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Old 01-26-2019, 10:12 AM   #1
recoveringCK
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Any recommendations for christian books, authors, blogs or videos which are sources of better information than LSM publications to that could be discussed with LC devotees or that the devotees could be directed toward?

Of course, getting a mind controlled brain washed devotee to consider alternative interpretations is hopeless, one can always engage in wishful thinking. The idea is not to explain to them the errors of their dogma or hypocrisy of their beloved covert hierarchy but rather provide alternative sources of christian enlightenment through study of the scriptures.
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Old 01-26-2019, 11:36 AM   #2
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Any recommendations for christian books, authors, blogs or videos which are sources of better information than LSM publications to that could be discussed with LC devotees or that the devotees could be directed toward?
One ministry blog I would definitely recommend is the Bare Knuckle Bible by John Myer. I know John personally, and he was one of the best teacher / ministers in the Midwest. His blog has weekly inspiration messages from his ministry to his church outside of Columbus, Ohio. You can sign up for weekly emails from his blog (and no solicitations for money!) John is an inspirational teacher and pastor, in contrast to the tasteless and endless theologians we had in the LC's.

Those who have been on the forum for a while have also been benefited by his online book Future and Hope, which was written for exiting LC'ers in the aftermath of the Midwest quarantines. Hundreds of saints were blessed by his messages. John went further than most while leaving the LC, even getting the boot from the "quarantined" Titus Chu, when he refused to adhere to the so-called "ground" of locality.

I have heard one sad and repeated condemnation of John Myer over the years, probably sourced in TC, that he "only wanted to be a Pastor." Think about that one! As if being a "Pastor" was the greatest evil on planet earth. Compare this criticism to the Apostle Paul's teaching in I Timothy 3.1, "Faithful is the saying, 'If any one is eager to have the oversight of a Church, he desires a noble work.'" It really is telling what the LC crowd would use to condemn others for.

For in-depth studies of Lee's and the Blendeds' errors in a more scholarly format, I would highly recommend Nigel Tomes of Toronto, ON. The church there was heavily attacked by LSM/DCP during the quarantines. Many articles are posted with comments on this forum in the Sub-Forums "Writings of Former Members."

For old-timers who lived thru the chaos of the late '80's, John Ingalls definitive account Speaking The Truth in Love is essential. The members of this forum have attempted to gather everything helpful for LC members. This forum is the best directory to help you in your search, and your efforts to help others.
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Old 01-26-2019, 12:54 PM   #3
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Bro recoveringCK, I don't know what to advise you to read. I've got hundreds of books I could advise, on all kinds of subjects and topics. But why advise something that doesn't interest you?

Let's us know what you are looking for.
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Old 01-27-2019, 12:55 PM   #4
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It does appear additional clarification is required. I was looking for christian writers to whom I could refer local church devotees, friends or family, which might have interpretations of the conventional western bible as a supplement to weekly LSM publications or podcasts. Typical LCer would consider additional books of the bible as not to be used or possibly heretical and not to be considered.

What I was hoping for is more or less mainstream christian sources which teach from the bible and are more likely to be recognized as valid christian teachings without much controversy as a supplement to LSM weekly & podcasts. But it may not be possible to either find bible teachers who stick with the traditional bible or be considered noncontroversial and worth listening to by a LCer.

Hopefully, that clarifies what is wanted.

Thanks for the references provided. I was able to locate the barenuckle org web site by John Mayers but not the “Bare Knuckle Bible.” He looks like a good source of information for Christians looking for a broader view that what many Christians are exposed to.

“Speaking the Truth in Love” by John Ingles was worth rereading and would be recommended for anyone in the LC who was open to more than their prescribed dogma. Where I was in the '80s after his departure or expulsion, reading his writings were strongly discouraged. John Ingles – bad. His writings – bad. Poison. Stay away. Is that true? Not at all. LC prescribed dogma? Yes.

I'll have to review Nigel Tomes from Toronto on the sub-forums in writings of former members.
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Old 01-27-2019, 08:36 PM   #5
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T. Austin Sparks comes to mind. He disagreed with Lee on the ground, teaching the ground of the church is Christ. Lee said he was passing gas. But many have found help with Sparks.

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Lost or excluded books of the bible or ancient scrolls opens up a variety of interesting discussion topics.
Those books are for those that have been out of the LC for awhile, if ever.

