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Old 11-18-2013, 11:35 AM   #1
Truth
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Default My Views and Stance on The Recovery

Hi All,

I've been around this forum for awhile, but never made any formal introductions. So here I go. I won't be able to talk about my history and my views all in one sitting, so it will take a few rounds.

First of all, I want to stay anonymous for reasons that will be apparent later. Unfortunately, this means my story will not be as detailed as I would like it to be. However my purpose in writing is not to tell you my history (that is just to provide some background), it is to tell you all currently where I stand with regards to the "The Lord's Recovery" (which you may or may not agree with).

I was born in the far East to parents who were already in the church life. I won't even tell you whether I am a brother or a sister. It will help readers to be more neutral when reading my story and thoughts about The Recovery. Our family moved to the mid-west area when I was still quite young. So for all of my childhood up until I attended the FTTA, I grew up under the ministry of Titus Chu and the mid-west full-time leading brothers. I was positive and absolute towards both LSM and Titus. When I graduated from the training, I served full-time a few years before going back to work. I did not experience the heat of the turmoil in the Great Lakes area, because at the time I had already moved away. However, I had close friends who were in it. Not too long ago, I stumbled onto this forum and read some of the scandal involving Witness Lee, and recently Watchman Nee. I was horrified and sad, but not surprised. This answered my long-time question as why the Recovery has been fruitless for so many years, even though our old members always raved about how wonderful the church life was in the 60's and 70's.

Today, I am still a member of the local churches, even though I disagree with The Recovery system and some of the teachings of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. I am not a rank-and-file member deeply involved with the activities of LSM, however I am moderately involved with activities in my locality. I love the brothers and sisters here even though some of them have been in the church life for over 20 years. As Lee said of the Catholic Church, I will say of Lee's own church "we love the people but not the system". I love the saints in the recovery, but I hate the system. This has been a great struggle to me recently. For now, I am staying here because the Lord hasn't yet led me to go anywhere else. I enjoy the fellowship with the saints here. However, I will only speak from the Bible and Lee/Nee's ministry only if I find it beneficial. I refuse to be a parrot, repeating senseless words of a man whom many believe to be the minister of the age. I don't see the Recovery as the only true church. I don't see Nee and Lee as the Minister of the Age. However, I do see the LSM churches as one of the many churches out there in Christianity with many problems. In fact, I think The Recovery going down that route. They have taken many actions to be accepted by mainstream Christianity. I also regard Nee and Lee as one of the *many* preachers out there with their own set of problems. No church is perfect and no minister is perfect. I am not making excuse for anyone, but I don't believe the talk about this church being evil and that we need to leave it. If one day the Lord leads me to leave and join another group, I will without questions.

For now, I am content here by the Lord's mercy and arrangement. Because what I believe in a kind of middle ground (ie. I am not for LSM churches, neither am I against it), I face all kinds of challenges. But the Lord has been merciful to supply me with His strength. I will end here for now. Feel free to ask questions, confirm and agree, or disagree and debate. After all, that is what this forum is for.
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:01 PM   #2
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As Lee said of the Catholic Church, I will say of Lee's own church "we love the people but not the system". I love the saints in the recovery, but I hate the system. This has been a great struggle to me recently. For now, I am staying here because the Lord hasn't yet led me to go anywhere else. I enjoy the fellowship with the saints here. However, I will only speak from the Bible and Lee/Nee's ministry only if I find it beneficial. I refuse to be a parrot, repeating senseless words of a man whom many believe to be the minister of the age.
Amen! I can relate to what you're saying. The local churches was the enviornment I was raised in. Until college I didn't even know any Christians outside the local church system. I love all the brothers and sisters. Even those I disagree with.
In regard to the ministry, in particular the HWFMR, there was very little beneficial to daily living. The Bible on the other hand, there are many chapters and passages that carries into my daily life.
The writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to some degree I liked, but in LSM/LC practices, I did not see their ministry being exhibited.
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Old 11-18-2013, 01:28 PM   #3
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The writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee to some degree I liked, but in LSM/LC practices, I did not see their ministry being exhibited.
It is unfortunately that they don't practice that they preach. One of my favorite books was The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life. It is too bad that book has been completed skipped over in their practice. Whenever this book is cited, it is mentioned in hypocrisy. They say their churches are based on Christ alone, but it is actually based on Nee's and Lee's ministry. This is just one of the many untruthful practices.
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:53 AM   #4
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It is unfortunately that they don't practice that they preach. One of my favorite books was The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life. It is too bad that book has been completed skipped over in their practice. Whenever this book is cited, it is mentioned in hypocrisy. They say their churches are based on Christ alone, but it is actually based on Nee's and Lee's ministry. This is just one of the many untruthful practices.
Teachings by Lee in the book The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life was simply a ruse to disarm us and entrap us in the program. Messages were given in 1971, long before Stream Publishers became LSM, and began dominating all the LC's. You are right about the hypocrisy surrounding this book, as it exposes the "bait and switch" policies which so characterize LSM.
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Old 11-19-2013, 03:05 AM   #5
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As Lee said of the Catholic Church, I will say of Lee's own church "we love the people but not the system". I love the saints in the recovery, but I hate the system. This has been a great struggle to me recently.
It is a great struggle, which found to be an impossibility.

One day I began to think of the ramifications of "love the people but not the system." What did this really mean in practice? Since I had been taught to judge all things Christian with respect to the greater body of Christ, commonly referred to as "Christianity," it was well nigh impossible to separate the Christian from the "system."

Eventually I came to realize that this would be something like me saying "I love my wife, but ... I hate the way she thinks, the things she loves, the way she talks, the way she dresses, the way she cooks, the way she decorates, etc. etc."

At that point it sounded pretty stupid to me. It is better to practice the time-honored saying of "love the sinner, but hate the sin."
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:13 AM   #6
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It is a great struggle, which found to be an impossibility.

One day I began to think of the ramifications of "love the people but not the system." What did this really mean in practice? Since I had been taught to judge all things Christian with respect to the greater body of Christ, commonly referred to as "Christianity," it was well nigh impossible to separate the Christian from the "system."

Eventually I came to realize that this would be something like me saying "I love my wife, but ... I hate the way she thinks, the things she loves, the way she talks, the way she dresses, the way she cooks, the way she decorates, etc. etc."

At that point it sounded pretty stupid to me. It is better to practice the time-honored saying of "love the sinner, but hate the sin."
I would argue that we are in a constant struggle between the desire and command to love our neighbor and hate the sin that not only captures them, but sometimes hangs on with us. In a very real way, there is a need to love the sinner while hating the sin. And to the extent that there is something truly wrong with some belief, sect, etc., we surely are in the same kind of position.

(This is not pointed at anyone in particular. I think I point it at myself as much as anyone. I continue to find myself rating things in my assembly of choice according to a yardstick created in the fires of spiritual error by Lee and Nee.)

But Lee didn't really ask us to love the sinner and hate sin. He was asking and teaching us to hate every position that was in any way different from those he taught — in effect calling it all sin — and then suggesting that we love those caught in that "sin." It creates a rift because we are not dealing with them as believers on equal footing in grace, but as sinners hanging on by a thread of grace that we only barely acknowledge (and they only barely have).

Therein is the problem. The "Speciality" part of the book redefines the core of the faith to include the doctrine of dirt. It has added to the revelation and created something impure. But like the words from "Late Lament," impure becomes pure, and assemblies of the larger church universal are denigrated to be daughters of a whore.

I know I sound like a broken record on this, but until we see the mainstream of Christianity as the norm (and the proper norm at that) and the LRC as the anomaly that needs a serious course correction, we are still caught in its error. As long as we continue to view Christianity, even to a lesser degree, as the problem that Lee taught us to think of it as, we are mired in the pigpen of LRC-think. We may despise the LSM and the BBs for their unrighteousness related to Daystar, PL, John I, Bill M, etc., but we are ready purchasers of the doctrinal filth that they sell like magic elixirs from the days of the travelling salesmen.

If there is an assembly that approaches the true label of "Babylon the Great" or even one of her daughters (and I do not say that any actually do), it is not the Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Church of Christ, charismatics, etc. . . . It is the LRC. They more than any other exemplify the position of proud yet bankrupt. All of the discussions of the problems with their young show it to be true. It would appear that their problem rates among the young are not just on par with other Christian groups. It is worse. They create extremes — either foam-at-the-mouth zealots or failures. It would be easy to blame each set of parents. But there is a common denominator in it and it isn't the people. It is the system they have hitched their wagon to. It rides a fine line between thoughts of superiority and of despair. There is no "normal Christian life." It is very abnormal.
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Old 11-19-2013, 05:42 AM   #7
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...until we see the mainstream of Christianity as the norm (and the proper norm at that) and the LRC as the anomaly that needs a serious course correction, we are still caught in its error. As long as we continue to view Christianity, even to a lesser degree, as the problem that Lee taught us to think of it as, we are mired in the pigpen of LRC-think...

If there is an assembly that approaches the true label of "Babylon the Great" or even one of her daughters (and I do not say that any actually do), it is not the Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Church of Christ, charismatics, etc. . . . It is the LRC. They more than any other exemplify the position of proud yet bankrupt. ...there is a common denominator in it and it isn't the people. It is the system they have hitched their wagon to. It rides a fine line between thoughts of superiority and of despair. There is no "normal Christian life." It is very abnormal.
To this I'd add the comments of Jesus, to "love those who don't love you in return." He said, "If you only bless those who bless you, where then is your reward?" In this I find Christianity to be quite normal, because it is full of people who are caught in all sorts of error! And so, dear readers, am I! This is not to say, "Let us sin that grace may abound" -- no. But I acknowledge my many failures and lacks before God, remember that Jesus died to save sinners, of whom I am foremost, and know that these "degraded" assemblies around me, full of error-saturated and superstitious believers, contain all sorts of opportunities for me to practice mercy. Because Jesus clearly taught that if you show mercy to others, then God will show mercy to you! So what an opportunity, here, for me to obtain God's mercy!

Why search in vain for "the proper ground" when there are sinners all around you, some of whom go to church? Stop despising them according to your man-made doctrines and humble yourself and join in the great parade of God's salvation in Jesus Christ. It took me years, post LRC, to rid myself of the "I'm better than you through my superior teachings" attitude, carefully disguised in Lee's terminology (think, 'reality', etc). The reality is that God loved us and sent His Son while we were yet sinners. Shouldn't this same sending reverberate in love through us toward all those around, not merely toward those whom we deem 'proper'? Why place arbitrary burdens on others which we know they cannot keep, thus excusing ourselves for our lack of charity?
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:26 AM   #8
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I love the saints in the recovery, but I hate the system. This has been a great struggle to me recently.
Let me clarify - the "great struggle" here is not that I have difficulties loving the saints even though I hate the system. I am able to draw the line between the two well enough. I participate in events among the saints in my locality as long as it is not a LSM held activity. For example, I will never go to one of the 7 feasts. Another example, I use the verses in the the HWMR, but not always the ministry writing in it (unless it helps). I try my best to speak from the Word, not from the ministry, etc... You get the point. This has never been a problem for me. In fact when I do this among the new members (who are already believers from another denomination), it feels even more natural.

The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system. I know that the moment I criticize, I am gone. Even if I leave, I would like to leave graciously, and not harbor bad feelings. I may share some of my feelings to those I am close with eventually. Why speak out when everyone will misunderstand you. Speak to those who will listen. Some of you may not agree with this. I would do the same at work. In fact, I just left a job for the same reasons. There were too many concerns, but I didn't want to make too much noise or cause misunderstanding, so I left quietly and thanked everyone for their support over the years.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:46 AM   #9
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Let me clarify - the "great struggle" here is not that I have difficulties loving the saints event though I hate the system. I am able to draw the line between the two well enough. I participate in events among the saints in my locality as long as it is not a LSM held activity. For example, I will never go to one of the 7 feasts. Another example, I use the verses in the the HWMR, but not always the ministry writing in it (unless it helps). I try my best to speak from the Word, not from the ministry, etc... You get the point. This has never been a problem for me. In fact when I do this among the new members (who are already believers from another denomination), it feels even more natural.

The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system. I know that the moment I criticize, I am gone. Even if I leave, I would like to leave graciously, and not harbor bad feelings.
I will start off by saying, I love the brothers and sisters in the local churches, but disagree with the non-scriptural practices the system endorses. Many brothers and sisters I know, many of whom I have known since the 70's, I am more familiar with than my own relatives.
Yes, it is a struggle to speak out against the system, you will be shown the door. For example in 1993 when I moved to Bellevue, Washington from Southern Cal. As soon as I heard the term "rebellious ones", within me there was a resonation there was no such rebellion. It was a farce to retain partiality. Had I objected and expressed my sense from within, I would have been asked to leave without question. The brothers can't handle the concept the ministry can err on any point.
If there's anything I harbor it's disgust of the hypocrisy. So-called quarantines. Calling facts-lies and passing lies as facts (see Isaiah 5:20).
I can understand what you're saying about HWFMR. There is value in the verses. Many times I have not seen value in the ministry unless it translates to daily life application.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:50 AM   #10
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The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system.
Now that would be a great struggle.

I am generally hard-pressed to keep my mouth shut when I see things going wrong. Even if I managed to bite my tongue, it would be obvious that I was biting my tongue.

