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Old 11-28-2014, 06:30 PM   #1
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Default Newspaper Clippings re Witness Lee & the Lord's Recovery

A thread consolidating some of the external articles re the Lord's Recovery may be helpful. (Since the Lord's Recovery is not a cult, and rejects cultic tendencies, they should be open to knowing how they are perceived by outsiders, no?)

There may not be many articles out there, but there are some. Please contribute!
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Newspaper Clippings re Witness Lee & the Lord's Recovery

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There may not be many articles out there, but there are some. Please contribute!
I'll start. This was recently posted by Friedel (on the thread "Sacrifice and Sail On - Book by Philip Lin"):

"Ex-official reveals fear, loathing in ‘Local Church’" (article ran in The Spokesman Review, Spokane, WA, 17 December 1978, originally from the Los Angeles Times, by John Dart)
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:42 PM   #3
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Default Re: Newspaper Clippings re Witness Lee & the Lord's Recovery

This was posted by UntoHim as an attachment to the forum:

"Leader's Son Excommunicated: Crisis Threatens Future of Little-Known Church" (Los Angeles Times, 7 January 1989, by Russell Chandler)
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Old 02-23-2019, 09:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: Newspaper Clippings re Witness Lee & the Lord's Recovery

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Wow.......the thought that leaving the LC will result in divine retribution has been around for 40 years. It's really something reading an article about the LC written by an "outsider".......helps you see that what's "normal" (due just to growing up in it) really isn't normal.
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:55 AM   #5
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Default A rare interview

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The Local Church also underwent turmoil in 1978 when Max D Rapoport, then considered the heir apparent of the movement, quit his position as president of the Church in Anaheim. Earlier in the year, the leader of the Boston church departed.

Both cited intense psychological pressures to conform in one’s views and to perform up to expectations. Witness Lee, in a rare interview, denied the allegations. “In our church everyone is so free. We are free in our thinking,” he said then.
Witness Lee made some categorical, and quite striking remarks, in the 1978 telephone interview. He's either delusional, thinking of "everyone" and "we" as an extension of himself, and therefore he's a Christ-like figure, or he's simply lying. Those of us who went through the LC mental meat-grinder wouldn't say they're so "free in thinking".

Rather, it all pointed the other way. "You are in the army now", I was told. In Anaheim I heard, "Be a Witness Lee tape recorder". Later came buzz-words like "being restricted". Everything and everyone was "restricted", the exact opposite of "so free". Amazing that WL had the temerity to speak such words, so different from what was said behind closed doors, and even in the "trainings".

For that matter, if everyone's "so free", then why have "trainings", even "Full Time Trainings", i.e., 24/7 indoctrination camps? Rather, listen to the 2 prominent leaders who quit in 1978: "Both cited intense psychological pressure to conform" in views and behaviours. Doesn't that sound a little more like what was experienced in the LC? Witness Lee admittedly was so free, as he stated. Everyone else, not.
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:29 AM   #6
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Default Re: A rare interview

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Witness Lee admittedly was so free, as he stated. Everyone else, not.
When he said, "we are so free," he was only referring to himself and his two adult boys.
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Old 02-24-2019, 08:06 AM   #7
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the LC mental meat-grinder
Back in 78 it wasn't called that. It was called The Flow. If you were to be a burning brother you were to be totally given to The Flow.

Back then I naively thought The Flow was The Spirit. Until the lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale came back from Anaheim and told us what The Flow actually really was.

Using Revelation 22 he said something to the effect of : The flow comes out of the throne of God (carrying His authority) as the river of life, to the apostle on the earth, Witness Lee. Then, using Psalms 133, "the ointment upon the head" - Witness Lee - "runs down to the beard" - the elders in each locality, and then to "the skirts of his garments" - us little to-be-Lee-bots.

At least I finally learned what was meant by The Flow. No more 'in the sky' thinking about The Flow. The Flow wasn't a nebulous Spirit thing moving among us, and in our meetings. The Flow was a man ; the apostle on the earth ; the oracle of God on the earth ; and the authority of God on the earth.

