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Old 06-25-2013, 10:42 PM   #1
james73
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Default 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

After reading just the first few pages of the LSM Life Study of Ephesians, the phrase "Not many Christians know" jumped out at me again and again. I found this quite distasteful (and fueling the fire of the arrogance of my home group) so I did a little research project...

Here, for your viewing pleasure, are "106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)", according to seven Life Studies (Genesis, Exodus, Ephesians, Hebrews, 1 Corinthians, Colossians & Revelation).

Enjoy - this is not intended for apologetic or theological discussion, simply to show Lee's arrogant writing style "enlarged ad absurdum"
Quote:
  1. “That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.
  2. A number of Bible teachers have pointed out that the altar typifies the cross and that the sacrifices typify Christ. However, not many teachers have gone on to find out how Christ is typified by other items in chapters twenty-one through twenty-three of Exodus.
  3. Above us there is the sphere ruled by Satan, the ruler of the authority of the air. Not many Christians have an adequate understanding of this evil power in the air.
  4. After they were baptized they could say, “Once we were on the other side of the river, but now we are on this side.” not many have had this understanding of baptism.
  5. All Christians are familiar with the name Christ, but not many understand the term the mystery of God.
  6. All Christians know that Christ has ascended into heaven and that He is in heaven today. However, not many are familiar with the scene in heaven after Christ's ascension.
  7. All Christians know that God has redeemed us, but not many realize that He has also qualified us to partake of Christ as the portion of the saints.
  8. All Christians realize that Christ was born through incarnation, but not many regard His resurrection also as a birth.
  9. All Christians think that a priest is one who serves God, but not many Christians know that, ultimately, a priest is one who ministers God to man.
  10. Although all genuine Christians recognize that Christ is the Son of God, not many have an adequate realization that He is the embodiment of God.
  11. Although every Christian knows that God is the mighty One on the throne, not many Christians realize that God today needs a temple, a church, a building, for His expression.
  12. Although many are familiar with Joel's prophecy regarding the Holy Spirit, not many have paid attention to the fact that receiving the outpoured Holy Spirit requires our calling on the name of the Lord.
  13. Although many Christians pay attention to gifts, not many concentrate on transformation
  14. Although many Christians realize that Christ is our High Priest, not many know what this truly means.
  15. Although many Christians talk about substitution, about Christ's having died in our place, not many realize the matter of union.
  16. Although many Christians understand the word of grace (Acts 14:3; 20:32), the word of life (Phil. 2:16), and even the good word of God (Heb. 6:5), not many know what the word of righteousness is.
  17. Although many Jews and Seventh-Day Adventists keep the Sabbath, not many know the true significance of keeping a day unto the Lord.
  18. Although the Lord often spoke as a Bridegroom conversing with His bride, not many Christians have realized this aspect of His word.
  19. Although there are millions of Christians in this country, not many have paid adequate attention to Christ in us, the hope of glory.
  20. Although there is much talk about the Body, not many have a proper understanding of the Body. Furthermore, Christians rarely even speak of the one new man.
  21. Among the millions of today's Christians, the genuinely redeemed and saved people, not many enjoy the experience of having become God's habitation.
  22. As far as the experience of the tabernacle is concerned, the writings and messages of the various Christian teachers mainly speak of the altar. But once we go on from the altar to the Holy Place, we find that not many have touched the real experiences there.
  23. As we have seen, the book of Hebrews makes a great turn at 7:1. Not many readers of Hebrews have seen this point clearly, but by God's mercy and grace He has shown us this turn.
  24. Because of shallow, inadequate teaching, not many Christians realize that the redemption of Christ rests upon the power of the eternal Spirit.
  25. Because this revelation is so high and because Paul's writing is complicated, not many Christians have a proper understanding of this book.
  26. Before we consider the matter of putting off the old man and putting on the new man, the church (4:22-24), we need to see that the abolishing of the ordinances for the creation of the new man is part of the gospel. Not many Christians realize that this matter must be proclaimed as part of the gospel.
  27. But have you ever asked the Lord to forgive you for not living by Christ? not many Christians have prayed in this way: “Lord, forgive me for not taking You as my life today.
  28. But what about the second beginning, the beginning related to the building of God's dwelling place? It is a fact that not many Christians realize the need to have this second beginning.
  29. By staying in the homes of many Christians in the course of my travels, I have learned that the appetite of many believers is still for the things of Egypt. Not many have a genuine hunger and thirst for Christ.
  30. During the past centuries, a great many Christians have sought for the overcoming of sin. However, not many of them ever succeeded in this matter because they were seeking something that is on the second floor while they were on the ground floor.
  31. Even at present there are thousands, even millions, of Christians, but not many are strong.
  32. Few Christians have ever fought for the revelation of God, and not many have fought for the revelation of Christ.
  33. Have you ever heard a message on Christ offering Himself to God by and through the eternal Spirit? Christians do not ordinarily speak this way, for not many have this knowledge. Because they do not have the knowledge, they do not use the language of Hebrews 9:14. Nevertheless, such a word is found in Hebrews 9:14.
  34. He mingled divinity and humanity, humanity and divinity, into one. This is our Lord Jesus Christ. Not many Christians have this concept of the Lord Jesus.
  35. However, not many believers realize that the flesh is so evil.
  36. However, not many Christian teachers realize that what is revealed in Romans in the way of a sketch is fully illustrated in 1 Corinthians.
  37. However, not many Christians have observed that in His conversation with Nicodemus the Lord pointed that gentleman to the serpent (John 3:14).
  38. However, not many Christians realize that they are kings by birth.
  39. However, not many Christians today take care of God's house. Most are primarily concerned about their own needs, and the pillar they set up is only a testimony of God's care.
  40. However, not many people, including Christians, know the significance of man's first fall.
  41. However, not many understand the crossing of the river Jordan as having a typological significance.
  42. In 5:26 and 29 there are four crucial words: sanctify, cleanse, nourish, and cherish. Because the enemy has veiled these matters, not many Christians have a clear understanding of their significance.
  43. In Genesis 35 we see a crucial and radical turn. However, not many children of God appreciate this. They read this chapter again and again without recognizing the radical turn contained in it.
  44. In Luke 17, the Lord used Lot's wife as a warning example for His disciples. However, not many Christians today live under this warning.
  45. In most Christian groups there is very little ministry of Christ as life.
  46. In the eyes of God, the ordinances, rituals, and ceremonies of the law have been crucified on the cross. However, not many Christians realize this.
  47. In the same principle, if we would get out of the world, we must get into the wilderness. However, not many Christians have been brought into the wilderness.
  48. In their experience not many Christians have come to the mountain. any of us can testify that before we came into the church life, we were not at the mountain, the place of revelation.
  49. In their experience, not many Christians stay in the house after their conversion.
  50. In their reading of the book of Revelation not many Christians have paid their full attention to the revelation of Christ contained in it.
  51. Jacob is the prototype in the Bible. Romans 9 tells us this. But throughout the generations not many Christians have seen this, thinking that the chapters dealing with Jacob's history are merely interesting stories. Few Christians view these chapters as the record of the model of a transformed life.
  52. Many Christians have sung this hymn, but not many praise their Savior all the day long.
  53. Many Christians know that Christ resurrected, ascended, and has been crowned with honor and glory, but not many know that after Christ's ascension, enthronement, and glorification He also received gifts.
  54. Many Christians know that during the years of wandering in the wilderness, the children of Israel ate manna. But not many of them know in a thorough and adequate way the significance of the manna in Exodus 16.
  55. Many Christians know that on the cross Christ dealt with sin, the flesh, the self, the old man, the world, and the Devil. But not many also realize that on the cross Christ dealt with the ordinances.
  56. Many Christians only experience God as their individual God. Not many have the experience of God as the God of the house of God.
  57. Many Christians realize that Peter and John were disciples and apostles, but not many realize that they were also pillars.
  58. Most believers know that Christ is the heavenly manna; however, not many know how to eat Him.
  59. Most Christians have only the limited experience of Christ as their Redeemer. Not many have the experience of Christ as their life.
  60. Most Christians have the book of Revelation, but not many have the unsealed scroll, because they do not realize that Revelation is the unsealed scroll.
  61. Most Christians realize only that they need Christ as their substitute for redemption. Not many realize that in order to be a living sacrifice to satisfy God, they also need Christ as their substitute in sanctification.
  62. Nearly all Christians have seen the eternal life in John 3:16, but not many have seen the serpent in John 3:14.
  63. Not many Christian preachers have given messages concerning the inward aspect of Christ's sufferings on the cross.
  64. Not many Christians are able to take in God's Word in a proper way or utter it in a strong way.
  65. Not many Christians are willing to pay the price to follow the Lord strictly, because they do not want to suffer in their soul; they want to enjoy their life today, desiring luxurious cars, large houses, and many worldly things. They are unwilling to lose their soul.
  66. Not many Christians have realized the full significance of the budding rod.
  67. Not many Christians have seen that Christ is the place of propitiation.
  68. Not many Christians have seen that God's intention is to work Himself into us.
  69. Not many Christians have seen that the renewing of the new man depends on our seeking the things which are above.
  70. Not many Christians know the goal of God's calling
  71. Not many Christians know the two aspects of Christ's priesthood.
  72. Not many Christians know what the ministry of the stewardship is.
  73. Not many Christians realize that concerning both the giving of the law and the function of the law, there are two aspects, the “day” aspect and the “night” aspect.
  74. Not many Christians realize that even their natural goodness is rejected by God.
  75. Not many Christians regard the lack of prayer as sin.
  76. Not many Christians regard the Lord's coming as a warning.
  77. Not many Christians regard themselves as stewards.
  78. Not many Christians see God's intention in His salvation. To them, salvation consists only in being delivered from hell.
  79. Not many Christians throughout the centuries have been able to get fully into the book of Colossians.
  80. Not many Christians today pay attention to the growth in life.
  81. Not many know the real meaning of the word “blessing.” Many Christians simply have not seen the blessings with which the church has been blessed
  82. Not many ministers or workers in today's Christianity carry out the stewardship of God.
  83. Not many of today's Christians realize what genuine growth is.
  84. Not many readers of Exodus 1 and 2 have seen the underlying theme that links these chapters.
  85. Not many readers of Exodus have given adequate attention to chapter sixteen.
  86. Not many readers of this book have seen that the reconstitution of God's people is implied in chapter sixteen.
  87. Of the many genuine believers in Christ who have drunk of the living water, not many experience the flowing of this water.
  88. On the one hand, the church is constituted of God; on the other hand, the church is expressed in a particular locality. Not many Christian teachers have seen these two aspects of the church.
  89. Our believing in Christ is related to both life and authority. Not many Christians, however, realize that they must believe in the Lord for authority as well as for life.
  90. Out of the tens of millions of Christians in the United States, not many will be overcomers.
  91. So, the number eight signifies resurrection. In this new living, the people were in resurrection. Whatever they did was in resurrection. Not many Christians realize the true significance of the type in this portion of the Word.
  92. Some Christians may cause people to rest and even be refreshed; however, not many can supply others with spiritual food.
  93. That He sends the Spirit, who is just Himself, that He might abide in us and that we might abide in Him; and that Christ is living, moving, and working in our spirit, even transforming our very being that we might be His expression. Although this matter is found again and again in the New Testament, not many Christians pay attention to it.
  94. The curse came in through Adam's fall (Gen. 3:17) and was dealt with by Christ's redemption (Gal. 3:13). Since in the new heaven and new earth there will be no more fall, there will no longer be any curse. Not many Christians understand all that the curse includes.
  95. The Lord Jesus is the real manna. In John 6 He indicates that we should seek Him and eat Him. However, not many Christians realize the need for a change of diet.
  96. The sealing of the Spirit must saturate our mind. Not many Christians have seen that the sealing is still going on, that it is not once for all.
  97. The Spirit is speaking to the churches, not to any religion, denomination, or group of seeking Christians. This is the reason that not many Christians can hear the speaking of the Spirit.
  98. The term “fullness” has been misused, misunderstood, and misapplied by today’s Christians. Thus, when Christians speak of the fullness of Christ, they think it means the riches of Christ. However, although many Christians speak of the fullness of the Holy Spirit or the fullness of God, not many speak of the fullness of Christ.
  99. The words redemption and redeemed are commonly used by Christians. However, not many believers realize adequately that in the sight of God redemption includes three matters. First, it includes (blah……)
  100. Their names will be in the book of life at that time, but the names of many others will not be there. Because not many Christians have seen this vision, they cannot understand the verses concerning this matter.
  101. These two matters, blessing and dwelling, are found in the New Testament Epistles. Probably not many Christians have paid attention to these matters in the Epistles.
  102. Today many Christians know only to pray this kind of shallow prayer. They know only to pray on the basis of the blood of Christ shed on the cross. Not many believers know how to pray the kind of prayer that is offered at the incense altar.
  103. Today, not many Christians care for the inward experience. Most Christians care for the outward experiences. The things that are taught among Christians today mostly go as far as the end of Genesis 14.
  104. We have been selected and called for God's purpose (Rom. 9:11). Not many Christians know what this purpose is.
  105. We have seen that many crucial seeds of the truth are sown in the book of Genesis. The house of God, Bethel, is one of these seeds. However, not many Christians know what the experience of the house of God is.
  106. We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:38 AM   #2
aron
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

Witness Lee knew not to boast too much about how special his ministry was, as that would not look very humble (though sometimes he was compelled to do so, a la Paul in 2 Cor. 12). But what he did an awful lot of was to tell his audience how poverty-stricken everybody else was, by comparison.

It is a zero-sum proposition: if I continually declare how bankrupt everybody else is, then my own stock will rise. Politicians use this tactic as well: they don't say, "Vote for me, I'm a nice, hard-working guy" as much as, "My opponent is a low-life dirt bag." You get the picture, of who's got it and who don't.

Once this humble minister of God left the scene, however, his followers had no compunctions touting "the rich ministry of Witness Lee." Google that phrase and see how many hits you get. All the local church websites were saying this at one point.
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:30 AM   #3
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

I did not find anything wrong over all with the list..pertaining to Christ. I did not read them all I admit but will. I wanted to respond as I may not be back for awhile.

What I realized from the list is the LCrs do not follow that list themselves!!! Their "great high priest" is WL. I am sure there is not one meeting or fellowship home gathering Lee or his ministry is not mentioned.

How sad.

Here is a quick testimony of mine: When I have been down and out I have prayed this prayer: " Lord Jesus. You are my/our Great High Priest. You are the real King Melchesidech (sp?) will You pray for me? As my Intercessor will You intercede for me, please? I do not have the words to pray. Thank You Lord Jesus for listening to the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart. To You be all Praise and Glory and Honor because You alone are WORTHY!"


Blessings and Shalom all,

Carol G
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:34 AM   #4
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

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Originally Posted by aron View Post
Once this humble minister of God left the scene, however, his followers had no compunctions touting "the rich ministry of Witness Lee." Google that phrase and see how many hits you get. All the local church websites were saying this at one point.
That's not true.

They didn't wait until he left the scene.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

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Originally Posted by james73 View Post
After reading just the first few pages of the LSM Life Study of Ephesians, the phrase "Not many Christians know" jumped out at me again and again. I found this quite distasteful (and fueling the fire of the arrogance of my home group) so I did a little research project...
Is he going to have to account for this at the judgment seat of Christ? Is the Lord going to call witness after witness to refute how many Christians taught and did what?

