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Old 09-12-2014, 03:28 AM   #1
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Post ... What HE says!

Isn't that a colloquial expression?... What he says?

You know, a kind of slang today when someone doesn't want to redefine what someone else said in his or her own words he or she says, "what he says". Lol... Well, that's the approach I like to take with the Word of God: What he says. At this point in my Christian life the only thing that matters to me is what he says. We can clarify what he says but I, for my part, draw the line there. If he doesn't say it I am NOT interested in it.

There are some things WL said which the Bible doesn't say and there's a good number of things he did not teach which the Bible does teach. I've had 25 years of what witness Lee says. I don't want to spend too much time on those in this thread, except for the sake of comparison and contrast. Rather, I would like to look at some of the things the Bible does teach and WL may not have.

I think this is the first law of hermeneutics, right? To take the Bible for what it says in its context? Please refine that if necessary. Thank you in advance.

David said " o how I love thy law! " if David were a 17-year-old Pittsburgher today I think he would say "yo! what he says, bro!"

You've heard the expression, "His word is law ". This simply means his word has authority. What he says goes. And a person like that you better take at his word. that's how I believe we should take God's Word. don't separate it into law versus grace. That will make you sick. Just take the whole thing. David also said, " the entrance of your words give light". All his word will do that. But we all know light supplies nutrients. it also kills germs. The important thing is that we be in the light.

Last edited by Dancing; 09-12-2014 at 03:32 AM. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 09-12-2014, 05:13 AM   #2
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

Sorry, UntoHim...I should have posted this under a different forum other than suggestions and feedback. Do you have a suggerstion? Or create a new forum like, "What does the Bible really say?" or "A Fresh Look at the Bible"
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Old 09-15-2014, 11:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here." (from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy)

Yet in Acts 5:1-4
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

In the principle of this passage from Acts, Witness Lee held back some of the facts regarding the events mentioned in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.
If you read the testimonies of John So, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls, a reader may understand much of what Witness Lee and the current blending brothers did not want to come into light and why Witness Lee would say "The matter now stops here."
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:40 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Terry View Post
"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here." (from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy)

Yet in Acts 5:1-4
But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property, and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

In the principle of this passage from Acts, Witness Lee held back some of the facts regarding the events mentioned in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.
If you read the testimonies of John So, Bill Mallon, and John Ingalls, a reader may understand much of what Witness Lee and the current blending brothers did not want to come into light and why Witness Lee would say "The matter now stops here."
Awesome parallel, Terry. I wouldn’t want to be WL.

Jas 3:1 NKJV
"My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment."

What a warning to all of us. We may not teach large audiences like WL did but whenever we teach ALL of us can humble ourselves before the Lord that we may hear what HE SAYS. When we speak what He says and be careful not to neglect what He says at every time we speak, we can rest asssured we won't suffer this judgment.

And we see the same principle can be extended to and illustrated in the safety we have in mutual fellowship. When we all together receive from our heavenly Father and share "in sincerity and truth" with one another we have greater clarity of the Father's word and will. This is the church life!

What a warning. We will never forget these lessons. They are invaluable. I encourage everyone: Don't despise nor despair at the experiences we've gone through. Some people go their whole lives and never learn. THAT'S the greater tragedy.
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:47 AM   #5
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It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back. For me, when the dust settled, that was a source of grief. But the real question I had was, “If WE are not God’s kingdom on earth, then where is it?” I was in a state of humility I had not known since I’d first found “The Recovery”.

Thank God for the internet. Virtually, ANY questions we possess can be investigated very effectively. Not only so, but I knew a brother who was among us that was speaking words of truth and life. He’d “gone back to the Bible” and sought out others’ counsel (ie., outside the LCs). I asked him for some book recommendations and got to work. I took off on my own at that point. In the last 8 years I’ve probably read 10 times the number of books I’d read my whole life (excluding WL and WN).

One of the books I read around 2007 was Messianic Church Arising by Robert D. Heidler. Through it the Lord blessed my heart and began to fill in many holes that existed in my understanding of the Bible for 30 years. In this post I just want to address the simple question: "What about the Jews?" And I will present some points from the Bible that show that God is not done with the Jews, by any stretch. Along the way I’ll have to bring up some of the errors in WL’s teaching that lend themselves to our dismissing of the Jews.

The first point I must bring up is simple: God’s faithfulness. He made a covenant with Abraham, extending it to Isaac, jacob, and all his descendants:

"Now the LORD had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."" - Gen 12:1-3 NKJV

I think these verses are so familiar to many of us! At least, I heard it spoken not infrequently, but it was in the long run used to reference US, not Israel. This covenant God made with Abraham is so significant because here God chooses a particular man through whom He promises to bless the whole world and He places the sole responsibility of fulfilling it on Himself. And now I have to ask: Would God EVER break this promise? Does the Bible support a failure on His part to fulfill this? Quite the contrary. The prophets, whose writings comprise a huge percentage of the scriptures, speak time and time again of His love for His people, their disobedience and His subsequent pain, and above all, His affirmation to make good His promises to them in spite of their rebellion.

Now I want to go to Romans. It’s interesting to note how little WL referred to chapters 9-11 of that book. As I recall, he referred to those chapters as “parenthetical”. In other words, they were a side point, not the main point of this book known as “The gospel according to Paul”. I’m going to refute that claim. I will say that they are central to the book and central to the gospel. And here’s why: Though Israel as a nation failed to receive their Messiah/King, God has promised there is an elect, a remnant to whom God (through the gentile church) will show mercy; and through the nation's receiving of their Messiah toward the end of this age will come the greatest revival of all time.

"I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ... I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? ... And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." - Rom 11:1-5, 11-15, 23-32 NKJV

This is the oneness that Jesus spoke of in John 17. It is the one new man Paul spoke of in Ephesians 2. It’s the oneness of Jew and Gentile: the most powerful testimony of God to the world. It's the kingdom plan.
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Old 09-16-2014, 09:27 AM   #6
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

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Originally Posted by Dancing View Post
It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back. For me, when the dust settled, that was a source of grief. But the real question I had was, “If WE are not God’s kingdom on earth, then where is it?” I was in a state of humility I had not known since I’d first found “The Recovery”.

Thank God for the internet. Virtually, ANY questions we possess can be investigated very effectively. Not only so, but I knew a brother who was among us that was speaking words of truth and life. He’d “gone back to the Bible” and sought out others’ counsel (ie., outside the LCs). I asked him for some book recommendations and got to work. I took off on my own at that point. In the last 8 years I’ve probably read 10 times the number of books I’d read my whole life (excluding WL and WN).

One of the books I read around 2007 was Messianic Church Arising by Robert D. Heidler. Through it the Lord blessed my heart and began to fill in many holes that existed in my understanding of the Bible for 30 years. In this post I just want to address the simple question: "What about the Jews?" And I will present some points from the Bible that show that God is not done with the Jews, by any stretch. Along the way I’ll have to bring up some of the errors in WL’s teaching that lend themselves to our dismissing of the Jews.

This is the ONENESS that Jesus spoke of in John 17. It is the one new man Paul spoke of in Ephesians 2. It’s the oneness of Jew and Gentile: the most powerful testimony of God to the world. It's the kingdom plan.
YES DANCING! THE ONE NEW MAN IS THE JEW AND GENTILE IN CHRIST JESUS!
BARUCH HA SHEM HA MESHIAH YAHUSHUAH ! BARUCH HA SHEM ADONAI.

BLESSED IS THE NAME OF MESSIAH JESUS! BLESSED IS THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Carol
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Old 09-16-2014, 09:34 AM   #7
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

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Originally Posted by Dancing View Post
It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back. For me, when the dust settled, that was a source of grief. But the real question I had was, “If WE are not God’s kingdom on earth, then where is it?” I was in a state of humility I had not known since I’d first found “The Recovery”.
There will be a secret rapture for believers in the clouds. Then the Lord will publicly return to the Mount of Olives to fight for Israel.

Attendance at LC meetings counts for nothing.
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Old 09-16-2014, 09:43 AM   #8
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YES DANCING! THE ONE NEW MAN IS THE JEW AND GENTILE IN CHRIST JESUS!
BARUCH HA SHEM HA MESHIAH YAHUSHUAH ! BARUCH HA SHEM ADONAI.

BLESSED IS THE NAME OF MESSIAH JESUS! BLESSED IS THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Carol
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Old 09-16-2014, 11:43 AM   #9
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It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back. For me, when the dust settled, that was a source of grief. But the real question I had was, “If WE are not God’s kingdom on earth, then where is it?”
A lot in these three sentences. For me, the answers (and more questions) follow on this line:

We are the people who are God's kingdom on earth. Not specifically any subgroup, but rather the whole of the people of God. Even those that we don't think much of. That we think are not as spiritual as we are. Who are too works oriented. Or too emotional. Or too cerebral. Or even too worldly (according the rulebook of our favorite sect, whoever that may be).

For me, while I no longer have regular experiences of near euphoria like we managed to drum up in the LRC, I am more clear and certain that Christ is building his church and it doesn't look like any particular one of our groups. Or like Western Christianity in general. Or like Asian or African Christianity in general. It looks like the people who are where they are becoming salt and light in the environments in which they find themselves.

And they are beginning to become more one. Not necessarily in every minor doctrine, but in the things of unity — Christ, faith, baptism, the Spirit, the Father, etc. I am one with any Christian in this way.

But as for bringing the Lord back, I'm not sure that this is our task. Our task is to bear God's image on the earth. Whenever and however he has decided to return is not something I find to be influenced by my behavior. Or that of large groups of Christians. Paul prayed concerning being taken up from his suffering here on earth. I don't recall him praying, or teaching, that we have a place in the determination of His return. We were told to watch for signs. Yet in almost every generation there are those who point to signs. And we do so and consider that this day may not end. And it might not. And yet another 2,000 years from now some may still be saying the same thing. And it does not make our faith and hope any less secure or meaningful.

Maybe the best solution is to always live as if it is the last that will ever be, and also as if we will be here until we are 95 and losing our minds to dementia, and many generations to come will do the same afterward.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:02 PM   #10
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There will be a secret rapture for believers in the clouds. Then the Lord will publicly return to the Mount of Olives to fight for Israel.

Attendance at LC meetings counts for nothing.

yeppers !! Count me worthy LORD to escape ALL the things that are about to come to pass...that I may be among those caught up by the LORD Yahshuah Himself! HOPEFULLY THIS MONTH...

In many rapture centric watch groups, the Feast of Trumpets which is Rosh Ha Shanna is the Feast in which they believe Jesus will return FOR His Bride. The reasons:
It is the next Feast of the Lord to be fullfilled of the 7 Feasts of the LORD. 2ndly, it correlates with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17...The Lord descending with a Shout, with the Voice of the Archangel and the TRUMPET of God.

3rdly... to those who say "NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR'..... here is the response to that comeback:
The disciples of Jesus were all Jews. They were very much aware of the 7 Feasts of the Lord. (Jesus Himself died on Feast of Passover as the real Passover Lamb). But of the 7 Feasts, the only feast the Jews do not know when it begins is: *drumroll*
FEAST OF TRUMPETS! ROSH HA SHANNA.

why?
Because it begins on the New Moon. A new moon is 'blackened out' until a sliver of it appears. So when 2 witnesses in Israel see the sliver, the Feast of Trumpets begins. So this year, Feast of Trumpets falls on around the 24th of this month. It begins when the sliver of the new moon is seen in Israel. However, if it is overcast, rainy and is not until the weather clears up..2-3 days later, Feast of Trumpets does not begin officially.

Soo, some endtime scholars believe the Lord's disciples knew Jesus was referring to the Feast of Trumpets when HE ANSWERED THEM with the phrase 'No man knows the day of the hour but my Father only.'

Now...I often hear people say "Even JESUS does not know the day or the Hour. Only the Father." To that I say "Really? Jesus IS IN the FATHER and IS GOD. So HE certainly knows!'

So why did He say 'ONLY the FATHER'? To that I say, Jesus had not yet been crucified, resurrected, and ascended. From the point of His Humanity, only THE FATHER knew.
----------
When I first started studying the end times as as serious matter in 2005, I still had a lot of LC gook in me. So I went to the RcV to see what Lee had to say about it. His explanation was sooooooo confusing. I asked a couple of LC people what the difference between the Rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ was as I DID NOT KNOW. They did not know either after being LC lifers for 30 plus years.

So for those who don't know and are curious. The Lord comes FOR His Bride at the Rapture and 7 or so years later, He returns WITH HIS ARMY at which point EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM then.

There are some people who believe we are already at the beginning of the first half of the Tribulation.

AS long as we are still here, I can't tell you if the Trib has started or not. If it has not, sure looks like it will begin shortly. Beam us up LORD JESUS. BEAM us up !

Carol
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:26 PM   #11
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It must have been a shock to all of us when we first realized that we were not THE people to bring the Lord back.
What a peculiar idea. What, is working out the second coming like a complex combination lock ; if we can only get the tumblers just right and on the right numbers Jesus has to come back?

Why don't we just go to Jerusalem and blow up the Temple Mount, to get things rolling?

Yet the promise of doing just that has been used to fleece the sheep more times than can be counted.

And I've read that the selling of the promise of the second coming has been a big hit in mainland China, merchandising on a big scale.

I guess when your miserable and hate life and this awful ugly world the second coming is an easy sell.

Not only you fell for it Dancing, so did I.
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Old 09-16-2014, 12:32 PM   #12
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Romans 11:25
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.

Every time we bring someone to Christ, it moves us closer to this magical number of elect gentiles.

Also this verse just made me realize that many Jews are coming to know Jesus as Messiah via the fast growing Messianic movement could be a sign we are approaching the end of the time of the Gentiles Jesus alluded to (Luke 21:24).
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:51 PM   #13
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A lot in these three sentences. For me, the answers (and more questions) follow on this line:

We are the people who are God's kingdom on earth. Not specifically any subgroup, but rather the whole of the people of God. Even those that we don't think much of. That we think are not as spiritual as we are. Who are too works oriented. Or too emotional. Or too cerebral. Or even too worldly (according the rulebook of our favorite sect, whoever that may be).

For me, while I no longer have regular experiences of near euphoria like we managed to drum up in the LRC, I am more clear and certain that Christ is building his church and it doesn't look like any particular one of our groups. Or like Western Christianity in general. Or like Asian or African Christianity in general. It looks like the people who are where they are becoming salt and light in the environments in which they find themselves.

And they are beginning to become more one. Not necessarily in every minor doctrine, but in the things of unity — Christ, faith, baptism, the Spirit, the Father, etc. I am one with any Christian in this way.

But as for bringing the Lord back, I'm not sure that this is our task. Our task is to bear God's image on the earth. Whenever and however he has decided to return is not something I find to be influenced by my behavior. Or that of large groups of Christians. Paul prayed concerning being taken up from his suffering here on earth. I don't recall him praying, or teaching, that we have a place in the determination of His return. We were told to watch for signs. Yet in almost every generation there are those who point to signs. And we do so and consider that this day may not end. And it might not. And yet another 2,000 years from now some may still be saying the same thing. And it does not make our faith and hope any less secure or meaningful.

Maybe the best solution is to always live as if it is the last that will ever be, and also as if we will be here until we are 95 and losing our minds to dementia, and many generations to come will do the same afterward.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.
I find this very genuine, honest, perceptive, and sweet. Thanks, OBW. I especially like your last paragraph. This is a sign of consecration. If we are whole-hearted in our devotion, surely we will be one of those who are "making the bride ready".
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:54 PM   #14
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For me, while I no longer have regular experiences of near euphoria like we managed to drum up in the LRC, I am more clear and certain that Christ is building his church and it doesn't look like any particular one of our groups. Or like Western Christianity in general. Or like Asian or African Christianity in general. It looks like the people who are where they are becoming salt and light in the environments in which they find themselves.

And they are beginning to become more one. Not necessarily in every minor doctrine, but in the things of unity — Christ, faith, baptism, the Spirit, the Father, etc. I am one with any Christian in this way.
This is also worthy of repetition. I have a feeling the topic might become its own thread. This matter of distinctions versus uniformity was another obstacle I've found myself busting through.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:22 PM   #15
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Romans 11:25
I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ.

Every time we bring someone to Christ, it moves us closer to this magical number of elect gentiles.

Also this verse just made me realize that many Jews are coming to know Jesus as Messiah via the fast growing Messianic movement could be a sign we are approaching the end of the time of the Gentiles Jesus alluded to (Luke 21:24).
YES! I agree, bearbear! I never saw that verse until recently. I didn't realize there REALLY ARE MULTITUDES OF JEWS COMING TO YESHUA!

Years ago, we were at some rest stop on the way home from a church conference. Lo and behold, there were Jews for Jesus sitting beside us! (They were wearing t-shirts with their message) I so much wanted to go over to them and say something to strike up a conversation but someone in our group made a derogatory comment like, "Oh, they're legalistic....Look at their sour faces!" I feel awful to know now that I was the one who was full of my superiority.

Prior to coming to the LC I'd read the Bible and sensed God's longing to be received by His people, not just me and the gentiles...but I gave up on the idea. This has been a crucial lesson to me also. DON'T GIVE UP ON WHAT THE WORD SAYS. BELIEVE IT. LET IT SINK DEEP INTO YOUR HEART. PRAY IT AND DECLARE IT. DO THIS UNTIL IT IS MANIFEST. This is now the way I try to practice my Christian life. God HAS revealed His deepest longing. And it includes this central theme: His desire to have His people to return to Him.
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Old 09-16-2014, 09:04 PM   #16
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I am just a newbie on this site but at first glance I am dumbfounded. My experience was that I was introduced to WN in 1965, "The Normal Christian Life" which completely impacted my life. In 1969, in Santa Cruz, when I met Karl Hammond, the editor of "The Normal Christian Church Life" which is when I first heard of WL I was enamored with it all. When WL in 1971 personally asked me to move to Detroit I immediately moved.

Why were we so impressed? Because of the influence of WN which was really the influence of Angus Kinnear who published his books in England. We had read WN, we were impressed and then we find someone who was a "co-worker" of Nee. Witness Lee..... Wow. We are caught in the net and our hearts and souls are open to all kinds of mischief. We can only reflect on what happened. So far, all the scripture quotes, greek interpretations, elaborations etc are simply working through the process of "what just happened" in our local church experience. Its great and helpful but let's not take all of this too seriously. As I have said previously, until one completely extracts themselves from this process it will go on and on with no end. It is not easy to walk away from all of this and go on with our lives.

Maybe we have spent so many years in the LC that we just can't stop talking about it or analyzing it or its interpretations of scriptures. I am not discounting Nigel or others who are trying to clarify some critical issues of scripture etc for former members of the LC. My point is simply that there seems to be some freight trains which are kind of running off track. I mean, I have a cousin who is a Christian but is heavy into the Israeli thing. I just don't see how that is relevant on this site but I am a newbie and maybe I just don't get it.
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Old 09-17-2014, 05:17 AM   #17
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I am just a newbie on this site but at first glance I am dumbfounded. My experience was that I was introduced to WN in 1965, "The Normal Christian Life" which completely impacted my life. In 1969, in Santa Cruz, when I met Karl Hammond, the editor of "The Normal Christian Church Life" which is when I first heard of WL I was enamored with it all. When WL in 1971 personally asked me to move to Detroit I immediately moved.

Why were we so impressed? Because of the influence of WN which was really the influence of Angus Kinnear who published his books in England. We had read WN, we were impressed and then we find someone who was a "co-worker" of Nee. Witness Lee..... Wow. We are caught in the net and our hearts and souls are open to all kinds of mischief. We can only reflect on what happened. So far, all the scripture quotes, greek interpretations, elaborations etc are simply working through the process of "what just happened" in our local church experience. Its great and helpful but let's not take all of this too seriously. As I have said previously, until one completely extracts themselves from this process it will go on and on with no end. It is not easy to walk away from all of this and go on with our lives.

Maybe we have spent so many years in the LC that we just can't stop talking about it or analyzing it or its interpretations of scriptures. I am not discounting Nigel or others who are trying to clarify some critical issues of scripture etc for former members of the LC. My point is simply that there seems to be some freight trains which are kind of running off track. I mean, I have a cousin who is a Christian but is heavy into the Israeli thing. I just don't see how that is relevant on this site but I am a newbie and maybe I just don't get it.
Hi, Dave.

Thank you so much for your open honest question. I hope the following helps.

I had a similar experience through WN at the beginning. But before that I'd read the Bible. Reading the entire Bible a couple of times made me grieve. It made me ask, "Where are His Jewish believers?" It's written by Jews to Jews (and the world, ultimately). It's all about the Jews. It tells God's story from the beginning of His calling of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the nation of Israel. His giving of the law to them was because they were to be His representative people to the whole world.

But this story is just as much about Who God is. What kind of God He is. Though Israel failed as a nation and suffered all the curses He'd promised, His covenant promise would NEVER FAIL. His covenant with Abraham was one-sided. There was no contingency on Abraham. God will keep His word. We see His heart in all the words of the prophets who, over and over again, delivered His messages of grief, sorrow, pain, love, faithfulness, and promise of restoration. Even though, as a nation, they failed to receive their Lord Yeshua, the early church was the remnant of Jewish believers. That remnant has largely "disappeared" into the church over the centuries due to the persecution of the Jews in the early centuries and the proclamations, decisions, rulings, etc. of Constantine and others against them who made celebration of the Passover and the Sabbath illegal, among other things. THIS IS NOT LOVE AND THIS IS NOT GOD'S WAY.

God desires the oneness that is produced through love toward God and one another. We in the LCs have paid a high price to figure this out. We've seen that there are no cookie cutter Christians that please Him. He has made us all to fulfill the purposes He's given us. Malachi 4:5,6 says:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

The word of God came to us through the Jew first. Jesus spoke to the Jew first. Our gospel must go to the Jew first. The Jew has been delegated to bring about world redemption. Their believing will be "like life from the dead" for the whole world.

WL gave us the church life "Chinese style" with a mix of Western Civilization. He claimed it was "only Christ". We know better. He claimed there should be no culture. We now know that all are loved and appreciated by Him. All cultures, peoples, can worship and serve Him according to the way they were created. His times and seasons have placed us all where we are.

Paul says in Ephesians that we have now been made part of "the commonwealth of Israel". They had the advantage (Romans 3:1,2) of having the very words of God entrusted to them. Being joined to them their inheritance is now ours too. We have been grafted into their olive tree. We, the wild olive branches, are secure in His love and care.

But they are the natural branches. They must be grafted back in for Him to return. It's happening now. Over the last several decades there have been accelerating conversions of Jews and many, many, are returning to the land. This also must be for the end to come. There are even prophesies in the OT books of the prophets that speak of the gentiles bringing them back (this happened and is still happening), gentiles planting trees in the land (this happened and is happening) and of teaching them various agricultural techniques in the land(ditto).