It's a good thing I don't have that struggle.
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Old 11-19-2013, 12:53 PM   #11
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Let me clarify - the "great struggle" here is not that I have difficulties loving the saints event though I hate the system. I am able to draw the line between the two well enough. I participate in events among the saints in my locality as long as it is not a LSM held activity. For example, I will never go to one of the 7 feasts. Another example, I use the verses in the the HWMR, but not always the ministry writing in it (unless it helps). I try my best to speak from the Word, not from the ministry, etc... You get the point. This has never been a problem for me. In fact when I do this among the new members (who are already believers from another denomination), it feels even more natural.

The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system. I know that the moment I criticize, I am gone. Even if I leave, I would like to leave graciously, and not harbor bad feelings. I may share some of my feelings to those I am close with eventually. Why speak out when everyone will misunderstand you. Speak to those who will listen. Some of you may not agree with this. I would do the same at work. In fact, I just left a job for the same reasons. There were too many concerns, but I didn't want to make too much noise or cause misunderstanding, so I left quietly and thanked everyone for their support over the years.
May our Precious Heavenly Father bless you abundantly Truth because you are a LIGHT shining in that dark place. You are a drink of Fresh, Living Water to the people there. You are there to remind them Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. You are pointing them to Christ. You are reading scriptures (verses) and it is the scriptures that give LIFE.

You are nursing the sick back to health. You may not nurse all of them but you are nursing those GOD has given you charge of. :-)

Pointing out the warts and blemishes they have will not give them hope to get well. Many (starting from the top) have already embraced their warts and blemishes as normal. They are like lepers hanging out together because they don't fit in anywhere else.

But Jesus did not run away from the lepers. He healed them with His Love and with His Word. The LORD has placed a hedge of protection around you so you can minister to them. Who will minister to them if people like yourself don't? You are being used mightily by Almighty God [El -SHADDAI]. Your reward awaits you and it will be great !

Should the time come when the Spirit of GOD releases you from your ministry to the people of God who are stuck in the LSM, you will know and HIS PEACE will envelop you guarding your heart and mind in Christ Jesus leading you to another pasture of sheep to take care of.

Several years ago I heard many Mormons were truly being saved and delivered from Mormonism. Yet some chose to remain within its' walls in order to reach those who were truly hungry for Life, Love and Truth but were afraid to leave their compound.

Once upon a time, the LC was a Light unto the world. The bible was our guide. The LORD JESUS was our Savior, Our Redeemer, our King of Kings, our Lord of lords, Our Life, Our Light, Our Fortress, our High Tower, our Strength in Whom we Trusted, until the people of the LC took their eyes off of HIM and fixed their eyes on Lee in particular.

Yet in spite of their warts and blemishes God still used Nee & Lee to gather HIS saints together.

We were ALL there and we loved it for a season.

I don't know what the 7 feasts of the LSM are but the 7 Feasts of the LORD are listed in Leviticus 23. They are
1) Passover,

2) the Feast of Unleavened Bread,

3) the Feast of FirstFruits,

4) the Feast of weeks (50 days after the 7th Sabbath) [Pentecost]

5) The Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Ha Shannah)

6) The Feast of Atonement (Yom Kippur)

7) The Feast of Tabernacles.

The first four feasts have been fullfilled. Jesus is our 1) Passover Lamb, 2) He was in the grave during the Feast of Unleavened bread, 3) He resurrected on the Feast of FirstFruits. and 4) The church (not the LSM mind you) was born on Pentecost 50 days after His Resurrection.


Many believers who are looking for the LORD JESUS to return for His Bride, (the BLOOD WASHED believers) think He may come on The Feast of Trumpets for 1 Thessalonians says He will descend with a Shout, the Voice of the Archangel and with the TRUMPET of God. The dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the air to meet JESUS in the clouds. I used to think this too [but now Me personally, thinks whatever day or night we hear the SHOUT, the VOICE of the ARCHANGEL and the TRUMPET of GOD will be the real Feast of Trumpets.]

The Feast of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacles are for the Jews who have rejected Christ Jesus as their Messiah but will be saved by the Blood during the 7 yr Tribulation.

Anyway...I am sure the LSM has distorted the 7 Feasts of the LORD spoken of in Leviticus 23.

So carry on TRUTH. Don't ease up wearing the Full Armor of God. Keep the Helmet of Salvation on at all times for it protects your/our thoughts. The Breastplate of Righteousness protects our heart. The Shield we carry is our Faith in Christ Jesus, the Sword of the Spirit is the WORD of God & the Blood of the Lamb we fight the enemy with (Satan & his minions: the principalities & powers of the air, the rulers of the darkness of this world, and the spiritual wickedness in High Places. We are not warring against flesh and blood.

Oh...the belt around our waist is the Word of TRUTH and our feet wear shoes prepared for the gospel of Peace.

Thanks for sharing !

Shalom in Yeshua the Messiah. He is coming soon!

Carol g
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Old 11-20-2013, 09:12 AM   #12
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Thank you for the kind encouragement, Countmeworthy. Positive posts like yours in this forum is much needed.

I don't really see myself as a shining light in a dark place. Spiritually, I struggle as everyone else. I guess the main difference is that I don't think The Recovery system is biblical, where most of the members may believe otherwise. However this belief is not core to us being Christians. What makes us brothers and sisters is that we believe the Son of God has come to die for us sins that we might have His eternal life. All other beliefs are non-essential. I'm not saying that they are not important, but they don't determine whether we are Christians. They shouldn't divide us. Whether we believe that Nee/Lee is the Minister of the Age or not is not an essential item of the faith. I just don't make that an issue in my day-to-day walk with the Lord and in my fellowship with the saints. I don't believe that Lee is the MOTA but I can still fellowship with those who do believe because this is not "The faith".
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Old 11-20-2013, 10:53 AM   #13
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Thank you for the kind encouragement, Countmeworthy. Positive posts like yours in this forum is much needed.
Your welcome Truth and thank You for your kind words. I really do try to encourage and 'build up' the saints in God's Love and God's Word -Jesus by His Spirit. Not just on this forum but in my every day business. I can't wait until my mind is totally renewed so that the Mind of Christ is manifested in me and I can hardly wait to get my new and perfected Glorious body. Oh. Come Quickly Lord Jesus! The Spirit and the Bride say "Come".


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I don't really see myself as a shining light in a dark place. Spiritually, I struggle as everyone else.
First of all GOD sees YOU as a shining light in the LSM. (don't know if it was appropae for me to call it a dark place. I know there are lots of candles shining brightly in that system as there are in all denominations including the RCC.)

2ndly what makes us shine is not our perfection because none of us are! What makes us shine is the LIGHT of Christ reflecting out from us. As long as we are doing the Will of our Heavenly Father and His Word, as long as we are humbled by the Word Living and operating in us, as long as we acknowledge the power of the Cleansing Blood of the Lamb and are forever grateful, then we are a Light to the world and that includes the people in the LSM.

The more you speak of our Great Redeemer and Savior, Lord and King and all He is doing in us, through us and for us, people in the LSM will gravitate to the LIGHT shining and reflecting out from you. That Light is JESUS CHRIST of course. We are simply God's vessels and His ambassadors representing HIM.

Do you know why I and most of us that are washed in the Blood of the Lamb know the power of the Blood of Jesus? It is because we have fallen flat on our faces. Speaking for myself, when I have stumbled and fallen, the Holy Spirit reminds me and convicts me of my sin. After years and years of abiding in Christ, it doesn't take any time for me to repent and cleanse myself in the Precious Blood with a grateful heart. After that, I just move on and don't look back. I ask the Lord of course to help me not to repeat the same sin, but rather "RENEW MY MIND, Lord Jesus! Please! And Quickly too!"

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I guess the main difference is that I don't think The Recovery system is biblical, where most of the members may believe otherwise.
Yeah. What I don't get is ...what happened to the 'indepth' study of the 7 churches of Revelation? How quickly they forgot the warnings! All 7 are the church going through different stages. All but 2 were rebuked. The churches that weren't rebuked are Smyrna (the suffering church) and Philadelphia. We all have to be careful we don't lose our first Love, (Ephesus) that we don't put idols before our God (Pergamos), that we don't tolerate Jezebel (Thyatira-the spirit of control & manipulation) who called herself a prophetess yet seduced her servants to commit fornication. We must be careful we don't become a Sardis that thinks it's alive but is actually spiritually dead. And last but not least, how we must be careful not to become lukewarm, neither hot or cold for our Lord as the church in Laodicia became.

You know what I love about the Lord's Words to Philadelphia that should be an encouragement to us all? He told her: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My Word, and hast not denied My Name...Because thou hast kept the Word of My Patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of tribulation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So you see Truth, that is what you are doing! You may have a little strength but you are keeping God's WORD and not denying the Name of Jesus. You are elevating Him above every name...above the name of Nee and Lee. And you are reminding the saints in the LSM that have ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying to the churches to fix their hearts on Jesus for one day and very soon I might add, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus Christ is LORD. KING of kings and LORD of lords.

Excellent Job Truth !! You keep ministering the Pure Word of God with Christ's Love, Patience and Compassion as His Spirit leads you. Your reward is great! And if the time comes He leads you out of the LSM, you will have the Peace of God which surpasses all understanding to leave.

Shalom and Blessings,
Carol G
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:27 PM   #14
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...I participate in events among the saints in my locality as long as it is not a LSM held activity...The "great struggle" is that I cannot speak out against the system. I know that the moment I criticize, I am gone. Even if I leave, I would like to leave graciously, and not harbor bad feelings. I may share some of my feelings to those I am close with eventually. Why speak out when everyone will misunderstand you. Speak to those who will listen.
IMHO this is a good attitude to have and indicates you know how the LC system works. It seems you have friends there and enjoy their company and fellowship. Unfortunately many will not be your friends anymore if you speak out against the downside of the system they embrace. You will be branded a leper and warned against.

Like all churches the LC system has plus and minuses. If you are comfortable there and can effectively navigate your way around the minuses why expend the time and energy it takes to find another imperfect church to get involved in? Of course at some point in time the minuses may so outweigh the pluses that in good conscience you may have to leave. But you can cross that bridge if and when you come to it.
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Old 11-22-2013, 07:25 PM   #15
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That's a great perspective to have. That's how I felt when I was there and would have kept going with that cautious attitude should I have remained.

Truth be told, while I had a re-awakening of sorts with the "church life" towards the end of my time there, the whole "loving everyone" thing while they were so openly arrogant, snobbish and elitist even towards their fellow members as getting VERY old.

I would have remained with them barring the Lord directing me to leave...but I see getting excommunicated as a gift.
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Old 11-23-2013, 08:11 AM   #16
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I see getting excommunicated as a gift.
Me too ...
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Old 11-23-2013, 10:08 AM   #17
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That's a great perspective to have. That's how I felt when I was there and would have kept going with that cautious attitude should I have remained.

Truth be told, while I had a re-awakening of sorts with the "church life" towards the end of my time there, the whole "loving everyone" thing while they were so openly arrogant, snobbish and elitist even towards their fellow members as getting VERY old.

I would have remained with them barring the Lord directing me to leave...but I see getting excommunicated as a gift.
I had many friends in the LC's, yet I also watched many depart over the years due to abuses by leaders taking the place of true shepherding care. I kept holding out thinking that improvement was just around the corner, only to be disappointed once again by false promises. Let me give you an example from 2004.

One day a full-timer Vern Yoder from the Chicago area visited us with his family on the Lord's day. He testified how much he had always loved our city, and was thinking about relocating here. Who's not going to be happy to hear that? Next time he came, he testified how the Lord was leading him to move here. Great! How can I help?

Then, soon afterwards, one Lord's Day morning Paul Neider from Cleveland visited us. During the prayer time before the meeting, he never indicated why he was here. Since I'm not a suspicious person, I thought nothing of it. All of a sudden after we broke bread, Paul announces that Titus Chu sent him to ask us to "labor with brother Vern." Now I'm not the brightest guy around, but even I know what these "coded" words mean -- Titus Chu just sent Vern Yoder to town, who is now in charge, and even the existing elders must submit to him. Soon after I learned that close to ten full-times families were leaving Chicago since their leaders Barker and Reetske just decided to side with LSM. Ten other churches perhaps just got "screwed" like us.

Once I learned about ole Vern's true colors, I knew it was time to depart. He brought sweeping changes to our little church, caring nothing about the needs or wants of the sheep. One time I addressed this with him, and he forcefully responded, "sometimes we need to shock the saints." Spoken like a true Titus-wannabe. One time I caught him lying in the meeting, and I challenged him on it, yet the elders said not a word.

I was gone but most of my friends stayed in the LC. The battles between Anaheim and Cleveland took center stage in all the meetings. The elders had to make sure the local LSM-faithful could not win a lawsuit and get the meeting hall. Six months after I left one of my best friends took his life. He was "assigned" to Vern's small group. He was in the LC close to 20 years. He walked to the cemetery and shot himself.
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:51 PM   #18
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I had many friends in the LC's, yet I also watched many depart over the years due to abuses by leaders taking the place of true shepherding care. I kept holding out thinking that improvement was just around the corner, only to be disappointed once again by false promises. Let me give you an example from 2004.


Once I learned about ole Vern's true colors, I knew it was time to depart. One time I caught him lying in the meeting, and I challenged him on it, yet the elders said not a word.

I was gone but most of my friends stayed in the LC. The battles between Anaheim and Cleveland took center stage in all the meetings. The elders had to make sure the local LSM-faithful could not win a lawsuit and get the meeting hall. Six months after I left one of my best friends took his life. He was "assigned" to Vern's small group. He was in the LC close to 20 years. He walked to the cemetery and shot himself.