And to be a burning brother was to be totally given to That Flow, and under That Authority ; under the authority of Witness Lee, by being under the authority of the elders. That was the real Flow -- none of that silly Spirit flow.

Now, thanks to brother aron, we know what it actually was. It was "the LC mental meat-grinder."
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Old 02-24-2019, 08:30 AM   #8
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Default Re: A rare interview

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Now, thanks to brother aron, we know what it actually was. It was "the LC mental meat-grinder."
I think what is most unsettling about the whole experiences is how easy it is to slant scripture to suggest the authority error which ensnares consciences into submission to men and movements.

Bait-and-switch and equivocation are usually the methods.

This was employed in the idea of "the one Ministry." It's easy to be convinced that Christ only has one ministry. Why would he have two? That's the bait. The switch is, So that one ministry must be one ministry on earth, that is, one man's ministry. That's the switch. The equivocation is the word "ministry" as applied to Christ and the word "ministry" as applied to someone else actually mean different things.

Lee used 2 Cor 4:1 to define the "one ministry" ("we have this ministry"). But 1 Cor 12:5 says there are multiple ministries ("there are different ministries"). The same Greek word for "ministry" (diakonian) is used in both.

Lee did this kind of thing over and over.

I think when it comes to authority you have to believe FIRMLY that only God is the absolute authority, and that if someone or something tries to take that role in your Christian life, you should feel free to part ways with him or it.

Authority is always limited to a finite group. You don't have to fight the authority in a group. Just leave and find another one. God has called us to peace. Of course, the LC violated this principle by claiming God would not allow anyone to leave their group, which plainly is a doctrine of demons, again based on bait-and-switch and equivocation.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:01 AM   #9
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Back in 78 it wasn't called that. It was called The Flow. If you were to be a burning brother you were to be totally given to The Flow.

Back then I naively thought The Flow was The Spirit. Until the lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale came back from Anaheim and told us what The Flow actually really was.

Using Revelation 22 he said something to the effect of : The flow comes out of the throne of God (carrying His authority) as the river of life, to the apostle on the earth, Witness Lee. Then, using Psalms 133, "the ointment upon the head" - Witness Lee - "runs down to the beard" - the elders in each locality, and then to "the skirts of his garments" - us little to-be-Lee-bots.

At least I finally learned what was meant by The Flow. No more 'in the sky' thinking about The Flow. The Flow wasn't a nebulous Spirit thing moving among us, and in our meetings. The Flow was a man ; the apostle on the earth ; the oracle of God on the earth ; and the authority of God on the earth.

And to be a burning brother was to be totally given to That Flow, and under That Authority ; under the authority of Witness Lee, by being under the authority of the elders. That was the real Flow -- none of that silly Spirit flow.

Now, thanks to brother aron, we know what it actually was. It was "the LC mental meat-grinder."
Those were some days! I recall getting the impression that the flow came down from the throne to WL, from him it flowed to Max, then to leading bros, finally to us lowly ones.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:03 AM   #10
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Default Re: A rare interview

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Those were some days! I recall getting the impression that the flow came down from the throne to WL, from him it flowed to Max, then to leading bros, finally to us lowly ones.
Because Max was deputized the "Universal Coordinator of the One New Man!"
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:19 AM   #11
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Because Max was deputized the "Universal Coordinator of the One New Man!"
Actually he gave himself that name. Sort of like when Michael Irvin started calling himself "Playmaker." Troy Aikman once called him on that in a joint interview. It was hilarious.
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:24 PM   #12
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Default Ritual as Ideology, Ch. 7, 1968 dissertation by Morris A. Fred

This is a partial copy of now, Dr. Morris A. Fred's dissertation and his study of the Local Church.

Ritual as Ideology in an Indigenous Chinese Christian Church

Examination of the 1966 split in the Local Church illustrates the relationship between changes in the church's organization and ritual.

... See attached .pdf.
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:28 PM   #13
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Default Dallas Morning News: Spring Park Residents Oppose Local Church

GARLAND - Hundreds of homeowners around the SpringPark addition have signed a petition opposed to The Church in Richardson moving into their neighborhood.

