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Old 10-18-2009, 06:35 PM   #1
Indiana
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Default Open Letter to Ron Kangas

http://www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRe...terOct2009.pdf

Ron Kangas and others, I am told, feel that I am the "embodiment of the Accuser of the brethren", when all that I have been addressing over the last 8 years is their own false accusations of the brethren, which are well-documented. This letter in the link addresses Ron Kangas and his defamatory word spoken about me in Ecuador to South American co-workers.

(In the letter, expect a pause of less than a minute at the beginning of the tape of his speaking.)

http://www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRe...terOct2009.pdf
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

I've listened to Ron's message in Ecaudor and read the open letter. If there's a lie Steve has spoken, an offense comitted, Ron should definitely speak a similar word at a training or at a blending conference in North America. If there's an offense warranting public announcement, appropriate steps should be taken.
Until that time, since Steve hasn't been called a man of lies, that implies his historical-based writings have merit.

Below are Watchman Nee's words on what lies are.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...23%5D%5B%2E%0A

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Old 10-22-2009, 10:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Below are Watchman Nee's words on what lies are.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...23%5D%5B%2E%0A

Terry

Terry, can you please give the citation?

LSM doesn't permit deep linking...
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Old 10-22-2009, 12:33 PM   #4
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

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Originally Posted by YP0534 View Post
Terry, can you please give the citation?

LSM doesn't permit deep linking...
Message to New Believers (3)
Chapter: WORDS

"B. What Lies Are
1. Double-tongued
To be double-tongued is to lie. A person is lying when he first says one thing and then turns around and says something else, when he first says yes and then no, when he first says that something is good and then says that it is bad, or when he first agrees that something is right and then says that it is wrong. This is not just a matter of a wavering mind but a matter of lying.

2. Speaking according to What One Likes or Dislikes
We tell others what we like and keep silent about what we do not like. We speak about what is profitable to us and keep silent about things that are not profitable to us. This is also a kind of lying. Many people purposely withhold half of a story. They withhold the things that are profitable to others, especially things that are profitable to their enemies, and remain silent about them. Instead, they talk about things that hurt, damage, or bring loss to others. This is lying. Many people do not speak according to truth and reality, but according to their own likes and dislikes. Many words are not based on facts but on sentiments. Such people speak certain things because they like to speak them, or they speak about certain persons because they like them. They change their tone when the conversation turns to people or things they do not like. This kind of speaking is totally according to one's likes and dislikes. It is speaking according to one's emotion, not according to truth and reality. Please keep in mind that this is lying. Inaccurate words are a serious sin. Willful deception is even more serious, and it is a greater sin before God. We must not speak according to our emotion but according to facts. Either we must not speak at all, or we must speak according to facts and the truth. We cannot speak according to our feeling. If we do, we are lying willfully before God.

3. Speaking according to One's Hopes
Furthermore, we must learn to put away our own feelings; we should not have any expectations of others. Many words today represent hopes rather than facts. They do not convey facts; they only convey a man's hopes. A person often reviles a sister or a brother according to his sentiment rather than according to fact. He only hopes that a sister is as bad as he thinks, yet he speaks as if the sister is indeed that bad. Or he only hopes that a brother will fall, yet he speaks as if the brother has fallen already. He speaks according to what he wishes would happen, not according to what has actually happened. Do you see the fundamental problem here? Often a person speaks according to what he expects in his heart. His words do not convey what has actually happened. Rather than speaking of the actual situation, he speaks of what he expects the situation to be.

4. Adding One's Own Thoughts
Why is it that many words are altered when they pass from one mouth to another? A statement often is changed completely after passing through three or four mouths. Why? This is because each person adds his own thoughts instead of finding out the facts. No one tries to find out the facts, yet everyone tries to add his own thoughts. This is lying.

There is one basic principle of speaking: One must not speak according to his feeling or hope. A person is lying when he is not speaking according to truth and reality but according to expectation and hope. We should learn to speak according to facts and not express any opinion of our own. If we are giving our opinion, we need to make it clear that this is our opinion. When we are speaking a fact, we need to state that this is a fact. We must separate our opinions from facts. We should not mix facts with our opinions. What we think a person is and what a person actually is are two different things. At the most we can say that the fact indicates one thing but we have a different thought concerning the matter.

5. Exaggeration
There is another type of lie which is very prevalent in the church—exaggeration. Please bear in mind that inaccurate numbers and inaccurate words, as well as the love of big words, strong words, or exaggerated words, are different forms of lies because there is falsehood in all of them.

Today if you want to know where a saint's heart is before the Lord, all you have to do is tell him something and ask him to tell others about it. You will immediately know where his heart is before the Lord. A person who fears God, who has learned the proper lessons, and who has been dealt with by God will consider speaking a great thing. He will not dare to speak carelessly or spread words carelessly. He will pay attention to accurate words. When you commit a word to a person who has not been dealt with or disciplined by the Lord, he will spread the word zealously. In his spreading you will find that he is a frivolous, deceitful, and dishonest person. He can add many words of his own and withhold words that should be spoken."

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Old 10-28-2009, 12:54 PM   #5
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana View Post
http://www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRe...terOct2009.pdf

Ron Kangas and others, I am told, feel that I am the "embodiment of the Accuser of the brethren", when all that I have been addressing over the last 8 years is their own false accusations of the brethren, which are well-documented. This letter in the link addresses Ron Kangas and his defamatory word spoken about me in Ecuador to South American co-workers.

(In the letter, expect a pause of less than a minute at the beginning of the tape of his speaking.)

http://www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRe...terOct2009.pdf
Steve, I listened to brother Ron in Ecuador, and am shocked at the claptrap coming out of him. He uses discernment of the two trees in the Eden to basically drive home the notion that, LSM and Co. is life, and all else is death.

He might just as well have stood up and said, "Everything coming from Lee, LSM, and the Blended Brothers is the tree of life, and anything coming from anywhere else is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, especially anything coming off the web, or from Steve Isitt."

Brother Ron has been drinking too much of the kool-aid at LSM. As a result, your efforts to reconcile with him will fail. Those affiliated with the LSM LC are like the Borg. They're hooked up to command central, and can not allow anything foreign in their minds. They need to be infected with a virus that reaches the core. Good luck with that.
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Old 10-28-2009, 10:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
He uses discernment of the two trees in the Eden to basically drive home the notion that, LSM and Co. is life, and all else is death.
Harold, that's the perception I received from listening to the audio. Steve's writing equals the Tree of Knowledge. It's understandable. Whenever someone has a word to remove the veil and exposing the light, it is decried as being from the Tree of Knowledge.

As to your notion that LSM, DCP, etc is life and all other ministries is death, how can I take that seriously? There are other edifying ministries out there. All one has to do is listen, discern, and receive.

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Old 10-31-2009, 03:27 AM   #7
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Steve, I listened to brother Ron in Ecuador, and am shocked at the claptrap coming out of him. He uses discernment of the two trees in the Eden to basically drive home the notion that, LSM and Co. is life, and all else is death.

He might just as well have stood up and said, "Everything coming from Lee, LSM, and the Blended Brothers is the tree of life, and anything coming from anywhere else is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, especially anything coming off the web, or from Steve Isitt."

Brother Ron has been drinking too much of the kool-aid at LSM. As a result, your efforts to reconcile with him will fail. Those affiliated with the LSM LC are like the Borg. They're hooked up to command central, and can not allow anything foreign in their minds. They need to be infected with a virus that reaches the core. Good luck with that.

Yes, well, who could argue (intelligently) with what you have said.
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

Dear ones,

Wow! There is a really sobering, hard-hitting excerpt form WN in the middle of dear brother Steve I's letter:

Quote:
"I would like to draw your attention to the basis of our oneness. This is fundamental. The basis of our oneness is the forsaking of sins. Please bear in mind that God's children are divided today because of the problem of sins. The matter of sins is always implicated. Because of many sins, there are many divisions. Many of God's children have a basic misunderstanding; they think that patience and forbearance are the basis of oneness. There is no such thing as this. The Bible never takes patience or forbearance as the basis of our oneness. The Bible always takes the forsaking of sins as the basis of our oneness.

If anyone wants to have fellowship with God today, he must walk in the light. We will have fellowship with one another when we are in the light. We may say that fellowship is the basis of our oneness, but the basis of fellowship is our dealing with sin and our removal of sin. When all of us are in God's light, we have fellowship one with another. Other than this, there is no fellowship.

…So, the basis of oneness is not in tolerating sin but in judging sin. There is no possibility of oneness between those who judge and those who do not judge. If anyone desires to seek oneness with God’s children, he must judge sin with all the children of God. If some judge sin and others do not, can there be oneness? But it is right to judge sin. He who judges sin is one with all who judge sin. May God be merciful to him who does not judge sin that he too may rise up and judge.


(Watchman Nee, Love One Another, pp. 148-151)
Oh my! This shines a whole new light on the events of the late 1980's regarding those who overlooked the recurring sin and thought it best to "became like an ostrich with their head in the sand". I would ask the BB's: Dear ones, who were the real divisive ones in the late 1980's? I know you think very hightly of WN, so I beg you to please take heed to this quotation in brother Steve's letter. If even WN's words find you wanting, how much more may the True Judge's assessment of your words and actions in the late 1980's find you sadly wanting?