God will avenge and God will judge. We all know Judgement comes first to the house of God beginning with the leaders, the 'shepherds' and the shepherds. May it come soon. For now, how heartwrenching to hear of yet another disillusioned believer lose all hope for living and take his life. I have heard of many men/women and even young men/women in the LRC take their lives. How the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit must grieve.

Blessings all..may we never give up Hope, Faith and Love.

Carol G
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Old 11-25-2013, 10:04 AM   #19
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Six months after I left one of my best friends took his life. He was "assigned" to Vern's small group. He was in the LC close to 20 years. He walked to the cemetery and shot himself.
Wow.

Ohio, could you say more about this? Was the suicide related to the battles within the LC's?

In my former locality, there was also a suicide. This man had real psychological problems, and I don't think it's fair to blame the church for what he decided to do. But what I did notice was how the church swept the suicide under the rug. The next "leading brothers" meeting I went to, a few days later, he wasn't even talked about.

There's no way of knowing, but I did have the thought back then, "Maybe if this poor brother had been in a different church, he could have received more help." As it was, I doubt that he was ever encouraged to see a professional psychiatrist, or receive counseling (I don't know for sure). But our way of handling these kinds of problems was usually to think that increased spirituality was the answer.

I have read about other cases of suicides in the LC (I think Jane's book mentions at least one). Is this some kind of pattern? It's terrible to think about, but it should be addressed if this sort of thing goes on more often than we realized.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:34 AM   #20
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In my former locality, there was also a suicide. This man had real psychological problems, and I don't think it's fair to blame the church for what he decided to do. But what I did notice was how the church swept the suicide under the rug. The next "leading brothers" meeting I went to, a few days later, he wasn't even talked about.

There's no way of knowing, but I did have the thought back then, "Maybe if this poor brother had been in a different church, he could have received more help." As it was, I doubt that he was ever encouraged to see a professional psychiatrist, or receive counseling (I don't know for sure). But our way of handling these kinds of problems was usually to think that increased spirituality was the answer.

I have read about other cases of suicides in the LC (I think Jane's book mentions at least one). Is this some kind of pattern? It's terrible to think about, but it should be addressed if this sort of thing goes on more often than we realized.
Suicides is an extreme example. More common is the mental issues brothers and sisters are sometimes impacted by. Having the system of the recovery being a "cookie-cutter" system, how one recieves real care is determined if they fit into the cookie cutter mold (having the vision of the ministry). Some brothers and sisters try to fit into the cookie cutter mold just to feel accepted. Also there's the characteristic of the recovery system emphasizing the spirit and denigrating the humanity in the believer's soul.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:44 AM   #21
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Wow.

Ohio, could you say more about this? Was the suicide related to the battles within the LC's?

In my former locality, there was also a suicide. This man had real psychological problems, and I don't think it's fair to blame the church for what he decided to do. But what I did notice was how the church swept the suicide under the rug. The next "leading brothers" meeting I went to, a few days later, he wasn't even talked about.

There's no way of knowing, but I did have the thought back then, "Maybe if this poor brother had been in a different church, he could have received more help." As it was, I doubt that he was ever encouraged to see a professional psychiatrist, or receive counseling (I don't know for sure). But our way of handling these kinds of problems was usually to think that increased spirituality was the answer.

I have read about other cases of suicides in the LC (I think Jane's book mentions at least one). Is this some kind of pattern? It's terrible to think about, but it should be addressed if this sort of thing goes on more often than we realized.
Larry, I can testify that I suffered a kind PTSD from leaving the local church. It wasn't easy. The local church "bent our tree," like a Palm tree that's been bent by a storm, and grows on, bending up to reach the heavens.

Thanks for your thoughts and input Larry.
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:29 PM   #22
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Both my wife and I were born in poverty and thus ate very frugally for all our growing years. My mother was a good cook but when she served something I didn't like I was never compelled to eat it. Several times in my youth I ate peanut butter and crackers for supper and there was nothing said. Likewise with my wife who was also a good cook, when something was made not to my good taste or my kids good taste, we didn't eat it. No offense. But in the LC if food is set before you sometimes for years and it is distasteful or poisonous, there is no recourse. You eat it or get out. What a loving situation.

Lately a distasteful item has arisen which has been with us for forty years, "everything is corporate." It is chanted,sccreamed, continuosly over and over. You should not pray by yourself and anything else by yourself but everything should be corporate. It's part of the control feature of LC,
really nauseating.

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Old 11-25-2013, 12:36 PM   #23
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Wow.

Ohio, could you say more about this? Was the suicide related to the battles within the LC's?
I can't blame it directly on the LC. I frankly don't know what snapped in my friend. He was a great guy, married with children, great sense of humor, extremely generous with his time and money. Nobody saw this coming. He was active in the church for 20 years. After he passed, I heard whispers, "brother Ohio there were things you didn't know."

Months before his demise, his family was assigned to a small group with our new "leader." Vern's new agenda was supposed to bring "intimacy" to the church life. Instead of gathering together to worship the Lord and remember Him, we were busted up into fragments to break bread in an "intimate way," so said our new leader. Never mind that all the saints I talked with wanted to gather together on the Lord's day. But, what did they know? Our new leader knew better. He thought the church needed to be "shocked."

What we really needed was elders who placed the local church above Titus Chu and Cleveland. Was that too much to ask? I didn't think so, but when I spoke up on behalf of the church, Vern Yoder said thrice that this was a "strong accusation!" Why? Because I pointed out that it was a serious conflict of interest to have 3 elders who were all employees of Titus? And the original elder of the church, who had recently moved back to town, was not permitted to serve any more because he quit the work with Titus after years of intense public abuse. But Vern insisted that I apologize for my "accusations," which I did and then decided to part ways amicably.

During this time, the three church elders / employees of Titus were constantly going to Cleveland to "fight the good fight of the faith" against LSM's Blendeds. They needed constant "prayer and fellowship to stand with our brother." Home meetings and church meetings constantly were occupied with quarantine talk. Who has time for "intimate" fellowship and shepherding one another when we are fighting a war. I stated on a few occasions that we as a church should be neutral and not take sides. That went over like a lead balloon. "We have to take a stand for the truth!" Yeah right! Isn't that what LSM is doing too?

Tragically my friend's widow died from cancer just a couple years later. We surely need the Lord's mercy.
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Old 11-25-2013, 12:56 PM   #24
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Lately a distasteful item has arisen which has been with us for forty years, "everything is corporate." It is chanted, screamed, continuously over and over. You should not pray by yourself and anything else by yourself but everything should be corporate. It's part of the control feature of LC,
really nauseating.

Lisbon
Brother Lisbon, you are right to be concerned about this.

The biggest danger to the LSM is our personal walk with the Lord Jesus, and our liberty in the Spirit. Many times while I was there I heard leaders in Anaheim say that we "cannot pick and choose which part of the ministry we want." In other words, if you are with them, you must eat everything they cram down your throat.

Nauseating describes it well.
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:01 PM   #25
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Lately a distasteful item has arisen which has been with us for forty years, "everything is corporate." It is chanted,sccreamed, continuosly over and over. You should not pray by yourself and anything else by yourself but everything should be corporate. It's part of the control feature of LC,
really nauseating. Lisbon
Great post Lisbon.

What if you are bed ridden? And can't come to the fellowship meetings? At first, a few people will gather around the ill individual...reading from the HWMR..maybe playing a tape from the meeting...but after a while, the visitations will taper off. ESPECIALLY if the person was just a mediocre member of the LSM...

One other thing....Someone needs to tell these guys when we stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ..we stand before HIM -- alone. We are not going"corporately" to the Bema Seat.

Following the Judgment of (individual) believers, the next time we are gathered together as a Body (hate the word 'corporately) will be at the marriage ceremony of the Beloved Bride to the Lamb of God. And it ain't gonna be comprised exclusively of the LSM !

May our God have mercy on them...and also on us.

Blessings as always,
Carol g
And yes...their dogma is very nauseating.
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Old 11-25-2013, 01:07 PM   #26
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I have read about other cases of suicides in the LC (I think Jane's book mentions at least one). Is this some kind of pattern? It's terrible to think about, but it should be addressed if this sort of thing goes on more often than we realized.
One thing I am absolutely certain of is this -- no believer is helped by learning how to criticize and condemn the rest of Christianity, the greater body of Christ. Once a LC member is convinced of how hopelessly pathetic Christianity is, how could he ever receive help from outsiders? The ministry of Witness Lee was supposed to be the "all-inclusive dose" to meet our every need. No help was available inside the LC and no help was available outside the LC.
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Old 11-25-2013, 02:53 PM   #27
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No help was available inside the LC and no help was available outside the LC.
This explains the suicide. If a person thinks that there is no help at all available, it is very difficult to continue on living.

Just a note on the side: Things have changed slightly in the Recovery over the years. In the past, psychological illness were seen as a spiritual weakness (ie. calling on the Lord and praying will solve it all). But now the saints are realizing that some of these ones need help from a psychiatrist or psychologist. When I was in the FTTA, some of the trainees WERE in fact encouraged to see their doctor and take medication.

The sad thing is, in some cases the brother/sister doesn't need a doctor or medication. They really just need some personal and practical counseling (both spiritual or non-spiritual). Some others just need a friend...
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Old 11-25-2013, 03:34 PM   #28
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This explains the suicide. If a person thinks that there is no help at all available, it is very difficult to continue on living.
It begins by brainwashing the innocent believers "there is nothing better outside the LC". So when life is not good in the LC...when all the love bombing ends...when the children of the die hard LCrs do not feel the love and security from their parents. When they don't 'fit in' anywhere...the LSM, Christianity, the 'world'..what reason is there for living from their perspective.

I pray for the Lord to have a special place in heaven for those who have taken their lives because they were deceived. They were told Christ is their Savior only to be told in principle -only- if the LSM comes first.

Quote:
In some cases the brother/sister doesn't need a doctor or medication. They really just need some personal and practical counseling (both spiritual or non-spiritual). Some others just need a friend...
True..most probably could simply benefit greatly from a good dose of real LOVE and a true healthy family/friendly lifestyle w/o the LSM crapiola.
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Old 11-25-2013, 03:46 PM   #29
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What if you are bed ridden? And can't come to the fellowship meetings? At first, a few people will gather around the ill individual...reading from the HWMR..maybe playing a tape from the meeting...but after a while, the visitations will taper off. ESPECIALLY if the person was just a mediocre member of the LSM...
I saw a variant on that as my mother's health deteriorated over a period of six months ultimately ending in her death. The sequence of events was understood as inevitable.

But as time went on, I remember my dad mentioning that at least a couple of times one or another of the brothers he had often had Saturday breakfast with asked him in a typically upbeat way "how's is going?" to which my dad could only say something like "other than the fact that my wife id dying, I guess OK." I don't know what he really thought about it, but I suspect that he had at least some realization that being upbeat is just part of the system.

And when we had the funeral, I was fit to be tied. I appreciate that so many did come. But it seemed more about spouting off upbeat memories (that at least in some cases did not compare to reality). It was a sort of zoo. I was there to pay respects to my mother and continue to mourn her death and they were busy being chipper and saying how she was one of the most unopinionated people they had ever known. (I wondered who that person was that they were talking about.)

That was several years back now. But their shallow . . . no . . . hollow effort to deal with anything that is not simply Christ and the church and finding good material as they denigrate everyone else in the name of oneness is just a stick in my craw. I wish that the rest of my family saw it clearly enough to get out. Then I would probably just quit thinking about this system of error that calls itself the "Lord's recovery."

Just the comments surrounding some who committed suicide, or even just had trouble with their marriages. People need more than more meetings and more HWMR. They need real people who share in their sufferings. Who come along side with honest help (which is very different from an exhortation to suck-it-up).

And they may need real help, including some kind of medication.

No matter how positively I think concerning some of the individuals, I'm not sure that a system as bereft of real Christian experiance and belief as they are hitched to can equip them to provide any of the kind of comfort or other help that is needed.

I'm glad I am not relying on them for what I need. (Of course they would say that you just need Christ. That is true. But Christ has real, live arms and legs in the form of other Christians. They would deny those to people in need.)
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Old 11-25-2013, 04:17 PM   #30
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Of course they would say that you just need Christ. That is true. But Christ has real, live arms and legs in the form of other Christians.
When you begin to see this, the scriptures just open up right in front of you. And you begin to look at the person next to you, i.e. your "neighbor" differently.

What happened was I began to no longer look past the person next to me, but I began to look at them. Instead of trying to give them speeches, I began to listen to them. Instead of trying to bring them to a meeting, I began to meet with them, right where they were. Instead of putting expectations on them, of who I thought they should be, I began to accept them for what they were, as God had made them. Instead of judging them for their shortcomings, I saw these as opportunities to be merciful, just as I knew that my shortcomings before God had been forgiven in Christ Jesus.

And so forth. OBW put the idea so well, I just wanted to "amen" his point.
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Old 11-25-2013, 09:09 PM   #31
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Many times while I was there I heard leaders in Anaheim say that we "cannot pick and choose which part of the ministry we want." In other words, if you are with them, you must eat everything they cram down your throat.
In other words they (LSM) will "cherry pick" what they want you to consume.
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:13 AM   #32
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I saw a variant on that as my mother's health deteriorated over a period of six months ultimately ending in her death. The sequence of events was understood as inevitable.

as time went on, I remember my dad mentioning that at least a couple of times one or another of the brothers he had often had Saturday breakfast with asked him in a typically upbeat way "how's is going?" to which my dad could only say something like "other than the fact that my wife is dying, I guess OK." I don't know what he really thought about it, but I suspect that he had at least some realization that being upbeat is just part of the system.