James 3:1 "Be not many teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive greater judgment."
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)

It is obvious that I do not despise knowledge. But I also accept that some kinds of knowledge are not for everybody. For example, I know little or nothing of quantum physics, string theory, Greek philosophy, archeology, calculus, electrical engineering, oil painting (or any painting that is not one color on walls or furniture), and many more. But ask me about international tax, and while I do not know everything, I know a lot.

I'm not sure that having the knowledge that "the redemption of Christ rests upon the power of the eternal Spirit" is something tremendously important. It is very true. But whether or not I know it does not improve my condition.

Reminds of a time at a family reunion when someone suggested that if we improve our lexicon, our experience of Christ will be better. I guffawed openly at that one.

(And I note that such a "lexicon" approach to scripture is probably the reason that most arguments in favor in inerrancy of scripture seem so empty. No matter how many mathematical patterns turn out to look the same up close or far away, the Word of God is not a collection of sayings, but a narrative. It is not a collection of jam-packed words, but descriptive accounts — even Paul's writings.)

I'm not suggesting just remaining totally ignorant of things. But even many of the spiritual things that Paul wrote about were not provided to think about, study, and get really knowledgeable concerning. They were typically existing facts that he provided as the reasons that the audience should act of behave in a different manner. He didn't say to study these premises well and you will become better. He said "this is true, therefore you should do . . . . [whatever]." He didn't say to become crucified with Christ. It doesn't say "you should be crucified with Christ." it says "I am crucified with Christ."

I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:10 PM   #7
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I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?
How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:23 PM   #8
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

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How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.
Now there's an understatement.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by aron View Post
Witness Lee knew not to boast too much about how special his ministry was, as that would not look very humble (though sometimes he was compelled to do so, a la Paul in 2 Cor. 12). But what he did an awful lot of was to tell his audience how poverty-stricken everybody else was, by comparison.

Once this humble minister of God left the scene, ....
Really Aron? Lee humble??
He must have been humble wayyyyy before my time in the LC!!

By mid '75, having been in the LC 6 months, I received "the vision" of the "true church"...the LC. He used a subtle technique of boasting. But by boasting about "God's economy", he drew attention to himself and he knew it. He told us about poor, poor Christianity. He explained the Word as he saw fit. Grant it, he was correct in many respects. But as people began to revere and adulate him, he did not put a stop to it. No one questioned his new version of the bible. Most LCrs today have put their old bibles on dusty filled bookshelves.

He was also not approachable except by his inner circle. How humble is that? at the "trainings", the saints were often afraid of being called to the stage. He often embarrassed and humiliated people

The women were never on equal footage with the men.
Perhaps it has been carried over to this forum as very few women post.

Anyway, How blessed we are to approach the Throne of Love and Grace with a true heart in full assurance of Faith. Without fear of having Communion and fellowship with our Heavenly Father, by the Power of the Word and the Holy Spirit.

Blessings and Joy Aron!!!

Carol
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
How about #1

“That we may be no longer babes tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error.” Not many Christians have paid adequate attention to this verse, a verse which indicates that doctrine can damage the Body of Christ.

Was WL involved in "the wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error"? Surely he had doctrines that damaged the Body of Christ.
There is no better description of all the "moves, flows, and ways" which steadily proceeded out of Taipei and Anaheim over the years than Paul's own words in Ephesians ch. 4. I remember how many times today's "new way" became tomorrow's "old way." Never was this so evident than back in the mid- to late-80's during the time of the infamous "new way." That time was so damaging to the body of Christ.

Those saints who had "connections" in Taiwan would constantly inform us that our "new way" had already become the "old way" because Brother Lee had "moved on." After all, Lee was only "experimenting" in his FTTT "laboratory." The local church would get our latest "new way" either from Cleveland or from a returning local brother, but there was always a saint who would get the newer "new way" via phone call. That one week "lag" made a world of difference as to whether we were "up-to-date" or not with the Lord's "current" move.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:27 PM   #11
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The women were never on equal footage with the men.
Perhaps it has been carried over to this forum as very few women post.
I suspect it is because men are more "ideas" and women are more "feelings", and this forum is pretty much all the former. Forgive me for my broad generalization, which is of course full of exceptions to the rule. Just sharing my observations.

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Anyway, How blessed we are to approach the Throne of Love and Grace with a true heart in full assurance of Faith. Without fear of having Communion and fellowship with our Heavenly Father, by the Power of the Word and the Holy Spirit.

Blessings and Joy Aron!!!

Carol
Mucho blessings back to you, sister cmw, straight from the throne of the Heavenly Father Himself. He loves you that much!
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

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I did note that #16 "Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is" could be argued against the author himself (Lee). After all that we know about DayStar, the LSM bullying of the churches, and the lies that comprise The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, it would seem that Lee did not know what righteousness is. How could he then know that a "word of righteousness" is?
Good point. As Forrest Gump might have put it, "Righteous is as righteous does."

One of the most profound quotes I ever read, from the standpoint of viscerally impacting my central nervous system, was from the first epistle of Paul to the Corinthians. Paul was at this point covering different foods, and then he suddenly said, "We all have knowledge. Knowledge means nothing."

I was blown away, because it was so true. I am (relatively) intelligent, educated, and opinionated, and God was telling me through Paul that all my so-called 'knowledge' was just vapor before Him; just cobwebs and dust. It really shocked me. And it was so incredibly true. It was amazingly profound.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

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Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)

It is obvious that I do not despise knowledge. But I also accept that some kinds of knowledge are not for everybody. For example, I know little or nothing of quantum physics, string theory, Greek philosophy, archeology, calculus, electrical engineering, oil painting (or any painting that is not one color on walls or furniture), and many more. But ask me about international tax, and while I do not know ....

Reminds of a time at a family reunion when someone suggested that if we improve our lexicon, our experience of Christ will be better. I guffawed openly at that one.

(And I note that such a "lexicon" approach to scripture is probably the reason that most arguments in favor in inerrancy of scripture seem so empty. No matter how many mathematical patterns turn out to look the same up close or far away, the Word of God is not a collection of sayings, but a narrative. It is not a collection of jam-packed words, but descriptive accounts — even Paul's writings.)

I'm not suggesting just remaining totally ignorant of things. But even many of the spiritual things that Paul wrote about were not provided to think about, study, and get really knowledgeable concerning. They were typically existing facts that he provided as the reasons that the audience should act of behave in a different manner. He didn't say to study these premises well and you will become better. He said "this is true, therefore you should do . . . . [whatever]." He didn't say to become crucified with Christ. It doesn't say "you should be crucified with Christ." it says "I am crucified with Christ."

I did note that #16 "[COLOR=darkgreen]Although many Christians understand the word of grace . . . not many know what the word of righteousness is
Hi Mike...
Totally respect your post and understand where you are coming from..except on the international tax stuff.

As for the lexicon and scriptural jargon.... The letter does kill!! Haven't we all met people who quote scriptures only to choke the Life out of us? We then meet someone else who shares the same scriptures and suddenly ¥¥ BING¥¥ we GET IT or we are splashed with the WATER of LIFE!!! And we leave so very refreshed!

Just want to share with all, The Holy Spirit of God, Who is ALMIGHTY GOD Himself opened the eyes of my understanding on the Word of Righteousness. In a nutshell, it is Christ Himself and we all know this mentally speaking.

I personally believe it takes the Revelation from the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of Righteousness. Practically speaking however, we all know their are lots of "True Words" spoken by many fine people out there but only ONE is Righteous.

To enter into the Presence of the Word of Righteousness requires us to have a clean heart, a purified mind and the Revelation of the Holy Spirit for He is the One Who reveals Jesus to us, even though He is Christ Jesus in us.

Forgive me if I sound "spiritual". I am not trying to impress anyone. It is just that as I began to speak the Scriptures a few years back, the Lord, the Holy Spirit began to open the eyes of my understanding!

Think about it!? Isn't the entire bible but especially the NT, filled with spiritual jargon? Every book begins and closes glorifying the Lord. Sometimes we read about the Spirit working in us, sometimes "God" is addressed, sometimes it is Christ Jesus.

They are not sermons. The writers are addressing the living saints...and they are all FILLED with the Spirit.

Can I explain it? No. So when I write spiritual words, it is because I DO understand what I am writing!! I am not quoting scriptures! I KNOW I AM crucified with Christ!! I get it!,! TOTALLY!,,

Paul wrote he was a prisoner of Christ. For years that was a scary thought. What connotation does being a prisoner convey? Nothing positive right?

Then a couple of years ago, I GOT IT!,!! What a blessing to be a prisoner of Christ!!!! There is where we are fully protected from all evil!!!! Praise our Awesome Lord and King!!!!

Ok..enough sharing / preaching to the choir!

Blessings and Peace,

Carol
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:16 PM   #14
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

Carol,

Funny thing is that when I think about over-pushing the "spiritual" side of things, I sometimes think of you. Seemingly right at the border at times.

But then you clear it up with posts like that one.

We may know a lot of stuff. We may really understand it. But until the Spirit reveals it, we don't really know it. We have just check-off another box on the
"I believe" list.

And you said that so eloquently.
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:08 PM   #15
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Carol,

Funny thing is that when I think about over-pushing the "spiritual" side of things, I sometimes think of you. Seemingly right at the border at times.

But then you clear it up with posts like that one.

We may know a lot of stuff. We may really understand it. But until the Spirit reveals it, we don't really know it. We have just check-off another box on the
"I believe" list.

And you said that so eloquently.
Well..thanks Mike! Very kind words from you. . I really do have revelation coupled with experience when I share. I never quote scriptures or share on a topic I have not experienced. It may not come across that way but I am trying with the Lord's help of course to express myself without coming across overbearing & over spiritual.

P.S. When I pray...if I am praying solely for worship, it is there I get revelation beyond human understanding. Sometimes when I address the Holy Spirit in prayer for example, I acknowledge Him being the Spirit of Jesus as well as the Spirit of God the Father. So when I Praise and Honor Him for being the Spirit of Jesus, bazingah!! I suddenly get IT!!! And something happens to me. It is as if GOD ushers me into a new and Glorious dimension. That is the reason I sometimes write as I do, coming across unfortunately as being spiritually overbearing. I do not mean to. Honest.

When I pray for earthly needs, and make my requests be made known to the LORD, I thank Him " with a heart filled with gratitude and thanksgiving for receiving the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart (quoting Psalm 19 in my prayer) to the Praise and Glory of His Name.". I really do pray this way.

When I pray with friends, they express their astonishment in a positive way in the way I prayed. I am not trying to impress them. Are you kidding me ?? If I dare go in that direction, I will get a heavenly whipping!! And I w7ill get spanked right then and there. It takes one good whipping and I/ we will never do that again!!! No thank you!

Muchos blessings to you and everyone here.

Carol G
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:17 PM   #16
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Knowing that I will hear from some about "the full knowledge of God" and some other similar verses, the thing about this list that stands out to me is the burning desire of too many people to know a lot of stuff that will not add one bit to their spiritual stature or righteousness, and won't get them even one "star" in their "crown." (No, not one. No, not one.)
Yup, perfect, nail on the head there. It's just empty calories, sugar. And the reward, the sugar high, is the puffed up pride, the feel-good from being one of the few "in the know".

Aron related Lee's style to a politician - to me, it's more a small-time broker trying to convince people to buy gold NOW ("not many people know that the gold price is linked to x, y, z etc etc").

Yes, it inflates the speaker by deceitfully claiming common knowledge as one's own authority. But it also inflates and flatters the listener as being one let in on a secret, as being special, as being "chosen". Sound familiar? It's security, ego and one-upmanship, packaged in a socially-acceptable form... like cigarettes in the 1950s.

LSM is Christianity with a dopamine rush. That's why it's so addictive and hard to leave.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:44 AM   #17
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There is no better description of all the "moves, flows, and ways" which steadily proceeded out of Taipei and Anaheim over the years than Paul's own words in Ephesians ch. 4. I remember how many times today's "new way" became tomorrow's "old way." Never was this so evident than back in the mid- to late-80's during the time of the infamous "new way." That time was so damaging to the body of Christ.

Those saints who had "connections" in Taiwan would constantly inform us that our "new way" had already become the "old way" because Brother Lee had "moved on." After all, Lee was only "experimenting" in his FTTT "laboratory." The local church would get our latest "new way" either from Cleveland or from a returning local brother, but there was always a saint who would get the newer "new way" via phone call. That one week "lag" made a world of difference as to whether we were "up-to-date" or not with the Lord's "current" move.
So then, you agree with WL that not many Christians had paid adequate attention, the LRC proves his point. The insight of a scam artist.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:27 AM   #18
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So then, you agree with WL that not many Christians had paid adequate attention, the LRC proves his point. The insight of a scam artist.
The genius of the LRC scam is the amount of energy it expends pointing out how everyone else is inadequate. "Not many Christians" pay adequate attention, have sufficient understanding, have proper practice, etc, etc, etc. Once you have thoroughly exposed the inadequacy of everyone else, this (purportedly) does two things: 1. it "inoculates" you against the same errors; and 2. it leaves you alone before God as the pure remnant. Any similarities which the LRC might then share with "Babylon" and "Egypt" are thought to be incidental and minor.

Neither of the assumed results are correct. The poison of the tree of knowledge is "subtle" that your eyes are indeed opened, and you do see "into darkness". Perhaps it is indeed true that "not many" Christians seek after God, pray all day, etc. But your spiritual eyesight is always distorted: the darkness/failure/shame of the other party always seems magnified and your own faults seem less significant (Matt 7:3-5; Luke 18:10-14). It is a poisoned vision; better to just say "I am blind" and ask God for mercy, and salve.

Indeed, "Many are called and few (i.e. not many) are chosen" But that sorting process is the task of the Bema, the Judgment Seat; it is not our job as fellow sinners. Any movement built on sorting the few "saints" from the many "Christians" is really built on sand.

Yes, we bought into it. WL's gospel really did make us feel special, to incessantly hear how "poor" everyone else was. But really that buying into a scam is not really so shocking, is it? Look at the disciples. How often did you see them jockeying among themselves for special, privileged position? Why wouldn't someone who came along with a "special" gospel find ears to hear?
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:54 AM   #19
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The genius of the LRC scam is the amount of energy it expends pointing out how everyone else is inadequate. "Not many Christians" pay adequate attention, have sufficient understanding, have proper practice, etc, etc, etc. Once you have thoroughly exposed the inadequacy of everyone else, this (purportedly) does two things: 1. it "inoculates" you against the same errors; and 2. it leaves you alone before God as the pure remnant. Any similarities which the LRC might then share with "Babylon" and "Egypt" are thought to be incidental and minor.

Neither of the assumed results are correct. The poison of the tree of knowledge is "subtle" that your eyes are indeed opened, and you do see "into darkness". Perhaps it is indeed true that "not many" Christians seek after God, pray all day, etc. But your spiritual eyesight is always distorted: the darkness/failure/shame of the other party always seems magnified and your own faults seem less significant (Matt 7:3-5; Luke 18:10-14). It is a poisoned vision; better to just say "I am blind" and ask God for mercy, and salve.

Indeed, "Many are called and few (i.e. not many) are chosen" But that sorting process is the task of the Bema, the Judgment Seat; it is not our job as fellow sinners. Any movement built on sorting the few "saints" from the many "Christians" is really built on sand.

