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Old 09-18-2020, 07:53 AM   #1
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Default LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

Hello all, I am representing all the queerfolk, trans, bisexual, basically lgbtqia, since the last one landed in a disaster. and I would like to form a civilized discussion. No name calling etc. So what are ex-LC members experience with those they know who have left the church due to their own or friends/ family members’ different sexuality and gender identity issues? and what are you guys’ stance on this hot topic.
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Old 09-18-2020, 08:24 AM   #2
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Hello all, I am representing all the queerfolk, trans, bisexual, basically lgbtqia, since the last one landed in a disaster. and I would like to form a civilized discussion. No name calling etc. So what are ex-LC members experience with those they know who have left the church due to their own or friends/ family members’ different sexuality and gender identity issues? and what are you guys’ stance on this hot topic.
Hi and welcome back! I think you are the same person that started a LBGTQ discussion last year, are you not? I thought that discussion was civilized and don't remember any name calling . . . but I looked for the thread to review it a fresh and couldn't find it - perhaps it was deleted?

In any case, are you that sister who was having a relationship with another sister in the LC? If so, how has all that progressed?

Personally, I don't know anybody who left the LC regarding those types of issues, it least it's not an issue I know about.
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Old 09-18-2020, 09:01 AM   #3
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Hi and welcome back! I think you are the same person that started a LBGTQ discussion last year, are you not? I thought that discussion was civilized and don't remember any name calling . . . but I looked for the thread to review it a fresh and couldn't find it - perhaps it was deleted?
Yes deleted. She and I are close long distant friends. She asked me to contact Untohim to have him delete the thread. It was shameful. I used to be the moderator of AltVs, until I departed over how she was treated on this forum.

Basically, LCD smells like the local church. Not because it's made up of exLCers, but because so many members still think like LCer's.
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Old 09-18-2020, 09:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

Down boy, awareness, down boy! You're cruzin for a bruzin my man.

As always, Harold, you are free to start your own Internet forum that will smell anyway you like! It's easy, and it's just about free. And as a cool side benefit, you can bellyache and vent all about UntoHim to your little heart's desire. Just think of all the fun you can have! Just say the word and I'll pay the setup fee and first months rent.

In the meantime, since you're playin on my dime, feel free to just answer the poster's question without involving moi.

-
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Old 09-18-2020, 09:36 AM   #5
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Yes deleted. She and I are close long distant friends. She asked me to contact Untohim to have him delete the thread. It was shameful. I used to be the moderator of AltVs, until I departed over how she was treated on this forum.

Basically, LCD smells like the local church. Not because it's made up of exLCers, but because so many members still think like LCer's.
Maybe I didn't follow that thread long enough, but was there actual "name calling"? In any case, that shouldn't be condoned by us practicing believers in the Son of His love!
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Old 09-18-2020, 09:55 AM   #6
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Basically, LCD smells like the local church. Not because it's made up of exLCers, but because so many members still think like LCer's.
And here we have our old friend awareness once again criticizing folks for how they think.

Even those on the way far left like avowed Wiccan zealot J.K.Rowling et.al. are protesting the ever-growing demands from the LGBTQ cancel culture community. Remember Rowling expressly wrote her Harry Potter books to introduce a whole generation of young people to Pagan Witchcraft.

But how dare anyone resist their demands or "think differently."
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Old 09-18-2020, 11:24 AM   #7
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Maybe I didn't follow that thread long enough, but was there actual "name calling"? In any case, that shouldn't be condoned by us practicing believers in the Son of His love!
Son of love ... right!!!

We love those of ambiguous genitalia, without question. God made them that way. We can't insult Him for His handy work.

But then when God makes people queer, we've got to shun them, delegitimize them, dehumanize them ... as abominations of God.

Where's the love Jesus taught and lived?

Jud_1:21* Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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Old 09-18-2020, 11:55 AM   #8
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Son of love ... right!!!

We love those of ambiguous genitalia, without question. God made them that way. We can't insult Him for His handy work.

But then when God makes people queer, we've got to shun them, delegitimatize them, dehumanize them ... as abominations of God.

Where's the love Jesus taught and lived?

Jud_1:21* Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
The foundation for all God does regarding us is love. However, man chose this mess we're in now, and God came in Christ to rescue us . . . because of His love for His created creatures. Only His Spirit can separate what is of Him and what has been man-made - whether as a result of the original error of our forefather Adam, or some subsequent decision.

Therefore, the idea that God made some people LGBTQ is not a settled fact in my mind: Because God created us, then man fell and our glorious, created bodies became flesh. Flesh, which all humans have, is now capable of all sorts of things not in-line with Him.
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Old 09-18-2020, 05:56 PM   #9
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Therefore, the idea that God made some people LGBTQ is not a settled fact in my mind: Because God created us, then man fell and our glorious, created bodies became flesh. Flesh, which all humans have, is now capable of all sorts of things not in-line with Him.
Bone of my bone flesh of my flesh, Adam said when God yanked is rib out and made Eve. So they were flesh before the fall -- and Eve wasn't made of dirt, so she was superior to dirt made Adam.

Are you a heterosexual? If so, is that a settled fact in your mind? Then it's prolly a settled fact in their minds.

And since we don't know what's in-line with God, we should leave it up to God ... and love the lbgtq brothers and sisters just as we do heterosexuals.
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Old 09-18-2020, 07:47 PM   #10
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But then when God makes people queer, we've got to shun them, delegitimize them, dehumanize them ... as abominations of God.

Where's the love Jesus taught and lived?
What planet are you from?

Those of Judeo-Christian background treat gay and lesbians better than any place on earth. Ever study what muslim, communist, or fascist countries do to them?

Methinks your anti-Christian bias is distorting the facts.

Matter-of-fact the gay and lesbian community in the US now enjoys the highest per capita income than any other group. Where is the discrimination? Also, the gay and lesbian community is protected by hate crime legislation which I am not entitled to. If someone kills me because they hate the way I look, there is no hate crime for that, but if the reverse occurs, I am subject to extra judgment. This simply means that their life is more valuable than mine. Think about that.

So much for "dehumanizing and delegitimizing."

It's time to grow up and get over whining about some phony victim status.
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Old 09-18-2020, 08:33 PM   #11
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What planet are you from?

Those of Judeo-Christian background treat gay and lesbians better than any place on earth. Ever study what muslim, communist, or fascist countries do to them?

Methinks your anti-Christian bias is distorting the facts.

Matter-of-fact the gay and lesbian community in the US now enjoys the highest per capita income than any other group. Where is the discrimination? Also, the gay and lesbian community is protected by hate crime legislation which I am not entitled to. If someone kills me because they hate the way I look, there is no hate crime for that, but if the reverse occurs, I am subject to extra judgment. This simply means that their life is more valuable than mine. Think about that.

So much for "dehumanizing and delegitimizing."

It's time to grow up and get over whining about some phony victim status.
Hi Brother Ohio, so covert name calling is when you imply that Awareness is from a different planet and calling him a victim, even though he just shares different views from you. He probably surrounds himself with others that are different such as you and I do. But that doesnt mean he is from Mars or the future. He still lives in the era that we all do.

While I do agree that some countries physically jail and stone gay people to death and The U. S now legally supports gay marriage, there are still movements like preventing trans people from serving in the army, not creating safe environments or toilets (unisex bathrooms) for them. Christianity had a long history of discrimination, harrassment (examples: Stonewall and AIDS response to same sex couples, not legitimizing their relationships as a family member when one member of a couple wants to visit the other spouse/partner in the hospital at the death bed). Mental abuse and unacceptance is in some ways worse than physical death (an example of gays killed is the story of Matthew Shepherd). It’s a slower form of death, the person suffers from mental anguish, rejection, bullying that lead to higher suicide rates, depression, anxiety, and trauma. Take it from a sister who has first hand experience.
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Old 09-18-2020, 08:40 PM   #12
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Hi and welcome back! I think you are the same person that started a LBGTQ discussion last year, are you not? I thought that discussion was civilized and don't remember any name calling . . . but I looked for the thread to review it a fresh and couldn't find it - perhaps it was deleted?

In any case, are you that sister who was having a relationship with another sister in the LC? If so, how has all that progressed?

Personally, I don't know anybody who left the LC regarding those types of issues, it least it's not an issue I know about.
Hello Sons of Glory, thanks for the warm welcome back. And yes, I am still with my partner, we are now both happily married. I remembered being called a “troll” and “hypocrite” a few times in the last thread but I want to put all that behind us and move forward I decided that the other thread wasnt productive due to being mindful that other ex LCers coming across it who are also struggling with their sexual/gender identity, which may lead to hopelessness for them.
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Old 09-18-2020, 08:50 PM   #13
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Bone of my bone flesh of my flesh, Adam said when God yanked is rib out and made Eve. So they were flesh before the fall -- and Eve wasn't made of dirt, so she was superior.

And since we don't know what's in-line with God, we should leave it up to God ... and love the lbgtq brothers and sisters just as we do heterosexuals.
Just a side note, before Adam and Eve discovered their nakedness, I’m wondering if they had genetalia to begin with, especailly since procreation was not in God’s interest until AFTER the fall. And were Adam and Eve like innicent children who did not know what sex was? or did they romp around in the Garden of Eden not knowing what they were doing? Why did they hide from God? was it because they were naughty and found out what their sexual organs were for? These are a lot of unanswered questions.

And Awareness, if you do indeed start your own website, there may be some lgbtq brothers and sisters and second generation church kids who may join who have previously visited this site but did not feel safe posting on here. For now, they are in this secret facebook group that I am in and there and there are about 20 of them, and I have talked to at least seven of them. I wonder if same sex attractions are immoral, why are there so many of us?
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Old 09-18-2020, 10:23 PM   #14
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And here we have our old friend awareness once again criticizing folks for how they think.

Even those on the way far left like avowed Wiccan zealot J.K.Rowling et.al. are protesting the ever-growing demands from the LGBTQ cancel culture community. Remember Rowling expressly wrote her Harry Potter books to introduce a whole generation of young people to Pagan Witchcraft.

But how dare anyone resist their demands or "think differently."
I know that this is a little off topic but im curious, which sources did you come upon that expressedly stated Jk Rowling herself endorsed Wiccan craft? I’m just wondering because I thought the books were fictional and meant to be read that way.
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Old 09-19-2020, 12:54 AM   #15
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I know that this is a little off topic but im curious, which sources did you come upon that expressedly stated Jk Rowling herself endorsed Wiccan craft? I’m just wondering because I thought the books were fictional and meant to be read that way.
There are links in the post.
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Old 09-19-2020, 01:16 AM   #16
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Hi Brother Ohio, so covert name calling is when you imply that Awareness is from a different planet and calling him a victim, even though he just shares different views from you. He probably surrounds himself with others that are different such as you and I do. But that doesnt mean he is from Mars or the future. He still lives in the era that we all do.

While I do agree that some countries physically jail and stone gay people to death and The U. S now legally supports gay marriage, there are still movements like preventing trans people from serving in the army, not creating safe environments or toilets (unisex bathrooms) for them. Christianity had a long history of discrimination, harrassment (examples: Stonewall and AIDS response to same sex couples, not legitimizing their relationships as a family member when one member of a couple wants to visit the other spouse/partner in the hospital at the death bed). Mental abuse and unacceptance is in some ways worse than physical death (an example of gays killed is the story of Matthew Shepherd). It’s a slower form of death, the person suffers from mental anguish, rejection, bullying that lead to higher suicide rates, depression, anxiety, and trauma. Take it from a sister who has first hand experience.
"Christianity had a long history of discrimination?" -- This is your response? So did Aborigines, Native Americans, First Nation peoples. Every group of people who ever lived have a long history of discrimination against gay and lesbians. You then need to judge the entire world. Why just judge Christians of old? Christians and Judeo-Christian Western societies have taken the lead in protecting gays and lesbians. Why don't you acknowledge their help?

Neither did you answer how many in the gay and lesbian community have voiced their disagreement with the demands of transgenders. For example, trans athletes are beginning to destroy women's sports. All of the Title Nine gains might be wiped out eventually. Many are concluding that male and female sports can no longer be segregated, and unisex sports are the logical conclusion. Even gay and lesbian supporters are starting to realize the incredibly dangerous ramifications that trans people impose upon society.

There is no military in the history of the world which has accepted trans recruits for obvious reasons. You need to rethink this position. The US military is not a social experiment. I disagree that the entire society should be forced to change in order to accommodate those who don't like their own body. This is not discrimination!

"Covert name calling?" O my, are you sensitive. I am only addressing ideas and concepts here. It is merely a normal response to wild ideas to say, "what planet are you from?"
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Old 09-19-2020, 06:52 AM   #17
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Hello Sons of Glory, thanks for the warm welcome back. And yes, I am still with my partner, we are now both happily married. I remembered being called a “troll” and “hypocrite” a few times in the last thread but I want to put all that behind us and move forward I decided that the other thread wasnt productive due to being mindful that other ex LCers coming across it who are also struggling with their sexual/gender identity, which may lead to hopelessness for them.
I know gays who are deep in the closet, while staying in the local church. It would be nice if this thread allowed them to come out of the closet.

But fat chance. The LC will always force those that can't help being gay, into the closet ... or out the door. And LCD is the same.

Thank God for SerenityLives. She grew up in the LC, and she still turned out to be gay. Proving, it's not environmentally caused, but naturally caused.

So ... Paul didn't know what he was talking about. Or he was speaking to an audience of that day ... not to us today.
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Old 09-19-2020, 07:32 AM   #18
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I skimmed the thread thus far but decided not to engage in the bickering.

Instead, I want to say I love Jesus. I'm a follower of Christ and the Great Divine. I'm also unapologetically Bi. I don't believe it is a sin. I believe the Bible has been mistranslated and misinterpretted making people assume that it is a sin.

My attraction to women has always been there, but part of me assumed all women felt that way (that women are attractive). Also, with homosexuality being judged culturally as I was growing up, I did my best to ignore those feelings.

It was the view of homosexuality within the church vs the *reality* of love shared between homosexuals, and compared to the verse "you will know them by their fruit" ultimately made me re-examine everything.

Is the fruit good that leads people to commit suicide after being kicked out and cut-off from their family because they love someone they "shouldn't"?

Is the fruit good that causes people to attack and kill homosexuals?

Or is the fruit good when you celebrate genuine love between two consenting adults who are enriched and built up by each other? Who can raise beautiful and well-adjusted children?

I prayed to God to reveal to me who He wanted me to be- who He designed me to be. I have kept my eyes on my God and He has led my down beautiful paths. I have accepted who I am, all of me, and I am much happier for it all. <3
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Old 09-19-2020, 07:59 AM   #19
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What planet are you from?

Those of Judeo-Christian background treat gay and lesbians better than any place on earth. Ever study what muslim, communist, or fascist countries do to them?

Methinks your anti-Christian bias is distorting the facts.

Matter-of-fact the gay and lesbian community in the US now enjoys the highest per capita income than any other group. Where is the discrimination? Also, the gay and lesbian community is protected by hate crime legislation which I am not entitled to. If someone kills me because they hate the way I look, there is no hate crime for that, but if the reverse occurs, I am subject to extra judgment. This simply means that their life is more valuable than mine. Think about that.

So much for "dehumanizing and delegitimizing."

It's time to grow up and get over whining about some phony victim status.
Gosh, if only you could give up projecting.

I have a cousin, not far up the road from me, whom I love dearly ; a conservative Southern Baptist.

Around 10 yrs ago or so I met his grown son. A clean cut looking Christian, writing Christian songs, and creating Christian CDs. I spotted right off the bat that he was gay. I talked to my cousin about it and he blew up at me, denying any possibility of it.

A couple of yrs ago his son introduced his gay lover to his father. All hell blew up. A Facebook war ensued between them, in public display, where his father Butch called his son Roger, an abomination to God, and Roger calling his dad a bigot.

There's nothing phony about that.

What's phony is, your defense of "Christianity," like it's been perfect ever since Jesus.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:56 AM   #20
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Hello Sons of Glory, thanks for the warm welcome back. And yes, I am still with my partner, we are now both happily married. I remembered being called a “troll” and “hypocrite” a few times in the last thread but I want to put all that behind us and move forward I decided that the other thread wasn't productive due to being mindful that other ex LCers coming across it who are also struggling with their sexual/gender identity, which may lead to hopelessness for them.
Well al the best (Jesus) to you and yours!

Sexuality is certainly a fascinating thing, to be sure. So much of the drive to satisfy it are hormones raging in our bodies. I muse on that from time to time, because when younger we think it's SUCH A BIG DEAL! But as I'm getting older, the hormones aren't clouding my thinking nearly as strongly as before, which I find to be a good thing!

And it's not clear to me how it will all be with our new bodies. Jesus said in Matthew 22:30, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." So what does this mean? Will there not be gender or we just don't get married . . . or both? However, God did make Adam & Eve in His image and called them "good," so gender was in His plan.

In any case, we will be free of the flesh of sin and all the confusion will be gone!
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Old 09-19-2020, 01:13 PM   #21
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And here we have our old friend awareness once again criticizing folks for how they think.

Even those on the way far left like avowed Wiccan zealot J.K.Rowling et.al. are protesting the ever-growing demands from the LGBTQ cancel culture community. Remember Rowling expressly wrote her Harry Potter books to introduce a whole generation of young people to Pagan Witchcraft.

