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Old 02-25-2019, 06:31 PM   #1
Trapped
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Default Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

Quote from Lee’s ministry:

"Verse 12 says, "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is the Christ" (Gk.). In this verse Paul brings in the concept that Christ is the Body. You may be familiar with the fact that in verse 12 we see the Body-Christ, the corporate Christ, not the individual Christ. Yes, we are the corporate Christ. However, if we are dumb when we gather together in the meetings, Christ has no way to come forth. He cannot come forth when we are silent. But when we are spiritual, speaking and functioning in the meetings, Christ comes out. When you speak for Christ, Christ comes forth in your speaking. If we all speak forth Christ, then the corporate Christ, the Body-Christ, will come forth. This is Christ as the Body. In order to have the Body-Christ, we all need to speak."

Lee makes a leap here that I just don't see, although maybe it is legitimate, in which case I welcome an explanation. I don't read 1 Cor. 12:12 and get the concept that "Christ is the Body". I read it and get that many members of the human body are one, and in like manner all the members of Christ's Body are one, including with Christ Himself, the Head.

Using a term like “the corporate Christ” or “the Body-Christ” seems unnecessary and like they could easily lead to a misunderstanding of the concept. It’s as if we are Christ without Him, or as if there are two Christs......the Head-Christ and the Body-Christ, or Christ and the corporate Christ. We have the Biblical phrase “the Body of Christ".......why torque it into “the Body-Christ”??

The verse, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” does come to mind, when of course in reality Saul was persecuting the believers, the Body. In the LC this was always explained as persecuting the believers is persecuting the Lord Himself, with the example given that if someone punches your arm, you don’t say “Ow, why did you punch my arm?” you say “Ow, why did you punch ME?”

But other Bible commentaries on this verse say things like “Christ speaks of Himself as persecuted by Saul, because ‘in all the affliction of his people he is afflicted’ (Isaiah 63:9), and ‘whoso toucheth them, toucheth the apple of his eye’ (Zechariah 2:8).” This kind of explanation seems to me to provide one healthy degree of removal......kind of emphasizing how great the Lord’s love is for us that persecuting us is like persecuting Him, rather than, essentially, we = Christ.

Another thought is that in the analogy, where punching my arm is punching ME, and that my body = ME, well.......our body ISN’T actually us. Our body just “houses” us. What is “us” continues on after death and ever after the body has decayed away. So in that sense, it’s like the body is what contains and carries out the functions of us, and in the same way the Body is what contains and carries out the functions of Christ, and in this way persecuting the Body is persecuting Christ, but the body doesn’t EQUAL Christ. After all, how could Christ marry Christ?

I may be off here and am happy to be enlightened. Maybe this is mysterious and has to remain that way. Just thinking out loud mostly.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

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Another thought is that in the analogy, where punching my arm is punching ME, and that my body = ME, well.......our body ISN’T actually us. Our body just “houses” us. What is “us” continues on after death and ever after the body has decayed away. So in that sense, it’s like the body is what contains and carries out the functions of us, and in the same way the Body is what contains and carries out the functions of Christ, and in this way persecuting the Body is persecuting Christ, but the body doesn’t EQUAL Christ. After all, how could Christ marry Christ?
Just another way Lee was in error. This belongs in Lee's list of strikeouts. Of course the Body isn't Christ, anymore than we are becoming God. It's another example of how if Lee had allowed his teaching to get vetted by the Body () this kind of nonsense would have been filtered out. But he was too proud for that. No one could tell him anything and he wouldn't listen to anybody.

Whenever he said the Body is Christ or the Church is Christ, that was just a pretext to teaching we should submit to the Church or Body like we submit to Christ, which was one more nail in the coffin of control. Lee was all about getting people in bondage to the Church, that is, his church. The more bondage the better as far as he was concerned. But since he was the MOTA, he was above it all. We minions, however, were expected to be.

Actually, he wanted everyone to be in bondage to him, so it's probably more accurate to say he thought he was the Church.
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

On the "why do you persecute me" thing......I think the explanation is much more simple than Lee's "believers = Christ". In Acts 26:9 Paul says, "I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth."