Yes, we bought into it. WL's gospel really did make us feel special, to incessantly hear how "poor" everyone else was. But really that buying into a scam is not really so shocking, is it? Look at the disciples. How often did you see them jockeying among themselves for special, privileged position? Why wouldn't someone who came along with a "special" gospel find ears to hear?
The idea that there are immature Christians is not shocking at all. What would be shocking is if these ones who were formerly tossed about with every wave of doctrine grew from the experience and helped inoculate the Body of Christ. It would be as though WL was used to further God's purpose. That would be liking saying that the book of Job reveals God building a man.
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:57 AM   #20
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The idea that there are immature Christians is not shocking at all. What would be shocking is if these ones who were formerly tossed about with every wave of doctrine grew from the experience and helped inoculate the Body of Christ. It would be as though WL was used to further God's purpose. That would be liking saying that the book of Job reveals God building a man.
I love my journey, failures and all, and wouldn't trade it with anyone. "Peter, you will indeed fail. But I have prayed for you, and when you turn, then you will be able to strengthen the brothers."
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:43 PM   #21
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Thanks for sharing all those excerpts James. When you hear something repeatedly, you're going to believe it. In this case in the Recovery when you hear repeatedly how in Christianity "not many Christians know", you will have bought into the mantra "we in the Recovery have all the riches and those in Christianity have nothing".
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:27 PM   #22
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Thanks for sharing all those excerpts James. When you hear something repeatedly, you're going to believe it. In this case in the Recovery when you hear repeatedly how in Christianity "not many Christians know", you will have bought into the mantra "we in the Recovery have all the riches and those in Christianity have nothing".
What we have all discovered is that The "deep truths" Lee supposedly taught are all in the bible. God's Eternal Purpose or God's economy are in there. Lee may have delved into these scriptures and topics but he twisted them and used them as a means to make the saints think his church, his flock was the real church, a cut above the rest of Christianity.

He also failed to believe and acknowledge God was revealing His Word and other aspects of the Word to other sons of God not part of Lee's flock.

I do not take away from Lee what the Spirit revealed to him..and pass to us. (To say I learned nothing positive from Lee's teachings while in the LC is not true! I was there for a season and hard as it was to leave, I made it out. Thank God!)

What I don't get is why he did not practice what he taught us from the Word. He was extremely controlling while conveying to us to walk in the Spirit. Actually he did not teach us to walk in Spirit did he? He taught us to "exercise your spirit".
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:24 AM   #23
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Witness Lee knew a lot of minor details that, as OBW said, don't amount to much. At the same time he was flat-out wrong about some central issues that amount to major errors. For example, teaching:
  • Our souls get saturated and constituted with the element of God. No evidence of this. Simply the wrong focus.
  • There is difference between Christ as life and Christ as "your person." If Christ is life how can this be?
  • Our focus should be "building the Church." Results in valuing institutions above people. If we should focus on building up anything it should be "each other."
  • One global work with one publication. Results in entrenched, corrupt hierarchy.
  • We are "becoming God." No comment necessary.
  • Many other examples too numerous to list.

In short, Lee, by his attention to nit-picky "most-don't-know" doctrines, strained gnats; and by his whopper-sized doctrinal errors, swallowed camels.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:33 AM   #24
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In the end, Lee just wanted to be different, yet he wanted everyone to be like him.

He taught others to totally conform to his teachings, while he himself delighted in coming up with novel ways to interpret the Bible which he could wave like flags of uniqueness and superiority over others.

He taught that heroes of "the Recovery" stepped outside of "poor Christianity," yet he vilified anyone who practiced the same instinct toward recovery by stepping outside of his teachings.

I'm sorry, but that's just crazy. It really is.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:56 AM   #25
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He taught that heroes of "the Recovery" stepped outside of "poor Christianity," yet he vilified anyone who practiced the same instinct toward recovery by stepping outside of his teachings.
Another thing I noticed, in hindsight (years after leaving) was that WL extolled the "heroes of Recovery" who stepped outside of "poor Christianity", yet he wouldn't have anything to do with their spiritual heirs.

To me that's like saying, "I loved Joe Jones, may he rest in peace. I hate his wife, kids, cousins, uncles, parents and friends. But I really loved Joe Jones".

And didn't Jesus say something about the hypocrites whose ancestors murdered the prophets, and who then build tombs for them?
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Old 06-28-2013, 11:00 AM   #26
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teaching:
  • Our focus should be "building the Church." Results in valuing institutions above people. If we should focus on building up anything it should be "each other."
Ultimately, "love the Church" overturned "love your neighbor". If your neighbor wasn't "for the church" you could throw him/her under the bus.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:54 PM   #27
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Ultimately, "love the Church" overturned "love your neighbor". If your neighbor wasn't "for the church" you could throw him/her under the bus.
Let's rephrase that to say:

"love the ministry" overturned "love your neigbor. If your neighbor wasn't "for the ministry" you could throw him/her under the bus.

The ministry became the conditional basis for loving. If you love the ministry, then we as lovers of the ministry love you. If you don't love the ministry, you are not deemed profitable to spend time with.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:56 PM   #28
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Let's rephrase that to say:

"love the ministry" overturned "love your neigbor. If your neighbor wasn't "for the ministry" you could throw him/her under the bus.

The ministry became the conditional basis for loving. If you love the ministry, then we as lovers of the ministry love you. If you don't love the ministry, you are not deemed profitable to spend time with.
The nail has been squarely hit on the head! My wife and I both felt this the moment I made a comment in one of the meetings about how I didn't quite agree with how the ministry viewed Psalms. Everyone looked up from their outlines. I was told I just didn't see what everyone else apparently "SAW" by having just read (once) the outline or life study or ministry book we were reading at the time. My "church life" since then has definitely lacked the shepherding LCers are so fond of. I think for the most part, at least among many of the brothers and sisters around my age, I've been written off, tolerated because I've been around a lot longer than them.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:51 PM   #29
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The nail has been squarely hit on the head! My wife and I both felt this the moment I made a comment in one of the meetings about how I didn't quite agree with how the ministry viewed Psalms. Everyone looked up from their outlines. I was told I just didn't see what everyone else apparently "SAW" by having just read (once) the outline or life study or ministry book we were reading at the time. My "church life" since then has definitely lacked the shepherding LCers are so fond of. I think for the most part, at least among many of the brothers and sisters around my age, I've been written off, tolerated because I've been around a lot longer than them.
Yup- me too! Written off is right - I was actually "quarantined" in the small group last night to the naughty table for precisely this sin - constant questioning LSM and our group's insistence on reading only Witness Lee. We had a promising "New One" in the group, so I guess they didn't want me polluting him or pointing out the nonsense.

Here's how it went down: "Hmm, tonight we will try something new, we will break into even smaller groups... let's see.. hmm, brother James, hey, why don't you sit over here with me, while the others can share over there".

It was a strange meeting: some invisible "leading ones" had apparently decided that beforehand we would read and "fellowship" on John 2, 1-18.

The thing is, there's nothing else to share on John 2 once someone has bashed it over the head with a LifeStudy. I felt like I was a slow student in a math class. "And James, the significance of the THIRD day is?" "And James, the water represents?" "And James, do you know why there were six jars?" "And James, so that means Christ is....?" (the hypotenuse? the tangent? I dunno, I'm not getting it. Oh LIFE, of course, yes, life.... groan)

That was on my table with the elder and his wife, I am sure the New One in the free group had a different experience; I am sure the Life Study was concealed within smartphones, it just seemed like all these people were having great revelation from the common bible story of turning water into wine. "Not many Christians know the significance of the water into wine" haha. Perhaps that explains the tortured manipulation of the group into reading that bible section that night, totally out of the blue, so they could impress the New One.

The thing is, I would probably find it funny, I would just leave them to it, but for this horrible feeling that "they are the only church". It reminds me of a joke by Zizek: a guy starts to believe he has turned into a seed, a piece of grain, and nothing can convince him otherwise. So he is hospitalized, and many doctors and psychologists work on him until he is eventually cured. And he is going to leave the hospital when he comes running back in. "I can't go out there," he says. "There's a chicken! It will eat me!" "Come on," says the doctor. "You're cured, you're a man now, you're not a seed any more." And the man says "Yes, I know! But does the chicken know that?"

I can leave, because I know it's not the genuine church - but do they know that? I don't want people praying for me, that I've fallen into Satan's clutches. I'm actually afraid of those prayers, as nonsensical as it sounds.
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Old 06-29-2013, 05:07 AM   #30
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The nail has been squarely hit on the head! My wife and I both felt this the moment I made a comment in one of the meetings about how I didn't quite agree with how the ministry viewed Psalms. Everyone looked up from their outlines. I was told I just didn't see what everyone else apparently "SAW" by having just read (once) the outline or life study or ministry book we were reading at the time. My "church life" since then has definitely lacked the shepherding LCers are so fond of. I think for the most part, at least among many of the brothers and sisters around my age, I've been written off, tolerated because I've been around a lot longer than them.
"Didn't quite agree"? Let your yay be yay and nay be nay, you might not get a second chance to speak.
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Old 06-29-2013, 06:17 AM   #31
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Yup- me too! Written off is right - I was actually "quarantined" in the small group last night to the naughty table for precisely this sin - constant questioning LSM and our group's insistence on reading only Witness Lee. We had a promising "New One" in the group, so I guess they didn't want me polluting him or pointing out the nonsense.

Here's how it went down: "Hmm, tonight we will try something new, we will break into even smaller groups... let's see.. hmm, brother James, hey, why don't you sit over here with me, while the others can share over there".

It was a strange meeting: some invisible "leading ones" had apparently decided that beforehand we would read and "fellowship" on John 2, 1-18.

The thing is, there's nothing else to share on John 2 once someone has bashed it over the head with a LifeStudy. I felt like I was a slow student in a math class. "And James, the significance of the THIRD day is?" "And James, the water represents?" "And James, do you know why there were six jars?" "And James, so that means Christ is....?" (the hypotenuse? the tangent? I dunno, I'm not getting it. Oh LIFE, of course, yes, life.... groan)

That was on my table with the elder and his wife, I am sure the New One in the free group had a different experience; I am sure the Life Study was concealed within smartphones, it just seemed like all these people were having great revelation from the common bible story of turning water into wine. "Not many Christians know the significance of the water into wine" haha. Perhaps that explains the tortured manipulation of the group into reading that bible section that night, totally out of the blue, so they could impress the New One.

The thing is, I would probably find it funny, I would just leave them to it, but for this horrible feeling that "they are the only church". It reminds me of a joke by Zizek: a guy starts to believe he has turned into a seed, a piece of grain, and nothing can convince him otherwise. So he is hospitalized, and many doctors and psychologists work on him until he is eventually cured. And he is going to leave the hospital when he comes running back in. "I can't go out there," he says. "There's a chicken! It will eat me!" "Come on," says the doctor. "You're cured, you're a man now, you're not a seed any more." And the man says "Yes, I know! But does the chicken know that?"

I can leave, because I know it's not the genuine church - but do they know that? I don't want people praying for me, that I've fallen into Satan's clutches. I'm actually afraid of those prayers, as nonsensical as it sounds.
Hey Hermano and amigo in Christ.

The LORD did not impart in you a spirit of FEAR!!! Isn't He, Who is inside of you, living, operating and guiding you in all TRUTH, THIS ALMIGHTY GOD, mucho mas greater than those manipulative and controlling people?

Take FIRM hold of the WORD dear man !!! Is the LORD wanting you to be guided by THEM or by HIM?

Are you at peace and happy and FREE around these people?

If you are then keep hanging around them. If they are sucking the life and Love out of you, if they are stealing the joy of the Lord from you, take a leap of Faith! God will make a way for you to escape their clutches. Not only that, He will envelop you with the inner peace that surpasses all understanding.

Listen and Obey the leading of the Holy Spirit in you!! Remember too..walk in FAITH. You will be rewarded. God is a Rewarder of those who Diligently seek HIM!!! Whose reward and approval are you seeking? Theirs or GOD'S?

Read Revelation 2 and 3 but not from the RcV. Figure out which of the 7 churches the LC falls into. Keep in mind there are only 2 churches the LORD commends. He rebukes the other 5!

May the God of Peace and the GOD of LOVE give you the courage, strength and LIGHT you need to be strong in power and in might..the power and might of the Holy Spirit working in you.

Blessings...
Carol Garza
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:40 PM   #32
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"Didn't quite agree"? Let your yay be yay and nay be nay, you might not get a second chance to speak.
Don't worry, my "didn't quite agree" was my initial attempt at entering the supposed fellowship gently. As eyebrows squinched and mouths began to frown I was able to elaborate how much I disagree. At the end I was told I just don't see what everyone else sees. I said that's because it's not there. And that was that. I've changed home meetings to one where we just read the Word. What a novel idea.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:08 PM   #33
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Hey Hermano and amigo in Christ.

The LORD did not impart in you a spirit of FEAR!!! Isn't He, Who is inside of you, living, operating and guiding you in all TRUTH, THIS ALMIGHTY GOD, mucho mas greater than those manipulative and controlling people?

Are you at peace and happy and FREE around these people?
Aha, yes thank-you Carol for pointing this out! What am I afraid of? Nothing! The Lord is my Shepherd! But I needed someone to tell me that again, thanks!

Being at peace, happy and free around those people requires a Harry Houdini-like skill, or zen patience, or should I say the love of Jesus Christ? But as one Christian I met from China put it: "you'd hope you wouldn't have to practice Christian forbearance too much with your church".

Anyway. It's Lord's Day, or as they say in France, dimanche... the sun is shining, it's a holiday weekend and God's creation awaits
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:21 PM   #34
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Aha, yes thank-you Carol for pointing this out! What am I afraid of? Nothing! The Lord is my Shepherd! But I needed someone to tell me that again, thanks!

Being at peace, happy and free around those people requires a Harry Houdini-like skill, or zen patience, or should I say the love of Jesus Christ? But as one Christian I met from China put it: "you'd hope you wouldn't have to practice Christian forbearance too much with your church".

Anyway. It's Lord's Day, or as they say in France, dimanche... the sun is shining, it's a holiday weekend and God's creation awaits
I left out another piece of very important information for you James...and now 2!

In your previous post you mentioned being afraid of their prayers. Think about that...do you think GOD cannot say NO to their prayers? The only prayers He receives are prayers from and in SPIRIT.

Do not let the tone they use when they pray or "prophesy" as the Spirit coming forth from them. Remember Cain and Abel. Both worshipped God but God only received Abel's worship. Do you think Jesus used that tone when praying?

If they are praying to hold you captive by praying you see "the church" or whatever it is they are praying about, if it is not for you to be drawn closer to the LORD, your Creator or for Him to bless you, He is going to count their prayers as dung.

Remember what Jesus said to those who "prophesied" in His Name and cast out demons IN HIS NAME...not buddah's or Allah's name but in the Name of Jesus. He told them He never knew them, that they were workers of iniquity.

Furthermore..if you are afraid of their prayers tells me there is a spirit of witchcraft in that congregation.

Strong words?

Google "witchcraft in the church". Don't think you will read about ugly women on broomsticks, voodo magic and the like... Do a study on Jezebel...

Also do a search on "the transfer of spirits".

You also gave me a clue you are still very bound. That clue was "The Lord's Day"... Afraid of saying Sunday? Who told you not to say Sunday? The Spirit or the LSM?