And when we had the funeral, I was fit to be tied. I appreciate that so many did come. ... But their shallow . . . no . . . hollow effort to deal with anything that is not simply Christ and the church and finding good material as they denigrate everyone else in the name of oneness is just a stick in my craw. I wish that the rest of my family saw it clearly enough to get out. Then I would probably just quit thinking about this system of error that calls itself the "Lord's recovery."
I have been thinking about this post OBW. I was going to begin by sending you my belated condolences on your mother's passing. But I think I will begin by sending you my condolences to you for the painful treatment you have endured by your family for not being 'one with the system'.

I get the celebration of a person's life at funerals. Unless the person's passing came through a violent & tragic death, or if it was a child's passing, many people are 'celebrating' their life at funerals. Non believers as well as believers. My beef is what are people especially in the LSM doing for the family and the bed ridden person. First off, I hate the 'cliche' of doing a 'good deed' without real Love and Friendship behind the action.

Let me clarify. I have seen and experienced myself 'church people' come to a home with food and a short visit. It is expected of them to do this service.

You put it so well:

Quote:
Just the comments surrounding some who committed suicide, or even just had trouble with their marriages. People need more than more meetings and more HWMR. They need real people who share in their sufferings. Who come along side with honest help (which is very different from an exhortation to suck-it-up).
Real friends and real family are there for you all the time. They call you to chat at least once-twice a week. (& vice-versa..we do the same) We visit each other. Play board games. Play charades. Enjoy each other's company. And not just for a 'bible study' or fellowship. OF course every visit imho should involve the Lord Jesus in the activity.

Anyway I am glad you saw the LIGHT and were 'led out' of the LSM

Quote:
I'm glad I am not relying on them for what I need. (Of course they would say that you just need Christ. That is true. But Christ has real, live arms and legs in the form of other Christians. They would deny those to people in need.)
Yes Christ is REAL... and Christ, our GOD is LOVE. He is compassionate. He smiles and He cries. He has a sense of Humor. He is Creative. He is the ultimate Creator. He is there for us. And HIS SPIRIT lives in us. But more often than not, we stifle Him with our baggage.

That is one among many reasons why I so look forward to returning whence we came from! To live in the Holy City New Jerusalem. We will experience real Love, Joy, and Beauty beyond our imagination. No more division!!!

I pray the Lord truly bless you OBW..may He surround you with lots of real friends, lots of Love from your immediate family and above all embrace you with His LOVE and inner peace.

Blessings and thanks for sharing,

Carol g
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:54 AM   #33
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Just the comments surrounding some who committed suicide, or even just had trouble with their marriages. People need more than more meetings and more HWMR. They need real people who share in their sufferings. Who come along side with honest help (which is very different from an exhortation to suck-it-up).
While still meeting in the Local churhes, I experienced two completely different home meetings. One where the home meeting consisted of singing songs, getting into the HWFMR, nd no personal prayer. The other not being ministry focused, but person focused. Taking time to listen to each other's troubles and praying for one another; week after week. How can you have talk of turnnga to your spirit, when your soul needs shepherding?
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:14 PM   #34
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I have a love-hate relationship with the "Recovery church life". I love it because I have way too many friends and loved ones in it. And I love all my brothers and sisters in the Lord (whether in or outside of the Recovery). Yet I hate the system so much. I especially hate the way we walk around thinking that we are it (God's move on the earth) when we are just the same as all the other Christians outside the "church life". I'm beginning to see less and less of a difference between "us" and "them". In the early days (the 60's and perhaps 70's), things may have been different. But now the "recovery" is just another Christian denomination. Period. And a peculiar one.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:06 PM   #35
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I have a love-hate relationship with the "Recovery church life". I love it because I have way too many friends and loved ones in it. And I love all my brothers and sisters in the Lord (whether in or outside of the Recovery). Yet I hate the system so much. I especially hate the way we walk around thinking that we are it (God's move on the earth) when we are just the same as all the other Christians outside the "church life". I'm beginning to see less and less of a difference between "us" and "them". In the early days (the 60's and perhaps 70's), things may have been different. But now the "recovery" is just another Christian denomination. Period. And a peculiar one.
Actually, I've been meeting with an evangelical denomination for several years, and it is nothing like the "Lord's Recovery." There is a big difference. I now know many Christians who actually are full of love and grace, and who treat people with kindness and tenderness. That was not the case in the Recovery.
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:02 PM   #36
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I have a love-hate relationship with the "Recovery church life". I love it because I have way too many friends and loved ones in it. And I love all my brothers and sisters in the Lord (whether in or outside of the Recovery). Yet I hate the system so much.
Sorry you are stuck between a rock & a hard place TRUTH. A close look at The LSM reveals it is no different than any other church organization. While you are in that church, some to many people become friends. Once they leave, rarely do they pal around. Just like office workers. People are 'friends' at work but outside work few friendships really remain intact.

A true test of friendship is if you are able to open up to those you consider friends and tell them you have a love-hate relationship w/the RcV. Same goes w/your loved ones (assuming they are family ??) IF you decide to stop going to meetings etc... will they still accept you? But beware, they will still want to read Lee's works with you if they remain 'friends' with you. See if they will read a book or listen to a teaching from someone outside the LSM. Bet they won't.

That said,the most important matter to you must be you remain rock solid in your relationship with your Creator should you ever cut the ties.

Remember: On Christ the Solid ROCK we stand. All other ground is sinking sand. And that includes the RcV.

Another factoid to give you encouragement: There is NO LSM/LC/RcV in heaven. The BRIDE is the Holy City New Jerusalem that comes down from HEAVEN. And the BRIDE is not made up of the LSM people of God only.

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In the early days (the 60's and perhaps 70's), things may have been different. But now the "recovery" is just another Christian denomination. Period. And a peculiar one.
On some levels, it was great! At least in my locality. But by 1977/78, there was such a huge emphasis on 'Brother Lee' being the apostle Paul and the 'oracle of this age'. It went from Christ & the church to Lee & the church, then to Lee & his ministry. :-( which is full of errors & fallacies.

Never forget...Jesus is the Author & Finisher, the Perfector of our Faith. His Spirit will lead us in the path of Righteousness for HIS Name's sake...not anyone else's name.

Blessings & Shalom Truth,
Carol G
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Old 12-11-2013, 06:24 PM   #37
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I have a love-hate relationship with the "Recovery church life". I love it because I have way too many friends and loved ones in it. And I love all my brothers and sisters in the Lord (whether in or outside of the Recovery). Yet I hate the system so much. I especially hate the way we walk around thinking that we are it (God's move on the earth) when we are just the same as all the other Christians outside the "church life". I'm beginning to see less and less of a difference between "us" and "them". In the early days (the 60's and perhaps 70's), things may have been different. But now the "recovery" is just another Christian denomination. Period. And a peculiar one.
Nearly everyone of my posts has this guiding principle -- the LC leaders are different than the many members I have grown to love. I never blame them for the deterioration which has occurred over the years, because all the responsibility lies with their leaders. It is they who have betrayed our trust, and taken advantage of us.
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Old 12-13-2013, 12:13 PM   #38
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Actually, I've been meeting with an evangelical denomination for several years, and it is nothing like the "Lord's Recovery." There is a big difference. I now know many Christians who actually are full of love and grace, and who treat people with kindness and tenderness. That was not the case in the Recovery.
That has been my experience too. In the recovery there is not much grace for those that leave. Probably because grace is not practiced. Instead the attitude is an us versus them behavior. Either you're with us or against us. If you don't take the way of the ministry, you're against us.
The community church I have been meeting with for several years is one of grace. There's no us versus them. When you stop meeting here, you're still part of us.
Witnessing it first hand at a Starbuck's coffee shop while meeting with one of the elders. A former elder happened to coincidentally come to the Starbucks and there was a joyful exchange between the former elder and the current elder (whom I was meeting with).
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Old 12-16-2013, 04:50 AM   #39
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A close look at The LSM reveals it is no different than any other church organization.
I must disagree.

I know you meant that as a "push down the ladder" for the LSM. But instead, you raised the LSM to a level that they do not deserve.

I honestly believe that most comparisons to other "church organizations" should be avoided because in those we tend to continue in our lack of brotherly love toward other Christians, no matter what the writer of the particular post (in this case you) means by it. In other words, not matter how generous you intend to be toward other Christians, it still goes into, through, and back out of our brains as a denigration to them as well.
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:45 AM   #40
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I must disagree....
Of COURSE you disagree Mike !! That's a no brainer.

Carry on....
And the Lord Bless you & all of us because we LOVE HIM and we are ALL a work in progress until we are changed from this corruptible body into our INCORRUPTIBLE bodies to the Glory and Praise of our Savior's Name - Jesus Christ.
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Old 12-16-2013, 11:34 AM   #41
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I must disagree.
That, to me, is your signature line.
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Old 12-16-2013, 03:02 PM   #42
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That, to me, is your signature line.
And, in some sense, it is my nature. If everything is as I think it should be, I am happy that others are saying it. No need to pile on.

But when I think there is something being missed. . . .

Yeah. I know. It often comes across as "whatever did you think you were saying."

In this case, I understood CMW quite well. And without complaint. She was knocking the LSM down from their high-horse as THE publisher of THE ONLY MINISTRY OF GOD. And I applaud her for that.

The problem is the rest of us as we read. For us who have been out for some time now, it is not such an issue (at least not in all cases). But for those still inside, or only barely out, the mind is too polluted by the LRC/LSM garbage that makes any kind of "church organization," or for that matter "organization" as essentially against the tenets of scripture.

Then, add to it that I needed that tongue-in-cheek smiley (that they don't have) when I suggested that she had just insulted so many good Christian/church organizations by suggesting that they were on the same level as the LSM. But if I were Lifeway Bookstore, Billy Graham Evangelistic Crusade (or whatever it is called), or any other number of Christian organizations, I would have been somewhat insulted to be lowered to the level of the LSM (wink, wink, nod, nod, say no more )
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:47 PM   #43
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The problem is the rest of us as we read. For us who have been out for some time now, it is not such an issue (at least not in all cases). But for those still inside, or only barely out, the mind is too polluted by the LRC/LSM garbage that makes any kind of "church organization," or for that matter "organization" as essentially against the tenets of scripture.

Then, add to it that I needed that tongue-in-cheek smiley (that they don't have) when I suggested that she had just insulted so many good Christian/church organizations by suggesting that they were on the same level as the LSM. But if I were Lifeway Bookstore, Billy Graham Evangelistic Crusade (or whatever it is called), or any other number of Christian organizations, I would have been somewhat insulted to be lowered to the level of the LSM (wink, wink, nod, nod, say no more )
Talk about LSM. I often heard how they were not an organization, but an organism. LSM is just a simple publisher of books.
Yes, I would agree if LSM was just a simple publisher of books, LSM would be as many a Christian organization. However they are not so simple.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:24 PM   #44
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And, in some sense, it is my nature. If everything is as I think it should be, I am happy that others are saying it. No need to pile on.

But when I think there is something being missed. . . .

Yeah. I know. It often comes across as "whatever did you think you were saying."

In this case, I understood CMW quite well. And without complaint. She was knocking the LSM down from their high-horse as THE publisher of THE ONLY MINISTRY OF GOD. And I applaud her for that.

You WHAT
???

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The problem is the rest of us as we read. For us who have been out for some time now, it is not such an issue (at least not in all cases). But for those still inside, or only barely out, the mind is too polluted by the LRC/LSM garbage that makes any kind of "church organization," or for that matter "organization" as essentially against the tenets of scripture.
Got it. But if they were to take an honest look at their organization which it is, they would have to acknowledge they ARE a religious business organization because they have a board of directors, they get tax exemptions, they sell their publications and charge $$ to their "trainings".

Was the early church a business organization? I hope not! The church is the Body of Christ with Christ (GOD) as the Head & His Spirit guiding us, teaching us, enlightening us, anointing us through His Word and His speaking to our spirits.

Quote:
Then, add to it that I needed that tongue-in-cheek smiley (that they don't have) when I suggested that she had just insulted so many good Christian/church organizations by suggesting that they were on the same level as the LSM. But if I were Lifeway Bookstore, Billy Graham Evangelistic Crusade (or whatever it is called), or any other number of Christian organizations, I would have been somewhat insulted to be lowered to the level of the LSM (wink, wink, nod, nod, say no more )


It is 'funny' but actually it is sad. It is sad because the LSM through Lee elevated itself as being better 'than thou'.

That said, Revelation 2 & 3 points out the problems in the church that exist to this day among all believers.

I found this telling but sad interview in the Blaze, by Ted Haggard, a former mega church 'star'.

Here is an excerpt:

Quote:
When Bill Bright led me to the Lord when I was 16, I learned that I had become a new creature, a new person, and that I did not need to be concerned about anything in my past, that it was all covered by the blood.”

But Haggard said that his past was still impacting his life.

In the end, the former megapastor claimed that his Christian training was delivered by people who didn’t respect the mental health and neural science professions. This translated, he wrote, into a counterproductive situation, as he was taught to view all issues as being entirely spiritual in nature.

“If I prayed and fasted, I was more tempted. If I just worked in ministry, I experienced relief and was not tempted,” Haggard continued. “I thought it was spiritual warfare. It was not. My struggle was easily explained by a competent therapeutic team.”