Hatred of the Jew/Rejection of the Jew is the greatest tactic of the enemy to cause us to miss, God forbid, even fight against His purposes. He has chosen them and He will complete the work He began in them with the help of those of us whose hearts are turned back to the fathers. But there's another deadly poison that has been spreading as rapidly and perniciously as any antisemitism. That is "Replacement theology". WL didn't come right out and say it but neither did he see or embrace the place of the Jews. After 25 years of his ministry I was pretty clear that WE replaced Israel due to their failure. (Calvin taught this; Dispensationalism implies this somewhat but not as drastically) Physical Jerusalem wasn't even important anymore. WE are the New Jerusalem. This just leaves out way too much of the Bible. WL just allegorized the literal interpretation right out of the Bible.

No, Dave, these freight trains are NOT running off track. We're getting back on track. I, for one, have come back to "my Jewish roots".
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:55 AM   #18
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I, for one, have come back to "my Jewish roots".
So you were born a Jew. Good for you. Go back to your roots. But most out here if any weren't born a Jew, and don't have Jewish roots. So we can't join you. I'm sorry to say but to us you're lookin a little loony. Maybe we're just not understanding you. So please go on and explain more.
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:51 AM   #19
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So you were born a Jew. Good for you. Go back to your roots. But most out here if any weren't born a Jew, and don't have Jewish roots. So we can't join you. I'm sorry to say but to us you're lookin a little loony. Maybe we're just not understanding you. So please go on and explain more.
No, no. We missed a post somewhere. I am NOT Jewish as far as I know. (I've not done a DNA test)

Thanks to bearbear who picked up my oversight...(see one of his last posts) and explained my meaning.

Loony to you may be right on with my Abba God who says I've been grafted into the Israel olive tree:

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" - Rom 11:24 KJV

So, we've been grafted into Israel. We are now partaking of their root system:

"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;" - Rom 11:17 KJV

And, in Ephesians Paul says:

"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." - Eph 2:11-13 KJV

So, you and I are "brought nigh" now, awareness. As believers in Yeshua HaMashiach we are now part of Israel's commonwealth. And we are partaking of the "fatness", the riches of their roots.

Why not munch on that for a while... And check out bearbear's recent post for more info...
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:11 AM   #20
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

The B-I-B-L-E
Who remembers the children’s song The B-I-B-L-E?

The B-I-B-L-E! Yes! THAT’S the BOOK for me!
I stand ALONE on the WORD OF GOD! The B-I-B-L-E!

Now, if you learned that song BEFORE you met Lee you might yet be okay today, even better, now that you’re free of the “The word according to Lee”.

Or, if someone drummed the TRUTH of the inerrancy of scripture [OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT] into you PRE-Lee you might still have been left standing when your “church life” disintegrated.

However, if you just came under the influence of Lee without having already gained this firm footing, well, it’s no wonder your spiritual strength feels like that of a jellyfish, while at the same time you’re unable to talk to a Christian without feeling superior to them before they’ve even opened their mouth, and you still can’t visit a local congregation and “hear the Word of God” because you probably REALLY only believe the “word of Lee”. And that is a very sad place to be :-/

My recommendation? Listen to these very smart young people and sing along!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnUWGjMu9XQ

"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." - Mat 18:2-4 KJV

"Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts." - Jer 15:16 KJV
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:35 AM   #21
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Why were we so impressed? Because of the influence of WN which was really the influence of Angus Kinnear who published his books in England. We had read WN, we were impressed and then we find someone who was a "co-worker" of Nee. Witness Lee..... Wow. We are caught in the net and our hearts and souls are open to all kinds of mischief.
That sums up how my parents brought my siblings and I into the local church movement.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:48 AM   #22
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Another saying paraphrased is "don't make an issue of matters, things, or persons." I don't know if WL said it, but commonly I have heard it attributed to a NW elder/co-worker.

Yet Leviticus 5:1-2

Now if a person sins after he hears a public adjuration to testify when he is a witness, whether he has seen or otherwise known, if he does not tell it, then he will bear his guilt

and

James 4:17

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Instead of taking these Biblical principles, the preferred practice is to cover things over.
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:32 PM   #23
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Hi, Dave.

No, Dave, these freight trains are NOT running off track. We're getting back on track. I, for one, have come back to "my Jewish roots".
Dancing, I think Awareness is accurate when he interprets your comments as you claiming Jewish heritage although you explain that your exuberance for Israel is related to scripture and all of us being grafted onto the olive branch.

To me it's just another variation of each person's take on what the scriptures mean. Each quotes scriptures to buoy their interpretation of scriptures to support their position. Of course, WL may be perceived as going off the deep end with his metaphorical interpretation of scriptures which was appealing at the time.

I don't disagree that we should support Israel but I just think you have taken it further than intended. Again, you are just one freight train among many on this forum.
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:48 PM   #24
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..Again, you are just one freight train among many on this forum.
Actually, Dave, we all like to think of ourselves as "The little engine that could"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EhpqcXoxGI
....Just sayin.......
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:39 PM   #25
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Another saying paraphrased is "don't make an issue of matters, things, or persons." I don't know if WL said it, but commonly I have heard it attributed to a NW elder/co-worker.

Yet Leviticus 5:1-2

Now if a person sins after he hears a public adjuration to testify when he is a witness, whether he has seen or otherwise known, if he does not tell it, then he will bear his guilt

and

James 4:17

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Instead of taking these Biblical principles, the preferred practice is to cover things over.
Thank you so much for those verses, Terry.
Simple, clear, and SOBERING. This is what I mean about LOVING GOD'S LAW. If we would truly LOVE ALL HIS INSTRUCTION we would TRULY SHOW HIM HONOR. When we treat His word lightly we show Him contempt. This is why we're exhorted to fear Him. It comes from taking Him at His word. When we do we are filled with reverential awe. Then we're motivated to please Him through obedience. We may fail a million times but a million times more He reminds us of the Son of His love. We never diminish His requirement, we just keep repenting.
This is so serious because if we fail in this matter there is a fatal outcome: a hardened heart. And no serious Christian can afford to allow that to happen.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:57 AM   #26
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Actually, Dave, we all like to think of ourselves as "The little engine that could"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EhpqcXoxGI
....Just sayin.......
I guess my point is that all of us who left the LC, at some point, did so because we had doubt in aspects of the LC whether it was our concerns about the teachings of WL, the decisions of WL or the management of our LC or how the LCs were functioning or their practices etc. However, if we reflect back many of us were true believers and we did everything we could to further the LC movement whether it was migration, pray-reading, meeting mornings and evenings almost every day etc. Part of it was just our youth and the time we lived (i.e. 60s and 70s). Now, years later, to be so confident in what we believe, again, that we have again found the "truth" and become again, true believers, is somewhat baffling to me. Again, we quote scripture to buttress our position. What draws us to this -- is it more a personality trait we possess rather the truth we believe we have found? I believe it is important to have an open heart but go forth with trepidation. The only "truth" that I hold onto is the fact that we each possess a divine spark (Col. 1:27). Once we recognize that spark in each other we then know that each of us has value and we can appreciate each person no matter their position or who they might be. Everything flows from that --- but again that is just my outlook.

From another perspective of mine, I brought a considerable number of people into the local church and I am not about to get on a bandwagon of truth telling to bring anyone else into anything other than to appreciate themselves and one another as well as various points of view which is what I think this forum is all about.
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:43 AM   #27
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No, no. We missed a post somewhere. I am NOT Jewish as far as I know.
So as far as you know you have no Jewish roots. Glad we cleared that up. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Dancer
Loony to you may be right on with my Abba God who says I've been grafted into the Israel olive tree:
If God is okay that you are loony then so am I.

And if we're grafted in then we bear different fruit. Better more loving fruit then, better than The Law fruit. Why go back to worse?

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Originally Posted by Dancer
So, you and I are "brought nigh" now, awareness. As believers in Yeshua HaMashiach we are now part of Israel's commonwealth. And we are partaking of the "fatness", the riches of their roots.
But our fruit is Christ. Much better than The Law. Why would we seek to go backwards. Why insult the law of Christ?

Methinks you are just filling a vacuum left by leaving the local church.

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Originally Posted by Dancer
Why not munch on that for a while... And check out bearbear's recent post for more info...
I saw bearbear's posts. All I have to say is:

Luke 21:8 And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them.
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Old 09-19-2014, 08:52 AM   #28
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Actually, Dave, we all like to think of ourselves as "The little engine that could"
NOT! I see how high that hill is and realize it's just a waste of effort and energy. First level it with dynamite, then this engine will try. I'll even try with no rails. I prefer to be off the rails anyways. Chug chug. I feel like the little engine that couldn't.
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Old 09-19-2014, 10:16 AM   #29
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I prefer to be off the rails anyways.
Man oh man, ain't that the truth!
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:00 AM   #30
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I think that the references to Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree were not about becoming part of the whole of Israel/Judaism(with Christ thrown on top) but about having access to the same God as full participants and not as outsider/wannabees. It is about joining the people of God.

The original imagery of the olive tree was simply Israel. But I believe that in this particular use, it is more about the connection to God than about being "Hebrew" or "Jewish." That reference was not intended to join Gentiles into Judaism or with an ethnic group. It was to connect all the people of God.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:14 AM   #31
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However, if we reflect back many of us were true believers and we did everything we could to further the LC movement
We pretty much HAD to be true believers to enter into and survive within the LC movement. Remember that saying we had: "wrecked for the church"? Yeah, we were wrecked all right. The problem is we got wrecked for a bunch of things we should not have gotten wrecked for - our love for our family members, our love and appreciation for our life-long friends, our love and appreciation for other members of the Body of Christ, our careers...etc, etc.

Quote:
Now, years later, to be so confident in what we believe, again, that we have again found the "truth" and become again, true believers, is somewhat baffling to me.
You sound like someone who has never found a solid Christian church or group of Christians to fellowship with. I don't say this as something to offend you or put you down. It is a very sad thing for me to see how so many former Local Church members have never found such fellowship, and even more tragic is the fact that they are not even looking anymore. They seem to hold the attitude of "fool me once..." The thing is though - and this should be painfully obvious to all us oldies but goodies out there - it was NOT GOD that fooled us, and it was NOT HIS WORD OR THE GOSPEL that fooled us. We were drawn away from the true God and the truth that is reveled in His Word. To some extent we wanted our ears itched and Witness Lee was more than willing and able to do the itching.

As I ramble on, I just wanted make the point that God has not left Himself without a true and accurate testimony. Since the beginning there have been false prophets, false teachers, false apostles and innumerable frauds and shysters...and there will be until the end. But there is still a Savior who is worthy of, and even demands our true belief...our true belief in His Person and His Work and His Word. When we stand before Him on that Day, He will not want to hear all our sad stories of how we were deceived, and if we insist upon this as an excuse as to why we have come to Him empty-handed, I'm afraid we may be rebuked with "Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?"(Luke 12:20)

Quote:
From another perspective of mine, I brought a considerable number of people into the local church and I am not about to get on a bandwagon of truth telling to bring anyone else into anything other than to appreciate themselves and one another as well as various points of view which is what I think this forum is all about.
Yes there are varying points of view around this place, and that's quite all right with me! Thanks for registering and participating.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:35 AM   #32
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I think that the references to Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree were not about becoming part of the whole of Israel/Judaism(with Christ thrown on top) but about having access to the same God as full participants and not as outsider/wannabees. It is about joining the people of God.

The original imagery of the olive tree was simply Israel. But I believe that in this particular use, it is more about the connection to God than about being "Hebrew" or "Jewish." That reference was not intended to join Gentiles into Judaism or with an ethnic group. It was to connect all the people of God.
And the Christian Gentiles did not have to get circumcised nor eat kosher. In other words, they did not have to become Jewish. Those were not requirements to be connected to God, the vine we are graphed into. We're graphed into God not the Jews.
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:06 PM   #33
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I guess my point is that all of us who left the LC, at some point, did so because we had doubt in aspects of the LC whether it was our concerns about the teachings of WL, the decisions of WL or the management of our LC or how the LCs were functioning or their practices etc. However, if we reflect back many of us were true believers and we did everything we could to further the LC movement whether it was migration, pray-reading, meeting mornings and evenings almost every day etc. Part of it was just our youth and the time we lived (i.e. 60s and 70s). Now, years later, to be so confident in what we believe, again, that we have again found the "truth" and become again, true believers, is somewhat baffling to me. Again, we quote scripture to buttress our position. What draws us to this -- is it more a personality trait we possess rather the truth we believe we have found? I believe it is important to have an open heart but go forth with trepidation. The only "truth" that I hold onto is the fact that we each possess a divine spark (Col. 1:27). Once we recognize that spark in each other we then know that each of us has value and we can appreciate each person no matter their position or who they might be. Everything flows from that --- but again that is just my outlook.

From another perspective of mine, I brought a considerable number of people into the local church and I am not about to get on a bandwagon of truth telling to bring anyone else into anything other than to appreciate themselves and one another as well as various points of view which is what I think this forum is all about.
I have to admit, Dave, I don't get you. I wonder...Did you read the Bible and love it and the God of the Bible BEFORE the LCs? Or was your first intro to the Bible and fellowship with God c/o WL?

I have to ask because you seem sour on the truth. Sorry, bro. No offense intended. It's just that the joy of the Lord is wonderful. We can ALWAYS jump on that bandwagon. Actually, (and this is for you, too, awareness) WE ARE COMMANDED TO REJOICE. Now, how's that for "law". Or, if you prefer you can call it instruction, admonition, teaching, really good advice. Anyhow, it's what pleases God and what He's called us to. Apart from that joy I'd question how well you know God....?

I know I'll get slammed for this. People will make me out to be self-righteous or something of that sort. It's just nonsense. We're not following objective teachings. But we get to know a person by His teachings. This is how I mean to love His law. First love it to get to know Him(and abide in Him), Then love it to know how to follow Him (and abide in Him), what pleases Him, what He's doing. The Word tells us these things. Most importantly it's the way we learn how to abide in Him

I am a simple person. I can't keep up with you brainiacs. You're probably smarter than me. But God calls the children. This is what he asked of Nicodemus. We need to become completely new. Do you want to become new? Just take me simply. Take HIM simply at His word. Then, YOU'LL want to proclaim it, too!

So many have been wounded in the LCs and are going in intellectual circles. It's a dead end. The only way out is to receive Him in His word as a child and rejoice
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:17 PM   #34
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I think that the references to Gentiles being grafted into the olive tree were not about becoming part of the whole of Israel/Judaism(with Christ thrown on top) but about having access to the same God as full participants and not as outsider/wannabees. It is about joining the people of God.

The original imagery of the olive tree was simply Israel. But I believe that in this particular use, it is more about the connection to God than about being "Hebrew" or "Jewish." That reference was not intended to join Gentiles into Judaism or with an ethnic group. It was to connect all the people of God.
OBW, you spoke so well about caring for people. But when I mention the Jews you bring up a creed, a religion. Judaism is a religion. It is not a people. CAN WE, DO WE, LOVE THE JEWS AS GOD ASKS US TO?

Can we respect their position. They are like the first born son in the story of the prodigal. They're a bit jealous that we've been received back by the Father so freely and graciously. If we love them we will show them the love the Father said would provoke them to jealousy. This is what will wake them up to our gospel. and their being woken up will bring about salvation for them and the whole world! THIS IS GOD'S PLAN. IT'S IN WORD. (check my previous posts) Romans 9-11.

It's so easy to misunderstand and poop on them because they're "under the law". GOD GAVE THEM THE LAW AND HE SAYS IN ROMANS 3 IT'S GOOD AND HOLY. We have to become aware and love them for who they are. They are God's firstborn. LOVE.
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:20 PM   #35
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We pretty much HAD to be true believers to enter into and survive within the LC movement. Remember that saying we had: "wrecked for the church"? Yeah, we were wrecked all right. The problem is we got wrecked for a bunch of things we should not have gotten wrecked for - our love for our family members, our love and appreciation for our life-long friends, our love and appreciation for other members of the Body of Christ, our careers...etc, etc.
This is perfect...sorry, I was in a rush and don't have anymore time so I didn't read all posts. Thank you for this, UntoHim. You've said better than my rant :/ But my heart breaks too to see so many of my brothers struggling so
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Old 09-19-2014, 04:56 PM   #36
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And the Christian Gentiles did not have to get circumcised nor eat kosher. In other words, they did not have to become Jewish.
Excellent point. They didn't have to become Jewish to be saved. Okay. But now, turn it around. The Jews today who believe in their Messiah Yeshuah do not have to become Gentile. They don't have to eat what we eat. They can still say their prayers and sing their songs their way. In other words, their culture does not have to be abandoned. This is what the Toward Jerusalem Council II is about: http://tjcii.org/about/

Think about it. If the Lord never meant to force Gentiles to become Jewish, neither did He mean for the Gentiles to force the Jews to become Gentiles. Otherwise, he wouldn't have to pray them to all be one (John 17). They would have all been in "The Recovery " together... copycats, white shirt and tie wearing, briefcase toting, short-haired (I've got nothing against these characteristics...Lol), same speaking, sterilized clones.

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Those were not requirements to be connected to God, the vine we are graphed into. We're graphed into God not the Jews.
This is just counter-jealousy. They were not requirements to be connected to Israel, whose God is the Lord. Don't try to bypass Israel. It's not fair and God can't honor that. We will all be tested on this matter:
"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." - Gen 12:3 KJV
"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ... For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" - Rom 11:17-22, 24 KJV
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Old 09-22-2014, 11:01 AM   #37
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OBW, you spoke so well about caring for people. But when I mention the Jews you bring up a creed, a religion. Judaism is a religion. It is not a people. CAN WE, DO WE, LOVE THE JEWS AS GOD ASKS US TO?

Can we respect their position. They are like the first born son in the story of the prodigal. They're a bit jealous that we've been received back by the Father so freely and graciously. If we love them we will show them the love the Father said would provoke them to jealousy. This is what will wake them up to our gospel. and their being woken up will bring about salvation for them and the whole world! THIS IS GOD'S PLAN. IT'S IN WORD. (check my previous posts) Romans 9-11.

It's so easy to misunderstand and poop on them because they're "under the law". GOD GAVE THEM THE LAW AND HE SAYS IN ROMANS 3 IT'S GOOD AND HOLY. We have to become aware and love them for who they are. They are God's firstborn. LOVE.
I think that you misunderstand what I am talking about. I realize that there was not simply an abolishment of the OT covenant and with it a dismissal of everything Hebrew/Jewish. But that is not what I was talking about. I was talking about what it was that the Gentiles were invited into. That was not the Jewish religion, or the Jewish ethnicity. It was an invitation to all mankind to participate with God. The imagery of the olive tree was meaningful to the part of the audience that was of Jewish origins. The Gentiles are now "in" with God. Not that the Gentiles are brought into the religion of the Jews.

One thing that I have found important to see is that God's law and righteousness is what it is. It didn't require the Israelites for it to be so. It didn't require Abraham for it to be so. But God did chose Abraham and his descendants to bring it to mankind. And while He prepared to bring the most important part of it to man, He worked with the Israelites through the law as handed down through Moses, along with the prophets and other teachings/writings afterwards. The goal was not Judaism. It was not sacrifices. It was man living as originally intended — in righteousness as the image bearers of God.

And that was the intent before there was an Abraham. Before there was Adam and Eve.

I did not bring up a creed or religion. At least not in the portion you quoted (Which I think was my whole post). And I did not treat them (the Jews) in any particular way. While there may be a place for seeing Judaism like the older son in the story of the Prodigal's son, that was not my thought or intent. It was not to dismiss the Jews, but to refocus what it was about being grafted-in that was truly important from the standpoint of a Gentile. It was not that they became Jews, but that they had access to God.

Surely the Jew would understand it in a different way. They would see the Gentiles as being invited into a realm that had previously been the exclusive (or at least near-exclusive) domain of the Jews. And that was historically true.

But the point was not the creed, or religion, or any other thing. It was the opening of the way for all mankind to have access to God. Who did I "poop on"? Where did I say anything that was about anyone being "under the law"?

Your entire post seems to be pointed at a position, attitude, etc., that was not part of my post.
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Old 09-22-2014, 12:12 PM   #38
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You sound like someone who has never found a solid Christian church or group of Christians to fellowship with. I don't say this as something to offend you or put you down. It is a very sad thing for me to see how so many former Local Church members have never found such fellowship, and even more tragic is the fact that they are not even looking anymore. They seem to hold the attitude of "fool me once..." The thing is though - and this should be painfully obvious to all us oldies but goodies out there - it was NOT GOD that fooled us, and it was NOT HIS WORD OR THE GOSPEL that fooled us. We were drawn away from the true God and the truth that is reveled in His Word. To some extent we wanted our ears itched and Witness Lee was more than willing and able to do the itching.


When I left the LC in 1978 (I may have relayed this elsewhere) I went back to my roots since I had previously attended two Assemblies of God Bible Colleges. I went to a local AOG church and began praying with 2 brothers every morning at 6am for several months. The Minister asked me to teach the adult sunday school and I built a small tabernacle made out of felt and balsam wood. In my adult sunday school class I shared the spiritual meaning of all the parts of the tabernacle and it was well received. However, after awhile I left for the same reasons I left to join the LC, there was no depth in my opinion.

I remember I went to a AOG meeting in 2006 up in N.C. when I went to see my mother who was dying of lung cancer. I brought along my son and his wife. I have never seen anything like it. It was a total joke. They had several requests for money and one of them people jumped up and ran around buckets where they were supposed to drop in their money.

I tried numerous other Christian churches and again was asked to speak etc but I just couldn't continue. Part of it was the teachings of WL who had attacked other churches and it was ingrained in all of us. Other than that I didn't feel I wanted to or could live up to all the expectations. One day I was reading Rev 3:15 where it states that "I would rather you were hot or cold..." and I decided I am going cold because I am not comfortable with the expectations of being hot--which for me was witnessing every chance I could get, praying all the time, studying the Word every day, etc. I met a missionary and he said he was returning because the US churches had gone downhill and he couldn't find any churches he was comfortable with. Going cold for me was simply being honest with myself and God. No more games, no more lukewarm. Done, I am moving on.

Like I said, I was a true believer and even before I joined the LC I was a part of Teen Challenge where I was witnessing in the inner city of Detroit during the summers while I was attending Bible College or on the board walk in Santa Cruz or involved in many other active Christian organizations which I am sure many LC attendees were as well.