I left the LC a couple of weeks after we were told not to refer to the "Lord's day" as Sunday.

What??? I thought? Everday is THE LORD's day. And if by saying Sunday is a pagan day..so is Monday - Saturday and January - December. Research where those names came from.

And finally a short story/experience I had a couple of years ago, an LSM sister came to visit "me" ..really though, the LSM churches in Texas. I drove her to a meeting hall. I found it so strange and unsettling to see nothing but LSM materials. Overkill.

Then as everyone was heading out someone suggested calling on the Lord. You know.." Oh Lord Jeeezus". I refused. I did not want that spirit to get on me!! Took me long enough to get set free from their grip. I did not make a scene. I stood around them but refused to participate in their mantra chant.

Do I address our Lord Jesus in prayer or just to make sure He is with me keeping the demons at bay? You bet I do! I say "Praise You Lord Jesus" alot and when my thoughts start going to places they should not go, I simply say "Lord Jesus. Forgive me for going there." When I misplace something I say "Holy Spirit. Help me find my keys etc..". I tell you the truth 9.9 out of ten, I find the object in less than 10 seconds!! And I always thank Him.

So Cover yourself in the Blood of Jesus everyday for Jesus came to set the captives free. Praise Him, Bless Him, Glorify Him, and Thank Him for Jesus, our Precious Lord Jesus came that you would have Life in abundance, to renew your mind in Christ Jesus..to have the Mind of Christ, not the mind of WL and the LSM.

Shalom!

PS...Ask the Holy Spirit to surround you with strong, level headed, Spirit filled GOOD friends outside the LSM realm.

Carol G
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:29 PM   #35
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Saw this today from HWFMR:

"According to the entire revelation of the New Testament, the unique goal of the Christian work should be the New Jerusalem, which is the ultimate goal of God’s eternal economy....Today among Christians in general, nearly no one has a proper goal. They pursue being spiritual, being holy, preaching the gospel to win souls, and establishing seminaries to teach theology and the Bible, yet hardly anyone can say that they are doing these things with the goal of consummating the New Jerusalem."

In tune with this thread it is safe to say "not many Christians know" what the proper goal is.

Hypothetically, suppose LSM had done their research, had fellowship with every Christian assembly, and validated "nearly no one has proper goal" in regard to the New Jerusalem. Does "the end justify the means" by purging out anyone who questions "the ministry"?

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Old 07-01-2013, 07:34 PM   #36
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Saw this today from HWFMR:

"According to the entire revelation of the New Testament, the unique goal of the Christian work should be the New Jerusalem, which is the ultimate goal of God’s eternal economy....Today among Christians in general, nearly no one has a proper goal. They pursue being spiritual, being holy, preaching the gospel to win souls, and establishing seminaries to teach theology and the Bible, yet hardly anyone can say that they are doing these things with the goal of consummating the New Jerusalem."

In tune with this thread it is safe to say "not many Christians know" what the proper goal is.
It's just amazing the stuff they dream up on La Palma.

Only LSM can criticize the entire body of Christ for doing all the right things, and only LSM can completely justify themselves while doing none of the right things.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:16 PM   #37
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It's just amazing the stuff they dream up on La Palma.

Only LSM can criticize the entire body of Christ for doing all the right things, and only LSM can completely justify themselves while doing none of the right things.
If I did not know any better, "not many Christians know" the emphasize on knowledge propagated by LSM. For years I could not quite put my finger on what was lacking in the LSM/LC system; humility and love.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:52 PM   #38
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For years I could not quite put my finger on what was lacking in the LSM/LC system; humility and love.
What he said.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:54 PM   #39
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This thread might have been more accurately titled "106 things you don't need to waste your brain power on but we are going to tell you anyway."

Not complaining about James or the thread. Just the nonsense that Lee, the LRC, the LSM, and the BBs have perpetuated.

In simplistic terms, the 106 items actually belong in two groups:
"## things that aren't really true but we are going to claim to be true and we will feel better about ourselves for believing it."

"## things that everyone else already knows, although possibly using different terms, but we are going to claim they don't and (you guessed it) we will feel better about ourselves for believing it."
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Old 07-03-2013, 09:05 PM   #40
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Furthermore..if you are afraid of their prayers tells me there is a spirit of witchcraft in that congregation.
On this, I must say, absolutely not. There is a strong sense of manipulation, yes, but claiming witchcraft is well off the mark. I know Carol's message is meant very well, but I am alarmed that my comments about my group have amplified into such strong comments, and I think several in my group would be very upset to read that.

Would you consider removing that part of the comment? I know it's a lot to ask, but it's not a pleasant accusation to make of a specific group. Certainly we can take it to a new thread and make it a general discussion, but when a specific congregation is discussed I feel it's wrong. They are good people (can't believe I just said that, rolling eyes... but they are, take away the manipulation, pride and arrogance, judgmental distrust, closed minded ignorance and sneaky behavior... ). And I'm not "brainwashed" into saying that, I can see their faults, I just don't want them dragged through THAT particular mud in a public forum, because it's a small group and it could be construed as personal. It is also faintly ridiculous and might damage any chance of a sensible discussion with the people involved - after all, I'm hanging around in order to love and help the group, not to banish them or see if they float on water.

Anyway hope that makes sense and thanks again Carol for the support

James

PS I just read one of the google results from Carol's suggestion, where it says "witchcraft" really is just "mind control". On this, I would agree. Prayers at the LC in HK are for the group's will, not God's will. But I just wanted to make clear there was no "black magic" involved in LC in HK, because where I come from "witchcraft" means pointy hats etc. In which case I withdraw my request for Carol to edit her post, although still ask that any discussion on this proceed with caution
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:58 AM   #41
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On this, I must say, absolutely not. There is a strong sense of manipulation, yes, but claiming witchcraft is well off the mark. I know Carol's message is meant very well, but I am alarmed that my comments about my group have amplified into such strong comments, and I think several in my group would be very upset to read that.

Would you consider removing that part of the comment? I know it's a lot to ask, but it's not a pleasant accusation to make of a specific group. Certainly we can take it to a new thread and make it a general discussion, but when a specific congregation is discussed I feel it's wrong. They are good people (can't believe I just said that, rolling eyes... but they are, take away the manipulation, pride and arrogance, judgmental distrust, closed minded ignorance and sneaky behavior... ). And I'm not "brainwashed" into saying that, I can see their faults, I just don't want them dragged through THAT particular mud in a public forum, because it's a small group and it could be construed as personal. It is also faintly ridiculous and might damage any chance of a sensible discussion with the people involved - after all, I'm hanging around in order to love and help the group, not to banish them or see if they float on water.

Anyway hope that makes sense and thanks again Carol for the support

James

PS I just read one of the google results from Carol's suggestion, where it says "witchcraft" really is just "mind control". On this, I would agree. Prayers at the LC in HK are for the group's will, not God's will. But I just wanted to make clear there was no "black magic" involved in LC in HK, because where I come from "witchcraft" means pointy hats etc. In which case I withdraw my request for Carol to edit her post, although still ask that any discussion on this proceed with caution

Thanks for searching the meaning of witchcraft as I suggested James. I did not want to get into a heated debate. To be absolutely clear, I was not referring to the 'Harry Potter' type of witchcraft.

Because I was a person who was easily controlled and manipulated then suffered severe emotional and spiritual setbacks, I prayerfully asked the LORD to help me understand why I attracted these types of people and how to stop doing this! It was a vicious cycle with me. I finally got it! And I was set free. The Power of the Word of God and the Blood of the Lamb delivered me! But I did a lot of soul searching.

For starters, I was raised in the RCC. The Catholic church teaches they are the "one true church". That is their way of controlling the congregants. It is the way they keep people from leaving the RCC. They put fear into people making them think something bad will happen to them if they leave. (And btw, many people who have left the RCC are returning to it).

From there, I went into the LC. Yes I became born Again through the ministry of the Word to me by the LCrs and was helped immensely to read and study the Word on topics of Sanctification and the Blood of Jesus (God Bless them!) before the adulation of WL was manifested. But the LC became no different than the RCC. It controlled people. People struggle to leave it's clutches because they fear there is 'nothing better' out there for them.

Truly they have forgotten God's promise He will NEVER leave us or forsake us and that Jesus came so we would have LIFE and have it in abundance. Not only the LIFE of Christ that will keep us from going to hell and take us to heaven, but that we would live Life to the fullest here on earth to His Glory and Praise so we can walk and live as Ambassadors of Christ bringing more people into the Kingdom.

The book of Revelation refers to the RCC as the Thyatira church.

This is the complaint the LORD has against this church: You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray.

The RCC is under a principality called Jezebel who controlled her husband Ahab and put her fear into Elijah so much so he wanted to die!

Here is 1 Kings 19:1-4
When Ahab got home, he told Jezebel everything Elijah had done, including the way he had killed all the prophets of Baal. 2 So Jezebel sent this message to Elijah: “May the gods strike me and even kill me if by this time tomorrow I have not killed you just as you killed them.”

3 Elijah was afraid and fled for his life. He went to Beersheba, a town in Judah, and he left his servant there. 4 Then he went on alone into the wilderness, traveling all day. He sat down under a solitary broom tree and prayed that he might die. “I have had enough, Lord,” he said. “Take my life, for I am no better than my ancestors who have already died.”


The premise of this account is that Elijah who was filled with the Spirit of God so much so he was raptured ( 2 Kings 2:11) As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a chariot of fire appeared, drawn by horses of fire. It drove between the two men, separating them, and Elijah was carried by a whirlwind into heaven....feared this controlling person to the point he wanted to die.

This is what religious people who claim to be doing the Lord's work do to people...they put fear into them.


Here is an exerpt from a book called: Confronting Jezebel by Steve Sampson
"Two things have always plagued the church:

Control and the desire to dominate.

This power has always divided and short-circuited the power of the church.
The desire to control and dominate if not mastered can lead to witchcraft, since witchcraft is nothing more than illegitimately controlling the will of another person.

Witchcraft which is the work of the flesh (Galatians 5:20) manifests in 3 ways:
Manipulation --- intimidation --- and domination.

The reason the desire to control is akin to witchcraft is that it is total contradiction to the Nature of God Himself. The irrevocable gift of God gave to mankind is that of free will.
God Himself refuses to violate His Gift of free will to us. He leaves it up to us to choose HIS Way. " _Steve Sampson - Confronting Jezebel_

Here are some of the characteristics of the Jezebel spirit listed in Steve's book:

* Refuses to admit guilt or wrong.

* Takes credit for everything.

* Ignores people ( This tactic is frequently used by leaders when someone does not agree with their plans and they isolate the person by ignoring him, choosing not even to talk to him. Some in these situations have been ignored for months simply because they chose not to be a puppet and say yes to every idea or whim. This puts the person out of the leader's grace and forces him to either "come around" to the leader's way of thinking or be indefinitely ignored. One is not free to disagree with a controller. Steve's insert)

* never gives credit or shows gratitude. [except to Nee and Lee-my insert]

* criticizes everyone. (poor-poor christianity-my insert]

There are other characteristics on the list but they are not as pertinent imho to the controlling features of the LC and many church organizations.

Thanks again for doing some research James! And Thanks to all who read my post. I hope many found it useful. We are all on the same team folks...Glorifying our Creator through our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit Who empowers us and fills us with God's Perfect Love, Truth, Joy and Peace.

Blessings, Joy and Peace to you my friend in Christ,

Carol Garza
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Old 07-05-2013, 10:50 AM   #42
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_Steve Sampson - Confronting Jezebel_

Here are some of the characteristics of the Jezebel spirit listed in Steve's book:

* Refuses to admit guilt or wrong.

* Takes credit for everything.

* Ignores people.

* never gives credit or shows gratitude.

* criticizes everyone.
I find bullet point 3 interesting: "ignores people". On the one hand the apostle John didn't ignore the church in Thyatira. He wrote them a letter, too. But he did threaten to "ignore" Ephesus, in a way: "Unless you repent I will come and remove your lampstand from its place" (Rev 2:5).

So at what point do we ignore someone? The only guideline I can think of is the one Jesus gave in Matt. 18: going privately, then with another, then "telling it to the church" and considering that person "as a pagan or a tax collector" (NIV).

There is a famous apocryphal story of the apostle John. He was walking down the street and a man he didn't like was coming toward him. John crossed the street in order to avoid talking to him. The man, bothered, also crossed the street and hailed John. "Don't you recognize me?"

John replied, "Yes; I recognize you as the spawn of Satan."

Another story from Irenaus has John in the public baths with his disciples. A man with whom he disagreed (Cerinthus) entered. John cried out, "Quick, let us leave! Perhaps the wrath of God will send the roof tumbling down on this place, and we will perish alongside this person!"

So ignoring isn't necessarily unchristian. Certainly the LC system of "rebellions", "storms", and "quarantines" certainly strains the notion, though. Maybe one could reword it to say, "Ignores all people who don't do exactly as you say", which in WL's system would consist of all unbelievers, all non-LC believers, and all LC believers who don't seem sufficiently compliant.

At some point when you "ignore" everybody except your tiny fringe sect, the light might go on and you realize that by cutting everybody else off, you have effectively cut yourself off. There is some indication that at the end WL realized this and repented.

His system, however, seems to have continued unabated. One could argue that the system itself is built on "ignoring everybody else", and were they to really end that self-imposed isolation, it would be like Gorbachev allowing "perestroika" reforms: next thing you know people are pouring through the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union is dissolved.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:32 PM   #43
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I find bullet point 3 interesting: "ignores people".
So at what point do we ignore someone? The only guideline I can think of is the one Jesus gave in Matt. 18: going privately, then with another, then "telling it to the church" and considering that person "as a pagan or a tax collector" (NIV).
When I think of "ignores people", in text of LC North American history I think of the so-called storms of 1990 and 2005. The brothers from Raleigh that reached out to brother Lee for fellowship were ignored. Such as was the same for midwest localities that reached out to LSM for fellowship around 2005. They too were ignored.
A brother in Christ who has been living with my family when speaking of the past I refer to being ignored as an unwillingness to respond defensively. Concerns by saints, by localities are received as an attack. As such there is no heart to receive concerns as a need to bridge through fellowship in mutuality.
I see the need of ignoring people a result of "If you do good to those who do good to you" (reference Luke 6:33). When a segment of the Body is perceived as not doing good to you, because issues over concerns are raised, you ignore these vital members of the Body. However if some one is doing good to you (Hank Hannegraff and CRI), you acknowledge them.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:55 PM   #44
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I find bullet point 3 interesting: "ignores people". On the one hand the apostle John didn't ignore the church in Thyatira. He wrote them a letter, too. But he did threaten to "ignore" Ephesus, in a way: "Unless you repent I will come and remove your lampstand from its place" (Rev 2:5).

So at what point do we ignore someone? The only guideline I can think of is the one Jesus gave in Matt. 18: going privately, then with another, then "telling it to the church" and considering that person "as a pagan or a tax collector" (NIV).

There is a famous apocryphal story of the apostle John. He was walking down the street and a man he didn't like was coming toward him. John crossed the street in order to avoid talking to him. The man, bothered, also crossed the street and hailed John. "Don't you recognize me?"

John replied, "Yes; I recognize you as the spawn of Satan."