Dear BB's: REPENT!! Repent while there is still time to repent!!
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

Quote:
kistheson:
I would ask the BB's: Dear ones, who were the real divisive ones in the late 1980's?
That would be the divide ones ; the ones pulling a bait and switch, or selling one thing and delivering another. Outer division in a system comes from inner division in the system.

When we're told that God's eternal purpose is the outpouring of God's Spirit, into human spirits, and then what's delivered is spirit delivered from an earthly command center, we've been sold a deceptive/defective product.

So it starts out divided, and the fruit of it is divided.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

As I was listening to Art Katz's message "What if?" http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_John...Intro_E032.mp3

I realized why Ron spoke so negatively about Steve Isitt. Man by nature do not have the stomach for truth. Our spirit recognizes truth, but our fallen man reacts against it.
Art's example was the Dachau Concentration camp. If you go there now, everything is tidied up. Hardly a resemblance of 1945. In our fallen nature the easy path is to sweep things under the rug.

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Old 11-21-2009, 12:49 PM   #11
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Default Understanding Man of Death Reaction

To get a better understanding on Ron Kangas' characterizing Steve Isitt as "man of death", one would need to listen to Bill Freeman's message on Need for Transparent Relationships which can be heard at http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/_audi...CenturyOfSelf/

Bill Freeman spoke this word in 1984 and this specific portion is from verse references in Luke 11: 20-23. It is what Bill Freeman called "a settled down mind"

Luke 11: 20-23

But if I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.
But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he has relied and distributes his plunder.
He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with me, scatters.

Bill speaks the word armed (verse 21) is in the perfect tense. In the Greek implying a settled state. The possessions are at peace. “Don’t change me. Don’t disturb my way of thinking. My way of thinking has been intact for years. It’s all here in peace. I’ve reasoned a certain way. I’ve thought a certain way. I’ve expressed myself a certain way. I’ve related to people in a certain way. I’ve been well fortified and armed.” This is the settled down mind. In 2 Corinthians 10:4 Paul calls this a stronghold.

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Old 12-24-2009, 08:35 AM   #12
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Default The Scriptural Way To Deal with Opposers

Indiana, considering how the system operates of not responding to opposers consider what a guest of this forum suggested to me.

He has pointed out to me how the book of Nehemiah details the scriptural way to deal with opposers:

Nehemiah 6:1-4

1 Now it came to pass, when it was reported to Sanballat and Tobiah, and to Geshem the Arabian, and unto the rest of our enemies, that I had builded the wall, and that there was no breach left therein; (though even unto that time I had not set up the doors in the gates;.)
2 that Sanballat and Geshem sent unto me, saying, Come, let us meet together in one of the villages in the plain of Ono. But they thought to do me mischief.
3 And I sent messengers unto them, saying, I am doing a great work, so that I cannot come down: why should the work cease, whilst I leave it, and come down to you?
4 And they sent unto me four times after this sort; and I answered them after the same manner.

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Old 12-26-2009, 01:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

Hi everyone, I have graduated from being a guest of this excellent forum - to becoming a member.

What Terry mentioned below was brought to my attention first through a random message on the internet. Here is a link to that particular audio by Pastor Steve Nelson:
http://blendedbody.com/Slander/

Any who have some experience with trying to report deviation in the local churches should be absolutely amazed by what you hear in the linked audio! When it comes to properly dealing with problems, this young sounding pastor causes all the leading ones in the [Western] Lord's recovery to look like toddlers by comparison! And what seems to be totally missing from his words and tone is any whiff of THE FEAR OF MAN!

It is very worrisome to realize that over the years we brothers became deaf and dumb acceptors [even enablers] of a gradually deteriorating quality of leadership. To get ourselves fully awakened, we may need to pass around some strong smelling salts - like this brother's word!
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Old 12-26-2009, 04:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

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Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe View Post
Hi everyone, I have graduated from being a guest of this excellent forum - to becoming a member.

What Terry mentioned below was brought to my attention first through a random message on the internet. Here is a link to that particular audio by Pastor Steve Nelson:
http://blendedbody.com/Slander/
PriestlyScribe, welcome to the forum. I did listen to the audio. Based on the pastor's speaking, a scriptural approach was taken towards the offending brother:

Matthew 18:15-17

15And if thy brother sin against thee, go, show him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.

Nehemiah 5:7
Then I consulted with myself, and contended with the nobles and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I held a great assembly against them.

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Old 12-28-2009, 06:05 PM   #15
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

I have no intention to give brother Ron a pass by posting this, but the following portion from Glenn Hendrickson's blog, illustrates another clear case (outside the realm of the local churches) where leaders have not only employed an "ostrich" type of wrong response to reported concerns, but they have pressured followers to do likewise. So, this obviously is not exclusively a "local church" type of response. Rather, this may simply be a natural fallen human dynamic which can be detected within many human (natural) organizations - religious or secular. For more reading regarding this psychological dynamic, check out Gerald W. Tritle's excellent article on "groupthink".

Now for Nehemiah to be "voluntarily-vitally" concerned about the condition of God's returned remnant, we have to assume that he possessed the OT equivalent of the "Mind of Christ". Hence, it follows that his pattern of confronting opposing views and conflicting interests was also with bold & godly forthrightness instead of with cowardly withdrawal - like we see with many of the blended brothers, Ron K. in particular.

By the way, I believe that Watchman Nee touched the root of this issue when he targeted the elders "boasting and withdrawing" FLESH in this short portion from the book, --> The Assembly Life.
(should include coworkers & Apostles too)

From the New Testament we never see the Apostles sweep anything under the rug - except maybe in Acts 15. Real god-men will reply to letters of concern and will not reject them "out-of-hand" when they are likely to contain words which can make one feel uncomfortable. Words that require an action on the reader's part, i.e. - THE WORD OF THE TRUTH!

Laser-logic from Glenn Hendrickson's Blog:
"I feel as though I have been asked not to read certain things which I would be unable to identify without reading it! As absurd as it sounds my church, Faith Community Church in Irvine, has issued a letter in the Sunday (April 6th) announcements asking us to not read blogs, emails or websites which attack "FCC." In addition I am not to "receive any letters or calls from them." Not only is reading forbidden, now I am not to pick up the phone? Do I need to get the phone numbers of these people so I can not answer when they call?"

"In the letter it makes reference to Nehemiah and his dealings with Sanballat. What strikes me as a disjunct from the text of Scripture is that Nehemiah was sent messages four times (Neh. 6:4). Nehemiah did not ignore them, He answered them! His answers were consistent and coherent, for "[he] answered them in the same way" (v. 4). The fifth letter from Sanballat is forever recorded in Holy Scripture (Neh. 6:6-7). Please someone tell me why Nehemiah was at liberty to read and reply to at least 5 letters, why we can read the fifth letter as recorded in the Bible which we all cherish, why we can read Nehemiah's reply (v. 8), but I am not allowed to read criticisms about my church? If anything, this gives Dr. Bob biblical warrant to explain himself and correct those who lie about him." more....
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Last edited by PriestlyScribe; 12-28-2009 at 06:09 PM. Reason: forgot to add final link to full quote from external blog
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

Indiana, no need for vindication from our natural man. May the blessing our Lord Jesus spoke in Luke 6:22 be your organic reality.

"Blessed are you when men hate you and when they separate you from them and reproach you and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man's Sake"

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Old 01-14-2010, 07:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: Understanding Man of Death Reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Bill speaks the word armed (verse 21) is in the perfect tense. In the Greek implying a settled state. The possessions are at peace. “Don’t change me. Don’t disturb my way of thinking. My way of thinking has been intact for years. It’s all here in peace. I’ve reasoned a certain way. I’ve thought a certain way. I’ve expressed myself a certain way. I’ve related to people in a certain way. I’ve been well fortified and armed.” This is the settled down mind. In 2 Corinthians 10:4 Paul calls this a stronghold.
Terry, tonight I located a very similar portion in Volume One of the Collected Works of Watchman Nee.
on Page 99, I found the following...
E. His (satan's) People
(1) Satan works within man's heart, yet man is not aware of it. "The spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2).
(2) He blinds man's eyes. "The god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers" (2 Cor. 4:4).
(3) He gives a false peace. "When the strong man, fully armed, guards his own homestead, his possessions are in peace" (Luke 11:21). Those who are under the authority of Satan think that they have great peace. Little do they realize that this peace is merely the peace of being free from trouble; it is not the true peace and blessing of a Christian.
(4) He secretly causes men to oppose the truth. "In meekness correcting those who oppose [the truth], if perhaps...they may return to soberness out of the snare of the devil, having been caught alive by him, unto His will" (2 Tim. 2:25-26). There are numerous people who rebel against and oppose the truth. Actually, they are deceived by the devil and are in his snare!