Many of the fundamental churches today have become radicalized politically after the moral majority took over in 1985 under Reagan which raises the challenges for Christians today. I don't know what to think but am quite comfortable with my Unitarian Christian stand. I have been active when I wish to and not active when I want a break. I don't try to arm twist anyone, open to others thinking but firm on my position.

This in part has been my journey.
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Old 09-22-2014, 01:27 PM   #39
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When I left the LC in 1978 (I may have relayed this elsewhere) I went back to my roots since I had previously attended two Assemblies of God Bible Colleges. I went to a local AOG church and began praying with 2 brothers every morning at 6am for several months. The Minister asked me to teach the adult sunday school and I built a small tabernacle made out of felt and balsam wood. In my adult sunday school class I shared the spiritual meaning of all the parts of the tabernacle and it was well received. However, after awhile I left for the same reasons I left to join the LC, there was no depth in my opinion.
Thank you for your heart-felt sharing, Dave.

I am sincerely wondering...How do/did you qualify "depth"?

I used to feel that way about many other Christians until I decided I couldn't be the judge of their depth. What I saw might not tell the story and what was true and real might not be readily visible. I decided it was more how they lived their lives that truly mattered. If there was real consecration and honesty and pursuit of love among one another, to me, that was what really mattered.

I'm learning that there are different ways different saints are before God and faithful to Him. I feel I still have so much to learn.
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Old 09-22-2014, 10:54 PM   #40
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Thank you for your heart-felt sharing, Dave.
I am sincerely wondering...How do/did you qualify "depth"?
I thought I explained "depth" as I mentioned the service I attended where everyone was jumping around buckets asking for cash, the politicization of Christians who are more interested in the values of the Tea Party then in the Christian faith as well as other examples I mentioned. In addition, I noted that my judgement was a result of having been in the LC which judged everyone by their "high" standards. I didn't look favorably on being judgmental.

Mahatma Gandhi carried the Sermon on the Mount around with him his entire life but he also lived it. Certainly there are many Christians who live their values and I have contact with Christians who live their values. Of course, I am convinced that our Christian experience should have an outcome in Social Justice activity e.g. feeding the poor, protesting against injustice--- Jesus stopped the stoning of a woman, "who has not sinned would cast the first stone", stood against the status quo e.g. the Pharisees and Sadducees --- other examples:
Matthew 7:12

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

1 John 3:17-18

But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.
Luke 4:18-19

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Acts 2:45

And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Matthew 25:35-36


For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

Luke 18:1-8

And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’ For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’”

Maybe this was one of the first new testament protestors for her rights?

Matthew 5:46-47

For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?



I think you get the picture. Social Justice is an outcome of our Christian experience.
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Old 09-23-2014, 04:28 AM   #41
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I have to admit, Dave, I don't get you. I wonder...Did you read the Bible and love it and the God of the Bible BEFORE the LCs? Or was your first intro to the Bible and fellowship with God c/o WL?

I have to ask because you seem sour on the truth. Sorry, bro. No offense intended.
I was "saved" in August 1964 and changed from the University of Minnesota to North Central Bible College (AOG), Minneapolis in Sept 1964 to study to be a Minister at age 18. I studied there for 2 years. While attending Bible College I was preaching at churches, Salvation Army, etc as well as I noted elsewhere working during the summers with Teen Challenge in downtown Detroit, an organization founded by David Wilkerson. The Vietnam War was raging and I felt that I would best be served by helping men and women in the armed services so I volunteered for the draft and spent 2 years in the Army with one of those years in Vietnam. I was able to share my faith and lead others to Jesus. When I got out of the service in the fall of 1968 I went to Santa Cruz, Calif to Bethany Bible College (AOG) to continue my studies for the ministry.

It was in early 1969 while I was passing out tracts on the Santa Cruz boardwalk with a friend from the bible college which we did every Saturday night when I met Karl Hammond on the board walk. Previously I had been introduced to WN and read everything of his I could get my hands on. WN did make me leary of what I was learning in Bible college which I felt was more superficial than what I was getting from Nee. In any case, Karl and I spoke that night and he asked me if I ever heard of "The Normal Christian Church Life" which I hadn't but certainly I was interested. It turned out Karl had published this book by WN. It was also the first time I heard of WL.

I began meeting with Karl at 6am every morning with our wives and another couple, we began the church in Santa Cruz which grew to 125 by the summer of 1971 and was made up of primarily young people. I dropped out of Bethany and started attending state universities where I preached the gospel and brought young people into the church as well as started Bible studies on campus' and brought other Christians into the local church. It was the height of my LC experience and Christian experience.

In the summer of 1971 WL asked me if I would move to Detroit in part because I had brought numerous relatives into that church which had begun there. It was also part of the migration and others from different cities also moved to Detroit. When I went to Detroit I continued my studies, all the while preaching the gospel, attending college and holding bible studies as well as visiting neighbor colleges and universities and preaching the gospel of the LC to Christians on campus'. In fact, one of the members on this forum was a Christian I met on campus while in Detroit and introduced him to the LC. I also was in contact a couple years ago with a brother who I brought to Christ and the LC while in Santa Cruz.

In Feb 1974 everyone migrated to Ft. Lauderdale and I have been in Fl ever since then. The church in ft. lauderdale was mostly in chaos it seemed to me while I was there and I don't even think there is a church there anymore. I moved to Miami in 1977 but by then I was in the process of getting out. In 1978 I decided it was time to leave despite Don O trying to talk me out of it but of course he left the LC some time later himself.

I hope I have answered your question. Yes, I was active before I became involved in the LC, during my time with the LC and afterwards as I previously mentioned. When I left the LC in 1978 I went through disappointment/catharsis just as many who were a part of the LC experienced. However, over the years I have moved on as I noted previously.

I am not sour on the "truth" and as I stated, I am a Unitarian Christian and I have been very active. My outlook is based on my experience and my knowledge. I would suggest that our experience needs to result in deeds --- which I have noted with scriptures in some detail elsewhere on this forum --- social justice. Feeding the poor and the homeless, standing up for justice etc. I just don't buy "experience" as an entity in itself without activism. We can argue over various scriptures all day or have heightened experiences at church or in prayer but if it doesn't result in deeds I wonder sometimes how real it is or what are we experiencing. This is a broken world with much that can and should be done. We each need to do our little part no matter how little and our spiritual experiences give us the stamina to do this work.
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Old 09-23-2014, 05:12 AM   #42
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I think that you misunderstand what I am talking about. I realize that there was not simply an abolishment of the OT covenant and with it a dismissal of everything Hebrew/Jewish. But that is not what I was talking about. I was talking about what it was that the Gentiles were invited into. That was not the Jewish religion, or the Jewish ethnicity. It was an invitation to all mankind to participate with God. The imagery of the olive tree was meaningful to the part of the audience that was of Jewish origins. The Gentiles are now "in" with God. Not that the Gentiles are brought into the religion of the Jews.
I hear you O, I just don't separate the two. Psalm 135 says:

I stress this because the truth here was dismissed by WL and so many other Christians as irrelevant. And that's something like what you're doing. I apologize for saying you're "pooping" (Lol) on them. I don't believe that was your intention. But I feel God's calling His people today to love and appreciate and gospelize the Jews now more than ever. And you can't do that with a nonchalant attitude of, "Oh, well, you're not REALLY special to God, at least not anymore...Your culture doesn't really teach me anything....etc.

As an example, yesterday (My husband and I own and operate a storefront; we also work in a very heavily populated Jewish area) an elderly Jewish lady came in for some work to be done that nobody else would do but we did for her. She was very appreciative, so much so that she kept exclaiming, "I'm so happy to have this fixed!" and so forth. I had the sense from the Lord that I needed to do more than receive her praises and thanks. I needed to preach the gospel to her. Now, how could I do that? Just come right out and say, "do you know Jesus? Do you know you're a sinner and He's the lamb of God who died to take away our sins?.... " Well, I could have. But the Lord has been teaching me so much about truly respecting others, not judging them. So, I said to her, "We know God loves ALL people. But we are especially thankful to your people because through them came our Messiah Yeshua! Do you know Him?" She was so tickled and more than accepted a gift of a gospel CD that we had for her. She excitedly said, "I heard some things about Him...I'll have my son help me play this!" As she left I sensed the Lord's joy.

"For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure." - Psa 135:4 KJV
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Old 09-23-2014, 09:40 AM   #43
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I hear you O, I just don't separate the two. Psalm 135 says:

. . . .

"For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure." - Psa 135:4 KJV
Yes. It definitely says that. But what does that mean in terms of the bringing of God's redemption and salvation to the Gentiles? At some level, nothing. I am not saying that it means nothing. But it is not instructive as to the place of the Gentile. It does not indicate that there is anything required of a Gentile toward the Jews, in general or specifically, other than what is required toward all mankind. And that is to love.

This does not diminish God's never-ending love that he has toward those who are of the people who He worked through to bring the ultimate salvation — Jesus. God's love for that treasure remains. But I do not see anything that indicates we have some ongoing requirement to hold he same higher-than-normal love/esteem for them just because there is an OT verse that says God does.

This is not about love or hate for anyone. It is about what I see as an overlay that insists something that I do not see actually contained in the scripture. And that is permeating everything about the understanding of the NT. It is clear that there is much in the OT that provides help in understanding the NT. But that fact does not create an ongoing place of special honor among Christians for Jews. At least not any more honor than we give to anyone. And neither is not seeing this need for special honor of the Jews mean that they are dishonored. They are not. They are not given a place any better or worse than any other. To insist on a Christianity that falls all over certain people and not similarly over everyone else is to have a religion of favoritism. One of the things that Paul warned about in at least two epistles (probably more).

The early church was busy showing favoritism to the Jewish widows over the others. And they set up deacons to fix that. To make sure that everyone got what was right.
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Old 09-23-2014, 10:09 AM   #44
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Yes. It definitely says that. But what does that mean in terms of the bringing of God's redemption and salvation to the Gentiles? At some level, nothing. I am not saying that it means nothing. But it is not instructive as to the place of the Gentile. It does not indicate that there is anything required of a Gentile toward the Jews, in general or specifically, other than what is required toward all mankind. And that is to love.

This does not diminish God's never-ending love that he has toward those who are of the people who He worked through to bring the ultimate salvation — Jesus. God's love for that treasure remains. But I do not see anything that indicates we have some ongoing requirement to hold he same higher-than-normal love/esteem for them just because there is an OT verse that says God does.
Please consider this passage. It was never taught by WL but it's right there in Romans 11:

"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? ... For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ... For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: ... Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. ... O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" - Rom 11:12, 15, 25-26, 31, 33 KJV

Do these verses not indicate that the latter day turn of Israel to their Messiah will bring about the long-awaited and longed for salvation of the whole world? "life from the dead" (vs. 15) clearly indicated a monumental revival of the world! Note that they are to obtain mercy through our showing them mercy. And this scenario appears right before the Messiah's return!


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This is not about love or hate for anyone. It is about what I see as an overlay that insists something that I do not see actually contained in the scripture. And that is permeating everything about the understanding of the NT. It is clear that there is much in the OT that provides help in understanding the NT. But that fact does not create an ongoing place of special honor among Christians for Jews. At least not any more honor than we give to anyone. And neither is not seeing this need for special honor of the Jews mean that they are dishonored. They are not. They are not given a place any better or worse than any other. To insist on a Christianity that falls all over certain people and not similarly over everyone else is to have a religion of favoritism. One of the things that Paul warned about in at least two epistles (probably more).

The early church was busy showing favoritism to the Jewish widows over the others. And they set up deacons to fix that. To make sure that everyone got what was right.
I believe the entire Bible supports the fact that every individual's attitude toward this particular people is a litmus test of their belief and obedience to God, and of their consequent blessing. This principle in the Bible carries through to its consummation. It's GOD who gave them this special honor. Shouldn't we? Note history's story of Satan's constant persecution of this people even through the church, especially at the Council of Nicaea and others. Look at where Israel is in the news and has been since they've re-inhabited their promised land. Is this just happenstance? I don't believe so. The whole world is dividing over the issue of Israel.

You are right to say it's not appropriate to "fall over" any people. I'm talking about honoring God and therefore I'm obliged to Him in loving them.
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Old 09-23-2014, 12:26 PM   #45
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Do these verses not indicate that the latter day turn of Israel to their Messiah will bring about the long-awaited and longed for salvation of the whole world? "life from the dead" (vs. 15) clearly indicated a monumental revival of the world! Note that they are to obtain mercy through our showing them mercy. And this scenario appears right before the Messiah's return!
Actually, I read something quite different than what you seem to see. And I see something that is problematic for the die-hard Calvinist as well.

As I previously mentioned, Paul has said that we are now grafted into the tree of the people of God. Yet some of the original branches were broken off. And it was their hardness of heart in disbelief that made the way (rejecting the Messiah and crucifying him).

I do not see your analysis of v15. It seems to say that their rejection was the reconciliation of the world. And more importantly, those that are later accepted are like life from death. Not our death but theirs. Not our life but theirs.

Here is where the Calvinists should be rethinking. Verses 22 and 23 indicate that just like them, if we do not continue in God's kindness, we will be cut off. And in the mean time those who were formerly cut off, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted back in. A good speech designed to silence any "us v them" pride but instead turn them to a sober consideration of where they are and what is required.

And doting on Israel is not provided as the litmus test. Here or anywhere else. Oh, there is the OT promise about "they will prosper that love thee" or something like that. But the context and applicability to today is highly suspect.

Once again, not saying to diss them. But rather to put everyone in perspective. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, rich nor poor. Instead, Christ is all and in all. We are one. We have much in common.

These verses may sort of support your theory when read in the somewhat terse and archaic KJV. Read the newer translations. There is no edict to have special care for Israel. (And the KJV doesn't really say it. Just the strange wording of 400+ years ago seems to.) And nothing stating that the end time will be heralded in by the return of Israel to belief. Rather that they will find themselves back "in" when they return to belief.

There is an in and out (not the burgers). There is in Christ and there is not in Christ. Those who are out can become in.

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I believe the entire Bible supports the fact that every individual's attitude toward this particular people is a litmus test of their belief and obedience to God, and of their consequent blessing. This principle in the Bible carries through to its consummation.
This is "simply" another kind of rhetorical device, used particularly by Lee in the opening of The Economy of God to make an assertion that no one has the wherewithal to undertake to prove or disprove. It is a sort of combination of a number of logical fallacies.

The first is essentially a combination of the onus probandi (shifting the burden of proof) and proof by verbosity. You say that you believe that "the entire Bible" supports your views on special burdens on Gentile believers concerning their care for Israel. You have thrown the entire Bible into the evidence pool, yet have so far given only one extremely weak excerpt that you think supports this. So by saying the entire Bible supports it, you try to require that I find where it is disproved. Instead, you need to first establish how you think it is shown. I and others can respond to that.

But because you think that something means something that it does not say (a form of confirmation bias) does not make it so. If it does not say it, you have to establish why it is so.

And we have spent a lot of time in past years reading through Lee's assertions that "X" really means "Y" because of "God's economy." Of course his version of God's economy is not what I understand it to be, and even if it were, it does not stand in as an overlay with which to reread and alter the meaning of scripture.

I know that I easily come off as harsh and cold. I'm one of those rather introverted types that is hard to deal with. I am not picking on you. But like some beliefs I have held in the past, I see some that need to be challenged. I would rather you throw off your overlay and colored glasses for just a minute and see something without the filter. That would be much better than liking me. I promised someone to be kinder to people, but in these situations it is just hard for many of us to separate our ideas from our person. I am not my beliefs. I have changed them because I found them wanting. I understand that you have as well. But I fear that you may have fallen into more of the same. Maybe less egregious, but still reading the Bible through a rather serious set of colored, Coke-bottle glasses.

You won't have to dismiss Israel or the Jews if you let go of this. But I believe it is providing a somewhat skewed view of the Bible. The Bible is not the story of the Jews. It is the story of God. God and his dealings with man. He created something "very good" and has spent the past 6,000 years or so (assuming that the earliest parts of Genesis are not heavily metaphorical) working to bring us back without just forcing it on us. The Jews were part of that. Now you add in the Church and the rest of humanity.

Drop the "entirety" thing and make a case with actual facts. Trust me. If you make it well enough, I can be convinced. I have been convinced before. Even after being sure of something else previously.
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Old 09-23-2014, 06:46 PM   #46
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Actually, I read something quite different than what you seem to see. And I see something that is problematic for the die-hard Calvinist as well.

As I previously mentioned, Paul has said that we are now grafted into the tree of the people of God.
Okay, O. Then if there is such a tree of God's people wouldn't an analysis of that tree look just like the Israelites as they are so vividly displayed as He led, saved, instructed, and nurtured them? I mean, come on... The Bible is their story. Sometimes, after reading recently I've sat back and cringed at the thought of having all mine and my people's sins and failures laid out in black & white in the best selling book of all time....

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I do not see your analysis of v15. It seems to say that their rejection was the reconciliation of the world. And more importantly, those that are later accepted are like life from death. Not our death but theirs. Not our life but theirs.
This is how I see and maintain the pattern:

"For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" - Rom 11:15 KJV

Their casting away is the world's reconciliation.
Their receiving is the world's experience of resurrection.

I think consistency wins out, don't you?

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Here is where the Calvinists should be rethinking. Verses 22 and 23 indicate that just like them, if we do not continue in God's kindness, we will be cut off. And in the mean time those who were formerly cut off, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted back in. A good speech designed to silence any "us v them" pride but instead turn them to a sober consideration of where they are and what is required.
Agreed.

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And doting on Israel is not provided as the litmus test. Here or anywhere else.
Not doting necessarily, but at least some evidence of acknowledging HIS love for His people and assenting to it and cooperating with it.

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Oh, there is the OT promise about "they will prosper that love thee" or something like that. But the context and applicability to today is highly suspect.

Suspect? Really? I'll suspect your rationale before I suspect my God's promise! My God is a God of covenant. This makes Him the most trustworthy One. And this is why I love Him. His promises are absolutely dependable, now and always. His gifts and calling are irrevocable! Israel is the first to know His faithful character. He models it for them. They model both the proper and wrong response for all of us! And we learn from all their mistakes! (Hopefully :-D) We have MUCH to be thankful to them for!

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Once again, not saying to diss them.
Well, honestly... I think you already have. But that's par for the Christian course.

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But rather to put everyone in perspective. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, rich nor poor. Instead, Christ is all and in all. We are one. We have much in common.
Now, that's not what these verses mean. That's like saying there's no longer any male or female, (which IS in the verse) but the last time I looked those distinctions were more than evident. No. The context in both passages indicate that Paul is saying that God is not a respecter of persons; we are all on equal footing before Him.

We are free to be what HE MADE US TO BE. (This has a lot of application, especially with the license taken today regarding sexual orientation) We are expected to be what he made us to be. As an Italian/Irish/German I am free to bear, to exhibit, and to enjoy all that's part of who I am. This is one my pet peeves with WL's teaching. He really made our church life culture into something stiff, narrow, and sterile. And it's not healthy. All kinds of things can come in when we refuse or are afraid to be who we are. Something has to fill the void.

No. Other portions of scripture support the fact that we are to remain in what we were when we were called, so far as harmless characteristics and traditions go. (Do you need proofs? I'll give them...if you want. But I'm a slow typist )

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These verses (Romans 11) may sort of support your theory when read in the somewhat terse and archaic KJV. Read the newer translations. There is no edict to have special care for Israel.
I beg your pardon.

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." - Gen 12:3 KJV

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." - Deu 14:2 KJV
"And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;" - Deu 26:18 KJV

The following passage is just one of too many to count which expresses His choosing of Israel, his especial love for her, and His faithfulness to complete what He began in her:

"But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King." - Isa 43:1-15 KJV

This passage also prophesys what has especially transpired in the last few decades with so many ministries flying Jews from all over the world back to their homeland.

I'm not wearing coke bottle glasses but I think you must be wearing blinders

Gee, OBW, the whole Bible really IS full of endless displays of God's affection and determination with regards to Israel! And if HE feels that way, shouldn't we?!
I don't know where to go next.... Okay, how about a bit of Jeremiah:

"At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people. Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest. The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry. Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things. For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God. For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel. Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither. They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock." - Jer 31:1-10 KJV

Next, Jesus said He came for the "lost sheep of the house of Israel". That was His priority. The Jew first.

Paul carried on that pattern. The gospel (he said) is "to the Jew first" (that's in some kind of continuing present tense) And Acts shows how he went to the synagogue first before he approached the Gentiles in every city to which he went.


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And we have spent a lot of time in past years reading through Lee's assertions that "X" really means "Y" because of "God's economy.... it does not stand in as an overlay with which to reread and alter the meaning of scripture.
Exactly, and precisely my observation. I've come back to taking the Bible literally and letting the Bible interpret the Bible.

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I know that I easily come off as harsh and cold. I'm one of those rather introverted types that is hard to deal with. I am not picking on you. But like some beliefs I have held in the past, I see some that need to be challenged. I would rather you throw off your overlay and colored glasses for just a minute and see something without the filter. That would be much better than liking me. I promised someone to be kinder to people, but in these situations it is just hard for many of us to separate our ideas from our person. I am not my beliefs. I have changed them because I found them wanting. I understand that you have as well. But I fear that you may have fallen into more of the same. Maybe less egregious, but still reading the Bible through a rather serious set of colored, Coke-bottle glasses.

You won't have to dismiss Israel or the Jews if you let go of this. But I believe it is providing a somewhat skewed view of the Bible. The Bible is not the story of the Jews. It is the story of God. God and his dealings with man. He created something "very good" and has spent the past 6,000 years or so (assuming that the earliest parts of Genesis are not heavily metaphorical) working to bring us back without just forcing it on us. The Jews were part of that. Now you add in the Church and the rest of humanity.

Drop the "entirety" thing and make a case with actual facts. Trust me. If you make it well enough, I can be convinced. I have been convinced before. Even after being sure of something else previously.
Thank you for your kindness, your sincerity, and well thought out response

I'm not at all offended. I like a challenge. I am, however, disappointed with my poor job and impatient with myself to "get it all out". Obviously, if I take on "the whole Bible in its entirety" I've bitten off more than I can chew in one sitting. This may take some time. I'll just have to provide a piece here and a piece there, O.