But how dare anyone resist their demands or "think differently."
Check out wikipedia’s page of fake news sites, which includes your empirenews.net. Also this thread is not supposed to be focused on issues of the “far left”. Lets return to our discussion of lgbtq issues
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Old 09-19-2020, 02:23 PM   #22
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Check out wikipedia’s page of fake news sites, which includes your empirenews.net. Also this thread is not supposed to be focused on issues of the “far left”. Lets return to our discussion of lgbtq issues
But fake news we like is not fake news. It's factual .... hahahaha
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Old 09-19-2020, 02:44 PM   #23
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But fake news we like is not fake news. It's factual .... hahahaha
Okay, it's embarrassing to quote fake sources. Glad none of the rest of us ever fell for that . . .

And before we get back to the main topic, isn't there one or two (or more) additional letters added to LGBTQ that we're leaving out?
SEE HERE: LGBTQIA
Which also links to HERE:LGBTQQIP2SAA
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Old 09-19-2020, 03:07 PM   #24
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Okay, it's embarrassing to quote fake sources. Glad none of the rest of us ever fell for that . . .

And before we get back to the main topic, isn't there one or two (or more) additional letters added to LGBTQ that we're leaving out?
SEE HERE: LGBTQIA
Which also links to HERE:LGBTQQIP2SAA
Aren't both all inclusive ... encompassing everyone? I like that. I fit in. Thank you Jesus!
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Old 09-19-2020, 03:16 PM   #25
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Aren't both all inclusive ... encompassing everyone? I like that. I fit in. Thank you Jesus!
So the expanded one "LGBTQQIP2SAA" stands for:

>Lesbian
>Gay
>Bisexual
>Transgender
>Two Q’s to cover both bases (queer and questioning);
>I for Intersex, people with two sets of genitalia or various chromosomal differences;
>P for Pansexual, people who refuse to be pinned down on the Kinsey scale;
>2S for Two-Spirit, a tradition in many First Nations that considers sexual minorities to have both male and female spirits;
>A for Asexual, people who do not identify with any orientation; and
>A for Allies, recognizing that the community thrives best with loving supporters, although they are not really part of the community itself.
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Old 09-19-2020, 05:46 PM   #26
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Pope Francis tells parents of LGBT children that 'God loves them as they are'

Francis is the best Pope ever.

Thank you Jesus!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cept-them.html
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Old 09-19-2020, 08:10 PM   #27
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Just a side note, before Adam and Eve discovered their nakedness, I’m wondering if they had genetalia to begin with, especailly since procreation was not in God’s interest until AFTER the fall. And were Adam and Eve like innicent children who did not know what sex was? or did they romp around in the Garden of Eden not knowing what they were doing? Why did they hide from God? was it because they were naughty and found out what their sexual organs were for? These are a lot of unanswered questions.

And Awareness, if you do indeed start your own website, there may be some lgbtq brothers and sisters and second generation church kids who may join who have previously visited this site but did not feel safe posting on here. For now, they are in this secret facebook group that I am in and there and there are about 20 of them, and I have talked to at least seven of them. I wonder if same sex attractions are immoral, why are there so many of us?
After God created both Adam and Eve, Genesis 2:24-25 says:

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

The uniting and the one flesh is sex. It seems to me that God was interested in procreation before the fall (which didn't occur until Genesis 3:6), so they would have had genitalia before the fall.

They hid from God because they disobeyed Him. Any kid who's disobeyed their parents and got caught knows why they hid!

The shame they felt from their nakedness can be interpreted many ways, and has been. I guess there are two parts to it: shame before each other, and shame before God.

The shame before each other is interesting, given they were a couple, and couples see each other naked. Although I've never discussed it with anyone, I personally concluded that since the sinful fallen nature would be passed on to the human race through procreative sex, that's why the nakedness became shameful -- because it was tied to what would be the cascading devastating effects of the fall. That's just my own thoughts though.

The shame before God is so interesting too. Adam and Eve did what the leadership in the LC does in the face of sin - covered themselves up in an attempt to hide their sin. But that's not what God is about. God wants us to turn to Him with our sin and shame so He can be the one to cover us in a way better than we ever could, which is exactly what He did with Adam and Eve.

People who identify as LGB or T account for approximately 5% of the U.S. population.
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Old 09-19-2020, 11:51 PM   #28
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People who identify as LGB or T account for approximately 5% of the U.S. population.
Wow that is around 16 million Americans! And if you look at UCLA’s statistics, among millenials, it’s nearly 25 percent. Is it because society is more accepting of them to report higher numbers, cultural influences on shame, or nature/nurture?
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Old 09-20-2020, 12:03 AM   #29
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I skimmed the thread thus far but decided not to engage in the bickering.

Instead, I want to say I love Jesus. I'm a follower of Christ and the Great Divine. I'm also unapologetically Bi. I don't believe it is a sin. I believe the Bible has been mistranslated and misinterpretted making people assume that it is a sin.

My attraction to women has always been there, but part of me assumed all women felt that way (that women are attractive). Also, with homosexuality being judged culturally as I was growing up, I did my best to ignore those feelings.

It was the view of homosexuality within the church vs the *reality* of love shared between homosexuals, and compared to the verse "you will know them by their fruit" ultimately made me re-examine everything.

Is the fruit good that leads people to commit suicide after being kicked out and cut-off from their family because they love someone they "shouldn't"?

Is the fruit good that causes people to attack and kill homosexuals?

Or is the fruit good when you celebrate genuine love between two consenting adults who are enriched and built up by each other? Who can raise beautiful and well-adjusted children?

I prayed to God to reveal to me who He wanted me to be- who He designed me to be. I have kept my eyes on my God and He has led my down beautiful paths. I have accepted who I am, all of me, and I am much happier for it all. <3
Thanks for sharing your testimony. I also agree that the first commandment Jesus told us is to love our neighbor. And if you think about all the gay conversion camps, most of them don’t work. In fact, more kids end up having more depressive thoughts and higher likelihood of attempting or commiting suicide after being sent to these camps. This is why in California, it is illegal for therapists to do “gay conversion therapy” on children and adolescents even if their family/parents insist on it. Even the English word “homosexuality” was a mistranslation from the Greek words for describing males having nonconsensual sex with their male slaves. You have to look at the historical and cultural context in whoch Paul and other New testament authors were writing in, during the Roman times where all types of sex and temple prostitutes were common and not frowned upon by Greeks and Romans.
My first attraction of women started when I was in elementary school. I remembered a vivid dream of myself after Sunday children’s meeting, where I dreamed I was “Adam” with this obscure female in this garden (we were learning about the Genesis story) Now I dont know if I was already experiencing sin at the time, but it sure felt real.
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Old 09-20-2020, 02:54 AM   #30
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Thanks for this topic.

I am bisexual, and I really found it hard to accept myself during my teenage years and even early 20s.
I tried to push it down and "pray the gay" away for the longest time.

In my mid 20s I realised I could not deny that I was bisexual any longer. But still being in the LC made that hard. It was like the longer I stayed in the more homophobic preaching I heard from elders in the LC.

Every wedding I attended felt like it was being used as a lesson to push heterosexuality as the only right way.

This wasn't the only reason I left, but even so, when I first left and then met Christians who were also in the LGBT community and supported for it by their church, I felt envious.

I don't feel that way particularly anymore, but I do worry a lot for the queer kids still in the church.
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Old 09-20-2020, 03:08 AM   #31
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Since I accidentally posted this anonymously I am going to add that this.

I am a woman and next week will be celebrating my one year anniversary with my girlfriend who is a beautiful transgender woman.
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Old 09-20-2020, 06:43 AM   #32
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Since I accidentally posted this anonymously I am going to add that this.

I am a woman and next week will be celebrating my one year anniversary with my girlfriend who is a beautiful transgender woman.
So ... you have returned to God's original plan of one man and one woman?
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Old 09-20-2020, 06:51 AM   #33
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So ... you have returned to God's original plan of one man and one woman?
No Ohio, she mentioned that she is with a person who identifies as a woman. They are both female gender. So they are a lesbian couple who have mutual attractions for each other.
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Old 09-20-2020, 07:37 AM   #34
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"Christianity had a long history of discrimination?" -- This is your response? So did Aborigines, Native Americans, First Nation peoples. Every group of people who ever lived have a long history of discrimination against gay and lesbians. You then need to judge the entire world. Why just judge Christians of old? Christians and Judeo-Christian Western societies have taken the lead in protecting gays and lesbians. Why don't you acknowledge their help?

Neither did you answer how many in the gay and lesbian community have voiced their disagreement with the demands of transgenders. For example, trans athletes are beginning to destroy women's sports. All of the Title Nine gains might be wiped out eventually. Many are concluding that male and female sports can no longer be segregated, and unisex sports are the logical conclusion. Even gay and lesbian supporters are starting to realize the incredibly dangerous ramifications that trans people impose upon society.

There is no military in the history of the world which has accepted trans recruits for obvious reasons. You need to rethink this position. The US military is not a social experiment. I disagree that the entire society should be forced to change in order to accommodate those who don't like their own body. This is not discrimination!

"Covert name calling?" O my, are you sensitive. I am only addressing ideas and concepts here. It is merely a normal response to wild ideas to say, "what planet are you from?"

Not the entire world. In ancient times, there was acceptance among the Romans and Greeks for homosexual relations and among some Native American communities, the trans people were treated with respect and revered as shamans and “two-spirited”. Buddhist and Taoist religions don’t care much about someone’s sexual orientation. We need to acknowlege the hurt LGBTQ peeps have recieved from Christianity because it’s the same thing as disregarding how Europeans massacred and took away Native American lands, or brushing African American slavery under the rug. Please define “Christians of old”. Are you inquiring about the Roman Catholics, Pre-Augustine times, New Testament times or old Testament times.

I’m not sure where you are getting your sources from, but I have plenty of trans friends and I dont mind their “ramifications”, whether it’d be in sports or usage of bathrooms. The Chinese military and Vikings had women generals and warriors. What difference does it make if they are all fighting on the same side? Laws change base on societal standards and changes. Thus, the entire history of humankind has been one giant social experiment.

And thank you, I’m just being culturally sensitive.
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Old 09-20-2020, 07:38 AM   #35
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Since I accidentally posted this anonymously I am going to add that this.

I am a woman and next week will be celebrating my one year anniversary with my girlfriend who is a beautiful transgender woman.
May this thread help more LC gays come out of the closet ... and help gay LC kids feel free from condemnation in their homosexuality.

Thank you Jesus for this thread.

Thanks Serenity ... you're an angel of God.
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Old 09-20-2020, 07:46 AM   #36
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Pope Francis tells parents of LGBT children that 'God loves them as they are'

Francis is the best Pope ever.

Thank you Jesus!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cept-them.html
Well of course God loves them just the way they are! He loves all of us - even when were were flat-out enemies. Now He is bringing many sons to glory, and soon all the confusion will be gone!

We had dinner last night with an older couple - saints who are friends of ours - who have had their share of physical maladies. The sister has had cancer like three times over the past 20 years (she's all good now). She was discussing how she did a gene study and discovered that one little letter in a certain gene was wrong, and this makes someone predisposed to certain types of cancer. It's amazing to me that out of all the billions of "lines of code" in our DNA, that just one little tiny thing out of place causes big issues.

So, we fallen beings, all have these little things out of place that causes things to go sideways. This is why well all need to be renewed. He loves us, sent Christ to heal us, and through Him the new creation will be fully manifest with none of these issues. Hallelujah!
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:46 AM   #37
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Well of course God loves them just the way they are! He loves all of us - even when were were flat-out enemies. Now He is bringing many sons to glory, and soon all the confusion will be gone!

We had dinner last night with an older couple - saints who are friends of ours - who have had their share of physical maladies. The sister has had cancer like three times over the past 20 years (she's all good now). She was discussing how she did a gene study and discovered that one little letter in a certain gene was wrong, and this makes someone predisposed to certain types of cancer. It's amazing to me that out of all the billions of "lines of code" in our DNA, that just one little tiny thing out of place causes big issues.

So, we fallen beings, all have these little things out of place that causes things to go sideways. This is why well all need to be renewed. He loves us, sent Christ to heal us, and through Him the new creation will be fully manifest with none of these issues. Hallelujah!
Hi Sons of Glory, you’ve matured a lot since the last time we spoke. I’m glad the couple you spoke of is in good health right now. I realize that over the last three years, I have also been doing some studies, both sociological and biological about what makes sexuality and gender so diverse in human beings. In fact, there are higher percentages of bisexuality in women than men and gay men know their sexuality at pre teen or puberty whereas on average, lesbians and bisexual women have more fluid sexuality throughout their lives and find out later on, usually in late teens or twenties to even thirties. There’s been studies showing that several alterations in genes can determine a person’s disposition to male or female attraction. And of course there is are studies where they put trans people’s brains under MRI scans and the parts that light up are more similar to that of which gender they feel, not of the sex organs they were born with. And there are toddlers, like three years old who feel they ate in the wrong body/assigned the wrong gender, insisting that they want to wear certain gendered clothing and say they are a “boy” or a “girl”, the first chance they have conception of gender. No one gave them the idea, but yet they know. Then there’s other studies that show that the amount of estrogen in a mother’s body during pregnancy can lead to gender identity in babies whether they’ve already developed male or female or intersex genitalia. Then there’s another study that reveals that in people who identify as intersex and the doctor and/or parents decide to cut off the penis or keep the penis, the brain still produces variant amounts of testosterone that can lead, say an intersex person whose family decides for them to remove the penis, to later find out they identify more as a male while growing up. It’s all very fascinating. And what makes heterosexuals attracted to the opposite sex and why are people always looking for a “gay gene” when they can’t even find a “hetero” gene, there’s so many factors and its mindboggling to even comprehend. We are all made in the image of God and so there is redemption for all of us.
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:57 AM   #38
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Since I accidentally posted this anonymously I am going to add that this.

I am a woman and next week will be celebrating my one year anniversary with my girlfriend who is a beautiful transgender woman.
congratulations to your one year anniversary. my wife and I are having our fourth year anniversary next week as well. This just comes to show that same sex relationships can be as stable, healthy, and happy as opposite sex relationships !
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:06 AM   #39
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Thanks for this topic.

I am bisexual, and I really found it hard to accept myself during my teenage years and even early 20s.
I tried to push it down and "pray the gay" away for the longest time.

In my mid 20s I realised I could not deny that I was bisexual any longer. But still being in the LC made that hard. It was like the longer I stayed in the more homophobic preaching I heard from elders in the LC.

Every wedding I attended felt like it was being used as a lesson to push heterosexuality as the only right way.

This wasn't the only reason I left, but even so, when I first left and then met Christians who were also in the LGBT community and supported for it by their church, I felt envious.

I don't feel that way particularly anymore, but I do worry a lot for the queer kids still in the church.
I am bisexual as well and it took a lot of denial but nothing seemed to work no matter how hard I prayed to God, tried to date guys. At one time I felt like I was living a double life in college, joining Christians on Campus and simultaneously, neevously avoiding church people who happen to be on campus to go to evening lgbtq support groups. There were times when I felt like giving up, letting go, having suicidal thoughts, but I finally realized that I only had one life, and that was given to me by God. I had to live it and stop pretending. I worry also for the ones still stuck in LC and struggling with their sexuality or gender identity, hence why I wanted to start this thread to show that there is hope out there for any of them if they are starting to question and need to know that there are others like them, who have gone through similar experiences. Thank you for sharing and I’m glad to know I am also not alone.
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:22 AM   #40
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There’s been studies showing that several alterations in genes can determine a person’s disposition to male or female attraction.

....

And what makes heterosexuals attracted to the opposite sex and why are people always looking for a “gay gene” when they can’t even find a “hetero” gene...
I agree it is fascinating.

Can you explain these two statements and reconcile them a little more? From my reading, it sounds like the first statement is saying there is genetic component to whether a person is attracted to males or females, and from my reading of the second statement it sounds like you are disparaging looking for that very thing - a gene that determines attractions - as something silly. I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying, so I'm just asking for clarification. Thanks.
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:26 AM   #41
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I am bisexual as well and it took a lot of denial but nothing seemed to work no matter how hard I prayed to God, tried to date guys. At one time I felt like I was living a double life in college, joining Christians on Campus and simultaneously, neevously avoiding church people who happen to be on campus to go to evening lgbtq support groups. There were times when I felt like giving up, letting go, having suicidal thoughts, but I finally realized that I only had one life, and that was given to me by God. I had to live it and stop pretending. I worry also for the ones still stuck in LC and struggling with their sexuality or gender identity, hence why I wanted to start this thread to show that there is hope out there for any of them if they are starting to question and need to know that there are others like them, who have gone through similar experiences. Thank you for sharing and I’m glad to know I am also not alone.
Hearing that you were in COC helps clarify for me the "in LC" part of this new thread. I had been thinking that, at least according to my own experience, the LGBT+ topic in the local church is essentially not brought up except in the college student context. As far as I am aware, "the ministry" doesn't spend much if any time on the topic, and the co-workers are more concerned with their own "deputy authority" during the trainings and conferences than to address this topic at all. The only place I have heard much said, and it wasn't much, was in the context of college student gatherings.....mostly things like Q&As or "special topics" or something like that.
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:27 AM   #42
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Hi Sons of Glory, you’ve matured a lot since the last time we spoke. I’m glad the couple you spoke of is in good health right now. I realize that over the last three years, I have also been doing some studies, both sociological and biological about what makes sexuality and gender so diverse in human beings. In fact, there are higher percentages of bisexuality in women than men and gay men know their sexuality at pre teen or puberty whereas on average, lesbians and bisexual women have more fluid sexuality throughout their lives and find out later on, usually in late teens or twenties to even thirties. There’s been studies showing that several alterations in genes can determine a person’s disposition to male or female attraction. And of course there is are studies where they put trans people’s brains under MRI scans and the parts that light up are more similar to that of which gender they feel, not of the sex organs they were born with. And there are toddlers, like three years old who feel they ate in the wrong body/assigned the wrong gender, insisting that they want to wear certain gendered clothing and say they are a “boy” or a “girl”, the first chance they have conception of gender. No one gave them the idea, but yet they know. Then there’s other studies that show that the amount of estrogen in a mother’s body during pregnancy can lead to gender identity in babies whether they’ve already developed male or female or intersex genitalia. Then there’s another study that reveals that in people who identify as intersex and the doctor and/or parents decide to cut off the penis or keep the penis, the brain still produces variant amounts of testosterone that can lead, say an intersex person whose family decides for them to remove the penis, to later find out they identify more as a male while growing up. It’s all very fascinating. And what makes heterosexuals attracted to the opposite sex and why are people always looking for a “gay gene” when they can’t even find a “hetero” gene, there’s so many factors and its mindboggling to even comprehend. We are all made in the image of God and so there is redemption for all of us.
Well thank you. I have just come to the point where I realize I don't know exactly how it all works, and that's fine, because He knows how it all works! So to conclusively say that gayness happens because of personal decision, or genes or the devil or whatever - let's face it, no one but God knows. We don't even normally realize the extent of what the fall did, because we live with the corrupted flesh every day. So it's perhaps a little like a bunch of three-year-olds sitting around and arguing about some aspect of nuclear fission.