The residents of Spring Park prevailed.
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File Type: pdf DMN 10-20-95-Jerry McGill.pdf (14.7 KB, 17 views)
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:33 PM   #14
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Default Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1977 - Joyce Daily

Psychiatrist: "Either be deprogrammed here or spend 90 days in a mental hospital'
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:36 PM   #15
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Default Los Angeles Times 1/7/89 by Russell Chandler

Leader's Son Excommunicated
Crisis Threatens Future of Little-Known Church
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Old 02-24-2019, 08:46 PM   #16
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Default Re: Ritual as Ideology, Ch. 7, 1968 dissertation by Morris A. Fred

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Originally Posted by Nell View Post
This is a partial copy of now, Dr. Morris A. Fred's dissertation and his study of the Local Church.

Ritual as Ideology in an Indigenous Chinese Christian Church

Examination of the 1966 split in the Local Church illustrates the relationship between changes in the church's organization and ritual.

... See attached .pdf.
Nell,

Thank you for this dissertation. There's much stated here that is similiar to what transpired later in the USA. The idea of authority, the Apostle, etc. was already
being manifested.
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Old 02-25-2019, 02:46 AM   #17
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Default Re: A rare interview

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Back in 78 it was... called The Flow. If you were to be a burning brother you were to be totally given to The Flow.

Back then I naively thought The Flow was The Spirit. Until the lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale came back from Anaheim and told us what The Flow actually really was.

Using Revelation 22 he said something to the effect of : The flow comes out of the throne of God (carrying His authority) as the river of life, to the apostle on the earth, Witness Lee. Then, using Psalms 133, "the ointment upon the head" - Witness Lee - "runs down to the beard" - the elders in each locality, and then to "the skirts of his garments" - us little to-be-Lee-bots...
The lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale was like RG in Houston, who said, "You have to know what Brother Lee is thinking. You have to be able to read between the lines." Those are the ones who fare well in the LC.

In another quote from the interview, when asked if he was God's oracle, Witness Lee replied, "I am a Bible teacher." Yes, and so was Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshal Applewhite and Elizabeth Claire Prophet. They all taught the Bible, too: stressing the parts they liked and ignoring the rest. Just bring up the "wrong verses" to an LCer and get ready for the silence and the blank stare. They weren't programmed to receive that verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Rutledge
In the church life at that time, Witness Lee was very much in the background among the churches. While we sought the Lord for our daily walk, family life, and function in the Body of Christ, Ray would constantly reference Witness Lee for all matters – personal, local, and extra-local. Ray often told others that they needed to be able to “read between the lines” of what Brother Lee was saying and “hear what he really means” and that “he does not tell you directly what he wants”. Ray was always bringing Witness Lee to the foreground in the church, a trend that only increased with time. Because of his position of leadership, Ray, with his superstitious notions, eventually became a great problem to many. One of Ray’s ambitions was to serve Witness Lee directly, and he believed that one day Witness Lee would relocate to Texas, probably to Houston.
The formula for success in the LC was simple: if you promoted Lee, you got promoted. Your elder in FT. Lauderdale & RG both understood this.
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:41 AM   #18
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The lead elder of the c. in Ft. Lauderdale was like RG in Houston, who said, "You have to know what Brother Lee is thinking. You have to be able to read between the lines." Those are the ones who fare well in the LC.

In another quote from the interview, when asked if he was God's oracle, Witness Lee replied, "I am a Bible teacher." Yes, and so was Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshal Applewhite and Elizabeth Claire Prophet. They all taught the Bible, too: stressing the parts they liked and ignoring the rest. Just bring up the "wrong verses" to an LCer and get ready for the silence and the blank stare. They weren't programmed to receive that verse.

The formula for success in the LC was simple: if you promoted Lee, you got promoted. Your elder in FT. Lauderdale & RG both understood this.
The elder in Ft. Lauderdale had zero Spiritual content, and it was obvious when he'd stand up and ramble on.