I'm reading the Lost Books now. They are very interesting, and telling, about the mindset back in the 1st c.
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Old 01-31-2019, 04:13 PM   #6
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Moved from Alt Views to main forum page.
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Old 01-31-2019, 05:03 PM   #7
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I'm reading the Lost Books now. They are very interesting, and telling, about the mindset back in the 1st c.
What lost books, awareness?

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Old 01-31-2019, 05:12 PM   #8
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...provide alternative sources of christian enlightenment through study of the scriptures.
http://themelios.thegospelcoalition....s-in-reception

Gert Steyn's edited book on the use of Psalms in the epistle to the Hebrews blew my mind. Suddenly there was a whole world out there, waiting for me. People who read scripture, deeply, and thought about it, and talked to each other! Just the use of Psalms in the book of Hebrews and it took 300 pages. Set that next to "The Life-Study of Hebrews" by Witness Lee and suddenly it was like W. Lee made a crayon drawing and put it next to Andrew Wyeth or Winslow Homer. These authors could read the Greek! And the Hebrew! And boy did it make me want to "feed on the word"!

And, awareness, the book cost me nothing. I got it on interlibrary loan. They do this even in Kentucky!
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Old 02-01-2019, 08:18 AM   #9
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I would say that there are many good places to seek things for your own learning and enlightenment. But it is difficult to say that any particular one of those is good for discussion with those in the LC. The reason I say this is that there is just too much closed mindedness to anything not from Lee. (This should sound a lot like the fight going on in Corinth that Paul had to squash.)

But some good authors would include Chuck Swindoll, Scot McKnight, John Piper, Randy Alcorn, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and many others. Even consider reading some of older ones like Merton (Thomas?). Most of the other sources mentioned before would be good. For blogs, I like a variety that go all over the place. Even some that I do not always agree with. Jesus Creed (Scot McKnight), Subversive 1 (Keith Giles), Kevin DeYoung (very Calvinist), Roger Olson, Internet Monk (Mike Mercer — and 2 or so other "Mikes", along with reposts from the now-deceased founder, Michael Spencer). I suggest the podcast "Theology Unplugged." It is no longer active, but still available on iTunes.

None of these is perfect. Some are controversial (esp Keith Giles). They all make you think.

I have a subscription to the online version of Christianity Today that includes their written articles plus many online articles and a couple of regular blogs.

What I get from all of this is the understanding that for all the doctrinal discussions that go on, the Christian life is more about what we do than what we believe (beyond belief in Jesus Christ).

And while I honestly think that these might be too different to present to a LCer, I might be wrong. It might be something beyond the simple repackaging of the same-old-same-old that gets someone's attention. I am constantly challenged to do more than just "carry on as we have" when I read any of these.
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:20 AM   #10
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http://themelios.thegospelcoalition....s-in-reception

And, awareness, the book cost me nothing. I got it on interlibrary loan. They do this even in Kentucky!
Oh no no no! I spotted Bart Ehrman on the site, the noted atheist Bible scholar Untohim loves to hate.

But thanks for the shout out.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:03 AM   #11
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My dear friend Harold, I can say with a firm and clear conscience, I don't hate anyone. I don't hate Bart Ehrman. I don't hate Witness Lee. On the contrary, I do my best, admittedly with mixed results, to speak the truth in love regarding their apostasy and abandonment of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. It may seem incredulous to mention Bart Ehrman and Witness Lee in the same sentence, being that they are ostensibly 180 degrees apart on the religious/world view areas. The simple fact is that they have both abandoned the Gospel as it has been related to us by the Lord Jesus in the Gospels, by the Scripture writing apostles, and finally by those men and women who have given their blood, sweat and tears to preserve and promulgate the living and abiding Word of God to his people, and to a lost and dying world.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:46 AM   #12
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What lost books, awareness?

Drake
Bro Drake, you're full of surprises. Your interests must be wider than I presumed. Thanks for askin'.

The Lost Books of the Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden: Banned Books from the Bible.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Books-Bi.../dp/B0044XVCA6

But brother, they aren't canonical books. And Untohim surely hint gonna be pleased wit dat.

But it's got writings by Jesus in it.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:18 PM   #13
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Any recommendations for christian books, authors, blogs or videos which are sources of better information than LSM publications to that could be discussed with LC devotees or that the devotees could be directed toward?