It's just that the Lord knew what was in Saul's heart which is why He had grounds to ask why he was persecuting Him, because that really was Saul's motivation. Really, Saul WAS opposing Jesus. But Jesus isn't around to directly oppose. So he takes it out on Jesus's followers. He is persecuting Jesus, that's his driving force, but the only way he can practically do it is to inflict harm upon Christians. Like if someone was so angry at a former spouse they murdered their children......the ex-spouse could still ask "why did you do this to me?" even though the act was on someone else. It doesn't mean the children ARE the parent.

Sorry for the graphic example, but ahhhhhhhhh it is so wonderful to be able to pause at things that I have a hard time swallowing but never knew why, and actually figure out what's wrong with it.

"Strikeouts" also deal a big blow to the concept of this stuff being "the ministry of the age". Where are the "strikeouts" in the Bible (the real ministry of the age)?? They aren't there. But Lee's stuff has many. It is not "the" ministry. It's just one fallen man's ministry.

Man is it a lonely journey discovering this stuff surrounded by people who continually claim "it's all in the ministry!" "All our help can be found in the ministry!"
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

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On the "why do you persecute me" thing......I think the explanation is much more simple than Lee's "believers = Christ".
I was deceived by this a long time, thinking that Christ is the body, and they are inseparable. It can almost make one a slave of the system. If Christ is the body, then one can serve hours on end thinking that the Lord is being served and is pleased. In the end, however, one becomes married to the church, and has neither the Lord nor a family.

All the serving to the church robs one of Christ, of one's personal relationship with Him. One is also robbed of one's family, since emdless hours were invested serving the church. Neither the Lord is pleased, nor is your wife happy. The bosses on top actually have an easier life than their lieutenants beneath them saddled with all the work.
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

It's false christ. I read Lee's message for a long time. First, I was convinced that we were corporate Christ and we were Christ like Him. But Lord Jesus exposes me and Lee's teaching by confirming that Lee preached false Christs:

At that time if anyone says to you, Behold here is the Christ! Or, here! Do not believe it.
For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to lead astray, if possible even the chosen.
Behold, I have told you beforehand.
Therefore if they say to you, Behold, He is in wilderness, do not go forth; Behold, He is in the inner room, do not believe it.

(Matthew 24:23-26)


Lord Jesus's warning is precious. He enlightens me and brings me back to Him and saves me from Lee's false Christs.
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

In Matthew 25:40,45, Jesus says the "least of these" are "him" also. So does that mean each of us are Christ too in the way the Body is supposed to be Christ according to Lee? If so, does that mean people need to serve me night and day and neglect their families to do so. I don't recall that teaching by Lee.

Clearly the Bible uses metaphors and the like, and each one has to be interpreted in the context of the whole Bible. When Jesus said you did to me, he meant that figuratively. He meant that he takes personally how we treat others. To take it to mean that the Church really is Christ so we need to be at the meeting hall night and day is just missing it.

This is why you need a guiding principle to interpret everything. And the best one is in 1 Cor 13. Without love nothing means anything. Love what? A great ministry? The institution of the Church? The Recovery? No. We are to love God and love people. These are first and second commandments. If you interpret every verse from the standpoint that God loves us and loves people and we are to love God and people as well, it's hard to go too far wrong.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

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Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
On the "why do you persecute me" thing......I think the explanation is much more simple than Lee's "believers = Christ". In Acts 26:9 Paul says, "I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth."

It's just that the Lord knew what was in Saul's heart which is why He had grounds to ask why he was persecuting Him, because that really was Saul's motivation. Really, Saul WAS opposing Jesus. But Jesus isn't around to directly oppose. So he takes it out on Jesus's followers.
The principle of agency was widely understood and used by the writers of the NT, and it keeps us from conflating things that we shouldn't. The servant is the extension of the master. The emissary is the extension of the far-off king, and speaks for him. But the servant is not the master, nor the emissary the king. Yet the emissary can rightly say, "When you see me, you see the king", and the servant, "When I speak, the master speaks." Early NT readers would have understood this.

For example, see the message from the centurion to Jesus. The centurion represented, even personified, Caesar's will to the those under him. He was, "a man under authority" (Luke 7:8). Yet the centurion was not Caesar, ontologically speaking. One doesn't need an advanced degree to get this. Most of the audience would have been clear about what was being communicated, and what was not.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:28 AM   #8
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

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"Verse 12 says, "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is the Christ" (Gk.). In this verse Paul brings in the concept that Christ is the Body."
To me this verse is saying as the body is one and has many members, so also Christ has a body which has many members yet is one body.

