Is God a Racist?

[Evangelical]

Paraphrased from:

"https://answersingenesis.org/racism/are-there-really-different-races/"

Many Christians today hold onto the wrong ideas regarding human race. Evolutionary thought is not just about the age of the Earth and origin of the species, it also touches on the matter of the human identity and how we view ourselves, such as our race. The origins of our modern understanding of race and racial diversity stems from evolutionary thinking originating with Charles Darwin (and others). Evolutionary thought (not the Bible) was a motivator for the racist ideas prevalent throughout Anglo-Saxon cultures over the past centuries.

What many Christians may not know is that the idea that human beings can be classified according to outward features, skin color, eye shape etc- what we call "race", is foreign to the Bible.

What does the Bible say?:

1. God did not create different races, He created one human race, with two genders, male and female (Gen 11:1-11). God created one human race with diversity:

Acts 17:26 "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,"

2. The notion of "race" cannot be found in our Bibles:

The Bible does not even use the word race in reference to people,14 but it does describe all human beings as being of “one blood” (Acts 17:26). This of course emphasizes that we are all related, as all humans are descendants of the first man, Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45),15 who was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26–27).16 The Last Adam, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:45) also became a descendant of Adam. Any descendant of Adam can be saved because our mutual relative by blood (Jesus Christ) died and rose again. This is why the gospel can (and should) be preached to all tribes and nations.

The term race is often used to classify people based almost solely on physical characteristics. According to evolutionary ideas, these so-called races descended from different ancestors separated by location and time. However, based on biblical history, the term race must be incorrect. We are all one race (“one blood” in Acts 17:26), the human race.

"https://answersingenesis.org/racism/are-there-really-different-races/"

3. God's end goal is great diversity of people from every nation to be in his kingdom:

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,


Summary

God is not a racist,
a) because our modern concept of "race" did not come from the Bible or God.
b) because God wishes His kingdom to be made up of people from "all tribes, peoples and languages".

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Paraphrased from:

"https://answersingenesis.org/racism/are-there-really-different-races/"

Many Christians today hold onto the wrong ideas regarding human race. Evolutionary thought is not just about the age of the Earth and origin of the species, it also touches on the matter of the human identity and how we view ourselves, such as our race. The origins of our modern understanding of race and racial diversity stems from evolutionary thinking originating with Charles Darwin (and others). Evolutionary thought (not the Bible) was a motivator for the racist ideas prevalent throughout Anglo-Saxon cultures over the past centuries.

What many Christians may not know is that the idea that human beings can be classified according to outward features, skin color, eye shape etc- what we call "race", is foreign to the Bible.

What does the Bible say?:

1. God did not create different races, He created one human race, with two genders, male and female (Gen 11:1-11). God created one human race with diversity:

Acts 17:26 "And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,"

2. The notion of "race" cannot be found in our Bibles:

The Bible does not even use the word race in reference to people,14 but it does describe all human beings as being of “one blood” (Acts 17:26). This of course emphasizes that we are all related, as all humans are descendants of the first man, Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45),15 who was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26–27).16 The Last Adam, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:45) also became a descendant of Adam. Any descendant of Adam can be saved because our mutual relative by blood (Jesus Christ) died and rose again. This is why the gospel can (and should) be preached to all tribes and nations.

The term race is often used to classify people based almost solely on physical characteristics. According to evolutionary ideas, these so-called races descended from different ancestors separated by location and time. However, based on biblical history, the term race must be incorrect. We are all one race (“one blood” in Acts 17:26), the human race.

"https://answersingenesis.org/racism/are-there-really-different-races/"

3. God's end goal is great diversity of people from every nation to be in his kingdom:

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,


Summary

God is not a racist,
a) because our modern concept of "race" did not come from the Bible or God.
b) because God wishes His kingdom to be made up of people from "all tribes, peoples and languages".