Another story from Irenaus has John in the public baths with his disciples. A man with whom he disagreed (Cerinthus) entered. John cried out, "Quick, let us leave! Perhaps the wrath of God will send the roof tumbling down on this place, and we will perish alongside this person!"

So ignoring isn't necessarily unchristian. Certainly the LC system of "rebellions", "storms", and "quarantines" certainly strains the notion, though. Maybe one could reword it to say, "Ignores all people who don't do exactly as you say", which in WL's system would consist of all unbelievers, all non-LC believers, and all LC believers who don't seem sufficiently compliant.

At some point when you "ignore" everybody except your tiny fringe sect, the light might go on and you realize that by cutting everybody else off, you have effectively cut yourself off. There is some indication that at the end WL realized this and repented.

His system, however, seems to have continued unabated. One could argue that the system itself is built on "ignoring everybody else", and were they to really end that self-imposed isolation, it would be like Gorbachev allowing "perestroika" reforms: next thing you know people are pouring through the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union is dissolved.
Hi Aron,
Let me clarify the bullet points..wspecially the one you pointed out. Each bullet had an explanation. I did not include the explanations. But everything I referred to in my post had to with the WL and his cohorts.

You are correct we sometimes must ignore people for the sake of our sanity!!!!
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:14 PM   #45
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As Forrest Gump might have put it, "Righteous is as righteous does."

One of the most profound quotes I ever read... was from the first epistle of Paul to the Corinthians. Paul was at this point covering different foods, and then he suddenly said, "We all have knowledge. Knowledge means nothing."
I was reading an essay from Nicolai Berdyaev, a Russian Christian intellectual (1874-1948). He was discussing the concept of "orthodoxy", not in the organizational, Greek/Syrian/Russian Orthodox way as much as in the "orthodox" tradition of following those who came before you, i.e. following the Christ.

Here is a quote I wanted to share.

Orthodoxy is first of all, an orthodoxy of life and not an orthodoxy of indoctrination. For it, heretics are not so much those who confess a false doctrine but those who have a false spiritual life and go along a false spiritual path. Orthodoxy is before all else, not a doctrine, not an external organization, not an external norm of behavior but a spiritual life, a spiritual experience and a spiritual path. It sees the substance of Christianity in internal spiritual activity. Orthodoxy is less the normative form of Christianity (in the sense of a normative-rational logic and moral law) but is rather its more spiritual form.

Knowledge is not so much what we say as what we do. I know that terms such as "spiritual path" may not give us a comfortable yardstick, but it still touches Paul's idea in 1 Corinthians, that our doctrinal placards, however scrupulously presented, really won't support us in the end. In the end, it's about how we have lived. Not what we declared at Tuesday night prayer meeting, but how we lived, every moment of each day.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:52 AM   #46
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Default Being negative

I remember being told that we were not supposed to see anything wrong with the church. We were told the story of Balaam who tried to curse Israel but God told Balaam that Israel was beautiful in His eyes. We also should have such a view of the church, was the refrain. No problems in the church. Nothing wrong here. See no evil, speak no evil. Being "negative" was the mark that showed you were poisoned by Satan, etc.

So why was Lee able to consistently bash "poor christianity"? It is like he was talking out both sides of his mouth. On the one hand he told us that we should see nothing wrong with the church, and if we did point out anything wrong, it merely demonstrated our own darkness. On the other hand he continually said damning things about the Christian church, of which his beloved "recovery" was supposedly the standard-bearing emblem.

And if he was in a really bad mood, he would even bash the "low condition" of the Lord's recovery. The present situation was forcing him to be "frank" with us, he would say. He would tell us we were stagnant, dormant, lifeless, etc. But God forbid if anyone else tried to be "frank". They would be hustled out the door.

So if Lee said it he was being honest. If someone else said it they were being negative. Once you understood the ground rules of the recovery, you were fine. Anyone who "couldn't get it", i.e. couldn't stomach the hypocrisy, got pointed toward the exit sign.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:03 PM   #47
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And if he was in a really bad mood, he would even bash the "low condition" of the Lord's recovery. The present situation was forcing him to be "frank" with us, he would say. He would tell us we were stagnant, dormant, lifeless, etc. But God forbid if anyone else tried to be "frank". They would be hustled out the door.

So if Lee said it he was being honest. If someone else said it they were being negative. Once you understood the ground rules of the recovery, you were fine. Anyone who "couldn't get it", i.e. couldn't stomach the hypocrisy, got pointed toward the exit sign.
aron, you have to understand that in a rigid hierarchical society like the LC, "honesty and frankness" only roll downhill. These ground rules were readily apparent to all. Honesty and frankness never go uphill! Since Witness Lee alone in Anaheim, and Titus Chu in Cleveland were on top of their hills, they never faced such "honesty and frankness." And Titus Chu was well aware that his hill was not quite as high as Lee's hill, so whatever he got from Lee, he faithfully passed on to the GLA workers and elders, who in turn, passed it on to us, who in turn, gave it to our wives and kids.
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Old 08-05-2013, 10:19 PM   #48
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So why was Lee able to consistently bash "poor christianity"? It is like he was talking out both sides of his mouth. On the one hand he told us that we should see nothing wrong with the church, and if we did point out anything wrong, it merely demonstrated our own darkness. On the other hand he continually said damning things about the Christian church, of which his beloved "recovery" was supposedly the standard-bearing emblem.
This is where the truth about Lee and the LRC comes out.

Despite referring to the church generically, they are essentially omitting "poor Christianity" from the definition. So in the LRC lexicon, Lee did not say anything negative about the church because the church is simply the "Local Churches" that follow his teaching. All the others are merely "so-called churches" — not real churches.
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Old 08-06-2013, 06:59 AM   #49
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Lee did not say anything negative about the church because the church is simply the "Local Churches" that follow his teaching. All the others are merely "so-called churches" — not real churches.
Through his linguistic parsings Lee could wrap himself in the Mantle of Luther, while calling Lutherans the daughter of a harlot, devilish, and satanic. Out of the same mouth flowed salty water and sweet, and we, mesmerized, could not tell the difference.

James 3:10 ...from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way. 11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:33 AM   #50
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

#106
  1. We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.
This may be my favorite Bro. Lee quote , but I wish he had pointed out who the not many were....Lee of course and perhaps some of the blended brothers but not many of them....perhaps none of them and maybe he would not include himself. I wonder how one would quantify the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ?
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Old 04-15-2014, 09:53 AM   #51
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#106
  1. We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.
This may be my favorite Bro. Lee quote , but I wish he had pointed out who the not many were....Lee of course and perhaps some of the blended brothers but not many of them....perhaps none of them and maybe he would not include himself. I wonder how one would quantify the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ?
In hindsight I'd say "not many Christians" was a tactic. It points the eyes somewhere else, and away from Lee ... who was way too compromised to be in the full enjoyment the all-inclusive Christ. Whatever that is.

"The full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ" was Lee's nifty word screen, invented somewhere else than the Bible ... where there is no such statement.
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Old 04-15-2014, 10:10 AM   #52
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#106
  1. We must admit that not many Christians, even among us, have entered in a complete way into the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ.
This may be my favorite Bro. Lee quote , but I wish he had pointed out who the not many were....Lee of course and perhaps some of the blended brothers but not many of them....perhaps none of them and maybe he would not include himself. I wonder how one would quantify the full enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ?
I got delivered from these kinds of sayings when I finally learned how Lee mistreated the saints so unrighteously. He loved to paint a picture that he alone was releasing the riches of Christ in his ministry, when actually his ministry became filled with stale esoteric doctrines taken from others.
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:50 AM   #53
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I was reading an essay from Nicolai Berdyaev, a Russian Christian intellectual (1874-1948). He was discussing the concept of "orthodoxy", not in the organizational, Greek/Syrian/Russian Orthodox way as much as in the "orthodox" tradition of following those who came before you, i.e. following the Christ.

Here is a quote I wanted to share.

Orthodoxy is first of all, an orthodoxy of life and not an orthodoxy of indoctrination. For it, heretics are not so much those who confess a false doctrine but those who have a false spiritual life and go along a false spiritual path. Orthodoxy is before all else, not a doctrine, not an external organization, not an external norm of behavior but a spiritual life, a spiritual experience and a spiritual path. It sees the substance of Christianity in internal spiritual activity. Orthodoxy is less the normative form of Christianity (in the sense of a normative-rational logic and moral law) but is rather its more spiritual form.

Knowledge is not so much what we say as what we do. I know that terms such as "spiritual path" may not give us a comfortable yardstick, but it still touches Paul's idea in 1 Corinthians, that our doctrinal placards, however scrupulously presented, really won't support us in the end. In the end, it's about how we have lived. Not what we declared at Tuesday night prayer meeting, but how we lived, every moment of each day.
You nailed it, brother Aron.

As for Nikolai Berdyaev, I have always liked reading his books. He had a sharp mind and could flesh out his ideas in a vibrant, fresh, and alive way.

Pure truth, to paraphrase Berdyaev, could burst the Local Church apart.
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Old 04-16-2014, 01:19 PM   #54
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

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After reading just the first few pages of the LSM Life Study of Ephesians, the phrase "Not many Christians know" jumped out at me again and again. I found this quite distasteful (and fueling the fire of the arrogance of my home group) so I did a little research project...

Here, for your viewing pleasure, are "106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)", according to seven Life Studies (Genesis, Exodus, Ephesians, Hebrews, 1 Corinthians, Colossians & Revelation).

Enjoy - this is not intended for apologetic or theological discussion, simply to show Lee's arrogant writing style "enlarged ad absurdum"
What is really sad, making claims to know what "not many Christians know", yet when it comes to Christians within you're own locality, you don't know who is suffering or who has a particular need.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:18 PM   #55
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As for Nikolai Berdyaev, I have always liked reading his books. He had a sharp mind and could flesh out his ideas in a vibrant, fresh, and alive way.

Pure truth, to paraphrase Berdyaev, could burst the Local Church apart.
Sounds to me like pure truth would burst the Orthodox Church apart too!
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:21 PM   #56
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What is really sad, making claims to know what "not many Christians know", yet when it comes to Christians within you're own locality, you don't know who is suffering or who has a particular need.
There you go mate!

Witness Lee spoke in the meetings like he knew the condition of every Christian over the whole earth, yet he could not even have honest fellowship with those next door to him in Anaheim.
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:35 PM   #57
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Sounds to me like pure truth would burst the Orthodox Church apart too!
I am not sure about that because our faith and spiritual life are not based on dogmas, but on Christ's love to God and each other. But as for some teachings, interpretations, and doctrines, including yours and mine, as well as Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, -- that's for sure.

PS Check out these videos with one of our priests. Do you think he has anything to hide like WL and the blended brothers?

The goal of Christianity - Fr. Seraphim Cardoza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gdB24gyu_M You may start watching from 15:45 if you find the beginning boring.

Why America is in spiritual decline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IImc93s9SvQ

Spiritual Battles - Father Seraphim Cardoza
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI2QKHu9xfQ
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Old 04-17-2014, 02:18 AM   #58
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I am not sure about that because our faith and spiritual life are not based on dogmas, but on Christ's love to God and each other. But as for some teachings, interpretations, and doctrines, including yours and mine, as well as Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, -- that's for sure.

PS Check out these videos with one of our priests. Do you think he has anything to hide like WL and the blended brothers?
Methinks that you have an idealistic view of the priesthood.

After the collapse of the Soviet Empire two decades ago, it was the Orthodox priesthood which was the biggest opposition to the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the common folks.
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Old 04-17-2014, 02:47 AM   #59
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Methinks that you have an idealistic view of the priesthood.

After the collapse of the Soviet Empire two decades ago, it was the Orthodox priesthood which was the biggest opposition to the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the common folks.
I believe members of the LRC, Jehovah Witness, and Mormons think the same... The Orthodox Church prevents them from preaching their gospels.

I don't have an idealistic view of humankind, and the priesthood doesn't make any difference. We are all sinners. But I admire thousands of Orthodox priests who were murdered or died for their faith in Stalin's GULAG. They could have saved their lives, denying Christ, but they chose death.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:32 AM   #60
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I believe members of the LRC, Jehovah Witness, and Mormons think the same... The Orthodox Church prevents them from preaching their gospels.

I don't have an idealistic view of humankind, and the priesthood doesn't make any difference. We are all sinners. But I admire thousands of Orthodox priests who were murdered or died for their faith in Stalin's GULAG. They could have saved their lives, denying Christ, but they chose death.
It's unfortunate that you would lump LRC, Jehovah Witness, and Mormons together. The leadership if the Recovery has its issues, but their message of the gospel of Jesus Christ is according to the scripture.

Admittedly I know little about the Orthodox Church other than their obsession with icons and vestments. Perhaps wrongly, I have always likened them to the Catholic Church. There are many folks, like yourself, who support both churches.

And you are right about Stalin and the Gulag. Few in America realize that he was worse than Hitler.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:57 AM   #61
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Admittedly I know little about the Orthodox Church other than their obsession with icons and vestments. Perhaps wrongly,
It didn't sneak by me that they believe in theosis.

What a pipe dream.

Howbeit, we're born Divinized. Then as we grow up we lose it. Only for it to return in old age, when the flesh fails. So I guess it's true in a sense.
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Old 04-17-2014, 10:02 AM   #62
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It didn't sneak by me that they believe in theosis.

What a pipe dream.

Howbeit, we're born Divinized. Then as we grow up we lose it. Only for it to return in old age, when the flesh fails. So I guess it's true in a sense.
The Bible implies theosis to a certain degree, but never says it, and for good reason.

And for proof of that, look at those who actually teach it.
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Old 04-17-2014, 10:52 AM   #63
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The Bible implies theosis to a certain degree, but never says it, and for good reason.

And for proof of that, look at those who actually teach it.
That's why I'm so cynical about it.

But I concede the Bible makes theosis implications.

Just being in God's image is a fundamental theosis for everyone, believer or not.

And didn't Jesus tell the Jews, "know ye not ye are gods?" But we know they didn't act like it ...

Doesn't 2 Peter say we are "partakers of the divine nature."

And Romans mention "be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,?"

That's all and good. But let's be honest, no one becomes Christ. Not in this life. And those claiming to be divine, in various expressions, are lying.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:03 AM   #64
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But let's be honest, no one becomes Christ. Not in this life. And those claiming to be divine, in various expressions, are lying.
I'm afraid you have been misinformed. Nobody becomes divine. Nobody becomes Christ. The goal of an Orthodox Christian life is to become LIKE Christ, to live a simple life that He lived, be always faithful to Him, and love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.

Theosis is a process of transformation. The teaching of deification or theosis in Eastern Orthodoxy refers to the attainment of likeness of God, union with God or reconciliation with God. It's an ancient teaching, lost by Protestantism, but it comes from Jesus, the Apostles, and the Fathers of the Church who got their knowledge from the Apostles.

Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is 'made in the image and likeness of God.' ... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g. Ps. 82 (81).6; II Peter 1.4), and it is essentially the teaching both of St Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8.9—17; Gal. 4.5—7), and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21—23).

The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, 'if the Word has been made man, it is so that men may be made gods' , and becomes the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century, St. Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons 'by participation' (Greek methexis).

In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is both a transformative process as well as the goal of that process. The goal is the attainment of likeness to or union with God.

St. Athanasius of Alexandria wrote, "For He was made man that we might be made God". His statement is an apt description of the doctrine. What would otherwise seem absurd—that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy—has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis: as it is not possible for any created being to become God ontologically, or even a necessary part of God (of the three existences of God called hypostasis). As a created being can not become Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit nor the Father of the trinity.