Of course, getting a mind controlled brain washed devotee to consider alternative interpretations is hopeless, one can always engage in wishful thinking. The idea is not to explain to them the errors of their dogma or hypocrisy of their beloved covert hierarchy but rather provide alternative sources of Christian enlightenment through study of the scriptures.

Before this thread gets too sideways, I wanted to bring the opening post forward. Let's try to honor recoveringCK's original questions/requests here. Books, authors, blogs and videos which direct away from "mainstream" Christianity are not what we want to refer Local Churchers to - they are already confused and mislead enough as it is without taking them from the frying pan into the fire

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Old 02-03-2019, 03:33 PM   #14
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Thanks for the reminder! I think "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis would be a great read for someone transitioning out of the LC cultish version of Christianity into orthodox Christianity.

You can download a pdf version of the book from here.

https://www.truthaccordingtoscriptur...p#.XFdsfslOmBY
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Old 02-03-2019, 06:20 PM   #15
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Study of "The Book of Revelation" by G.K. Beale.

"“A significant contribution to our understanding of Revelation. . . . This commentary will certainly provide considerable insight into John’s often perplexing vision. In particular, Beale’s grasp of the Greek grammar of Revelation is outstanding. Too few scholars today have the linguistic expertise to furnish the reader with such extensive and thoughtful notes. . . . A truly important work that should be consulted as a reference by serious scholars of the Apocalypse.” ~Journal of Biblical Literature review

The problem I had after leaving the LC was that every book I read, I thought, "That's not God's economy". I was completely brain-dead. Inert. This is a good book to take Witness Lee's brain-washing into. See if it survives 1300 pages of compact erudition and tight argumentation.
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getting a mind controlled brain washed devotee to consider alternative interpretations is hopeless, one can always engage in wishful thinking. The idea is not to explain to them the errors of their dogma or hypocrisy of their beloved covert hierarchy but rather provide alternative sources of christian enlightenment through study of the scriptures.
Beale helped me to begin to respect the Christian authors out there. Maybe they're not as dumb as Lee said they were... I began to consider...

https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-In...velation+beale

I also like Bauckham's work
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521356911...t_sb_ti_sims_3

There is also an abridged, 500 pp study of Revelation by Beale. “In this volume we are treated to a briefer version of Greg Beale’s massive commentary on Revelation, but that work’s exegetical depth and theological profundity are still present in the abbreviated volume. No one can afford to preach, teach, or write on Revelation without reading Beale.” ~Thomas R. Schreiner -- Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:35 PM   #16
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Thanks for the reminder! I think "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis would be a great read for someone transitioning out of the LC cultish version of Christianity into orthodox Christianity.

You can download a pdf version of the book from here.

https://www.truthaccordingtoscriptur...p#.XFdsfslOmBY
Got it. Thanks. Converted it to Kindle mobi.
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Old 02-04-2019, 08:23 AM   #17
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Beale helped me to begin to respect the Christian authors out there. Maybe they're not as dumb as Lee said they were... I began to consider...
People like Beale and Steyn were influential in my post-LC transformation in views. It's not just what they wrote about or how they said it, but that there was someone out there worth reading. Amazing discovery! Christian scholars who read Greek and Hebrew, and who conversed with others who did the same, and who didn't presume to have the last word, or claim that all other views but their own were "confused" and "twisted" and "dark." How very... Christian.

This forum was helpful in dispelling the myth in my mind that Lee, like Nee before him, was somehow beyond error, and holding "God's oracle", and everything he said was profitable, even if I didn't get it (mooing cow that I was). Everything he said and wrote was "divine and mystical." Considering his work (and actions) critically on this forum was extremely helpful for me to break free from such thought strongholds.

Of nearly equal importance, and following that, was the discovery that there were Christian authors and thinkers who were profitable for the seeking soul. I offered those few as a representative sample. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds, many of whom I won't read in my lifetime. But the point is, they're out there. And if you don't seek, you won't find. (But if you do seek, you'll find. It is a divine promise).

The "recovery" narrative was based on: #1) the premise that Watchman Nee read every book worth reading (the fabled 3,000-book library of Christian classics); and #2) the premise that nothing else useful came out once Nee began to, ahem, copy Jessie Penn-Lewis [aka 'Spiritual Man']. Suddenly all useful Christian thought came from only one fount, they said.

That second premise is self-serving nonsense. It's so far off base one hardly knows where to begin. I'll make one point: the Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in 1947, didn't begin to see the light of day until the 1970s and 1980s. So scholars are only recently (1990 - present) publicly assessing them. Think of the Book of Enoch, quoted by Jude and referenced by Peter. Or the Assumption of Moses, referenced by Jude. These documents were part of the shared understanding of the times.