And, in case some readers are having trouble finding Bill's recorded Messages, here are the direct links:
P.S.
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Therefore seeing we have this ministry, even as we obtained mercy, we faint not; but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. [2 Cor 4:1-2 ASV] - OUR WEBSITES - OUR FAVORITE SONG, ''I Abdicate''
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Old 01-26-2010, 08:59 AM   #18
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Default Re: Response to Bro. Kangas by a sister

Letter from a sister formerly in the church in Berkeley 1975-1978


Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 04:34:03 -0700
Subject: Re: FW: Ron Kangas Letter

Hi Steve,

This was quite a thoughtful letter you wrote. By now I have also skimmed through the previous email attachment you sent entitled Twenty Five Years in the New Way. Since I wasn't around for the New Way wave, I have a hard time getting into all the details of it, so please forgive me for not reading that document in its entirety. I must admit that I am curious to know whatever happened to John So. When I was first in the church, I remember hearing incredible stories about his days in San Francisco and how on fire for God he was.

It is completely tragic that Ron did not respond to your letter. It makes me wonder if he is even truly a brother in the Lord.... I guess that's for the Lord alone to judge after all is said and done. But all of this exchange has prompted me to really ponder what is really going on behind the scenes. I can't help but question if these "brothers" (including WL) actually know/knew the same Lord Jesus I know! Perhaps they did at one time know Him, but strayed from the truth? Perhaps selfish ambition came in and they were tempted? Maybe actual demon spirits came in an seduced them, so that, like the Pharisees, they still look religious, but they are of a different spirit, not the Holy Spirit? Perhaps, like the Pharisees, they truly believe they are honoring God by behaving in the way they are behaving? Whatever the case, may God have mercy on them!

Unfortunately I have to agree that indeed it seems that the eight years you spent sincerely attempting reconciliation between those who were "in" and those who were "out" of the recovery appears to have been completely futile. Yet I believe the Lord has been using your giftings in communication to help many of us out here understand some things we would never otherwise "get." I know it has been very encouraging for me to put together certain puzzle pieces that previously remained a mystery to me as far as the LC is concerned.

So it looks like the next piece I'll be reading of yours in the next few days is what you describe as the first thing you wrote. I'm looking forward to it!

Aloha,
Carolyn (my response below)

Carolyn, John So is living in San Francisco with his wife. He travels to fellowship with saints and churches that have gone on in the way they new before the New Way came in. He ascribes to the ground of oneness teaching. I talked to him on the phone once in 2005 and wrote two emails. He is not open to address matters of the past, saying "I don't want to fight". He became so disillusioned by Witness Lee and events that transpired in the new way, especially that took place between him (Stuttgart) and LSM and England and LSM. But, "if the brothers want to repent, have them give me a call", he said.

What you said about seducing spirits among the leaders has much merit. They are under Satan's domination in a spiritual stronghold. They cannot break through. So, even though truth is spoken to them, it looks like a lie and an attack. How can God's oracle be wrong? How can the God-men be wrong? (blending brothers)

Refer to _________ letter in the attachment written nine years ago - 2001

Hi Steve. I felt I needed sit on (pray on) what you shared. Admittedly I have a lot of mixed feelings. I want my Lord’s feeling. I was in leadership for fifteen years in a wide variety of churches. I saw and heard a lot of things. Now it’s been fifteen years since I’ve been out of the garlic room. I am no longer as idealistic as I once was. I am probably now too realistic for simple faith to work. I am working on that. Everything I learned about LC authority, rank and file, how dissenters were dealt with, taught me this: no one admits to wrongdoing. The Church way is right, everyone else is wrong. The slightest hint of criticism was ground for being marked out and destroyed. Bro. Lee once said in an elders’ meeting that any elder that criticized the lead was finished. His career was over. “If you can’t agree”, he said, “be a gentleman and leave”. Oneness was always with W. Lee and the “Lord’s move”. Opposers and dissenters were always the enemy to be overcome. Their “truth system” in the LC does not allow any ground or room for making mistakes or being wrong. How can they admit to mistakes? This is the “Lord’s recovery”. They were just following Brother Lee who is God’s man on the earth today. Their denial factor is HUGE!!

I say all that to say this: It may take years of persistent praying and interceding for those walls to crack or come down as Bill Mallon shared. It may take some significant suffering, affliction, trials, and or pain to bring them to any table of fellowship. Your burden is right; your attitude is right….but how can the godmen be wrong?? I hate to say this and I don’t want to daunt your mission in any way; but, I don’t think 1,000 testimonies would put a dent in that iron wall of self-righteousness. They have a well-defended castle. Their attorney/generals are battle tested.

God can touch their heart and make them soft. Maybe He is, and they are, and I don’t see it. Maybe you have heard of a crack in their armor. Maybe they are praying to the Lord right now how they can win us all back. To tell you the truth, most I know don’t want to go back EVER!

I, too, love the brothers, and miss the fellowship of the dear saints, our friends, who we fought the battle with for many years. Dave Higgins has asked me to come back. He said they desperately need shepherds. Mel Porter has asked me to come back for the same reason.

I asked how I can assist you. At this point, all I can commit to is to pray. The other matters I will address in another letter next week.

Eventually, we will all be reconciled. What a glory to the Lord for the breach to be healed now in Satan’s territory, to his shame. Read Is. 58:1-12…“now unto Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think.”
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Old 04-11-2011, 05:59 PM   #19
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Hello, an active local church member here and proud of it. I've been lurking this forum for some time now and have not seen anything new or interesting. So, I will like to ask, what happend to "Steve Isitt vs Ron Kangas et. al."? Any news? The other forum is very quiet, no post on the subject since April 1.

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Old 04-23-2011, 05:16 PM   #20
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Hello, an active local church member here and proud of it. I've been lurking this forum for some time now and have not seen anything new or interesting. So, I will like to ask, what happend to "Steve Isitt vs Ron Kangas et. al."? Any news? The other forum is very quiet, no post on the subject since April 1.

The Lurker
Greetings active local church member,

It appears as though nothing is happening. DOA.

It also seems as though the LC leadership is showing the greatest amount of indifference towards Steve Isitt. To ignore a brother in Christ that is concerned for the LC is truely sad. At least that is my humble opinion.

Lurker, if you don't mind answering a question for me?

Do you believe the Local Churches have the Hi-Peak gospel? That their gospel some how is higher than Christians outside of the LC?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

May our God of Grace and Mercy supply all your needs daily in Him!

Don Jr.
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1If the LORD does not build the house,
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Old 04-23-2011, 06:03 PM   #21
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Lurker, if you don't mind answering a question for me?

Do you believe the Local Churches have the Hi-Peak gospel? That their gospel some how is higher than Christians outside of the LC?

Thank you in advance for your reply.
Is this question directed to the forum?
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:41 PM   #22
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Is this question directed to the forum?
ZNP, not at all.

It was directed to the lurker aka current active member of the local churches.

Thanks,

Don Jr
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Old 04-24-2011, 12:24 PM   #23
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Lurker, if you don't mind answering a question for me?

Do you believe the Local Churches have the Hi-Peak gospel? That their gospel some how is higher than Christians outside of the LC?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

May our God of Grace and Mercy supply all your needs daily in Him!

Don Jr.
Amen Don! May I ask what is the high peak gospel to you? My mind has been opened up what the high peak gospel is. What my mind sees is also the vision I see.
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Old 04-25-2011, 10:25 AM   #24
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manna-man (Don Jr.)

I don't mind answering your question. Yes. I believe that the churches in in the Lord's recovery have hi-peak gospel/truth/divine revelation. Other believers have something of it, but not as crystal clear as in the Lord's recovery.

Something about me:
1. Prior to enter into the Lord's recovery, I am a third generation Pentecostal.
2. My grandfather (dad side), was a semi-missionary, lead-preacher and lead pastor of a Pentecostal group. He also was in the board of one of the main Pentecostal councils of the country (which country, I won't tell). My dad was on his way to be a prominent Pentecostal pastor (he now meets with in the Lord's recovery).
3. On the other side (mom side) my grandparents were Preachers/Pastors of a different Pentecostal group and my mom lead church service.
4. My grandparents were not wishy-washy believers. They were serious believers, strong in their faith, and clear in regards to what is important, the Word of God.
5. I will not dared to consider myself to be a Timothy, but from my childhood I've been in an environment were 30 minutes of Bible reading (at 5am, 10am, 3pm, 6pm, 10pm) followed by prayer was practice. The gospel was proclaimed in season and out of season. Visiting the ill, giving to the poor and cooking for the hungry was a great joy and honor.

I know from first hand what true Christian fellowship can offer and do. I'm grateful for my up-bring, but will never trade what I now have in the Lord's recovery. I lurk in this forum as well as the other for two reasons: 1. i'm taking care of new ones in my locality and some found out about the two forum, so i need to read what you guys say in order to know haw to inoculate them; 2. in Paul's word, "I marvel" (Galatians 1:6) who people can turn away from something so awesome as the Lord's recovery, deserting the grace of Christ and backsliding to wherever you are.

Don't think I'll post aging.

