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Old 03-06-2019, 06:04 PM   #1
HERn
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Default Affirmation & Critique of Ministry Samples from "Witness Wednesday"

March 6, 2019

"Before those thirty-three and a half years, He was only divine, not human. But after those thirty-three and a half years, He became both divine and human. In other words, before that process He was only God, not man. But after that process, He became both God and man. Thus, some particular element was added into Him, and that particular element was humanity."

I think this writing from WL can be given a 100% affirmation, but what about the word "process"?
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Old 03-06-2019, 08:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: Affirmation & Critique of Ministry Samples from "Witness Wednesday"

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Originally Posted by HERn View Post
March 6, 2019

"Before those thirty-three and a half years, He was only divine, not human. But after those thirty-three and a half years, He became both divine and human. In other words, before that process He was only God, not man. But after that process, He became both God and man. Thus, some particular element was added into Him, and that particular element was humanity."

I think this writing from WL can be given a 100% affirmation, but what about the word "process"?
I checked a few references and it seems orthodox to state that prior to the Incarnation the Son of God had not become human, and I can agree that He experienced human living starting as a zygote and ending as a 33 years old young man. I can live with calling this time a process, but I believe Witness Lee leaves orthodoxy when he asserts that the Lord Jesus Christ was further "processed" to become something different called the life giving spirit, and even further becoming the seven-fold intensified spirit. There is Man in the heavens (not a seven-fold intensified spirit) and His life is for us!
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Old 03-06-2019, 08:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: Affirmation & Critique of Ministry Samples from "Witness Wednesday"

Technically it is true that Christ went through a process. And so in a sense he was "processed."

But so what? Who cares?

You can say that anyone who has live a lived a life has been processed.

Imagine a biography of Benjamin Franklin concluding by saying. Franklin's life was a long process. So, in the end, he was processed.

It sounds kind of profound, but it's really not. Anyway, you don't talk about people that way. The Bible says Christ was tested, and that he was perfected, and that he learned obedience. It prefers those ideas to "processed."

Lee was always angling for his view of the Spirit as some kind of all-inclusive stew that we imbibe and are thereby transformed. That's why he liked the term "processed." But it's an impersonal view of our relationship with God, and time has shown it doesn't really work anyway.

Jesus went through the meat grinder and came out the all-inclusive, processed sausage.

No thanks.
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Old 03-07-2019, 06:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: Affirmation & Critique of Ministry Samples from "Witness Wednesday"

Growth and transformation come from a personal relationship with the Person of God. They come from getting to know him, in relationship--what he likes, what he dislikes, how he goes about things, how he reacts to things and obeying him.

Transformation does not come, largely, from an indirect, unconscious reaction of our being to our enjoyment of God. Enjoyment is the environment, it is not the complete process of transformation. Transformation only comes through going deep into God through knowledge of and obedience to this conscious, living Person in all our circumstances. It comes from a conscious decision to leave ourselves behind and follow him in obedience. Generally this manifests itself as living for other people, not for institutions or ideals, such as "the Recovery."

If you do not learn to see and love others as God does, you do not know him well, and so are not much transformed.

This is why many people in the LR can seem to "enjoy" God for many years and never change. They never get around to actually going deeper in obedience to him, they never really get to know him better. They get to know a lot of high doctrines. But high doctrines are not him.

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Affirmation & Critique of Ministry Samples from "Witness Wednesday"

The beauty of this is that it is your relationship with God. It is your transformation. It is not anyone else's. No one can take it away from you; and no one or thing, not even the great "Recovery," can invalidate it. You know God, and you know you know God. And he knows you.

"And I will give to each one a white stone, and on the stone will be engraved a new name that no one knows or understands except the one who receives it." Revelation 2:17
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Old 03-07-2019, 08:54 AM   #6
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Default Re: Affirmation & Critique of Ministry Samples from "Witness Wednesday"

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This is why many people in the LR can seem to "enjoy" God for many years and never change. They never get around to actually going deeper in obedience to him, they never really get to know him better. They get to know a lot of high doctrines. But high doctrines are not him.
W. Lee had a way of convincing all his followers that they were forever in need of training, more training, never enough training. Paul referred to such ones in II Time 3.7, "and are always learning something new, and yet are never able to arrive at real knowledge of the truth." It's like those forever stuck in academia, never putting their resources to work.

Back in the 90's, many long-term accolades began to query Lee as to why there was so little evidence of the promised transformation in their lives. How much real "transformation" occurred at LSM while they provided cover for Philip Lee's "obsessions," and they were writing fiction to smear those "conspirators." Do you think God was dispensing His economy into all of them who quarantined the Midwest, writing smear booklets, and holding local training sessions to "replaster" the churches of alleged "lepers?"
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Old 03-07-2019, 12:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: Affirmation & Critique of Ministry Samples from "Witness Wednesday"

Ohio,
To this day, save for the conferences and church meetings, they say the other gatherings are trainings. But I never quite understood in what or how we were being trained.
I've come to really dislike the term "training" as well as "the Lord's Recovery."
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Old 03-07-2019, 03:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: Affirmation & Critique of Ministry Samples from "Witness Wednesday"

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Ohio,
To this day, save for the conferences and church meetings, they say the other gatherings are trainings. But I never quite understood in what or how we were being trained.
I've come to really dislike the term "training" as well as "the Lord's Recovery."
You're not alone. Converting from conferences to "trainings" was was very profitable for LSM, in more ways than one. Firstly, they raked in millions off the preaching of the word of God, in other words, they "peddled the Word of God." (II Cor 2.17) Secondly, they established attendance quotas for regions and churches to bring them under LSM's subjection. Thirdly, they annulled the spiritual functioning and ministerial operations of the local elders, creating spiritual needs which only LSM could meet.
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