I'm reminded of that wonderful song "I Cannot Tell," because it comes down to just that - I cannot tell; but this I know: "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself"

(To the tune of "Danny Boy")
I cannot tell why He, whom angels worship,
Should set His love upon the sons of men,
Or why, as Shepherd, He should seek the wand’rers,
To bring them back, they know not how or when.
But this I know, that He was born of Mary,
When Bethl’hem’s manger was His only home,
And that He lived at Nazareth and labored,
And so the Savior, Savior of the world, is come.

I cannot tell how silently He suffered,
As with His peace He graced this place of tears,
Or how His heart upon the Cross was broken,
The crown of pain to three and thirty years.
But this I know, He heals the broken-hearted,
And stays our sin, and calms our lurking fear,
And lifts the burden from the heavy laden,
For yet the Savior, Savior of the world, is here.

I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
How He will claim His earthly heritage,
How satisfy the needs and aspirations
Of east and west, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
And He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
And some glad day His sun shall shine in splendor
When He the Savior, Savior of the world, is known.

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled,
Or who can say how great the jubilation
When all the hearts of men with love are filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
And myriad, myriad human voices sing,
And earth to heaven, and heaven to earth, will answer:
At last the Savior, Savior of the world, is King.
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:33 AM   #43
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Well of course God loves them just the way they are! He loves all of us - even when were were flat-out enemies. Now He is bringing many sons to glory, and soon all the confusion will be gone!

We had dinner last night with an older couple - saints who are friends of ours - who have had their share of physical maladies. The sister has had cancer like three times over the past 20 years (she's all good now). She was discussing how she did a gene study and discovered that one little letter in a certain gene was wrong, and this makes someone predisposed to certain types of cancer. It's amazing to me that out of all the billions of "lines of code" in our DNA, that just one little tiny thing out of place causes big issues.

So, we fallen beings, all have these little things out of place that causes things to go sideways. This is why well all need to be renewed. He loves us, sent Christ to heal us, and through Him the new creation will be fully manifest with none of these issues. Hallelujah!
Yeah brother Sons to Glory, and gays may be accepted in God's new kingdom ... after all, there won't be marriages.

And don't forget, Gen 6 told of the sons of God -- said to be angels -- coming down to know the young daughters of men (why not daughters of women? -- musta been written by men)? So, like Jesus stated, angels aren't given to marriage, but apparently, that doesn't keep them from being horny. And of course, who could resist gods ... or angels? Those pretty young girls didn't stand a chance against their godly charms.

In the OT gays were to be stoned to death. Why aren't there stories of lesbians in the OT? It's because there weren't none (sic). They were stoned.

Ever wonder why there's so much homophobia in the LC? That's easy. They get it from the Bible. The Bible is a homophobic book ... which means, according to that record, God is a homophobe ... God forbid

Those Leviticus commandments, that Christians love to use against gays, however, doesn't stop the Christian homophobe's from enjoying shrimp and lobster for dinner ... commandments included in the same book that calls men laying with men an abomination. Eating shrimp is an abomination to God. God's a funny arbitrary guy with his commandments and abominations.

So is the local church. But not funny to the gays in the LC ... it's actually painful to them ... not the love Jesus taught and lived. The local church isn't being Christ-like toward them. No surprise there. The LC isn't Christ-like. They're Lee-like.
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:41 AM   #44
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No Ohio, she mentioned that she is with a person who identifies as a woman. They are both female gender. So they are a lesbian couple who have mutual attractions for each other.
But one of them has a boy's body, and she is a girl ... see how that works?

Pay attention to what is happening today. It is the traditional gay and lesbian communities who are going to react the strongest against the trans movement, especially related to sports. Think about what will happen when Megan Rapinoe and other lesbian sports stars on the USA women's soccer team start losing to some insignificant country team with a bunch of trans athletes.

Lawsuits galore are in store. Women track stars in Connecticut have already filed lawsuits regarding trans athletes who have stolen their university scholarships and sports futures. The whole movement can be fraught with fraud. (My one son often says that he could have been a basketball legend if only he would have identified as a woman. ) If we as a society don't decide to limit sports to one's birth gender, then we will destroy all sports. Trans women will totally dominate women's sports, and if we go to unisex sports, women will totally lose out, except for a few sports like gymnastics, diving, skating, etc.

The entire trans movement may one day destroy the whole of society in order to give special privileges to a small handful of people. It is far and away the most self-centered and narcissistic movement in all of history.
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:52 AM   #45
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Not the entire world. In ancient times, there was acceptance among the Romans and Greeks for homosexual relations and among some Native American communities, the trans people were treated with respect and revered as shamans and “two-spirited”. Buddhist and Taoist religions don’t care much about someone’s sexual orientation. We need to acknowlege the hurt LGBTQ peeps have recieved from Christianity because it’s the same thing as disregarding how Europeans massacred and took away Native American lands, or brushing African American slavery under the rug. Please define “Christians of old”. Are you inquiring about the Roman Catholics, Pre-Augustine times, New Testament times or old Testament times.

I’m not sure where you are getting your sources from, but I have plenty of trans friends and I dont mind their “ramifications”, whether it’d be in sports or usage of bathrooms. The Chinese military and Vikings had women generals and warriors. What difference does it make if they are all fighting on the same side? Laws change base on societal standards and changes. Thus, the entire history of humankind has been one giant social experiment.

And thank you, I’m just being culturally sensitive.
No, you are definitely not culturally sensitive.

If there ever was a movement to destroy the US, this would be it. And I definitely disagree with your distorted versions of Christian and American history. Since China has become the "most successful economic and socio-political" country today, after dealing so well with the Covid pandemic, please take your innovative ideas to their country in order to test them out before bringing them here.

What? China won't take them? Maybe Russia? No? How about Cuba? Venezuela? There must be lots of other "progressive socialist" countries out there that I'm sure you would like a whole lot better than this awful USA with its terrible Christians.
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:54 AM   #46
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May this thread help more LC gays come out of the closet ... and help gay LC kids feel free from condemnation in their homosexuality.
Have you considered that the horrible "condemnation" these people are forced to endure does not come from outside, but from inside, from within their own conscience given to them by God?
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:57 AM   #47
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I am bisexual as well ...
What does your wonderful wife of 4 years say when you start getting interested in some guy?
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Old 09-20-2020, 12:04 PM   #48
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Wow that is around 16 million Americans! And if you look at UCLA’s statistics, among millenials, it’s nearly 25 percent. Is it because society is more accepting of them to report higher numbers, cultural influences on shame, or nature/nurture?
Do you mean that of those who identify as LGBT, 25% of them are millennials? Or do you mean that of the U.S. millennial age bracket, 25% of U.S. millennials identify as LGBT?

College students do and say a lot of things they regret later on. Drinking, passing out drunk, drugs, sex they regret in the morning, hazing, driving recklessly over 100 mph, making out with people they wouldn't otherwise, getting naked in public pools, trying out lesbian/gay relationships, throwing caution to the wind. And then they wake up after college and say "Oops. I didn't have my head on straight." I can think of examples of almost all those I just gave -- and all within corporate living in a local church context! Are they doing those things anymore now that they are adults? Nope, not one of them. College students aren't bastions of reason and level-headed thinking.

If the 25% statistic remains and progresses through the age brackets as those millennials get older, then I would say that statistic gives us more to sink our teeth into.

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I wonder if same sex attractions are immoral, why are there so many of us?
I also want to revisit briefly the logic behind this statement of yours. My comments here are not regarding the morality or immorality of same sex attractions, but just the logic of your statement.

Prevalence of something does not determine its morality. There are over 2 million people in prison right now. That's a lot! But it doesn't make what they've done (steal, prostitute young girls, murder, rape, commit fraud, grand theft auto, burglary, etc) moral.

Note, I'm not comparing same sex attractions to criminal acts. I'm just trying to show you that the logic of your conclusion does not hold up. We can use a less horrible sounding example if it helps. Almost 40% of Americans are obese. That's over 70 million people. It's a staggering number. Does that make obesity normal, healthy, good, something to attain to? Of course not. Prevalence of something doesn't determine it's rightness or wrongness.

I just want to make sure we are handling the discussion with a common and basic level of logic.

Again - I'm not comparing LGBT to crimes or to obesity. I'm not commenting on the morality of it. I'm only concerned with the leap of logic, and used those things as examples to show the logic in that one statement doesn't hold. Thanks.
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Old 09-20-2020, 07:44 PM   #49
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If the 25% statistic remains and progresses through the age brackets as those millennials get older, then I would say that statistic gives us more to sink our teeth into.

I also want to revisit briefly the logic behind this statement of yours. My comments here are not regarding the morality or immorality of same sex attractions.
Oh I think it will. 90 percent of all lgbtq I’ve encountered havent changed their orientation in a decade and I havent changed my whole life.

And I know, just comparing it to heterosexuality, there’s many but is it moral?
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Old 09-20-2020, 07:47 PM   #50
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What does your wonderful wife of 4 years say when you start getting interested in some guy?
Just because someone is bisexual does not mean they can easily flip flop. I am commited to my wife and am apalled at how you continue to disparage my relationship and the other lgbtq’s relations with their loved ones. If you have nothing good to say, then dont say it at all.
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Old 09-20-2020, 07:54 PM   #51
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But one of them has a boy's body, and she is a girl ... see how that works?

Pay attention to what is happening today. It is far and away the most self-centered and narcissistic movement in all of history.
Just because you think something, doesnt mean it is true. Just because you think her partner is a male does not make that true. And no I think you should pay attention to what is happening today. I can see where you’re coming from but sorry it doesnt work that way. “self centered”? please take a look at yourself or Awareness will censure you.
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:10 PM   #52
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No, you are definitely not culturally sensitive.

If there ever was a movement to destroy the US, this would be it. And I definitely disagree with your distorted versions of Christian and American history. Since China has become the "most successful economic and socio-political" country today, after dealing so well with the Covid pandemic, please take your innovative ideas to their country in order to test them out before bringing them here.

What? China won't take them? Maybe Russia? No? How about Cuba? Venezuela? There must be lots of other "progressive socialist" countries out there that I'm sure you would like a whole lot better than this awful USA with its terrible Christians.
Homsexuals have existed throughout history and we have not distroyed history, whatever that means. Think about the Holocaust and how homosexuals were rounded up too and thrown in the incinerators. Thinking that you are afraid with gays and lesbians destroying America speaks more about you and your privilege. I’m not going to engage with you anymore. Any retorts or answers will be met with my silence. Be civilized like Trapped and Sons of Glory.
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:16 PM   #53
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And I know, just comparing it to heterosexuality, there’s many but is it moral?
I'm having trouble understanding what you are trying to say here. Can you rephrase the question?
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:30 PM   #54
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Just because someone is bisexual does not mean they can easily flip flop. I am commited to my wife and am apalled at how you continue to disparage my relationship and the other lgbtq’s relations with their loved ones. If you have nothing good to say, then dont say it at all.
I have not disparaged your relationship or any other.

It is you who said somthing quite concerning about being bi.

Do you esteem loyalty or faithfulness to your partner as important?
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:31 PM   #55
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Just because you think something, doesnt mean it is true. Just because you think her partner is a male does not make that true. And no I think you should pay attention to what is happening today. I can see where you’re coming from but sorry it doesnt work that way. “self centered”? please take a look at yourself or Awareness will censure you.
Why don't you comment on lesbian concerns for women's sports?
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:43 PM   #56
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[QUOTE=Trapped;95042]I agree it is fascinating.

Can you explain these two statements and reconcile them a little more? From my reading, it sounds like the first statement is saying there is genetic component to whether a person is attracted to males or females, and from my reading of the second statement it sounds like you are disparaging looking for that very thing - a gene that determines attractions - as something silly. I don't want to misunderstand what you are saying, so I'm just asking for clarification. Thanks

So, for a very long time, researchers have been trying to find one specific gene, not genes (plural) that determines a person’s sexual orientation. Many of the LGBTQ community at that time found it ludicrous and offensive that they should be looking for a gay gene, which implies there’s something wrong or it’s a genetic mutation that results in their orientation. So if you flip it around, if people think that heterosexuality is the minority, by same logic, then they should also be lookin for the specific gene that make a person straight right?

As it turns out, recently in some studies, sexuality is a result of a combination of various parts of genes (plural), and hormones in the mother’s womb before birth. So that clears up a lot I guess for the confusion in overall society, not just lgbtq community. I hope I answered your question
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:44 PM   #57
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Homsexuals have existed throughout history and we have not distroyed history, whatever that means. Think about the Holocaust and how homosexuals were rounded up too and thrown in the incinerators. Thinking that you are afraid with gays and lesbians destroying America speaks more about you and your privilege. I’m not going to engage with you anymore. Any retorts or answers will be met with my silence. Be civilized like Trapped and Sons of Glory.
I have been speaking about trans people. Why are you changing the subject to gays and lesbians. I'm sure you know the difference.

My discussions have been entirely civil. I am only asking you to respond to issues which other gays and lesbians also have. I mentioned the open letter by J K Rowling et. al. but you ignored that.

You cannot come here and promote your agenda unless you are willing to discuss. This is a Discussion Forum. I have some very serious concerns about the trans movement. Society has never confronted this before.

I am shocked that you would bring up this topic and then attempt to censure or censor me.
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Old 09-20-2020, 08:54 PM   #58
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I'm having trouble understanding what you are trying to say here. Can you rephrase the question?
Like I have to come to question standards of morality. If homosexuals are to be jusged for their behaviors, then heterosexuals with divorces, cheating, incest, pedophilia, etc should also be questioned regarding whether these behaviors are appropriate and healthy.
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:04 PM   #59
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So, for a very long time, researchers have been trying to find one specific gene, not genes (plural) that determines a person’s sexual orientation. Many of the LGBTQ community at that time found it ludicrous and offensive that they should be looking for a gay gene, which implies there’s something wrong or it’s a genetic mutation that results in their orientation. So if you flip it around, if people think that heterosexuality is the minority, by same logic, then they should also be lookin for the specific gene that make a person straight right?

As it turns out, recently in some studies, sexuality is a result of a combination of various parts of genes (plural), and hormones in the mother’s womb before birth. So that clears up a lot I guess for the confusion in overall society, not just lgbtq community. I hope I answered your question
Huh, that's interesting. Perspectives are so complicated! When I hear of people looking for a specific gene in this area, the way my brain works is not to conisder it a "gay gene", but to consider it a "sexual orientation gene". If it's "flipped" one way, you are attracted to males, if it's flipped another way, then to females. There is no morality inherent in genes; it's just straight coding.

Kind of like sickle cell anemia. It's a single-gene issue. If the gene is one way, blood cells are round. If the gene is another way, blood cells are sickle-shaped and more sticky. The end result can be mortally problematic, but as far as the genes are concerned, there's nothing to be offended by; it's just how information is coded.

If we flip it around so heterosexuality is the minority, I would still consider it looking for a "gene that determines sexual orientation" rather than a "straight gene".

I'm a little confused again. Why is looking for one gene that determines a person's sexual orientation offensive, while finding out that sexuality is a combination of genes (plural) and hormones not offensive? Neither of those scenarios have anything to do with making a judgment on the person who received those genes or hormones. Why is one scenario (one gene) offensive and the other scenario (plural genes and hormones) not offensive?
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:08 PM   #60
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I have been speaking about trans people. Why are you changing the subject to gays and lesbians. I'm sure you know the difference.

My discussions have been entirely civil. I am only asking you to respond to issues which other gays and lesbians also have. I mentioned the open letter by J K Rowling et. al. but you ignored that.

You cannot come here and promote your agenda unless you are willing to discuss. This is a Discussion Forum. I have some very serious concerns about the trans movement. Society has never confronted this before.

