In need of advice

Hello Everyone,
I am so grateful to have stumbled across this forum. I feel like the Lord has been working in my life recently and I hope that the time for my family to leave the LC is coming soon.

I will try to be brief, but allow me to introduce myself and explain my circumstances. I have been attending the LC for a little over 12 years.My husband first brought me to a meeting before we were married. I was a young, care-free college student and loved the church life for the first couple years. We married and had our first child. At that point, motherhood opened my heart to deeper level of understanding and I began to be unhappy about many things in the LC.

At first I was afraid to express my concerns to my husband, but as the years passed I did eventually attempt to speak to him. I was always met with anger. Let me explain that my husband was born and raised in the LC. There is no question that these are his core beliefs. However, my husband is still to this day a so called backslider. He does not prophesy and does not care if we have perfect attendance to the meetings. This fact always gave me hope that one day, he might be open to leaving. More recently, he has been open to discussion, yet remains very defensive.

We have four children and my heart fears for them. I do not want them to continue to be raised in the LC. What I am hoping to find here at this forum are tools to help me speak to my husband.

Thank you all!

[UntoHim]

Unregistered Guest,

Thank you and bless you for having the courage to come post on our forum. One of the main reasons this forum exists is for brothers and sisters in like yourself to have a place to process, and to have fellowship with those who have gone through similar situations.

And speaking of sisters....this forum is in great need of sisters! Our discussions are in need of a women's experience and point of view! There are a number of sisters who frequent the forum, and I believe that some of them have found themselves in your position. There are also a number of brothers who have also gone through, or are currently in, similar situations.

When you get a chance, please shoot an email to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com requesting membership, including your desired UserName, and I will reply with a welcome email with a temporary password. As you may have noticed, most members post under an anonymous "handle" (UserName). Anonymity and confidentiality are very important aspects of our little forum.

Your brother who is unto Him

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What I am hoping to find here at this forum are tools to help me speak to my husband.

Thank you all!

The first tool I would offer is that God seeks engagement, and the enemy seeks estrangement. God wants to dialogue with your husband, but God's adversary wants to create a kind of antagonism, or a fight. So try to remember that if you want your husband to respect, acknowledge, and appreciate what you see, then you need to "go the extra mile" to meet him where he is. It is the proverbial "do unto others as you want them to do to you" scenario.

Jesus went out and found the sinners where they were. He didn't require them to go to Jerusalem or the holy mountain. You might be surprised how quickly the Lord can stir in your husband's heart if you meet him where he is.

What I am trying to say is that even if you totally disagree with your husband, try to communicate your present truth to him in a way that doesn't threaten him. The most precious truth your children can learn from you is that you love their father and are committed to going on together with him. Within that commitment you'll find the freedom to speak your mind. God has all power, and desires the light to shine. It will. So don't be threatened by your husband's reflexive beliefs, nor the group he's controlled by. God is greater than all.

And yours is a ministry of reconciliation, not estrangement.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The first tool I would offer is that God seeks engagement, and the enemy seeks estrangement. God wants to dialogue with your husband, but God's adversary wants to create a kind of antagonism, or a fight. So try to remember that if you want your husband to respect, acknowledge, and appreciate what you see, then you need to "go the extra mile" to meet him where he is. It is the proverbial "do unto others as you want them to do to you" scenario.

Jesus went out and found the sinners where they were. He didn't require them to go to Jerusalem or the holy mountain. You might be surprised how quickly the Lord can stir in your husband's heart if you meet him where he is.

What I am trying to say is that even if you totally disagree with your husband, try to communicate your present truth to him in a way that doesn't threaten him. The most precious truth your children can learn from you is that you love their father and are committed to going on together with him. Within that commitment you'll find the freedom to speak your mind. God has all power, and desires the light to shine. It will. So don't be threatened by your husband's reflexive beliefs, nor the group he's controlled by. God is greater than all.

And yours is a ministry of reconciliation, not estrangement.

Great insight, aron.

I Remember when I first got saved, my mom was so receptive because she saw a great change in my life, my attitude, etc. Then I joined the LC, and immediately went to the Revelations Training. Lee and company pumped me up with so much anti-Catholic ammunition that it spoiled my gospel of Jesus Christ the Savior. I threatened to smash idols and burn pictures.

The moral of the story is that we have Jesus and are now a people of hope. Our message is not that all others are wrong and the LC's alone are right, but that Jesus alone is our Lord, our center, our Savior.

Thank you Aron,

That is wonderful advice. I had come to a similar realization myself. I am working on communicating with my husband in a loving and respectful way. This is an area we struggle with in our marriage and I believe we have already come a long way.
I would like to mention that some recent circumstances in his family have arose that have deeply upset him. I feel like this may be an opportunity for me to minister to him. I can't help but feel a sense of urgency not to miss my window of opportunity but I know I must be careful not to rush it.

The circumstances in his family could either cause him to doubt his faith or to cling more strongly to it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I first got saved, my mom was receptive because she saw a great change in my life, my attitude, etc. Then I joined the LC, and immediately went to the Revelations Training. Lee and company pumped me up with so much anti-Catholic ammunition that it spoiled my gospel of Jesus Christ the Savior. I threatened to smash idols and burn pictures.

The moral of the story is that we have Jesus and are now a people of hope. Our message is not that all others are wrong and the LC's alone are right, but that Jesus alone is our Lord, our center, our Savior.

When I said, "We have a ministry of reconciliation" that wasn't generic advice, but I think a real "tool" to dialog with people entrenched in LC-like belief systems. At its core, the LC doctrine pushes estrangement and judgment. Even "recovery" presupposes degradation and darkness, which is (naturally) everyone else. Everyone else is divided, we are one, etc. We have high peak truths, everyone else is low, common, fallen etc. The very language is loaded with subjective and judgmental terms. And this divides people from one another.

I think one way to approach these strongholds is not to become alienated from the person who is espousing them. Meet them where they are. The Spirit of the Lord can break any barrier. Paul wrote extensively about this in his epistles. We get the opportunity to live it out.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I had come to a similar realization myself. I am working on communicating with my husband in a loving and respectful way. This is an area we struggle with in our marriage and I believe we have already come a long way.

Circumstances are temporary. The Spirit of the Lord is eternal. What an opportunity, to touch this in a real way, today! Your circumstances are God-arranged for you to find Him. As you do, you and those around you will be saved.

[New Beginnings]

This is the original poster now registered. I want to thank everyone for continuing to point me back to Christ. During my time stuck in the LC, I have struggled to grow in my relationship in The Lord. It is hard when you are alone. I have really closed my heart to the people at the LC for the sake of self preservation, although I believe they are good people simply misled.

Also, is there a way I can open the eyes of my husband to the contradictions in the LC in a nonjudgmental, loving way?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then I joined the LC, and immediately went to the Revelations Training.

Wow! What a place to start off.

I know someone (actually to this day) that had a breakdown over the Revelation training. They eventually returned to the "fold" for a brief period, but left altogether a couple of years after that. Has since been a leader in lay ministry at a significant church in the area.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Also, is there a way I can open the eyes of my husband to the contradictions in the LC in a nonjudgmental, loving way?