Good OP Evangelical. But :

First, right off, you bring in my good ol' Kentucky boy Ken Ham. Ken Ham of the Creation Museum here in Kentucky (that has humans riding dinosaurs - ha ha - like taking the Fred Flintstone cartoon literal ; and of the the Ark attraction (another cartoon), also here in Ky. And Ken Ham, the Bible says it, young earther - (actually James Ussher says it) ; and Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis.

And you can't blame Darwin for racism, as that's Social Darwinism, which has nothing to do with Darwin. I think you can pin that on Thomas Henry Huxley in his April 1860 review of "On the Origin of Species." And by the way the Aryan race is "the fittest." Ha ha. That's Social Darwinism.

And what do you mean 'the word race is not in the Bible.'

Act_7:19 He dealt shrewdly with our race and forced our fathers to expose their infants, so that they would not be kept alive.

1Pe_2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Plus, God forbade His chose race from mixing with the other races. That's clearly in the Bible. Jesus went against the exclusivity of God's chosen race by eating and drinking with the unclean, and outcasts, from God's one and only chosen race.

Ezr_9:2 For they have taken some of their daughters to be wives for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race has mixed itself with the peoples of the lands. And in this faithlessness the hand

So I conclude that, God is too a racist, but Jesus and Paul were not.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

First, right off, you bring in my good ol' Kentucky boy Ken Ham. Ken Ham of the Creation Museum here in Kentucky (that has humans riding dinosaurs - ha ha - like taking the Fred Flintstone cartoon literal ; and of the the Ark attraction (another cartoon), also here in Ky. And Ken Ham, the Bible says it, young earther - (actually James Ussher says it) ; and Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis.

Hey awareness, do you accept the historical event of the flood in Noah's time, or was the ark just a cartoon?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good OP Evangelical. But :

First, right off, you bring in my good ol' Kentucky boy Ken Ham. Ken Ham of the Creation Museum here in Kentucky (that has humans riding dinosaurs - ha ha - like taking the Fred Flintstone cartoon literal ; and of the the Ark attraction (another cartoon), also here in Ky. And Ken Ham, the Bible says it, young earther - (actually James Ussher says it) ; and Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis.

And you can't blame Darwin for racism, as that's Social Darwinism, which has nothing to do with Darwin. I think you can pin that on Thomas Henry Huxley in his April 1860 review of "On the Origin of Species." And by the way the Aryan race is "the fittest." Ha ha. That's Social Darwinism.

And what do you mean 'the word race is not in the Bible.'

Act_7:19 He dealt shrewdly with our race and forced our fathers to expose their infants, so that they would not be kept alive.

1Pe_2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Plus, God forbade His chose race from mixing with the other races. That's clearly in the Bible. Jesus went against the exclusivity of God's chosen race by eating and drinking with the unclean, and outcasts, from God's one and only chosen race.

Ezr_9:2 For they have taken some of their daughters to be wives for themselves and for their sons, so that the holy race has mixed itself with the peoples of the lands. And in this faithlessness the hand

So I conclude that, God is too a racist, but Jesus and Paul were not.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I mean the word race as used today to refer to genetic characteristics.

I can easily show the difference. Consider, is there any such thing as a "holy race" in our modern use of the term race? No, because today the word race refers to genetics, skin color, eye shape etc. If you tell someone your race is holy they won't know what you are talking about.

This is because the word race in the Bible refers to culture, not genetics. God did not want his people's culture to be mixed with other cultures. That is nothing to do with skin color, eye color, of which there could have been great diversity among God's people.

You may not know this but Jewish is not a race. It was actually Hitler and those social evolutionary thinking that declared Judaism to be a race to be exterminated like vermin. If we want to talk genetics of the Jewish people, actually today the Jews that inhabit Israel are mostly not blood related to the ancient Israelites. Many Christians view Jewish as a race and unknowingly believe a racist view held by Hitler et al (that Jew is a race). Many Christians naively think the Israelites living in Israel today are blood related to the Israelite's they read about in the Old Testament. They do not understand what thousands of years of generations and migrations does to DNA, nor do they understand the mathematics of combinatorics.