I am shocked that you would bring up this topic and then attempt to censure or censor me.
Because JK rowling have nothing to do with lgbtq. And I already stated my opinions regarding trans people in previous posts. I have the right to answer what I feel appropriate or needs answering to, because I have limited knowledge just like you. Maybe someone else can answer in regards to the trans movement, but based on personal experiences, and I will reiterate, with the “trans movement”, not all trans people are involved in this so called movement, they are not in sports. Just like not all heterosexuals have the same views, politically or are in same “movements”. Why do you think I am promoting an “agenda”? I dont even have a planner. It’s time for society to confront it. Like slavery, back then, it would have been new and nothing they have ever seen.
You were deligitimizing my relationship by insensitive questions of whether I would be loyal to my wife? or if the other member’s partner is indeed a male or female. I dont ask you about your marriage so stay out of mine and her relationship. Thanks
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:16 PM   #61
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I'm a little confused again. Why is looking for one gene that determines a person's sexual orientation offensive, while finding out that sexuality is a combination of genes (plural) and hormones not offensive? Neither of those scenarios have anything to do with making a judgment on the person who received those genes or hormones. Why is one scenario (one gene) offensive and the other scenario (plural genes and hormones) not offensive?
To me personally, I dont find it offensive but I can see where other lgbtq come from. Maybe this article will help a bit:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...mp/ncna1050831
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Old 09-20-2020, 09:27 PM   #62
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Have you considered that the horrible "condemnation" these people are forced to endure does not come from outside, but from inside, from within their own conscience given to them by God?
Obviously you haven't been on the receiving end. And apparently are unable to empathize --> that I take to be Christ-like.
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:36 PM   #63
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But one of them has a boy's body, and she is a girl ... see how that works?
Except that she doesn't have a boy's body.
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:42 PM   #64
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congratulations to your one year anniversary. my wife and I are having our fourth year anniversary next week as well. This just comes to show that same sex relationships can be as stable, healthy, and happy as opposite sex relationships !
Thank you, and congratulations to you too!

My current relationship is definitely healthier and happier than some of my past relationships with men.

Not saying that it is healthier just because she is a woman too, but maybe it is a little bit because she is a woman.
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:46 PM   #65
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Hearing that you were in COC helps clarify for me the "in LC" part of this new thread. I had been thinking that, at least according to my own experience, the LGBT+ topic in the local church is essentially not brought up except in the college student context. As far as I am aware, "the ministry" doesn't spend much if any time on the topic, and the co-workers are more concerned with their own "deputy authority" during the trainings and conferences than to address this topic at all. The only place I have heard much said, and it wasn't much, was in the context of college student gatherings.....mostly things like Q&As or "special topics" or something like that.
I left the LC about five years ago, but during the fivish years before that I heard brothers in LC speak more and more frequently to condemn homosexuality. This is in New Zealand though, maybe in the Southern states of the US they don't feel like they need to address it, outside of the campus work?
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:53 PM   #66
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I have been speaking about trans people. Why are you changing the subject to gays and lesbians. I'm sure you know the difference.

My discussions have been entirely civil. I am only asking you to respond to issues which other gays and lesbians also have. I mentioned the open letter by J K Rowling et. al. but you ignored that.

You cannot come here and promote your agenda unless you are willing to discuss. This is a Discussion Forum. I have some very serious concerns about the trans movement. Society has never confronted this before.

I am shocked that you would bring up this topic and then attempt to censure or censor me.
You seem very interested in the internal politics of the LGBT+ community.

If you must know, some radical feminists who view men as the "enemy" have decided that transwomen are actually just men in dresses trying to get access to women's spaces for nefarious purposes, even though the evidence does not show this to be the case at all. JK Rowling has for many years been suspected of sharing these viewpoints and recently confirmed that she does.

Did not know you were so eager to support the views of a "Wiccan".
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:57 PM   #67
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I have not disparaged your relationship or any other.

It is you who said somthing quite concerning about being bi.

Do you esteem loyalty or faithfulness to your partner as important?
What did she say about being bisexual that was concerning?

Being bisexual does not change how faithful or loyal one is to their partner, just like being heterosexual does not guarantee a person won't cheat on their partner.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:33 AM   #68
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You were deligitimizing my relationship by insensitive questions of whether I would be loyal to my wife? or if the other member’s partner is indeed a male or female. I dont ask you about your marriage so stay out of mine and her relationship. Thanks
Oh my, are you sensitive! I'm only trying to discuss issues here bringing up diversities you may not be aware of.

I'm not delegitimizing your relationship. It was you who brought up the subject. But, think about if the roles were reversed here. I have been married to my wife for decades. What if my wife overheard a comment I made that "I am bi, I like guys too." Would not that seriously undermine our marriage? Delegitimize our relationship? Perhaps my "serenity" might take a turn for the worse.

Seriously though, how can you call your spouse your "wife," when "she" was born a boy? I'm not the only one who has trouble understanding this. I'm just trying to work thru this.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:44 AM   #69
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Obviously you haven't been on the receiving end. And apparently are unable to empathize --> that I take to be Christ-like.
You have no idea how much abuse I have been forced to endure my entire life. But I don't live nor love "victim" status.

I watch the news. Where are all these abuses that the LGBT community is enduring? They have the highest per capita income of all the "minority" groups. They have special hate crimes and employment legislation to protect and enrich them. Matter of fact, I see lots of straight conservatives getting LGBT stuff shoved in their faces. Who are the real abusers here?

And when did Jesus Christ show empathy to gay, lesbian, and trans marriage? Is there some verse that show us that Jesus Christ has reversed the teachings of the rest of the Bible? Yes, God loves all, but He sure don't love all that is done, and one day He will judge us all.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:07 AM   #70
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You seem very interested in the internal politics of the LGBT+ community.

If you must know, some radical feminists who view men as the "enemy" have decided that transwomen are actually just men in dresses trying to get access to women's spaces for nefarious purposes, even though the evidence does not show this to be the case at all. JK Rowling has for many years been suspected of sharing these viewpoints and recently confirmed that she does.

Did not know you were so eager to support the views of a "Wiccan".
I don't support Wiccan religion, but even this radical feminist has serious concerns about the trans movement. She is not alone either. I only supported her ideas in this open letter. Is there some law that says I cannot agree with her when her concerns match my own?

Society has become upside down. Of course there will be trans women who want to "get access to women's spaces for nefarious purposes." Why not? There are numerous reasons for this. I already mentioned sports. Athletes born male have many advantages over athletes born female in many high dollar sports. One of my sons claims he could have been a sports legend had he been able to play basketball as a trans woman.

Think about other "nefarious purposes" we have seen regarding race. We had a presidential candidate who rose to academic and political prominence claiming to be Native American. We have had numerous people who have transitioned into African Americans for personal gain. Why would they do such a thing if hatred and racism was so prevalent in America. Obviously it is not. Being part of some identity intersectionality, whether race, gay, trans, or better yet all three, has definite perks, or they would not be doing so.

It is not LGBT "internal politics" that concerns me. Obviously the recent SCOTUS ruling tells us that these are not "internal politics," but have an impact on all of us.
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Old 09-21-2020, 11:21 AM   #71
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Oh my, are you sensitive! I'm only trying to discuss issues here bringing up diversities you may not be aware of.

I'm not delegitimizing your relationship. It was you who brought up the subject. But, think about if the roles were reversed here. I have been married to my wife for decades. What if my wife overheard a comment I made that "I am bi, I like guys too." Would not that seriously undermine our marriage? Delegitimize our relationship? Perhaps my "serenity" might take a turn for the worse.

Seriously though, how can you call your spouse your "wife," when "she" was born a boy? I'm not the only one who has trouble understanding this. I'm just trying to work thru this.
1. You have a misconception that bisexuals can only be attracted to either men or women at a time. Bisexuals are actually attracted to men and women simultaneously. I believe that your thought process is that if the "options" available to an individual are more or less doubled, than the likelihood of that person losing interest in their partner will increase; this notion is deeply flawed and may or may not reflect on your own character/commitment to your own partner. I would look into that if I were you. If your wife would feel insecure about you being attracted to both men and women, that's more reflective of trust issues in your relationship rather than issues from a person's sexuality.

If a person is in a deeply committed relationship (ie marriage), then it doesn't matter how many alternatives there are available to a person, regardless of their sexuality. If that person is truly a person of integrity, then if they are in a deeply committed, monogamous relationship, they will stay true to their partner.

================================

2. How are you having trouble understanding that her wife is a wife? Genitalia at birth only determines that person's assigned sex, not their gender identity. To clarify, some quick terminology:
- male/female - sex terms related to genitalia assigned at birth (male = penis, etc)
- man/woman - gender terms based on subjective identity (man = identifies as a man, etc)

Thus, if their wife was originally born with a male sex assignment, but they identify as a woman, they are inherently a woman regardless of their biology. This identity is not a choice, it is something that manifests as the person's sense of self-awareness and identity forms. If you believe it is a choice, please ask yourself when you chose to stay the gender that correlated with your assigned sex at birth. If you can't figure out the rough date you made that choice, then sit down because you just discovered that it's not a choice.

Referring to a trans woman as the gender identity that correlates with their originally assigned sex is extremely disrespectful, as you are denying that person's autonomy and sense of self in leu of your own, narrow-minded worldview. To illustrate how disrespectful that behavior is, let's imagine you introduce yourself by name to someone, but that person refuses to you accept the name you introduce yourself with because in their mind, you look like a Bob instead of [insert your name here]. So regardless of how much you try to have that person address you by your name, which is something you can legally change to match your self-identity, they call you the name they think suits you best when they don't know anything about you. Don't you think that's disrespectful behavior? That's exactly what you're doing to this person's wife. Stop it.
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:12 PM   #72
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It is not LGBT "internal politics" that concerns me. Obviously the recent SCOTUS ruling tells us that these are not "internal politics," but have an impact on all of us.
Hey bro Ohio, I take it you're talking about legalizing same sex marriage.

I haven't been impacted by it in the least. If I have, it's all been good and happy. Those in a same sex marriage that I've known, were very happy. Prolly even, and I can't say with any degree certainty, happier than your marriage. I know this by my own experience and comparison. SerenityLives and her lucky partner couldn't be any happier.

But you don't seem to be close enough to such encounters to understand. So I'm very curious, please explain, you seem to think same sex marriage is destroying America, so how has same sex marriage actually impacted you?
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:15 PM   #73
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Don't you think that's disrespectful behavior?
No, none of my posts are disrespectful. But I do think it is a little disrespectful to post anonymously without even a moniker. You cannot play semantic word games and then call me "disrespectful."

Why is it you have not addressed my points? I have made numerous posts on this forum on behalf of women. I stand against all abuse, and stand up for the rights of those who have been hurt. On this particular thread I have pointed out how the trans movement hurts women. It damages women's rights. It is just ripe for corruption and fraud. Since I am advocating for women, why do you not support me?
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:20 PM   #74
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Hey bro Ohio, I take it you're talking about legalizing same sex marriage.

I haven't been impacted by it in the least. If I have, it's all been good and happy. Those in a same sex marriage that I've known, were very happy. Prolly even, and I can't say with any degree certainty, happier than your marriage. I know this by my own experience and comparison. SerenityLives and her lucky partner couldn't be any happier.

But you don't seem to be close enough to such encounters to understand. So I'm very curious, please explain, you seem to think same sex marriage is destroying America, so how has same sex marriage actually impacted you?
Where in this thread have I mentioned same-sex marriage? Or people being happy? In fact, I was alarmed when she said that she was bi, and attracted to men. I brought up my concern because it seemed that may hurt her present happiness.

When God is happy with us, then are not we the most happy too?
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Old 09-21-2020, 12:41 PM   #75
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No, none of my posts are disrespectful. But I do think it is a little disrespectful to post anonymously without even a moniker. You cannot play semantic word games and then call me "disrespectful."

Why is it you have not addressed my points? I have made numerous posts on this forum on behalf of women. I stand against all abuse, and stand up for the rights of those who have been hurt. On this particular thread I have pointed out how the trans movement hurts women. It damages women's rights. It is just ripe for corruption and fraud. Since I am advocating for women, why do you not support me?
You may not view your posts as disrespectful but disrespect is not always intended; it can come from implicit misunderstandings and/or ignorance towards a group of people that are different from yourself. It's like saying all Muslims are terrorists; a person may genuinely believe that all Muslims are terrorists so from their perspective they are stating a fact rather than bigotry, so as a product of that person's ignorance, a bigoted statement doesn't appear disrespectful to that person.

When it comes to your "activism" of women's rights and safety, you're hiding behind the veil of advocacy to label an entire demographic you clearly don't understand as a 'danger to society'. The intention behind identifying as trans is not anything else but identifying as that person actually is. This hypothetical danger you perceive from the trans community to women is irrational and incorrect.

Will there be individuals who might take advantage of a situation for their deviant behavior? Sure, that goes for all of humanity in every circumstance and scenario. Does that justify denying an entire demographic of real people the right to live normally in society? No. That would be like outlawing cars because some outlier deviants would intentionally use cars to kill people.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:12 PM   #76
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Oh my, are you sensitive! I'm only trying to discuss issues here bringing up diversities you may not be aware of.

I'm not delegitimizing your relationship. It was you who brought up the subject. But, think about if the roles were reversed here. I have been married to my wife for decades. What if my wife overheard a comment I made that "I am bi, I like guys too." Would not that seriously undermine our marriage? Delegitimize our relationship? Perhaps my "serenity" might take a turn for the worse.

Seriously though, how can you call your spouse your "wife," when "she" was born a boy? I'm not the only one who has trouble understanding this. I'm just trying to work thru this.
SerenityLives never said her wife is a transwoman, not that it would matter if she was.

I'm the one whose girlfriend is a transwoman. We've been dating for one year minus 2 days. One of the anonymous posters.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:21 PM   #77
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Is it just me, or is all this confusing?
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:34 PM   #78
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I'm curious. How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? The New Testament doesn't say anything explicitly about his sexuality one way or the other. It doesn't even say if he was married or not. So people seem to assume he was a celibate heterosexual. Based on what? And why did the authors leave the door open for speculation? Ideas?
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:45 PM   #79
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I'm curious. How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? The New Testament doesn't say anything explicitly about his sexuality one way or the other. It doesn't even say if he was married or not. So people seem to assume he was a celibate heterosexual. Based on what? And why did the authors leave the door open for speculation? Ideas?
Do you think God's Firstborn of all creation could be homosexual? Where would we find any inclination in scripture to suggest that . . . starting with the 1st Adam?
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:58 PM   #80
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Do you think God's Firstborn of all creation could be homosexual? Where would we find any inclination in scripture to suggest that . . . starting with the 1st Adam?
Where would we find any inclination in scripture to suggest that He was straight? If it's actually important to be straight instead of homosexual, bisexual, etc, don't you think the Bible would have explicitly emphasized that in the humanity of Jesus, which is a pattern for Christians everywhere to follow?
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:14 PM   #81
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You may not view your posts as disrespectful but disrespect is not always intended; it can come from implicit misunderstandings and/or ignorance towards a group of people that are different from yourself. It's like saying all Muslims are terrorists;
I definitely agree with you here.

People like you are needed in this cancel culture age, with many claiming all white people have "white privilege" and by nature are racists.

But in no way did I mis-characterize a group or characterize anyone wrongly.
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:16 PM   #82
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Is it just me, or is all this confusing?
That's why I said it's a little disrespectful not to identify oneself somehow.
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:17 PM   #83
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I'm curious. How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? The New Testament doesn't say anything explicitly about his sexuality one way or the other. It doesn't even say if he was married or not. So people seem to assume he was a celibate heterosexual. Based on what? And why did the authors leave the door open for speculation? Ideas?
Trollin' on by?
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:26 PM   #84
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Where would we find any inclination in scripture to suggest that He was straight? If it's actually important to be straight instead of homosexual, bisexual, etc, don't you think the Bible would have explicitly emphasized that in the humanity of Jesus, which is a pattern for Christians everywhere to follow?
There was a first Adam (male), who had Eve (female) given to him by God. First man Adam came up short and then we have the last Adam finishing the job in perfection. So why would we think God would have the last Adam as a homosexual when the first one wasn't? There would be no pattern in scripture for that, right?
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:03 PM   #85
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I'm curious. How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? The New Testament doesn't say anything explicitly about his sexuality one way or the other. It doesn't even say if he was married or not. So people seem to assume he was a celibate heterosexual. Based on what? And why did the authors leave the door open for speculation? Ideas?
How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? How do we know he wasn't an Antifa protester who was out looting, catching chariots on fire and seeking to defund the Roman army? The New Testament doesn't say one way or another? What the NT does say is that Jesus was a Jew who observed the law., in fact he was a Rabbi and spoke in the temple and many synagogues throughout Isreal.

Homosexual sex was punishable by death. So the NT writers would leave out something as significant as Jesus being married? Doubtful.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:25 PM   #86
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I definitely agree with you here.

People like you are needed in this cancel culture age, with many claiming all white people have "white privilege" and by nature are racists.

But in no way did I mis-characterize a group or characterize anyone wrongly.
You actually did mischaracterize me, as you assumed I belong to the neo-liberal cancel culture that automatically assumes all white people are racist without knowing anything about me.

You also mischaracterized the trans community when you said that they pose a danger to women.
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:14 PM   #87
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You actually did mischaracterize me, as you assumed I belong to the neo-liberal cancel culture that automatically assumes all white people are racist without knowing anything about me.
No, I did not mischaracterize you. I said, "People like you are needed in this cancel culture age, with many claiming all white people have "white privilege" and by nature are racists."

If you would read my words carefully, you would discover I assumed nothing about you nor did I mischaracterize you. I only expressed how much you were needed these days.