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:03 PM   #25
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Amen Don! May I ask what is the high peak gospel to you? My mind has been opened up what the high peak gospel is. What my mind sees is also the vision I see.
Greetings Terry,

My definition of the high peak-gospel is Christ Crucified for our sins so that we may be able to approach Him in boldness after being released from our guilt. This Gospel is simply the plain truth.

I have a problem with those that use it in the way it was intended to be used'

There are some out there that proclaim they are better because of "Their Reality/Wisdom in Christ" that they are the sole remnant that is worthy to carry the testimony of God to the nations.

These ones claim to be standing on the proper ground in Christ yet deny their fellow brothers.

These are modern day Pharasees/Religious that do more harm than good by stoning those very ones with their religious knowledge and zeal that Jesus Christ died for.

These are the ones who are be-witched by the same law they were set free from by His work on the cross.

I have a problem with the term high peak because of the way it is used and why it is used.

This is why I asked the question, hoping for a humble responce that wasn't laced with religious pride.

Peace to you brother Terry,

Don jr.
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Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
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Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:13 PM   #26
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Greetings Terry, My definition of the high peak-gospel is Christ Crucified for our sins so that we may be able to approach Him in boldness after being released from our guilt. This Gospel is simply the plain truth.
Yes I very much dislike the term ("High Peaks Gospel" or "High Peak Truths"). It is not scriptural and it reeks of pride. And what does it say? That some truths of the gospel are not high revelations? Is it disrespectful to the Lord's earthly ministry or is it trying to merely be disrespectful to the Christians who have gone before us? I have used the terms in my writing a few times, always in quotes, and always as an example of the hubris of the LSM. According to the NT the heavens rejoice when one sinner repents, but apparently to the LSM that is not "the high peak revelation". This term makes me ashamed to have ever been involved with the LSM.
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:06 PM   #27
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manna-man (Don Jr.)

I don't mind answering your question. Yes. I believe that the churches in in the Lord's recovery have hi-peak gospel/truth/divine revelation. Other believers have something of it, but not as crystal clear as in the Lord's recovery.

Something about me:
1. Prior to enter into the Lord's recovery, I am a third generation Pentecostal.
2. My grandfather (dad side), was a semi-missionary, lead-preacher and lead pastor of a Pentecostal group. He also was in the board of one of the main Pentecostal councils of the country (which country, I won't tell). My dad was on his way to be a prominent Pentecostal pastor (he now meets with in the Lord's recovery).
3. On the other side (mom side) my grandparents were Preachers/Pastors of a different Pentecostal group and my mom lead church service.
4. My grandparents were not wishy-washy believers. They were serious believers, strong in their faith, and clear in regards to what is important, the Word of God.
5. I will not dared to consider myself to be a Timothy, but from my childhood I've been in an environment were 30 minutes of Bible reading (at 5am, 10am, 3pm, 6pm, 10pm) followed by prayer was practice. The gospel was proclaimed in season and out of season. Visiting the ill, giving to the poor and cooking for the hungry was a great joy and honor.

I know from first hand what true Christian fellowship can offer and do. I'm grateful for my up-bring, but will never trade what I now have in the Lord's recovery. I lurk in this forum as well as the other for two reasons: 1. i'm taking care of new ones in my locality and some found out about the two forum, so i need to read what you guys say in order to know haw to inoculate them; 2. in Paul's word, "I marvel" (Galatians 1:6) who people can turn away from something so awesome as the Lord's recovery, deserting the grace of Christ and backsliding to wherever you are.

Don't think I'll post aging.

The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
The Lurker
I may not have such a fine Christian "pedigree" as you have, but I did devote my best years to the Recovery. There were many very positive things concerning the saints, but for conscience sake, I had to depart ways from leaders who far too often were abusive to the flock.

You have not told us where you are from, but I do know that the Recovery is not in an homogenous state. Regions and localities can vary widely, as do people, which explains hos each person's perspective can differ so widely. Places like Malaysia are thriving while some places are dying.

What has troubled me so greatly is the abusive ways WL and LSM has treated those who spoke up about wrong doings at LSM. Some of these things happened many years ago, but were hidden from the saints, hence when the actual events are made known, a kind of righteous indignation rose up within me. I discovered that godliness at LSM was just a facade, much like the Pharisees of old.

Dear Guest, "The Lurker," since you have read some of these reports on these forums, how do you reconcile these things knowing that righteousness and lawlessness have no portion together, neither do light and darkness have any fellowship together? (II Cor 6.14)
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Old 04-25-2011, 06:41 PM   #28
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Dear Brother Lurker,

If in fact you do have the high peak gospel, could you define it? I'm sure those new ones in your care would be interested to see how you would answer as well. What is the high peak gospel, And just how much more crystal clear does it need to be besides what I defined previously two or three posts earlier?

I must declare that I have not turned away from My Lords ministry, but I have turned my back to a man and his ministry. A ministry that is bigoted from the get go. A ministry so intolerant that instead of reaching out to base men who could and would appreciate some of what you have to offer instead, cries out from their meeting halls "Poor Poor Christianity!" The Pharasees did as much. What a shame.

Peace and Mercy and patience abide on you dear brother!

Don Jr.
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Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
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Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 04-25-2011, 07:55 PM   #29
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Something about me:
5. I will not dared to consider myself to be a Timothy, but from my childhood I've been in an environment were 30 minutes of Bible reading (at 5am, 10am, 3pm, 6pm, 10pm) followed by prayer was practice. The gospel was proclaimed in season and out of season. Visiting the ill, giving to the poor and cooking for the hungry was a great joy and honor.


The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
The Lurker
Thank you for telling about yourself. Your experience I have quoted, this is the churchlife. It begins in the home. Where one happens to meet is irrelevant. What's relevant is the churchlife beginning at home.
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Old 04-25-2011, 08:42 PM   #30
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Greetings Terry,

My definition of the high peak-gospel is Christ Crucified for our sins so that we may be able to approach Him in boldness after being released from our guilt. This Gospel is simply the plain truth.

I have a problem with those that use it in the way it was intended to be used'

I have a problem with the term high peak because of the way it is used and why it is used.
Brother Donnie,
I don't have a definition. Something I've seen over the last year is a deficiency in the Living Stream ministry oriented local churches that I haven't seen in several churches in my area. That is the matter of the love of Christ. I have not seen this in the local churches. When I mention loving your neighbor or loving your enemies, the word that cmes full circle is trust. Whether or not a brother or sister can be trusted, is the degree love. In this sense there's a natural, conditional love mentioned in the Gospel of Luke.

Luke 6:32
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them."

To have the love of Christ, you'd have to refer to Luke 6:27
"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,"
or another passage in Luke 10 where Jesus speaks of the Good Samaritan parable. Loving your neighbor is to show mercy. In verse 27 of this chapter,
"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND ; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

On at least three occasions in the locality where I last met, there was belittling of Christians outside the LSM fellowship. We see so much and Christianity sees so little. In this sense Living Stream Ministry's high peak ministry is as a sequoia or a redwood tree whereas Jesus Christ is as a lowly vine; spreading out laterally and not vertically.

In Witness Lee's ministry he did speak a Word of Love which I've posted on. What happened to that word? Has it become a mere footnote to his ministry?
There has been ample opportunity for the churches through the ministry to get back on course. Here's a youtube video of Witness Lee from his final conference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swcs5pbzoDI

What Witness Lee spoke is evident and truly apparent. It is also in black and white how Living Stream translated his words.

This is from chapter 6 of the High Peaks book The Experience of God's Organic Salvation Equaling Reigning in Christ's Life. As the video points out there was heavy editing done on what was actually spoken which took brother Lee's words out of context. Witness Lee was calling for the brothers in the local churches to examine where we were wrong and to do so in mutual fellowship. Since his speaking wasn't brought back to the churches verbatim and since his speaking wasn't translated verbatim, how could have his burden been carried out?

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." 1 Corinthians 13:1

Last edited by Terry; 04-25-2011 at 08:52 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 04-26-2011, 07:01 AM   #31
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Brother Donnie,
I don't have a definition. Something I've seen over the last year is a deficiency in the Living Stream ministry oriented local churches that I haven't seen in several churches in my area.
Morning Brother Terry,

Actually the term "High Peak Gospel" is something made up.
It is code for: We are special, we are the only ones standing on the proper ground in Christ. It also means that all others apart from them have fallen into a depraved spiritual state and the only way to remedy their situation is to receive their doctrine. (There are many precious saints in the Lords Recovery, whether they understand at all that this teaching is divisive in the universal body, only The Lord Knows.) This doctrine is narrow minded. It teaches that God is limited because of mankind and his actions.

It means nothing to anyone outside of the Local Churches. Now, if there was such a term out there in the rest of Christianity it most likely would be:
" The High Calling." because our high calling is to Hear, believe and receive and then ultimately obey/abide and preach Christ Crucified.

I don't make it a habit to use the words high peak gospel. Although I have heard them. I simply was fishing and hoping for light/truth to come from this covert member that wanted to know more about those on this forum.