The ironic thing is that the people of Afghanistan and those sorts of countries are more blood related to the ancient Israelites we read about in our Bible's, than the people that presently inhabit Israel. Today in terms of religion they are mostly Muslim. I am not talking about the conspiracy theory about the "lost tribes of Israel" - there is no such thing as a "lost tribe of Israel". But what is factually and genetically provable - because of God's judgement on His people, the genetics of his people were spread far and wide among countries such as Afghanistan.

I consider it to be ironic because America is supporting Israel who genetically are not (ancient) Israelites, yet are fighting and supporting Afghanistan who genetically are more (ancient) Israelite than the (country) Israelis. It is ironic because Christians support Israel who are genetically not so related to the Israel of the Bible, yet don't care so much about the Afghani's and other peoples who are. For further reading on this, this website is interesting:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ghanistan.html

http://www.sharnoffsglobalviews.com/...ns-jewish-261/

It is remarkable that the Taliban that America is fighting today are possibly true (genetic) descendants of the people of Israel:
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2.209/...-jews-1.261447

But I am not saying that Christians supporting Israel is wrong or that America should not fight the Taliban. I am trying to highlight the stupidity in bringing a genetics or race-ist view on the Bible and that it doesn't make sense really to talk about race (genetics) and God's people today. Race in the Bible is about religion and culture. Race today, should be about religion and culture, if it weren't for the racists, like Hitler, among us.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hey awareness, do you accept the historical event of the flood in Noah's time, or was the ark just a cartoon?

I accept that floods are historical. I also accept that there are many flood myths, much older than the flood story in Genesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

As to Noah gathering two critters from all the animal kingdom into a big boat, that's a silly childish story to me.

[awareness]

That was some post Evan. (Left below)

So then, since the Jews are not a race then God is not a racist. Well done. Then God is a groupist ; in that he selected only one group of people to be His chosen people, and no one else. Maybe it's His club, so he's a clubist.

Like the Jews in the movie "God on Trial," said, just before going in the gas chamber :

"He made one hundred thousand million stars in our galaxy locally.
How many of them have planets, we don't know.
And yet, his whole attention is focused on one little planet right down on the edge of an outer spiral.
And not even with the whole planet, no.
Just with the Jews.
This man, who made one hundred thousand million stars, signed a contract with the Jews.
Just the Jews."

Methinks we need to take into account who authored the OT books. I'll give you a hint : They weren't Hindu's. The entire Bible, both Testaments, is a Jewish production.

And I really liked how you brought genetics into the race question. Of course, they didn't know of genetics back then. Then you use genetics to support that the Jews aren't a race, then went into how the Afghan and Taliban have more biological ties to the Bible and Abraham than the Jews in Israel.

You spoke of the mathematics of combinatorics, but failed to point out the mass conversion in Khazaria in the 8th century, that resulted in the Ashkenazi Jews, who have no blood ties, and are actually Turks. Maybe like they said in the movie, "God made a covenant with other people," and the Turks are now His chosen people ... and they can't by any stretch be considered a race.

So to close. If the Jews are a race then God is a racist. If not then God is something like a parent showing preferential treatment to some of His children, and rejecting all His other children.

Even human parents know better than that.

H-a

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I mean the word race as used today to refer to genetic characteristics.

I can easily show the difference. Consider, is there any such thing as a "holy race" in our modern use of the term race? No, because today the word race refers to genetics, skin color, eye shape etc. If you tell someone your race is holy they won't know what you are talking about.

This is because the word race in the Bible refers to culture, not genetics. God did not want his people's culture to be mixed with other cultures. That is nothing to do with skin color, eye color, of which there could have been great diversity among God's people.