And I see some things are not as obvious to you (and others) as they are to me. If I tell you my genuine experience that has merit, but it's impossible for me to convey MY "revelation" with one or any combination of verses unless it just comes to you... Words can only do so much

Thanks for listening... Until next time, you are blessed!
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Old 09-23-2014, 08:32 PM   #47
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NOT! I see how high that hill is and realize it's just a waste of effort and energy. First level it with dynamite, then this engine will try. I'll even try with no rails. I prefer to be off the rails anyways. Chug chug. I feel like the little engine that couldn't.
I couldn't agree more. There wasn't much of chance to climb that hill in the LC because even if you were able to reach the top, when you arrived, guess what, another hill, just keep this picture going until infinity. Unfortunately even some ex-LCer's want others to climb a similar hill with their new found "faith" and ideas. I'm not saying there are no standards but each has to live with their own hill climbing and be careful about what you wish for.
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Old 09-23-2014, 09:00 PM   #48
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. . . each has to live with their own hill climbing and be careful about what you wish for.
I'll say. Can't tell you how many times what I wished for when found became nothing but pixie dust and fairy tales ; believing can sometimes, more often than should, become make-believing.
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Old 09-23-2014, 09:24 PM   #49
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5qPiEjvCFlw
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Old 09-24-2014, 03:48 AM   #50
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What a peculiar idea. What, is working out the second coming like a complex combination lock ; if we can only get the tumblers just right and on the right numbers Jesus has to come back?

Why don't we just go to Jerusalem and blow up the Temple Mount, to get things rolling?

Yet the promise of doing just that has been used to fleece the sheep more times than can be counted.

And I've read that the selling of the promise of the second coming has been a big hit in mainland China, merchandising on a big scale.

I guess when your miserable and hate life and this awful ugly world the second coming is an easy sell.

Not only you fell for it Dancing, so did I.
That is rather humorous, "second coming like a complex combination lock". I remember back in 1967 after the Seven Day Israeli/Arab War when I heard Ministers proclaiming the Second Coming was near because of the land captured by Israel. It was the "thing".

In reference to the Awakenings which started in the 18th century (1740) with last one in the 20th century reminds me of William Miller, a Baptist minister, who had "discovered" the exact period when the Lord would return, sometime between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844. Well those days passed and nothing happened so another date was set ,April 18, 1844, based on the Karaite Jewish calendar. Hundreds followed him up a mountain dressed in white to be raptured on one of those dates. However, guess what folks, nothing happened. Here is one of his followers (Millerities) J.V. Himes timeline charts if you want to call it that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William...43_chart_2.jpg Just keep clicking on it and you can read the detail.

On the other hand numerous sects emerged as a result of Miller's preoccupation with end time predictions to include the Seven Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah Witness and many lesser known groups. In any case, Miller confessed his error, "I confess my error, and acknowledge my disappointment; yet I still believe that the day of the Lord is near, even at the door." This was back in 1844. Since that time some Christians and others have been much more preoccupied with "end times" predictions then previously. Keep predicting and good luck!
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Old 09-24-2014, 05:17 AM   #51
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Dancing,

The thing is that the verses that you have quoted were all things said to people at a particular time and place, not statements made in a manner that indicates permanence and ongoing fact. Said to Abraham. Said to the children of Israel as they were about to enter the good land.

It is clear that God used Abraham, and through him the children of Israel to bring Christ and the full salvation. And it is clear that he first offered his salvation to them.

But salvation is a matter of faith and belief in Jesus, not in favoritism to Jews. Again, nothing against Jews. Just not some magical overlay. You say you have taken off the glasses and are just reading the plain word of God. It says to a person, or to a people, in a point in time, that they have a special place and that the attitude and actions of others toward them will be important. It does not say that it is a permanent status or promise. This is something read into it.

But if you want to read into it, I guess there is not much that can be said. If that is your version of "the pure word" then I can only offer an alternative. You say you have taken off the LRC's overlay, but you admit that it is something you have experienced. And the feeling that a good experience can give is often better than the mundane of truth.

And truth is just truth, not some level of euphoria. And many here are still seeking a return to that near euphoric state of the early days of the LRC. They think that they have to get the feeling back to have found the truth in Christ. (I hear a Barry Manilow song coming on.)

Salvation is in Christ. Not Christ and something else. Not the church. Not the Jews. Not in works.

And once saved, there are works. But they are encapsulated in loving — God and others. Not just some others. Or some others more than other others. All loved the same as you love yourself. That is the new covenant. God may still have the old covenant with Israel. But we were not asked to have the old covenant with Israel.

You said
Quote:
Then if there is such a tree of God's people wouldn't an analysis of that tree look just like the Israelites
That tree was the Israelites. But your version of the grafting of the Gentiles in is the immediate acceptance of Gentiles into the Jewish religion. But that was not the case. It was grafting in the Gentiles as people of God. Your theology is based on the insistence that a particular metaphor can only mean one thing. Like some around here think about leaven. But in some places leaven is something inundating the truth and watering it down. In another, leaven is the kingdom of God.

Context is important and these "God once said it to someone so it is a promise or command to me today" understanding of scripture ignore context. That is how we get the Prayer of Jabez. A version of the prosperity gospel for many. But that prayer and the results were particular, not universally promissory.
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Old 09-24-2014, 07:55 AM   #52
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Dancing,

The thing is that the verses that you have quoted were all things said to people at a particular time and place, not statements made in a manner that indicates permanence and ongoing fact....It does not say that it is a permanent status or promise. This is something read into it.
No. Then you don’t believe God is a God of His Word. You believe that what was promised to the Jew is annulled once they as a nation failed to receive His Messiah. Correct? But I say to you, and the Bible says to all of us, that God is a God of covenant. What does this mean? It means He keeps His word. He doesn’t say, “Ooops. You blew it. I’m done with you. All my promises are null and void.” If this is your take on God’s character then what’s to stop Him from disowning you or me? No, to say God is a God of covenant is not to “read into it or say something that’s not there”. It just means He NEVER goes back on His Word. Therefore, it behooves us to seek to know it and cooperate with it.
[QUOTE=OBW;34811]

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...you admit that it is something you have experienced. And the feeling that a good experience can give is often better than the mundane of truth.

And truth is just truth, not some level of euphoria. And many here are still seeking a return to that near euphoric state of the early days of the LRC. They think that they have to get the feeling back to have found the truth in Christ. (I hear a Barry Manilow song coming on.)
So truth is to exist without experience? Really? I feel schizophrenia coming on again… So having feeling invalidates the truth claimed? Do you see a problem with that logic? Do you understand the difference between the Hebrew and Greek mindset? You are definitely of the latter. The Greeks break everything down into its parts for analysis, thereby separating that which doesn't exist separately! The Hebrews see everything from the point of its wholeness. God is a Hebrew. I can be so bold to say that. Jesus is a Jew. Always has been and always will.

Let me clarify one important thing: I am NOT saying that God loves Jews more than others and that we should also. I AM saying that God chose them and we are to honor His selection. I AM saying that His promises to THEM will never fail as He likewise will never fail US. By showing deference and appreciation to the Jews we are merely following His prescription for world salvation. That doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate ALL people. It’s just a matter seeing the way He’s chosen to carry His plan and cooperating. That’s what He’s seeking.

And you’re a little off regarding truth and euphoria. Truth is truth. But truth is more than doctrine. We know it’s a person. Again at center is the issue of wholeness. Yeshua is whole. He is body, soul, and spirit. He has a mind, a will, AND EMOTION. Don’t try to separate His emotion from Him.

Euphoria is an emotion. But I do believe (and I sympathize with those who miss that euphoria) that God knows we need joy. Yes, the joy of the Lord is our strength. He’s not stingy or mean. He WANTS to give us His joy. But I think He has indicated in His Word HOW we can obtain that joy. As a matter of fact, I’ve been wanting to start a new thread on “the virtues of being a child”. Trusting Him absolutely, that is, taking Him completely AT HIS WORD is one requirement for experiencing joy. Another is honor and obedience. We need both. However, remember: we mustn’t first and foremost SEEK joy. First we seek to be in a condition that allows Him to give us joy. That condition is of trusting and obeying. Do you remember this wonderful, timeless old hymn?:

When we walk with the Lord in the light of His Word,
What a glory He sheds on our way!
While we do His good will, He abides with us still,
And with all who will trust and obey.

Refrain:
Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies,
But His smile quickly drives it away;
Not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear,
Can abide while we trust and obey.

Not a burden we bear, not a sorrow we share,
But our toil He doth richly repay;
Not a grief or a loss, not a frown or a cross,
But is blessed if we trust and obey.

But we never can prove the delights of His love
Until all on the altar we lay;
For the favor He shows, for the joy He bestows,
Are for them who will trust and obey.


Then in fellowship sweet we will sit at His feet,
Or we’ll walk by His side in the way;
What He says we will do, where He sends we will go;
Never fear, only trust and obey.

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Salvation is in Christ. Not Christ and something else. Not the church. Not the Jews. Not in works.
Very doctrinal. Christ is a Jew. He came as a Jew and He returns as a Jew to rule from Jerusalem. How can you honor Christ without honoring His Jewishness?

Your doctrine is too abstract, impractical. God's not that way. He is very very practical and simple. Just read His Word and believe it. Don't assign it to some past age. He is timeless as is His Word.

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... But your version of the grafting of the Gentiles in is the immediate acceptance of Gentiles into the Jewish religion.
No, not religion, culture. Their culture was designed and built by God. We can read ALL about it in the Old Covenant scriptures. There’s SO MUCH to learn from it.

And there’s nothing that says we have to become Jewish. I wish everyone harping on this would please read what I’m writing. I just see harping. I don’t see evidence of much registration of reading what I’ve written.

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Context is important and these "God once said it to someone so it is a promise or command to me today" understanding of scripture ignore context. That is how we get the Prayer of Jabez. A version of the prosperity gospel for many. But that prayer and the results were particular, not universally promissory.
I seems to me you’re the one ignoring context. Your Christ is in a very small compartment. That compartment seems air-tight and inflexible. Is your concept of Yeshua growing or changing to agree with God’s Word? If you want to grow I tell you you’ll limit your own growth as you limit God. Yes, the prayer of Jabez can be misapplied, but please don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater! There are timeless principles here!
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Old 09-24-2014, 10:04 AM   #53
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No. Then you don’t believe God is a God of His Word.
Or could it be no more than a difference of opinion?
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Old 09-24-2014, 02:52 PM   #54
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No. Then you don’t believe God is a God of His Word.
I would counter that you are not focused on what he actually said, but on what someone tells you that he said that he actually did not say. God is a God of his word. But you assume that the words he spoke were universally endless rather than timely and pertinent to the "present" (the time of the speaking).

We get into the same argument with people who declare that if God is not willing that any should perish, and he is all-powerful and is therefore able to make it so that none actually perish, that he must necessarily do so. That presumes that restraint cannot be exercised in opposition to his own will.

What you are insisting upon is that a promise made in the time of their wandering and on the brink of entering the good land was intended to be an everlasting fact for all times and was required to be observed in a very outward way by Christians otherwise their salvation is suspect. (If you think you have not said this, then you need to review your own posts.) Show me where and how it is clearly intended as for all times and in all ways without assuming that God does not put limits on his statements or make contextual statements.

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You believe that what was promised to the Jew is annulled once they as a nation failed to receive His Messiah. Correct?
Incorrect. At least in part. But the fact that the covenant was not annulled does not mean that every promise made in every circumstance at a point in time remains and that all going forward are still bound by it. You are making an assertion about the perpetual effect of something that in some cases was not meant in terms of perpetual until the time of Christ. Or even until the person(s) to whom a particular promise was spoke were no longer around.

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But I say to you, and the Bible says to all of us, that God is a God of covenant. What does this mean? It means He keeps His word. He doesn’t say, “Ooops. You blew it. I’m done with you. All my promises are null and void.”
You are assuming that everything God ever said becomes part of the covenant. If that is the case, then there could be no exile. And if there was, then there could be no return. These are not "oops" things. They are part of the workings of God.

The key in all of this is that even the story of the Jews is not simply their story, but the story of God. It is the story of his bringing his own "right and wrong" back to mankind. Of returning mankind to the proper status. yes, he chose Abraham and his descendants to have it brought about in men rather than through an "act of God."

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If this is your take on God’s character then what’s to stop Him from disowning you or me?
Did you read the part (in Romans, I think it was) where he said to the Gentiles that they better watch themselves or they could find themselves as broken branches just like so many of the Jews. Do you at least have some concern that there could be a form of disowning in that? Or do we just declare that Calvin is right and ignore it. Maybe it is not simply disowning. But it reads as something pretty serious.

And I might wonder about God's character if there weren't at least some consequence for our actions after believing.

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So truth is to exist without experience? Really?
Absolutely. Truth is solid and real. Experience is fleeting and fickle.

You ask whether feeling invalidates the truth. You must have read what I said while standing on your head. I said that feelings validate something but it may not be truth. Truth is truth whether you feel it or not. It doesn't matter if you like it. If it is true then it is true.

I would agree that the Christian experience must be consistent with the truth they claim. And there is a history of having the strongest and best theology that they really don't believe because they don't actually live as if it is true.

But that is not the kind of experience I was talking about. I was talking about experience in terms of a feeling. If you feel it then it must be true. If you feel good about it, then it is OK. Didn't you get enough of that kind of manipulation of thought through feelings in the LRC? Get stirred-up positively at the time that something actually nonsensical is being taught and you are likely to swallow it hook, line, and sinker because you felt good about it.

You are right that the Greek mindset was more on getting the thoughts straight and expecting that everything else would then be OK. But if you instead rely on your feelings, emotions, etc., which are what comes out of "experience" you could be coming to trust in something that is not even remotely true or trustworthy. What was it that was said, how can they believe if they have not heard. It has to enter through the mind to be processed then accepted. And despite the uber-Calvinist view of grace, there is a step that must be taken by man before he obtains salvation. It is not any kind of "work." But you have to believe. Have faith. Even just a little. Then the salvation is granted. After that, the experiences begin. And by that, I mean the living out of the faith you claim to have.

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Let me clarify one important thing: I am NOT saying that God loves Jews more than others and that we should also. I AM saying that God chose them and we are to honor His selection.
But nothing I have suggested so far stand against this. His choice is honored. The question is not whether God's selection is honored. It is whether we are required to specially honor the Jews as a result.

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By showing deference and appreciation to the Jews we are merely following His prescription for world salvation.
And here is the clincher. His prescription for world salvation was Jesus. Yes, the Jew named Jesus. But that salvation comes from trusting and belief in him, not in his Jew-ness. "Believe on the Jew-ness of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

I see how God carried out his plan. It was detailed and lengthy. It started with mankind that rejected him as their source. It went downhill from there. Then it sort of stagnated until he decided to call Abraham. A man who probably had worshipped some idols prior to that calling. Then his offspring grow in number and eventually dwell in the land of Canaan. But due to lack of diligence to remain faithful to God and his commands (and promises), they were taken into captivity for 70 years. After that, besides the return of some, they were then scattered all over the earth by various means. Then after a little time, Jesus came. Their Messiah. And they didn't recognize him. Of course, that was expected and even prophesied about. But without that, part of the plan would not be complete. Death, burial, and resurrection. And the edict to go tell the world of the salvation of Jesus Christ.

Not the salvation of Jesus Christ along with a special love for the Jews. Just the commands that he gave which were all summed up in love God and love your neighbor as yourself. And Jews are among those neighbors.

. . . .

That is a good song. I've sung it recently. But songs are not the source of theology. They may contain good theology. But sometimes they don't. It is better to get your theology from somewhere else, just in case the song is not quite theologically sound.


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Very doctrinal. Christ is a Jew. He came as a Jew and He returns as a Jew to rule from Jerusalem. How can you honor Christ without honoring His Jewishness?
Of course. Just as you can honor me without honoring my "overwieghtness" or my baldness (well, bald spot on the crown of my head). Not saying that being a Jew is a negative thing. But it is a trait. And the traits of Christ that are important are that he was God and man (without respect of ethnicity), was perfect and sinless, died as a sacrifice for the sins of all, died and was buried, then rose from the grave and provides us with the right to rely on his sacrifice to stand in the place of our own need to die to answer for our sins. Nothing in that required him to be a Jew other than that he started off (as a man) from within the people that God had chosen generations past for the purpose.

You are imbuing factors not important to salvation with greater weight than scripture does.

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Your doctrine is too abstract, impractical. God's not that way. He is very, very practical and simple. Just read His Word and believe it. Don't assign it to some past age. He is timeless as is His Word.
Never did any such thing. But neither can you say that because it was once said or promised in a context that it is, by definition for now and for you. Otherwise we should never have a need for water because we could always just speak to a rock and water would pour forth. I know. You will dismiss that one as ridiculous. The difference between you and me is not that I think there are defined limits on some things, it is that we differ on where those limits reside and where they do not. You are convinced that if there it not a stated limit that it is limitless. Or if it is not ridiculous to think it is applicable now, then it simply must be. I look at it more completely. Is there a reason for the command, declaration, promise, etc., that is less than universal and timeless. If so, then it must at least be considered that it could have been only for the time.

Even like the single statement by John in Revelation where there is a woe to anyone to adds to or removes from the words of this prophecy (or something like that). Which words? The ones in Revelation? Or the ones in the existing Bible (mostly OT, but not all NT). Or the OT/NT was eventually to be? Seems that most think the whole Bible. I don't really care since I do not intend to add to or subtract from any of it. But I think it may have only been referring to Revelation.

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No, not religion, culture. Their culture was designed and built by God. We can read ALL about it in the Old Covenant scriptures. There’s SO MUCH to learn from it.
Sorry. This is really off the rails. I will refrain from saying much more other than to suggest that someone really does not understand the Bible and they have taught you well. Another Lee with a different shtick.


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I seems to me you’re the one ignoring context. Your Christ is in a very small compartment. That compartment seems air-tight and inflexible. Is your concept of Yeshua growing or changing to agree with God’s Word? If you want to grow I tell you you’ll limit your own growth as you limit God. Yes, the prayer of Jabez can be misapplied, but please don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater! There are timeless principles here!
Small compartment? Mine is equally the God of all mankind. Yours is the God of those who appreciate the Jews. That is not the gospel. It might actually be a different gospel.

And Christ is not entirely flexible. There are many who have determined that since Christians have been able to find their way to equality for women, an end to slavery, and so many other closely-held beliefs and practices, that we can find our way to anything, like open acceptance of practicing homosexuals. As you rightly said, you have to agree with God's word.

And the new covenant is not a covenant of the lineage of man, but the gift of God. It must be understood in the context of the current culture, but is firmly founded in the truth of God. And the truth of God as proclaimed as the "gospel of salvation" is not predicated on anything about Jews or Judaism. You say that we don't have to favor the Jews, but then you effectively say we must.
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Old 09-24-2014, 06:55 PM   #55
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I would counter that you are not focused on what he actually said, but on what someone tells you that he said that he actually did not say. God is a God of his word. But you assume that the words he spoke were universally endless rather than timely and pertinent to the "present" (the time of the speaking)....
So, what was promised isn't really promised anymore. What was true is only true at a certain time. Then it's not true anymore. And what is yes is really no. Okay. I get you OBW.
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Old 09-24-2014, 09:11 PM   #56
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Seems Dancing is advocating for all of us to pick up stones.
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Old 09-25-2014, 01:21 AM   #57
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Sorry. This is really off the rails. I will refrain from saying much more other than to suggest that someone really does not understand the Bible and they have taught you well. Another Lee with a different shtick.
The Lord reminded me of this scripture ...
Let the women be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but let them be subject, as The Law also says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home. (I Cor. 14.34-35)
A healthy word of salvation from the Law to save us from false prophets who wield a "different shtick."
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:16 AM   #58
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So, what was promised isn't really promised anymore. What was true is only true at a certain time. Then it's not true anymore. And what is yes is really no. Okay. I get you OBW.
Depends on who to and how the promise is made. If it is made directly to Abraham without reference to others, then it is a promise to Abraham, not me. If it is a declaration to the children of Israel as they travel en masse through the lands of potential enemies, or as they set out to enter Canaan, and there is no specific mention of universality, then it is easy to see it as having a context.

You are being taught to view God's promises as always universal and never-ending without any indication that it is true other than someone wants it to be so. If those for whom the promise is intended are dead, then the promise is not enforceable by others. If I owe you money, if you die, I am not relieved of my obligation. Neither if I make a life-long commitment to you and your offspring. But a promise specifically to you without comment on duration is not automatically of never-ending duration just because of some misinterpretation of the statement that God never changes. God, just like anyone else, can make a specific promise of specific duration without being fickle when the promise reaches its logical conclusion and it is no longer honored. Besides, do you have any evidence that God made those promises to you?

I didn't think so.
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:19 AM   #59
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The Lord reminded me of this scripture ...
Let the women be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but let them be subject, as The Law also says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home. (I Cor. 14.34-35)
A healthy word of salvation from the Law to save us from false prophets who wield a "different shtick."
Generally not much of an argument. It is not a good idea to try to defeat an argument by declaring that the other party does not have the right to make an argument.

Besides, unless you want to declare the very presence of more than two Christians in this forum as being "church," then it is not a relevant passage. And I don't think you want to go there. To do so would be the equivalent of returning women to the "barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" days.
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:33 AM   #60
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Generally not much of an argument. It is not a good idea to try to defeat an argument by declaring that the other party does not have the right to make an argument.

Besides, unless you want to declare the very presence of more than two Christians in this forum as being "church," then it is not a relevant passage. And I don't think you want to go there. To do so would be the equivalent of returning women to the "barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen" days.
Do only those two extremes exist? What about that "excluded middle" awareness talks about?

Do you think that Paul's word here is a safeguard to protect women from the shtick?
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:44 AM   #61
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Do only those two extremes exist? What about that "excluded middle" awareness talks about?

Do you think that Paul's word here is a safeguard to protect women from the shtick?
I think that it was an edict of uncertain bounds that was designed to keep women (in that place in that time, or in all places at all times — there is argument over that) from being in a place of authority. Who knows, it might have been intended to keep people from thinking that the local Christian group was simply a sub-sect of the local pagan religion that was run by women.

In any case, it seems to be about authority and none of us are in a position of authority here — except Unto when he actually wields it. Some of us come off like we think we know everything. But we don't. And we generally know it.
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Old 09-25-2014, 06:43 AM   #62
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I think that it was an edict of uncertain bounds that was designed to keep women (in that place in that time, or in all places at all times — there is argument over that) from being in a place of authority. Who knows, it might have been intended to keep people from thinking that the local Christian group was simply a sub-sect of the local pagan religion that was run by women.

In any case, it seems to be about authority and none of us are in a position of authority here — except Unto when he actually wields it. Some of us come off like we think we know everything. But we don't. And we generally know it.
I would say what is most obvious to me but I'm afraid it's the thing missed most or believed least here.
And that is, THE LORD'S WORD IS THE AUTHORITY. It should be. That's what this thread was established for. What HE SAYS should be the final authority.