Until the whole world hears,

Don Jr.
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Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
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Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:23 AM   #32
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Don I remember clearly back in the 70s we were driving to a conference in Austin Tx. We were driving an old American car owned by a brother named Hector when the car just up and died as we were driving along at 45 or 50. He wasn't phased, opened the hood, looked around a little and determined that the points had frozen. In this car he traveled with an extra set. So he pulls out a little metal part, couldn't have weighed more than an ounce or two, but because of it the entire car weighing more than a ton had come to an abrupt stop.

Regardless of what truths you want to classify as "high peaks" you wind up demeaning the other truths. All of Christianity has the truth concerning Christ died for our sins. Without that truth how does anything work? So if that truth is not high peaks how foolish is that?

Paul said you could know all mysteries but without love it is nothing. In Revelation it says that in Thyatyra there were some that would walk with the Lord in white because "they didn't know the deep things of Satan". So knowing that we need to love the Lord with all our heart and to love one another seems to be sufficient, even if you don't know all mysteries. Clearly, not knowing some mysteries can be a very good thing.

Then of course there is Laodicea that seemed to think they were rich and knew all mysteries and yet were wretched and poor.

On the one hand I love the ministry of the apostle Paul, I love the mysteries of Christ and the Church, but let's be real. The minute someone tries to make those mysteries into "high peak truths" that separate them from the rest of the Body of Christ they have fallen into a trap.
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:55 AM   #33
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ZNP,

I don't end up demeaning anything. Only one making assumptions can do that. I'm just stating facts as I understand them. Imagine if you will, that I could convey everything in one paragraph. We wouldn't be having this conversation right now because your understanding would be complete. But we know that is not the real situation here don't we?

But we know there is a sequence/order to how we grow. First we hear, then we believe and then receive and finally obey/abide. Does this explain everything? Of course it doesn't. But if we stay true/heed our Lord we can understand more.

It wasn't my intention to really define "High Peak" it was my intention to expose it. For it is clear that anyone that has received it has cut themselves off and is denying themselves the balance of riches from the vine.(and that's putting it nicely.)

Much grace to you,

Don Jr.
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Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
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Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:24 AM   #34
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ZNP,

I don't end up demeaning anything. Only one making assumptions can do that. I'm just stating facts as I understand them.
It wasn't my intention to really define "High Peak" it was my intention to expose it. For it is clear that anyone that has received it has cut themselves off and is denying themselves the balance of riches from the vine.(and that's putting it nicely.)

Much grace to you,

Don Jr.
Brother Don,
I didn't receive ZNP's post being directed at you. It's the phrase high peaks that is demeaning. It's demeaning of what Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension is all about. It's demeaning of basic Christian fundamentals. SO much has been glossed over. As I have seen it expressed in prophesying meetings, the phrase has muted a speaking, but exalted a ministry through doctrine as a means to differentiate Living Stream Ministry churches from the rest of Christianity.
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Old 04-26-2011, 10:53 AM   #35
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I hear ya Terry, No offense was taken. ZNP is the bomb in my eyes.

Maybe I misunderstood what he meant by " the truths you want to classify as high peaks"

Nevertheless, I get it. The High Peak doctrine erodes unity in the body of Christ. I think that is exactly what I've been trying to convey all this while.

Peace,

Don Jr
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Proverbs 15:22
Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellers they are established.

Character is much easier kept than recovered.
Thomas Paine.

Psalm 127 ►
Good News Translation
In Praise of God's Goodness to
1If the LORD does not build the house,
the work of the builders is useless;
if the LORD does not protect the city,
it does no good for the sentries to stand guard.
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Old 04-26-2011, 06:09 PM   #36
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Hello, an active local church member here and proud of it.

The Lurker
Thank you for your honesty. Undoubtedly Pride is the chief characteristic of the LSM churches, themselves built upon the proud words of Witness Lee. Neither God nor the Saints here care for your pedigree. If you are so well read of the Word, surely you know that of all men, Paul had cause to boast - yet he accounted himself as lesser than the least of all the saints.

You cannot inoculate people from the testimonies of their brethren and from the truth shared in Love. Surely you can 'spin' what you hear, but that is the extent of what you can do.

Be careful in your handling of fellow believers. Christ has promised that we will answer for it.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast
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Old 04-26-2011, 07:17 PM   #37
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On the one hand I love the ministry of the apostle Paul, I love the mysteries of Christ and the Church, but let's be real. The minute someone tries to make those mysteries into "high peak truths" that separate them from the rest of the Body of Christ they have fallen into a trap.
If there is a high peak, it must be "Christ and Him crucified." Nothing can be deeper or more mysterious than that.

Yet, we considered the initial faith as so common. We demeaned the rest of the body of Christ for "going to heaven."

For years we struggled with the "high peak" saying. Firstly, if it was so crucial, why was it not in the scripture? We somehow prided ourselves that God had kept this highest truth just for us in these final days. Personally, I had hoped to see some good fruit from these "high peaks." Even something little. But I saw none. No blessing and no fruit. Instead backbiting and suspicious innuendo ending in quarantines.

You shall know the teaching by its fruits.
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Old 04-26-2011, 08:23 PM   #38
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If there is a high peak, it must be "Christ and Him crucified." Nothing can be deeper or more mysterious than that.

Yet, we considered the initial faith as so common. We demeaned the rest of the body of Christ for "going to heaven."

For years we struggled with the "high peak" saying. Firstly, if it was so crucial, why was it not in the scripture? We somehow prided ourselves that God had kept this highest truth just for us in these final days. Personally, I had hoped to see some good fruit from these "high peaks." Even something little. But I saw none. No blessing and no fruit. Instead backbiting and suspicious innuendo ending in quarantines.

You shall know the teaching by its fruits.
Amen Ohio.

Christ Crucified is the fulfillment/consummation of Gods plan for us. To God and us what could be higher?

I guess if I had to find a word to replace "High Peak" it would have to be "arrogance" Yeah....The arrogance doctrine.

C~ya!

Don Jr
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:26 AM   #39
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I believe that the churches in in the Lord's recovery have hi-peak gospel/truth/divine revelation. Other believers have something of it, but not as crystal clear as in the Lord's recovery.
Dear Lurker,

Were the Spirit to prompt a brother to write you, He might say, "To the messenger (angel) of the assembly in _____, affiliated with the ministry of the Blended Brothers *,

"I know your works, and your labors, and your seven feasts and trainings, and your publishing house, and your web sites, and your publications, and your teachings. Your labors are great, relatively speaking. But I have something against you. You compare yourselves with others. You think you are rich, and others are not as rich as you. In this you err, like the man who thanked God that he was not like the other man nearby, a sinner (Luke 18:9-14)."

"You have not taken to heart the message of the Son, Jesus the Firstborn from the dead. He clearly taught that if you think you see, then your blindness remains (John 9:41). Later, He had to chastise the saints in Laodicea (Revelations 3) who had not learned from the earlier tragedy of the Pharisees."

"So let go of your high truths, which lead both you and your followers into the ditch. The only truth is found in Jesus Christ, not in a teaching or a doctrine. Stop thinking you know so much, and I will come and teach you My ways, and My paths."

"Because nobody knows My paths. They are inscrutable to men. Remember John 3:8, and stop thinking that your doctrines can put Me in a box. You'll end up with an empty box, worshipping it as if it were God. Let go of your laborious and well-intentioned creation, and turn to the Creator of all."

Or something like that.

Grace to you from your fellow lurker.

aron

* You have to append the address to the assembly there in ______ with "...affiliated with the ministry of the Blended Brothers" because Lurker's fellowship doesn't recognize any assembly unless it is affiliated with the Blended Brothers. Other fellowships meet according to geography (the church in Grovers Corners) but don't claim affiliation (read: submission) to "the ministry of the age" and so are disqualified in their eyes. Others likewise claim affiliation with the ministries of Mssrs. Nee and Lee, but they are not submissive to the current curators of Mr. Lee's ministry in Anaheim, the Blendeds. So in order to reach Lurker et al with a message you have to tag their fellowship with its affiliation.
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:42 PM   #40
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I lurk in this forum as well as the other for two reasons: 1. i'm taking care of new ones in my locality and some found out about the two forum, so i need to read what you guys say in order to know haw to inoculate them; 2. in Paul's word, "I marvel" (Galatians 1:6) who people can turn away from something so awesome as the Lord's recovery, deserting the grace of Christ and backsliding to wherever you are.
I lurk in this forum not to convince others that they are somehow in need of (my) correction. Rather I post to de-toxify myself from bad ideas. Bad ideas, once uncritically accepted, lead to bad thinking and erroneous rationalizations, which lead to bad behavior explained away, and thus repeated interminably.

Here is an example: the ministry of a man, above, being equated to "the grace of Christ". I left the ministry of one man, but have not left the grace of Christ. When I left the unbalanced fixation on one man's ministry, I began to see things, in the Bible, that I could not have perceived under the blinders of his teaching.

One example is the "ekklesia". Mr. Lee, like many christian scholars, comes to the word "church" from Paul, not from Jesus. They say, "The church is the Body and Bride of Christ". Of course, these notions are correct. But they are incomplete. When Jesus introduced the word in the gospels, He didn't say "I will build My Body", or "I will build My Bride", but "I will build My ekklesia". The word had a meaning already. This is ignored, in the rush to get to Paul. Thus the incompleteness.