But he was a Lee loyalist, and that's the only reason Lee made him lead elder. At the time I would have preferred Ron Kangas, but prolly would have been the same loyalty to Lee, but with at least some spiritual content and maturity ... which was prolly just his Princeton education.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:44 AM   #19
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When he said, "we are so free," he was only referring to himself and his two adult boys.
Witness Lee could tell the newspaper reporter in Seattle, "Here, we are so free", whilst Ray Graver could go to North Carolina and tell Bill Mallon, "Here, we do what we are told." Both expressed the same singularity, that "truth" could be whatever was needed at any given moment.

Thus women could be "pillars" at one time (Ruth Lee, Peace Wang), and later were to be "silent in the church", because of course Paul said so. Local churches could be autonomous at an early juncture and centralised later under the "Jerusalem principle". The psalmist at one moment was supposedly channeling Christ in his imprecations (defeating Satan), and later this was taken as evidence of fallen human concepts. Instead, we should love our enemies!

In all of it there's one truth, one constant: whatever the Big Boss says, goes. This is a culturally-mediated reality.

Now, the question becomes, "How could so many, to which these were alien, unnatural cultural values, fall so under its thrall?" At one point, I used the word "stunned", as in, "We were stunned out of our reasoning capacity." The charismatic experience of repetitive shouting caused a temporary cessation of thought. "Get out of your mind", we were told. Then followed the intensive "training" sessions, where we intensely focused one one person's speaking, and each tried to re-speak, in turn. Those who mimicked most closely were rewarded with approval, those who strayed from mimicry were viewed as independent.

It's not coincidental that Ray Graver rose to the top of this organisational heap. He knew how to read between the lines. He knew that "reality" was whatever Witness Lee wanted at any given time, even if not stated openly. "He doesn't tell you what he wants", he said.

Thank God for people like Ray, and the elder in Ft. Lauderdale, who'd make the programme plain for us dummies. Otherwise we might never have figured out what had hit us.
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:39 AM   #20
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It's not coincidental that Ray Graver rose to the top of this organisational heap. He knew how to read between the lines. He knew that "reality" was whatever Witness Lee wanted at any given time, even if not stated openly. "He doesn't tell you what he wants", he said.

Thank God for people like Ray,
and the elder in FT. Lauderdale, who could make the programme plain for us dummies, us mooing cows. Otherwise we might never have figured out what had hit us.
Lee used his many trainings to rebuke the evils of "man-pleasing" as if he was saved from its fleshly effects, yet behind the scenes, he solicited and even rewarded those who revered him. Publicly he taught that he was not an apostle, yet privately he promoted those who exalted him.

This explains why so many fleshly rivalries existed. Lee would play his lieutenants one against the other. He fostered a network of spies, or sleeper cells, which kept all the leaders in check, sowing suspicions to facilitate his controls.

It is no coincidence that both the Exclusive Brethren and the LC's endured serious divisions once their MOTA was gone. As they celebrated their lives at their funerals, lieutenants were already plotting their own take over. Don Rutledge's account informed us that this is where all of Benson Phillips' strengths were put to best use.
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Old 02-26-2019, 06:40 AM   #21
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Lee used his many trainings to rebuke the evils of "man-pleasing" as if he was saved from its fleshly effects, yet behind the scenes, he solicited and even rewarded those who revered him. Publicly he taught that he was not an apostle, yet privately he promoted those who exalted him.

This explains why so many fleshly rivalries existed. Lee would play his lieutenants one against the other. He fostered a network of spies, or sleeper cells, which kept all the leaders in check, sowing suspicions to facilitate his controls.

It is no coincidence that both the Exclusive Brethren and the LC's endured serious divisions once their MOTA was gone. As they celebrated their lives at their funerals, lieutenants were already plotting their own take over. Don Rutledge's account informed us that this is where all of Benson Phillips' strengths were put to best use.
The people who rose in the ranks knew well how the system worked, presumably it was one thing but in actuality quite another. The quote by Don Rutledge in post #17 is invaluable because it shows exactly what dynamic lies behind the scenes, from the mouth of one of the system's prime exploiters. Ministry promulgators like BP, EM, RG could say, "There is no hierarchy" even as they held one inflexibly.

Hey folks -

"Read between the lines", and

"Hear what he really means", and

"He doesn't tell you what he really wants". Get it?