You may not know this but Jewish is not a race. It was actually Hitler and those social evolutionary thinking that declared Judaism to be a race to be exterminated like vermin. If we want to talk genetics of the Jewish people, actually today the Jews that inhabit Israel are mostly not blood related to the ancient Israelites. Many Christians view Jewish as a race and unknowingly believe a racist view held by Hitler et al (that Jew is a race). Many Christians naively think the Israelites living in Israel today are blood related to the Israelite's they read about in the Old Testament. They do not understand what thousands of years of generations and migrations does to DNA, nor do they understand the mathematics of combinatorics.

The ironic thing is that the people of Afghanistan and those sorts of countries are more blood related to the ancient Israelites we read about in our Bible's, than the people that presently inhabit Israel. Today in terms of religion they are mostly Muslim. I am not talking about the conspiracy theory about the "lost tribes of Israel" - there is no such thing as a "lost tribe of Israel". But what is factually and genetically provable - because of God's judgement on His people, the genetics of his people were spread far and wide among countries such as Afghanistan.

I consider it to be ironic because America is supporting Israel who genetically are not (ancient) Israelites, yet are fighting and supporting Afghanistan who genetically are more (ancient) Israelite than the (country) Israelis. It is ironic because Christians support Israel who are genetically not so related to the Israel of the Bible, yet don't care so much about the Afghani's and other peoples who are. For further reading on this, this website is interesting:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ghanistan.html

http://www.sharnoffsglobalviews.com/...ns-jewish-261/

It is remarkable that the Taliban that America is fighting today are possibly true (genetic) descendants of the people of Israel:
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/2.209/...-jews-1.261447

But I am not saying that Christians supporting Israel is wrong or that America should not fight the Taliban. I am trying to highlight the stupidity in bringing a genetics or race-ist view on the Bible and that it doesn't make sense really to talk about race (genetics) and God's people today. Race in the Bible is about religion and culture. Race today, should be about religion and culture, if it weren't for the racists, like Hitler, among us.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

As to Noah gathering two critters from all the animal kingdom into a big boat, that's a silly childish story to me.

You have made similar comments about Jesus too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have made similar comments about Jesus too.

No, not about Jesus. Just some of the fantastical stories about him, that I see as standard motif's in mythical lore.

I think what happened to me is that I outgrew Santa Claus.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

That was some post Evan. (Left below)

So then, since the Jews are not a race then God is not a racist. Well done. Then God is a groupist ; in that he selected only one group of people to be His chosen people, and no one else. Maybe it's His club, so he's a clubist.

Like the Jews in the movie "God on Trial," said, just before going in the gas chamber :

"He made one hundred thousand million stars in our galaxy locally.
How many of them have planets, we don't know.
And yet, his whole attention is focused on one little planet right down on the edge of an outer spiral.
And not even with the whole planet, no.
Just with the Jews.
This man, who made one hundred thousand million stars, signed a contract with the Jews.
Just the Jews."

Methinks we need to take into account who authored the OT books. I'll give you a hint : They weren't Hindu's. The entire Bible, both Testaments, is a Jewish production.

And I really liked how you brought genetics into the race question. Of course, they didn't know of genetics back then. Then you use genetics to support that the Jews aren't a race, then went into how the Afghan and Taliban have more biological ties to the Bible and Abraham than the Jews in Israel.

You spoke of the mathematics of combinatorics, but failed to point out the mass conversion in Khazaria in the 8th century, that resulted in the Ashkenazi Jews, who have no blood ties, and are actually Turks. Maybe like they said in the movie, "God made a covenant with other people," and the Turks are now His chosen people ... and they can't by any stretch be considered a race.

So to close. If the Jews are a race then God is a racist. If not then God is something like a parent showing preferential treatment to some of His children, and rejecting all His other children.

Even human parents know better than that.

H-a

By claiming that God is a racist you are in fact - a racist. A racist is someone who sees race as a dividing matter between humanity. Those who do not see race are the true non-racists. Your mind has obviously been corrupted by the same lies that deceived Hitler - social evolution.