The word was used dozens of times in the extant scriptures (OT/Septuagint). Psalms 22:22 is a good example, quoted in Hebrews 2. And Stephen in Acts 7 referred to the ekklesia of Moses and the fathers in the wilderness.

Today, based on their interpretation, they try to have "ekklesia" (meetings) of the "ekklesia" (church), because they don't even understand the word as it was used. Which is okay; it is okay to not understand. The problem I have with the Lee-ites is that they think they do understand. So their blindness remains.

Another example: "oikonomia". Again, the Lee school uses Paul to contravene Jesus' use of the word. Jesus taught many, many parables on stewardship, i.e. the responsibility of a servant to take care of his Master's house. The word stewardship in Greek is "oikonomia". See the parable of the unrighteous steward in Luke 16.

This becomes, through the unbalanced, Paul-fixated focus, something where "...we masticate on the processed Triune God and become God in life and nature and not in the Godhead". And our responsibility to our neighbor is largely ignored, or at least determined by whether or not they are "positive" towards "the ministry".

So yes, I have turned away from something as "awesome" as your organization. But I am not "negative" or an "opposer" or "attacker"; I am just a believer trying to rid myself from bad thinking.
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Old 04-29-2011, 09:17 AM   #41
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One example [of erroneous teaching] is on the "ekklesia"... another example: "oikonomia" ...
Another erroneous teaching is Lee's assertion that "the gates of Hades" attack the ekklesia in Matthew 16. Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of human affairs, especially military affairs, realizes gates are for keeping things in. Gates do not attack.

But Lee taught that the gates of Hades would assault the fortress church, but would not prevail against it. Completely backward. The gates of Hades were the entrance to the underworld, and no one who went in (i.e. died) ever came out. These gates were supposedly built on adamantine pillars, which was the strongest substance in the universe. Jesus was saying that when you gather in My name and agree, even the gates of Hades cannot withstand you. You can go into death itself and pluck out the prisoners.

Satan was on the offensive in Genesis 3... "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--" Romans 5:12. ... and from then on his posture was essentially defensive. Satan had his realm, his kingdom. He was, truly, at Jesus' time, the "ruler of this world" (see John 12).

Then One man, Jesus, came to set us all free. This is the gospel, the good news, and when we gather (this is the ekklesia, or assembly) to affirm, acknowledge, announce, and celebrate this revelation, Satan's kingdom falls. The gates of Hades are broken.

Lee had it backward. I mentioned this on a website populated by a number of Lee-ites, and they said I was speaking nonsense. Then I posted a long article from their allies Bob and Gretchen Passantino, who essentially said the exact same thing as I did. The Lee-ites then quickly lost appetite for the discussion.

See http://www.answers.org/bible/gatesofhell.html

Now, my point is not merely to discuss Lee's errors interpreting the gates of Hades, per se, nor for that matter his take on "ekklesia" or "oikonomia". We all err occasionally in thought and deed; I probably more than most. My point is that presuming to be absent of error is perhaps the worst error of all. The Bible says "We all like sheep have gone astray"; notice it says ''we ... sheep'', not ''we ... goats''. All of the sheep, all of the people of God, err occasionally.

But these Lee-ite posters would not entertain the notion that the teachings of their "oracle" could be imperfect or incomplete. That, to me, is the real tragedy of Mr. Lee's ministry, beyond any single point of doctrine. The real error is not the occasional error, but the refusal to admit the possibility of error.

When that happens, as Jesus put it so well, "your blindness remains". (John 9)
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:32 PM   #42
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Dear manna-man,

My understanding of the high peak gospel is the gospel of grace + the gospel of the kingdom. In a nutshell, Grace saves us from eternal perdition and the law so that we may received God’s life, places us as a member in the Body and causes us to enjoy all the blessings of been in Christ. I learned this in “poor poor Christianity!” The gospel of the kingdom ushers us in the practical way to live out the gospel of grace for the reality of the Body of Christ (functioning of ALL the members), thus hastening Christ second coming. This, I never heard in “poor poor Christianity!” Believing in this view or not depends upon your knowledge and believed of eschatology in relation to God’s kingdom. My advice is if you want to be clear about something in the Bible, well then, read the Bible.

I’ve been researching on http://ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooks.cfm the term “poor Christianity”, and every time Witness Lee said those word, he is speaking of (pay attention because I’ll only say it once) the system and not the people trap in the system. It was all of us (yes I’m including myself) that took those words incorrectly. Our attitude toward fellow believers in Christ was one of belittling them thinking we're superior to them. The funny thing is that all of you here in this forum have something negative to say about the ministry and person of Witness Lee (fellow believer in the Lord), yet some of you dare to say, as NeitherFirstnorLast said in post #36, “be careful in your handling of fellow believers.”

Many of you have said that those in the recovery follow a person rather than the Lord. Well, if you are meeting in your home alone/family then you are not following a man. You are just following yourself detached from the real and practical fellowship of the Body. If you are meeting with a “non-denominational group” (the best group I’ve seen is “home-church movement), whether you like it or not you are following the pastor/minister/elder/bishop/rabbi/preacher. Whether you want to accept it or not , there is no way around it.

No doubt, it is a blessing and honor to be part of God’s move on the earth today. Here in the recovery, I have a sense of purpose and direction. So I’ll say this again for “NeitherFirstnorLast” sake, I’m an active local church member and proud of it. I have no shame in saying those words. I’m just been true to how I feel to spare you all from self humility. When Paul and other characters in the Scriptures displayed humility as a virtue, they did so in a mature state of their life. There is no gain pretending to be something else. I’ve been told before about my pride, but I prefer to be honest, open and transparent as to who I am and where I am in my Christian life for the sake of sanctification, transformation, correction and perfecting. Remember, he who love his soul-life and does not take the cross to lose it now for the Lords sake, but wants to save it, will lose it.

“Spin”? Hummm? Are you speaking from experience. I’ve been lurking this forum before you became a member and I’ve seen all kinds of ‘spin’ here. Some new believes that I’m caring for are confused or have questions when they touch this forum. What kind of testimony is this? I have to know what they are reading in order to know how to inoculate them. There is no need to “spin” anything. No need to convince anybody. Truth sets people free.

Go ahead, ‘spin’ my words.

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Old 05-04-2011, 08:52 AM   #43
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Dear Lurker,

It's also an honor for me to be in God's Move today. And I don't have to join your movement to be in it. I hope you will be honest and acknowledge that. God's move is not reserved to a tiny self-absorbed movement of less than 100,000 people.

The problem with the LRC is not so much the positive things it aspires to, but rather how it denies those things to others or presumes to set the conditions for how those things are dispersed. It thinks it has distribution rights on God.

You are a victim of propaganda, son. Your attitude is sectarian. If you really cared about the "poor" in Christianity, you'd be seeking to feed them. Not calling attention to your riches. You don't know half of what you think you know. Trust me, I was there. You have knowledge, but you don't know the Lord's heart.

You need to pray for clarity. Have you ever really prayed whether the things you are learning are true? Or did you just swallow them because they sounded good?

I challenged one LRCer to pray 10 minutes a day for a month to the Lord asking Him whether what he believed was true. Do you know what he said? He said he didn't need to pray that way. That told me all I needed to know about him.

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Old 05-04-2011, 10:50 AM   #44
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My understanding of the high peak gospel is the gospel of grace + the gospel of the kingdom. In a nutshell, Grace saves us from eternal perdition and the law so that we may received God’s life, places us as a member in the Body and causes us to enjoy all the blessings of been in Christ. I learned this in “poor poor Christianity!” The gospel of the kingdom ushers us in the practical way to live out the gospel of grace for the reality of the Body of Christ (functioning of ALL the members), thus hastening Christ second coming. This, I never heard in “poor poor Christianity!” Believing in this view or not depends upon your knowledge and believed of eschatology in relation to God’s kingdom. My advice is if you want to be clear about something in the Bible, well then, read the Bible.
Dear Lurker,

In many regards, the LC's do have teachings which are never heard in "poor poor Christianity!" In fact, since the movement is so obsessed with teachings, there are many things you will hear in the LC's that you will not hear elsewhere. Much of that is good. If LSM leadership really lived and served according to the "gospel of the kingdom," many of us former members would still be active there, I know I would.

And that is perhaps the most serious problem, in a nutshell, for LSM. Like the Pharisees of old, they proclaimed to have all the wonderful things of God, yet practiced little of it, so the Lord rightfully declared them to be hypocrites. Paul in Romans declares the kingdom of God to be firstly "righteousness." Without righteousness, all our teachings, even though they be the best and the richest and the highest, are just vain. This, sadly, is the hugest indictment of WL and the Blendeds.