Personally, I needed many years of questions nagging at my heart. These were the discrepancies between what we were promised by the ministry and what actually was happening, in a word, all of the broken promises that had been accumulating for years. For example, watching scores of marriages crumble around me. How can I continue to blame all this on the devil? Where are all the promises of His rich blessings by our stand for "His testimony of oneness" in the LC's?

I know many of us in the Great Lakes Area (before we were quarantined, and about the time I left) found the instructions and practices for our families to be unhealthy. LSM talked about the "pipeline" which would usher our children into their FTTA and full-timer service. How has that turned out for those who went? How are they today? Did the FTTA really help their growth in Christ? Years ago the GLA leaders tried to obtain unbiased followup statistics, and LSM balked at that. Why?

New Beginnings, your children are younger, but your husband may still think LSM's programs are healthy for his kids. Every father wants his church to help his children's faith. How well are the older children in your LC doing? Has LC teachings prepared them for the world in high school and college? If the LC/LSM has not been good for the children in other families, how can you expect anything different for yours?

[New Beginnings]

Thank you for your insight Ohio,
We are in a very small locality. The handful of families with teenagers have stopped attending recently. There are a few young families like us with children. My husband has the tendency to blame the size of our locality for the lack of "shepherding" I received. He claims other localities are different/better. I visited enough of them to know better.

The fact that my husband is a chronic "backslider" makes it difficult. It seems he believes if he wasn't backsliding, all the riches blessings would be present in his life. Yet he has not taken the initiative to step up and "function."

[boughtbyJesus]

I have subscribed to this thread because I too am interested in how to help open the eyes of my husband in a non-judgmental and loving way. My husband has been re-connected with this cult for about 5 years now. My husband has always been a bit ornery, but in these past 5 years he has gotten so much worse. But he says that he always "comes to the blood." I'm not really sure what that means but I have reminded him that faith without works is dead.

With regard to FTTA, I came to realize that there is a brother in the church that my kids and I attend, SGCC, who grew up within this sect, attended FTTA after graduating from college and unfortunately, whose whole family is still immersed in the LC. When he and his wife were dating, she also attended some LC meetings but quickly realized something was not quite right. I don't yet know the whole story behind my brothers departure from the LC but with the holidays approaching, he did say that things were hard because he has two young children and his parents disapprove of their Christmas celebrations.

[New Beginnings]

Sorry to post so much. As I said before, I feel a sense of urgency. I feel like the Lord is arranging my circumstances perfectly each day.

I still serve with the children. In a small locality, there is a need for every parent and grandparent to serve with the children. I feel like this sense of obligation is a tie that needs to be severed. However, I hoped to make a decision to leave before I informed them I no longer wish to serve.

My husband rarely chooses to attend the meetings when I am not scheduled to serve.

Should I continue serving?

Thank you

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Thank you for your insight Ohio,
We are in a very small locality. The handful of families with teenagers have stopped attending recently. There are a few young families like us with children. My husband has the tendency to blame the size of our locality for the lack of "shepherding" I received. He claims other localities are different/better. I visited enough of them to know better.

The fact that my husband is a chronic "backslider" makes it difficult. It seems he believes if he wasn't backsliding, all the riches blessings would be present in his life. Yet he has not taken the initiative to step up and "function."

LSM has designed a program where all members are indoctrinated into believing they are not adequately consecrated. They never will be. There are not enough hours in the day to meet all their requirements. Members are forever chasing their elusive proverbial "carrot," and as soon as they take a break, their conscience condemns them as "backsliders." I lived in that state for decades. Those in big localities envied those in small, and vice versa, always thinking the "program" must be working somewhere else.

Being a backslider is not evidence that your husband is "bad," rather that is proof that the program is bad. Where is the rich supply they always boast about? In the early days of my salvation, I was amazed at how much the Lord did in my life compared to how little I was doing. After 30 years of slaving in the LC's, I was amazed at how little the Lord was doing in my life compared to all I was doing.

Your husband needs to realize that loving his wife, raising his children, and working to support them is what God called him too. The Lord wants to live through us in the very situation He has placed us in. What a shame that the LC's honor those who divorce for their cause. It really means a lot to a Christian man when his wife praises him for all the positive things he is and does. As they say, behind every good man is a great woman!

[aron]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

The fact that my husband is a chronic "backslider" makes it difficult. It seems he believes if he wasn't backsliding, all the riches blessings would be present in his life. Yet he has not taken the initiative to step up and "function."

1. There are many who are "backsliders" and who think that somehow in spite of the "rich ministry" they blew it. They can't function but it isn't the fault of the system but their fault. Somehow.

2. There are many who come and function but are dry. They can't get happy like in the old days when they were swimming in the spirit, but they think that if somehow they keep going through the LC motions the spirit will return.

3. There are many who are very active, former FTTA trainees, with wives and husbands and children and professional-level jobs, who wonder why the LC experience isn't even a pale shadow of its former self. They have heard all the stories of the Elden Hall days and the great migrations to take the cities of the earth. Then it all dried up. Why? Storms? Rebellions? Lukewarmness? It is always, again, the fault of the congregation, not the "high peak" theology or the "rich ministry".

All of these folks are waiting for something good to come along. All of them are captive by "strong-holds". Their minds have unquestioningly absorbed certain things which they hold as unassailable truth, which when questioned will fall apart like so many cobwebs.

The "rich ministry" got a hold because they used a lot of verses, compared to what people were used to. Maybe the average church-goer was exposed to, say, 3% or 5% of the text of the Bible in a year. Along comes the "minister of the age" and goes over maybe 7%. So it seemed to me, coming in from the outside, that I was snowed under with Bible verses. But I noticed eventually that there are a lot of verses they really aren't interested in, because they don't line up conveniently with LC dogma. So they are ignored.

I think this is a pretty good chunk, actually. Some of it is pretty basic stuff, like "remembering the poor, which very thing we were eager to do", (Gal 2:10) which neatly coincides with Jesus' work among the despised of Judah, Galilee, and Samaria.

What I am suggesting is that you "enjoy", publicly and loudly, some of these verses. Let the Holy Spirit breathe life into them. And receive the LC verses as well, because those are also God's words. Just hold the interpetations carefully. But enjoy.

And those 3 "classes" of people will be puzzled: where is the joy that this person has? Why is God speaking to her and not me, etc? The strongholds will crumble. Believe me, the gates of Hades cannot withstand the word of God dwelling in you richly. As you see the Shepherd emerge through the mists of time, as the Holy Spirit declares the things of the Son to you and the Son shows you the way home to the Father, the small light in you will burn intensely and those people will see it.

So forget about your situation, at least to some extent. Focus on the Son of God being revealed in the word of Scripture. It will happen. Seek and you will indeed find. And as you find, light will pour out of you and others will begin to stir, and turn, and consider. The strongholds will not stand.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I noticed eventually that there are a lot of verses they really aren't interested in, because they don't line up conveniently with LC dogma. So they are ignored...

p.s. If you "enjoy the spirit" in some of these verses, and do it publicly, the LC faithful will explain them away. "Oh, that is just such and such." WL already covered that. No big deal. You might do that ten times and they will explain it away with LC teachings ten times.

Then the eleventh time you "enjoy" some verse, and believe me there will be eleven times because God has a fountain, they will suddenly stop and stare.

What? Does the Bible say that?

Yes it does.