Haggard said that he believes wholeheartedly in the Bible, but that Christianity has “abandoned the application of the gospel” and that, as a result, too much time is spent on image management and damage control.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/12/16/ex-megapastor-ted-haggard-says-something-is-very-wrong-in-christian-culture-following-pastor-isaac-hunters-suicide/

Come Lord Jesus. The sooner, the better!

Blessings all,
Carol
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Old 12-17-2013, 05:46 AM   #45
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I found this telling but sad interview in the Blaze, by Ted Haggard, a former mega church 'star'.

Here is an excerpt:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/12/16/ex-megapastor-ted-haggard-says-something-is-very-wrong-in-christian-culture-following-pastor-isaac-hunters-suicide/
My security system shut down that website page because of a potential attack.
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Old 12-17-2013, 07:16 AM   #46
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My security system shut down that website page because of a potential attack.
Really ? Wow.
Well..I am sure if you google Ted Haggard you can find it somewhere. I somewhat had followed the scandal as he was all over the place in the news.

He went through denial...then got kicked out of the church...then went through 'rehab', was on Oprah with a cocky attitude, then began selling life insurance...but this was the most forthcoming & humbling interview.

I truly believe God never gives up on us. What a very Merciful & Patient God we have. To Him all the Glory & Praise with Thanksgiving forevermore. Amen? amen.
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:00 AM   #47
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Really ? Wow.
Well..I am sure if you google Ted Haggard you can find it somewhere. I somewhat had followed the scandal as he was all over the place in the news.

He went through denial...then got kicked out of the church...then went through 'rehab', was on Oprah with a cocky attitude, then began selling life insurance...but this was the most forthcoming & humbling interview.
Never heard about him.

Tried that link again and it worked.

His Dad is spiritual adviser to Obama?

I did read about that "rock-star" Pastor Steven, however, and his $2M home.

These guys make Nee and Lee look like monastic ascetics.
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:21 AM   #48
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Ted Haggard is one of the reasons that I think that Christianity should refrain from being some kind of "block" of political power and influence. He was the president (or other title — leader) of the main "Christian Right" political organization, and senior pastor of a major (mega) church in Colorado. He was outspoken on all the "right" positions that Christians supposedly want the government to legislate on. Gays and lesbians (and their marriage) and their ability to have jobs like other Americans. Abortion. Border security. And so on.

All positions that I mostly agreed with. But not in the way that it was pushed. Not in a way that makes Christians, in general, appear to be the jack-booted thugs that want to send all the heathen to hell now rather than after their death. Hateful ways of dealing with the issues.

Ways that harm the gospel because the average person is less likely to even open their ears and listen.

Then he (Haggert) turns out to have been carrying on with a male "massage therapist" of some sort. I accept that many of us are hiding sins that we hope we can overcome (at least I hope we hope that). But when you go on record as fighting against the sins of sinners, and one of the sins you speak about so strongly turns out to be your own . . . .

And when you are the leader of the rather large coalition of "similarly minded" Christians, it makes a mockery of the whole thing.

It laughs at love for your neighbor. It exposes the strong disdain for them in the name of Christ. And then laughs all the more when the enemy becomes us.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:31 AM   #49
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Ted Haggard is one of the reasons that I think that Christianity should refrain from being some kind of "block" of political power and influence. He was the president (or other title — leader) of the main "Christian Right" political organization, and senior pastor of a major (mega) church in Colorado. He was outspoken on all the "right" positions that Christians supposedly want the government to legislate on. Gays and lesbians (and their marriage) and their ability to have jobs like other Americans. Abortion. Border security. And so on.

All positions that I mostly agreed with. But not in the way that it was pushed. Not in a way that makes Christians, in general, appear to be the jack-booted thugs that want to send all the heathen to hell now rather than after their death. Hateful ways of dealing with the issues.

Ways that harm the gospel because the average person is less likely to even open their ears and listen.

Then he (Haggert) turns out to have been carrying on with a male "massage therapist" of some sort. I accept that many of us are hiding sins that we hope we can overcome (at least I hope we hope that). But when you go on record as fighting against the sins of sinners, and one of the sins you speak about so strongly turns out to be your own . . . .

And when you are the leader of the rather large coalition of "similarly minded" Christians, it makes a mockery of the whole thing.

It laughs at love for your neighbor. It exposes the strong disdain for them in the name of Christ. And then laughs all the more when the enemy becomes us.
BINGO !!!! Ya hit it on the noggin Mike.
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:01 PM   #50
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Ted Haggard is one of the reasons that I think that Christianity should refrain from being some kind of "block" of political power and influence...Then he (Haggert) turns out to have been carrying on with a male "massage therapist" of some sort. I accept that many of us are hiding sins that we hope we can overcome (at least I hope we hope that). But when you go on record as fighting against the sins of sinners, and one of the sins you speak about so strongly turns out to be your own . . . .

And when you are the leader of the rather large coalition of "similarly minded" Christians, it makes a mockery of the whole thing.
I agree. The idea that Christians are or should be a block politically flies in the face of on-the-ground reality. Some Christians act as if Jesus is a white suburbanite who votes Republican in every election and if you're a real Christian you would too. Reality is many sincere Christians vote Democrat, have nuanced views on complex social issues, etc.

But suppose Haggard was just a pastor who occasionally taught against homosexual behavior (or any other sin) while expounding Scripture and then it was found out he was engaging in such behavior himself. If he genuinely repents and ends the behavior how should the church relate to him thereafter?
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Old 12-17-2013, 12:34 PM   #51
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I agree. The idea that Christians are or should be a block politically flies in the face of on-the-ground reality. Some Christians act as if Jesus is a white suburbanite who votes Republican in every election and if you're a real Christian you would too. Reality is many sincere Christians vote Democrat, have nuanced views on complex social issues, etc.

But suppose Haggard was just a pastor who occasionally taught against homosexual behavior (or any other sin) while expounding Scripture and then it was found out he was engaging in such behavior himself. If he genuinely repents and ends the behavior how should the church relate to him thereafter?
The only tie Haggard has to the subject of Witness Lee is that the only way he knows to make a living is to be a minister of a church.

Witness Lee failed at all his business ventures except his ministry and book publishing.

After his mega-church kick him to the curb, Ted tried to make a living selling insurance. But he couldn't make it in the real world, and it certainly didn't support him in the custom he was use to when a leader of the evangelicals, before his fall from grace, and before he was defrocked.

So now he's restarted his ministry ... cuz that's the only way he knows to make a living.

And just like with the fallen Jim Bakker, Christians will follow him. Cuz he's made a very convincing case that trauma therapy cured him ... wink wink ... please keep the donations coming.
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Old 12-17-2013, 03:57 PM   #52
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I agree. The idea that Christians are or should be a block politically flies in the face of on-the-ground reality. Some Christians act as if Jesus is a white suburbanite who votes Republican in every election and if you're a real Christian you would too. Reality is many sincere Christians vote Democrat, have nuanced views on complex social issues, etc.

But suppose Haggard was just a pastor who occasionally taught against homosexual behavior (or any other sin) while expounding Scripture and then it was found out he was engaging in such behavior himself. If he genuinely repents and ends the behavior how should the church relate to him thereafter?
How? Very differently than before. He should be welcomed back as a brother, just as Paul directed the Corinthians to welcome the brother who was excommunicated per the first letter.

But his position of ministry can never be the same. Maybe be part of a ministry to those struggle with their demons. Maybe become part of the Celebrate Recovery or other nuanced 12-step program for true Christian healing. But not as the head of a mega-church (or even a small church). His life is different.

I can't find verses to support my position, but it is how I piece the various texts on the subject together. And without something that definitively points me in a different direction, that is where I feel I must stand.

Or to rephrase, "it seems good to me and to the Holy Spirit (I think)." And just like the original version of that statement, it is subject to review and revisit.
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Old 12-17-2013, 05:56 PM   #53
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I think if somebody has a fall like Haggard's, he or she needs to spend at least 10 years just being a servant, maybe longer. I agree, guys. This guy has no business pretending to be a minister right now. He should have humbled himself and gone to the desert to be a sheep herder for an expended period, serving humbly sweeping floors in a little church somewhere. I'm not saying penance. I'm saying proving himself. The guy has not been tested.
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Old 12-17-2013, 07:54 PM   #54
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I think if somebody has a fall like Haggard's, he or she needs to spend at least 10 years just being a servant, maybe longer. I agree, guys. This guy has no business pretending to be a minister right now. He should have humbled himself and gone to the desert to be a sheep herder for an expended period, serving humbly sweeping floors in a little church somewhere. I'm not saying penance. I'm saying proving himself. The guy has not been tested.
But if his associates welcomed him back because he has gone through therapy & 'cured'...and knows how to run a church business, then, "Welcome Back Kotter! We missed ya".

Isn't this what Lee did with Phillip & Timothy? (not sure about Timothy btw) Lee trusted Phillip with the church business 'cause he knew how to run it.

And thus my comment:

Quote:
A close look at The LSM reveals it is no different than any other church organization.
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Old 12-17-2013, 09:51 PM   #55
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And I still disagree with . . .
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A close look at The LSM reveals it is no different than any other church organization.
. . . because it looks at the splashy errors that hit the news and banishes every other organization to the same status and fate.

But I see may church organizations, from small to large that are faithfully exhibiting their love of God and neighbor even as they hunger and thirst for righteousness.

It's the "any other" part of the statement that is problematic. When I see the results of a Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggert, Robert Tilton, Jim Bakker . . . and Lee and his miscreant sons . . . it hurts because those are not the norm. They are the exception. And they (excluding the LSM) got big enough to be observed in a big way. But the number of churches and their preachers, from very small to even other "megas," that are not like that screams at the injustice of calling them all "just like the LSM" or "just like Bakker" and his prosperity gospel ministry.

It just comes off (to me) sounding like Lee was right that everything in Christianity is terrible, and now we see that the LRC/LSM is too. They've got (drum roll, please) . . . clergy!! (and guess what, so does the LRC/LSM.) And rather than turning away from it and back to the way, we continue to follow his errors as we declare the LRC/LSM to just join the rest of Christianity in some quagmire.

Lee was a huckster. But we are still quoting his lyrics day after day. We declare that he was right about everything except his miscreant sons. We evidently want him to be right about everything, and when it turns out that his organization stinks, we declare that it is "just like every other church organization."

I'm offending plenty of people now. And there will be a few private push-backs (if history repeats itself).

But we know we are smarter and more spiritual than all those who went before us for the past 2,000 years. They all got it wrong (well, maybe except a very select few that virtually no one ever heard of) and we got it right.

Well, sort of. Right enough to create a fourth God. And learn how to walk in backward to cover the gross sins of our leaders.

Actually, the real error is that, despite the love we had (and still have) for one another, and the good times we had in the early days, the thing that was off track is more likely to have been the LRC than the bulk of Christianity. Might have even been more off than the RCC in some ways.

But we are still dissecting Christianity through the microscope Lee gave us as we allow specific miscreants — the exceptions — color the whole thing as "just like . . . ."
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:51 AM   #56
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It's the "any other" part of the statement that is problematic. When I see the results of a Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggert, Robert Tilton, Jim Bakker . . . and Lee and his miscreant sons . . . it hurts because those are not the norm. They are the exception.
What is particularly disgusting to me transpired in the Spring of 1987. As all the bad press about Swaggert and Bakker was splashed across the daily headlines, I was en route to Taipei to participate in "God's up-to-date move on earth to evangelize the whole earth in the new way." The ugly scandals with Swaggert and Bakker served as the black backdrop for God's "holy, righteous, and shining work at LSM/FTTT." Or so I thought. And so I was told. Little did I know of Phillip Lee's hanky-panky at the same time!

At least Swaggert had the decency of finding a nondescript motel. Philip Lee was using the corner office at LSM headquarters.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:55 PM   #57
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...I was en route to Taipei to participate in "God's up-to-date move on earth to evangelize the whole earth in the new way." The ugly scandals with Swaggert and Bakker served as the black backdrop for God's "holy, righteous, and shining work at LSM/FTTT." Or so I thought. And so I was told. Little did I know of Phillip Lee's hanky-panky at the same time!
The premise of the LC system requires a black backdrop. If Witness Lee cannot paint Christianity as the big bad whore then who needs the "The Recovery" - that remnant group of God's super special people who see the light while other Christians languish in darkness? But if you market yourself this way you also have to have a culture of cover-up to go along with it otherwise people will find out you're nothing special and you'll lose your main selling point.

Interestingly enough Lee never said the LC system, himself or Watchman Nee didn't have problems. What he did say is: he chose to ignore them or cover them up. He publicly promoted verbally and in print John So and John Ingalls as pillars in the church and said one their secrets of success was they ate the chicken (of his ministry) but ignored the bones. Until...the bones became so big they couldn't ignore them anymore because they were choking. And then Lee immediately changed his tune and said...they changed like Demas in the NT (2 Tim 4:10) i.e. the one who forsook Paul because he loved the world.