Satan was the first to question God's word. God told Adam (and Eve) that on the day they ate of the fruit of that tree they would die. He said, "Hath God said...?" He, too, was brilliant at diverting Eve's attention from the truth and undermining it. I've simply presented God's word. To say it doesn't matter in this time in this place or with us is just like saying God's word to Eve doesn't apply to us when we know without a doubt it applies. Not only does it apply to us, her (and Adam's) error was passed to the whole human race! And even as "believers" we make that very same choice today and everyday, all day. What, I should say WHO do we choose to believe?

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." - Jhn 12:48 KJV
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:21 AM   #63
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THE LORD'S WORD IS THE AUTHORITY.
So does that mean you are being the submissive wife and are going to your husband for learning? Or are you beating him with the law, like the dead horse above? I fear the latter.

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"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." - Jhn 12:48 KJV
Rebuking and judging? Now I'm double glad I don't live with a law keeper.
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:21 AM   #64
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So, once again, I'll just put on display God's Word:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.... I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ... What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. ... I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? ... For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. ... For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." - Rom 11:4-5, 7-8, 11-12, 15-18, 29 KJV


The Lord will complete that which He began with Israel. We would be wise to take note of His purposes and say, "Amen!" and offer ourselves to Him anew.

Even to simply to pray His Word, to join our hearts to His, is precious to Him.

I appreciated what one poster admonished us to do, ie., listen for His voice in His Word. Ask Him to help us to see what He sees and to feel what He feels. I've been praying this prayer many many years. I've heard His voice since my earliest days, for my heart was soft to Him and I didn't want it to ever become hardened to His voice.

I've learned over these 38 years of knowing the Lord ( from 6 years pre-LC) that being simple and humble in receiving His Word like a child is critical. That, and OBEYING it, is the only way to maintain my hearing ability. Like the poster said, we must be clean, ie., have our hearts cleansed of all bitterness and unforgiveness.

"The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" - Mat 6:22-23 KJV
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Old 09-25-2014, 07:40 AM   #65
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"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.... I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ... What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. ... I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? ... For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. ... For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." - Rom 11:4-5, 7-8, 11-12, 15-18, 29 KJV


The Lord will complete that which He began with Israel. We would be wise to take note of His purposes and say, "Amen!" and offer ourselves to Him anew.
I agree with these verses wholeheartedly, as do many others on this forum.

God promised Abraham that his seed will be as numerous as the "stars in heaven, and the sand on the seashore." Now we know this cannot be taken literally since I have heard there are almost a trillion stars. God has distinguished two types of descendents here. One heavenly and the other earthly. One is the church of the Firstborn, and the other is Israel.

This is a clue to help us understand the verses on Israel.
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Old 09-25-2014, 09:02 AM   #66
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But that is not the kind of experience I was talking about. I was talking about experience in terms of a feeling. If you feel it then it must be true. If you feel good about it, then it is OK. Didn't you get enough of that kind of manipulation of thought through feelings in the LRC? Get stirred-up positively at the time that something actually nonsensical is being taught and you are likely to swallow it hook, line, and sinker because you felt good about it.
You misunderstand again. Here's the kind of experience I'm talking about...

"Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength." - Neh 8:10 KJV

"Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." - Psa 16:11 KJV

May you have His joy in all its fulness!
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:05 AM   #67
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You misunderstand again. Here's the kind of experience I'm talking about...

"Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength." - Neh 8:10 KJV

"Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." - Psa 16:11 KJV

May you have His joy in all its fulness!
And what exactly is your experience of this? Especially the Nehemiah reference? Where he made a specific reference to the people upon the completion of the building of the walls, and upon the reading of the law? Has this been found to be a permanently established blessing? And how exactly do you come to this conclusion?

I agree that there is a joy in the Lord that is real and substantial. It stands in the face of adversity. It is solid in personal poverty and misery. It may never be known in terms of "pleasures." But it is real. Those who seek after God will find Him. Those who seek after experience, pleasure, and joy will find something.

The law under which we all live is to be poor in spirit, to seek after righteousness (hunger and thirst for it), to believe and obey. The result of that is a people of all races and gender that exhibit the image of God.

As is common with these unique ministries, there is an emotional call for really spiritual-sounding things. And a lot of quoting of scripture. But not a lot of explanation as to what the quoting is about our how the lofty sounding words align with the meaning of scripture.

You complain about the "Greek mind" and its seeking of knowledge. But without some knowledge, it is easy to be following after nonsense. You have to know what it is you are seeking. And what it is you are reading and repeating. This verse in Nehemiah, no matter how important to the people at the time, is not made relevant to today's experience by mere quoting. You have to have a reason to assert that it is relevant and you have not. As I suppose your teachers have not. They just say it is so. That is too obvious because their teaching comes through in your words.

You may not like my words. But I think that the scripture actually commands currently in the way that I speak, not just that it ever said something that might be like what I think. And I think that this "honor the Jews" is just another edict put upon the Gentiles by the Judaizers that tormented the Gentile churches in the first century. Yet another external edict of ritual and deference to the Jewishness of the roots of the gospel.

They threw it off once (with the blessing of the very Jewish leadership). We are not about to let it back in. No matter how lofty the rhetoric by which it is brought. It is a stealing of the freedom in Christ. It is an affront to the gospel that makes all equal and calls us to love everyone.

I do not despise you or even the ones who teach you. But I do despise the teaching that they have polluted your mind with. I pray that you can be freed of such a system of error.
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Old 09-25-2014, 10:26 AM   #68
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I pray that you can be freed of such a system of error.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Recently I discussed these matters with my orthodox Jewish friend, a real Jew. He dismisses Paul, even now, after leaving that Jewish cult. He called reading Paul's letters reading somebody else's mail.

Talk about taking scripture in context. My "real Jewish" friend has a point. Paul, in this case, was writing to Christians in Rome, not to us. It was later that we turned his letters into scripture, making them more than Paul prolly intended.
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Old 09-25-2014, 11:12 AM   #69
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You may not like my words. But I think that the scripture actually commands currently in the way that I speak, not just that it ever said something that might be like what I think. And I think that this "honor the Jews" is just another edict put upon the Gentiles by the Judaizers that tormented the Gentile churches in the first century. Yet another external edict of ritual and deference to the Jewishness of the roots of the gospel.
The early church had to deal with the teaching. Paul says that when our love is preferential, then division is brought into the body of Christ. (I Cor 12.25)
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Old 09-25-2014, 11:28 AM   #70
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This may more correctly belong under an older thread on inerrancy, but it is so fitting here (and may even be personally instructive for me).

I read these excerpts at lunch today in someone's blog:

Quote:
I have a number of issues with arguments beginning “The Bible clearly says…”.

First, it is not borne out by two thousand years of history. If the Bible clearly said anything much at all, surely the world would not now have something like forty thousand Christian denominations, many of which claim to have the correct interpretation of scripture. Similarly, if the Bible was anything like as clear as this statement claims, there would have been no need for the academic study of theology and the accompanying theological debate that has persisted through twenty centuries and shows little sign of abating even today. This alone ought to be enough to kick “The Bible clearly says . . .” into touch as a credible argument for anything.

. . . .


So when, in defense of your favorite theological hobby horse, you exclaim “But the Bible clearly says…!”, what you’re really saying is “But my interpretation of the Bible clearly says…!”. To put it another way, it would be better to say, “For someone with my specific and exact personal, socio-economic, political, emotional and religious history, and with the exact same personality type, memories and value system as me, the Bible clearly says…”

By now you hopefully realize that the only person who ticks all those boxes is you. Your interpretation of the Bible is unique to you. It may coincide with the interpretation of lesser or greater numbers of other people, but ultimately it’s yours, shaped by your own unique set of formative influences.

It follows from all this – and my experience tends to bear this out – that people who routinely base their arguments on what the Bible “clearly” says often feel that they have a direct line to the Holy Spirit and have been given the one and only valid interpretation of Holy Scripture. To which my answer is, what about all the other good and holy men and women down the centuries – many of whom have studied, meditated and sacrificed much more than you or I in their quest to know God and understand the Bible – who have “received” an inspired interpretation that differs from yours?
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Old 09-25-2014, 11:40 AM   #71
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And what exactly is your experience of this? Especially the Nehemiah reference? Where he made a specific reference to the people upon the completion of the building of the walls, and upon the reading of the law? Has this been found to be a permanently established blessing? And how exactly do you come to this conclusion?

I agree that there is a joy in the Lord that is real and substantial. It stands in the face of adversity. It is solid in personal poverty and misery. It may never be known in terms of "pleasures." But it is real. Those who seek after God will find Him. Those who seek after experience, pleasure, and joy will find something.

The law under which we all live is to be poor in spirit, to seek after righteousness (hunger and thirst for it), to believe and obey. The result of that is a people of all races and gender that exhibit the image of God.

As is common with these unique ministries, there is an emotional call for really spiritual-sounding things. And a lot of quoting of scripture. But not a lot of explanation as to what the quoting is about our how the lofty sounding words align with the meaning of scripture.

You complain about the "Greek mind" and its seeking of knowledge. But without some knowledge, it is easy to be following after nonsense. You have to know what it is you are seeking. And what it is you are reading and repeating. This verse in Nehemiah, no matter how important to the people at the time, is not made relevant to today's experience by mere quoting. You have to have a reason to assert that it is relevant and you have not. As I suppose your teachers have not. They just say it is so. That is too obvious because their teaching comes through in your words.

You may not like my words. But I think that the scripture actually commands currently in the way that I speak, not just that it ever said something that might be like what I think. And I think that this "honor the Jews" is just another edict put upon the Gentiles by the Judaizers that tormented the Gentile churches in the first century. Yet another external edict of ritual and deference to the Jewishness of the roots of the gospel.

They threw it off once (with the blessing of the very Jewish leadership). We are not about to let it back in. No matter how lofty the rhetoric by which it is brought. It is a stealing of the freedom in Christ. It is an affront to the gospel that makes all equal and calls us to love everyone.

I do not despise you or even the ones who teach you. But I do despise the teaching that they have polluted your mind with. I pray that you can be freed of such a system of error.
If we don't have "what the Bible clearly says" we have only men's opinions. But people who hate God's law find that most desirable.

You and others here appear to be on the brink of serious anti-semetism. It's no wonder you hate the law and accuse anyone who appreciates it of being a "Judaizer". You forget: the original church was Jewish. Jesus and His disciples never dropped the proper Jewish practices. They only steered clear of the Judaizers and exposed their legalistic thinking and condemned it. But your refusal to acknowledge the difference between Biblical love of law and Judaistic legalism shows clearly your lack of love for God and those whom He's died for.

You're quite confused on too many issues to note. But I pray God's blessing and mercy on you!
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Old 09-25-2014, 11:40 AM   #72
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Paul, in this case, was writing to Christians in Rome, not to us. It was later that we turned his letters into scripture, making them more than Paul prolly intended.
Actually most (all?) of Paul's epistles were copied and widely distributed throughout much of the populated world, and were indeed considered scripture. Paul even made it clear that he was completing, finishing or fulfilling the Word of God.
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of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, - Col 1:25
The Greek word used here:
πληρόω plēroō is actually the same word used throughout the New Testament, and especially in the Gospels, and usually rendered "fulfilled" in a special sense of fulling a biblical prophesy. For example:

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: Matt 1:22
so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled Matt 4:14
Day after day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But let the Scriptures be fulfilled Mark 14:49

The earliest Church fathers (only a generation or two after the writing of Paul's epistles) almost all agree that Paul's writings (the ones that eventually became part of the NT canon) were/are to be considered scripture.

You might want to think about getting your views concerning the New Testament from someone else besides an orthodox Jew.
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Old 09-25-2014, 04:02 PM   #73
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You and others here appear to be on the brink of serious anti-semetism.
Anti-Semitism? Where is the hidden camera? You know, the one that is supposed to get my reaction to such a seriously ridiculous statement.

Where and by whom?

For not providing extra love and attention?

If that is what is required to avoid being labeled Anti-Semitic, then Jesus' command to love all others the same as you love yourself will only result in hatred (according to your standard for avoiding Anti-Semitism). Why? Because it is not enough.

OK. So we need to rewrite the scripture? Love the Lord your God with all your heart . . . and your neighbor as yourself, unless they are Jewish in which case you are required to love them more than yourself.

Admit it. When you put it that way, it should become more evident that your teacher is an idiot.

I will admit that none of us love everyone the way we are supposed to. But I can find no special edict for having that failure be with respect to any particular group. It is just the general failure that it is. Once we bring everyone up to the status of loved "as yourself," the command appears to have been met.

But your teachers would add a burden that was not written there. They would add a special requirement related to the Jews. And they (or at least you) will make failure to comply subject to the penalty of becoming an Anti-Semite. All for not loving them more than you love yourself.

Time to stop pushing this nonsense here. This is not the open forum for every novel, radical teaching that comes along. If loving your neighbor as yourself leaves us as Anti-Semites, then your definition of the word "anti" is not on Webster's list.
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Old 09-25-2014, 08:11 PM   #74
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You might want to think about getting your views concerning the New Testament from someone else besides an orthodox Jew.
But bro UntoHim, if you knew him you would know that he's more than qualified. We, and his wife, an old friend since the c. in Detroit days, were just talking, and bouncing ideas and info around, having a good time.

But still UntoHim, it's clear in this example that Paul was writing to Roman Christians, not to Corinthians, for example.

And certainly not to me today. Paul couldn't write to us and our modern life today. Even when he wrote "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. . ." he couldn't have imagined this modern scientific age.

In fact, today's world would actually fall into the category of "eye hath not seen ... neither have entered into the heart."

We're talking the difference between the iron age and the scientific/technology/information age ; from high levels of believing in superstition and mythology, to low, or much lower, levels of believing in superstition and mythology ; from high levels of illiteracy, to low levels of illiteracy.

Upon analysis, in fact, the difference between the two ages are impossible to quantify.

But yes, there are spiritual truths that are universal and prolly eternal, that can speak to us today.
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Old 09-26-2014, 05:00 AM   #75
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If we don't have "what the Bible clearly says" we have only men's opinions. But people who hate God's law find that most desirable.

You and others here appear to be on the brink of serious anti-semetism. It's no wonder you hate the law and accuse anyone who appreciates it of being a "Judaizer". You forget: the original church was Jewish. Jesus and His disciples never dropped the proper Jewish practices. They only steered clear of the Judaizers and exposed their legalistic thinking and condemned it. But your refusal to acknowledge the difference between Biblical love of law and Judaistic legalism shows clearly your lack of love for God and those whom He's died for.
I think that is an interesting quote: hating God's law. Today I find myself appreciating God's law more and more. OBW and I have both written here about obedience: it's a very NT thing, not merely in the OT under "law". But let me present another perspective: Psalm 119 says, "O how I love Your law... I meditate on it day and night" (v97). My sense is that only Jesus the Nazarene truly fulfilled this statement. You, Dancing, don't love God's law. Otherwise you wouldn't be a sinner in need of redemption. Same with the rest of us. If we truly fulfilled that verse we'd be Christ, but we're not.

So I see a couple of errors here; one is the error Witness Lee committed. As a true follower of Martin Luther, WL stressed grace: "Salvation is of grace, by faith. Not of works, lest any should boast." Etc. So WL disparaged these words of the psalmist. The other possible error is that you, a sinner, try to inhabit them and make them yours. You cannot. You are a failure, as am I, and and the rest of us redeemed and regenerated sinners.

No, our victory, our faith is to "see Jesus" (Heb 2:9). Jesus was the One who fulfilled Psalm 119:97. And yes, we are to follow Him, and obey Him. Paul said, "imitate me as I imitate Christ". And Christ was indeed a Jew. But the higher law (as I see it) is to obey God, and love one another, and not to take on Jewish cultural trappings. Ultimately, Jesus' Jewishness was incidental to the story, except to highlight His obedience to the Father.

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Very doctrinal. Christ is a Jew. He came as a Jew and He returns as a Jew to rule from Jerusalem. How can you honor Christ without honoring His Jewishness?

Your doctrine is too abstract, impractical. God's not that way. He is very very practical and simple. Just read His Word and believe it. Don't assign it to some past age. He is timeless as is His Word.

Originally Posted by OBW
"... But your version of the grafting of the Gentiles in is the immediate acceptance of Gentiles into the Jewish religion."


No, not religion, culture. Their culture was designed and built by God. We can read ALL about it in the Old Covenant scriptures. There’s SO MUCH to learn from it.

And there’s nothing that says we have to become Jewish. I wish everyone harping on this would please read what I’m writing. I just see harping. I don’t see evidence of much registration of reading what I’ve written.
Re: "their culture was designed and built by God": partly true. Some of Jewish culture was merely fallen humans responding to God. Not the same thing as God's original plan. Yes, Jesus was a Jew, Peter was an observant Jew, Paul, on trial for his life, repeatedly identified himself as a "Pharisee of Pharisees". Likewise, I myself am a liberal Protestant, of liberal Protestants.

But I bet Paul would also tell you that his Jewish culture was now to him as "dung", as "offal", or "refuse", or some such. It simply no longer matters. As well, I realize that my liberal Protestant upbringing, although arranged and ordained by God, is now passé, the stuff of kindergarteners playing with toys. God may allow it for a time, but eventually He wants us to move on. We are no longer children.

You are presenting Jewish culture through the proverbial front door. Witness Lee tried to sneak Chinese culture in through the back door. I respect all culture but I don't see any reason to be interested in either. If we elevate culture as divinely mandated, it becomes a trap and a snare. I have my own liberal WASP Protestant culture, and more and more I see it as something old, as dross to be burned away and discarded. It's time to move on.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:19 AM   #76
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Psalm 119 says, "O how I love Your law... I meditate on it day and night" (v97). My sense is that only Jesus the Nazarene truly fulfilled this statement. You, Dancing, don't love God's law. Otherwise you wouldn't be a sinner in need of redemption. Same with the rest of us. If we truly fulfilled that verse we'd be Christ, but we're not.

...WL disparaged these words of the psalmist. The other possible error is that... a sinner tries to inhabit them...

No, [the Christian] is to "see Jesus" (Heb 2:9). Jesus was the One who fulfilled Psalm 119:97.
Let me put it differently: who is the "I" seen in the phrase "O how I love Your law"? WL said it was merely the "fallen" and "natural" poet Asaph, or Heman, or David, unsuccessfully trying to be right before God. Dancing says it is herself. I see Jesus.

Jesus came to do the Father's will. We came to fail, repent, and believe into Jesus Christ.

When the disciples wanted to do good works and also be pleasing to the Father, Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you may believe into the One whom God has sent." (Jo 6:29)

If, when we read Psalm 19, and Psalm 119, and other words extolling God's law, and we sit Mary-like at the feet of Jesus, gazing unyieldingly at Him, and resisting temptations, Martha-like, to "rise and serve", we will see works beyond our dreams. We will see God's delight in His Son. We will indeed behold the desires of our hearts. It is the One whom God has sent. It is only in this abiding that there is any real going forth. "I set you, that you would go forth". (Jo 15:16)
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:37 AM   #77
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Default Another thought regarding the law

Another thought regarding the law: what removed, for me, the concept of "law" from templates of Jewish history and culture was the word given by a heavenly messenger, Gabriel, who told both Zechariah and Mary that once God speaks, that word is going to take place, and be realized. (Luke 1:20, 37). No word from God ever fails.

"Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens" Psa 119:89

There is a law, referenced by Gabriel, that both supersedes Jewish law and encapsulates it, but is not bound within it. This word that stands firm in the heavens has come to earth to be somewhat presented in the Mosaic law, as a shadow and type of the heavenly reality. I believe this "somewhat presented" is what led Jesus to say, "You see that it is written.... but I say to you..." six times in Matt 5:21-48. This is the heavenly law that led Jesus to lay down His life for His friends. This heavenly law is indeed suggested within the Mosaic strictures and the deuteronomic commentaries, but it is arguably only truly realized on earth in the person of Jesus Christ, the incarnated Word Himself. Jesus repeatedly said, "These things were written concerning Me"; they weren't written concerning Aron or Dancing or Asaph.

Disclaimer: all the above are current thoughts of a sojourner passing along the way, and are neither more nor less valid than anyone else's. Ultimately I'll be judged by my acts, not speeches or essays. But I do testify that I've seen Jesus, and cannot turn away. I don't want to turn away; where else to go, now that we've seen God's Beloved Son? When we read Psalm 119, we're now free to hear our Shepherd's voice. These are truly the "words of Christ" as Paul put so well it in Colossians 3:16, and now they are starting to dwell in me richly, as he repeatedly exhorted to his readers.

Hallelujah.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:59 AM   #78
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Let me put it differently: who is the "I" of "O how I love Your law"? WL said it was the fallen poet Asaph, or Heman, or David, trying to be right before God, and failing. Dancing sees herself. I see Jesus.

Jesus came to do the Father's will. We came to fail, repent, and believe into Jesus Christ.

When the disciples wanted to do good works and also be pleasing to the Father, Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you may believe into the One whom God has sent." (Jo 6:29)

If, when we read Psalm 19, and Psalm 119, and other words extolling God's law, and we sit Mary-like at the feet of Jesus, gazing unyieldingly at Him, and resisting temptations, Martha-like, to "rise and serve", we will see works beyond our dreams. We will see God's delight in His Son. We will indeed behold the desires of our hearts. It is the One whom God has sent. It is only in this abiding that there is any real going forth. "I set you, that you would go forth". (Jo 15:16)


I can't keep the law of dos and don'ts. But I can 'Keep' God's Word. For Jesus is the WORD of God Who became flesh, and through His Spirit lives in me, in us. So because I love HIM, I can "KEEP" Him Dear and near to me. When I fall flat on face, His Spirit gives me the strength and humbleness to repent and thus reconnect to Him.

When I have struggled releasing an 'offense', I ask the Lord to create in me a Clean heart, to forgive those who who hurt me, to have mercy on them as He had mercy on me, to forgive them as He forgave me. I always think "Who am I who deserved God's forgiveness and God's Mercy?? LORD ! If YOU forgave me and had mercy me, then forgive _____ and Have mercy on them as You forgave me and had mercy on me."

That is Father YVHV's WORD AND GOD'S LOVE. GOD IS LOVE.

showers of Blessings upon everyone.

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Old 09-26-2014, 08:08 AM   #79
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I can't keep the law of dos and don'ts. But I can 'Keep' God's Word. For Jesus is the WORD of God Who became flesh, and through His Spirit lives in me, in us. So because I love HIM, I can "KEEP" Him Dear and near to me. When I fall flat, His Spirit gives me the strength and humbleness to repent and thus reconnect...
You got it sistah. And you can see Jesus the Obedient Son displayed there, in those "words of Christ", in marvelous and encouraging detail. Carry on.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:54 AM   #80
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Being a Christian is about following Jesus of Nazareth not Jesus plus something else.
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Old 09-26-2014, 01:03 PM   #81
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. . . .