The 5,000 year-old, very human culture that lies behind all this isn't worse than another - "There is none good, not one". All have fallen short of God's glory. But there's no reason on earth to take it. If someone convinces you otherwise, that it marks the path to heaven, then they've stolen your birthright for their own selfish ends. You've given up God's kingdom for theirs.
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Old 02-26-2019, 07:23 AM   #22
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The 5,000 year-old, very human culture that lies behind all this isn't worse than another - "There is none good, not one". All have fallen short of God's glory. But there's no reason on earth to take it. If someone convinces you otherwise, that it marks the path to heaven, then they've stolen your birthright for their own selfish ends. You've given up God's kingdom for theirs.
I don't doubt that Chinese culture was in the mix, but then the Exclusive Brethren must have drawn on the British Monarchy for "inspiration?"

Many an historian wrote that J.N. Darby became a far worse "pope" than the one he regularly condemned. But, of course, the Brits have regularly condemned the pope since Henry VIII.
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Old 02-26-2019, 09:38 AM   #23
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I don't doubt that Chinese culture was in the mix, but then the Exclusive Brethren must have drawn on the British Monarchy for "inspiration?"

Many an historian wrote that J.N. Darby became a far worse "pope" than the one he regularly condemned. But, of course, the Brits have regularly condemned the pope since Henry VIII.
Abusive, cloistered sects have existed since the beginning. But this one is Chinese-flavored. Look at the quotes, "Even when he's wrong, he's right", and "He doesn't tell you what he really wants". Those are assuming a Chinese culture. I don't think Darby's followers would have put his leadership that way. I admit that zealous religion, ignorantly held, will turn the most staunch republican into a Caesar-promoting acolyte, irrespective of culture. "Caesar = Tsar = Kaiser". It's all the same thing, in a way. The Brits, and Americans, have each birthed abusive, marginally Christian sects.

But this variant is unquestionably Chinese - the trick was disguising the cultural imperatives, the "extras", and selling it as if it were heaven-sent, rather than Asian-sent. But notice how quickly the Bible got abandoned when it conflicted with the native culture. Jesus said to hate your father and mother if they interfered with the kingdom. The Americans were often convinced this was necessary, in the LC. The Chinese, almost never. Their culture was simply too ingrained.

Or, "Against an elder don't receive accusation unless by two witnesses." But with Lee, two witnesses wouldn't suffice. The eldership in Anaheim, all hand-picked had to resign en masse because they witnessed against Witness' son. Paul got over-ruled by Asian culture. Don't touch the family of the Big Boss.

And the trick to selling it was, if the sellers themselves didn't realise what they were selling. They could look you straight in the eye and say it was "biblical", until it conflicted with their culture. But probably, Nee and Lee really believed God was on virgin, untainted soil in The Middle Kingdom. That gave them the necessary fervor to sell.

So Lee could say, "We are so free", even while his minions were out telling others "what he really meant", and they didn't see anything wrong, because in their mind that was necessary for good order in the [Chinese] church. There was no alternative in their mental world: the Big Boss is always right. Even when he's wrong.
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Old 02-26-2019, 02:29 PM   #24
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Default Re: Newspaper Clippings re Witness Lee & the Lord's Recovery

Regarding posting #23 by Aaron, I would hear over and over again that we're not here for our living but for the LR, we should not put family first, not live by culture, we're for the Lord, not for our education, and the the Lord doesn't want our natural ability, among other preachings. But those items I did not seem to observe among us. It appeared to me that natural abilities were used to do things without being broken.
Then in the RV footnote for Acts 15:39, regarding the contention between Paul and Barnabas, it says coworkers disputes because of personal relations are terrible and
"Remember this well!" Yet we all know what happened with PL, etc.
This was the cognitive dissonance I experienced, hearing exhortations to do or not to do this and that, but yet seeing the opposite.
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Old 02-26-2019, 03:13 PM   #25
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Default Re: Newspaper Clippings re Witness Lee & the Lord's Recovery

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It appeared to me that natural abilities were used to do things without being broken.
Nowhere does the Bible say that our natural abilities need to broken. What does that mean anyway? This error was in keeping with the LR's flawed transformation model, which said that magically by the Spirit our nature is being changed, by radiation or while we are sleeping or something.