Putting this matter of race aside, the question is about why did God choose Israel? -

http://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy...choose-israel/

God always had a greater purpose in choosing the Jews, which is ultimately to bless all creation, all the nations.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

I accept that floods are historical. I also accept that there are many flood myths, much older than the flood story in Genesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

As to Noah gathering two critters from all the animal kingdom into a big boat, that's a silly childish story to me.

You've got balls to say the things you do against the Bible and against God, but you don't got much of a brain, cos you might get judged. Your punishment will be 40 days and nights in Ken Ham's ark museum.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I accept that floods are historical. I also accept that there are many flood myths, much older than the flood story in Genesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth

As to Noah gathering two critters from all the animal kingdom into a big boat, that's a silly childish story to me.

I understand those who look at this story about something that happened thousands of years ago and say "silly", "childish", "impossible".

But if that were in fact true then what would be completely totally impossible is the Lord's word that the end of the age would be "as the days of Noah".

Yet here we are

We have the day we heard that this is the start of the 5th great extinction.

We have the day that man began to gather seeds and DNA into "arks" to preserve for after the flood.

If the story is so "silly" and "childish" and "impossible" then why is it happening again, a second time?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You've got #$%& to say the things you do against the Bible and against God, but you don't got much of a brain, cos you might get judged. Your punishment will be 40 days and nights in Ken Ham's ark museum.

LOL ... can't I have hell instead ... please, pretty please???

Maybe you need to check out the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye the science guy on youTube ... on Creation v. Evolution ,,, held at The Creation Museum :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvO3zJaNBjs

Writing "Creation" made me think, about, is God a racist and Adam and Eve. I don't know this, there's certainly no Bible verses to support it, I don't think, but Adam and Eve weren't Jewish, and God was starting only one race : the human race.

So Adam and Eve failed (ran straight for the wrong tree, bypassing the tree of life), and God curse everything, and eventually the Jews came along. Is that more of the curse? That God became a racist as more of the curse? Just wondering?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

No, not about Jesus. Just some of the fantastical stories about him, that I see as standard motif's in mythical lore.

I think what happened to me is that I outgrew Santa Claus.

How can you ever separate Jesus from the gospel records we have of Him?

Perhaps your "Jesus" is merely a younger and thinner Santa Claus.

----------------------------------

What do we do with Jesus' own words, "But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

LOL ... can't I have hell instead ... please, pretty please???

Maybe you need to check out the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye the science guy on youTube ... on Creation v. Evolution ,,, held at The Creation Museum :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvO3zJaNBjs

Writing "Creation" made me think, about, is God a racist and Adam and Eve. I don't know this, there's certainly no Bible verses to support it, I don't think, but Adam and Eve weren't Jewish, and God was starting only one race : the human race.

So Adam and Eve failed (ran straight for the wrong tree, bypassing the tree of life), and God curse everything, and eventually the Jews came along. Is that more of the curse? That God became a racist as more of the curse? Just wondering?

I did not mention the worst of it. For most of those 40 days and nights you will have to ride the back of a very spiny dinosaur without even so much as a fig leaf for a saddle, until you (by experience) admit that it is possible for dinosaurs to fit in confined spaces such as the ark.

Seriously now, regarding God and race - from Genesis it seems God had more against trees of tasty forbidden fruit and talking serpents than the genetic varieties of the human race. These days I don't even know what the word racist means. Neither does millions of Americans who voted for their next president, it would seem.

[zeek]

I find the proposition that God is a racist offensive. If God represents Ultimate Reality then God cannot be less than the summum bonum, that is, "the highest good". If that presents a problem for Bible exegesis, then so be it. The problem is basically an epistemological one not a theological one. God must be God or not exist. There is no middle ground. Middle ground distorts the image of God's ultimate "character." As the authors of the New Testament and the proto-Orthodox Church Fathers recognized, it better to accept paradox then compromise the essential character of God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I find the proposition that God is a racist offensive. If God represents Ultimate Reality then God cannot be less than the summum bonum, that is, "the highest good". If that presents a problem for Bible exegesis, then so be it. The problem is basically an epistemological one not a theological one. God must be God or not exist. There is no middle ground. Middle ground distorts the image of God's ultimate "character." As the authors of the New Testament and the proto-Orthodox Church Fathers recognized, it better to accept paradox then compromise the essential character of God.

