews in Matthew 25. Remember Jesus said He had sheep from a different fold meaning the gentiles.

Since I believe there is a rapture of the bride of Christ before the Trib begins, it is clear to me now that Matthew 25 is talking about the 2nd coming of Christ at Armageddon. The Jews did not know there was going to be a gentile bride then.

They still don't!
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Old 11-15-2017, 03:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Exodus 32: 31- 33
And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Here is a book that God can blot people out.
But it's not specifically call 'book of life'.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This verse indicates that Jesus can blot names out of the book of life. Also it would not be much of a reward to the overcomers if He in fact never did blot out names. Therefore it also indicates that He does blot out names.

3 And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:

These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and thou art dead. 2 Be thou watchful, and establish the things that remain, which were ready to die: for I have found no works of thine perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I think this gives us insight into how those in Sardis "defiled their garments". God's judgements are righteous. What action would prompt a righteous judgement that results in blotting out your name from the book of life? Suppose some church leader excommunicated those who were following the Lord according to their conscience. It seems righteous that in return God would blot their names out. Suppose these ones had come, according to Matthew 18, to stand up for saints who had been offended. In other words they confessed the names of these children of the Lord before these leaders who then excommunicated them. It seems a fitting reward would be that Jesus would confess their names before the father and angels. In the gospels Jesus says that if you confess His name in this age He will confess your name in the coming age.

This also corresponds to the promises made to the overcomers in Philadelphia that "they will not go out anymore". This indicates that they are both overcomers and ones who were forced to "go out" from the church previously.
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Old 11-15-2017, 03:53 AM   #17
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Jesus was talking to the Jews in Matthew 25. Remember Jesus said He had sheep from a different fold meaning the gentiles.
Matthew 25 sheep enter to live in the millennium kingdom. (reward) Sheep and goats separated out from the nations. (gentiles)

Ohio: Were they judged according to the "eternal gospel" (Rev 14.6) warning the inhabitants of the earth to "fear God and give Him the glory?"
I think so. Themselves fear God and give Him glory. Fed and clothed and cared for the Lord's brethren (Jews).

Does it seem like faith is noticeably missing in these scriptures?
faith here- believe and obey God according to the eternal gospel. (different criteria)
enter the kingdom (millennium kingdom), not part of the bride.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Here the goats already sent 'into everlasting fire'. The false prophet included?


Pls correct me if I'm wrong. I'm only trying to understand more on the topics concerning judgement.
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Old 11-15-2017, 03:56 AM   #18
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Rev 3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This verse indicates that Jesus can blot names out of the book of life.
Scary. O Lord.

Do you think this 'book of life' and 'book' that Moses and God talked about, same or not?
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Old 11-15-2017, 05:02 AM   #19
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Scary. O Lord.

Do you think this 'book of life' and 'book' that Moses and God talked about, same or not?
I have added some clarifying remarks to post #16
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Old 12-02-2017, 01:01 PM   #20
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judgement must begin at the house of God

I Peter 4: 17
For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I Corinthians 11: 31, 32
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

I Peter 1: 13 – 17]
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

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Old 04-13-2020, 06:17 PM   #21
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Default Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ, Great White Throne

Compilation of various messages on the JSOC:

Judgment Seat of Christ, Part 1 - Rick Howard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIrjJznbaDo

Judgment Seat of Christ, Part 2 - Rick Howard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7R8rsfzrt8

Leonard Ravenhill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCxxA9Zs3bw - short version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-I1x2X3Cro - long version

James W. Knox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obsGmIFXfR8

Clarence Sexton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4GD7lCXmwU

Woodland Hills
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguMhbEkyiw

David Wilkerson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er4_jILO6mQ
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Old 04-20-2020, 06:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
It is generally accepted that the Great White Throne is where unbelievers are judged and sent to the Lake of Fire.

The verse prior to this judgement, v10, is where Satan is bound and cast into the Lake of Fire.

However, in this same verse it says that the False prophet and the beast are already in the Lake of Fire.

One possible explanation, which Witness Lee seems to have taught without explicitly spelling it out, is that . . . .
It seems to me that while Revelation is not a book to be ignored, it is also not a book whose goal is to be figured out. It seems to me that the goal of Revelation is to paint a picture of events that will occur during "end times."

And I put that in quotes because even trying to define the time-span of the recorded events (whether literal or metaphorical) and placing it in some specific time in history, whether past, present, or future (and whether specific events presumed to be future happen before or after certain points within the "end times") does not seem to be the goal.

Rather, the goal of Revelation is to present signs that will ready us and keep us on the path without reference to where we actual are in terms of the literal end of it all. We should always see the end as reasonable to be close while still living as image-bearers of God in this world as if it would go on for centuries to come.

For me, what I find problematic in the kind of Revelation studies that go on these days is that they too often are focused on seeking the near-equivalent of "day and hour" and turn too many away from their current living in the world and instead abandon the present in hope of the future.

And when we look at it that way, how do we read passages, whether in Revelation or other parts of the NT, that indicated that the "present" generation would see the return of Christ? As something other than the return in Revelation that we see as still to come? As a metaphorical period of a generation (say 20 years for grins) multiplied by the "1,000 years is as a day" returns 20,000 years within which to return. Don't accuse me of saying this is true. Just an example of a way to try to "pin it down."

And I don't buy "pin it down." But the uncertainty means we have to continue to live this life as if it will last for somewhere around the allocated 70 years, yet know that there is a reasonable view that it could still be any moment.

And if the church will be "raptured" before it all begins, then why tell us the rest? Assuming that "once saved, always saved" is as simple as we try to make it, there is no reason to concern ourselves with it.

So, why the lengthy description of what will not matter? Why the loops of events, first in terms of seals, then of bowls, then of horses? Maybe so that we will understand whatever seems to be the present situation fits into the narrative in some way. That shows that the state of the world and the movement forward of God will always suggest the end. Yet there is still no clarity that any particular time is near or within the (hypothetical?) 7 years of the end times.

So how are we to live? Soberly. Obedient. As if we really have a King (not just a hero that saves us). Taking the commands of the King as seriously as we are able.

I will not simply state that the judgement seat and the great white throne are irrelevant. No matter how metaphorical or how literal, they speak of reckoning for both the people of God and those who refuse God. Whether everyone living now dies and the end times (as we understand them) don't happen for 3,000 more years, or it comes to be tonight, we should be prepared. Whatever the reality of the outcome is, when we die (or it happens, if earlier) it is what it is. If we understand that properly, then we should live now with the view to seeing that day in its fullness. Live that way today. And tomorrow. And the next. And so on until we no longer live in this realm — whether because we die or the end arrives.
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Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)
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