But you claimed I did. So, I will accept your apologies gracefully.
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:32 PM   #88
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You also mischaracterized the trans community when you said that they pose a danger to women.
Not so fast there!

I said repeatedly that the trans movement poses dangers to women's rights.
  • I cited an open letter addressing radical cancel culture to support my position
  • I cited recent lawsuits by female athletes whose scholarships and futures were damaged by trans athletes
  • I explained how trans athletes would nearly destroy most of women's sports
  • I agreed with Serenity that trans-gender incentives were ripe for fraud
  • I supported that position by noting that trans-racials have received enormous benefits from their deceptions, one of which ran for President, and there have been numerous others who have benefitted
How unfortunate it is that your blatant biases mischaracterize me, all the while claiming that you are the "victim" here.

But to your point, actually I agree. Though I did not yet mention this, there are huge segments of society outraged by the dangers presented by trans to women while sharing bathrooms, locker rooms, gym classes, etc.

Trans rights violate women's rights and puts them in danger!
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:14 PM   #89
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Except that she doesn't have a boy's body.
I wasn't going to ask about this since I'm not sure where some of the "that's too personal" lines are in this topic that's already of a very personal nature, but this was naturally one of the thoughts that came up in me when considering your relationship. Are you saying that your transgender wife has had surgery and physically appears more like that of a woman now (as far as anatomy that's usually covered up, rather than just, say, facial appearance)?

Sorry if this is crossing a line to ask. I'm genuinely trying to get a clear picture so my attempt to "walk a mile in your shoes" is more accurate.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:36 PM   #90
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I wasn't going to ask about this since I'm not sure where some of the "that's too personal" lines are in this topic that's already of a very personal nature, but this was naturally one of the thoughts that came up in me when considering your relationship. Are you saying that your transgender wife has had surgery and physically appears more like that of a woman now (as far as anatomy that's usually covered up, rather than just, say, facial appearance)?

Sorry if this is crossing a line to ask. I'm genuinely trying to get a clear picture so my attempt to "walk a mile in your shoes" is more accurate.
No, I meant that her body is not a boy's body because it belongs to her and she is not a boy in any sense of the word.

And yes, asking someone what kind of genitals they have is usually considered crossing the line. I am not sure why you need to know this to "walk a mile in my shoes" unless you are interested in my sex life.

Now, there is a lot of variation in how open transgender individuals are about their transition. Some people don't tell others they are transgender unless they need to know while others post all about the surgeries they have had on the internet.

The things that my girlfriend is comfortable telling people is that she is transgender and that she takes estrogen.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:56 PM   #91
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I'm curious. How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? The New Testament doesn't say anything explicitly about his sexuality one way or the other. It doesn't even say if he was married or not. So people seem to assume he was a celibate heterosexual. Based on what? And why did the authors leave the door open for speculation? Ideas?
For all we know Jesus was built like a Ken doll down there ... or even like a Barbie doll. I doubt it, but we don't know. Nothing in the New Testament mentions such things.

We don't even know if Jesus had bowel movements. And if he did -- that's likely since he was 100% human -- where he relieved himself. Did they back then just go in the open ground, like in India today.

We don't even know what made Jesus laugh. It's recorded that he wept, and that he was perfect.

The point being : We know little about the historical Jesus. We only have accounts of Jesus written decades after Jesus left the earth, by anonymous authors.

And we can't look to Paul. He didn't know the historical Jesus. And we don't know if he was a celibate homosexual either ... or what the thorn in his flesh was. And Paul was 100% human. No divinity there. No perfection either.

But thanks bro zeek for bringing up the question. What I wonder is, if Jesus was gay -- doubtful -- would we still love him.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:04 PM   #92
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Not so fast there!

I said repeatedly that the trans movement poses dangers to women's rights.
[*]I agreed with Serenity that trans-gender incentives were ripe for fraud[*]I supported that position by noting that trans-racials have received enormous benefits from their deceptions, one of which ran for President, and there have been numerous others who have benefitted[/LIST]How unfortunate it is that your blatant biases mischaracterize me, all the while claiming that you are the "victim" here.

Trans rights violate women's rights and puts them in danger!
I’m sorry when did I say this?? that there was fraud in transgender “incentives”?
if it were a deception, then how come you’re aware? hahaha. But some transwomen are women! so they have women rights too!
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:11 PM   #93
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I'm curious. How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? The New Testament doesn't say anything explicitly about his sexuality one way or the other. It doesn't even say if he was married or not. So people seem to assume he was a celibate heterosexual. Based on what? And why did the authors leave the door open for speculation? Ideas?
This raises a very interesting question because back in the day, the average guy living in that time era would have been married before age 33, which was how old Jesus was before he got crucified.

I was also thinking along the lines that if God is a “He”, and he was lonely and created Adam, then doesnt that sound gay? you know, before Eve came along
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Old 09-22-2020, 05:15 AM   #94
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No, I meant that her body is not a boy's body because it belongs to her and she is not a boy in any sense of the word.

And yes, asking someone what kind of genitals they have is usually considered crossing the line. I am not sure why you need to know this to "walk a mile in my shoes" unless you are interested in my sex life.

Now, there is a lot of variation in how open transgender individuals are about their transition. Some people don't tell others they are transgender unless they need to know while others post all about the surgeries they have had on the internet.

The things that my girlfriend is comfortable telling people is that she is transgender and that she takes estrogen.
If your girlfriend is a female NOT in a male's body.....then why call her transgender? It seems we are getting away from commonly understood definitions of terms now.
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Old 09-22-2020, 05:49 AM   #95
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If your girlfriend is a female NOT in a male's body.....then why call her transgender? It seems we are getting away from commonly understood definitions of terms now.
Like I said ... semantic word games ... to kill all discussion.


The creepy comments about the humanity of our Savior Jesus Christ are perhaps the most pathetic and sickening this forum has ever had.
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Old 09-22-2020, 05:53 AM   #96
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I was also thinking along the lines that if God is a “He”, and he was lonely and created Adam, then doesnt that sound gay? you know, before Eve came along
The Bible never says God was lonely. That would imply the infinite God was needy or lacking, and He sure isn't.

Genesis 1:26 says "Let US make man in Our image...." not "let ME make man in MY image". God wasn't alone at the beginning of creation when He made Adam, and He didn't create man because He was lonely.

If He was gay, then He would have wanted Adam for Himself, and would never have created Eve for Adam.

If God was gay, then why would He make a straight Adam? And Adam was clearly straight because God made Eve. That's a heterosexual relationship. It would be pretty awful of God to have made a straight Adam if He wanted a gay relationship with straight Adam.

So, no, for multiple pretty logical reasons, God's not gay.

God is Spirit. He's not a physical person like us. He is not bounded by space, by time, by physical matter. He is infinite, holds the universe in His hands, knows every star, every hair on your head, He is powerful, moral, personal, more mighty and majestic than we can ever comprehend.
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Old 09-22-2020, 06:19 AM   #97
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That's why I said it's a little disrespectful not to identify oneself somehow.
You are just so curious about everyone else arent you? I thought the forum was supposed to be anonymous.
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Old 09-22-2020, 06:24 AM   #98
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Like I said ... semantic word games ... to kill all discussion.


The creepy comments about the humanity of our Savior Jesus Christ are perhaps the most pathetic and sickening this forum has ever had.
If they’re so creepy and bother you, why are you here? It seems like this topic is very interesting for you, personally.

They are not word games. You just need to know the definitions of gender identity, sexuality, etc.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:22 AM   #99
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The Bible never says God was lonely. That would imply the infinite God was needy or lacking, and He sure isn't.

Genesis 1:26 says "Let US make man in Our image...." not "let ME make man in MY image". God wasn't alone at the beginning of creation when He made Adam, and He didn't create man because He was lonely.

If He was gay, then He would have wanted Adam for Himself, and would never have created Eve for Adam.

If God was gay, then why would He make a straight Adam? And Adam was clearly straight because God made Eve. That's a heterosexual relationship. It would be pretty awful of God to have made a straight Adam if He wanted a gay relationship with straight Adam.

So, no, for multiple pretty logical reasons, God's not gay.

God is Spirit. He's not a physical person like us. He is not bounded by space, by time, by physical matter. He is infinite, holds the universe in His hands, knows every star, every hair on your head, He is powerful, moral, personal, more mighty and majestic than we can ever comprehend.
okay you got me there. But consider this: if God said “it is not good for man to be alone”, and God wasn’t alone, then why do some (not all) Christians state that homosexuals should be celibate, and imply that they do not deserve a loving companionship with one they choose?
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:33 AM   #100
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If your girlfriend is a female NOT in a male's body.....then why call her transgender? It seems we are getting away from commonly understood definitions of terms now.
Here you go Trapped and Ohio:

https://www.dummies.com/relationship...e-transgender/

Please read thoroughly and dont be afraid to ask if you have any questions.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:39 AM   #101
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Just for the record, transgender is not mentioned in the Bible, neither for or against it. None of the authors of the books of the Bible, writing in the bronze and iron ages, knew anything about it. Therefore Bible believers have no Biblical standing to be against it.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:45 AM   #102
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You are just so curious about everyone else arent you? I thought the forum was supposed to be anonymous.
You missed the point entirely!

I said the minimum was to pick some moniker.

How else do we have a discussion? When a string of comments can't even be ascribed to a single poster?

Is that too hard to understand?
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:49 AM   #103
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If they’re so creepy and bother you, why are you here? It seems like this topic is very interesting for you, personally.

They are not word games. You just need to know the definitions of gender identity, sexuality, etc.
What's creepy are the attempts to make God in the image of LGBT activists.

But you knew that! Just not honest enough to admit it!

These word definitions are indeed a game. Just read the responses. No dictionary can keep up with the evolutionary semantics of the 21st century.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:51 AM   #104
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Just for the record, transgender is not mentioned in the Bible, neither for or against it. None of the authors of the books of the Bible, writing in the bronze and iron ages, knew anything about it. Therefore Bible believers have no Biblical standing to be against it.
The Bible does address lying with animals. That seems to apply here.
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:53 AM   #105
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The Bible does address lying with animals. That seems to apply here.
Are you comparing and equating same sex loving relationships to bestiality, or one partner of a same sex relationship as an animal? Or both homosexuals as animals? trying to understand, bro Ohio. You cant just lump bestiality and homosexuality together. Both are very different. LGBTQplus does not include people who have animal fetishes., only includes humans. And for your information, heterosexuals also can engage in bestiality. Being transgender is very different than having sex and attraction with an animal. They have attractions to other fellow human beings, so your reasoning doesnt apply here. And if you going to quote the “strange flesh” verse or Paul’s Romans verses, Awareness has a lot to say about that one.
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Old 09-22-2020, 09:18 AM   #106
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Are you comparing and equating same sex loving relationships to bestiality, or one partner of a same sex relationship as an animal? Or both homosexuals as animals? trying to understand, bro Ohio. You cant just lump bestiality and homosexuality together. Both are very different. LGBTQplus does not include people who have animal fetishes., only includes humans.
Some people behave like animals, and it's hard to differentiate them at times. Haven't you heard that there are some people who want to marry their favorite pet? Don't you think that some pets and their owners "love" each other? I have been told that only love is needed for marriage.

Once we decide that marriage is no longer exclusively one man and one woman from birth, then the door is open to almost everything. Or do you discriminate against animals? Are you against polygamy?
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Old 09-22-2020, 09:27 AM   #107
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Some people behave like animals, and it's hard to differentiate them at times. Haven't you heard that there are some people who want to marry their favorite pet? Don't you think that some pets and their owners "love" each other? I have been told that only love is needed for marriage.

Once we decide that marriage is no longer exclusively one man and one woman from birth, then the door is open to anything. Or do you discriminate against animals? Are you against polygamy?
The flaw in your reasoning has to do with consent and position of power.. Animals do not have consent in bestiality and is therefore harmful to the animal. So is pedophilia and necrophilia, incest among father and daughter, rape etc. there’s always one party hurt in the process or being disrespected. Define “door opening to almost everything”. what is the door open to? And homosexuality hasnt linearily led to legalization of other sorts of hanky pank nor does it have an affect on any other kind of relationship.

Polygamy is a whole other issue. Is it causing unhealthy boundaries, nonconsent, disrespect, jealousy in the relationship(s). if so , then it’s not moral. In the Old Testament, major characters were able to have multiple wives, kind david, solomon, abraham, isaac, etc. so it must have been condoned by God at the time. But elsewhere in the bible, the new testament talks about monogamy. The Bible can contradict itself at times.
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Old 09-22-2020, 10:15 AM   #108
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The flaw in your reasoning has to do with consent and position of power.. Animals do not have consent in bestiality and is therefore harmful to the animal. So is pedophilia and necrophilia, incest among father and daughter, rape etc. there’s always one party hurt in the process or being disrespected. Define “door opening to almost everything”. what is the door open to? And homosexuality hasnt linearily led to legalization of other sorts of hanky pank nor does it have an affect on any other kind of relationship.

Polygamy is a whole other issue. Is it causing unhealthy boundaries, nonconsent, disrespect, jealousy in the relationship(s). if so , then it’s not moral. In the Old Testament, major characters were able to have multiple wives, kind david, solomon, abraham, isaac, etc. so it must have been condoned by God at the time. But elsewhere in the bible, the new testament talks about monogamy. The Bible can contradict itself at times.
You bring up "consent and position of power." I agree, but when it comes to LGBTQ marriage, I never have heard this, rather only "love" is cited as the sole defining issue.

Regarding "morality," there is a whole array of diverse standards, which create endless conflicts. This is why I believe only God's standard of morality is valid and universal, i.e. one man and one woman constitute a marriage.
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Old 09-22-2020, 10:42 AM   #109
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Regarding "morality," there is a whole array of diverse standards, which create endless conflicts. This is why I believe only God's standard of morality is valid and universal, i.e. one man and one woman constitute a marriage.
Yes I agree with you that there are different standards for morality, from cultural and historical lens. you can believe in the traditional marriage if you want. I respect that. For me, Im not so much a bible literalist so morality looks different for me
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:53 PM   #110
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I’m here and I’m queer. 🌈 I’m 30 and left the LC at 24. I’m trained as a therapist, I’m an LGBT+ educator, and my primary mode of therapy was gender and sexuality affirmative counseling. Although I’m agnostic now, I’ve personally found a ton of healing in Jewish biblical theology. They do a lot less biblical literalism and rely more on bringing their religion into the real world of today (perhaps minus some ultra orthodox sects). There is plenty of argument out there from both Jewish scholars and Christian scholars alike who argue that the Bible never condemned homosexuality, but instead condemned pedophilia (which was rampant in Greek culture at the time) and infidelity. There are very sound linguistic arguments that anti lgbt+ portions of the Old Testament were purposely mis translated or at the very least translated through biases of the translator and the time. Personally I don’t give much credence to the NT as a source of theology on this topic because I think Paul was skewed on many topics such as marriage and tradition as well as gender and sexuality.

All that to say, there is no concrete agreement among biblical scholars that being gay is wrong or against the Bible. There is plenty of Biblical argument for minding one’s own business and letting people live their walk with God as they are called (see Roman’s 14 for a start). You aren’t going to save anyone from whatever you think damnation is by hating queer people. You’re only going to drive queer people to suicide and give yourselves blood pressure problems in the mean time by being upset about other people’s relationships.
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:22 PM   #111
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You aren’t going to save anyone from whatever you think damnation is by hating queer people. You’re only going to drive queer people to suicide and give yourselves blood pressure problems in the mean time by being upset about other people’s relationships.
Who is hating & upset here? I don't think that four letter word ("hate") needs to be brought up here - we are having a civil discussion, and there is no need to escalate into that kind of accusation (which stops effective communication and can quickly descend into name calling, etc.). Considering the conversation so far, I think it's something of a strawman fallacy to say things like that . . .
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Old 09-22-2020, 02:40 PM   #112
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If your girlfriend is a female NOT in a male's body.....then why call her transgender? It seems we are getting away from commonly understood definitions of terms now.
Did you read my whole post?

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Now, there is a lot of variation in how open transgender individuals are about their transition. Some people don't tell others they are transgender unless they need to know while others post all about the surgeries they have had on the internet.

The things that my girlfriend is comfortable telling people is that she is transgender and that she takes estrogen.
I am not sure why there is confusion about if she is transgender.

When she was a child people told her she was a boy but she never felt that was right. As soon as she was able to as an adult she transitioned to living as a woman.
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Old 09-22-2020, 03:45 PM   #113
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Some people behave like animals, and it's hard to differentiate them at times. Haven't you heard that there are some people who want to marry their favorite pet? Don't you think that some pets and their owners "love" each other? I have been told that only love is needed for marriage.

Once we decide that marriage is no longer exclusively one man and one woman from birth, then the door is open to almost everything. Or do you discriminate against animals? Are you against polygamy?
Your arguing by claiming the Bible has only one way ; one biological man and woman can marry.

But the Bible doesn't say that. In the Bible it's one man and many wives ; polygamy.

And I guess you just gloss over that David loved Jonathan more than women, and that they kissed and got naked together, and Saul condemned Jonathan for it, saying it shamed his mother. So knock it off using the Bible to support your desired morality. It doesn't.
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Old 09-22-2020, 03:50 PM   #114
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Where in this thread have I mentioned same-sex marriage? Or people being happy? In fact, I was alarmed when she said that she was bi, and attracted to men. I brought up my concern because it seemed that may hurt her present happiness.

When God is happy with us, then are not we the most happy too?
If only we knew today what makes God happy. And your reference to the SCOTUS ruling, what ruling then?