Oh, our 'apostle' never covered that.

Suddenly they will begin to stop and think, and the strong-holds will begin to shake...

[New Beginnings]

Aron, I appreciate your perspective and I believe it is wonderful advice. However, I cringe at the words "public and loudly." I have not spoken in a meeting in 10 years. I am not a confident person and am terrified of public shaming. I realize that The Lord can supply me with strength and confidence, but after all these years my faith is weak. I suppose I should start with strengthening myself through the word of God. Yet I cannot quiet the feeling of wanting to run away from the LC, quickly.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Aron, I appreciate your perspective and I believe it is wonderful advice. However, I cringe at the words "public and loudly." I have not spoken in a meeting in 10 years. I am not a confident person and am terrified of public shaming. I realize that The Lord can supply me with strength and confidence, but after all these years my faith is weak. I suppose I should start with strengthening myself through the word of God. Yet I cannot quiet the feeling of wanting to run away from the LC, quickly.

Dear sister,

I think it may be harder for you to leave the LSM LC than it was for me because I was the husband and my wife respected my feelings and leadership. But, I know that if she had turned to the so-called elders and asked for advice they would have told her to ignore me and stay faithful to the sect. Fortunately, the living of the elders prevented us from respecting them, so she did not trust their deceptive fellowship. I don't think you will ever convince your husband, but the faithful prayers of a loving wife might cause your husband to really see the deprived condition of the leadership in the LC. I don't know if you have the freedom to find a Christian sister outside of the LC sect that you could pray with, but that would be great. Don't push your husband, but do push the Lord to open the eyes of your husband to the real condition of the LSM LC.

[New Beginnings]

HERn,
I have in the past couple of years made some wonderful Christian friends. I have opened up to one of them and she is praying for me. In a few days I will be meeting another sweet friend who is a pastor's wife. I plan to seek her counsel and prayers. It took me many years to even feel confident to make friends out of the LC and years longer to feel comfortable opening up my heart to them. I always felt the LC was my dark secret, I feared people wouldn't understand and judge me for being in a cult.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

HERn,
I have in the past couple of years made some wonderful Christian friends. I have opened up to one of them and she is praying for me. In a few days I will be meeting another sweet friend who is a pastor's wife. I plan to seek her counsel and prayers. It took me many years to even feel confident to make friends out of the LC and years longer to feel comfortable opening up my heart to them. I always felt the LC was my dark secret, I feared people wouldn't understand and judge me for being in a cult.

That is so good. I think you and your family will be fine.

[New Beginnings]

Thank you HERn,
I needed to hear that. Now I'm going to take a deep breath and read my Bible. Thank you to everyone for hearing me today. It is a great comfort to me to have your support!

[aron]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I appreciate your perspective... However, I cringe at the words "public and loudly." I have not spoken in a meeting in 10 years. I am not a confident person and am terrified of public shaming. I realize that The Lord can supply me with strength and confidence, but after all these years my faith is weak..

When I said "public and loudly" I meant to speak to your children, and the Christian women you connect with, and others that the Lord gives you. I didn't mean at some church gathering. Sorry. I have a flair for overstatement.

When your husband comes in the door and you are speaking to the children of the wonders of God's love in Jesus Christ, as revealed to you by the scripture you've been reading, it will touch him within. He will hear, and receive. God's word is powerful.

Let me rephrase my argument. If you read the NT, you will notice that Jesus repeatedly said, "Do you not understand the scriptures?", or "Have you not read scriptures?", then quote something. Jesus was dealing with people with small minds and a small Bible, but Jesus told Satan that "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God" was good for human life and living. Jesus had a 'big Bible': the word was living, and real, and operative to Jesus, powerful enough that He believed that the promises of God could raise Him from the dead. And they did: see Peter's word in Acts 2:30, and Paul's word in Acts 13:35-37; both referenced Psalm 16's declaration of faith in God's promise. Jesus took this promise and walked through death with it. And He did it for us.

And look at Paul in Romans 1:1-3 "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh..." This "promise beforehand" through the prophets was a constant theme of the NT. But in the LC "God's Economy" template, if something doesn't fit, then it gets cut off (explained away, or called "low" or "natural", or simply ignored). God's promise through the prophets, concerning His Son Jesus Christ, was either shoehorned into Lee's hermeneutic, or abandoned.

But Lee's sleight-of-hand trick was to wave verses in the air, all with the confident "this equals that" verbiage. Yet if you begin to consider the Word outside of Lee's teaching, you will see it says many entirely different things, like remembering the poor, caring for the weak and the sick and the lonely, loving one another and loving God, etc. All these things were fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Then you'll begin to receive power to speak of a Christ whom you see, and the LC teachings won't be able to stand before you. Because you're equipped with the word. And your family will be infused with God's life.

Jesus wasn't trying to win a game of Trivial Pursuit with the Pharisees. He really lived by every word of God. And He used every word of God, and obeyed them in full and in depth, and thus fulfilled the promise spoken through the prophets. God doesn't want you to do it: God wants you to see Jesus doing it. Then the Spirit that shows you "this Jesus" (Acts 2:32) will give you the life of "this Jesus". In one very real sense, you don't have to do anything, just see. The very stones are crying out (Lu 19:40).

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I should start with strengthening myself through the word of God. Yet I cannot quiet the feeling of wanting to run away from the LC, quickly.

So you can run away from the LC, and quickly. The path is before you, open; it is in the word of God. Jesus was called the Word of God for a reason. He is before you, hoping to speak a word to you, and ultimately through you. And God has sovereignly arranged for people to speak to: husband, children, friends, family. You have everything you need. Just fix your spiritual eyes on one thing: Jesus Christ, the promise of God. He's waiting to have a conversation with you, in scripture. "My sheep hear My voice", etc.

For example, one day I realized that the word shows us Jesus' love for His Father in heaven, and His love for the people around Him: he "loved them to the uttermost" (Jo 13:1). Jesus fulfilled the command: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." Jesus did it. You want love? You want to love God? You want God's delight, love and favor? It is right in front of you, in the person of Jesus Christ, revealed over and over again in scripture. Once you get this simple fact, it will begin to spill out of you, into your world. Then watch it act. God's word is living and operative: it will act. Just find Jesus in the word. Find Him, and hold Him, and never let Him go.

Just pursue Him desperately in the word. Don't look to the right of left. Don't look back, don't look down. Just fix your eyes on Him, and a new world will open, "in Him." You'll hear His voice, and follow. Enjoy the ride.

[New Beginnings]

Thank you for clarifying Aron,
I understand what you are saying and feel much more optimistic. In many ways, I have been ministering to my children for years. My husband does hear and approves. Yet these basic, simple truths I teach my children seem to fit in to his understanding of the Word without contradiction in his mind.

I appreciate any verses you can point me to that more clearly expose the truth. I have no idea where to start having heard nothing but LSM for years. I imagine that as I reach out to the Christian women in my area, their encouragement will inspire me to dive into the Word and allow it to work more freely in my life.