St. Maximus the Confessor wrote, "A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the incarnation of God, which makes man god to the same degree as God himself became man.... Let us become the image of the one whole God, bearing nothing earthly in ourselves, so that we may consort with God and become gods, receiving from God our existence as gods. For it is clear that He who became man without sin (cf. Heb. 4:15) will divinize human nature without changing it into the divine nature, and will raise it up for his own sake to the same degree as He lowered himself for man's sake. This is what St Paul teaches mystically when he says, '...that in the ages to come he might display the overflowing richness of His grace' (Eph. 2:7)"

Through theoria, the contemplation of the triune God, human beings come to know and experience what it means to be fully human (the created image of God); through their communion with Jesus Christ, God shares Himself with the human race, in order to conform them to all that He is in knowledge, righteousness, and holiness. As God became human, in all ways except sin, He will also make humans god (Holy or saintly), in all ways except his divine essence (uncaused or uncreatedness). St Irenaeus explained this doctrine in Against Heresies, Book 5, in the Preface, "the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through his transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."

Theosis has three stages; the first being purification (katharsis) and the second illumination or the vision of God (theoria) and sainthood (theosis). By means of purification a person comes to illumination (theoria) and then sainthood. Sainthood is the participation of the person in the life of God. According to this doctrine, the holy life of God, given in Jesus Christ to the believer through the Holy Spirit, is expressed through the three stages of theosis, beginning in the struggles of this life, increasing in the experience of knowledge of God, and consummated in the resurrection of the believer, when the victory of God over fear, sin and death, accomplished in the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus, is made manifest in the believer forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis...hodox_theology)

In Christian theology, divinization (deification, making divine, or theosis) is the transforming effect of divine grace, the spirit of God, or the atonement of Christ. It literally means to become more divine, more like God, or take upon a divine nature.

Paul the Apostle taught in numerous passages that humans are sons of God (as in Romans 8 of Paul's Epistle to the Romans). Paul conceives of the resurrection as immortalization. Paul also writes that the saints would judge the world and the angels, and "all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's." In his Second Epistle to the Corinthians he writes "we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another." The fact that Christians attain "the same image" indicates a close union and even identification with Christ, the image of God.

In John 10:34-36, Jesus is described as defending himself against a charge of blasphemy,

"The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? [Psalms 82:1-7] If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

There are several biblical passages which state that men may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.

There were many varied references to divinization in the writings of the Church Fathers, including the following:

Irenaeus (c. 130-200)
"[T]he Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."

"'For we cast blame upon [God], because we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods; although God has adopted this course out of His pure benevolence, that no one may impute to Him invidiousness or grudgingness he declares, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High."

"For it was necessary, at first, that nature should be exhibited; then, after that, that what was mortal should be conquered and swallowed up by immortality, and the corruptible by incorruptibility, and that man should be made after the image and likeness of God."[Primary 2]
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215)

"[T]he Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God."

"For if one knows himself, he will know God; and knowing God, he will be made like God"

"[H]is is beauty, the true beauty, for it is God; and that man becomes God, since God so wills. Heraclitus, then, rightly said, “Men are gods, and gods are men.” For the Word Himself is the manifest mystery: God in man, and man God"

"[H]e who listens to the Lord, and follows the prophecy given by Him, will be formed perfectly in the likeness of the teacher—made a god going about in flesh."

"And to be incorruptible is to participate in divinity..."[Primary 6]
Justin Martyr (c. 100-165)

"[Men] were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons, and yet they, becoming like Adam and Eve, work out death for themselves; let the interpretation of the Psalm be held just as you wish, yet thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and of having power to become sons of the Highest."
Theophilus of Antioch (c. 120-190)

"For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. Again, if He had made him mortal, God would seem to be the cause of his death. Neither, then, immortal nor yet mortal did He make him, but, as we have said above, capable of both; so that if he should incline to the things of immortality, keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as reward from Him immortality, and should become God..."

Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-235)
"And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God: for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality."

"If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the laver he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead."

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373)
"Therefore He was not man, and then became God, but He was God, and then became man, and that to deify us"
"for as the Lord, putting on the body, became man, so we men are deified by the Word as being taken to Him through His flesh."
"For He was made man that we might be made God."

Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395)
"For just as He in Himself assimilated His own human nature to the power of the Godhead, being a part of the common nature, but not being subject to the inclination to sin which is in that nature (for it says: "He did no sin, nor was deceit found in his mouth), so, also, will He lead each person to union with the Godhead if they do nothing unworthy of union with the Divine."

Augustine of Hippo (c. 354-430)
"'For He hath given them power to become the sons of God.'[John 1:12] If we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods."

Maximus the Confessor
"Nothing in theosis is the product of human nature, for nature cannot comprehend God. It is only the mercy of God that has the capacity to endow theosis unto the existing... In theosis, man (the image of God) becomes likened to God, he rejoices in all the plenitude that does not belong to him by nature, because the grace of the Spirit triumphs within him, and because God acts in him."

Cyril of Alexandria says that humankind "are called 'temples of God' and indeed 'gods', and so we are."

Gregory of Nazianzus implores humankind to "become gods for (God's) sake, since (God) became man for our sake."

Basil of Caesarea stated that "becoming a god is the highest goal of all."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diviniz...hodox_theology

More on theosis:

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7114

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/gene...uality/theosis

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis

http://impantokratoros.gr/Theosis-Orthodoxy.en.aspx

http://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com...at-is-theosis/

http://www.antiochian.org/content/th...-divine-nature

Sorry, brothers, if you or your churches lost some Christian teachings, or you don't understand them, or your Christian life has other goals, it doesn't mean that Theosis is a wrong teaching.

Check out how old your believes and their roots before you judge this ancient Christian teaching:

http://stinnocentorthodoxchurch.org/...rthodox-faith/
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:27 AM   #65
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It's unfortunate that you would lump LRC, Jehovah Witness, and Mormons together. The leadership if the Recovery has its issues, but their message of the gospel of Jesus Christ is according to the scripture.
Maybe you are right. But I believe that in the LRC, the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not according to the scripture, but according to Witness Lee and the blended brothers. I don't know what kind of totalitarian system they are building, but it's definitely not the Christ's Church and it's not according to Christ's message.

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Admittedly I know little about the Orthodox Church other than their obsession with icons and vestments.
Icons and vestments are an external side, not internal. Some people can become obsessed with icons and vestments when they don't understand what they are for. But these things come from the earliest times. BTW, even Judaic priests in the Temple wore vestments.

Why Do Orthodox Clergy Wear Vestments?

http://itsthesimplelife.wordpress.co...ear-vestments/

Why do Priests wear black?

http://malankaraorthodoxchurch.in/in...377&Itemid=477

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The Bible implies theosis to a certain degree, but never says it, and for good reason.

And for proof of that, look at those who actually teach it.
Many of them died for Christ in Lenin's and Stalin's Russia. Of course, they were not Christs but they were faithful, lead a simple Christian life, loved God, and died for their faith.

One of Orthodox Monks whose goal is to be LIKE Christ. He is not Christ but all his life was dedicated to Him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ficmQ3anAyM

When he says "God is love", he means it.
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Old 04-18-2014, 07:15 AM   #66
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Hey ICA even C. S. Lewis believed in theosis. And of course, Witness Lee taught it. He just didn't attain it.
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:21 AM   #67
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Admittedly I know little about the Orthodox Church other than their obsession with icons and vestments.
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Icons and vestments are an external side, not internal. Some people can become obsessed with icons and vestments when they don't understand what they are for. But these things come from the earliest times. BTW, even Judaic priests in the Temple wore vestments.
That to me is not good bible study. It confuses the NT with the OT.

There is no justification whatsoever in the NT for vestments. They were part of an old system of types, shadows, and figures which point us to Christ, the reality. I'm not buying from any system which focuses so much attention on what can be seen, weakly justifying this with OT credentials.

They can write lengthy articles about wearing black, much the same as the western church loves its white and red vestments. Just the fact that color has been made the center of attention shows they missed the mark.
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Old 04-18-2014, 09:16 AM   #68
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That to me is not good bible study. It confuses the NT with the OT.

There is no justification whatsoever in the NT for vestments. They were part of an old system of types, shadows, and figures which point us to Christ, the reality. I'm not buying from any system which focuses so much attention on what can be seen, weakly justifying this with OT credentials.

They can write lengthy articles about wearing black, much the same as the western church loves its white and red vestments. Just the fact that color has been made the center of attention shows they missed the mark.
Vestments. I remember in the LC the white 'long sleeve' shirts, skinny ties, black pants and wingtips. That was our vestments in the LC to prove we were burning brothers.

But vestments don't sit much in my craw. That would be theosis. Cuz Lee taught "God became man so man could become God (not in Godhead)."

What a funny thing. Theosis comes down thru : Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, Hippolytus of Rome, Athanasius of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, Augustine of Hippo, Maximus the Confessor, Cyril of Alexandria, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil of Caesarea, the Eastern Orthodox church, and even the pagan Heraclitus of Ephesus, more than 500 yrs before Christ, and, and,

And, not one man since that has been like Jesus.

And what's funny is that a little China man brought it to Western Latin Christianity.

But I say theosis is an idealistic bewitching, used by Lee to cast a spell, on unsuspecting followers, to build his Western style Pope system.

So Lee blended Eastern and Western Christianity to build a new system, with him on top, like he was God.

Theosis? What a long running scam.
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Old 04-18-2014, 06:02 PM   #69
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Hey ICA even C. S. Lewis believed in theosis. And of course, Witness Lee taught it. He just didn't attain it.
Awareness, some people believed they were Christians and knew the Holy Bible from A to Z, but never behaved like one.

As for theosis, the testing criterion, i.e. a principle or standard by which something may be judged, is simple. It’s the fruit of the Holy Spirit. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." —Galatians 5:22-23
Personally, I don't have this fruit. It takes a lot of spiritual work to possess it. Plus God's mercy and grace. But maybe you have this fruit. If you don't think that it's another long running scam.

As for vestments, it's not a teaching but an old tradition. The Orthodox Christians never think of them that much as you guys do. It's such a minor thing for every Orthodox Christian.
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Old 04-18-2014, 07:37 PM   #70
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As for theosis, the testing criterion, i.e. a principle or standard by which something may be judged, is simple. It’s the fruit of the Holy Spirit. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." —Galatians 5:22-23
You notice that according to the record Jesus never said "I became man so that you can become God, or that man could become God." In fact, that is not stated anywhere in the NT record. Why should we listen to the early church fathers? They were just men, and not even inspired.

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Personally, I don't have this fruit. It takes a lot of spiritual work to possess it. Plus God's mercy and grace. But maybe you have this fruit. If you don't think that it's another long running scam.
Well theosis hasn't been used to scam the sheep as much as prophecy, over the millennia.

And I don't dislike theosis entirely. At bottom, when theosis is boiled down, everyone are little "g" gods. And if we see everyone as that, as little "g" gods, many of the fruits of the spirit will perchance spontaneously spring forth.

But I wonder if theosis is a fruit of the forbidden tree : "They have become as one of us." Gen 3:22
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Old 04-18-2014, 09:13 PM   #71
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You notice that according to the record Jesus never said "I became man so that you can become God, or that man could become God." In fact, that is not stated anywhere in the NT record. Why should we listen to the early church fathers? They were just men, and not even inspired.
"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" was written by Holy Father Athanasios the Great (born in 295), Archbishop of Alexandria, in his refutation of Arius during the First Ecumenical Council. It's a conclusion or a maxim, based on the Scriptures and the Holy Tradition.

I believe the Church Fathers were much closer to Jesus, the Apostles, and their teaching than Luther, or modern Bible scholars, teachers, and commentators. The Church Fathers kept the faith, teaching, and tradition. If we who live in 2014 start to interpret the Holy Bible with our own logic and understanding, without tradition or, as the Orthodox Christians say, Holy Tradition, we may lose much of the Bible's treasure. (2 Thessalonians 2:15 “hold fast to the traditions you received from us, either by our word or by letter.”)

Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature. Also referred to as deification, divinization, or illumination, it is a concept derived from the New Testament regarding the goal of our relationship with the Triune God.

Not everything of the Christian teaching was in the New Testament, many things were not on paper, many things were lost, but there are hints at theosis, as an ancient Christian teaching, in the Holy Bible:

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. Genesis 1:26-27

I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. John 1:12–13

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears,nwe shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. All who have this hope in Him purify themselves, just as He is pure. 1 John 3:1-3

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus. Philippians 2:5

until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. Ephesians 4:13

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

We are to present our bodies as a “living sacrifice,” doing so as part of our spiritual worship. And we are to “be transformed” by the renewing of our minds into the likeness of God. Romans 12:1–2

His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 2 Peter 1:3-7

The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? John 10:33–36

Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14 (I.e. Faith is not enough for salvation).

1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:17 We are reminded that we are God’s “temple” and that “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him”—union with God.

Galatians 2:20: “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.”

Philippians 1:21: “For me, to live is Christ.”

Colossians 3:3: We have “died” and our lives are “hidden with Christ in God”—total participation in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: May God “sanctify you completely”—complete conformity to the image and likeness of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:14: We were called by God “for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 John 4:17: “Because as He is, so are we in this world”—the possibility of deification, total participation in Christ this side of eternity.

John 17:22: In His high priestly prayer, Jesus says that He has given us the glory that the Father gave Him.

Revelation 21:7: At the beginning of the eschaton, Christ says of each of us, “I will be his God and he shall be My son.”

1 John 3:2: “We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Philippians 3:21: Christ will “transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.”


These passages promise to all Christians an ending “like Christ” at the consummation of history. Since that is our end—actually a new beginning, for which we were created and redeemed—we are urged throughout the New Testament to obtain more and more of that reality in this life, as a “dress rehearsal” for the life to come. In short, this is what theosis/deification is: the possibility that we can acquire in this life that state that we will have as resurrected, glorified persons in the presence of God in eternity.

We become united with God by grace in the Person of Christ, who is God come in the flesh. The means of becoming “like God” is through perfection in holiness, the continuous process of acquiring the Holy Spirit by grace through ascetic devotion. Some Protestants might refer to this process as sanctification. Another term for it, perhaps more familiar to Western Christians, would be mortification—putting sin to death within ourselves.

Because the Church Fathers believed that the Logos became flesh, this means that the nature of God and the nature of man are united in one Person. What does this imply? One of the answers is that man can be divinized (cf. 2 Peter 1:4; 1 John 3:1-3). This does not mean that man's nature changes into the nature of God.

St. Maximos the Confessor, as Fr. Hester notes, defined theosis as “total participation in Jesus Christ.” So the goal of any Christian is to be LIKE Christ and live a life without sin.

Salvation requires ongoing hope and faith, not a one- time decision with absolute certainty. In that cooperation man can truly know God (John 17:3), becoming a “partaker of the divine nature” (2 Pet. 1:4), growing in Christlikeness (Eph. 4:13).

In any case, theosis is the New Testament doctrine that salvation, union with God, entails a transfiguration of our persons to conform with the logic of the Incarnation. Which is to say, just as Jesus joined humanity to his divinity, we, by grace in Christ, join divinity to our humanity. As St. Paul writes to the Galatians:

For as many as were baptized into Christ, ye put on Christ (Galatians 3:27)

We don't just clothe ourselves with parts of Christ, his righteousness here, his humility there, but with the whole of Christ. And one cannot separate out his righteousness and his humility from his very Person. Nor can one separate out Christ's divinity and his humanity.