That is not what happens. Yes, breaking is needed. But it is US that needs to be broken, not our abilities or nature. Our selves, our egos, our wills, are broken by our coming to know through various experiences that we need God in everything, that he is trustworthy, and that obedience to him is the wisest course. This is breaking. This is transformation.

Something without consciousness or will does not need to be broken. Certainly our abilities have no such things, so you are correct.

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Old 02-26-2019, 05:19 PM   #26
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In response to #25, it is more accurate that it's us, the natural man, that needs to be broken. (No longer I, but Christ) I was trying to express that in hearing this teaching, it still seemed to be that the natural man was doing a lot of the functions.
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:42 PM   #27
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In response to #25, it is more accurate that it's us, the natural man, that needs to be broken. (No longer I, but Christ) I was trying to express that in hearing this teaching, it still seemed to be that the natural man was doing a lot of the functions.
There is no "natural man." Even Lee admitted in the book, The Experience of Life, that the Bible doesn't mention it, but went on to say we can know it exists. Okay, whatever. Chalk up yet another invention of Lee's.

What does it mean to speak of "the natural man?" Is he some doppelganger lurking in the shadows, doing things on the sly?

There is just you, and the Lord. You can obey the Spirit or not. Keep it simple, bro.
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Old 02-26-2019, 06:00 PM   #28
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1 Cor 2:14 refers to what could be translated "man of the soul" and is sometime translated "natural man." But that is simply a description of a person who is not walking according to the Spirit. There is no ghost-like alternate man lurking about within us, who does weird things when we aren't paying attention, and needs to be "broken."
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:23 PM   #29
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The "natural man" was also referred to by Lee as the "natural constitution. Here is an excerpt from Chapter 11 of The Experience of Life, "Dealing with the Natural Constitution. "
Constitution as used here means “the aggregate of man's physical and mental powers.” In the Bible there is no such term as the natural constitution, and it is seldom mentioned among Christians; yet in our experience there is such a thing. It is an outstanding characteristic of the soulish man and a prominent expression of the living out of the old man. If we pursue the experience of the cross, we cannot neglect this aspect of dealing. Hence, we need the lesson of dealing with the natural constitution.
Say what? The Bible doesn't mention it, but Lee is going to write a whole chapter about dealing with the “the aggregate of man's physical and mental powers.”

Here's the reality. The "natural constitution" is yet ANOTHER thing Lee used to diminish whomever he wanted. How many times have you done something, said something, shown concern about something, and the response from one of the faithful was, "Brother, you are just too natural."

Natural? What decides something is natural? Like I said, it's either of the Spirit or it isn't. If it is it's okay; if isn't it is not. What does "natural constitution" have to do with anything?

Again, this is just how Lee placed doubt in everyone's minds about the gifts, abilities and insights God has given them. If Lee didn't like your approach, he could always just accuse you of being "natural."

Certainly WE need to be brought under control of the Holy Spirit. But what does dealing with the "natural constitution" mean? How does it happen? What are its results?

Sounds like a bunch of mumbo jumbo to me.
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:46 PM   #30
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1 Cor 2:14 refers to what could be translated "man of the soul" and is sometime translated "natural man." But that is simply a description of a person who is not walking according to the Spirit. There is no ghost-like alternate man lurking about within us, who does weird things when we aren't paying attention, and needs to be "broken."
That was the first verse that became alive to me after I was saved.

I think we can reasonably say that the "natural man, or soulish man" is us without faith. We must continue daily to be "believing believers." Our most precious commodity is our faith, which must be active every day.

Faith, Hope, and Love, and the greatest of these is love.
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Old 02-27-2019, 04:04 AM   #31
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Natural? What decides something is natural? Like I said, it's either of the Spirit or it isn't. If it is it's okay; if isn't it is not. What does "natural constitution" have to do with anything?

Again, this is just how Lee placed doubt in everyone's minds about the gifts, abilities and insights God has given them. If Lee didn't like your approach, he could always just accuse you of being "natural."
The Subjective Christ was a trojan horse, whereby Lee's subjectivity could overwhelm yours. Instead of believing that God raised Jesus from the dead, you believed that Lee was "spiritual" or "mystical" and you were "soulish" or "natural".