Speaking to my husband has become so frustrating. He doesn't seem able at this point to even explain to me what he actually believes. I know he was taught from a young age not to think but instead to blindly follow. This blows my mind! I guess I never was truly brain washed by the LC myself. But how can I meet him where he is at and respect his beliefs if he can not even express them?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Speaking to my husband has become so frustrating. He doesn't seem able at this point to even explain to me what he actually believes. I know he was taught from a young age not to think but instead to blindly follow. This blows my mind! I guess I never was truly brain washed by the LC myself. But how can I meet him where he is at and respect his beliefs if he can not even express them?

Part of his upbringing was the indoctrination that all of Christianity is fallen, hopelessly degraded, and incurably divided. Lee regularly would go off on a rant about "poor, poor, Christianity." So it's not that the LC's were necessarily "perfect," but that everything else was far worse. Witness Lee liked to compare the best of the LC (like a testimony of some young brother spouting off Lee's doctrines) with the worst of Christianity. These are false comparisons. He should have compared outsiders' kids with his own fleshly and profligate sons, Philip and Timothy. That would have been fair.

For someone like your husband, who has never seen anything else outside the LC, and had this nonsense teaching ingrained by his own parents, it is a difficult stronghold to break thru. That's why it's so hard for your husband to explain his beliefs. He has been trained to condemn Christians whom he has never met, yet in his mind it is their "system" that is critiqued, and not the actual people. But that is a bogus argument. It's kind of like me saying that I love my wife, but hate the way she looks (), she talks(), she shops (), she thinks (), she drives (), she cooks (), and she kisses (). You get the point. How can we say that we love Christians outside the LC, when all we do is trash them, and never have anything nice to say about them.

So many dear believers in the LC's are just like your husband. I am one, and I know many more. They can't meet the endless standards inside the LC, and they dare not venture elsewhere. But your husband has you, and you have access to other Christians, and they are nothing like what he has been told. Perfect love casts out fear.

[New Beginnings]

Ohio,
I really appreciate your perspective in this conversation. Your experiences are so insightful. Thank you for sharing.

Speaking of my in-laws, they live in the same locality as us. This is challenging. My mother-in-law was the primary one shepherding me during my early years in the LC. She appeared to give up on me years ago. I don't really understand why. However, she knows that at this moment, things are happening in my life. She has asked to come over and have a "heart-to-heart" with me. I am quite apprehensive. I have never directly spoken negatively about the LC with her, nor to I wish to. I am sure I have said many things that don't uplift the LSM, but never directly negative.

I am not sure what to expect from her this time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Ohio,
I really appreciate your perspective in this conversation. Your experiences are so insightful. Thank you for sharing.

Speaking of my in-laws, they live in the same locality as us. This is challenging. My mother-in-law was the primary one shepherding me during my early years in the LC. She appeared to give up on me years ago. I don't really understand why. However, she knows that at this moment, things are happening in my life. She has asked to come over and have a "heart-to-heart" with me. I am quite apprehensive. I have never directly spoken negatively about the LC with her, nor to I wish to. I am sure I have said many things that don't uplift the LSM, but never directly negative.

I am not sure what to expect from her this time.

The Lord said, "be wise as serpents, harmless as doves."

Someone else said, "tact is making a point without making an enemy."

I'll pray for your visit.

[New Beginnings]

Thank you for your prayers Ohio,

I have to admit, tact is not my forte. I will try to be aware. My mother-in-law loves to inform me that I am perhaps too clever for my own good. But I just can't seem to bring myself to cut of my own head, so to speak.

[aron]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Thank you for your prayers Ohio,

I have to admit, tact is not my forte. I will try to be aware. My mother-in-law loves to inform me that I am perhaps too clever for my own good. But I just can't seem to bring myself to cut of my own head, so to speak.

At its core, the gospel message is extremely simple, and extremely powerful. God loves us so much, that He sent His only-begotten Son to us. God's love is so strong that Satan, the world, sin, the flesh, and the soul cannot stop His salvation. And it's all connected to a Name. And that Name is connected to a Person. "Nothing can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus..." etc (Rom 8:31-9)

The Spirit loves to reveal the things of the Son, and the Son loves to shepherd us home to the Father. The word declares, essentially, one thing - the Father's saving love in sending His Son.

So you can resist the very powerful and deeply-rooted program of your husband and mother-in-law with an even more simple and deeply-rooted and powerful program. The scriptures will be your aid, not as debating points but as vehicles for the Spirit that gives life. And you will see that you can speak the same simple truths to your infant children as to your mother-in-law, who may be a LC True Believer, as to your Christian friends, as to your struggling husband. (you may vary the delivery for the audience, but the message will be the same). "In this manner you not only save yourself but those who hear you." (1 Tim 4:16)

Don't try to out-think the situation. Just get simple, and get deep. Good luck and God bless.

(please don't mistake my confident-sounding assertions for reality. This is simply the way I write. I am a sinner like everyone else, trying to make it home to my Father in heaven).

What I'm trying to say is that all scripture essentially points to this one message. Get the message, and all the scripture is now your ally. The word is indeed living, breathing, and operative, and able to penetrate your husband, mother-in-law, Christian friends, children, everyone.

(again, please forgive my enthusiasm!)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Speaking to my husband has become so frustrating... I know he was taught from a young age not to think but instead to blindly follow.

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

My mother-in-law loves to inform me that I am perhaps too clever for my own good.

To me, these two statements are connected. In other words, "thinking is bad, and for your own good, you should stop." Apparently your husband heard these same manipulations throughout his youth.

[New Beginnings]

Aron,
No need to apologize for your enthusiasm. It is exactly what I need to hear. After 12 years stuck in what seem like a hopeless position, my faith was shaken but not lost. It is amazing to see the Lord working in my life right now. My hope has been renewed and you are pointing me in the perfect direction.
Thank you

[New Beginnings]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To me, these two statements are connected. In other words, "thinking is bad, and for your own good, you should stop." Apparently your husband heard these same manipulations throughout his youth.

Yes they are most definitely connected. Compounded by the fact that he was also home-schooled makes this even more frustrating.

To the two women who want to leave the LC, but are married to men who are committed to the program:

I'd like to recommend a book that has helped me and several people I know, called "The Power of Prayer to Change Your Marriage," by Stormie O'Martian. And it was a former LC member who recommended O'Martian's books to me. She also wrote "The Power of a Praying Wife," and other books on prayer.

You can look it up on Amazon, read the reviews, the table of contents, etc. I really recommend it. The book could be a way for you to pray for your husband consistently, but not focused on the LC. For example there are chapters on anger, communication breakdown, hardness of heart, financial issues, sexual issues, caring for children, chemical dependency, etc. There are prayers at the end of each chapter that are really excellent. Again, you can pray in a way that covers your whole marriage, and not just the LC issues. But of course the LC effects everything in your life, so there will be some overlap. I can testify that the prayers are effective. Most importantly, the prayers are a vehicle to deepen your relationship with the Lord, who knows exactly what you are going through, and who will shepherd you through it.

Another suggestion: find a Christian teacher on the radio or TV that you like, and listen to them consistently. Here are a few: Charles Stanley, Joyce Meyer, Tony Evans, Rick Warren, Philip De Courcy, Alistair Begg, June Hunt. There are many others, all with different styles and backgrounds. Find one who speaks to you. Then, prayerfully consider what you can share with your husband. Perhaps some insight into a verse, or some practical application of Biblical teaching to your daily life. There's a wealth of gifted teachers out there, and you can plant seeds in your husband when it's appropriate. You can gradually help him realize that the Lord is working in many places, through many members.