Put other way James Barber called Philip Lee and his antics the "fly in the ointment". Now most people would think: Let's just remove the fly from the ointment! Simple huh? But Lee's weird MO was: Let's merrily drink the ointment with the fly in it and never discuss the fly and the problems it creates.
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:15 PM   #58
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Interestingly enough Lee never said the LC system, himself or Watchman Nee didn't have problems. What he did say is: he chose to ignore them or cover them up. He publicly promoted verbally and in print John So and John Ingalls as pillars in the church and said one their secrets of success was they ate the chicken (of his ministry) but ignored the bones. Until...the bones became so big they couldn't ignore them anymore because they were choking. And then Lee immediately changed his tune and said...they changed like Demas in the NT (2 Tim 4:10) i.e. the one who forsook Paul because he loved the world.
I heard that "eat the meat, not the feathers and bones" analogy for years, and as a guiding principle, I agree with it. Every minister is entitled to flaws, shortcomings ("warts" as ole Speakers Corner would say), and a bad kid, or two. If that's all there was, then this forum prolly would not exist, at least not for me.

But it never was about flaws and shortcomings. It was about covering up criminal activity. It was about lots of God's children getting hurt. It was about smearing the reputations of godly men who spoke their conscience on behalf of others, calling them rebellious lepers. What other ministries had regular "storms" like we had every 5 or 10 years since the beginning?
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:36 PM   #59
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What other ministries had regular "storms" like we had every 5 or 10 years since the beginning?
It is all how you handle turmoils. Do you extend grace to brothers and sisters or do you regard them with persona non grata?
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:39 PM   #60
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He publicly promoted verbally and in print John So and John Ingalls as pillars in the church and said one their secrets of success was they ate the chicken (of his ministry) but ignored the bones. Until...the bones became so big they couldn't ignore them anymore because they were choking. And then Lee immediately changed his tune
As easy as it was to applaud brothers in print, it was just as easy for LSM to edit their names out of print.
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:43 PM   #61
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It is all how you handle turmoils. Do you extend grace to brothers and sisters or do you regard them with persona non grata?
You forgive! and you pray! Jesus taught us to forgive and love our enemies because that's the only way to stop the cycle of violence. Brother's and sisters love to fight and tear each other apart but we often forget that our war is not against flesh and blood but against the powers and principalities in the air. Prayer is the only way to fight it-- and other fruits of the Spirit as well such as mercy, grace, love and forgiveness.

Violence begets more violence. Strife begets more strife. Think Romeo and Juliet's families. The only way to break the cycle is to love your enemy. Jesus is called the Prince of Peace for a good reason!

The only case I can see for excommunication is if they are involved in gross sin in which they need to removed until they repent for their soul's sake (from my point of view, when their salvation is in danger because they are practicing works of the flesh such as sexual immorality per Galatians 5:19-21), or they are purposely sowing division, as I believe Apostle Paul taught.

1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:46 AM   #62
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It is all how you handle turmoils. Do you extend grace to brothers and sisters or do you regard them with persona non grata?
And how would the MOTA "extend grace" to those brothers who expose his family's corrupt ways?
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:48 AM   #63
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Many things in the Bible are somewhat ambiguous at least as to how they are understood. But one occurency toward the end of the Lord's life seems to me to be ever so simple. The apostles were argueing about who was or would be the greatest among them which is certainly plain old human nature. Upon hearing their fussing the Lord told them that that sort of things was the way the gentiles acted but it was not the way the apostles were to act. In fact their real leaders were going to be servants

Now I have never seen that much serving in all my seventy years and I certainly haven't seen much in the LC. I heard from a very responsible fellow that while he was in Taiwan back in the late 70's or early 80's WL fired all the elder elders. Of course he got rid of any leader in the 80's that gave him any problem with his son's problems. Then the BB's excomunicate whole sections of the US as well as countries in South America. There is no earthly way that such actions could be in any related to the work of a servant.

Many may well remember the full page advertisements in major news papers when WL died. Bondslave of Jesus Christ. It's difficult to find greater hypocricy than this.

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Old 12-20-2013, 05:12 PM   #64
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Then the BB's excomunicate whole sections of the US as well as countries in South America. There is no earthly way that such actions could be in any related to the work of a servant.
Don't forget about Taiwan and other portions of SE Asia where excommunications (aka quarantines) were levied.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:19 PM   #65
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Now I have never seen that much serving in all my seventy years and I certainly haven't seen much in the LC. I heard from a very responsible fellow that while he was in Taiwan back in the late 70's or early 80's WL fired all the elder elders. Of course he got rid of any leader in the 80's that gave him any problem with his son's problems. Then the BB's excommunicate whole sections of the US as well as countries in South America. There is no earthly way that such actions could be in any related to the work of a servant.
Many may well remember the full page advertisements in major news papers when WL died. Bondslave of Jesus Christ. It's difficult to find greater hypocrisy than this.

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Dear brother Lisbon,

One of the things I did when I discovered the hypocrisy at LSM and left their "Recovery," was to separate, at least in my mind, the Local Church leaders from the many precious and loving saints which I had come to know over the years.

I never want to discredit all those wonderful times together in Christ that I had shared with other brothers and sisters. The Lord will preserve the remembrance of those times for eternity.
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Old 12-23-2013, 02:02 PM   #66
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Somewhat commenting on Bearbears #58.
When I am perfectly sober and calm, I can readily agree with several posters who speak that all we can do is pray. Certainly our situation is no surprise to the Lord and in a sense He is not going to do much about it. Just think, the church is very near to being 2000 years and there has never been a protracted time of wonder. Remember Paul wrote to Timothy, "all Asia has deserted me." And John wrote to maybe th e same group not that much later with a verdict of trouble.

One of my hardest things to get over in a way is that how could I be so stupid, and how could we be so stupid. I know very few smart people so maybe that is the answer. RK is one of th e smartest persons I have known in the LC and look how he turned out. It may be hard for people to believe in God but it is not at all hard for me to believe in the devil. Over quite a long period of time we were very drugged. Why we didn't stand up and scream when WL started trashing the Bible is not easy for me to understand some 27 years ago. Why didn't we pray then. We were badly drugged then and things have never changed.

I get a double dose of something each Sunday and I continue to be dismayed when I hear the lchers reading WL so sweetly and uniformily. How can they do that? I really don't think there is any hope. The Bretheren still have a meeting in our city and even smaller groups than that. I like one of the posters who says "where do we go from here.? I am sure of one thing, I have no desire to be a crusader.

I'm sure I don't pray like I shoud but I do pray more than ever before in my life. Our children and our friends so need our prayers. I have little burden to pray for the LSM and in my area all the churches are solidly for LSM unless I am badly fooled.

Lord help us!

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Old 12-23-2013, 10:04 PM   #67
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One of my hardest things to get over in a way is that how could I be so stupid, and how could we be so stupid.
Read Animal Farm by George Orwell. That helped me understand the snare I was in. Didn't really give me direction for my life though. The only ONE Who can & does that for us is Jesus Christ. We seek Him with a pure heart and He will direct our hearts & minds.

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RK is one of th e smartest persons I have known in the LC
I've heard that too but he has got to be the most boring speaker in the world!!! Someone in the LC used to send me CD messages of him speaking. I don't think I listened more than 2 minutes of him talking. He was TERRIBLE!!! I was asked to watch the Francis Ball celebration memorial via webcam too. When he spoke... WOW !! That was the worst memorial service I had ever 'attended'. Horrible. Just Horrible. WEIRD in fact.

Oh... and there were several people who began their 'prophesies' with "God made man to make man god in life and nature, but not in the God-head".

I bet he has the knack to cure insomnia though.

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Why we didn't stand up and scream when WL started trashing the Bible is not easy for me to understand some 27 years ago. Why didn't we pray then.
How different do you think it is from the RCC ? It became a clone of it. The RCC congregants use 'missals' & catechism doctrines likened to the LSM's HWMR & 'life studies'. The RCC has it's own Catholic Bible as does the LSM, the RcV.

The RCC has the Pope...but unlike Lee, the Pope is replaced when he dies.
Lee of course is the everlasting pope in the LSM.

So not to make this a longer post, I am going to start a new thread on the Jezebel spirit. It may help you understand how people got sucked in.

What is an interesting factoid about me is I was raised Catholic. When I got saved, it was the LC brethren that led me to Christ (in a very, very strong way I might add. Glory to the Lord Jesus!) All was well more or less for a couple of years. I really got set free from most of my sins right away. I had some hidden sins that God eventually set me free from. But it took years because I would not let go.

Anyway...as time went on, legalism crept in in a very big way. We stopped using the word 'Sunday'. It was announced in a meeting one day Sunday was now going to be referred to as "The Lord's Day" because brother Lee said so. We exchanged the bible for the Life Studies. The Life studies became our bible. No different than the RCC 'missals'.

It took me a while to see how similar Lee's teachings were like the RCC. The outer darkness teaching is a purgatory teaching. Purgatory is a place where the souls of Catholics with little sins go to before they go to heaven. It is people's prayers that get them out. Grant it Lee didn't go that far to my knowledge but Purgatory was basically the outer darkness doctrine he taught.

The other common denominator the RCC & the LSM have is the majority of Catholics don't give a kitten kaboodle about the RCC. They go to mass out of habit. But they openly and arrogantly sin without fear. A good example are the Kennedys. Good Catholic men. Uh - Huh. Oh...and the Italian Mafia. Remember the Godfather movie??

But tell those people how evil the RCC is and they'll hang you upside down! Tell them about Jesus and their response is "I am a Catholic & I am not going to change my religion", while they light up a cigarette & take a swig of their beer while checking out a hot dude or a hot chick walking by them.

So what is the stronghold that keeps people in these cult like organizations?

Stay tuned.


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We were badly drugged then and things have never changed.
But those who truly desire GOD will be delivered.

Quote:
Lord help us!
Amen Lisbon. Amen.

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Old 12-24-2013, 06:55 AM   #68
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One of my hardest things to get over in a way is that how could I be so stupid, and how could we be so stupid. I know very few smart people so maybe that is the answer. RK is one of th e smartest persons I have known in the LC and look how he turned out. It may be hard for people to believe in God but it is not at all hard for me to believe in the devil. Over quite a long period of time we were very drugged. Why we didn't stand up and scream when WL started trashing the Bible is not easy for me to understand some 27 years ago. Why didn't we pray then. We were badly drugged then and things have never changed.
I had the same feelings when I read the bible again with my LSM blinders off. I felt like I was becoming a Christian all over again. Even though my past life in LSM was depressing and resulted in little spiritual growth, it was exhilarating and exciting to rediscover God and his word again.

After I discovered the bible doesn't really teach assurance of salvation after a simple profession of belief and that only a subset of evangelicals + most southern baptists + brethren + LCs adhere to free grace, it blew my mind away how I could have been so blind. But it's not hard to understand because very few Pastors talk about hell nowadays and you wouldn't even know their theology believes you can go to hell as a Christian for being addicted to things like porn. I realized that I had read the bible haphazardly in the past. Now every verse in the bible has meaning for me and I understand more how nothing is in God's word by accident because it speaks life to so many areas of my existence.

A lot of God's word is so hard to take in it's plain meaning since it convicts our hearts so heavily at times. For that reason men have developed all sorts of theology to soften it's blow throughout the ages. So it's important we hook up with the One Teacher Jesus said we had and the Spirit of truth who will guide us to all truth.

That said I think the best thing to do in your situation is to pray that God would lead you to the right fellowship of Christians who are crazy for Jesus and nothing else. Trust me they're out there if you look hard enough Elijah thought he was alone in the world but God told him he had preserved 7000 like him that didn't bow to Baal.

If you have trouble finding people I recommend watching Sid Roth's channel on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBk8h...Oo8LFBqflttsC5

He's a Messianic Jew who is totally nuts for Jesus. I don't care what people say about Charismatics like him because the dude is on fire for God and it's infectious. He also has a lot of guests on his show that can minister on healing for your life, because God knows how much spiritual healing ex-LCers like myself needed.

Also here is a letter from your Father God to remind you how much he loves you:
http://www.fathersloveletter.com/
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Old 04-28-2014, 07:16 PM   #69
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I am back on this forum because I need help. It looks like things have changed for me. Previously I introduced myself as one who must remain in local church where I am though I didn't agree with most of its practice. I think now is the time. The Lord is leading me out. It won't be easy; it will be a lonely route. I don't know where to go.

I wished I can write about my situation and history (see past posts in this thread) in more detail but I must remain anonymous for I fear persecution. It is sad that anyone who speaks negatively in the LC might be branded a rebel; this is what I fear. I don't want to be labeled as such. I will write more of my thoughts in a little while...
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:16 PM   #70
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I am back on this forum because I need help. It looks like things have changed for me. Previously I introduced myself as one who must remain in local church where I am though I didn't agree with most of its practice. I think now is the time. The Lord is leading me out. It won't be easy; it will be a lonely route. I don't know where to go.

I wished I can write about my situation and history (see past posts in this thread) in more detail but I must remain anonymous for I fear persecution. It is sad that anyone who speaks negatively in the LC might be branded a rebel; this is what I fear. I don't want to be labeled as such. I will write more of my thoughts in a little while...
I'm also currently in the LC, and I feel that I need to leave eventually. I know there are others here who are still in the LC as well. You are not alone. Leaving is not easy, if it was I would have left already. I think we all have similar concerns about leaving and don't want to feel "alone". I take comfort in realizing that the fact we have to worry about being isolated or labeled a "rebel" clearly indicates that something is wrong with the LC. I know that I have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but when I try to look at it objectively, it isn't so hard to realize that I need to leave.
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:27 PM   #71
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I am back on this forum because I need help. It looks like things have changed for me. Previously I introduced myself as one who must remain in local church where I am though I didn't agree with most of its practice. I think now is the time. The Lord is leading me out. It won't be easy; it will be a lonely route. I don't know where to go.