I hope you don't think I am "spinning" anything. I actively devoted my best thirty years to Christ and the church, only to begin to study our real history at the outbreak of this latest quarantine. WL and the Blendeds over the years have hidden behind many unrighteousnesses, and then smeared the reputations of any who dared to speak their conscience. Unfortunately, these unrighteousnesses are kept from all the saints. They only get to know the teachings of WL and the Blendeds, not the many unrighteousnesses, which God sees.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:32 PM   #45
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Dear manna-man,

My understanding of the high peak gospel is the gospel of grace + the gospel of the kingdom. In a nutshell, Grace saves us from eternal perdition and the law so that we may received God’s life, places us as a member in the Body and causes us to enjoy all the blessings of been in Christ. I learned this in “poor poor Christianity!” The gospel of the kingdom ushers us in the practical way to live out the gospel of grace for the reality of the Body of Christ (functioning of ALL the members), thus hastening Christ second coming. This, I never heard in “poor poor Christianity!” Believing in this view or not depends upon your knowledge and believed of eschatology in relation to God’s kingdom. My advice is if you want to be clear about something in the Bible, well then, read the Bible.
The Lurker
Hello, I am very glad to have an opportunity to discuss these truths. I believe that the four books of Paul referred to by WL as "the heart of the divine revelation" really touch on these truths. For example, Galatians talks about having Christ revealed in us, and that it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me. It is this revelation that delivers me from "the concision" etc. So this is the practical way to live out the gospel of grace. Ephesians reveals the church as the Body of Christ and as "the one new man" which WL referred to as the highest revelation of the church during the Ephesians training. Repeatedly WL shared that only Paul had the revelation of the church being the Body of Christ, and that the One New Man is even higher. So again, I feel that these revelations must be what they refer to as "the high peak revelation" and what you refer to as the practical way to live out the gospel of grace. Philippians goes into great detail about how we can experience Christ in our life, practically. And Colossians gives a very high revelation concerning the Christ we can experience. "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:". I don't want to bore you but I am hoping that you will agree with me that this is in fact the gospel of the kingdom which you are referring to and which added to the more common gospel of grace comprises these "high peak truths".

I bring this up because in George Mueller's biography there is a story that inspired me. He was running an orphanage in England by faith in the Lord's word "seek ye first the kingdom and all these things shall be added unto you". He had made a vow that the day he could not feed the children would be the day that he would close the orphanage and that day came. it was a Sunday and they came to him saying that there was no food in the kitchen to make dinner. Even if someone walked in at that minute with money to buy food for the hundreds of people it wouldn't matter because in those days the stores were closed on Sunday. So he gathered the staff together for a prayer meeting. As they prayed a knock was heard. A driver was outside with a truck full of meat asking if they wanted it. Apparently he had arrived making a delivery in the town but the store was closed, the car was not refrigerated, and the meat would go bad. So he had asked if there was anyplace he could give the meat away and had been directed to the orphanage. Now to me this story definitely presents a man that "to him to live is Christ". To me this story is glorious because of Christ in him, the hope of Glory. His mission was like the front lines of the gospel, the enemy was trying to put him to an open shame and instead Christ was glorified. This was a result of prayer, faith, and many members, not just him. There were the people in the town that directed the driver to the orphanage, there was the driver whose conscious would not let him just throw the food away, etc. I have read other similar stories as well, some were related by WN concerning different brothers (in Christianity), some were from other biographies.

As for me I also had a similar experience, but I am afraid to say, less glorious. While serving in the training in Taipei I had to leave the country every 6 months because of my visa. I flew to Hong Kong. I was on the way back, had just checked out my hotel and was waiting for the bus to take me to the airport when I remembered I hadn't got my wife a present. I then noticed that across the street there was a woman's clothing store. I went in there and purchased a nice woman's blouse that cost every last penny of Hong Kong money I had. I went back, got on the bus with my ticket and went to the airport. Once at the airport I realized I didn't have the money for the airport tax. I was a missionary, I didn't have a cell phone or credit cards and I didn't have a single penny on me. I couldn't even afford to call my brother in law in Taiwan with the idea that he could pay the tax with a credit card. So I prayed. When I opened my eyes there was a man standing there waiting to talk to me. He said that he and his wife had too many bags to check in and saw that I only had one carry on bag. I told him I would be happy to check his bags on for him if he would pay my tax. I feel the Lord answered my prayer. I was a missionary and He was the choragus (as mentioned in Philippians -- the one that supplies all the needs of the chorus).

So I am sorry, I strongly disagree that the concept of "the practical way to live out the gospel of grace for the reality of the Body of Christ" is not taught in Christianity. That is false. These experiences may be rare in Christianity but they are also rare in the LRC. I find it incredibly arrogant to assume that the LRC has a monopoly on these truths. The mere fact that "this I never heard in Christianity" is hardly evidence that they didn't have the truth, anymore than my saying there are no gold mines on earth because I dug in my back yard and didn't find gold, so therefore there is no point looking anywhere for gold.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:48 PM   #46
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I’ve been researching on http://ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooks.cfm the term “poor Christianity”, and every time Witness Lee said those word, he is speaking of (pay attention because I’ll only say it once) the system and not the people trap in the system. It was all of us (yes I’m including myself) that took those words incorrectly. Our attitude toward fellow believers in Christ was one of belittling them thinking we're superior to them. The funny thing is that all of you here in this forum have something negative to say about the ministry and person of Witness Lee (fellow believer in the Lord), yet some of you dare to say, as NeitherFirstnorLast said in post #36, “be careful in your handling of fellow believers.”

The Lurker
Unfortunately you included me when you said "all of you here in this forum" so I will respond. What are you referring to? I post on two forums, so I am really not sure what it is I have said on this forum that you are referring to. On the other forum I did ask the question if the teaching of one publication is scriptural. That seems like a reasonable question for any Christian to ask. I quoted a number of quotes from WL and tried my best to get the full context (I took these quotes from a Faithful word, so these were quotes that the BBs were using to support this teaching). Concerning his person I have heard others relate the history of JI, or PL, or Daystar, or BM, or things that took place in Taiwan, etc. But if you are accusing me of hypocrisy in treating WL by a different standard than I would treat any other brother or sister please refer me to the post in question.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:56 PM   #47
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Many of you have said that those in the recovery follow a person rather than the Lord. Well, if you are meeting in your home alone/family then you are not following a man. You are just following yourself detached from the real and practical fellowship of the Body. If you are meeting with a “non-denominational group” (the best group I’ve seen is “home-church movement), whether you like it or not you are following the pastor/minister/elder/bishop/rabbi/preacher. Whether you want to accept it or not , there is no way around it.

The Lurker
By this definition everyone that has ever stood in line follows a man. I have two very big issues with the teaching of the LSM, and please note I served in the LSM from the late 70s through the mid 90s. It wasn't continuous, but the great majority of those years I was serving in the LSM.

Issue 1 -- The teaching of the Minister of the Age.
Issue 2 -- The teaching of the one publication.

To me this is much different than having a pastor, or a mentor, or a spiritual older brother. We have discussed these two issues in great detail on another forum and if necessary I'm sure we could carry that discussion over here. But this oversimplification as though the issue is following a man is offensive to me. WL said repeatedly that he had looked at all of Christianity and that there was no oracle, no speaking of God, he looked at the books being published and there was no fresh speaking of God. Now if you don't see that as arrogant you are in denial.
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Old 05-04-2011, 10:52 PM   #48
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No doubt, it is a blessing and honor to be part of God’s move on the earth today. Here in the recovery, I have a sense of purpose and direction. So I’ll say this again for “NeitherFirstnorLast” sake, I’m an active local church member and proud of it. I have no shame in saying those words. I’m just been true to how I feel to spare you all from self humility. When Paul and other characters in the Scriptures displayed humility as a virtue, they did so in a mature state of their life. There is no gain pretending to be something else. I’ve been told before about my pride, but I prefer to be honest, open and transparent as to who I am and where I am in my Christian life for the sake of sanctification, transformation, correction and perfecting. Remember, he who love his soul-life and does not take the cross to lose it now for the Lords sake, but wants to save it, will lose it.
Amen! As members of the Body, we are all part of God's move on the earth. Not through any singular ministry or movement, but through the Body of Christ. Jesus said in the gospels, HE will build his church.
I believe it was in a post of ZNP, he brought up the one publication issue. This is a matter that distinguishes which churches are received/recognized and which ones are not. Something you won't find in the New Testament Ministry nor in Witness Lee's ministry. Since you meet with the local churches and obviously one in your locality, and prefer to be honest, open and transparent, please speak on this matter. What about local churches that won't take a specific publication such as Living Stream? As I see, that should not be grounds from excluding fellowship.
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Old 05-05-2011, 07:02 AM   #49
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Dear manna-man,
My understanding of the high peak gospel is the gospel of grace + the gospel of the kingdom. In a nutshell, Grace saves us from eternal perdition and the law so that we may received God’s life, places us as a member in the Body and causes us to enjoy all the blessings of been in Christ. I learned this in “poor poor Christianity!” The gospel of the kingdom ushers us in the practical way to live out the gospel of grace for the reality of the Body of Christ (functioning of ALL the members), thus hastening Christ second coming. This, I never heard in “poor poor Christianity!” Believing in this view or not depends upon your knowledge and believed of eschatology in relation to God’s kingdom. My advice is if you want to be clear about something in the Bible, well then, read the Bible.
Lurker, EXACTLY!