And you didn't answer my question of how it's impacting your life.
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Old 09-22-2020, 05:03 PM   #115
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Did you read my whole post?

I am not sure why there is confusion about if she is transgender.

When she was a child people told her she was a boy but she never felt that was right. As soon as she was able to as an adult she transitioned to living as a woman.
Of course I read it. This is a conversation and both sides are expected to listen/read to the other. My question to you still stands.

I understand that you are saying "the person inside the body is a girl and thus the body of that person is a body that belongs to a girl and is thus a girl's body", but you know full well that that's not what I am talking about.

If she is transitioning, what is she transitioning from? If she is taking estrogen, why is she taking estrogen? Obviously it's because the physical body she is in is one that has historically, for thousands of years, been called a "male body", separate from whether the gendered person who possesses that body feels like a man or a woman. Surely you are not disputing that concept, are you? That seems to be at the core of the distress of transgendered people -- the disconnect between their physical body and who they feel they are inside. If that concept has changed, I'd appreciate help understanding what on earth has changed.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:39 PM   #116
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God is Spirit. He's not a physical person like us. He is not bounded by space, by time, by physical matter. He is infinite, holds the universe in His hands,
I guess you're speaking figuratively. If God is Spirit, He doesn't have hands.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:46 PM   #117
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All that to say, there is no concrete agreement among biblical scholars that being gay is wrong or against the Bible. There is plenty of Biblical argument for minding one’s own business and letting people live their walk with God as they are called (see Roman’s 14 for a start). You aren’t going to save anyone from whatever you think damnation is by hating queer people. You’re only going to drive queer people to suicide and give yourselves blood pressure problems in the mean time by being upset about other people’s relationships.
I agree with StG, where are you getting "hating queer people" from? Your post wasn't directed to anyone specific, so it sounds like you are pointing to everyone on this thread. Where have I, for example, said anything remotely like "hating" anyone? And where did I remotely insinuate that I'm upset about other people's relationships??

Glad you're here, but no need to point fingers at people who haven't done any of the things you're pointing fingers at them about.

Romans 14 is about eating or not eating meat, and observing or not observing days. It's not about sexual acts.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:50 PM   #118
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Your post wasn't directed to anyone specific, so it sounds like you are pointing to everyone on this thread.
Not to likely at me. I'm clearly a LGBT+ supporting hetero. They can be whoever they want to be. I support love wherever anyone can find it. It's a rare commodity.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:56 PM   #119
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I guess you're speaking figuratively. If God is Spirit, He doesn't have hands.
Isaiah 40:12
Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens.....

Isaiah 49:16
Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of My hands.....

The Bible says God's got hands.
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Old 09-22-2020, 07:58 PM   #120
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Your arguing by claiming the Bible has only one way ; one biological man and woman can marry.

But the Bible doesn't say that. In the Bible it's one man and many wives ; polygamy.

And I guess you just gloss over that David loved Jonathan more than women, and that they kissed and got naked together, and Saul condemned Jonathan for it, saying it shamed his mother. So knock it off using the Bible to support your desired morality. It doesn't.
The bible tells us that marriage is one man and one woman. The Bible also records many other things, but that doesn't make them right.

The Bible says murder is wrong, but then it records that many murders happened. That doesn't make murder right.

I'd say knock it off that you use recorded events in the Bible to negate the Bible.

Two men together is not marriage. Two women together is not marriage. A man and his dog together is not marriage.

And knock it off with your smear job of David. Yes, he loved Jonathon, but it is your sick mind that equates this love as marriage or sex.
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:09 PM   #121
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Not to likely at me. I'm clearly a LGBT+ supporting hetero. They can be whoever they want to be. I support love wherever anyone can find it. It's a rare commodity.
If it was a healthy love, they wouldn't accuse others of hating them right in the middle of a discussion.

Like I have continually said, the LGBT have special rights and the highest per capita income levels, then why do they constantly play the victim.
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:12 PM   #122
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Isaiah 40:12
Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens.....

Isaiah 49:16
Behold, I have engraved you on the palms of My hands.....

The Bible says God's got hands.
How in the world would awareness know that God doesn't have hands?

Has he become the forum know-it-all ever since he was made the Moderator of the Age?
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:19 PM   #123
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Of course I read it. This is a conversation and both sides are expected to listen/read to the other. My question to you still stands.

I understand that you are saying "the person inside the body is a girl and thus the body of that person is a body that belongs to a girl and is thus a girl's body", but you know full well that that's not what I am talking about.

If she is transitioning, what is she transitioning from? If she is taking estrogen, why is she taking estrogen? Obviously it's because the physical body she is in is one that has historically, for thousands of years, been called a "male body", separate from whether the gendered person who possesses that body feels like a man or a woman. Surely you are not disputing that concept, are you? That seems to be at the core of the distress of transgendered people -- the disconnect between their physical body and who they feel they are inside. If that concept has changed, I'd appreciate help understanding what on earth has changed.
I have been told by a counselor who counsels trans genders that for trans to feel "normal" or healthy, they must be convinced that the entire world must be wrong. Thousands of years and billions of people all wrong to prove trans are OK. Something is seriously wrong with this picture. I doubt that God would place someone like this in the world knowing this entire world was wrong.
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Old 09-22-2020, 09:46 PM   #124
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If it was a healthy love, they wouldn't accuse others of hating them right in the middle of a discussion.

Like I have continually said, the LGBT have special rights and the highest per capita income levels, then why do they constantly play the victim.
I guess you're just unable to imagine why. While your imagination seems to work fine when it comes to the Bible.
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Old 09-22-2020, 10:10 PM   #125
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If it was a healthy love, they wouldn't accuse others of hating them right in the middle of a discussion.

Like I have continually said, the LGBT have special rights and the highest per capita income levels, then why do they constantly play the victim.
The first statement doesnt make sense. How does one’s relationship correlate with how they act on this forum? A lot of projection ohio.

They do not have the highest per capita income levels. Show me the evidence. The homeless population here is mostly consisted of lgbtq. Why? Because their parents kicked them out. that in itself shows they are a victim of society. And I am not rich. i live paycheck to paycheck. Maybe you’re just angry because you think that lgbtq people are stealing your wealth? thats ludicrous.
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Old 09-23-2020, 06:38 AM   #126
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Yes I agree with you that there are different standards for morality, from cultural and historical lens. you can believe in the traditional marriage if you want. I respect that. For me, Im not so much a bible literalist so morality looks different for me
Where does your morality come from?

That's a serious question with no tone behind it. It's one that Christian apologists and their atheist debate partners spar on over and over. The boiled down version is that one side has an objective standard of morality outside themselves (God/Bible), and one side says there is no objective standard, and that the standard for each person is subjective.

Do either of those describe how you determine what is moral, good/bad, right/wrong? If not, how would you describe it for you?
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Old 09-23-2020, 06:55 AM   #127
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okay you got me there. But consider this: if God said “it is not good for man to be alone”, and God wasn’t alone, then why do some (not all) Christians state that homosexuals should be celibate, and imply that they do not deserve a loving companionship with one they choose?
I have some thoughts about this, probably none of which will be satisfying to anyone here. Your question is basically one of the THE big questions, and I know I'm not going to be the one to solve this painful struggle. I'm just posting this to let you know that I've seen your question and haven't forgotten about it. I will respond when I can, but it won't be right away. I am at the edge of my capacity in my non-forum life, and need some time to think about your question, because it's such an important one.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:11 AM   #128
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I'm curious. How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? The New Testament doesn't say anything explicitly about his sexuality one way or the other. It doesn't even say if he was married or not. So people seem to assume he was a celibate heterosexual. Based on what? And why did the authors leave the door open for speculation? Ideas?
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How do we know that Jesus was heterosexual? How do we know he wasn't an Antifa protester who was out looting, catching chariots on fire and seeking to defund the Roman army? The New Testament doesn't say one way or another? What the NT does say is that Jesus was a Jew who observed the law., in fact he was a Rabbi and spoke in the temple and many synagogues throughout Isreal.

Homosexual sex was punishable by death. So the NT writers would leave out something as significant as Jesus being married? Doubtful.
I just want to echo our visitor Humperdinck's answer on this one (zeek, welcome back!)

Keep in mind that Jesus was a known figure, thronged by crowds much of the time, and most importantly was always being watched and scrutinized so the Pharisees, etc could find a reason to do away with Him. If there was a single HINT of homosexual activity on Jesus' part, the religious guys after Him would have pounced before they could say "aha!" since it was, as Humperdinck said, punishable by death. They were looking for any reason to kill Him. And yet Jesus was with a group of guys all throughout the time of His earthly ministry and the religious establishment still had nothing to charge Him with in that regard. They muttered and complained about His speaking to women, eating with prostitutes and tax collectors and sinners, but we never read a word about them scheming about any homosexual suspicions.

I'm all for no question being off the table when it comes to grappling with the Bible. I hope the sincere and reasoned responses you are getting don't just "glance off" of you, but actually settle some of these questions sufficiently.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:21 AM   #129
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Like I have to come to question standards of morality. If homosexuals are to be jusged for their behaviors, then heterosexuals with divorces, cheating, incest, pedophilia, etc should also be questioned regarding whether these behaviors are appropriate and healthy.
Okay, sure, that seems pretty straightforward. Do you come across many people who think divorces, cheating, incest, pedophilia, etc, are appropriate and healthy for heterosexuals though? I don't know of anyone who has said that here on the forum, and as I'm thinking about it, I don't know of anyone even in my LIFE who has said anything like that! Are there debates and disagreements out there that these things are healthy??

Everyone is judged by their behaviors, homosexual or heterosexual, or other. The question is, what is the standard by which people are judged? That's part of what my question a few posts ago to you about where you get your morality from was about. We are ultimately talking about differing (not better, not worse, just different) standards.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:35 AM   #130
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I just want to echo our visitor Humperdinck's answer on this one (zeek, welcome back!)

Keep in mind that Jesus was a known figure, thronged by crowds much of the time, and most importantly was always being watched and scrutinized so the Pharisees, etc could find a reason to do away with Him. If there was a single HINT of homosexual activity on Jesus' part, the religious guys after Him would have pounced before they could say "aha!" since it was, as Humperdinck said, punishable by death. They were looking for any reason to kill Him. And yet Jesus was with a group of guys all throughout the time of His earthly ministry and the religious establishment still had nothing to charge Him with in that regard. They muttered and complained about His speaking to women, eating with prostitutes and tax collectors and sinners, but we never read a word about them scheming about any homosexual suspicions.

I'm all for no question being off the table when it comes to grappling with the Bible. I hope the sincere and reasoned responses you are getting don't just "glance off" of you, but actually settle some of these questions sufficiently.
Thank you for the welcome, Trapped. Since the New Testament says nothing about Jesus' sexuality, he may have been a celibate homosexual which would not be a violation of Torah law. The same may be true of Paul. I don't know and I don't think anybody else does either. The New Testament is strangely mum about the sexuality of these men. Whether by accident or design the issue is left open. The ambiguity allows for a more inclusive interpretation than the traditional view.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:53 AM   #131
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Thank you for the welcome. Since the New Testament says nothing about Jesus' sexuality, he may have been a celibate homosexual which would not be a violation of Torah law. The same may be true of Paul. I don't know and I don't think anybody else does either. The New Testament is strangely mum about the sexuality of these men. Whether by accident or design the issue is left open. The ambiguity allows for a more inclusive interpretation than the traditional view.
The NT is equally mum about whether Jesus killed anyone or didn't kill anyone, stole anything or didn't steal, coveted or didn't covet, liked His meat cooked rare or well done......does anyone consider that "strangely mum" or issues that are "left open"? The NT writers probably could never have imagined people 2,000 years later reasonably positing that the Son of God who came to seek and to save those who are lost was a homosexual!

And if this discussion is couched in Jesus, and if you want to reasonably suggest what you've suggested, then His being a celibate homosexual, and an example to those claiming to be Christian, means His is the example to follow when it comes to what people who have homosexual attractions should do. To suggest Jesus was a celibate homosexual doesn't seem to be a desirable suggestion for homosexuals who want the Bible/Jesus to support their desire for a homosexual relationship.

What does suggesting that Jesus was a celibate homosexual (the very two things no one wants paired together) gain for anyone?
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:24 AM   #132
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Where does your morality come from?

That's a serious question with no tone behind it. It's one that Christian apologists and their atheist debate partners spar on over and over. The boiled down version is that one side has an objective standard of morality outside themselves (God/Bible), and one side says there is no objective standard, and that the standard for each person is subjective.

Do either of those describe how you determine what is moral, good/bad, right/wrong? If not, how would you describe it for you?
Long story short, my morality is based on a combination of loose interpretation of bible, my personal subjective experiences of what is right and wrong that goes with my conscience and God. Life is full of gray areas so I cant say for sure what moral or immoral unless you give me a specific scenario. Like for example, Christians label the story of Sodom and Gomorahh as saying homosexuality is bad. but what kind of homosexuality? The people in those cities wanted to rape the angels/guests of Lot and Lot even offered up his two daughters for them to ganga rape in exchange for doing good hospitality and protection of the angel guests. Yet, Chrisitians use this story so much to condemn loving concensual homosexual relationships. For me, the immorality or reason why God may have destroyed the two cities was because of their disconcern and rude way of treating their guests, gang rape (forced sexual relations). For me, Lot was also immoral offering his daughter like that. But God didnt seem to care about Lot’s actions. He focused on the people in the citites who wanted to gang rape the angels.
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:26 AM   #133
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The NT is equally mum about whether Jesus killed anyone or didn't kill anyone, stole anything or didn't steal, coveted or didn't covet, liked His meat cooked rare or well done......does anyone consider that "strangely mum" or issues that are "left open"? The NT writers probably could never have imagined people 2,000 years later reasonably positing that the Son of God who came to seek and to save those who are lost was a homosexual!

And if this discussion is couched in Jesus, and if you want to reasonably suggest what you've suggested, then His being a celibate homosexual, and an example to those claiming to be Christian, means His is the example to follow when it comes to what people who have homosexual attractions should do. To suggest Jesus was a celibate homosexual doesn't seem to be a desirable suggestion for homosexuals who want the Bible/Jesus to support their desire for a homosexual relationship.

What does suggesting that Jesus was a celibate homosexual (the very two things no one wants paired together) gain for anyone?
My point is that I don't know, and I don't think you or anyone else does either, because I don't think the New Testament makes a factual statement about it one way or the other. That strikes me as odd and perhaps meaningful.

I've read other classical literature and usually the sexuality of the major subjects of the texts is characterized. We know quite a bit about the sexuality of Socrates , the Caesars and St. Augustine as examples. But, nothing about the sexuality of Jesus, the putative perfect man of the Christian religion.

So I'm asking the question: why? And it seems, as often the case, when I question the assumptions of people, they become defensive about it.
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:35 AM   #134
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Thank you for the welcome. Since the New Testament says nothing about Jesus' sexuality, he may have been a celibate homosexual which would not be a violation of Torah law. The same may be true of Paul. I don't know and I don't think anybody else does either. The New Testament is strangely mum about the sexuality of these men. Whether by accident or design the issue is left open. The ambiguity allows for a more inclusive interpretation than the traditional view.
If only I was there. If Jesus and Paul were celibate gays, if they were light in the loafers, rather sandals, limp-wristed, and speaking with a lisp, I would have spotted it the minute I looked at them. I learned that gift from gay brothers in the local church.

But I wasn't there, and neither were any of us. All we've got is a skimpy record.

But we do have : Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:40 AM   #135
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My point is that I don't know, and I don't think you or anyone else does either, because I don't think the New Testament makes a factual statement about it one way or the other. That strikes me as odd and perhaps meaningful.

I've read other classical literature and usually the sexuality of the major subjects of the texts is characterized. We know quite a bit about the sexuality of Socrates , the Caesars and St. Augustine as examples. But, nothing about the sexuality of Jesus, the putative perfect man of the Christian religion.

So I'm asking the question: why? And it seems, as often the case, when I question the assumptions of people, they become defensive about it.
I concur. If God wanted us to know and to avoid so much heartbreak over the issue, he should have been more clear about Jesus since Hems the Son of God Or maybe he doesnt care, but then why all the secrecy?
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:42 AM   #136
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But I wasn't there, and neither were any of us. All we've got is a skimpy record.

But we do have : Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed
sorry this part made me laugh so hard
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Old 09-23-2020, 09:57 AM   #137
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Keep in mind that Jesus was a known figure, thronged by crowds much of the time, and most importantly was always being watched and scrutinized so the Pharisees, etc could find a reason to do away with Him. If there was a single HINT of homosexual activity on Jesus' part, the religious guys after Him would have pounced before they could say "aha!" since it was, as Humperdinck said, punishable by death.

They were looking for any reason to kill Him. And yet Jesus was with a group of guys all throughout the time of His earthly ministry and the religious establishment still had nothing to charge Him with in that regard. They muttered and complained about His speaking to women, eating with prostitutes and tax collectors and sinners, but we never read a word about them scheming about any homosexual suspicions.
Many thanks to Trapped and Humperdinck for expressing an obvious rebuttal from the gospels and refuting the pathetic and scurrilous accusations against our beloved Savior, Jesus Christ. It did serve, however, to expose the crooked hearts of zeek, awareness, and others on this thread.

Peter spoke specifically about such ones, "But also among you will be false prophets and teachers, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2.1)
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:16 AM   #138
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But we do have : Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed
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sorry this part made me laugh so hard
But, of course, the Bible never says "two men" in one bed, it simply says "two."