Grace to you in your difficult journey!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Thank you for clarifying Aron,
I understand what you are saying and feel much more optimistic. In many ways, I have been ministering to my children for years. My husband does hear and approves. Yet these basic, simple truths I teach my children seem to fit in to his understanding of the Word without contradiction in his mind.

I appreciate any verses you can point me to that more clearly expose the truth. I have no idea where to start having heard nothing but LSM for years. I imagine that as I reach out to the Christian women in my area, their encouragement will inspire me to dive into the Word and allow it to work more freely in my life.

Speaking to my husband has become so frustrating. He doesn't seem able at this point to even explain to me what he actually believes. I know he was taught from a young age not to think but instead to blindly follow. This blows my mind! I guess I never was truly brain washed by the LC myself. But how can I meet him where he is at and respect his beliefs if he can not even express them?

Hi dear sister,

It is very common for men to not know how to express themselves, at least it was for me. There was a long time in my married life when I had no capacity to put my feelings into thoughts or words. It was a miserable time for me.

[New Beginnings]

Thank you for this reminder HERn,
Yes I know that it is terriblely hard for my husband to express his emotions. I know that he is miserable. My heart breaks for him. I will try to be more patient with him.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apparently your husband heard these same manipulations throughout his youth.

Absolutely. LC children are programmed from a very young age. If you point out that the teachings are inconsistent, or not aligned with the Bible, they'll just reflexively say that you're being negative or judgmental or you've been poisoned. They'll refuse to critically think about their belief system.

And if you are resolutely "positive" and point out the wonderful Christ in scripture, they'll automatically respond that Witness Lee already showed them that, or if not, they'll explain it away with "it's not God's economy" or "it doesn't build up the Body" or some such.

What to do? My suggestion is to keep presenting them with Jesus Christ as revealed in God's word. Don't judge and don't argue. Just stay resolutely positive and living. Eventually a positive word from God will hit them, which is outside LC doctrine. The LC program will begin to lose its grip on their thinking.

This has happened: people who are hard-core, FTTA graduates, suddenly start critically examining the message from Anaheim, or the 'glorious church life' experience. Deep inside they knew something was missing... suddenly God gives them words and they speak. Amazing. "The deaf hear, the blind see, the mute speak, the lame walk." Jesus can do all things. (Luke 7:22; Matt 11:4).

[New Beginnings]

Brothers,
Thank you for all your encouragement today. I have to testify to you that I was able to speak Christ to my husband tonight. It was short but amazingly sweet and I know he received it.
Aron, I finally realize that what you meant in your original post about meeting my husband where he is at.

[New Beginnings]

Originally Posted by ex-lc member

To the two women who want to leave the LC, but are married to men who are committed to the program:

I'd like to recommend a book that has helped me and several people I know, called "The Power of Prayer to Change Your Marriage," by Stormie O'Martian. And it was a former LC member who recommended O'Martian's books to me. She also wrote "The Power of a Praying Wife," and other books on prayer.

You can look it up on Amazon, read the reviews, the table of contents, etc. I really recommend it. The book could be a way for you to pray for your husband consistently, but not focused on the LC. For example there are chapters on anger, communication breakdown, hardness of heart, financial issues, sexual issues, caring for children, chemical dependency, etc. There are prayers at the end of each chapter that are really excellent. Again, you can pray in a way that covers your whole marriage, and not just the LC issues. But of course the LC effects everything in your life, so there will be some overlap. I can testify that the prayers are effective. Most importantly, the prayers are a vehicle to deepen your relationship with the Lord, who knows exactly what you are going through, and who will shepherd you through it.

Another suggestion: find a Christian teacher on the radio or TV that you like, and listen to them consistently. Here are a few: Charles Stanley, Joyce Meyer, Tony Evans, Rick Warren, Philip De Courcy, Alistair Begg, June Hunt. There are many others, all with different styles and backgrounds. Find one who speaks to you. Then, prayerfully consider what you can share with your husband. Perhaps some insight into a verse, or some practical application of Biblical teaching to your daily life. There's a wealth of gifted teachers out there, and you can plant seeds in your husband when it's appropriate. You can gradually help him realize that the Lord is working in many places, through many members.

Grace to you in your difficult journey!

Thank you for your recommendations. I think these will be very helpful. I have to admit our marriage is a mess in nearly all areas. I know that these issues are all interconnected. It may be a bit unrealistic of me to hope that when the Lord does touch his heart and opens his mind, all these problems will simultaneously begin to heal. Learning how to pray for my marriage would be a valuable tool.

I hesitate to ask this, but objectively speaking, is there every a point where giving up on a marriage would be the right choice? This is certainly not my state of mind at the moment, nor am I likely to make rash decisions in an emotional state. I am incredibly committed to my husband. But that commitment makes it hard for me to see objectively.

Thank you

[NewManLiving]

After a few long, hard years of trying to make everything "better" or hopefully "go-away" and at times I even tried "running away", by the Lord's mercy I was brought to a point of absolute surrender to Him, offering myself as a living sacrifice for His glory. I am assured that this was not of my own doing as I am of the nature to question and reason everything and anything while remaining exceedingly doubtful. Letting everything go and trusting in the Lord completely, come what may was NOT in my constitution.
But by His great mercy He gave me a love for Himself that went beyond myself and a desire to do His will knowing that all things work together for good those that love God. But therein lies the caveat "love God". How much do we really love God and love to do His will? Even though His will may be sometimes bitter and even painful. We have to seriously ask ourselves how much we really love ourselves in relation to an absolute surrender to God? As the apostle wisely said
"For all seek their own things and not the things of Christ Jesus".
There is nothing more valuable than a close relationship with our merciful Savior who desires our fellowship with Himself. Unfortunately we are not naturally built this way and often look outwardly at the grim situations and unhappy feelings that really do exist, instead of turning inwardly to Him and desiring that His will and only His will be done, trusting in Him alone and accepting the cross that He brings as a blessing instead of a curse. This is a most difficult thing to do and if we are truly desirous of God He will certainly lead us into this relationship.
My only advice to anyone is to Love the Lord with "all" your heart and maintain a very close relationship with Him on a daily basis, trusting in Him alone knowing that He is concerned for us. For it is God who operates in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I hesitate to ask this, but objectively speaking, is there every a point where giving up on a marriage would be the right choice? This is certainly not my state of mind at the moment, nor am I likely to make rash decisions in an emotional state. I am incredibly committed to my husband. But that commitment makes it hard for me to see objectively.

Thank you

My view is never. We are a people of hope. All things work together for our good. Please memorize my signature line below.

Also ... another personal opinion of mine ... that often runs contrary to others here ... do not use the word cult when referring to the LC. To me it never helps. The LC is an abusive sect, a denomination with a controlling headquarters. The C-word is just too inflammatory.