That is a good song. I've sung it recently. But songs are not the source of theology. They may contain good theology. But sometimes they don't. It is better to get your theology from somewhere else, just in case the song is not quite theologically sound.
Reminds me of a song from back in my salad days....

In the midst of seven lampstands, now the Son of Man we see;
Eyes ablaze and feet a’burning, He’s for God’s recovery.
God’s intention He’s accomplishing—a corporate entity;
Yes, mingling is the way.

Now, where does it say, or even suggest, that "He's for God's recovery"? Only in our dreams, and promoted in Uncle Witness' story time. But the scriptures in Revelations 1-3 do not actually point to "He's for God's recovery".

But how we bawled it forth like hungry calves! As if volume could make it so. And arm-waving - as if our arm-thrusts could conjure forth reality itself.
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:40 AM   #82
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If we don't have "what the Bible clearly says" we have only men's opinions. But people who hate God's law find that most desirable.

You and others here appear to be on the brink of serious anti-semetism. It's no wonder you hate the law and accuse anyone who appreciates it of being a "Judaizer". You forget: the original church was Jewish. Jesus and His disciples never dropped the proper Jewish practices. They only steered clear of the Judaizers and exposed their legalistic thinking and condemned it. But your refusal to acknowledge the difference between Biblical love of law and Judaistic legalism shows clearly your lack of love for God and those whom He's died for.

You're quite confused on too many issues to note. But I pray God's blessing and mercy on you!
I know you wrote this to someone else but it is troubling to me. You may very well be correct but the question is, “what does the Bible clearly state”? This seems to be where you may have gone off on a tangent. I certainly am not “anti-Semitic” and have friends who are Jewish but I can’t agree with your proposition as to what you think the “Bible clearly states”.

Isn’t it possible that the Bible speaks to all of us in our own way to meet each of our needs and there is no one absolute way that the Bible speaks.

From a historical and not a theological point of a view Paul only wrote 7 of the 13 letters attributed to him. There is no certainty that he wrote Acts. In addition, several significant passages are not in the Bible e.g. the last 12 verses of Mark and the verses associated with the adulterous woman who was brought to Jesus where he ended up saying, “Go and sin no more.” In addition, as I am sure everyone on this forum knows: we have no original texts of the Bible, only copies of copies of copies etc with the earliest copy in about 125 CE which is a fragment of one of the letters about the size of a credit card. Most copies we have available are 200 CE+ which is 130-150 years after the originals were written. We have no evidence who actually wrote the gospels. Their ownership is pure conjecture. Most of the disciples were illiterate. Paul was a scholar but he never met Jesus.

Christians place a considerable amount of trust in the Church fathers for putting together what the Bible “clearly states” to us today. However, there are definitely errors and problems with some of the copied text (i.e. there is no original text) which every NT scholar admits to include evangelical NT scholars. NT scholars are in general agreement that 1 John 5:7-8 was added in by scribes as they copied earlier manuscripts because it appears they wanted to promote a specific theology. Read it and you’ll know which one. Scribes doing this was not unique to this passage but it is now a part of the Bible. I guess we must assume that no matter what copy of the Bible was handed to us it is inspired even if some of it was written in a way that was changed over the years by scribes. Again, as I stated originally this is all “historical” and not theological because theological (not historical) NT scholars often gloss over the discrepancies.

Again, I ask, what does the Bible “clearly state” and by “whom”? If it was so clear why do we have so many differences of opinion, even among us? Christians everywhere have difficulty agreeing on various doctrines. We write off problematic doctrine as “a mystery” which we will never understand. I am not talking about non-fundamental doctrine like modalism but basic doctrine which we are all familiar.

Christianity came into being not entirely because of the death and resurrection of Christ but also because of the visons that followed whether it was the vision to Paul in 1 Cor. 15:8, the five hundred in the mountain in Galilee (Matt 28 and Mark 16), his apostles (Mark 16 and Luke 24), Mary Magdalene, two on the road to Emmaus, Peter, seven on the sea of Galilee (John 21:1-25) etc. However, visions are the least reliable source of information. How many sightings of Mary, the Mother of God have you heard about in the last few years? In addition, if it wasn’t for Constantine we’ll never know its outcome. He placed Christianity on the map.

I am not sour on Christianity, I am sour on extremism which was clearly advocated in the LC. Ever since the moral majority came into being in the 80s American Christianity has been polluted by politics. My cousin is into this Messiah Israeli language you purport (as well as the Tea Party) and I just don’t get it. Her brother is into the readings of the mythical writings of Enoch because they are quoted in 2 Peter, Jude and Revelation. They are both very bright—she has her own business and he is an airline pilot. I had brought their parents into the LC and they were raised with that influence in their lives. How did this happen that they ended up on the deep end? We’re back at the same spot we were in when we were in the LC, e.g. you indicate to others that “if you don’t believe the way I do then I you are not reading your Bible” or you accuse others of “being on the brink of severe anti-Semitism”. How did you get that way? Can you give me some background?

Please don’t pray for God’s blessing or mercy for me!!! I am not sure where you are coming from because I have the feeling those are just words to make you sound more religious than you may be. I agree we need to be spiritual in our relationships to Christ but unless there is an outcome (i.e. deeds) I am not sure of the reality of the experience. How many “experiences” did we have pray-reading, calling out “Oh Lord Jesus” 100+ times which Ron Kangas asked us to do etc. back in the day when I knew him? We were true believers and you sound like a true believer again only on a different topic. BTW---I don’t need your “law” because it appears to be “your” law unrelated to other Christian folk.

Anyway, I guess I wrote this because I don't understand how my cousin and others get this way. Just curious. Take care.

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Old 09-30-2014, 02:19 AM   #83
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There is no certainty that he wrote Acts.

In my previous submission and while it is a minor point in what I wrote, for clarification, I meant to say that there is no certainty that Luke wrote Acts.
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Old 09-30-2014, 06:15 AM   #84
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In my previous submission and while it is a minor point in what I wrote, for clarification, I meant to say that there is no certainty that Luke wrote Acts.
I thought to correct you but let it go cuz yer a newbie. Don't let happen again.

So since this thread is "What HE says!," who forged 6 of Paul's letters?

Considering only 10% were literate back then, it had to be some hefty upper-crusters, some mastercraftmen, to mimic Paul well enough to get into the canon.
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Old 09-30-2014, 07:33 AM   #85
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Sorry Harold, we're not going there, not on this thread. The New Testament canon of 27 books was already in common use and accepted as scripture very early on in the history of the church. Furthermore, we are not going to re-litigate the authorship of any of any of these 27 books. As far as I know neither Nee nor Lee disputed the authenticity of the accepted NT canon, so this is really not an issue to get into on our forum.
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Old 09-30-2014, 08:26 AM   #86
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Sorry Harold, we're not going there, not on this thread. The New Testament canon of 27 books was already in common use and accepted as scripture very early on in the history of the church. Furthermore, we are not going to re-litigate the authorship of any of any of these 27 books. As far as I know neither Nee nor Lee disputed the authenticity of the accepted NT canon, so this is really not an issue to get into on our forum.
I thought awareness was stepping out to defend the accepted authorship of Paul's epistles.

Perhaps you "pulled the trigger" too quickly.
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:42 AM   #87
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I thought awareness was stepping out to defend the accepted authorship of Paul's epistles.

Perhaps you "pulled the trigger" too quickly.
You are right bro Ohio. UntoHim just likes to pick on me.

But he's wrong about at least Lee. Lee tossed out James, and like Thomas Jefferson with the Bible, cut out portions of the Psalms.

I'm surprised he(Lee) didn't cut out the books of Timothy & Titus, that some Bible scholars question the authorship of, calling them forgeries of some proto-orthodox, trying to garner support for a church hierarchy.

Maybe that's the only reason Lee didn't toss them out too. They support deputy authority and the MOTA.
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Old 09-30-2014, 10:48 AM   #88
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Harold, what was Ohio right about? You crack me up dude!

No Lee did not actually toss out James or any of the Psalms, he just grossly misinterpreted them, along with his misinterpretation of quite a bit of the Bible.
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Old 09-30-2014, 01:03 PM   #89
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Harold, what was Ohio right about?
I had Dave on the ropes. I asked him an unanswerable question. None of the Bible scholars of any sort, even the hardcore Paul debunkers, could ever answer who could have possibly written the 6 books under question.

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You crack me up dude!
And you me. 'specially since I discovered you're a cage boxer.

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No Lee did not actually toss out James or any of the Psalms
Got it. 27 books ... hear that Dave?
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Old 09-30-2014, 02:55 PM   #90
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I saw the video of the first Psalm tape and maybe not many more. After reading the first Psalm, WL sort of strangely screwed up his mouth and said "Does this sound like God's economy?" And he went on to criticize David for being so much for the Law. His notes in his bible also verify this as well as several other Psalms. Anybody who ever heard him much knew he took issue with any love for the OT law.

He began a speaking in Irving once by saying that Martin Luther said that the book of James should be burned. He sort of said he didn't agree but to quote that in context with bad mouthing James, several Psalms, and more, he is tad amount to agreeing with Luther. It was very evident that Lee was much more comfortable with Paul than Christ. Christ had some very strong speaking about the Law. Maybe that's why the heart of the divine revelation is from Paul and not Christ.

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Old 09-30-2014, 03:20 PM   #91
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I saw the video of the first Psalm tape and maybe not many more. After reading the first Psalm, WL sort of strangely screwed up his mouth and said "Does this sound like God's economy?" And he went on to criticize David for being so much for the Law. His notes in his bible also verify this as well as several other Psalms. Anybody who ever heard him much knew he took issue with any love for the OT law.

He began a speaking in Irving once by saying that Martin Luther said that the book of James should be burned. He sort of said he didn't agree but to quote that in context with bad mouthing James, several Psalms, and more, he is tad amount to agreeing with Luther. It was very evident that Lee was much more comfortable with Paul than Christ. Christ had some very strong speaking about the Law. Maybe that's why the heart of the divine revelation is from Paul and not Christ.

lisbon
That's interesting, Paul also said he loved the law, though he also acknowledged his inability to keep it according to his fallen nature as did the OT prophets such as Isaiah.

Romans 7:22 (NLT)
I love God’s law with all my heart.

The NT repeats the OT, including the principles that seem to go against one another with uncomfortable tension. It seems like the MOTA was not aware of this, but we can't blame God for that. Jesus never said he would send the MOTA to us to guide us to the truth, but the Holy Spirit who does a much better job apparently (John 16:13).
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Old 10-01-2014, 01:44 AM   #92
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I had Dave on the ropes. I asked him an unanswerable question.

Got it. 27 books ... hear that Dave?
I find it somewhat confusing that this thread is titled, “…what He says” and individuals can ramble on about Israeli Messianic law and other related material but WN or WL never taught a whisper about that stuff. Yet, when awareness raises concerns about different books of the Bible the response is no…WL nor WN never threw out any of those books so we can’t talk about it on this thread. What does WL or WN have to do with any of this since they never talked about Israeli law in the way it is being presented here. Are they the final arbitrators about what is stated because I thought this forum was about people who were former or maybe current WL or WN followers who have a different frame of thinking. Part of that thinking is what helped us get out from under the influence of WL or WN and it doesn’t matter to me if it is Israeli law or finding out that part of the NT is possibly not in reliable manuscripts or not written by who we thought wrote various NT letters based on historical manuscripts.

What awareness was relating to is “…what He says” because unless we understand what He really said we can never get to what He says. When you read the works of NT scholars such as John Mill, Bruce Metzger, Karl Lachman, Tischendorf (who discovered Codex Sinaiticus), Westcott, Hort and many other modern scholars you realize that maybe we need to get a dose of reality. For example, I would never use 1 John 5:7-8 because it is not in any reliable text manuscripts, it was copied into the NT by scribes trying to support a particular doctrine. This is well known by reliable modern NT scholars of every almost every persuasion so I am not just spouting off some off the wall idea.

What Greek/Latin manuscript did WL use to develop the Recovery version of the NT? Do we know? From what Nigel stated WL had a limited use of Greek and used outdated reference sources. Wow…and intelligent people close to WL in the LC bought into this knowing full well that he wasn’t writing the NT from reliable Greek manuscripts. And we listened to these people and we believed these people and they were under this cloud of the “apostle WL”. I guess we just want to perpetuate this cloud on this forum because apparently we don’t want to hear anything about reliable sources even though we find out that WL’s sources for writing his NT were unreliable. How long are we going to perpetuate this cloud? Just as we know that the Recovery Version is not reliable, there are also problems with various texts and letters in the NT quoted by WL in conferences (e.g. Hebrews--I was there) because many of them were written under their own cloud of deceit and misinformation.

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Old 10-01-2014, 08:44 AM   #93
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Hi Dave:

I find nothing earth shattering about 1 John 5:7-8 or any other textual variation that would challenge a significant doctrine of the Christian faith. Can you quote one textual variation that actually makes a difference? Most of the variations between manuscripts are things like spelling mistakes, inverted phrases and other types of copyist errors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual..._New_Testament

http://www.str.org/articles/is-the-n...e#.VCwejCldUQY

"Early in the history of the Church Greek documents, including the Scriptures, were translated into Latin. By the 3rd and 4th Centuries the New Testament was translated into Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Georgian, etc. These texts helped missionaries reach new cultures in their own language as the Gospel spread and the Church grew.[15] Translations of the Greek manuscripts (called "versions") help modern-day textual critics answer questions about the underlying Greek manuscripts.

In addition, there are ancient extra-biblical sources--characteristically catechisms, lectionaries, and quotes from the church fathers--that record the Scriptures. Paul Barnett says that the "Scriptures...gave rise to an immense output of early Christian literature which quoted them at length and, in effect, preserved them."[16] Metzger notes the amazing fact that "if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, [the patristic quotations] would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament."[17]

The Verdict

What can we conclude from this evidence? New Testament specialist Daniel Wallace notes that although there are about 300,000 individual variations of the text of the New Testament, this number is very misleading. Most of the differences are completely inconsequential--spelling errors, inverted phrases and the like. A side by side comparison between the two main text families (the Majority Text and the modern critical text) shows agreement a full 98% of the time.[18]

Of the remaining differences, virtually all yield to vigorous textual criticism. This means that our New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. In the entire text of 20,000 lines, only 40 lines are in doubt (about 400 words), and none affects any significant doctrine.[19]

Greek scholar D.A. Carson sums up this way: "The purity of text is of such a substantial nature that nothing we believe to be true, and nothing we are commanded to do, is in any way jeopardized by the variants."[20]

This issue is no longer contested by non-Christian scholars, and for good reason. Simply put, if we reject the authenticity of the New Testament on textual grounds we'd have to reject every ancient work of antiquity and declare null and void every piece of historical information from written sources prior to the beginning of the second millennium A.D.

Has the New Testament been altered? Critical, academic analysis says it has not"
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:26 AM   #94
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I find nothing earth shattering about 1 John 5:7-8 or any other textual variation that would challenge a significant doctrine of the Christian faith.
What makes the corruption in 1 John 5:7-8 particularly egregious is the claim that God is three.

No where else in scripture is this confirmed.
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Old 10-01-2014, 09:54 AM   #95
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Basically a moot point. All modern versions do not include the disputed text. As with most of the so called "textual controversies" it's much ado about nothing.

Nevertheless, bearbear's salient point should be well taken by all....none of these textual controversies involves any thing or matter that has any significant effect on any of the core of the Christian faith.
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Old 10-01-2014, 11:14 AM   #96
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What makes the corruption in 1 John 5:7-8 particularly egregious is the claim that God is three.
No where else in scripture is this confirmed.
So you're a Unitarian? I think our new friend Dave is a Unitarian, you guys should get along just fine.

So God is one? ONE WHAT? And when the Lord Jesus told us to pray "Our Father who is in heaven" He was just kinda joking with us? Probably a subject for another thread.
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Old 10-01-2014, 12:45 PM   #97
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So you're a Unitarian? I think our new friend Dave is a Unitarian, you guys should get along just fine.

So God is one? ONE WHAT? And when the Lord Jesus told us to pray "Our Father who is in heaven" He was just kinda joking with us? Probably a subject for another thread.
C'mon UntoHim ... You're better than that!!

My Greek teaching was received from no other than the honorable Doctor Philip Comfort. How about yours?

You and I get along fine. Are you then also a Unitarian?
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Old 10-01-2014, 01:34 PM   #98
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So you're a Unitarian? I think our new friend Dave is a Unitarian, you guys should get along just fine.

So God is one? ONE WHAT? And when the Lord Jesus told us to pray "Our Father who is in heaven" He was just kinda joking with us? Probably a subject for another thread. [/COLOR]
I have never shied away from stating who I am (I think I have written more detail about my journey than anyone on this entire forum) but you really don't have any idea what today's Unitarianism is about, do you? I also stated that I am a Christian and I believe that creeds should be reflected in deeds. If our religious experiences don't lead us to deeds then I wonder about the value of these experiences. But then again I have stated this several times on this forum with scriptural support. I don't believe in one God so please remove that from your understanding and I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth which I have never stated.

1 John 5:7-8 takes out the only direct statement about the Trinity but of course, you can still have the Trinity using other scriptures. My point was that this scripture is not in the Bible nor are the last 12 verses of Mark and John 8:3-11. From a theological standpoint it doesn't matter but from a historical standpoint it does. I don't think we should be as dismissive as you and bearbear seem to be about the impact of these issues upon the Christian faith.

Your goal is noble -- trying to make sure that those who leave the LC stay in the Christian fold...I like that and I can appreciate that effort but as I am sure you are well aware, it is a life journey one day at a time.

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Old 10-01-2014, 01:38 PM   #99
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I have never shied away from stating who I am (I think I have written more detail about my journey than anyone on this entire forum)
Hardly Dave ... but who's keeping track?
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Old 10-01-2014, 01:46 PM   #100
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My point was that this scripture is not in the Bible nor are the last 12 verses of Mark and John 8:3-11. From a theological standpoint it doesn't matter but from a historical standpoint it does.
This is common knowledge among those who study Textual Criticism.

The underlying problem here is that some learn these facts from a man of God, and some learn them from those who would undermine the scriptures.

Since I learned this from Phil Comfort decades ago, it only strengthened my faith. Others discover this from diverse websites, and their faith is shipwrecked. Same information, different source. Kind of like lots of stuff on our Christian walk.
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Old 10-01-2014, 01:52 PM   #101
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C'mon UntoHim ... You're better than that!!
I'm only better or worse than what I understand and believe to be what has been understood and believed by "orthodox" Christians for the better part of 1900 years - That there is ONE GOD - One Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, One Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by and through whom all things were made, who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; One Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, who was sent from and proceeds from the Father, and, along with the Father and the Son, in whose name we are baptized in, and who comes to fill us with the very nature and character of God, provide comfort and lead us into all truth.
****(This is my modern interpretation/updating of the Nicene Creed. I also draw on Ephesians 4:4 - There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.)
****

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My Greek teaching was received from no other than the honorable Doctor Philip Comfort. How about yours?
Absolutely and totally unresponsive and irrelevant to anything I posted...unless of course Dr. Phil is a Modalist or a Unitarian, which I highly doubt.

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You and I get along fine. Are you then also a Unitarian?
Yes, we do get along just fine, are you then also a Trinitarian?
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:13 PM   #102
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I'm only better or worse than what I understand and believe to be what has been understood and believed by "orthodox" Christians for the better part of 1900 years - That there is ONE GOD - One Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, One Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by and through whom all things were made, who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; One Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, who was sent from and proceeds from the Father, and, along with the Father and the Son, in whose name we are baptized in, and who comes to fill us with the very nature and character of God, provide comfort and lead us into all truth.
****(This is my modern interpretation/updating of the Nicene Creed. I also draw on Ephesians 4:4 - There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.)
****

Absolutely and totally unresponsive and irrelevant to anything I posted...unless of course Dr. Phil is a Modalist or a Unitarian, which I highly doubt.


Yes, we do get along just fine, are you then also a Trinitarian?
How in the world do I get called a Modalist or a Unitarian when I simply state that there is but one God. (I Cor 8.6, I Tim 2.5, Mal 2.10, Jam 2.19, Mark 12.32, Deut 6.4)

The Bible is my creed!

Has your forum become an inquisition of sorts?
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Old 10-01-2014, 02:32 PM   #103
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1 John 5:7-8 takes out the only direct statement about the Trinity but of course, you can still have the Trinity using other scriptures. My point was that this scripture is not in the Bible nor are [FONT=&quot]the last 12 verses of Mark and John 8:3-11. From a theological standpoint it doesn't matter but from a historical standpoint it does. I don't think we should be as [FONT=&quot]dismissive a[FONT=&quot]s you and bearbear seem to be about the [FONT=&quot]impact of the[FONT=&quot]se issues upon the Christian faith.
Could you explain how these issues legitimately challenge your faith ? To me, the awesomeness of scripture overwhelms any possibility of scripture being faked. Witness Lee may have been ignorant about the textural variations of the NT, but the LCs were also pretty silent about the other aspects of scripture that make it amazing.

Jesus fulfilled 353 prophecies related to the Messiahs' first coming exactly as the prophets predicted.

http://www.accordingtothescriptures....rophecies.html

The most crazy prophecy was when Daniel predicted that the Messiah would reveal himself 483 Hebrew calendar years or exactly 173,880 days after the second temple construction was decreed:

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/

Major prophecies concerning the regathering of Israel are also being miraculously fulfilled:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

If you take the list of names from Adam to Noah which is 10 generations and extract their Hebrew meanings, it forms a sentence which summarizes all of scripture:

1. Adam - Man
2. Seth - Appointed
3. Enosh - Mortal
4. Kenan - Sorrow
5. Mahahlalel - The blessed God
6. Jared - Shall come down
7. Enoch - Teaching
8. Methuselah - His death shall bring
9. Lamech - The despairing
10. Noah - Rest, comfort

Taken together:

1. Man appointed mortal sorrow (the fall of man).
2. The blessed God shall come down teaching (Torah given to Moses)
3. His death shall bring the despairing rest and comfort (death of Messiah and Matt 11:28-29)

I find it hard to believe that some Hebrew scribes just came up with these names randomly. I think I could go on and on, but it would blow up this thread. Maybe I should compile everything into a website or blog post ... hmm
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Old 10-01-2014, 04:50 PM   #104
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Hardly Dave ... but who's keeping track?
Okay, let me just reiterate what I already wrote on this thread (there is a lot of other things I wrote to explain my experience in the LC etc as well). Maybe you missed it. I don't think I have read other autobiographies of their personal faith and development or if so, where can I find them. I am not playing games. I hope you are not either:

I was "saved" in August 1964 and changed from the University of Minnesota to North Central Bible College (AOG), Minneapolis in Sept 1964 to study to be a Minister at age 18. I studied there for 2 years. While attending Bible College I was preaching at churches, Salvation Army, etc as well as I noted elsewhere working during the summers with Teen Challenge in downtown Detroit, an organization founded by David Wilkerson. The Vietnam War was raging and I felt that I would best be served by helping men and women in the armed services so I volunteered for the draft and spent 2 years in the Army with one of those years in Vietnam. I was able to share my faith and lead others to Jesus. When I got out of the service in the fall of 1968 I went to Santa Cruz, Calif to Bethany Bible College (AOG) to continue my studies for the ministry.