Well I can't help this response. Sorry in advance.

I sure hope that God is not as anal as you say He is.

And what? If God ain't perfect that means that He doesn't exist? Say what? So to you God is the ultimate good, the summum bonum, or He's dead? Okay Nietzsche.

But honestly. You're willing to hold to this premise to the point of discounting the Biblical record? because it offends you that those accounts have God making His chosen people a small nomadic desert tribe?

Rather than say he's either ultimate good or nonexistent, you might get on better if you gave God a little breathing room, to be whatever He likes.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I can't help this response. Sorry in advance.

Why? Are you a freakin' bot?

I sure hope that God is not as anal as you say He is.

False attribution. I said nothing of the kind.

And what? If God ain't perfect that means that He doesn't exist? Say what?

If God is the supreme being, then a perfect god is supreme over an imperfect one. Therefore, an imperfect god is not God.

So to you God is the ultimate good, the summum bonum, or He's dead? Okay Nietzsche.

Nietzsche said "God is dead" not "God does not exist." Surely you can see the difference.

But honestly. You're willing to hold to this premise to the point of discounting the Biblical record?

Like I said, it's an exegetical problem. I could have said it's a hermeneutic problem. "Discounting" implies a zero/sum or all/nothing game. You're thinking is so fundamentalist.

because it offends you that those accounts have God making His chosen people a small nomadic desert tribe?

From their point of view God chose them. They didn't have the benefit of anthropological research showing that it is typical group behavior to see members as having a unique relationship with the god or gods. Every individual is the center of his/her universe. The Bible shows us how this human tendency plays itself out in the eventual realization of God's universal relationship with humanity though Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The Bible is evidence that the concept of God evolves.

Rather than say he's either ultimate good or nonexistent, you might get on better if you gave God a little breathing room, to be whatever He likes.

It serves your position to confuse God with our conception of God. Why would our conception of God affect the reality of God? Isn't more likely the other way around? If we are deluded with respect to reality, it is primarily we who suffer, right? Reality goes on quite well with or without us. Or, at least it seems to for other people, so why should we expect it to behave differently for us?

[awareness]

Bro zeek you present lots of grist for the mill.

Originally Posted by Me

I sure hope that God is not as anal as you say He is.

Okay, okay, you said something like God must be the ultimate goody-goody-two-shoes. So the term being anal couldn't possibly apply to God. He can't have any self reference to such a thing. He's not allowed. He MUST be perfect and ultimate good or, poof, He's gone ; because zeek more or less says, if God decides to be less than perfect or less than ultimate good, He doesn't exist anymore, if ever.

Originally Posted by zeek

If God is the supreme being, then a perfect god is supreme over an imperfect one. Therefore, an imperfect god is not God.

Bahahahaha .... That sounds like a self eating cartoon.

Originally Posted by zeek

Nietzsche said "God is dead" not "God does not exist." Surely you can see the difference.

Oh Nietzsche was just repeating what had been said for 14 centuries by trinitarians, that God died. Maybe Nietzsche didn't mean that, but He did mean that God existed -- like the trinitarians, for whatever that's worth.

Question : is a God that dies the ultimate perfection and good?

Another question : if God doesn't exist to what do we reference for ultimate perfection and ultimate good? Are you positing that there is no ultimate perfection and/or good? if God don't exist then they don't either?

Originally Posted by Me

But honestly. You're willing to hold to this premise to the point of discounting the Biblical record?

Duh ....

Originally Posted by Me

because it offends you that those accounts have God making His chosen people a small nomadic desert tribe?

Doesn't that mean the Bible stories of the Jews being God's chosen people are just typical tribal thinking and story telling? Well it is true that it's the Jews telling the stories. Makes sense. Since the whole Bible is Jews writing the stories, wouldn't that mean the whole Bible is just a big story, written by a small nomadic desert tribe, writing their tribal mythology, that God loves them more than all the others of the whole human race?