I wished I can write about my situation and history (see past posts in this thread) in more detail but I must remain anonymous for I fear persecution. It is sad that anyone who speaks negatively in the LC might be branded a rebel; this is what I fear. I don't want to be labeled as such. I will write more of my thoughts in a little while...
A brother I'm close with, and his wife, just quietly walked out. No big deal.
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:31 PM   #72
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I'm also currently in the LC, and I feel that I need to leave eventually. I know there are others here who are still in the LC as well. You are not alone. Leaving is not easy, if it was I would have left already. I think we all have similar concerns about leaving and don't want to feel "alone". I take comfort in realizing that the fact we have to worry about being isolated or labeled a "rebel" clearly indicates that something is wrong with the LC. I know that I have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but when I try to look at it objectively, it isn't so hard to realize that I need to leave.
Seems to me you've developed a kind of co-dependency. Time to stand on your own two feet. You'll more than feel alone for awhile ... but you'll get over it ... and be stronger for it.

Many blessings ....
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Old 04-28-2014, 11:24 PM   #73
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A brother I'm close with, and his wife, just quietly walked out. No big deal.
Thanks awareness. This works if you don't have any close friends/connections in the LC. I have a few, and more than a few. There is no way I can just step out quietly without being noticed. I grew up in this and have given my life to this. I was one of those die-hard ministry supporters myself. None can imagine me leaving. It would come as a big shock.

How would I explain all this to them without lying? If I brought up the history of the LC it would seriously hurt some and maybe even ruin their lives. I have friends who have given their entire life and careers to the LC. Some of these are true friends. I know that even when I leave, we will stay in touch; however, this would become a huge wall in our relationship.

I feel stuck and imprisoned right now.
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:54 AM   #74
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... the fact we have to worry about being isolated or labeled a "rebel" clearly indicates that something is wrong with the LC. I know that I have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but when I try to look at it objectively, it isn't so hard to realize that I need to leave.
The apostle John was apparently aware of this dynamic:

"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue" 12:42

See also:

"His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue." 9:22

People do have faith in their hearts, and aspirations to obey that faith, but because they fear adverse consequences they're prevented from acting.

The Local Churches of Lee, which made a big deal out of leaving the "sheep fold" and going into the open pasture, have constructed a pretty effective sheep pen themselves.
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:32 AM   #75
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The problem with the Local Churches of Lee is that they got us to take our eyes off Jesus Christ and focus on the Church. It went under other guises, like the Body, the Work, the Ministry, the Move of the Lord, God's current speaking, the Deputy Authority, and the New Jerusalem (among other things). But in all of it we got pushed away from our relationship with our Savior and became dependent upon other things. The approval of the so-called apostle, which turned out to be arbitrary and capricious indeed, became a stand-in for our Savior's voice.

Then by the time you realize something is wrong it is hard to find your way out because where did Christ go? You start thinking, What will people think?

Remember when you first believed? Some of your worldly companions were dismayed, but you didn't worry about what they thought, because of your joy over finding Christ. Why should you think otherwise today? The journey remains the same: find Christ, and obey. The scriptures lie open before you. Find Him, and follow.

Not that I don't sympathize with the ones posting here. I am just saying that I believe the solution is the same as it always has been. There are millions of problems in this world, and getting ensnared in legalistic and lifeless religion is certainly one of them. But the solution, and the Savior, remains the same. That never changes.
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Old 04-29-2014, 05:51 AM   #76
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How would I explain all this to them without lying? If I brought up the history of the LC it would seriously hurt some and maybe even ruin their lives. I have friends who have given their entire life and careers to the LC. Some of these are true friends. I know that even when I leave, we will stay in touch; however, this would become a huge wall in our relationship.

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Old 04-29-2014, 06:58 AM   #77
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Thanks awareness. This works if you don't have any close friends/connections in the LC. I have a few, and more than a few. There is no way I can just step out quietly without being noticed. I grew up in this and have given my life to this. I was one of those die-hard ministry supporters myself. None can imagine me leaving. It would come as a big shock.

How would I explain all this to them without lying? If I brought up the history of the LC it would seriously hurt some and maybe even ruin their lives. I have friends who have given their entire life and careers to the LC. Some of these are true friends. I know that even when I leave, we will stay in touch; however, this would become a huge wall in our relationship.

I feel stuck and imprisoned right now.
All my best friends are exLCers. They stayed in when I got the boot. I didn't just quietly walk away. I caused a storm ... a really big storm ... a frantic meeting fist pumping kind of storm.

My friends now considered me a serpent back then, as the lead elder told them. Eventually, years later they got the boot too.

So my exit wasn't easy. It broke my wife and I down. We cried for days and felt miserably lost.

But we got over it. Especially when an elder blatantly ripped us off. We took that as a confirmation that we did the right thing by standing our ground and leaving.

But after leaving the LC support group our marriage failed, as did the marriage of all my present exLCer friends, including the bro and his wife that quietly walked out.

It helped, tho, that both walked out together. Not everyone can just quietly walk away like them.

So my heart and prayers are with you bro. May God be with you. It's not going to be easy. But internally you're already gone.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:11 AM   #78
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Thanks awareness. This works if you don't have any close friends/connections in the LC. I have a few, and more than a few. There is no way I can just step out quietly without being noticed. I grew up in this and have given my life to this. I was one of those die-hard ministry supporters myself. None can imagine me leaving. It would come as a big shock.

How would I explain all this to them without lying? If I brought up the history of the LC it would seriously hurt some and maybe even ruin their lives. I have friends who have given their entire life and careers to the LC. Some of these are true friends. I know that even when I leave, we will stay in touch; however, this would become a huge wall in our relationship.

I feel stuck and imprisoned right now.
Most of the posters here were once die-hard ministry supporters too. I was there 30 years.

Truth, if the Lord is leading you out, then you only need to say to family and friends that you are struggling to follow the Lord. Ask the Lord what you should say, and to whom. Don't put the blame on them, and they will be more apt to listen.

If you have become disgusted with the LC system, perhaps because of what you have read or experienced first hand, then you have to consider and re-consider. All churches are flawed; none are perfect. Does what you find so obnoxious in the LRC outweigh friendships and Christian bonds?

Granted things may have been a little easier for me to leave. All the LC's in the region were dividing due to the quarantine of TC. Even before I left I had trouble with the HWMR, but I loved to labor in the Word and speak for the Lord. So I prayed over the verses from the HWMR, and found the anointing there to share with the church. I do miss that part of the churchlife.

The church is really those around you with the Lord in your midst. LSM and its programs are not the church, and may not even be helping the church. You have no obligation to fulfill all of their demands. One of the worst teachings of LSM is to change the scripture "many members but one body" (I Cor 12.20) into "many LC's but one body," which is not the body of Christ at all, but their loyal membership.

The Lord had little good to say to some of the churches in Revelations 2-3, yet He told none of those members to leave, rather to stay and overcome, and He would bless them.

Pray the Lord would make it clear to you what to do and say.
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Old 04-29-2014, 08:40 AM   #79
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I take comfort in realizing that the fact we have to worry about being isolated or labeled a "rebel" clearly indicates that something is wrong with the LC. I know that I have a lot of mixed feelings about it, but when I try to look at it objectively, it isn't so hard to realize that I need to leave.
This is a huge insight, especially for someone who is still within the LC fold. Frankly, you are miles ahead of many of us, even after we had physically left for months and even years. This is one of the main reasons for this forum's existence - to have a safe and open place to "process" the thoughts and feelings you have while you go through a very difficult transition. One thing to always, always keep in mind....You are NOT "leaving the Church". You cannot leave the Church anymore than you could leave the Body of Christ. In fact the Church, the Body of Christ is waiting with open arms to accept you, to help you, to protect you. This took me YEARS to realize after I left. But there is no reason for it to take so long for you and Truth.

May the Father of lights, in whom there is no shadow of turning, grant you his wisdom and understanding. May the Lord Jesus, the Great Shepard, lead you and comfort you. May the Spirit of Truth guide you into all truth.
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:24 AM   #80
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The Lord had little good to say to some of the churches in Revelations 2-3, yet He told none of those members to leave, rather to stay and overcome, and He would bless them.
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"Obey the Lord, and leave all the consequences to Him." - Charles Stanley
Obedience to the Lord will always surprise you. How can you tell, ahead of time, whether He will say, "Get out of her, my people", or "Each one, in what he was called, in this let him remain"? (Rev 18:4/Jer 51:45, vs. 1 Cor 7)

That is why I say that the the Bible is open before you. Are you open before God? Don't come into God's word with your concepts, finding portions to support yourself and ignoring what isn't convenient. Let the revelation push away your ideas and your comfort. Forget your hard-won vision of how things are, and should be. God led you on this path for a reason. God doesn't make mistakes. Don't tell God under what circumstances you are prepared to worship, follow, and obey Him.

That's how we got saved in the first place. We were willing to let go of what we thought was known, and embrace the unknown. Why suddenly require certitude to follow and obey?
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:53 AM   #81
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Obedience to the Lord will always surprise you
Joh 10:3 ... the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
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Old 04-29-2014, 10:38 AM   #82
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Does what you find so obnoxious in the LRC outweigh friendships and Christian bonds?
I think you have touched on one of the most important question for me. Is it worth leaving? Because it would include leaving some friends, or at least some parts of our friendship. Yet, I need to leave because I need some friends who see things differently (spiritually). With all my friends in the LC, I still feel lonely because I cannot express my concerns regarding the teachings and leadership of the LC's. If you cannot speak the truth with friends, how much are they really your friends? Yet they are my friends. We are close in so many other ways, but not this (regarding the LC). And this is not because they have changed, but I have changed. See my dilemma? Feels uncomfortable to be in this state of mind.
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:53 AM   #83
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I think you have touched on one of the most important question for me. Is it worth leaving? Because it would include leaving some friends, or at least some parts of our friendship. Yet, I need to leave because I need some friends who see things differently (spiritually). With all my friends in the LC, I still feel lonely because I cannot express my concerns regarding the teachings and leadership of the LC's. If you cannot speak the truth with friends, how much are they really your friends? Yet they are my friends. We are close in so many other ways, but not this (regarding the LC).
There is a dilemma in some ways. You want to remain in good standing with them yet at the same time you don't want to be accused of trying to "poison" them. I wouldn't speak anything unsolicited. Perhaps they should need to inquire of you? Many brothers and sisters have left the local church fellowship, yet the questions are not asked why?

Personally I have family friends still in the local churhes and others who have left the local churches. Those who left, I didn't even know when it happened until I asked and why they left. Even more these family friends still remain friends with one another. That to me indicates their friendship is not predicated on fellowship with the local churches but on being fellow members of the Body.
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Old 04-29-2014, 02:18 PM   #84
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It's called cognitive dissonance<-click.
Good word! That's exactly how I feel.
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Old 04-29-2014, 02:36 PM   #85
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I think you have touched on one of the most important question for me. Is it worth leaving? Because it would include leaving some friends, or at least some parts of our friendship. Yet, I need to leave because I need some friends who see things differently (spiritually). With all my friends in the LC, I still feel lonely because I cannot express my concerns regarding the teachings and leadership of the LC's. If you cannot speak the truth with friends, how much are they really your friends? Yet they are my friends. We are close in so many other ways, but not this (regarding the LC). And this is not because they have changed, but I have changed. See my dilemma? Feels uncomfortable to be in this state of mind.
I encourage you to seek other friends, especially Christian friends. Perhaps some one in your life has the wisdom to counsel you with his friendship. Not every friend can be every thing you need. The body of Christ is far bigger than the LC's would have you believe. The exclusive teachings in the LRC instruct us to make "Christ and the church" our whole life. This is wrong. It is far better to have a wide diversity of healthy friends, both in and out of the LC. Please take it from me -- when it comes to personal and family counseling, the LRC fails dismally.
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:02 PM   #86
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]Not every friend can be every thing you need. The body of Christ is far bigger than the LC's would have you believe.
You are right. I should not feel guilty that I cannot speak with my LC friends in this matter (LC history, teachings, and practices). We have multiple friends. Each friend supports us and meets our need differently. I guess it is okay that my LC friends don't see the LC organization for what it is. It is just that sometimes I feel hypocritical around them. I "look" like I agree with and support the LCs when i really don't.
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:17 PM   #87
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I would say that the best thing to do is to leave quietly. Not necessarily without anyone noticing, but quietly. We did and got only one call. Rest of the family (dad, mom, brother and sister) never discussed it with us (until many years later).

What was happening, though, was that we were beginning to be sporadic in the meetings anyway, so when it became 4 in a row rather than only one or two, it went somewhat undetected. We had no knowledge of the things that would have driven me out more rapidly. But after these 8+ years on these forums, I think I would still have been best off to leave quietly.

Then if some really want to know and are willing to have that discussion, tell them that there are specific things that you have discovered that cannot be written-off as gossip, or whitewashed as "something in the past." Give no more details. Just find out if they are willing to talk further or just let it go.

If they want to go forward with a discussion, don't unload everything you've ever heard in a non-stop soliloquy. Guaranteed to drive them off or get their guard up.