It was in early 1969 while I was passing out tracts on the Santa Cruz boardwalk with a friend from the bible college which we did every Saturday night when I met Karl Hammond on the board walk. Previously I had been introduced to WN and read everything of his I could get my hands on. WN did make me leary of what I was learning in Bible college which I felt was more superficial than what I was getting from Nee. In any case, Karl and I spoke that night and he asked me if I ever heard of "The Normal Christian Church Life" which I hadn't but certainly I was interested. It turned out Karl had published this book by WN. It was also the first time I heard of WL.

I began meeting with Karl at 6am every morning with our wives and another couple, we began the church in Santa Cruz which grew to 125 by the summer of 1971 and was made up of primarily young people. I dropped out of Bethany and started attending state universities where I preached the gospel and brought young people into the church as well as started Bible studies on campus' and brought other Christians into the local church. It was the height of my LC experience and Christian experience.

In the summer of 1971 WL asked me if I would move to Detroit in part because I had brought numerous relatives into that church which had begun there. It was also part of the migration and others from different cities also moved to Detroit. When I went to Detroit I continued my studies, all the while preaching the gospel, attending college and holding bible studies as well as visiting neighbor colleges and universities and preaching the gospel of the LC to Christians on campus'. In fact, one of the members on this forum was a Christian I met on campus while in Detroit and introduced him to the LC. I also was in contact a couple years ago with a brother who I brought to Christ and the LC while in Santa Cruz.

In Feb 1974 everyone migrated to Ft. Lauderdale and I have been in Fl ever since then. The church in ft. lauderdale was mostly in chaos it seemed to me while I was there and I don't even think there is a church there anymore. I moved to Miami in 1977 but by then I was in the process of getting out. In 1978 I decided it was time to leave despite Don O trying to talk me out of it but of course he left the LC some time later himself.

I hope I have answered your question. Yes, I was active before I became involved in the LC, during my time with the LC and afterwards as I previously mentioned. When I left the LC in 1978 I went through disappointment/catharsis just as many who were a part of the LC experienced. However, over the years I have moved on as I noted previously.

I am not sour on the "truth" and as I stated, I am a Unitarian Christian and I have been very active. My outlook is based on my experience and my knowledge. I would suggest that our experience needs to result in deeds --- which I have noted with scriptures in some detail elsewhere on this forum --- social justice. Feeding the poor and the homeless, standing up for justice etc. I just don't buy "experience" as an entity in itself without activism. We can argue over various scriptures all day or have heightened experiences at church or in prayer but if it doesn't result in deeds I wonder sometimes how real it is or what are we experiencing. This is a broken world with much that can and should be done. We each need to do our little part no matter how little and our spiritual experiences give us the stamina to do this work.
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Old 10-01-2014, 05:24 PM   #105
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I am not sour on the "truth" and as I stated, I am a Unitarian Christian and I have been very active. My outlook is based on my experience and my knowledge. I would suggest that our experience needs to result in deeds --- which I have noted with scriptures in some detail elsewhere on this forum --- social justice. Feeding the poor and the homeless, standing up for justice etc. I just don't buy "experience" as an entity in itself without activism. We can argue over various scriptures all day or have heightened experiences at church or in prayer but if it doesn't result in deeds I wonder sometimes how real it is or what are we experiencing. This is a broken world with much that can and should be done. We each need to do our little part no matter how little and our spiritual experiences give us the stamina to do this work.
Thanks Dave for this. Although I don't agree with the "Unitarian Christian" doctrinal positions, your "experience needs to result in deeds" is absolutely right on line with the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ (no matter who you believe he was, he taught what you are saying!) And yes "we each need to do our little part" for this broken world. AMEN TO THAT!
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Old 10-01-2014, 05:27 PM   #106
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Could you explain how these issues legitimately challenge your faith ?
I never said they challenged my faith. I only pointed out these issues as historical NT issues for Christians. Maybe you could add the following interesting tidbit to the website you are going to develop. In Mathew 1:1-16 it lists all of the generations of Joseph back to Abraham and it divides it up into 3 sets of 14 in verse 17 but actually the last set is only 13 generations. In any case, in Luke 3:23-38 there is also the same genealogy except that Luke starts with Adam (its backwards so start with v. 38 but still there is the genealogy) and runs through the genealogy. Everything is going great until you get to Mathew 1:6 compared to Luke 3:31 then everything changes and the lineages changes. Maybe you can research that change.

Also, in ACTS there are actually two versions one of which is 8.5% longer which is acknowledged by NT scholars including Wallace from Dallas Theo. Seminary.

Book of John chapter 21 was not in the original copies of the manuscripts. Also the Prologue vs 1-18 added after it was published.
Luke vs 1-2 ...actually should start with vs 3.
I already noted that the last 12 verses in Mark are not in the earliest manuscripts.
None of these changes challenge my faith but they are interesting to me at least. Since you seem to be on top of this maybe you would check it out. Thanks.
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Old 10-01-2014, 06:10 PM   #107
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are you then also a Trinitarian?
What verse is that?
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Old 10-01-2014, 06:31 PM   #108
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I never said they challenged my faith. I only pointed out these issues as historical NT issues for Christians. Maybe you could add the following interesting tidbit to the website you are going to develop. In Mathew 1:1-16 it lists all of the generations of Joseph back to Abraham and it divides it up into 3 sets of 14 in verse 17 but actually the last set is only 13 generations. In any case, in Luke 3:23-38 there is also the same genealogy except that Luke starts with Adam (its backwards so start with v. 38 but still there is the genealogy) and runs through the genealogy. Everything is going great until you get to Mathew 1:6 compared to Luke 3:31 then everything changes and the lineages changes. Maybe you can research that change.
There are several theories on this. One proposed is that Luke was trying to trace the geneology through Mary to highlight Jesus' human nature and Matthew through Joseph to highlight his qualifications for kingship and legitimacy as Messiah. Another theory is that Matthew was tracing the biological lineage and Luke the legal one based on Levirate marriage when a man dies with no male heirs and leaves a wife (Deuteronomy 25:5-10). In any case the Jews were very good at record keeping and if Matthew and Luke were recording two entirely contradictory genealogies of the same lineage, someone at the time would have taken notice.

Quote:
Also, in ACTS there are actually two versions one of which is 8.5% longer which is acknowledged by NT scholars including Wallace from Dallas Theo. Seminary.

Book of John chapter 21 was not in the original copies of the manuscripts. Also the Prologue vs 1-18 added after it was published.
Luke vs 1-2 ...actually should start with vs 3.
I already noted that the last 12 verses in Mark are not in the earliest manuscripts.
None of these changes challenge my faith but they are interesting to me at least. Since you seem to be on top of this maybe you would check it out. Thanks.
None of these issues would challenge my faith either. I do believe scripture serves as a signpost that ultimately leads us to Jesus. To point at the signpost and scrutinize it for having rough and worn edges isn't a good use of time to me. However if the signpost is leading to something else besides the true Jesus and leading to strange fruit such as in the case of the Quran, then that is when we should be cautious.

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Christianity came into being not entirely because of the death and resurrection of Christ but also because of the visons that followed whether it was the vision to Paul in 1 Cor. 15:8, the five hundred in the mountain in Galilee (Matt 28 and Mark 16), his apostles (Mark 16 and Luke 24), Mary Magdalene, two on the road to Emmaus, Peter, seven on the sea of Galilee (John 21:1-25) etc. However, visions are the least reliable source of information. How many sightings of Mary, the Mother of God have you heard about in the last few years? In addition, if it wasn’t for Constantine we’ll never know its outcome. He placed Christianity on the map.
Earlier you implied that the visions of the bible could not be trusted. Since a lot of the Christian faith derives from Paul's revelations, do you question the legitimacy of much of the NT, especially Paul's epistles because his conversion and many experiences was derived from visions? Asides from the Damascus incident, Paul recounts a near death experience in 2 Cor 12:2-5 and it's possible he got a lot of revelation directly from heaven while he was there.

I believe while it's true many people have visions that leads to strange things, having a vision itself is not a bad sign. The bible is full of dreams and visions not just in the NT but also throughout the OT. If you discount visions in general, you pretty much have to write off all of scripture.

Rather than telling us to dismiss all supernatural encounters, the bible gives us guidelines how to deal with things like visions, some which may be good and others bad. Paul warns us in 2 Cor 11:14 "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." Jesus taught us to test things by their fruit, and John gave the test of whether or not the spirit acknowledges Jesus(1 John 4:3). Paul tells us not to despise prophecies but to test them (1 Thes 5:20).
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Old 10-01-2014, 06:33 PM   #109
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The underlying problem here is that some learn these facts from a man of God, and some learn them from those who would undermine the scriptures.

Since I learned this from Phil Comfort decades ago, it only strengthened my faith. Others discover this from diverse websites, and their faith is shipwrecked. Same information, different source. Kind of like lots of stuff on our Christian walk.
We are all walking on the same path, some know it and others don't. While our journeys are always different we are all walking on this path of life. I'm glad that you had someone like Phil Comfort to help you along your way. I don't know if it is the "facts" you learn but the lessons learned along the way that are the most meaningful.
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Old 10-01-2014, 07:06 PM   #110
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[SIZE=2]
1 John 5:7-8 takes out the only direct statement about the Trinity but of course, you can still have the Trinity using other scriptures.
I suppose yer speakin' of Matt 28:19:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Which I think is even more direct than 1 Jn5:7-8:

7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word[Logos], and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8: And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

So I think we can all safely conclude that 1Jn5:7-8 was added into the manuscripts by a over zealous Trinitarian.

So what about Matt 28:19? Was that too modified by an over zealous trinitarian?

The only evidence of that, so far, is that when the early church fathers quote that section of Matthew (there were no markings of chapter and verse back then) they quote it as "baptize in the name." Like everywhere else it's mentioned, like in the Acts.
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Old 10-01-2014, 07:13 PM   #111
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How in the world do I get called a Modalist or a Unitarian when I simply state that there is but one God. (I Cor 8.6, I Tim 2.5, Mal 2.10, Jam 2.19, Mark 12.32, Deut 6.4)
Calm down my dear brother, I never called you either one.

You made a theological declaration:
"There is but one God". No problem! Very biblical! In fact you would get no argument from anybody within the entire spectrum of the Judeo-Christian world (that I'm aware of).

But you also made another theological declaration:
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What makes the corruption in 1 John 5:7-8 particularly egregious is the claim that God is three. No where else in scripture is this confirmed.
At some point I asked you (in regards to God being one) "One What?". This is a perfectly logical and reasonable question, and you chose to ignore it. Why did you chose to ignore this question? Is it because you don't know the answer, or is it because you don't wan't to be pinned down to any particular answer?

Feel free to ask me (in regards to God being three) "Three What?". Of course I kind of did that in my last post (with my rambling rendition of a modern/updated Nicence Creed). You see I'm not afraid of answering ether question, and the reason for this is that both questions are answered quite clearly, and wonderfully I might add, in the living and abiding Word of God. I just gave you one there in my post (Eph 4:4).


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The Bible is my creed!
Nah, you have made it quite clear in the past that you don't accept or believe any ANY creeds. The Bible is not a creed it is the Bible. Creeds are no more or no less than statements or declarations of what one believes the Bible teaches.

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Has your forum become an inquisition of sorts?
Wow, I'm just going to leave this one up here for everyone to see how unreasonable you can be at times.
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:14 PM   #112
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We are all walking on the same path, some know it and others don't. While our journeys are always different we are all walking on this path of life.
Good point Dave. There's nothing unchristian about accepting others simply on the basis of our common humanity.
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:54 PM   #113
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What makes the corruption in 1 John 5:7-8 particularly egregious is the claim that God is three.

No where else in scripture is this confirmed.
I was under the impression that Ohio was being sarcastic or joking around as we all should know there are verses like Matt 28:19 as awareness mentioned:

Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Or 2nd Cor 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Or asides from that the plethora of verses where Jesus implies his divinity such as when he declared that he was the "I AM":

John 5:58
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Or are both of you being sarcastic with each other and I'm just confused?
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Old 10-01-2014, 08:58 PM   #114
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None of these changes challenge my faith but they are interesting to me at least. Since you seem to be on top of this maybe you would check it out. Thanks.
Then you are not a fundamentalist. Because the fact that there's plenty of variations in the manuscripts, more variations in fact than words in the NT, does challenge the faith of fundamentalists. It violates their first fundamental:

The "five fundamentals":
  1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
  2. The deity of Jesus Christ
  3. Virgin birth of Jesus
  4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
  5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ to the earth.
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Old 10-02-2014, 01:12 AM   #115
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I was under the impression that Ohio was being sarcastic or joking around as we all should know there are verses like Matt 28:19 as awareness mentioned:

Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Or 2nd Cor 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Or asides from that the plethora of verses where Jesus implies his divinity such as when he declared that he was the "I AM":

John 5:58
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Or are both of you being sarcastic with each other and I'm just confused?
Now which of these verses says God is "three?"

Did anyone read what I actually wrote?
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Old 10-02-2014, 03:04 AM   #116
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I was under the impression that Ohio was being sarcastic or joking around as we all should know there are verses like Matt 28:19 as awareness mentioned:

Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Without 1 John 5: 6-8 there are no definitive statements that the three are one. In reading the NET version this statement, "the three are one" is left out. I'm impressed because not only does Dan Wallace recommend that version but he also worked on it. He doesn't leave out some other verses that should be changed (e.g. Mark last 12 verses) but anyway he leaves that out. I would agree with awareness and bearbear that Matt 28:19 appears to be quite clear although it doesn't say they are one but it certainly implies it.

Now, what about Mark 12:32 and Matt 24:36 where Jesus states, "only the Father" knows. NET version, "But as for that day and hour no one knows it--not even the angels in heaven--except the Father alone." What is interesting about the NET version with Dan Wallace's help is that it leaves out "nor the Son" which is in other versions. There is a youtube video where Dan Wallace talks about this verse i.e. Matt 24:36. In any case, the Father has kept this info to Himself so there is not a common knowledge between the Godhead, at least in this issue. That is why, in the end, a lot of this is simply "faith", faith that those who put the Bible together and came up with the fundamental doctrines are spiritually directed because if they were not then it would raise all kinds of questions. That's why I said earlier that historically/textually there may be issues but I am not addressing the theological issues which involve faith.
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Old 10-02-2014, 03:56 AM   #117
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Then you are not a fundamentalist. Because the fact that there's plenty of variations in the manuscripts, more variations in fact than words in the NT, does challenge the faith of fundamentalists. It violates their first fundamental:

The "five fundamentals":
  1. The inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture
  2. The deity of Jesus Christ
  3. Virgin birth of Jesus
  4. The substitutionary, atoning work of Christ on the cross
  5. The physical resurrection and the personal bodily return of Christ to the earth.
In regards to inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture let's look at what NT scholars have done, for example, with the NET version which Dan Wallace, Dallas Theological Seminary, in the changes in this newer version. Consider 1 John 5:6-8 which I have mentioned elsewhere, he has left out, "the three are one" among other errors in the earlier versions of the NT. That is progress. Also, since we don't have the original manuscripts we could say that the original manuscripts were inerrant and what we have is the best reflection of those inerrant manuscripts. Of course, we have scholars working on these manuscripts night and day and they are making changes as they are able to substantiate errors. This is a laborious exercise and we have untold numbers of versions of the Bible now and i am sure there are several that have made many of the proper corrections. In the end, it is all about having "faith" in all the doctrines you have listed above. Of course there are inconsistencies but we have always known that so it is nothing new.

For instance, in the Gospels compare Luke 24:4, Matthew 28:2,5,8, Mark 16:5,8 and John 20:1,11. They are all different in regards to the women at the tomb but we have always known that. In Luke it is two men in glistening apparel at the tomb, in Matthew it is an angel of the Lord who rolled back the stone and sat upon it, in Mark it is a young man covered with a white robe and in John there were two angels in white, sitting, one at the head and the one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been laid. All different accounts but they are all just different perspectives and doesn't mean there are really differences. Of course, like I said, it is a matter of faith.
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Old 10-02-2014, 04:46 AM   #118
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Earlier you implied that the visions of the bible could not be trusted. Since a lot of the Christian faith derives from Paul's revelations, do you question the legitimacy of much of the NT, especially Paul's epistles because his conversion and many experiences was derived from visions? Asides from the Damascus incident, Paul recounts a near death experience in 2 Cor 12:2-5 and it's possible he got a lot of revelation directly from heaven while he was there.

I believe while it's true many people have visions that leads to strange things, having a vision itself is not a bad sign. The bible is full of dreams and visions not just in the NT but also throughout the OT. If you discount visions in general, you pretty much have to write off all of scripture.

Rather than telling us to dismiss all supernatural encounters, the bible gives us guidelines how to deal with things like visions, some which may be good and others bad. Paul warns us in 2 Cor 11:14 "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." Jesus taught us to test things by their fruit, and John gave the test of whether or not the spirit acknowledges Jesus(1 John 4:3). Paul tells us not to despise prophecies but to test them (1 Thes 5:20).
Yes, I did say that visions were the least reliable but listed many instances where visions were reported. Surprisingly, Constantine had a vision as well, "A cross of light appeared, above the Sun with the inscription In hoc signo vinces (By this sign, conquer). Constantine and his entire army of close to 100,000 men were amazed at the sight."

That night, Eusebius reports, Constantine had a dream. In his dream, Christ appeared to him and ordered that Constantine make a “likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens” and use it as a protective in all his future battles.

So what was it that Constantine saw? Artists through the ages have attempted to depict the scene, but have done so in only the most fantastical way. The most obvious solution is that it was a particularly bright parhelion (a Sun dog or mock Sun). The specific association that Eusebius makes with the Sun might support this. These images are caused by ice particles high in the atmosphere and are relatively common. Given clear skies, they can be seen on average about twice a week, if looked for carefully. Very bright parhelia are rarer, yet should still have been known to Constantine, who would have spent far more time outdoors than we do today, and would consequently be more familiar with aerial phenomena."

In this instance 100,000 men had the same vision of the cross and Constantine used it as he took his men into battle and won over the entire Roman empire and turned it Christian. Of course, as I said, it is all a matter of faith. However, back in the day during Jesus' times visions, fantasies etc were more common than not. They believed the earth was flat. It was a different world and trying to explain everything using our terms was unknown. They used their own perspectives of their time. Studying early Christian history helps.
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:31 AM   #119
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At some point I asked you (in regards to God being one) "One What?". This is a perfectly logical and reasonable question, and you chose to ignore it. Why did you chose to ignore this question? Is it because you don't know the answer, or is it because you don't wan't to be pinned down to any particular answer?
And in another place I asked the same question in a different way.

God is one. But we, as Christians, are called to be one "as we are one." How is that possible in the sense that Lee called God One? I think that, like some of the etymological choices concerning words, we have chosen to assert that the word "one" has a particular and singular meaning when it does not. I have no ideas about Unitarianism. My understanding is that they have a rather novel view of God, along with other religions (or at least did) that puts them on the verge of being only barely Christian, if at all. That does not mean the members are not Christian, but the organization and doctrine are not consistent with orthodox Christian teaching.

But when we say God is one, is it possible that the common definition in which it is an "essence" that makes the unity out of three is actually closer to right than some of our prior declarations that God is "one person"? Because in that way, "I in them and you in me" provides the same oneness as the Godhead (at least as set out in this verse). We are never going to be "one person" other than metaphorically, such as when God noted that the people were of one mind and could do what they put themselves to, so he confused their language. Still not "one person." If God's oneness is as "one person," then we are left with a quandary over what kind of strange thing Jesus was talking about when we prayed we would be one as the Godhead is one. If they are one person, then the prayer is ridiculous and futile. And neither Jesus nor his prayers are ridiculous or futile. So the problem is with our understanding of the unity/oneness of God. And Jesus seems to have defined it for us.

And going back several years when we got into "was the father there in the Son on the cross at his death" the possibilities and answers might be more reasonable and understandable. It is an essence that is shared, not a unity of person. The Father is of the same essence, but not the same person, therefore is not actually there on the cross.

What is that essence? I don't know. One place it is declared that God is spirit. Maybe the key is there. But I don't know.
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Old 10-02-2014, 06:40 AM   #120
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We are all walking on the same path, some know it and others don't. While our journeys are always different we are all walking on this path of life. I'm glad that you had someone like Phil Comfort to help you along your way. I don't know if it is the "facts" you learn but the lessons learned along the way that are the most meaningful.
Dave, the "facts" I was referring to applied specifically to those sections of Scripture with questionable origins, i.e. Mark's ending, the Johannine comma, story of adulterous woman in John 8, etc.

I learned this from a well-respected teacher who was not discrediting the veracity of scripture nor undermining its inerrancy.
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Old 10-02-2014, 06:46 AM   #121
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Yes, I did say that visions were the least reliable but listed many instances where visions were reported. Surprisingly, Constantine had a vision as well, "A cross of light appeared, above the Sun with the inscription In hoc signo vinces (By this sign, conquer). Constantine and his entire army of close to 100,000 men were amazed at the sight."

That night, Eusebius reports, Constantine had a dream. In his dream, Christ appeared to him and ordered that Constantine make a “likeness of that sign which he had seen in the heavens” and use it as a protective in all his future battles.
Given the heavy climate of mythology and superstition that existed back then I'm surprised they didn't claim that Constantine was born of a virgin, like Alexander the great, circa 600 yrs prior.
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:02 AM   #122
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You made a theological declaration:
"There is but one God". No problem! Very biblical! In fact you would get no argument from anybody within the entire spectrum of the Judeo-Christian world (that I'm aware of). But you also made another theological declaration:

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What makes the corruption in 1 John 5:7-8 particularly egregious is the claim that God is three. No where else in scripture is this confirmed.
At some point I asked you (in regards to God being one) "One What?". This is a perfectly logical and reasonable question, and you chose to ignore it. Why did you chose to ignore this question? Is it because you don't know the answer, or is it because you don't wan't to be pinned down to any particular answer?
"One What?" One God, of course.