But hey, they say that God turns everything to good (He doesn't have a choice zeek says) so He turned His racism into the good of the book the Bible.

Did the human race conceive the idea of ultimate perfection and goodness before this little tribe wrote the Bible? Of course, where do you think the Bible came from?

But wait. The stories the Jews tell in the Bible depict God as less than ultimate perfection and goodness. So if your premise that God has to be ultimate perfection, et al, or not exist is right, then, the Bible is teaching that God doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by zeek

Every individual is the center of his/her universe. The Bible shows us how this human tendency plays itself out in the eventual realization of God's universal relationship with humanity though Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. The Bible is evidence that the concept of God evolves.

Given the difference of God in the OT and God in the NT I guess you are right. Are you saying that our concept of God has been evolving since those books, and is still evolving right now in these modern times?

Originally Posted by Me

Rather than say he's either ultimate good or nonexistent, you might get on better if you gave God a little breathing room, to be whatever He likes.

And your conception of the ultimate perfection, et al. (or lack thereof) doesn't affect the reality of God either.

So as much as it may offend you, if the Bible is true -- I realize you seem to be calling that into question -- God is a racist, is less than perfect, and still exists.

[awareness]

I just thought I would add this. There is a race that God completely left out of any relations to His chosen little pets, the Hebrews. That is : the Native American Indians, otherwise known as The First Nation People, or known racially as, the redman.

The Great Spirit selected them as chosen ones. And the red tribes said that their tribe were the Real People, and all other tribes weren't real people ; pretty much like the Hebrews claimed of their tribe. They also have other similarities.

They both had a religion passed down orally, that were eventually written down later. They both had or have complex mythological systems, with creation stories, and stories of floods.

At any rate, since western world discovered the "Indians," what we can now see clearly is what seems to be a tribal pattern. And that is, all tribes think they are the special tribe on the earth, more special than all other tribes.

And the tribe that we follow and hold to, the Hebrews, that we believe to be God's chosen race, or tribe, -- the entire Bible was written by them -- did not include the red men tribes.

Why is that? Did God not love them? Did God not create them? Did He leave all that to The Great Spirit?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

I just thought I would add this. There is a race that God completely left out of any relations to His chosen little pets, the Hebrews. That is : the Native American Indians, otherwise known as The First Nation People, or known racially as, the redman.

The Great Spirit selected them as chosen ones. And the red tribes said that their tribe were the Real People, and all other tribes weren't real people ; pretty much like the Hebrews claimed of their tribe. They also have other similarities.

They both had a religion passed down orally, that were eventually written down later. They both had or have complex mythological systems, with creation stories, and stories of floods.

At any rate, since western world discovered the "Indians," what we can now see clearly is what seems to be a tribal pattern. And that is, all tribes think they are the special tribe on the earth, more special than all other tribes.

And the tribe that we follow and hold to, the Hebrews, that we believe to be God's chosen race, or tribe, -- the entire Bible was written by them -- did not include the red men tribes.

Why is that? Did God not love them? Did God not create them? Did He leave all that to The Great Spirit?

The American tribes did not write anything down until after the arrival of Europeans. So God chose the Europeans to introduce a writing system to the tribes.

What you are saying is what Mormon's believe.

But DNA evidence proves otherwise:

http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/...ii/2015/02/04/


The Theory Is Bunk

Today, of course, this belief is not accepted by most people and certainly not by Orthodox Jews. (It is, however, a fundamental tenet of Mormonism.)

Simon G. Southerton’s book Losing a Lost Tribe[iii] contains a thorough study of the pre-migration origin of Native Americans based on DNA genetic markers. His results show that these peoples are of Siberian and Polynesian. If the American Indians were of Hebrew descent, their DNA would correlate with Middle Eastern genetic markers, which it does not. Thus, DNA testing contradicts the doctrine that the aborigine peoples living here when the New World was discovered were descended from the ten lost tribes.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The American tribes did not write anything down until after the arrival of Europeans. So God chose the Europeans to introduce a writing system to the tribes.