There may be other verses that support "Christ is the Body", but this verse doesn't do it for me.

What about this verse: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Christ IS ALL and in all. How do we interpret "Christ is all" in this case then?

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Old 02-27-2019, 05:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

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To me this verse is saying as the body is one and has many members, so also Christ has a body which has many members yet is one body.

There may be other verses that support "Christ is the Body", but this verse doesn't do it for me.

What about this verse: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Christ IS ALL and in all. How do we interpret "Christ is all" in this case then?

Trapped
If there are no more gentiles, then why does Paul write of "churches of the gentiles" in Roman's 16:4? If there is no more male or female, why does he then ask women to be quiet in church? If there is no longer slave or free, why does he advise slaves to obey their masters?

The danger is that we read too much into the "neither" of something and the "all" of something else. Paul's looking at our primary identification, our allegiance, our value sets. In these, Christ should supersede all. It doesnt mean that the other things no longer categorically exist, or that one category has swallowed all. In our behaviours, yes, we should "act as if" Christ were all in all. But as an ontological matter it makes no sense.

Paul said, Greeks love wisdom. Clearly they can love wisdom too much, and overthink the process.

One of my primary touchstones is Dorcas/Tabitha. Nothing is said of her theology, but of her good works, and the tears of the widows. So there is clear evidence of the love of Christ out-poured. Really, there is nothing else. To me, this is the "Christ as all and in all." If you get this, you get everything.

"Who is that servant, when the Master comes, he finds them so doing? Truly I tell you, the Master will place them over the whole house." The "so doing" here is not holding forth on declensions of Greek verbs but rendering real, practical care to those who cannot repay you in this age. This is love. This is what Christ did for us, and what he as the Master of the house expects of us.

Philosophical speculations are only the handmaiden to love and good works.
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Old 02-28-2019, 06:32 AM   #10
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

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To me this verse is saying as the body is one and has many members, so also Christ has a body which has many members yet is one body.

There may be other verses that support "Christ is the Body", but this verse doesn't do it for me.

What about this verse: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Christ IS ALL and in all. How do we interpret "Christ is all" in this case then?

Trapped
Below is a link to a Greek inter linear of 1 Cor 12. Read verse 12 and look for “The Christ”:https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/12.htm.

Right, there is no “The”, as Lee states.
The inter linear translation says “so also (is) Christ”, skipping “ho” because while it often is translated “which, what, or that”, none of those make any sense in English. “So also is which Christ”, “So also which Christ”, “so also is what Christ”, “so also what Christ, “so also is that Christ”, “so also that Christ”?
None of those translations make sense, so most English translations skip it, but also don’t add “The”, rather “is”: “So also is Christ”.
OK, so I’ve proved I’m not a Greek scholar.
The point is “The Christ” is an invention of Lee. So, let’s stop taking his word as “gospel”, and read scripture in various translations to “fact check”. When we do it just isn’t so.
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Old 02-28-2019, 07:19 AM   #11
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

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What about this verse: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Christ IS ALL and in all. How do we interpret "Christ is all" in this case then?
It's in reference to the diverse types of people. So it's saying Christ is the all-important thing among these different people, and which makes them one.

Don't get tangled up in the metaphysics of Christ being "all." What it means is he is far and away the most important thing.
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Old 02-28-2019, 07:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

We used to hear so often from Lee and the Blendeds just how much our individual or private decisions affected "The Body," and how much the individual LC's affected "The Body."

These teachings were 99% self-serving and manipulative. We were both individually and collectively robbed of our right and our responsibility to follow Jesus, the Head of the body, directly without an intermediary. Thus Lee kept us in fear, into believing that offending "The Body" was far more serious than offending "The Head." Actually, by keeping us in fear of offending "The Body," he in reality kept us obeying him, thus usurping the rightful place of Jesus, our ascended Head.

As others have said, "Any teaching taken to the extreme, can beome a falsehood."
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Old 02-28-2019, 07:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: Christ is the Body, "the Body-Christ"

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The point is “The Christ” is an invention of Lee...
The "Body-Christ" is a fabrication, getting us to kow-tow to "the ministry of the age", which was the vehicle for the interests of a minister, his immediate family, and his non-profit publishing house (plus associated for-profit subsidiaries [Phosphorous, Daystar &c]). The "Body-Christ" was a lever to manipulate the gullible.
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