Who ignored that question? How can my answer "pin me down?"

And here's a smilie back at you bro.

And calm down, no one's calling you any names.


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Feel free to ask me (in regards to God being three) "Three What?". Of course I kind of did that in my last post (with my rambling rendition of a modern/updated Nicence Creed). You see I'm not afraid of answering ether question, and the reason for this is that both questions are answered quite clearly, and wonderfully I might add, in the living and abiding Word of God. I just gave you one there in my post (Eph 4:4).
"Three What?" Three nothing!

The Bible never says the word "THREE" when it comes to our God.

That's why I initially addressed the textual error in the Johannine comma. A well-meaning scribe might have added it, but John did not write it!

Great verses Ephesians 4.4-6. Thanks for them. Proves my point exactly.

One Spirit. One Lord. One God and Father. One! One! One!

This is God's math: One + One + One = One

Praise God!


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Nah, you have made it quite clear in the past that you don't accept or believe any ANY creeds. The Bible is not a creed it is the Bible. Creeds are no more or no less than statements or declarations of what one believes the Bible teaches.
I like creeds. Especially the good ones. Can't count the number of times I have recited the Apostles Creed.

I just don't elevate them above God's Word. That's fair, isn't it?


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Wow, I'm just going to leave this one up here for everyone to see how unreasonable you can be at times.
I am unreasonable?!?

Someone find me a good smilie for my dear brother UntoHim.
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:09 AM   #123
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I was under the impression that Ohio was being sarcastic or joking around as we all should know there are verses like Matt 28:19 as awareness mentioned:

Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Or 2nd Cor 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Or asides from that the plethora of verses where Jesus implies his divinity such as when he declared that he was the "I AM":

John 5:58
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Or are both of you being sarcastic with each other and I'm just confused?
No bearbear, I was not being "sarcastic or joking around."

I was just stating a fact about God is one, and that no scripture ever says God is "three."

Perhaps you have found one? And I do know that God has referred to Himself as "us" and "we."

And don't ask me to explain how I can have the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and still only have One God.
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:14 AM   #124
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And calm down, no one's calling you any names.
Me! Me! Let me call him names:

"Jane you slut." Er, ah, that doesn't fit does it?

Mea culpa ... lost my head. Forgot. Ad hominem's aren't allowed.
----
Had to edit. Jane you slut comes from a skit in the early days of Saturday Night Live ... it's a classic extreme ad hominem.
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:16 AM   #125
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Without 1 John 5: 6-8 there are no definitive statements that the three are one. In reading the NET version this statement, "the three are one" is left out. I'm impressed because not only does Dan Wallace recommend that version but he also worked on it. He doesn't leave out some other verses that should be changed (e.g. Mark last 12 verses) but anyway he leaves that out. I would agree with awareness and bearbear that Matt 28:19 appears to be quite clear although it doesn't say they are one but it certainly implies it.
I am not familiar with the NET version or Dan Wallace, but Dr. Comfort's version New Living Translation does not include the "the three are one" either.

Only those translations based on the flawed Textus Receptus include this part of the verse. No modern translation based on the best manuscripts would include this statement.
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:42 AM   #126
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I am not familiar with the NET version or Dan Wallace, but Dr. Comfort's version New Living Translation does not include the "the three are one" either.

Only those translations based on the flawed Textus Receptus include this part of the verse. No modern translation based on the best manuscripts would include this statement.
Dan Wallace is a highly respected conservative NT scholar from Dallas Theological Seminary. I picked up the NET Bible not only because he was involved but because it was cheap on the kindle and from what I read easy to navigate. In regards to Phil Comfort, since you mentioned him I picked up his book, "The Origin of the Bible: A Comprehensive Guide to the Authority and Inspiration of the Bible, the Canon, the Bible as Literary Text, Text and Manuscripts, Translations". I bought it used for $6 and thought I would take a look at it. Maybe it will give me a better understanding as to your perspective.
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Old 10-02-2014, 07:59 AM   #127
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No bearbear, I was not being "sarcastic or joking around."

I was just stating a fact about God is one, and that no scripture ever says God is "three."

Perhaps you have found one? And I do know that God has referred to himself as "us" and "we."
Genesis 1:26
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness..."

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us...

Genesis 11:7
Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.

Isaiah 6:8
And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.”

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And don't ask me to explain how I can have the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and still only have One God.
Here's my current understanding as a mere human:

The human definition of oneness (something being one physical entity) perhaps differs from what God considers to be true oneness which is spiritual oneness. For example a person may be one entity, but if he is possessed by multiple spirits and personalities, he is not even spiritually one in himself.

God is not one in the sense of being one entity, but one in purpose, essence and will. Jesus said we could be one just as He and the Father are one. Both you and I are separate people, but we can be one when we are united with the same mind, will, purpose which is made possible by the Holy Spirit who indwells us.

John 17:21
I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one--as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.
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Old 10-02-2014, 08:04 AM   #128
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Without 1 John 5: 6-8 there are no definitive statements that the three are one.
Again, ONE WHAT? This was one of the great holes in the teachings of Nee and Lee - to wit - not asking the right questions, or asking the wrong questions, or, in the case of Lee, begging the question big time. Lee would always make the claim that the traditional teaching on the Trinity "borders on tritheism". Of course this was nothing more than a grand misdirection, used in order to soften up the minds of his followers so that would swallow hook, line and sinker his unbiblical, modalistic "Processed Triune God" nonsense.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, boldly proclaimed "I and the Father are one". (John 10:30). Of course if smart aleck UntoHim was there he might very well of chimed in with "One What?"....but the learned Jews to whom Jesus was speaking to needed to make no such inquiry - they knew very well that this man was claiming to be equal with God, and they immediately "picked up stones again to stone him" (vr 31).

I was going to start to ramble about what Jesus may have meant when He said "I and the Father are one", but I ran across this article and it does a better job than I have time or patients for this morning:


Question: "What did Jesus mean when He said, ‘I and the Father are one’ (John 10:30)?"

Answer: In John 10 Jesus presents Himself as the Good Shepherd and, in a debate with the Jewish leaders, makes the claim, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). It was a bold statement—one His audience found quite audacious—and it reveals much about who Jesus is.

Five key observations can be made concerning this passage. First, Jesus claimed to be one with God in the sense of being equal to Him. Jesus did not claim to be merely a messenger or prophet of God, but of equal power with God.

Second, His audience understood that Jesus was claiming equality with God the Father. In verse 31, “The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.” Why? Blasphemy was a crime punishable by death according to the Jewish Law. When Jesus asked why they were planning to kill Him, they answered, “For blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God” (John 10:33). If Jesus had been lying or deceived, His statement would have been blasphemous. In fact, the only way His words were not blasphemy is if Jesus was telling the truth about His equality with God.

Third, Jesus referred to Himself as God’s Son and to God as His Father (John 10:36–37). He used Psalm 82:6 to show that the Messiah has the right to claim the title “Son of God.”

Fourth, Jesus claimed that that Father sent Him: “the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world” (John 10:36). In this statement, Jesus claimed preexistence in the Father’s presence. No biblical prophet had ever made such a claim before; yet Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham (John 8:58).

Fifth, Jesus only stated that the Jews did not believe Him; He never said they misunderstood His claim to be God. John 10:38 notes, “Even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Jesus was not correcting a misunderstanding. They understood what He said perfectly. He was correcting their willful rejection of Him.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/I-and-th...#ixzz3EzrHywxu


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That's why I said earlier that historically/textually there may be issues but I am not addressing the theological issues which involve faith.
The problem I have with this statement is that it invites the proverbial "camel's nose in the tent". It invites "if the Bible is wrong about this, what else is the Bible wrong about?" Next thing you now you find yourself swallowing the drivel of people like Bart Ehrman, and you end up questioning any and all of the major claims of Christ and the biblical writers. It's a Pandora's box that has led to the shipwrecking of the faith of many.
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:03 AM   #129
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In this instance 100,000 men had the same vision of the cross and Constantine used it as he took his men into battle and won over the entire Roman empire and turned it Christian. Of course, as I said, it is all a matter of faith. However, back in the day during Jesus' times visions, fantasies etc were more common than not. They believed the earth was flat. It was a different world and trying to explain everything using our terms was unknown. They used their own perspectives of their time. Studying early Christian history helps.
I think the ancient world's belief in the supernatural also made it more likely for real miracles to occur. If people adopt a naturalistic worldview, they will lack faith and God in turn will be less likely to be supernaturally involved in their lives, just as Jesus was unable to perform miracles in towns that lacked faith.

Unfortunately much of the Christian church today has adopted this naturalistic western worldview. However in Churches that believe in the supernatural and especially those outside the western church, miracles occur all the time.

As an example, here's a minister in North America with the gift of healing recording his evangelism experiences:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E62EgXvqfrc

Here's a trailer for "Furious Love" a documentary that records supernatural events occurring in churches outside of the west. Recommended for anyone who is curious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdrBsL7PZ2g
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:37 AM   #130
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I have no ideas about Unitarianism. My understanding is that they have a rather novel view of God, along with other religions (or at least did) that puts them on the verge of being only barely Christian, if at all.
If at all is right. Barely is an understatement .... not a drop of Jesus juice there.
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Old 10-02-2014, 11:58 AM   #131
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I'm grateful to Dave for introducing me to Dan Wallace.

What impresses me about Dan is his advice to avoid:

Two Attitudes

1) Radical Skepticism
2) Absolute Certainity
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Old 10-02-2014, 02:07 PM   #132
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I'm grateful to Dave for introducing me to Dan Wallace.

What impresses me about Dan is his advice to avoid:

Two Attitudes

1) Radical Skepticism
2) Absolute Certainity
This sounds similar to the two extremes Jesus warned about: the leaven of Pharisees and Sadducees.

1)The Pharisees believed in the supernatural and in God but they were over certain of their authority in understanding scripture. In their misguided zeal they ended up crucifying the Messiah they should have been looking for. They also treasured the tradition of their elders over God's word.

2) The Sadducees didn't believe in anything supernatural and denied the power of God, perhaps they were just "culturally" religious like many secular Christians are today.

Both camps ended up opposing Jesus. The Pharisees couldn't deny Jesus' miracles, so they instead attributed it to demon possession and sorcery, not unlike how some Christians today attack other Christians who practice the gifts of the Holy Spirit and accuse them of demon possession to explain miracles.

I think most of us who came out of LC and grew up in conservative evangelical backgrounds have experienced pharisaism, however the solution to pharisaism isn't to become a sadducee.

Paul actually warned that in the last days, people would become a combination of Pharisee and Sadducee, having an outward form of religion, but denying the power of God:

2 Timothy 3:1,5 (NLT)
You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times....
They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!
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Old 10-02-2014, 02:48 PM   #133
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This sounds similar to the two extremes Jesus warned about: the leaven of Pharisees and Sadducees.

2 Timothy 3:1,5 (NLT)
You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times....
They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!
I guess at some point someone will be correct and we will be in the last days. Since I am an historian of sorts and have studied the history of the Christian Church do you know how many times Christians have said that we are in the last days. I can't count that high. I suppose we are to always assume we are in the last days so we don't become complacent and don't look for the 2nd coming of Jesus. Of course, looking for the 2nd coming of Jesus is really a recent modern phenomenon, at least since the late 1800s.

On the other hand, during the first century the disciples were fully convinced that the Messiah would return and they would be taken to the kingdom of heaven. 2000 years later and, well, we are still waiting. I know, having doubts is Sadduceen but there you go...any day now it will happen...in the way that we imagine it or what we perceive the Bible describes it...don't know...hold onto your hats...
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Old 10-02-2014, 03:09 PM   #134
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I guess at some point someone will be correct and we will be in the last days. Since I am an historian of sorts and have studied the history of the Christian Church do you know how many times Christians have said that we are in the last days. I can't count that high. I suppose we are to always assume we are in the last days so we don't become complacent and don't look for the 2nd coming of Jesus. Of course, looking for the 2nd coming of Jesus is really a recent modern phenomenon, at least since the late 1800s.
Without date setters and beloved brothers like Harold Camping there would be no scoffers. Perhaps God arranged this so that scripture like this could be fulfilled:

2 Peter 3:3-4
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Quote:
On the other hand, during the first century the disciples were fully convinced that the Messiah would return and they would be taken to the kingdom of heaven. 2000 years later and, well, we are still waiting.
If a day to God is like a thousand years, then the disciples were also in the "last days" if Jesus is to return in recent millenia.

Quote:
I know, having doubts is Sadduceen but there you go...any day now it will happen...in the way that we imagine it or what we perceive the Bible describes it...don't know...hold onto your hats...
I'm against date setting, but then Jesus also tells us to "watch and pray" and he also provided some signs to watch out for prior to his coming (Luke 21:11). Jesus criticized the Pharisees for paying attention to signs for the weather, but missing the signs of his first coming when Daniel predicted it to the exact day (Luke 12:56).

Luke 12:48
But what if the servant thinks, 'My master won't be back for a while...'

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust. He will not forget how hard you have worked for him and how you have shown your love to him by caring for other believers, as you still do.
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Old 10-06-2014, 06:05 AM   #135
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A lot in these three sentences. For me, the answers (and more questions) follow on this line:

We are the people who are God's kingdom on earth. Not specifically any subgroup, but rather the whole of the people of God. Even those that we don't think much of. That we think are not as spiritual as we are. Who are too works oriented. Or too emotional. Or too cerebral. Or even too worldly (according the rulebook of our favorite sect, whoever that may be).

For me, while I no longer have regular experiences of near euphoria like we managed to drum up in the LRC, I am more clear and certain that Christ is building his church and it doesn't look like any particular one of our groups. Or like Western Christianity in general. Or like Asian or African Christianity in general. It looks like the people who are where they are becoming salt and light in the environments in which they find themselves.

And they are beginning to become more one. Not necessarily in every minor doctrine, but in the things of unity — Christ, faith, baptism, the Spirit, the Father, etc. I am one with any Christian in this way.

But as for bringing the Lord back, I'm not sure that this is our task. Our task is to bear God's image on the earth. Whenever and however he has decided to return is not something I find to be influenced by my behavior. Or that of large groups of Christians. Paul prayed concerning being taken up from his suffering here on earth. I don't recall him praying, or teaching, that we have a place in the determination of His return. We were told to watch for signs. Yet in almost every generation there are those who point to signs. And we do so and consider that this day may not end. And it might not. And yet another 2,000 years from now some may still be saying the same thing. And it does not make our faith and hope any less secure or meaningful.

Maybe the best solution is to always live as if it is the last that will ever be, and also as if we will be here until we are 95 and losing our minds to dementia, and many generations to come will do the same afterward.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.
I bolded that. This is from post #9. Back to the beginning... I appreciated the last few posts...but I went perusing back at the beginning and just had to comment again on OBW's post.

It just made me realize... I want to get away from doctrine, from facts, from so much dissection of the trees (That has its place... and look at the forest again.

The Lord never said anything about being one in doctrine. He prayed that we would be one through LOVING Him AND each other. THAT'S what Christ, Faith, the baptism, the Spirit, and the Father are REALLY all about.

Interestingly, His ways have never deviated from the beginning: You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength...and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. He's so simple I love His consistency! You could refer to it as "His FAITHFULNESS". There is nothing more precious about Him because without faithfulness on HIS part what hope do we have!? This is why COVENANT is so important... Praise the Lord!! But I get lost in praise...

Anyhow, let's ask the Lord to show us His love DAILY. I think this would please Him. Ask Him to reveal His love on every page of the Bible. Then, gradually, He will impart that same love into us. This is our greatest need. It is the key to knowing Him and to serving our fellow man, to our witness of the gospel to others!

Another interesting realization I've had since I left WL's churches... I was loving Him and His Word before I ever met "the saints" (LOL). What an irony.... I was seeing God's desire for us to LOVE Him and truly love one another in John 17, Romans 12-14, 1 Cor 12, etc. BEFORE I came under WL's ministry.

But I was dissatisfied with the Christianity I saw. I was dissatisfied with the Lord's progress in ME AND others. I didn't SEE much progress in me OR others. I was living by sight, not by faith. I was looking for OUTWARD indications. I wasn't believing much in Him OR others. I was impatient.

This reminds me of my own tendencies with my children. As a new mother it was easy to believe in amazing things for my children. But as they grew I always experienced a "tug of war" between my hopes for them and the problems, their weaknesses, our failures as parents I so easily observed, etc. Eventually I found the secret. It is this: They are made in God's image, EACH ONE, no less today than when I first received their precious little persons at birth Now, the challenge is still before me to be the best parent I can be. I dare not dwell on their failures and weaknesses. Why? Should I give up on them? Let me put it this way... Has God given up on me? The key is: Did I give up on God and His Word. And the answer must be no. The ONLY way for me to be the parent I should be is to BELIEVE in His work and pray diligently for faith to be wrought into me and THEM. I won't look at all their failures (or dwell on mine) but keep committing them and myself to HIM Who has promised to complete that which He began.

This is the WAR we are in. It's a battle that can only be won by faith in Him. He's the only hope for all of us.

So,...after my stint in the LCs I've learned MANY precious lessons. But the most important one(s) might be: don't give up on God's promises. And don't give up on God's people. Just love them. Appreciate them. They ALL have something to give. Don't think so highly of yourself (myself) that I can't receive anything from my brothers and sisters! or from an imperfect pastor, teacher, etc. If that one GENUINELY HOLDS TO GOD'S WORD, LOVING HIM AND OTHERS WITH ALL HIS/HER BEING GOD WILL HAVE HIS WAY WITH THEM!! I am NOT the judge. I am NOT omniscient. I don't even know MYSELF as He knows me! I don't know what I don't know (get that?...Lol) So stop playing God. Neither doubt God. But grow in the love of our Lord Jesus! Easy, huh? Lol!!! This'll take a lifetime. Yup, for YOU AND ME.
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Old 10-06-2014, 07:28 AM   #136
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dancing View Post
I bolded that. This is from post #9. Back to the beginning... I appreciated the last few posts...but I went perusing back at the beginning and just had to comment again on OBW's post.

It just made me realize... I want to get away from doctrine, from facts, from so much dissection of the trees (That has its place... and look at the forest again.

The Lord never said anything about being one in doctrine. He prayed that we would be one through LOVING Him AND each other. THAT'S what Christ, Faith, the baptism, the Spirit, and the Father are REALLY all about.

Interestingly, His ways have never deviated from the beginning: You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength...and you shall love your neighbor as yourself. He's so simple I love His consistency! You could refer to it as "His FAITHFULNESS". There is nothing more precious about Him because without faithfulness on HIS part what hope do we have!? This is why COVENANT is so important... Praise the Lord!! But I get lost in praise...

Anyhow, let's ask the Lord to show us His love DAILY. I think this would please Him. Ask Him to reveal His love on every page of the Bible. Then, gradually, He will impart that same love into us. This is our greatest need. It is the key to knowing Him and to serving our fellow man, to our witness of the gospel to others!

Another interesting realization I've had since I left WL's churches... I was loving Him and His Word before I ever met "the saints" (LOL). What an irony.... I was seeing God's desire for us to LOVE Him and truly love one another in John 17, Romans 12-14, 1 Cor 12, etc. BEFORE I came under WL's ministry.

But I was dissatisfied with the Christianity I saw. I was dissatisfied with the Lord's progress in ME AND others. I didn't SEE much progress in me OR others. I was living by sight, not by faith. I was looking for OUTWARD indications. I wasn't believing much in Him OR others. I was impatient.

This reminds me of my own tendencies with my children. As a new mother it was easy to believe in amazing things for my children. But as they grew I always experienced a "tug of war" between my hopes for them and the problems, their weaknesses, our failures as parents I so easily observed, etc. Eventually I found the secret. It is this: They are made in God's image, EACH ONE, no less today than when I first received their precious little persons at birth Now, the challenge is still before me to be the best parent I can be. I dare not dwell on their failures and weaknesses. Why? Should I give up on them? Let me put it this way... Has God given up on me? The key is: Did I give up on God and His Word. And the answer must be no. The ONLY way for me to be the parent I should be is to BELIEVE in His work and pray diligently for faith to be wrought into me and THEM. I won't look at all their failures (or dwell on mine) but keep committing them and myself to HIM Who has promised to complete that which He began.

This is the WAR we are in. It's a battle that can only be won by faith in Him. He's the only hope for all of us.

So,...after my stint in the LCs I've learned MANY precious lessons. But the most important one(s) might be: don't give up on God's promises. And don't give up on God's people. Just love them. Appreciate them. They ALL have something to give. Don't think so highly of yourself (myself) that I can't receive anything from my brothers and sisters! or from an imperfect pastor, teacher, etc. If that one GENUINELY HOLDS TO GOD'S WORD, LOVING HIM AND OTHERS WITH ALL HIS/HER BEING GOD WILL HAVE HIS WAY WITH THEM!! I am NOT the judge. I am NOT omniscient. I don't even know MYSELF as He knows me! I don't know what I don't know (get that?...Lol) So stop playing God. Neither doubt God. But grow in the love of our Lord Jesus! Easy, huh? Lol!!! This'll take a lifetime. Yup, for YOU AND ME.
Good post sis. Most of it could be used as our compass.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:00 AM   #137
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

Last week we missed a special day -- Simchat Torah -- the "Rejoicing In The Law" day.

Who knew?
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Old 10-22-2014, 01:02 PM   #138
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Last week we missed a special day -- Simchat Torah -- the "Rejoicing In The Law" day.

Who knew?
I'll bet Dancing knew. Where is our sister anyway?
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Old 10-22-2014, 03:58 PM   #139
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Default Re: ... What HE says!

In building on what Dancing originally stated, "What HE says" and her emphasis on the law I think she has a point.
Jesus was an interpreter of the law: Mark 10:17-22; Luke 16:16, Matt: 5:17-20, John 10:34-35

Along with other Jewish teachers of the day, what God wanted was for his people to keep the commandments that formed the heart of his law, the commandments to love God above all else (Deut 6:4) and to love one's neighbor as oneself (Lev. 19:18, Mark 12:28-34)

Furthermore, the commandment to love is all encompassing since it requires the necessity to enter God's kingdom, the ultimate goal:
.....Sell everything for the pearl of great price: Matt: 13-45-46
.....Forget about even food and clothing: Matt: 39-42, 6:25-33
.....Serve only one master: Luke 16:13
.....Give up everything: Mark 10 10:17-21, Mark 10:29-31
.....Forget family Luke: 14:26
.....Split up families Luke: 12:51-53

In the end, WL put his family and other things ahead of the kingdom and we all suffered as a result. WL didn't follow "What He Says" and not to be judgmental but it is a tough road to hoe. Unfortunately WL wanted us to put all of our eggs in his basket..
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