Psalm 119 was missing a verse, and they found it in the Dead Sea Scrolls (they knew it was missing because the Psalm is an acrostic poem, alphabetically-arranged). I daresay that made it into the RecV, or should have. My point is, there's so, so much more than one 'missing verse'. And that's just the DSS. Our conversation should be informed by the larger Christian conversation going on around us.
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:21 AM   #18
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My favorite youtube ministry is pastor Gene Kim of BBC international. They interpret all scripture from a 'rightly dividing' perspective. Pastor Kim doesnt pull any punches and you won't catch him acting spiritual or feigning grace in any way. In fact, you could almost call him offensive, depending on who's on the receiving end.....I love his ministry! Ridgidly KJV only, bible thumping, truth telling! Super refreshing coming off of a long steady diet of Lee, Lee and some more Lee. Kim hooks people with popular topics and how they might relate to Gods word, I believe, to get the gospel into them, ultimately. Jesus bless you in your seeking!
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Old 02-07-2019, 07:11 AM   #19
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Got it. Thanks. Converted it to Kindle mobi.

Just started re-reading Mere Christianity and realized that the first section might be too basic for most Christians, might want to skip over to the next sections on Christian behavior?
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Old 02-07-2019, 07:34 AM   #20
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Just started re-reading Mere Christianity and realized that the first section might be too basic for most Christians, might want to skip over to the next sections on Christian behavior?
The Bible (no kidding, read it)

Mere Christianity, The Problem of Pain and The Great Divorce, C.S. Lewis

Pray Big, Will Davis Jr.

The Purpose-Driven Life, Rick Warren.

The Battlefield of the Mind, Joyce Meyer.

The Case for Faith and The Case for Christ, Lee Strobel

More than a Carpenter, Josh McDowell

The Reason for God, Timothy Keller

Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe, Mark Driscoll and Gerry Breshears

Basis Christianity and The Living Church, John Stott

The Practice of the Presence of God, Brother Lawrence

Blessed in the Darkness, Joel Osteen

Knowing God, J.I. Packer

Any Collection of Andrew Murray or A.W. Tozer
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:36 PM   #21
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I am going to list just a few of the teachers/theologians/apologists that have helped me greatly over the past 15 years or so. There are many others of course, but I'm quite certain that other members will pick up the slack.

Ravi Zacharias YouTube Channel

D.A. "Don" Carson YouTube Channel

Tim Keller YouTube Channel

Systematic Theology
An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine
Wayne Grudem

I know, I know...to Local Churchers the title to this book is probably a huge double-negative. Thanks to the teachings of Witness Lee, the very word "theology" is already negative enough, but when you ad that evil word "systematic" to it... why, it will send the average LC member into a fit of resentment that you would even suggest that they are in any need of "An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine". But take it from someone who knows...Anyone who has been a follower of Witness Lee and his ministry for more than a few months is in desperate need of salvation from the helter skelter, home-brewed, make-it-up-as-he-went-along, unsystematic "theology"of Witness Lee.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:50 AM   #22
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To 'undo' Witness Lee's interpretation of genesis and the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil'... (in which he did a subtle switch of words and said 'knowledge AND good and evil', onto which a whole construction of error is built), I suggest the following book: 'There were two trees in the garden' by Rick Joyner. This book describes the fall and the condition of fallen humanity in a way that makes great sense and you can see in practical life, not just theory.

Slight warning: It is a personally challenging book to digest, it changed my perspective profoundly, in ways I'm grateful for...
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:05 PM   #23
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I wish to add, Rick joyner's understanding of this topic also sheds some light on Witness Lee himself. The central idea is that it is the good of the tree if knowledge that is as harmful or more so, than the evil. As it is the good that deceives us into believing in ourselves, thus causing us to excuse or deny the evil and giving it reign alongside the good. Eventually nullifying the good.

And isn't that exactly what our friend Lee examples? He was a the crest of the wave of something good... even great. He lacked maturity, accountability, and more profoundly, an understanding of the danger of a self-centered knowledge of good and evil. Thereby elevating his opinion of himself to a dangerous level.