KJV added "men" in italics to, I suppose, identify two humans, rather than a couple of dogs or perhaps MyPillows.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:44 AM   #139
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But, of course, the Bible never says "two men" in one bed, it simply says "two."

KJV added "men" in italics to, I suppose, identify two humans, rather than a couple of dogs or perhaps MyPillows.
You are so very creative, bro!
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:46 AM   #140
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Okay, sure, that seems pretty straightforward. Do you come across many people who think divorces, cheating, incest, pedophilia, etc, are appropriate and healthy for heterosexuals though? I don't know of anyone who has said that here on the forum, and as I'm thinking about it, I don't know of anyone even in my LIFE who has said anything like that! Are there debates and disagreements out there that these things are healthy??
Perhaps you have not heard about this recent legislation in California ...

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Kamala Harris together with California State senator Scott Wiener sponsored the most disgusting & terrifying bill SB-145 that just got passed into law in California which makes it perfectly legal for a 24 year old to have sex with a 14 year old. As long as the age difference isn't more than 10 years and the minor consents it's perfectly fine!! In order words, an adult can have sex with any child as long as the age difference is not more than 10 years. And Scott Wiener is not married and does not have a kid, but claims to know what is good for your kids. Yes, you read that right, pedophilia is perfectly legal in the state of California thanks to Scott Wiener and Kamala Harris.
Not only did Kamala jail pot-smokers and then laugh about it with Charlamagne, she has now legalized what society had condemned Michael Jackson and Jeffrey Epstein for doing.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:55 AM   #141
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Perhaps you have not heard about this recent legislation in California ...

Not only did Kamala jail pot-smokers and then laugh about it with Charlamagne, she has now legalized what society had condemned Michael Jackson for doing.
Did it get passed into law? What I read said it was headed to the gov's desk. (and it appears to reduce penalties, not make it legal)

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SACRAMENTO (KUSI) September 4 – A California bill that would lower penalties for sexual relations with minors is heading to Governor Newsom’s desk.

SB 145 passed both legislative houses, and would remove the requirement for offenders to register as a sex offender after committing certain sex acts with minors within a 10-year age difference.

The legislation applies in cases where the victim is aged between 14 and 17 years old. It also tries to remove existing the registration requirement for having oral and anal sex.

Both the California state senate and assembly voted to approve SB 145, which had Republican opposition in the Senate and even bipartisan opposition in the assembly.

SB 145 was introduced by State Senator Scott Weiner, says it was designed to treat LGBT offenders the same as heterosexual offenders. Weiner cites a similar exemption already in place from mandatory registration for partners of a similar age difference.

“If signed into law, a 24-year-old could have sexual relations with a 15-year-old child without being required to register as a sex offender,” Senate Republican Leader Shannon Grove tweeted Tuesday.
SEE HERE
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:04 AM   #142
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Many thanks to Trapped and Humperdinck for expressing an obvious rebuttal from the gospels and refuting the pathetic and scurrilous accusations against our beloved Savior, Jesus Christ. It did serve, however, to expose the crooked hearts of zeek, awareness, and others on this thread.

Peter spoke specifically about such ones, "But also among you will be false prophets and teachers, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2.1)
Hi Ohio. I see you are as opposed as ever to new thinking. Once again you resort to personal attack, judgment and condemnation.

By the way I wonder what happened to our buddy ZNP. We had a lot of interesting conversations with him back in the day.

Anyway, I wish all the best to you and your family in these difficult times.
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Old 09-23-2020, 12:33 PM   #143
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Hi Ohio. I see you are as opposed as ever to new thinking. Once again you resort to personal attack, judgment and condemnation.

By the way I wonder what happened to our buddy ZNP. We had a lot of interesting conversations with him back in the day.

Anyway, I wish all the best to you and your family in these difficult times.
Nice to see you too zeek. Glad to see you are surviving this DemPanic.

I'm am not opposed to any "new thinking," rather I believe all new thinking must be vetted for value, veracity, and virtue. Assaulting the personal integrity of the holy Lamb of God qualifies for none of these.

It truly amazes me that you would consider attacks on the virtue and character of Jesus Christ as merely an acceptable forum inquiry, and yet make my expected responses to these posts a "personal attack" to yourself.

I just saw a recent post on the forum by ZNP. Being a teacher from NYC, he has faced much greater hardship than most.
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Old 09-23-2020, 12:37 PM   #144
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Did it get passed into law? What I read said it was headed to the gov's desk. (and it appears to reduce penalties, not make it legal)
CA Governor Newsom signed it into law on 9/11.

Did you hear Michael Jackson and Jeffrey Epstein holler from the grave, "why only ten years?"
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:27 PM   #145
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CA Governor Newsom signed it into law on 9/11
Yes, I saw that afterward. In the extreme, a 24 year old could have "consensual" homosexual sex with a 14 year old, and they won't have to register as a sex offender. Previously (as I understand it), in a different sex situation, the adult didn't have to register as a sex offender, and now this also applies to homosexual situations . . . again, potentially between a 24 and 14 year old.

Is this correct?

If so, I can more fully see what some warned us about - what a slippery slope we're sliding down now!
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Old 09-23-2020, 03:59 PM   #146
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But, of course, the Bible never says "two men" in one bed, it simply says "two."

KJV added "men" in italics to, I suppose, identify two humans, rather than a couple of dogs or perhaps MyPillows.
Many translations besides the KJV has "two men," including the ASV, Darby, and many others.

Besides, before modernity, it wasn't uncommon for two men to sleep in the same bed together. And I suppose no one is concerned when two women sleep in the same bed together. And they can grind together too, it goes on to say, in verse 35.

Again, these verses only goes to prove that the record is skimpy, leaving it open to question.

Now, more importantly, just because you hate this thread doesn't mean you should be trying to sabotage it.
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Old 09-23-2020, 04:43 PM   #147
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Many translations besides the KJV has "two men," including the ASV, Darby, and many others.

Besides, before modernity, it wasn't uncommon for two men to sleep in the same bed together. And I suppose no one is concerned when two women sleep in the same bed together. And they can grind together too, it goes on to say, in verse 35.

Again, these verses only goes to prove that the record is skimpy, leaving it open to question.

Now, more importantly, just because you hate this thread doesn't mean you should be trying to sabotage it.
I told you what the Greek said "duo" -- "TWO." Look it up. Whenever the Bible or translators refers to people, they normally say "men" or perhaps use the inflected ending for male gender. Sometimes not. The English language has very few gender specific words (e.g. his, her) so most Americans don't understand that nouns and pronouns in other languages often have inflected endings.

A while ago you said God was female because the word for "wisdom" is feminine. Today you are implying that Jesus is gay because the Bible was silent about it. The reader should be aware that you have a severe bias against God, His word, and His people.

How do you know what was "common" before "modernity?" Were you there? Human nature has not changed, only technology, and I assert that it made many of us more stupid.

Once again your mind is in the gutter bro. "Grind together" (Lk 17.35) is in the flour mill, and is not a sexual act. You also have gender stereotypes here. The verse says "duo" -- "TWO." The verse does NOT say "two women." All of that is assumed by translators.

Each verse in Luke 17:34, 35, 36 refers to "two" or "duo" in Greek. The word "men" in v 34 and v 36 is added. The word "women" in v 35 is added.

Obviously you can twist any verse to say what you want. It's a habit of yours. At least try to maintain a little integrity about what the scripture says.

Obviously I don't hate this thread, as you suppose. I have presented a number of unique perspectives which no one has responded to. Perhaps you also are afraid of the honest truth?
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Old 09-23-2020, 04:49 PM   #148
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Yes, I saw that afterward. In the extreme, a 24 year old could have "consensual" homosexual sex with a 14 year old, and they won't have to register as a sex offender. Previously (as I understand it), in a different sex situation, the adult didn't have to register as a sex offender, and now this also applies to homosexual situations . . . again, potentially between a 24 and 14 year old.

Is this correct?

If so, I can more fully see what some warned us about - what a slippery slope we're sliding down now!
“Before SB-145, an 18-year-old male convicted of having oral or anal sex with a 17-year-old male would be required to register as a sex offender, while a 24-year-old male convicted of having penile-vaginal sex with a 15-year-old female would not be automatically required to register – it would be left up to the judge”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...lifornia%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.abc...0-c745cad03c80

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/3456171001

Anyways, this is concerning since I live in California.

Okay reading further into the bill, I can see why it was changed:” One thing that appears to have been lost in this discussion and is obscured by the comments Gonzalez, Bry and Faulconer have made: Sex with a 14-year-old is illegal. It was illegal before SB 145, and it remains illegal now.

SB 145 addresses a disparity in the law specifically with regard to whether people who commit sexual offenses must also register as a sex offender.

Before SB 145, the law treated statutory rape cases – in which the victim is between 14 and 17 and the perpetrator is between the ages of 18 and 24 and within 10 years of a victim’s age – differently depending on whether the people involved were gay or straight. In cases involving vaginal penetration, a judge had the discretion to decide whether the perpetrator should be placed on the sex offender registry; but in cases involving anal or oral intercourse, common forms of sexual intercourse for gay couples, the sex offender registry was mandatory. SB 145 allows the same judicial discretion for all cases.

Sen. Scott Weiner, who is gay and wrote the bill, said this bill is about equal treatment under the law.

“An 18-year-old having sexual intercourse with a 17-year-old is different than a 24-year-old teacher having sex with a 14-year-old student. Most judges in that case would say that person would go on the registry because there’s a power imbalance and it’s never appropriate,” he said.

Wiener said the fact that the law treats sex crimes in which there’s an age gap of 10 or fewer years differently is a separate issue that would require another bill to address.

“It’s important to distinguish the broader structure of sex offender registry. People can have whatever views they want about the 10-year discretionary standard,” Weiner said. “It’s a separate issue regardless of what structure. It is what it’s been for 76 years. The question is: Should gay people be treated the same as straight people? Our equality should not be conditioned on making some broader change to the sex offender registry.”

Dan Felizzatto, a deputy district attorney in the Los Angeles County DA’s office, echoed that statement and said legislators could introduce new legislation to change how that 10-year age gap is addressed, but thinks expanding the registry would pose its own challenges. He said law enforcement wants to be able to use the sex offender registry as it was originally intended – as an investigatory tool and to monitor serial predators.

Rick Zbur, Equality California’s executive director, said it’s been common throughout the struggle for LGBTQ rights for opponents to advance a narrative that LGBTQ individuals are deviants or predators.”
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Old 09-23-2020, 05:13 PM   #149
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I have presented a number of unique perspectives which no one has responded to
Which persoectives havent been responded to? Is it the sports one? You havent responded to one of the poster’s questions regarding how lgbtq rights affect you.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:06 PM   #150
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Which persoectives havent been responded to? Is it the sports one? You havent responded to one of the poster’s questions regarding how lgbtq rights affect you.
That's right. I will not divulge personal hardships. None of your business.

I have addressed damages to society as a whole, and women in particular, by the trans movement. None has been willing to discuss that.

Then my posts were regularly distorted. Pretty disingenuous.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:18 PM   #151
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“Before SB-145, an 18-year-old male convicted of having oral or anal sex with a 17-year-old male would be required to register as a sex offender, while a 24-year-old male convicted of having penile-vaginal sex with a 15-year-old female would not be automatically required to register – it would be left up to the judge”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill...lifornia%3famp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.abc...0-c745cad03c80

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...amp/3456171001

Anyways, this is concerning since I live in California.

Okay reading further into the bill, I can see why it was changed:” One thing that appears to have been lost in this discussion and is obscured by the comments Gonzalez, Bry and Faulconer have made: Sex with a 14-year-old is illegal. It was illegal before SB 145, and it remains illegal now.

SB 145 addresses a disparity in the law specifically with regard to whether people who commit sexual offenses must also register as a sex offender.

Before SB 145, the law treated statutory rape cases – in which the victim is between 14 and 17 and the perpetrator is between the ages of 18 and 24 and within 10 years of a victim’s age – differently depending on whether the people involved were gay or straight. In cases involving vaginal penetration, a judge had the discretion to decide whether the perpetrator should be placed on the sex offender registry; but in cases involving anal or oral intercourse, common forms of sexual intercourse for gay couples, the sex offender registry was mandatory. SB 145 allows the same judicial discretion for all cases.

Sen. Scott Weiner, who is gay and wrote the bill, said this bill is about equal treatment under the law.

“An 18-year-old having sexual intercourse with a 17-year-old is different than a 24-year-old teacher having sex with a 14-year-old student. Most judges in that case would say that person would go on the registry because there’s a power imbalance and it’s never appropriate,” he said.

Wiener said the fact that the law treats sex crimes in which there’s an age gap of 10 or fewer years differently is a separate issue that would require another bill to address.

“It’s important to distinguish the broader structure of sex offender registry. People can have whatever views they want about the 10-year discretionary standard,” Weiner said. “It’s a separate issue regardless of what structure. It is what it’s been for 76 years. The question is: Should gay people be treated the same as straight people? Our equality should not be conditioned on making some broader change to the sex offender registry.”

Dan Felizzatto, a deputy district attorney in the Los Angeles County DA’s office, echoed that statement and said legislators could introduce new legislation to change how that 10-year age gap is addressed, but thinks expanding the registry would pose its own challenges. He said law enforcement wants to be able to use the sex offender registry as it was originally intended – as an investigatory tool and to monitor serial predators.

Rick Zbur, Equality California’s executive director, said it’s been common throughout the struggle for LGBTQ rights for opponents to advance a narrative that LGBTQ individuals are deviants or predators.”
Every adult over 18 years knows that sex with a minor is against the law.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:43 PM   #152
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Obviously I don't hate this thread, as you suppose. I have presented a number of unique perspectives which no one has responded to. Perhaps you also are afraid of the honest truth?
Well you've been honest, admitting that you stand on the Bible, and therefore LGBTQ+ are an abomination to God. So your unique views are just covering for your real views.

We've got it. There's no since in carrying on. The gays know the applicable verses better than most Bible Thumpers. They are used as ammunition against them.

So stop shooting.
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Old 09-23-2020, 08:12 PM   #153
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Here you go Trapped and Ohio:

https://www.dummies.com/relationship...e-transgender/

Please read thoroughly and dont be afraid to ask if you have any questions.
This is what impressed me :
"Until you have a chance to get to know some people who identify as transgender and hear their stories, it’s natural to be confused or to have questions or concerns. Everyone has been there at one time or another!"
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:19 PM   #154
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Every adult over 18 years knows that sex with a minor is against the law.
As a therapist in California, as a mandated reporter for child abuse, I dont have to report if a 15 year old is having sex with a 20 year old. The cut off is 14 years old. So your legality claims are wrong. Now, if it’s a matter of ethics and morality, thats a different issue. Some laws are unethical. Ethics and law are not necessarily not always on same page.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:20 PM   #155
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Of course I read it. This is a conversation and both sides are expected to listen/read to the other. My question to you still stands.

I understand that you are saying "the person inside the body is a girl and thus the body of that person is a body that belongs to a girl and is thus a girl's body", but you know full well that that's not what I am talking about.

If she is transitioning, what is she transitioning from? If she is taking estrogen, why is she taking estrogen? Obviously it's because the physical body she is in is one that has historically, for thousands of years, been called a "male body", separate from whether the gendered person who possesses that body feels like a man or a woman. Surely you are not disputing that concept, are you? That seems to be at the core of the distress of transgendered people -- the disconnect between their physical body and who they feel they are inside. If that concept has changed, I'd appreciate help understanding what on earth has changed.
I just want to come in here and say that, yes, how we talk about transgender individuals has changed.

There has been a move away from gender dysphoria being an essential part of the definition of being transgender. Gender dysphoria is still a common experience, but with improvements in treatment for transgender children it may become less and less common. And I don't mean that people are doing surgery on children, not at all.
Gender affirming behaviour towards children and young adults can reduce and even eliminate gender dysphoria.
And puberty blockers can delay puberty until one is old enough to decide if they want to take hormone replacement therapy and/or have surgery.

There has also been increased understanding that biological sex is made up of five factors, not one or two.
These are chromosones, gonads, hormones, internal reproductive anatomy and external genitalia.
When a child is born, or in these cases even before they are born, there external genitalia is used to determine if they are a boy or a girl. Only in cases where it is unclear will they do something like test chromosones (this usually indicates a type of intersex condition, but not all intersex conditions are diagnosed at birth).
So, even with intersex children, after birth a gender is assigned to them and recorded on their birth certificate. This is where you may see people saying "I'm AFAB" or "AMAB", assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth.

For most people all their biological sex, their assigned gender and their own gender identity match.
In cases where some of the biological sex markers do not match their assigned gender, they are intersex.
In cases where assigned gender does not match their gender identity, they are called transgender.
Someone can be both or neither.

Going back to the five markers of biological sex, some of these can be changed with medical intervention.

Chromosomes- unchangeable, but the one with the least impact. I don't even know if my sex chromosomes are XX. I just assume so.

Gonads- can be removed, but as yet can't be replaced with working alternatives.

Internal reproductive anatomy- similar to gonads, can be removed but not yet replaced.

Hormones- completely changeable. Hormones replacement therapy is the most common treatment option for people who are transgender. I have friends who I have known since we were children and I have watched the impact that taking hormones has had on them. It changes how they look, it changes how they sound and it even has changes on their emotions.

External genitalia- the one everyone obsesses about. Yes, many transgender people get or want to get surgery down there. But it does not have that much impact on their day to day lives as hormone replacement therapy. How many people outside yourself, your spouse and your doctor see your private parts on a regular basis?