2 Peter 1:3-4 bear repeating:

"Inasmuch as His divine power hath freely given to us all the things for life and piety, through the full knowledge of Him Who called us by glory and virtue, by which He hath freely given to us the very great and precious promises, that through these ye might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by desire." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

Here we are given the promise that our salvation is fundamentally a participation in the divine nature of God.

“For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the divinity bodily, and ye are made full in Him, Who is the head of all principality and authority . . . .” (Colossians 2:9-10)

Once again, if the fullness of divinity dwells in Jesus bodily, and if we are made full in Him, then it logically follows that His fullness dwells in us, and that means we share in His divinity, we are, as St. Peter tells us, partakers of the divine nature.

“And He put in subjection all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the Church, which is His body, the fullness of Him Who filleth all things in all.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

Once again, the Church, of which we are members, is the fullness of Him who fills all things in all. Clearly Scripture means we have the fullness of Christ in us (as the Church, and personally as members of the Church). And if Christ's fullness dwells in us, this must mean His divinity, which means we partake of the divine nature.

But it's not only these verses that speak of this. This is a consistent theme of Scripture. I note again, Jesus' words in his "high priestly prayer":

"And I do not make request for these [the Apostles] only, but also for those who shall believe on Me through their word; in order that all may be one, even as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us, that the world might believe that Thou didst send Me forth. And the glory which Thou hast given Me I have given them, in order that they may be one, even as We are one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send Me forth, and didst love them even as Thou didst love Me. (John 17:20-23)

In other words, the union of God in Christ was more than merely a communication of "character and disposition," and so, too, is that union with us. The difference, of course, is immeasurable: Christ is the Second Person of the Godhead, we are not. That, however, does not erase the strong and clear wording of His prayer, that we as whole persons, will be joined to God in Christ and partake of the divine union, the divine nature. We will be/are by grace what Christ is by nature.

But there are other equally clear passages. Note 1 John 3:2:

"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it was not yet made manifest what we shall be; but we know that if He should be made manifest, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." (1 John 3:2)

Some may object, and quibble over St. John's use of "like" (homoioi), meaning God stays God and we stay human, and nothing at all divine characterizes us even in eternity, I would simply point them to John 1:16:

"And of His fullness we all received; grace for grace . . . ." (John 1:16)

Whose fullness? Christ's. Does it mean his fullness, er, except for the divine part? Of course not. Christ's fullness includes his divinity. We participate in the divinity of Christ.

But note also that this isn't just in St. Peter's epistle, or St. John's epistle and Gospel, or a couple of letters to the Colossians and Ephesians. St. Paul also reiterates this doctrine to the Corinthians--whom of any of the Churches of the New Testament would seem far from a model for partaking of the divine nature.

"But we all, with unveiled face reflecting as a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord, the Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Now I know that some will emphasize the "reflecting part." But St. Paul immediately follows with the fact that we will be transformed into the image we are reflecting. Others will emphasize the "glory" part, as though we will not become partakers of the divine nature, but "only" of God's glory. But then the obvious question is: can you separate God's glory from his nature? Indeed, isn't it pretty well established biblical fact that "glory" is often a circumlocution for the very nature of God?

No, the evidence is overwhelming, and the New Testament is clear, our salvation involves union with God, but that union cannot be accomplished apart from our being transfigured with God's divine nature.

Nowhere does the New Testament claim that we become God. But we do, through the communication of God's divinity to us in the Person of Christ and in our union with Him in His Body the Church, become "gods." In fact, this is Jesus' own very point in reverse in John 10:34-36.

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in you law, 'I said, "Ye are gods"'? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came to pass--and the Scripture is not able to be broken--do ye say of Him, Whom the Father sanctified and sent forth into the world, 'Thou blasphemest,' because I said, 'I am God's Son'? (John 10:34-36)

That is to say, Jesus claims that Scripture itself referred to Israel as "gods," and since Scripture cannot be broken it was entirely biblical for Jesus to call Himself God's Son. But note: making "gods" only figurative, takes away the force of what Jesus is saying about Himself (which is something we the readers know about Him that the Jewish leaders did not). That is to say, if Jesus' claim is true because Israel was called "gods," then if Jesus is really God, Israel (and by implication the new Israel) are really "gods."

Now, before anyone goes all Joseph-Smith-Mormon-screaming-hysterical or Shirly-Maclaine-New-Age-God/Goddess-screaming-hysterial on me, none of this in any way indicates we become God, or gods in the same way that God is God. We are, if you will, and stating it in a very crass, non-technical way, "godlets."

Truly, the main point is that of union with God. But if we are going to be one with God, we must become like Him, we must come to share in His divinity. But as is also clear from the New Testament, we can only do this in Christ--Who unites human and divine in His Person--and only through His Body the Church. We are not inherently "gods," "godlets," or, worse blasphemy "God(s)". We are only so through grace.

http://chattablogs.com/aionioszoe/archives/027196.html
http://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com...at-is-theosis/
http://www.antiochian.org/content/th...-divine-nature

PS I believe it’s a kind of spiritual pride and vanity to think that we, in 2014, may interpret and understand the Bible better than the Church Fathers, who compiled the book. Maybe we can question more but understand? According to what? According to our own understanding? But different people have a different understanding. And even less people know ancient Greek.

When the early Church Fathers complied the Holy Bible, there were neither us, nor Luther, nor Nee, nor Lee. If we reject the Holy Tradition, then we may end up rejecting some Bible verses or the whole Bible. In other words, we may start preaching not Christ's message but something else, like any false teachers do. They don't preach the Holy Bible according to the tradition, but according to their own understanding. Why? Because they think: "Those first centuries of Christianity were rubbish. They were all wrong! It's the Modern World now. New rules and new people. And I am the smartest. Therefore, I am the only one who is right." Who do we trust more? The ancient Christian teachers who compiled the Bible and got their knowledge and tradition from Jesus Christ and the Apostles, or those ministers who interpret the Bible today? According to the Modern Age, their own understanding, logic, and rational mind?


For example, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. There are no Christ's words about it. Therefore, some Protestant churches allow gay marriages nowadays. But we know the Church and Apostles' attitude to homosexuality. It's in other Bible verses AND in the ancient Christian tradition. The first chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans contains the Bible's clearest condemnation of same-sex relations--both male and female.

For centuries, the Church has never blessed gay marriages. However, recent scholarship reads the same text and finds just the opposite--that homosexuality is innate and therefore normal, moral, and biblical. Who is right? Christians who keep the tradition or the modern scholars? They all read the same verses but one interpretation is according to the tradition, and another one is not.

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Ephesians 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Romans 1:26-28
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

1 Timothy 1:10-11
The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Other translations:

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (The words men who have sex with men translate two Greek words that refer to the passive and active participants in homosexual acts).

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminates {malakoi}, nor homosexuals {arsenokoitai}, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10). (The words translated as “effeminates” and “homosexuals” are often omitted in modern Bible translations and replaced with the single word “perverts,” even though two separate words appear in the Greek text of Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians).

I don't judge gays. Who am I? I myself am a great sinner. I just believe that gay marriages are neither according to the scriptures, nor the tradition.

"Real interpretation of Scripture is Church preaching, is tradition" - St. Irenaeus (Born 130).
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Old 04-19-2014, 10:02 AM   #72
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ICA, I appreciate all the work you've done on this post. I wonder if all this about the Eastern Orthodox is more to convince yourself than us.

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"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" was written by Holy Father Athanasios the Great (born in 295), Archbishop of Alexandria, in his refutation of Arius during the First Ecumenical Council.
You mean "Holy" Athanasius that was exiled five times, for heresy. Maybe he wasn't all that holy. Were his writings inspired of God? Should we base our convictions on him?

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I believe the Church Fathers were much closer to Jesus, the Apostles, and their teaching than Luther, or modern Bible scholars, teachers, and commentators.
Dah. They were closer chronologically.

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Originally Posted by ICA
The Church Fathers kept the faith, teaching, and tradition. If we who live in 2014 start to interpret the Holy Bible with our own logic and understanding, without tradition or, as the Orthodox Christians say, Holy Tradition, we may lose much of the Bible's treasure. (2 Thessalonians 2:15 “hold fast to the traditions you received from us, either by our word or by letter.”)
Do I need to quote Jesus on keeping the traditions of men?

You seem to want to paint a beautiful picture of Orthodoxy. But I see it completely differently.

Jesus said to judge a tree by it fruits.

And I see the Orthodoxy as a bad tree ... with horrible fruit. As I see it this bad tree started with the proto-orthodox, then was carried on by the Orthodox into a state religion that eventually committed many non-Christian atrocities. Why do you think Luther and the Reformation was so necessary? The Orthodoxy brought us the dark ages. What an ugly monstrous bad tree it became.

Quote:
"Real interpretation of Scripture is Church preaching, is tradition" - St. Irenaeus (Born 130).
Irenaeus was a nutjob, and prolly one of the greatest heretics of all.

Read this silliness:
"There are four principle winds, four pillars that hold up the sky, and four corners of the universe; therefore, it is only right that there be four gospels."
-- Church father Irenaeus, late 2nd century


Should we really base our convictions on such an uninspired man? A man that was a seed for the bad tree called Orthodoxy?
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Old 04-19-2014, 10:51 AM   #73
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You mean "Holy" Athanasius that was exiled five times, for heresy. Maybe he wasn't all that holy. Were his writings inspired of God? Should we base our convictions on him?
I have read some about Athanasius, and it was all positive. His 5 exiles should really be considered persecution by the official state powers. His chief opponent was the much older Arius who linked his cause to the emperor Constantine, who wanted to make Christianity the religion of the state without knowing the truths of the scripture. The heresy of Arius (similar to today's JW's) was that Jesus was nor really God. Had Athanasius fought his battle for the faith under a less noble emperor (like one of the Caesars), he would have been martyred.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:04 AM   #74
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"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" was written by Holy Father Athanasios the Great (born in 295), Archbishop of Alexandria, in his refutation of Arius during the First Ecumenical Council. It's a conclusion or a maxim, based on the Scriptures and the Holy Tradition.
Great post InChristAlone. Well worth printing out for study. Thank you.

As I have said before, Athanasius "punch line" is an acceptable conclusion to many scriptures, but . . .

Firstly, the Bible never actually teaches this, and in many books of the Bible, there was ample opportunity to do so.

Secondly, I have never seen any positive results from the teaching in church history. Athanasius, in his battle for the truth at the Council of Nicea, actually took this saying to emphasis the first half -- "God became man ..." to refute Arius' claims that Jesus, the Son of God, was less than God, and thus not God Himself.

Thirdly, this teaching is not accepted by the bulk of evangelical Christians as acceptable truth, rather the second part ". . . to make man god" has become the hallmark of many cults and new age atheists.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:10 AM   #75
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I have read some about Athanasius, and it was all positive. His 5 exiles should really be considered persecution by the official state powers. His chief opponent was the much older Arius who linked his cause to the emperor Constantine, who wanted to make Christianity the religion of the state without knowing the truths of the scripture. The heresy of Arius (similar to today's JW's) was that Jesus was nor really God. Had Athanasius fought his battle for the faith under a less noble emperor (like one of the Caesars), he would have been martyred.
Yes whenever Arians had the power they pitched Athanasius to the curb. He even had to run for his life. These "Holy" Christians. both sides, killed each other over doctrine back then ; acting real Christian like.

Why should I have any high regard for them?

I feel like you guys want me to elevate these early church fathers like I once elevated Watchman Nee.

After being burned once for doing that, I can't do it no more.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:34 AM   #76
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Yes whenever Arians had the power they pitched Athanasius to the curb. He even had to run for his life. These "Holy" Christians. both sides, killed each other over doctrine back then ; acting real Christian like.

Why should I have any high regard for them?

I feel like you guys want me to elevate these early church fathers like I once elevated Watchman Nee.

After being burned once for doing that, I can't do it no more.
Any church father or martyr for the faith should be honored even as Jesus Himself honored those prophets which the Jews had killed, but we should not elevate them beyond what they were.

Even as Paul says when the Corinthians tried to uplift him, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord," and no one else.

Aye?

Brother awareness, unfortunately, many, even genuine Christians have saved their own hides by finding other more "suitable" sacrifices in their stead. Who knows what we would have done in their shoes? Martin Luther did this with the Anabaptists, and many of them died in the river being "baptized" by evil men. Witness Lee saved his own neck by sacrificing Ingalls and others. Church history is filled with all sorts of nasties like this. Only God in the end can sort it all out. Only His Son was pure, holy, righteous, and without sin.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:51 AM   #77
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Only His Son was pure, holy, righteous, and without sin.
Amen to that bro Ohio.
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:58 PM   #78
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Brothers, maybe I am really keen on the tradition too much. But I will explain you my point of view. There were over 30 Gospels (with big names: Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Philip, and Gospel of James, etc) but the early Church Fathers chose only 4. Why? Because they kept the tradition. And they knew that these 4 Gospels were held by the Apostles and did not distort Christ and His teaching like false gospels did. So the Church Fathers compiled the Holy Bible that was trustworthy for them AND is trustworthy for us.

Suppose the early Church Fathers and their teachings were all wrong. What makes us think that we, who live in 2014, are right? Or Luther? Or Nee? Or Lee? Do we keep the tradition? We can't even read the Gospel in ancient Greek. What makes us think that we understand the Bible better than the ancient Christians? We may know more but do we really understand? We are full of knowledge but lack of understanding.

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And I see the Orthodoxy as a bad tree ... with horrible fruit. As I see it this bad tree started with the proto-orthodox, then was carried on by the Orthodox into a state religion that eventually committed many non-Christian atrocities. Why do you think Luther and the Reformation was so necessary? The Orthodoxy brought us the dark ages. What an ugly monstrous bad tree it became.
Brother Awareness, the fruit of the Orthodox Church are thousands, and maybe millions of martyrs who loved God, testified their faith, and died for Christ.

The dark ages have nothing to do with the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Christian countries. The Dark Ages is a historical periodization used originally for the Middle Ages, which emphasizes the cultural and economic deterioration that supposedly occurred in Western Europe following the decline of the Roman Empire.

During most of its existence, the Eastern Empire (Byzantine Empire) was the most powerful economic, cultural, and military force in Europe. So the Byzantine Empire and then Orthodox Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Russia never had the dark ages. We have never been under Pope and we never knew papal infallibility, the Inquisition, the indulgences, Luther, and the Reformation. The dark ages are all about the Catholic Church and Catholic/ Protestant countries.


Anyway, may the Lord grant us wisdom to see the truth. I am sorry, I don't have time to continue the discussion.