Let us take the lesson of his mistake to our own hearts, beware, we are all vulnerable.( I know this, as I know myself!)
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:03 PM   #24
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My favorite youtube ministry is pastor Gene Kim of BBC international. They interpret all scripture from a 'rightly dividing' perspective. Pastor Kim doesnt pull any punches and you won't catch him acting spiritual or feigning grace in any way. In fact, you could almost call him offensive, depending on who's on the receiving end.....I love his ministry! Ridgidly KJV only, bible thumping, truth telling! Super refreshing coming off of a long steady diet of Lee, Lee and some more Lee. Kim hooks people with popular topics and how they might relate to Gods word, I believe, to get the gospel into them, ultimately. Jesus bless you in your seeking!
Hey !! Ditto!!
I started watching his vids a few months ago. I love his explanation on how the entire bible is written for us but not everything is written to us. He breaks it down so that it is easy to understand and makes sense. He is very clear and very down to earth. Comparing Lee's teachings, Lee did not know how to rightly divide the Word of Truth. He was busy building his local church kingdom manipulating, confusing and deceiving the saints.

I don't know that I agree with everything Gene Kim teaches but as Romans 12:3 says God has allotted to each a measure of faith. . I love his teachings. He has helped me understand God's Word in a very fresh, insightful, exciting way.

Good to know there is someone else here who loves his teachings!
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Old 02-09-2019, 12:36 PM   #25
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isn't that exactly what our friend Lee examplifies? He was a the crest of the wave of something good... even great. He lacked maturity, accountability, and more profoundly, an understanding of the danger of a self-centered knowledge of good and evil. Thereby elevating his opinion of himself to a dangerous level.

Let us take the lesson of his mistake to our own hearts, beware, we are all vulnerable.( I know this, as I know myself!)
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For believers there's one "great spiritual person" - his name is Jesus Christ. Anyone else who makes such pretensions is deluded. This is Christianity 101, folks.

Now, at the Bema, if Christ calls you higher - wonderful! We all rejoice. But don't presume anything before that day. ~Luke 14:8
One wonders how many in the group that stresses the "so subjective Christ" feel inner unease or disquiet as the man up on the dias talks of "great spiritual persons" and "spiritual giants". And just what do you think your unease is telling you? It's a warning, should you heed it.

Those who claim greatness in this age (or conversely, who put everyone else down as inferiour) are actually projecting their own unmet needs, their "non-Christ", on others. When you see it, it's so obvious you wonder, How can anyone not see this? It's one of the most basic and foundational Christian principles there are. It's stressed repeatedly by Jesus in both its positive and negative aspects, and echoed by Peter, James, John, and Paul in the epistles.

But that's where home-brewed theology leads - into the house of mirrors. All you can see is yourself and the world you've created. Then you recruit others into your fantasy camp, and project your needs onto them. Read a HWMR outline sometime: full of "we must" and "we should" and "we need to". Notice how the focus has left Jesus Christ and is on the dissatisfied subjective self, writ large? And talk about a return to the law!

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand fast, therefore, and don't once again be entangled in the yoke of slavery."
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Old 02-09-2019, 04:57 PM   #26
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Default Re: Recommended Christian Books, Authors, Blogs or Videos

Top 10 Books I would strongly suggest every Christian to have and read prayerfully:

1) 'Knowing God' — Dr. J.I. Packer
2) 'Desiring God' — John Piper
3) 'The Holiness of God' — Dr. R.C. Sproul
4) 'What Jesus Demands from the World' — John Piper
5) 'The Discipline of Grace' — Jerry Bridges
6) 'Strange Fire' — Dr. John McArthur
7) 'Knowing Scripture' — Dr. R.C. Sproul
8) 'How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth' & 'How to Read the Bible Book by Book' — Fee Stuart
9) 'The Sovereignty of God' — A.W. Pink
10) 'The Hole in our Holiness' — Kevin DeYoung

You can smell the Calvinistic flavors over those books. LOL Just sayin'
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Old 02-09-2019, 07:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Recommended Christian Books, Authors, Blogs or Videos

Some more contemporary books:
The Explicit Gospel, Matt Chandler

Crazy Love, Francis Chan

Radical, David Platt

The Hole in Our Gospel, Richard Stearns

The Three Relationships: The Essence of God's Plan, G. Bourque
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:24 PM   #28
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Default Re: Recommended Christian Books, Authors, Blogs or Videos

The Spirit-filled Life, Charles Stanley

Grace, Max Lucado

Orthodoxy, G.K. Chesterton
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