Yes, the line between history and prehistory came much later for native Americans. There's much written on it.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What you are saying is what Mormon's believe.

How so? The link you provided just confirmed what I said. That, the red tribes were left out of the Hebrew tribes, out of knowing about Jesus, and knowing anything about the Bible at all.

Here's another story. When Cortés came to the Americas in the 16th c., he found that the Aztecs had many of the sacraments of the Catholic church. They had a savior, whose symbol was a cross ; who had died, resurrected, and ascended to the heavens ; and who was coming back in the final days to fight the final battle against evil.

Cortés and his bishops brought this news back home to Spain. Well the church found it very puzzling. They called a meeting of the top church leaders, to discussed and debated how that could be. One theory was that St. Thomas came over and taught them, back in the early days of Christianity. But another theory was offered ; that it was Satan throwing up a mockery of the church. They went with the latter, and Cortés went back and slaughter the Aztecs, stole all their gold, and colonized their lands.

Ha ha. Killing Satan for God has been a favorite convenient strategy for taking from other peoples, ever since Satan was conceived. That's because, those that are true to God are obligated to kill and take the spoils from "those devils."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes, the line between history and prehistory came much later for native Americans. There's much written on it.


How so? The link you provided just confirmed what I said. That, the red tribes were left out of the Hebrew tribes, out of knowing about Jesus, and knowing anything about the Bible at all.

Here's another story. When Cortés came to the Americas in the 16th c., he found that the Aztecs had many of the sacraments of the Catholic church. They had a savior, whose symbol was a cross ; who had died, resurrected, and ascended to the heavens ; and who was coming back in the final days to fight the final battle against evil.

Cortés and his bishops brought this news back home to Spain. Well the church found it very puzzling. They called a meeting of the top church leaders, to discussed and debated how that could be. One theory was that St. Thomas came over and taught them, back in the early days of Christianity. But another theory was offered ; that it was Satan throwing up a mockery of the church. They went with the latter, and Cortés went back and slaughter the Aztecs, stole all their gold, and colonized their lands.

Ha ha. Killing Satan for God has been a favorite convenient strategy for taking from other peoples, ever since Satan was conceived. That's because, those that are true to God are obligated to kill and take the spoils from "those devils."

The link also said it is a Mormon belief that the American tribes are related to Israel.

The story you presented is different to this one:

Cortés presented the gospel to various Indian chiefs, urging them to replace their idols with a Christian altar, cross, and images of the Virgin Mary. Once, when Cortés stumbled upon a room filled with Aztec idols—its walls stained with blood from human sacrifices—he exclaimed, “O God, why do you permit the Devil to be so greatly honored in this land?” Then he began to smash the idols with an iron bar, shouting, “Shall we not do something for God

http://www.christianitytoday.com/his...onquerors.html

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The link also said it is a Mormon belief that the American tribes are related to Israel.

The story you presented is different to this one:

Cortés presented the gospel to various Indian chiefs, urging them to replace their idols with a Christian altar, cross, and images of the Virgin Mary. Once, when Cortés stumbled upon a room filled with Aztec idols—its walls stained with blood from human sacrifices—he exclaimed, “O God, why do you permit the Devil to be so greatly honored in this land?” Then he began to smash the idols with an iron bar, shouting, “Shall we not do something for God

http://www.christianitytoday.com/his...onquerors.html

The bottomline is that the native Americans had no knowledge of the Jews, Jesus, or the Bible. It appears that the God of the Hebrews left those tribes out of the picture. Is God a racist against the red man?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

The bottomline is that the native Americans had no knowledge of the Jews, Jesus, or the Bible. It appears that the God of the Hebrews left those tribes out of the picture.

Until God chose the white man to introduce them to alcohol, I mean God.