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I was trying to express that in hearing this teaching, it still seemed to be that the natural man was doing a lot of the functions.
Then, when we observed the supposed Spiritual Man clearly violating his own stated precepts in diverting $$ for arguably carnal son #1, or installing admittedly carnal son #2 as The Office at LSM, we were taught that spirituality was to submit quietly and to ignore the obvious. If we mentioned what we saw, that was Rebellion, which was a heinous sin before God. That was being a Natural Man.

Thus did the Ministry of the Age impose a set of shifting rules to it's own benefit. The key was the initial point where you accepted their subjective experience as your objective, ageed-upon reality. Then, the game was on.

Back to the clippings: in one, RG states that all believers in one city should meet together as the church in that city. In the next sentence, he says that he doesn't mean that all the believers in Houston should meet in his church! Of course not! He says something categorical, then in the next breath denies the obvious corollary to his categorical "truth". Everything in service of the delusion.

If you want another example, "We don't care for right and wrong; we care for [the subjective experience of] 'life'". The Spirtual Man can sin, and his minions only care that he is happy. Don't let the Big Boss lose face. As long as he is happy, we are happy. In the LC this is considered "life"; this is their "spiritual" yardstick. This points to a strong delusion at work.

The objective fact of the Christian faith is that God has raised Jesus from the dead and given him glory and dominion, and the name which is above every name, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth; both in this age and that which is to come. Don't let someone's subjectivity overwhelm your God-given faith. If you're lured to chase the will o'the wisp of your feelings, you may find yourself chasing someone else's feelings instead. A disastrous course.
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Old 02-27-2019, 06:14 AM   #32
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The Subjective Christ was a trojan horse, whereby Lee's subjectivity could overwhelm yours. Instead of believing that God raised Jesus from the dead, you believed that Lee was "spiritual" or "mystical" and you were "soulish" or "natural".



Then, when we observed the supposed Spiritual Man clearly violating his own stated precepts in diverting $$ for arguably carnal son #1, or installing admittedly carnal son #2 as The Office at LSM, we were taught that spirituality was to submit quietly and to ignore the obvious. If we mentioned what we saw, that was Rebellion, which was a heinous sin before God. That was being a Natural Man.

Thus did the Ministry of the Age impose a set of shifting rules to it's own benefit. The key was the initial point where you accepted their subjective experience as your objective, ageed-upon reality. Then, the game was on.
A rerun of an episode of MOTA, illustrating aron's insights:

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Old 02-27-2019, 06:24 AM   #33
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Then, when we observed the supposed Spiritual Man clearly violating his own stated precepts in diverting $$ for arguably carnal son #1, or installing admittedly carnal son #2 as The Office at LSM, we were taught that spirituality was to submit quietly and to ignore the obvious. If we mentioned what we saw, that was Rebellion, which was a heinous sin before God. That was being a Natural Man.

Thus did the Ministry of the Age impose a set of shifting rules to it's own benefit. The key was the initial point where you accepted their subjective experience as your objective, ageed-upon reality. Then, the game was on.

Back to the clippings: in one, RG states that all believers in one city should meet together as the church in that city. In the next sentence, he says that he doesn't mean that all the believers in Houston should meet in his church! Of course not! He says something categorical, then in the next breath denies the obvious corollary to his categorical "truth". Everything in service of the delusion.

If you want another example, "We don't care for right and wrong; we care for [the subjective experience of] 'life'". The Spiritual Man can sin, and his minions only care that he is happy. Don't let the Big Boss lose face. As long as he is happy, we are happy. In the LC this is considered "life"; this is their "spiritual" yardstick. This points to a strong delusion at work.
These are the things that freed me from the many delusions in the Recovery.

When walking thru the fog of delusion, it's hard to identify real church oneness, real spirituality, or real submission.

But then in the dense fog, having only a tiny internet flashlight to see with, we run across sisters molested, ministerial filthy lucre, and spinning smear jobs called quarantines, and all we can say is "that's not it."

And slowly the fog dissipates as the sun rises.
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