I love you brothers. Christ is Risen!
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:38 PM   #79
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We may know more but do we really understand? We are full of knowledge but lack of understanding.
Same can be said for now in present time. When there's a focus of knowledge, the mark is missed on understanding. Knowledge leads to pride; what one group of Christians may know compared to another group of Christians. When there's the presence of pride, there's an absence of humility.
When there's effort to knowing the Bible, does one understand what the Bible is saying? Especially in fundamentals when it comes to:
1. What it is to love your neighbor as yourself
2. What it is to give grace
3. What it is to give mercy
4. What it is to bless and not curse
Etc.
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:08 PM   #80
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"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God" was written by Holy Father Athanasios the Great (born in 295), Archbishop of Alexandria, in his refutation of Arius during the First Ecumenical Council. It's a conclusion or a maxim, based on the Scriptures and the Holy Tradition.
Hello ICA,

Everyone in the LC has heard this quote from Athansius, and it's an LC Creed. ... But I wonder if everyone has heard this supposedly stand-alone 13 word sentence explained in context by Athanasius himself? I found some interesting facts on it that I posted here on another discussion....

"Athanasius clarified this statement in his third treatise against the Arians: "To become as the Father is impossible for us creatures.''

"There be one Son by nature...we too become sons, not as He in nature and truth, but according to the grace of Him that calleth, and though we are men from the earth, and yet called gods, not as the True God or His Word.... We are sons, not as the Son, as gods, not as He Himself. '' (Orat 3.19-20; Robertson 404-405).

Similarly, in Orat 1.37 he briefly noted that "we are children by grace, not by nature. We are like the Son not in essence but in sonship, which we shall partake from Him'' (De Syn 53; Robertson 479).


If we cannot be gods by nature or essence, in what way are we to be like God?

"We are as God by imitation, not by nature'' (Orat 3.20; Robertson 405).

Jesus did not mean "that we might be as God,'' but that we should imitate him (Orat 3.19; Robertson 404).

"Albeit we cannot become like God in essence, yet by progress in virtue imitate God'' (Ad Afros 7; Robertson 492).

This treatise of Athanasius', now put in it's proper context, reveals all too clearly that Athanasius is not an ally of Lee's - but rather that he would reject completely Lee's theology: man cannot become God in life and in nature or in the Godhead; but can, through His grace, imitate His righteousness."


And I'm with Ohio on this one, this fraction of a quote by Athanasius has been used by cults to elevate man to God's position. It's a dangerous theology, that robs God of the Glory by denying Him worship and focusing man's attention on himself. That's the fruit I've witnessed this kind of theology bearing. The LC is living proof.
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:21 PM   #81
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Hello ICA,

Everyone in the LC has heard this quote from Athansius, and it's an LC Creed. ... But I wonder if everyone has heard this supposedly stand-alone 13 word sentence explained in context by Athanasius himself? I found some interesting facts on it that I posted here on another discussion....

"Athanasius clarified this statement in his third treatise against the Arians: "To become as the Father is impossible for us creatures.''

"There be one Son by nature...we too become sons, not as He in nature and truth, but according to the grace of Him that calleth, and though we are men from the earth, and yet called gods, not as the True God or His Word.... We are sons, not as the Son, as gods, not as He Himself. '' (Orat 3.19-20; Robertson 404-405).

Similarly, in Orat 1.37 he briefly noted that "we are children by grace, not by nature. We are like the Son not in essence but in sonship, which we shall partake from Him'' (De Syn 53; Robertson 479).

[COLOR=black]
If we cannot be gods by nature or essence, in what way are we to be like God?

"We are as God by imitation, not by nature'' (Orat 3.20; Robertson 405).

Jesus did not mean "that we might be as God,'' but that we should imitate him (Orat 3.19; Robertson 404).

"Albeit we cannot become like God in essence, yet by progress in virtue imitate God'' (Ad Afros 7; Robertson 492).
Like I stated, when you boil down theosis, everyone is a little "g" god. Born again or not.

And isn't being born again all the theosis we need.
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Old 04-22-2014, 09:37 AM   #82
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Like I stated, when you boil down theosis, everyone is a little "g" god. Born again or not.
And isn't being born again all the theosis we need.
Harold I'm not so sure that you're qualified enough to "boil down" such a heavy-duty theological concept for us...but hey, that's never stopped you before, so you're certainly welcome to try!

"Born again or not"? Well, if were talking about theosis in the context of the Bible and Christian theology, then it does most certainly matter if we are born again or not. Furthermore, being born again cannot be "all the theosis we need", for the very term "born" implies the beginning of a process. I ran across this on wikipedia, and if this is actually what is taught in the Eastern Orthodox church then I would agree with this definition of theosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis...hodox_theology)

In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is both a transformative process as well as the goal of that process. The goal is the attainment of likeness to or union with God. As a process of transformation theosis is brought about by the effects of katharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria. According to eastern Orthodox teaching theosis is very much the purpose of human life.
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Old 04-22-2014, 10:08 AM   #83
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Harold I'm not so sure that you're qualified enough to "boil down" such a heavy-duty theological concept for us...but hey, that's never stopped you before, so you're certainly welcome to try!

Two things related to all of us, every human, being a little "g" god : the image of God, and "the man is become as one of us." And even you can boil that down. Not to mention "know ye not that ye are gods"-Jesus

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"Born again or not"? Well, if were talking about theosis in the context of the Bible and Christian theology, then it does most certainly matter if we are born again or not. Furthermore, being born again cannot be "all the theosis we need", for the very term "born" implies the beginning of a process. I ran across this on wikipedia, and if this is actually what is taught in the Eastern Orthodox church then I would agree with this definition of theosis.
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Originally Posted by UTH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis...hodox_theology)

In Eastern Orthodoxy deification (theosis) is both a transformative process as well as the goal of that process. The goal is the attainment of likeness to or union with God. As a process of transformation theosis is brought about by the effects of katharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria. According to eastern Orthodox teaching theosis is very much the purpose of human life.
-
That's interesting but ... the EOC practices infant baptism and is not big on being born again, in the evangelical sense of the meaning.
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Old 04-25-2014, 07:29 AM   #84
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That's interesting but ... the EOC practices infant baptism and is not big on being born again, in the evangelical sense of the meaning.
Awareness, the Orthodox Church keeps the tradition. Jesus said to let the little children come to Him. Who are we to hinder them? If John the Baptizer could be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother’s womb (Luke 1: 15), then certainly little children too can be filled with the Holy Spirit and be baptised.

Orthodoxy, teaches that infants are perfectly capable of being in the Body of Christ. As pointed out by Origen, in his Homily to the Romans, "the Church received from the apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too." The Orthodox Church baptizes infants in order to unite them fully to Christ and make them a full member of His Body, the Church — they are sinless as babies, only inheriting “corruption” (i.e., mortality) from Adam.

(Psalm 22:9-10) Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts. On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

St. Peter, when preaching the gospel, said this:

(Acts 2:38-39) And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

St. Paul compares circumcision (which was given to infants born into the covenant community) with Baptism

(Colossians 2:11-12) In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

The Apostle Paul never once says that a man is saved by faith alone. Indeed, he teaches the opposite:

(Romans 2:6-10) He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

(Romans 2:13) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be shown to be righteous.

(Romans 6:22) But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

(Romans 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

How then, are we to understand Paul’s doctrine of justification (making righteous) by faith? St. Paul begins Romans by identifying the key point as a “life lived by faith.” (Romans 1:17) Faith is a lifestyle. It is the foundation upon which all truly good deeds are based. While we do not have the space to go into depth about St. Paul’s understanding of salvation here, we may summarize it in this fashion.

1. One has faith.
2. If one acts consistently with that faith, then one is baptized, washing the person of their sins and uniting them to Christ. (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:12)
3. One receives the Spirit. (Rom 5:5)
4. By the Spirit and living by faith, one puts to death the deeds of the body (Rom 8:13)
5. Having put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit in faith, one is sanctified (Rom 6:22)
6. Because of the above, one is judged aright on the Last Day (Rom 2:6-7)

Paul’s condemnation of works is not a condemnation of all works. It is a condemnation of a particular type of work, the work of the law. Works of the law do not only apply to the Jewish law. St. Paul was specifically dealing with the example of why the Jewish Torah could not justify someone, but the critique he makes of ‘works of the Torah’ can apply to any work that falls under the condemnation of Romans 4:4.

(Romans 4:4) Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his payment.

Works of the law are works which attempt to obligate God to provide a payment of salvation. We cannot obligate God. He does not owe us anything. One must work not under the principle of law, but under the principle of faith. This is why Paul says:

(Romans 3:27) Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

It is then in “living by faith” that one “upholds the law.”

(Romans 3:31) Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

God does not pay man for his works. God owes man nothing. Yet, looking at man through the eyes of grace, God may justly reward man for his works. As St. Paul says:

(Hebrews 11:6) And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Note here that faith is not seen as the sole means of salvation in this passage. Rather, faith is the orientation by which one operates. It is only useful if one chooses, by the Spirit, to use that faith in order to perform works of love. While works of the law are condemned by St. Paul and juxtaposed against faith, other types of works are actually joined inseparably with faith:

(Galatians 5:6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

For the Apostle Paul, “faith working through love” is equivalent to “keeping the commandments of God”, as can be seen by the parallel wording in this passage:

(1 Corinthians 7:19) For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping these commandments of God

St. James utterly rejects the idea that man can be saved by faith alone, writing:

(James 2:24) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

When Baptists preach that ‘You must be born again', preach a Gnostic understanding of the phrase “born again.” Orthodox, understanding the physical and the spiritual as two fundamentally good creations of God, do not exclude the physical from salvation. This is what Christ says when He spoke of the Christian rebirth:

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Being “born again” is a matter of being born by “water and the Spirit.” The Fathers of the Church, from the earliest days, have interpreted this to be a prophecy of Christian Baptism. One is immersed into water, which the Spirit works through to effect regeneration by union with Christ. Baptists, in their understanding of rebirth, have completely ignored Christ’s reference to water.
http://thesobornost.org/2012/12/comm...-to-orthodoxy/

More On Infant Baptism

http://www.antiochian.org/content/in...hurch-believes - very good article by Fr. John Hainsworth

Infant baptism was not controversial in the Church during the first two centuries after Christ. St. Polycarp described himself as having been in devoted service to Christ for 86 years in a manner that would clearly indicate a childhood baptism. Pliny describes with amazement that children belong to the Christian cult in just the same way as do the adults. St. Justin Martyr tells of the “many men and women who have been disciples of Christ from childhood.” St. Irenaeus of Lyon wrote about “all who are born again in God, the infants, and the small children . . . and the mature.” St. Hippolytus insisted that “first you should baptize the little ones . . . but for those who cannot speak, their parents should speak or another who belongs to their family.”

The earthly family is an image of the heavenly family, the family of the Kingdom of God. Children born to a Christian family are born again into the heavenly family through baptism. A child baptized in the Orthodox Church belongs to a spiritual family. This family bridges both heaven and earth, stretches backward and forward in time and includes both saints and angels. Children belong to this family exactly as each of my daughters belongs to my family. They know in a profound way that they belong long before they have some kind of cerebral understanding of that belonging.

Our modern world so exults reason and cerebralism that young children are sometimes treated as not fully human, or are at least treated less seriously than adults because they can’t think like we do. The truth is that a child is a full human being. A child of any age is capable of expressing and participating in the glory of God. Christ Himself sanctified every age as God-bearing, since He was as much the perfect Word of God as an infant as when He was a grown man. We must remember that children are not second-class persons. Their baptisms are as significant to them and to God as adult baptisms. Even if they do not cognitively understand what that baptism means, they are certainly capable of intuitively understanding it.

Children become full participants in Christ, as He ordained them to be and indeed as He became incarnate for them to be. This means as well that they are baptized into a promise. If they are buried with Christ in baptism, they will be raised with Him as well. They are raised with the promise of eternal life, with the expectation of the Resurrection. We do not hang this promise in front of them like a carrot (or a lollipop) to lead them to some future acceptance of Christ. By virtue of baptism, they participate in this promise now. They do so because they already experience life in Christ. Indeed, they grow up at His very knee.

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/o...ral-tradition/

The Orthodox Christian understanding of Original Sin is different from that of the West. Protestants and Roman Catholics believe that Infants are Born Sinners. This is their teaching regarding Original Sin.

This is according to the teaching of the western father St. Augustine of Hippo. The Roman Catholics adopted this teaching, while the Orthodox Christians of the Eastern Christendom rejected this.
Later, even after the Protestant Reformation, the Protestants continued to believe in this doctrine of St. Augustine.

The Orthodox Christians believe that babies don't need to repent as they were not sinners.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7067
http://orthodoxbridge.com/is-infant-baptism-biblical/
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Infant_baptism

I am sorry. I don't want to go on and on about the Orthodox Church and her traditions. The more I try to explain it to you, the more I convince myself that the Orthodox teachings make sense.

You may try to read this book. I hope it can answer lots of your questions.

'The Orthodox Church' by Timothy Ware

http://www.amazon.com/The-Orthodox-C.../dp/0140146563
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Old 04-25-2014, 08:03 AM   #85
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Thanks for the thoughtful and bountiful response ICA.

And here I always thought infant baptism was a devious diabolical plot of the orthodoxy, both east and west, to ensure church growth.

My bad.

I was baptized at 8 yr old in a Southern Baptist Church in Miami. And then taught that the Roman orthodox was the great whore of Babylon.

So I've never thought much of orthodoxy ever since.

And as I've stated, I'm not much of a respecter of the early church fathers. I've learned much about them, and for the most part find them quite loopy. They certainly weren't inspired enough for their writings to be equivalent to scripture. So I wouldn't base any convictions on them ...
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Old 04-25-2014, 08:17 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Two things related to all of us, every human, being a little "g" god : the image of God, and "the man is become as one of us." And even you can boil that down. Not to mention "know ye not that ye are gods"-Jesus.
Harold, neither passage you have provided helps your case (whatever that may be!)

In the first case you left out the second part....
"the man is become as one of us, in knowing good and evil". There is no doubt that man was created in God's image, but that image was severely damaged because of man's disobedience. In fact it was because of this damage that God withdrew the Tree of Life and exiled man from the Garden. This is where the long history of redemption begins. This redemptive history has it's conclusion when at last even our bodies are redeemed from the corruption of the Fall. At this point man will be returned to the image and likeness of God.

"Know ye not that ye are gods" Jesus Christ was not saying this but merely quoting from Psalm 82. He was simply turning the tables on the hypocritical Jewish leaders (who supposed they really knew the scriptures). The gods that were mentioned were those "to whom the Word of God came"...mere mortal men. Anyway, go read the whole Psalm (it's only 8 verses) for the complete context and get back to us.
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Old 04-25-2014, 09:25 AM   #87
awareness
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Default Re: 106 things not many Christians know (but Witness Lee knows)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Harold, neither passage you have provided helps your case (whatever that may be!)

In the first case you left out the second part....
"the man is become as one of us, in knowing good and evil". There is no doubt that man was created in God's image, but that image was severely damaged because of man's disobedience. In fact it was because of this damage that God withdrew the Tree of Life and exiled man from the Garden. This is where the long history of redemption begins. This redemptive history has it's conclusion when at last even our bodies are redeemed from the corruption of the Fall. At this point man will be returned to the image and likeness of God.

"Know ye not that ye are gods" Jesus Christ was not saying this but merely quoting from Psalm 82. He was simply turning the tables on the hypocritical Jewish leaders (who supposed they really knew the scriptures). The gods that were mentioned were those "to whom the Word of God came"...mere mortal men. Anyway, go read the whole Psalm (it's only 8 verses) for the complete context and get back to us.
Great response bro.

Hey, my case is to see god in others ... or should we see non-believers as nothing but evil?

And you might like to also reference Isaiah 41:23 and the context.
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