[New Beginnings]

Ohio,
I have been living by your motto these past few days. Thank you for the reminder.
I also do not care for the C-word. I know that I have used it here in this thread. I was hoping to explain why it took my so long to reach out to other Christians. I really felt that they would judge me for being foolish enough to fall victim to an abusive group. Honestly, this is how I judged myself for years which clearly was not helpful at all.
I realize now that the Lord has used my experience with the LC to gain my heart. This was hard for me to see. I do believe the Lord has a unique purpose for me and that all my circumstances are part of his perfect plan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I also do not care for the C-word. I know that I have used it here in this thread. I was hoping to explain why it took my so long to reach out to other Christians. I really felt that they would judge me for being foolish enough to fall victim to an abusive group. Honestly, this is how I judged myself for years which clearly was not helpful at all.

I only mentioned that because this site can be somewhat caustic at times, citing only the negative, and forgetting everything positive.

You should never feel foolish. If you took the time to hear all of my screw ups in life, you would probably consider yourself among the most prudent of all.

[New Beginnings]

I have one more question for the day before I go devote my full attention on my family. I have to go to a LC meeting tomorrow. I am fearful. Could any of you share some practical wisdom on how to best stay strong for The Lord while experiencing manipulative attacks from the LC members?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I have one more question for the day before I go devote my full attention on my family. I have to go to a LC meeting tomorrow. I am fearful. Could any of you share some practical wisdom on how to best stay strong for The Lord while experiencing manipulative attacks from the LC members?

What kind of attacks? Do you mean snide comments like, "haven't seen you in a while."

[New Beginnings]

Ohio,
An example would be a brother saying, "It is offensive to the Lord when you don't speak in a meeting" and "Don't you want to love the Lord sister?" These things spoken publicly. Although I know these are not truths, I find it emotional exhausting to endure.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Ohio,
An example would be a brother saying, "It is offensive to the Lord when you don't speak in a meeting" and "Don't you want to love the Lord sister?" These things spoken publicly. Although I know these are not truths, I find it emotional exhausting to endure.

Yikes, that's nasty.

No. That's way worse than nasty.

You could stand up in the meeting and announce to all that the Lord has "really touched me lately about leaders who are evil shepherds," and then proceed to read those O.T. scriptures about how God will judge rotten shepherds who "lord it over the flock." Something like, "Weep and wail, you shepherds; roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock. For your time to be slaughtered has come; you will fall like the best of the rams." (Jeremiah 25.34)

Seriously though, I am a little too sarcastic at times. I better pray more before suggesting you actually do that. Perhaps others on the forum have a more gracious word for you.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Ohio,
An example would be a brother saying, "It is offensive to the Lord when you don't speak in a meeting" and "Don't you want to love the Lord sister?" These things spoken publicly. Although I know these are not truths, I find it emotional exhausting to endure.

Wow, that seems very controlling to me. I think they are being bullies to single out a suffering sister that way. Maybe your husband could stand up for you? If you have the capacity you could inwardly turn to the Lord in prayer while being confronted and give your real answer to Him silently? Or if you cry they might feel sorry and leave you alone? I can't remember if your husband attends the meetings, if he does you can ask the Lord to make him see your suffering. If he stays home you could share your feelings with him?

The Lord cares for you, but you still may suffer for awhile. I hope you can get some comfort from your non-LC Christian sisters?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps others on the forum have a more gracious word for you.

I'll try. The mind control program in the LC can be very oppressive. But let's switch gears, here, and not focus on the problem but the solution.

At first glance, a sheep has no business being alive. To a wolf or a bear or a lion, a sheep is just a peice of tasty meat with a little white wool around it. An inviting snack. The sheep has no nasty sharp claws or teeth, can't run 60 mph like a gazelle; is just sitting there ready to eat.

But the sheep has a defense system: first off it has the flock. Everyone gather around, horns out. Weak ones inside. That is the church. LC wants to isolate you from the flock. No - you are connected. God will provide. Others on this forum have offered details.

Second, there is the word. The Shepherd Himself is the living word in our hearts, guiding us. "My sheep hear My voice." Let Jesus talk to you through His Word. "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly... let Christ make His home in your hearts... etc". It is real. Through the word you have access to the Shepherd, and you will exclaim, "Thy rod and Thy staff, they do indeed comfort me!" The wolf and the bear cannot get at you.

Third you have the Spirit. See #2 above. Nearly synonymous, or even so. But still worth mentioning. "The Angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear Him". Look it up: it is real.

Lastly, and very very important, the sheep can climb the high rocks, and live with the doves. Sunshine and grass abound. The wolf and the bear can't climb like you can. This is the "secret chamber" that you and the Father know about. Jesus will lead you there. No one can touch you.

-------------------------

Now, for the other side of the thing, the LC program has a very good defensive system: "Don't be negative." Doesn't matter if they are negative against "poor Christianity" or even their own members. Don't question the program. Always be positive.

So my solution is this. Present them with unyielding positivity on your part. God is good. God is wise. God is kind. God loves us. They won't deny any of this.

Then you can (carefully, of course) bring them the "big Bible" of Jesus. Not the small LC Bible. For instance, have you ever noticed that Paul and the rest of the church was eager to remember the poor? (Gal 2:10) Not just the "good building material" on the nearby college campus?

Or, that Jesus "went around doing good", according to Peter? (Acts 10:38). The LC despise good works; only "building the Body" is acceptable to them, which means recruiting the aforementioned "good building material" from the college campus. But they can't deny that Jesus went around doing good.

These words will save you, and those who hear. Don't be afraid to share what you enjoy. God will protect you. Peace & God bless.

[New Beginnings]

HERn,
My Husband does attend the meetings when I do and occasionally of his own accord. He certainly sees my suffering but expresses the attitude that I shouldn't be so bothered. He doesn't necessarily condone their behavior but claims that there are just certain ones that get carried away. We are in a very small locality. There are really only 4-6 leading brothers.

Many years ago, I experienced so much anxiety about attending meetings that one Sunday morning I severely panicked. This is not something I am prone to experiencing. My husband told me that the devil was trying to keep me from attending the meeting. I have to say that telling your wife she is possessed does nothing but create more panic.

The only reason I am even going to the meetings at all is because I am on the serving schedule, it is only out of obligation. My husband may be willing to stop going if I do, for a little while anyway, until his mom twists his arm.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I have really closed my heart to the people at the LC for the sake of self preservation, although I believe they are good people simply misled.

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

My husband has the tendency to blame the size of our locality for the lack of "shepherding" I received.

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I have not spoken in a meeting in 10 years. I am not a confident person and am terrified of public shaming.

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I have to go to a LC meeting tomorrow. I am fearful. Could any of you share some practical wisdom on how to best stay strong for The Lord while experiencing manipulative attacks from the LC members?

I'm trying to get a better picture of your plight from the above quotes. I seriously doubt any brother (or sister) in your place is mature enough to help you. This explains why your husband won't go either.

On the one hand, I feel for these people. They have subscribed to a lifeless program which places huge demands on them. They are forbidden to seek outside help. All they can do is spout doctrines to one another to fill the meeting time. Then they have to fake their joy to keep the program going. They dread going, and then are relieved to go home.

Unless your husband can protect you from others, I question the decision to go. Legalistic folks have an answer for everything, and since you are vulnerable, anything you say will make it worse. How can you be expected to speak in meetings when your husband can't?

[New Beginnings]

This is a bit exposing.

Why is it that some people have to find themselves in utter weakness, hopelessness and fear before they can allow Jesus to come in and lift them up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

This is a bit exposing.