While we sort of did a little of that about 19 years after leaving, I said nothing more for a couple of years, then began to throw out some of the things I had been reading in scripture that I just could not get to align with Lee's teachings. The whole "last Adam became" bit. Note that the passage in 1 Cor 3 about wood, hay, and stubble was not talking about the Corinthian believers, but the teachers (Paul, Peter, Apollos, etc.) that they were fighting over. Or something else like that. Or mention that John Ingalls was seriously slandered in a publication of the LSM that Lee claims to have checked out thoroughly before he wrote it. And that Philip Lee was caught on multiple occasions in various compromising situations with married sisters in his office, yet his father continued to keep him in charge of the LSM and even in a position to direct how local churches operated — at least to some extent. (And that the reason John I is gone was that he attempted to excommunicate Philip Lee over it.)

Pick one or two. Not everything. Not all at once. Don't get heated about it.

Don't throw the book at them.

But suggest that they try to actually read the verses that are being taught and see if they really say what Lee says they do.

And be honest that you feel that you are following the Lord in the matter and that this is more important than arguing about the problems that may or may not exist in the LRC.
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Old 04-29-2014, 04:23 PM   #88
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You are right. I should not feel guilty that I cannot speak with my LC friends in this matter (LC history, teachings, and practices). We have multiple friends. Each friend supports us and meets our need differently. I guess it is okay that my LC friends don't see the LC organization for what it is. It is just that sometimes I feel hypocritical around them. I "look" like I agree with and support the LCs when i really don't.
At some level, this is not a problem. But be careful not to imply that you agree with what you cannot agree with.

And there should be plenty at the individual level that we can agree with, as long as they don't want to start into those special doctrines of the LRC. You know the ones. Ground. Christianity is Babylon. The RCC is the Great Harlot. "God's Economy" means you ignore James and half of the Psalms, and dismiss the obvious meaning of any kind of verse that suggests you should be righteous and obedient. If they bring those up, I find nothing to do but to politely say that I cannot find that to be a rational understanding of the passage in question.
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Old 04-29-2014, 06:57 PM   #89
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I think you have touched on one of the most important question for me. Is it worth leaving? Because it would include leaving some friends, or at least some parts of our friendship. Yet, I need to leave because I need some friends who see things differently (spiritually). With all my friends in the LC, I still feel lonely because I cannot express my concerns regarding the teachings and leadership of the LC's. If you cannot speak the truth with friends, how much are they really your friends? Yet they are my friends. We are close in so many other ways, but not this (regarding the LC). And this is not because they have changed, but I have changed. See my dilemma? Feels uncomfortable to be in this state of mind.
I am still in the LC, and I have had the same questions you're having now. Luckily for me, there are some here that I can speak with, some that even share certain reservations (to put it nicely). I think this type people exists in almost every LC. Seek them out. Maybe you already know them.

If my family and I leave I know I won't lose any friends. My parents and siblings won't turn their backs on me though they'll most likely stay.

All the advice here is perfect for someone. It's up to you to choose which piece is perfect for you and your family. Prayer. That's the answer. That and what you're doing, reaching out to find others in a similar situation.

If the friends you have in the LC are really your friends and truly believers, they will understand...though maybe only eventually. Your moving on may encourage others to do the same. It may encourage others to question why they're there. You never know how other people are going to respond.
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Old 04-29-2014, 10:58 PM   #90
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Thank you all for your advice. It has been very helpful and much appreciated. It seems like leaving the LC quietly and slowly is the best way to go. I have already not been to Sunday morning meetings for more than a month now. No one has noticed only because I am in a situation that provides a really good excuse for not being able to meet. I think once I stop meeting altogether though, saints will start to notice and ask questions. At that time, I will need to let the Holy Spirit lead my speaking.


My three primary reasons for leaving:


Even though I disagree with some of the major practices and theologies in the Lord, that is not my reason for breaking the tie. And as much as I find the history of the LC disgusting, neither is that the cause for wanting to leave (since history is history).

1)
I sense that there is not much blessing from the Holy Spirit on the LC as a whole (I'm not talking about individuals in the LC). I need to be in a new place where I can receive new speaking and new revelation.
2) The LC is full of hypocrisy as an organization: the double standards trouble me tremendously.
3) I don't want my children to grow up in this kind of environment
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:39 PM   #91
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I think you have touched on one of the most important question for me. Is it worth leaving? Because it would include leaving some friends, or at least some parts of our friendship. Yet, I need to leave because I need some friends who see things differently (spiritually). With all my friends in the LC, I still feel lonely because I cannot express my concerns regarding the teachings and leadership of the LC's. If you cannot speak the truth with friends, how much are they really your friends? Yet they are my friends. We are close in so many other ways, but not this (regarding the LC). And this is not because they have changed, but I have changed. See my dilemma? Feels uncomfortable to be in this state of mind.
It’s hard for me to add something valuable after the brothers’ thoughtful and inspiring posts. But I will still share my opinion.

Truth, you have two choices: to follow Lee or Christ. If you want to follow Christ, it takes faith, courage, and sacrifice. Do you need to sacrifice your friendship? Well, maybe, IF your friends turn away from you. But then ask yourself, “Are they really my friends?” After all, who is more important for you: Christ or your friends? Who do you want to stick to?

If you care about your friends, you want them to know them the truth too. You want them to follow Christ, not blind teachers leading the blind. It’s your responsibility as a friend. When you leave the LC, it can be a starting point for them, in their spiritual journey from Lee to Christ. You can fellowship with your friends, give them some food for mind, and help them to realize the truth. It's your duty towards them. Be yourself. Be frank. Fight for your friends and fight for the truth. Stay/be their friend even if they forget your phone number. Do what you can for them and trust in the Lord.

As Christians, we must be always ready to appear before Christ. Therefore, we should live our lives as though Christ were coming the next minute. What if you see Christ in a moment? What will you tell Him? Have you kept your faith? Have you been faithful to Him, or someone or something else? Will you be able to explain the Lord all your pros and cons, or will your arguments suddenly mean nothing? Have you really valued Christ more than anything else?.. “Christ is not valued at all, unless He is valued above all.” (Augustine)

May the Lord grant you wisdom, courage, and strength. And may His peace be upon you.

Many blessings.
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Old 05-01-2014, 01:10 PM   #92
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Thank you all for your advice. It has been very helpful and much appreciated. It seems like leaving the LC quietly and slowly is the best way to go. I have already not been to Sunday morning meetings for more than a month now. No one has noticed only because I am in a situation that provides a really good excuse for not being able to meet. I think once I stop meeting altogether though, saints will start to notice and ask questions. At that time, I will need to let the Holy Spirit lead my speaking.


My three primary reasons for leaving:


Even though I disagree with some of the major practices and theologies in the Lord, that is not my reason for breaking the tie. And as much as I find the history of the LC disgusting, neither is that the cause for wanting to leave (since history is history).

1)
I sense that there is not much blessing from the Holy Spirit on the LC as a whole (I'm not talking about individuals in the LC). I need to be in a new place where I can receive new speaking and new revelation.
2) The LC is full of hypocrisy as an organization: the double standards trouble me tremendously.
3) I don't want my children to grow up in this kind of environment

Hi all,
Haven't been around in ages...but decided to play peek a boo w/y'all...
WoW... some interesting threads...and a handful of newcomers seeking to leave the LC bondage!!

Congrats to everyone wanting to leave and drumming up the courage to take steps in leaving.

Everyone here who is a former LCr is a JEWEL in Christ's Crown....especially AWARENESS !! He's the least religious of the bunch!!

The only addition I would like to make to this thread...is there is not much of God's LOVE left in the LC. As a WHOLE, No Love, No Anointing, No Blessing. But there are individual saints in the LC who ARE filled with God's Love, Anointing and are a blessing to others.

So while obeying is very good... it is mucho better when it is anointed with LOVE and GOD in US = LOVE for GOD is LOVE.

So much LOVE and Blessings to you guys! :-) (too bad there is not a heart smilie..so the SON smiling will have to do! I like that He's wearing shades...

Carol
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Old 05-02-2014, 04:19 AM   #93
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I will need to let the Holy Spirit lead my speaking.
It is easy to point out the splinter in the other person's eye. If you can see all that is wrong in the LC system, and you eagerly point that out to "help them", you may be missing a beam in your own.

So let God be the Judge of all. If the Holy Spirit guides your speaking it will be a blessing and not a curse to those who hear. Everyone will profit including yourself.

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My three primary reasons for leaving:

3) I don't want my children to grow up in this kind of environment
If you are not yet married obviously it would be better for you not to get further entangled in this system. Then your family will have to deal with the effects of your entanglement.

Keep your eyes on the Son of God. He will take you someplace marvelous. Never let go of your faith.
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Old 05-02-2014, 04:53 AM   #94
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1) [/B]I sense that there is not much blessing from the Holy Spirit on the LC as a whole (I'm not talking about individuals in the LC). I need to be in a new place where I can receive new speaking and new revelation.
2) The LC is full of hypocrisy as an organization: the double standards trouble me tremendously.
3) I don't want my children to grow up in this kind of environment
In my humble opinion, the problem with the LC is that it’s not a Christian church. It’s rather Witness Lee Study Group or Witness Lee’s Works Fan Club that practice some forms of worship. As a member of the “study group”, an average LCer lives a life in Lee and his writings, not a life in Christ. (When I say this, I am talking about myself and my spiritual life in the LC, too).

LCers neglect personal spirituality claiming that God doesn’t want spiritual giants. But they forget that Christian spirituality is life in Christ, in and with the Holy Spirit, a life of commitment to the Lord, and a complete submission to His will. Spiritual growth doesn’t mean submitting ourselves to the Lord’s Recovery Church and her doctrines. It means submitting ourselves to Christ. We don’t become spiritual or even so called “overcomers” because we go to the church. We become spiritual when we give more room to the Lord; when we struggle against our sins; when we perfect ourselves in Christ, by the cleansing of passions and the winning of the virtues; when we live a Christ-like life and acquire the Holy Spirit.

A true spiritual man has the energy of the Holy Spirit within. Living in Christ, he becomes a new man, regenerated by the grace of God. It is not an abstract, emotional and psychological state of being. It is man's union with God.

So the mystical union in Christian spirituality is not the "devout church life" but the communion of the person with God. In other words, the goal of spirituality is the perfection of the believer by his/her union with God in Christ. That's the difference between a Christian church and the “WL Bible Study Group.” In the LRC, spirituality means being in one accord, a union of a devout follower with the church and other saints first. Union with the Lord comes second. While true Christian spirituality is union with Christ, with God, first of all.

We can always spot a spiritual person because he purifies himself of all worldly and moral defects in order to be united with the love of Christ. As result, he possesses the fruit of the Holy Spirit. And "... the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23 I have not met many spiritual people in the LRC. Mostly -- sweet, sincere, and knowledgeable. But what about acquiring the Holy Spirit?

The LRC is lack of union with God. Therefore, they are lack of the Holy Spirit. I feel the same lack when I look at myself. Every time I have to drag myself to the LC prayer meetings on Tuesdays. To me, it's just a waste of time. I don't know about other localities, but in mine, it's a group of nice, sweet, and friendly saints who scream, shout, and chant for almost one hour. I agree with Carol who once called this practice a "vain repetition." God is omnipresent. He is here with us all the time. Why do we need to shout as if He is hiding a few blocks away? Why do we need to chant in such a strong voice and an imperious tone? That's not how we talk to our parents. So why do we talk to the Lord this way? The LRC is full of sweetness but lack of reverence. We don't pray reverently. We don't have reverence and humility when we worship God. But we are full of authority. We can't hear God's answers because we are more interested in our petitions. Our voice seems to be more important. We don't feel God's presence because it's not our aim. Yes, we want to “touch the Lord” but why screaming and shouting with an imperious tone? I don’t think it helps. The goal of prayer is not to submit Him our requests. God already knows all our needs. The true goal of prayer is to contact the Lord, "plug" us in Him, and have union with Him. Two or three years ago we studied a WL’s article about prayer of authority. You can find it here:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=BHZ31P8LEMS1E

WL: “All prayers in ascension are prayers of authority. We know that prayer in ascension is a command to God. Our prayer is not begging but commanding. You all remember that in Isaiah 45:11, God says, “Command ye me.” Sometimes this commanding is a direct command to God, and sometimes it is an indirect command to the environment.”

Witness Lee not only speaks mambo jumbo but twists the word of God, whether using an old translation or not being able to translate the Old Greek properly. In Isaiah 45:11, God never says, “Command ye me.” God says

“This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?

Check Isaiah 45:9

“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?

We are clay and God is our potter. So if the clay starts to give orders to the potter than it ends up with
Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
No Love, No Anointing, No Blessing.
...No Holy Spirit, and No man's union with God.

May the Lord have mercy on us.
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Old 05-02-2014, 06:49 AM   #95
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This verse in Isa 45:11 is obviously a rhetorical question. Within the last year I asked KR after a meeting what he thought of the verse. Off hand he couldn't remember the context. He said he would look it up and get back with me. He never did. With all due respect to Nee and Lee, this interpretation is about the craziest thing I ever heard out of their mouths. They both pass this word and it is obviously error.

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Old 05-02-2014, 07:29 AM   #96
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It is easy to point out the splinter in the other person's eye. If you can see all that is wrong in the LC system, and you eagerly point that out to "help them", you may be missing a beam in your own.
aron,

I know you don't mean this, but it would seem that you are throwing this out to stifle honest and righteous critique/commentary on the LRC and its errors. Yes, we need to examine ourselves before we point at the errors of others. But if there are errors to be pointed at, this was not given as a reason to refrain, just to be sure that you don't give them strawman arguments to pitchfork the argument back to you. And like it or not, as a species, humans are predisposed to strawman arguments when it takes the light off our own shortcomings and errors.
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