I hope this has been an educational post
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:26 PM   #156
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This is what impressed me :
"Until you have a chance to get to know some people who identify as transgender and hear their stories, it’s natural to be confused or to have questions or concerns. Everyone has been there at one time or another!"
I agree with this statement so much!

Having friends come out as transgender and non-binary and explain their experiences to me really has helped me understand so much more and to think more about my own experience with my own gender.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:27 PM   #157
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Every adult over 18 years knows that sex with a minor is against the law.
When did this become an discussion about the age of consent???
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:28 PM   #158
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That's right. I will not divulge personal hardships. None of your business.

I have addressed damages to society as a whole, and women in particular, by the trans movement. None has been willing to discuss that.

Then my posts were regularly distorted. Pretty disingenuous.
Because it doesnt affect you. Only the sports issues because your son is in it. A lot of trans people are not in sports. Why don’t you address that?

Surely you havent been reading any of the posts above regarding other’s perspectives
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:31 PM   #159
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That's right. I will not divulge personal hardships. None of your business.

I have addressed damages to society as a whole, and women in particular, by the trans movement. None has been willing to discuss that.

Then my posts were regularly distorted. Pretty disingenuous.
Personally I have not been discussing it because I do not see any damage being done to ciswomen, only damage being done to transwomen, transmen and intersex women.

Yes, there are predators, but they can be of any gender identity.
There is plenty of evidence to show that men do not need to dress up as women to be a danger to women.
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:32 PM   #160
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Surely this article may change some minds.. or not:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...s-gay-probably
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Old 09-23-2020, 10:37 PM   #161
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If it was a healthy love, they wouldn't accuse others of hating them right in the middle of a discussion.

Like I have continually said, the LGBT have special rights and the highest per capita income levels, then why do they constantly play the victim.
Source?

Because I have a source which shows they are more likely to be in poverty

https://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/lgbt
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:30 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by clever sister View Post
I just want to come in here and say that, yes, how we talk about transgender individuals has changed.

There has been a move away from gender dysphoria being an essential part of the definition of being transgender. Gender dysphoria is still a common experience, but with improvements in treatment for transgender children it may become less and less common. And I don't mean that people are doing surgery on children, not at all.
Gender affirming behaviour towards children and young adults can reduce and even eliminate gender dysphoria.
And puberty blockers can delay puberty until one is old enough to decide if they want to take hormone replacement therapy and/or have surgery.

There has also been increased understanding that biological sex is made up of five factors, not one or two.
These are chromosones, gonads, hormones, internal reproductive anatomy and external genitalia.
When a child is born, or in these cases even before they are born, there external genitalia is used to determine if they are a boy or a girl. Only in cases where it is unclear will they do something like test chromosones (this usually indicates a type of intersex condition, but not all intersex conditions are diagnosed at birth).
So, even with intersex children, after birth a gender is assigned to them and recorded on their birth certificate. This is where you may see people saying "I'm AFAB" or "AMAB", assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth.

For most people all their biological sex, their assigned gender and their own gender identity match.
In cases where some of the biological sex markers do not match their assigned gender, they are intersex.
In cases where assigned gender does not match their gender identity, they are called transgender.
Someone can be both or neither.

Going back to the five markers of biological sex, some of these can be changed with medical intervention.

Chromosomes- unchangeable, but the one with the least impact. I don't even know if my sex chromosomes are XX. I just assume so.

Gonads- can be removed, but as yet can't be replaced with working alternatives.

Internal reproductive anatomy- similar to gonads, can be removed but not yet replaced.

Hormones- completely changeable. Hormones replacement therapy is the most common treatment option for people who are transgender. I have friends who I have known since we were children and I have watched the impact that taking hormones has had on them. It changes how they look, it changes how they sound and it even has changes on their emotions.

External genitalia- the one everyone obsesses about. Yes, many transgender people get or want to get surgery down there. But it does not have that much impact on their day to day lives as hormone replacement therapy. How many people outside yourself, your spouse and your doctor see your private parts on a regular basis?


I hope this has been an educational post
And that it is. Thanks so much. I now feel that I finally understand transgender. Excellent work, and presentation. You're a gem. Thanks for being on this thread.
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:57 AM   #163
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That's right. I will not divulge personal hardships. None of your business.
Or ... prolly ... you haven't been impacted by same sex marriage at all.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:57 AM   #164
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Nice to see you too zeek. Glad to see you are surviving this DemPanic.

I'm am not opposed to any "new thinking," rather I believe all new thinking must be vetted for value, veracity, and virtue. Assaulting the personal integrity of the holy Lamb of God qualifies for none of these.

It truly amazes me that you would consider attacks on the virtue and character of Jesus Christ as merely an acceptable forum inquiry, and yet make my expected responses to these posts a "personal attack" to yourself.

I just saw a recent post on the forum by ZNP. Being a teacher from NYC, he has faced much greater hardship than most.
I didn't question Jesus' virtue or character. I asserted that the Bible makes no explicit statement about his marital status or sexuality thus leaving the matter open for speculation.

You accused me of "trolling", having "a crooked heart" and implied that I was a "false prophet" worthy of "swift destruction" by quoting 2 Peter 2.1. I'll let others decide for themselves if that was a personal attack on me or not.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:50 AM   #165
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Surely this article may change some minds.. or not:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...s-gay-probably
That should bunch up Ohio's knickers. And help to take the heat off of brother zeek and I.

So then, others have questioned if Jesus was homosexual or not. Never mind the beloved disciple John as a sign. What about the fact that he recruited young naked boys? Add that to John, as evidence, and there's a strong possibility that he was gay, tho likely in practice asexual, or celibate gay, or whatever.

And again, if it was found for certain that he was gay, would we still love him?

And if I "love him" does that make me, a male, gay?
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:00 AM   #166
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After the weekly brothers' breakfast this morning, one brother made a comment to a few of us I'd never thought about. He said that most women are probably more accepting of homosexuality, because they've not been in a position where they have felt that threatened by it. On the other hand, many men have experienced this from other males (sometimes in an aggressive way). Therefore men may tend to feel less accepting of homosexuals than women.
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:15 AM   #167
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So the Guardian says Jesus was gay?

Right. And the National Inquirer says that John the Baptist was a cross-dresser and Martha and Mary were drag queens!
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:31 AM   #168
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So the Guardian says Jesus was gay?

Right. And the National Inquirer says that John the Baptist was a cross-dresser and Martha and Mary were drag queens!
https://assets2.hrc.org/files/assets...osexuality.pdf
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Old 09-24-2020, 02:07 PM   #169
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After the weekly brothers' breakfast this morning, one brother made a comment to a few of us I'd never thought about. He said that most women are probably more accepting of homosexuality, because they've not been in a position where they have felt that threatened by it. On the other hand, many men have experienced this from other males (sometimes in an aggressive way). Therefore men may tend to feel less accepting of homosexuals than women.
I have heard something similar before.

"Some men are homophobic because they are afraid of being treated the way they treat women"
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:12 PM   #170
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So the Guardian says Jesus was gay?

Right. And the National Inquirer says that John the Baptist was a cross-dresser and Martha and Mary were drag queens!
The writer of the Guardian article, "Was Jesus gay? Probably", Paul Oestreicher, is an Anglican priest.
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Old 09-24-2020, 05:05 PM   #171
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From the article:

"Heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual: Jesus could have been any of these. There can be no certainty which. The homosexual option simply seems the most likely. The intimate relationship with the beloved disciple points in that direction. It would be so interpreted in any person today. Although there is no rabbinic tradition of celibacy, Jesus could well have chosen to refrain from sexual activity, whether he was gay or not. Many Christians will wish to assume it, but I see no theological need to. The physical expression of faithful love is godly. To suggest otherwise is to buy into a kind of puritanism that has long tainted the churches."

I think it's pretty understood that Jesus never married. To suggest that theologically it would have been fine for an unmarried, unblemished, sinless, spotless Son of God to have been involved in sexual activity (gay or straight regardless) outside of marriage is utter absurdity. All of us are eternally dead in our sins if this is the case, because then Jesus would have been a sinner and could never have been acceptable as the one who could lay His life down as a sacrifice for any of us.

I'm speechless that what seem to be professing Christians (zeek excluded, IIRC) on this thread are waving that article as anything remotely credible to point to. Do you even understand the implications of some of the things you are trying to pass off?!
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Old 09-24-2020, 06:08 PM   #172
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I think it's pretty understood that Jesus never married. To suggest that theologically it would have been fine for an unmarried, unblemished, sinless, spotless Son of God to have been involved in sexual activity (gay or straight regardless) outside of marriage is utter absurdity. All of us are eternally dead in our sins if this is the case, because then Jesus would have been a sinner and could never have been acceptable as the one who could lay His life down as a sacrifice for any of us.

I'm speechless that what seem to be professing Christians (zeek excluded, IIRC) on this thread are waving that article anything remotely credible to point to. Do you even understand the implications of some of the things you are trying to pass off?!
What Trapped said . . .
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Old 09-24-2020, 06:50 PM   #173
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I'm speechless that what seem to be professing Christians (zeek excluded, IIRC) on this thread are waving that article as anything remotely credible to point to. Do you even understand the implications of some of the things you are trying to pass off?!
It's like trying to reason with a mob.


Anyone understand what blasphemy looks like?
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:36 PM   #174
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Paul Oestreicher? A well-known commie socialist who wears a crucifix. Yeah, that's where we should get our theology and biblical history from!


Oestreicher with his two heros Marx and Engels

So what other kooks do you want to dig up that claim Jesus was a homo? Keep at it guys. This is fun!
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:44 PM   #175
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It's like trying to reason with a mob.
I typically feel sorry for the underdog.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O
Anyone understand what blasphemy looks like?
No. Tell me.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:08 PM   #176
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I'll sit at a roundtable and grapple sincerely with "Is God gay?" and "Was Jesus homosexual" but there has to be a basic level of logic and reason to be able to have a discussion. If claims and statements are made, the logic has to hold up. That's all I'm asking.

The claim has been made earlier in this thread that Jesus could have been a celibate homosexual. As I also mentioned elsewhere, if this is the case, then we also have to look at the implications of that claim and what it means for those with same-sex attractions now. In other words, His example is the one to follow. This is why I didn't understand what there was to gain by throwing Jesus's potential homosexuality around.....because it logically brings us to a place it doesn't seem like you would want to be.

It's also not an assumption that Jesus was heterosexual. It's a reasonable inference. There is a vast difference between the two. For Jesus to be homosexual and yet surround Himself with a group of men makes no sense. That is what someone who was heterosexual and reasonably wanted to remain sinless would do.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:08 PM   #177
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Paul Oestreicher? A well-known commie socialist who wears a crucifix. Yeah, that's where we should get our theology and biblical history from!

Oestreicher with his two heros Marx and Engels

So what other kooks do you want to dig up that claim Jesus was a homo? Keep at it guys. This is fun!
Humperdinck ... you were not supposed to expose things like this.

Didn't you know you were supposed to "cover the bros?"
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:34 PM   #178
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Sure you guys asked for it: for fellow brothers, Humperdink, Ohio, Sons of Glory, Trapped

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vic...-jesus-gay-702

http://religiousinstitute.org/denom_...s-in-the-bibl/

Ruth and Naomi (lesbian or bisexual)
http://wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/bi...uth_naomi.html

Jonathan (gay) and David (bisexual):
http://wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/bi..._jonathan.html
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Old 09-25-2020, 12:00 AM   #179
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Paul Oestreicher? A well-known commie socialist who wears a crucifix. Yeah, that's where we should get our theology and biblical history from
This is an ad hominem fallacy argument for dismissing the contents of his reasonings based on his character/personality
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Old 09-25-2020, 03:35 AM   #180
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This is an ad hominem fallacy argument for dismissing the contents of his reasonings based on his character/personality
Not totally. When his reasonings are related to a character issue, his own character does become relevant. It’s one thing to look at the character of a person trying to reason a math proof or something. But it’s another to look at the character of the person claiming a fornicating-outside-of-marriage Jesus (a character issue) is theologically no big deal. The character of a person arguing a character point provides a framework for the basis of his viewpoint.
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Old 09-25-2020, 04:34 AM   #181
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Sure you guys asked for it: for fellow brothers, Humperdink, Ohio, Sons of Glory, Trapped

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vic...-jesus-gay-702

http://religiousinstitute.org/denom_...s-in-the-bibl/

Ruth and Naomi (lesbian or bisexual)
http://wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/bi...uth_naomi.html

Jonathan (gay) and David (bisexual):
http://wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/bi..._jonathan.html
In today's vernacular these are all fake websites. O the website is real, but the info is fake, unreliable, speculative, not fact-based, and purely conjecture.

A little surprising coming from "Love Matters."
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:40 AM   #182
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As usual, man is trying to change God into our image: that of fallen, sinful, confused man. I am unsubscribing from this thread as it is more & more offensive to me. If anyone wants to communicated with me, they know where (PM). But I will not entertain outright blasphemy - there is a spirit behind it, and it's not of Him.

May the Lord be with you all!
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:57 AM   #183
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Paul Oestreicher? A well-known commie socialist who wears a crucifix. Yeah, that's where we should get our theology and biblical history from
Quote:
This is an ad hominem fallacy argument for dismissing the contents of his reasonings based on his character/personality
That's right. Humperdinck's argument is an ad hominem fallacy dismissing Oestreicher's argument based nothing more than questionable inferences Humperdinck makes about Oestreicher from a single photo.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:38 AM   #184
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I typically feel sorry for the underdog.


No. Tell me.
I find it ironic when people start to think it's blasphemy when greeted with views that reveal there are gay people in the bible. Jesus was crucified for "blasphemy". good riddance because that is how pharisees think.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:16 AM   #185
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I typically feel sorry for the under dog.
Where is zeek et. al. coming out to defend me for awareness' vicious ad hominem insult calling me a dog?

Talk about double standards, yet without them, some folks around here would have none at all.

Where's that "my feelings are so hurt" emoji?
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:16 AM   #186
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

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Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
I find it ironic when people start to think it's blasphemy when greeted with views that reveal there are gay people in the bible. Jesus was crucified for "blasphemy". good riddance because that is how pharisees think.
No one is saying there aren't gay people in the Bible. Paul speaks of this in one of his letters, saying "this is what some of you were". There they are in Scripture, right there.

What we are saying, which so far no one has actually addressed other than weak ad hominem claims that don't apply, is that arguments and logic starts crumbling if you try to claim Jesus was gay. We can reasonably infer He wasn't, and if He was, His celibate example doesn't bode well for homosexuals who want to engage in homosexual activity. In two directions that argument fails.

Blasphemy, by the way, is only blasphemy in relation to the truth of the issue. Just as calling a murderer "a murderer" is not slander because it's true, so are Jesus' claims to divinity not blasphemy, because they are true. If you or I made claims to divine origins, that's a problem because it's not true. But if Jesus does, no problem, because it's true. The Pharisees didn't like the truth, and they called that truth blasphemy.

Likewise, for all the logical and rational reasons and arguments I've stated here, it is similarly blasphemy to make the false statements about Jesus and God that are being thrown around here, that I've repeatedly shown to hold no water.

Let me ask anyone reading a question: If living a homosexual lifestyle (I'm not talking about having the feelings, but continually acting on them) was indeed shown to be a sin, would you continue to live according to your same-sex attractions? In other words, if God Himself undeniably visited you and told you without question that acting on the attractions was immoral, would you cease?

This is a simple hypothetical question, and I'm curious how you would answer.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:26 AM   #187
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

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That's right. Humperdinck's argument is an ad hominem fallacy dismissing Oestreicher's argument based nothing more than questionable inferences Humperdinck makes about Oestreicher from a single photo.
I'll make a deal with you zeek, you don't try to bolster your argument by referencing somebody's supposed credentials (Anglican priest) and I won't bother to point out that your "proof" is coming from a fraud. If you don't want me to be shootin your fish in that barrel, don't bring out that barrel full of fish and shove it in my face. Deal partner?
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:28 AM   #188
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
As usual, man is trying to change God into our image: that of fallen, sinful, confused man. I am unsubscribing from this thread as it is more & more offensive to me. If anyone wants to communicated with me, they know where (PM). But I will not entertain outright blasphemy - there is a spirit behind it, and it's not of Him.

May the Lord be with you all!
I am seriously taking STG's advisement under consideration. This thread has transitioned from a discussion about transgender damages to our society as a whole to an orchestrated and blasphemous assault on the character of the holy Lamb of God, my Savior Jesus Christ.

I didn't want to leave this thread without saying why. If I had any say in the matter, I would shut down the Alt-Views to all such blasphemy about the holy virtue and character of Jesus Christ.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:29 AM   #189
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Default Re: LGBTQ, in LC and Beyond.

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Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
I find it ironic when people start to think it's blasphemy when greeted with views that reveal there are gay people in the bible. Jesus was crucified for "blasphemy". good riddance because that is how pharisees think.
It's an emotional heart thing for SoG and Ohio. They have ideals of purity coming down from tradition about Jesus and the Bible.

I think it's caused by seeing only the divine side of the Bible and not the human side of the Bible ; producing such divine idealism that they completely miss the fact the the every book of the Bible were written by human hands, thinking rather, that it was written by God's hands ... like God actually has hands.

I think it boils down to ignorance of the formations of the Bible, and its compilation. An ignorance that's likely going to stick with them until the grave, unfortunately. Cuz, they're very happy in their ignorance, and will likely proudly tell you so.
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