Why is it that some people have to find themselves in utter weakness, hopelessness and fear before they can allow Jesus to come in and lift them up.

We are all like that. Don't think you are so special.

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

This is a bit exposing.

Why is it that some people have to find themselves in utter weakness, hopelessness and fear before they can allow Jesus to come in and lift them up.

Dear New Beginnings:

Goodness. Isn't this the most perfect critique of any Christian who desires to do or be more for his/her Lord?

We're all fine when we aren't at our own "low." It because easy to forget our need for our savior - we're "co-workers" for God's economy or preaching the gospel to our wanting co-workers or, or, or, or...

Its not just "some people" - its all of us. Those who find and thrive in "Jesus" before that, just haven't confronted their deep need for their Savior yet. Before that realization in utter weakness, you may find and believe in Jesus, but if that utter fallen need for a savior isn't there, the belief will fall short when it runs into theology.

We just broken, period. Myself, my friends, my brothers and my sisters.

When our theology extends beyond "our desparate need for a savior," then we've lost already.

But IF we begin there, with our deep deep need for our savior - our visceral need to confront our crushing lack - THEN begins a theology of hope, true aspiration. But there's no aspiration unless it begins there.

In Love,

Peter

[aron]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

When our theology extends beyond "our desparate need for a savior," then we've lost already.

But IF we begin there, with our deep deep need for our savior - our visceral need to confront our crushing lack - THEN begins a theology of hope, true aspiration. But there's no aspiration unless it begins there.

While we yet live in the flesh, we would be wise to continually circle back to these kind of thoughts. God's enemy lifted himself up beyond his station, and "fell like lighning from heaven" according to Jesus' description. (Luke 10:18)

God's enemy continually tries to get us to move beyond our portion, in Christ.

Look at what happened to the serving angels - perhaps even 1/3 of them, if we take John's account seriously (Rev 12:4). Jude 1:6 says they went "beyond their positions of authority" (NIV). We should never go beyond our position, alloted by the Father's hand.

But in every position, no matter how low and weak and abased, we see the shining hope of Jesus Christ before us, beckoning us home to our Father.

I've been a bit embarrassed here, frankly, to offer blithe advice to someone in NB's straits, like an online Christian "Dear Abby".

"Just be positive; be happy; everything will be fine."

But I can't help myself but to hold out words of hope, because I believe they do apply to all people, at all time. The particulars of my advice here may not be relevant, or even helpful. But the hope behind it, I believe, is real.

[aron]

p.s. One last word of advice, regarding "meeting them where they are" - and this came from Watchman Nee, actually - if you have a problem with someone, and they are maybe 99% wrong and you are only (so you think) 1% in the wrong, you should apologize for the 1%.

This has helped me enormously over the years. It is entirely practical. If others see you taking responsibility for your imperfections, then it opens the door for them to take responsibility for theirs. You are modeling right behavior in front of them, and this gives them opportunity to do likewise. It is very effective.

[New Beginnings]

Hello,

Although I have not yet attended the LC meeting, I wanted to let you know that I feel so full of hope in Christ this morning. I do not feel vulnerable. I will be going to the meeting to serve but I feel very safe.

I had a wonderful conversation with my husband this morning. He appears to be open to following me towards Christ. I have to admit that I have some doubt of the honesty of his words. However, I am going to take them as they were and have hope.

Thank you everyone for all your support!

[New Beginnings]

So I don't really have any more questions for you and don't believe that you have anymore answers for me that you haven't already given.

Everything you have said thus far is incredibly valuable. But it is a hard pill to swallow for someone in my position. It is stuck in my throat at the moment.

I came here seeking knowledge, hoping to equip myself with the tools to reason my way out of my circumstances. I keep cycling back to this way of thinking. I can't let go of this idea that if I present my objective truth to my husband and relate it to his own experiences, then I can change his perspective. Isn't objectivity neutral...without positive or negative. Or does objective truth simply not exist?

Sorry to be so hard-headed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I came here seeking knowledge

Seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness, and everything else will be added to you. That's just the way it works. Your journey comes first, then your husbands'.

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I can't let go of this idea that if I present my objective truth to my husband and relate it to his own experiences, then I can change his perspective. Isn't objectivity neutral...without positive or negative. Or does objective truth simply not exist?

Sorry to be so hard-headed.

The hard, cold objective truth is that your husband is in the grips of a deeply-rooted and highly-resistant pathological program. It has set up shop in his soul (psuche, person, consciousness, etc), and certainly doesn't want to go! Surely you can see that! Even without the reinforcing mechanisms of family and childhood friends, your husband is programmed to keep circling back to the only world he knows.

You can and will present him with an alternative reality, the one that you see "in Christ", but you will have to be patient. If you are frantic it will go slowly if at all. If you are patient and slow, and careful (the proverbial "wise as a serpent and guileless [gentle, innocent, pure] like a dove") God will move quickly. The choice is yours. You control the speed.

Peace and God bless.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Seek first the kingdom of God...

In retrospect, this wasn't very helpful (though I think it's true). You need practical advice. How to break the spell?

My advice: Google "schizophrenia" and "double bind" and you will see the solution. The LC mindset is much like schizophrenia, where the subject accepts contradictory statements as true. They cannot see a way out of both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the LC dogma, which to them are synonymous. So you create a "double bind" and the inherent tension of that will allow them to break free.

The reason the LC program is resistant to treatment, as I said earlier, is that it contains its own "poison pill" - don't be negative, don't question, don't criticize the "brothers". So how to get them to see the illogic of their position? Use what I call "the big Bible" - the one that has verses that they don't use. I was physically out of the LC for about 4 or 5 years and I still would say, "That is not God's economy" whenever I heard a teaching that was different. Even if it was true; even if it was from the Bible; "that's not God's economy". So you're dealing with a very stubborn thought-system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

[New Beginnings]

Thank you Aron for your persistence. This really makes sense to me, I promise.

When I was a kid, I was confirmed in a Lutheran church. My pastor presented each of us with a framed verse. Mine was "Trust in The Lord with all your heart and lean not on your understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight." You would think after 16 years of seeing this verse everyday displayed in my home, it finally sink in.

I suppose I'm still just a stubborn and willfull child. The Lord will gain me though and perhaps He will use my stubbornness for His will.

Thank you again
I'm sure I will feel better after I meet with my friend who is a pastor's wife. We had to postpone due to the dumping of snow we had yesterday.

I read your posts and got thinking about you, and your situation, and what you said (posts). And one day, while I was thinking about your situation and couldn't come up with a 'solution', the Lord rebuked me. I was only 'thinking and thinking ...' . I did't pray for you. For then on I pray for you.
I am an older (by age) sister (in Christ).
God bless us.

[UntoHim]

New Beginnings,

Thank you so much for your participation on the forum!

May I suggest a book that was written by a sister who was a longtime former Local Church member by the name of Jane Carole Anderson. The title of the book is "The Thread of Gold: God's Purpose, the Cross and Me"

From the website: http://www.thethreadofgold.com/index.html
"This book, The Thread of Gold: God's Purpose, the Cross, and Me, tells the true story of Jane Carole Anderson’s twenty-year journey through the Local Church of Witness Lee. It reveals her discovery of the powerful and practical message of the cross, one that saved her from deception and revealed God’s purpose for her life."

I have read this book and believe it would be of immense help to a sister in your current position. It is available in Kindle form at the Amazon store. Even if you don't have a Kindle reader you can easily download the Kindle app for Windows or Apple and read it on your computer, tablet or iPad. The Kindle version is only listed at $4.99. - download here: The Thread of Gold

Again, thank you so much for registering and participating on our little forum. Please be assured that there are a number of other brothers and sisters out there who are being helped by your postings.

Your brother who is unto Him.
-

[New Beginnings]

Originally Posted by aron

In retrospect, this wasn't very helpful (though I think it's true). You need practical advice. How to break the spell?

My advice: Google "schizophrenia" and "double bind" and you will see the solution. The LC mindset is much like schizophrenia, where the subject accepts contradictory statements as true. They cannot see a way out of both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the LC dogma, which to them are synonymous. So you create a "double bind" and the inherent tension of that will allow them to break free.

Yes, this is exactly what I came here looking for.

However, the encouragement I have received here from all of you has been absolutely priceless! I have a long road ahead of me and it may get worse before it gets better. I will need to completely lean on the Lord.

Thank you for all your prayers and encouragement!

[New Beginnings]

Originally Posted by aron

In retrospect, this wasn't very helpful (though I think it's true). You need practical advice. How to break the spell?

My advice: Google "schizophrenia" and "double bind" and you will see the solution. The LC mindset is much like schizophrenia, where the subject accepts contradictory statements as true. They cannot see a way out of both the gospel of Jesus Christ and the LC dogma, which to them are synonymous. So you create a "double bind" and the inherent tension of that will allow them to break free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

Thank you, thank you Aron,

This is extremely helpful! I am still trying to wrap my brain around some of this but I am beginning to understand the big picture more clearly.

I needed to see the big picture. This summer I spent some time reading some classic literature. I homeschool my children and decided in order to give them the education they deserve, I'd better continue my own education. The very last book I read was one of the more famous negative utopias. As I was reading this, I was looking at it purely in political context. Frankly, it was a terribly depressing book. However, it laid a wonderful foundation in my mind to understanding the big picture.

I hope you can understand my motivation in this process. I am not attempting to argue or debate with my husband. I am not doing this to be "right" and him "wrong." I am not just a sad suffering sister trying to run away from my circumstances. My motivation is pure love for my husband and my children. I want to save them, I want the Lord to save them through me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I suppose I'm still just a stubborn and willful child. The Lord will gain me though and perhaps He will use my stubbornness for His will.

Nothing you have posted here indicates this about you.

Perhaps the LC folks have convinced you of this as part of their manipulation, kind of like saying "you are too clever for your own good," whenever you are simply attempting to follow the Lord and care for your own family.

.........................................

Here is a personal testimony of mine which helped to liberate my mind from LC manipulations. For decades I was taught that we "cannot separate Christ and the church." Lee used this phrase all the time. This was loosely based on Paul's own conversion when Jesus said to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me." (Acts 9.4)

Right after leaving the LC, one Sunday my wife and I were at the nearby community church, and at some point the minister said, "Christ is first, then our family, then our work, then the church." Lights finally went off in my head. I dwelt on this phrase for perhaps months, as if emerging from a dense fog.

It slowly dawned on me how clouded my thinking had become. In a nutshell, when we place "Christ and the church" first in our hearts, we end up with neither Christ nor our family. Think about it. Endless hours of serving the church replaces our personal relationship with Jesus, and we are convinced that we are doing what God is pleased with. These same endless hours of serving the church replaces our family, and we are convinced that God will take care of them.

Something that sounded so good ended up destroying what we loved the most, but our conscience was bribed by Lee that "all was well."

[aron]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Thank you, thank you Aron,

This is extremely helpful! I am still trying to wrap my brain around some of this but I am beginning to understand the big picture more clearly.

I needed to see the big picture. This summer I spent some time reading some classic literature. I homeschool my children and decided in order to give them the education they deserve, I'd better continue my own education. The very last book I read was one of the more famous negative utopias. As I was reading this, I was looking at it purely in political context. Frankly, it was a terribly depressing book. However, it laid a wonderful foundation in my mind to understanding the big picture.

Glad to be of some small service. And the Lord has many more small Christians such as myself waiting to help you, if you just stir yourself and make a few feeble efforts to go forward. God is quite willing, and able.

The LC is in many ways a "negative utopia". I say this because it promises its adherents utopia ("Glorious church life/feasting on such a rich store") but it is imperfect like all the rest. And its attempts to hide its imperfections make it worse and worse. Ultimately it becomes a dystopia. Like North Korea, where you can get executed for not clapping loudly enough when the Great Man speaks. I kid you not. If you aren't "positive" enough, you get noted, and watched. In the LC, thinking is the first terrible step to independence, and - gasp - rebellion!

But you already know that.

The key, in my book, is to relax, trust in God, fight the good fight behind closed doors, in the secret place with your Father in heaven. Outwardly, just be calm and trust God. Smile and praise God. (See e.g. Matt 6:5; 6:16) Your children need to see a happy mother who is peaceful and calm, who receives with simple faith what God has given her.

If that seems like a tall order, given your present circumstances, remember that the Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead can do all things. It is God's glory to provide proof of the resurrection power of Jesus' name in such a trifling vessel such as yourself, and me and all the rest of us.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but I wanted to add that if you converse with God, with whatever tools at your disposal (prayer, song, meditation, helping others, listening to Christian fellowship, and the Bible [most of all the Bible]), God will indeed show you the big picture, as it pertains to you. Only God can show you this. We see the fallacy of the Great Man theory, where every generation "God raised up Brother X to lead us to glory". No. Only God can show you your purpose. Witness Lee failed to give your husband his true purpose, and I'm not going to make the same mistake.

Originally Posted by Ohio

It slowly dawned on me how clouded my thinking had become.

The LC manifesto is "get out of your mind", i.e. don't think. The dense fog that enshrouds the LC members' brains is a noxious vapor from the pit of hell. I was there. It took me years, post-LC, to begin to think again. I still do a terrible job of it, and my living is equally poor, but at least I'm trying. God gave me a brain and God's throne isn't shaken when I attempt to use it. But the LC "glorious church life" is shaken whenever its members think. Why is that?

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I hope you can understand my motivation in this process. I am not attempting to argue or debate with my husband. I am not doing this to be "right" and him "wrong." I am not just a sad suffering sister trying to run away from my circumstances. My motivation is pure love for my husband and my children. I want to save them, I want the Lord to save them through me.

I would argue that your motivation is but a pale shadow of God's. The responsibility here rests on God, not on you. Don't try to shoulder the burden, rather by faith simply accept that this is all on God. Jesus Christ won the victory. Your job is merely to follow. Never take your eyes off the prize. If you focus on Jesus Christ as the personification of God's love and care for you, your family, husband, etc etc will come along just fine.

Peace & God bless.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I hope you can understand my motivation in this process. I am not attempting to argue or debate with my husband. I am not doing this to be "right" and him "wrong." I am not just a sad suffering sister trying to run away from my circumstances. My motivation is pure love for my husband and my children. I want to save them, I want the Lord to save them through me.

Dear sister, I think your feelings match the Lord's feelings. I hope He answers your prayers.