Believing in this view does depend on your understanding of the gospel/bible. When you started attending the LC's obviously somebody echoed something they had heard and it made sense to you. The issue shouldn't be that you never heard it outside of the Local Churches, it should be that it is in Gods word and always has been.

We all should be careful not to forget that all light comes from our Lord, not from any one ministry. If we boast in anything, it will be Christ Crucified.

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I’ve been researching on http://ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooks.cfm the term “poor Christianity”, and every time Witness Lee said those word, he is speaking of (pay attention because I’ll only say it once) the system and not the people trap in the system. It was all of us (yes I’m including myself) that took those words incorrectly. Our attitude toward fellow believers in Christ was one of belittling them thinking we're superior to them. The funny thing is that all of you here in this forum have something negative to say about the ministry and person of Witness Lee (fellow believer in the Lord), yet some of you dare to say, as NeitherFirstnorLast said in post #36, “be careful in your handling of fellow believers.”
Thank you, I appreciate your one time admission of taking those words incorrectly.

Last year I paid a visit to a Local Church, while I was there enjoying The Lord with them I did hear repeatedly "Poor Poor Christianity! and it was being said in a condescending manner and being echoed from a publication that was allotted for their reading of that week.(this grieved my spirit) and you are so right in pointing out that it was the "SYSTEM"

I believe the saints no matter where on this earth need to be careful and not fall into any system, but enter into Christ through the door/gospel of Christ He has opened for us. If we don't stand vigilant we may find ourselves on auto-pilot and grieve our Dear Lord.

What say ye on this?


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Many of you have said that those in the recovery follow a person rather than the Lord. Well, if you are meeting in your home alone/family then you are not following a man. You are just following yourself detached from the real and practical fellowship of the Body. If you are meeting with a “non-denominational group” (the best group I’ve seen is “home-church movement), whether you like it or not you are following the pastor/minister/elder/bishop/rabbi/preacher. Whether you want to accept it or not , there is no way around it.
No doubt, it is a blessing and honor to be part of God’s move on the earth today. Here in the recovery, I have a sense of purpose and direction. So I’ll say this again for “NeitherFirstnorLast” sake, I’m an active local church member and proud of it. I have no shame in saying those words. I’m just been true to how I feel to spare you all from self humility. When Paul and other characters in the Scriptures displayed humility as a virtue, they did so in a mature state of their life. There is no gain pretending to be something else. I’ve been told before about my pride, but I prefer to be honest, open and transparent as to who I am and where I am in my Christian life for the sake of sanctification, transformation, correction and perfecting. Remember, he who love his soul-life and does not take the cross to lose it now for the Lords sake, but wants to save it, will lose it.
So, you you are the remnant? You think you and your group has arrived and become the only true testimony on the earth?

Dear friend, You need to get out a bit more and listen to yourself. I do believe that the saints of the recovery are saved and enjoying fellowship with The Lord. But I do worry because of the System/LSM and the influence/guiding/power it has to usurp His leading.

I can't say for sure because I no longer meet with the LC'rs but I would take a guess based on my experience that every meeting in the Local Churches are affected by the power of the LSM.


What say ye?

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“Spin”? Hummm? Are you speaking from experience. I’ve been lurking this forum before you became a member and I’ve seen all kinds of ‘spin’ here. Some new believes that I’m caring for are confused or have questions when they touch this forum. What kind of testimony is this? I have to know what they are reading in order to know how to inoculate them. There is no need to “spin” anything. No need to convince anybody. Truth sets people free. Go ahead, ‘spin’ my words.
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The only spin here is that upon Christs return, All motives will be exposed and dealt with.

May we all lift up our heads and our hands to our maker and lift Him up!

As Always, Peace to all men!

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Old 05-05-2011, 07:54 AM   #50
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By this definition everyone that has ever stood in line follows a man. I have two very big issues with the teaching of the LSM, and please note I served in the LSM from the late 70s through the mid 90s. It wasn't continuous, but the great majority of those years I was serving in the LSM.
Issue 1 -- The teaching of the Minister of the Age.
Issue 2 -- The teaching of the one publication.
For me personally, what initially "sold me" on these aberrant teachings was a misguided view of history. WL continually presented his self-serving overview of church history, emphasizing how the "recovery" needed a continual string of notable ministers to take the lead in every age. The more I studied actual church history, the more I discovered how faulty this view really is.

Just as the so-called "authenticity" of today's pope needs an historical succession of popes starting with Peter, the "Minister of the Age" (MOTA) teaching requires a continual succession of MOTA's starting with Luther. There's just a small problem -- not even "recovery" history provides such a succession. WL's book Vision of the Age lists Madame Guyon as one such MOTA. Now, I'm not demeaning this dear sister in any way, but to call her a MOTA borders on absurdity. For that matter, to call any servant of God a MOTA is just absurd. No historian has ever done this, except WL, and that's why I say his distorted views of church history are so self-serving.
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:34 AM   #51
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For me personally, what initially "sold me" on these aberrant teachings was a misguided view of history. ....
It's amazing that the LRC can simultaneously hold the belief that women should not teach with authority to men, and at the same time hold that Madame Guyon was the "minister of the age." That's so ironic it's bizarre.

Besides the historical curve-fitting Lee used to prop up the MOTA idea, it's totally lost on them that the subjective nature of determining who is the MOTA leads to the sensible conclusion that such an idea cannot do the heavy lifting of expecting and requiring people to assent to it. Yet that's what they do. They go around wondering why people don't fall in line and claim they are out of God's move for not doing so. It's just nutty, but there it is.
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:39 PM   #52
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It's amazing that the LRC can simultaneously hold the belief that women should not teach with authority to men, and at the same time hold that Madame Guyon was the "minister of the age." That's so ironic it's bizarre.
Don't forget "Miss M.E. Barber" who, we are told, molded the young Nee into what he became spiritually.

Google "Margaret E. Barber" and the first two websites are apparently composed by the "Chicago Bibles and Books" people. The Wikipedia entry mainly cites James Reetzke and Living Stream Ministry as references.

We know that God is not a respecter of persons. If there is a rule, it should apply to everyone, accross the board, irrespective. With the LRC historians, however, there seem to be special people, to whom the conventions (e.g. "a woman should not teach") don't apply.

Which, conveniently, carries over into the current leadership; there are rules for the small potatoes, and rules for the MOTA. I find this to be subjectivism run amok; subjectivism masquerading as objective truth.
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Old 05-05-2011, 12:58 PM   #53
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It's amazing that the LRC can simultaneously hold the belief that women should not teach with authority to men, and at the same time hold that Madame Guyon was the "minister of the age." That's so ironic it's bizarre.

Besides the historical curve-fitting Lee used to prop up the MOTA idea, it's totally lost on them that the subjective nature of determining who is the MOTA leads to the sensible conclusion that such an idea cannot do the heavy lifting of expecting and requiring people to assent to it. Yet that's what they do. They go around wondering why people don't fall in line and claim they are out of God's move for not doing so. It's just nutty, but there it is.
If there is only one publication, and that's the only literature that the members read, then the members only get to hear WL's version of history, and it's all supposed to make sense because he said so.

Personally, I was never limited to LSM. I spent my college days under the ministry of Phillip Comfort, who refused to be limited by any and all publications. He was Bible first, and then selected from a whole host of authors for reference. He encouraged us all to develop libraries. Phil was also influenced by Bill Freeman.

One time I was with the two of them (~ frigid winter of '77-'78) and Phil casually asked Bill if it was still worthwhile for us to study the original Greek text of the New Testament, since so many quality books had already written on the subject. I loved the abrupt answer Bill gave, "what? God wrote in Greek!" Most of us know what the future had in store for Phil Comfort.
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Old 05-05-2011, 01:01 PM   #54
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Don't forget "Miss M.E. Barber" who, we are told, molded the young Nee into what he became spiritually.

Google "Margaret E. Barber" and the first two websites are apparently composed by the "Chicago Bibles and Books" people. The Wikipedia entry mainly cites James Reetzke and Living Stream Ministry as references.

We know that God is not a respecter of persons. If there is a rule, it should apply to everyone, across the board, irrespective. With the LRC historians, however, there seem to be special people, to whom the conventions (e.g. "a woman should not teach") don't apply.

Which, conveniently, carries over into the current leadership; there are rules for the small potatoes, and rules for the MOTA. I find this to be subjectivism run amok; subjectivism masquerading as objective truth.
Have you forgotten that beloved sister in China who preached the gospel to WL brought him to the Lord.
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:06 PM   #55
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Have you forgotten that beloved sister in China who preached the gospel to WL [WN, actually] and brought him to the Lord.
Right. Dora Yu. How would Dora Yu fare under the blendeds today? What would Ron Kangas do when faced with a "spiritual sister" like that?
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:44 PM   #56
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Right. Dora Yu. How would Dora Yu fare under the blendeds today? What would Ron Kangas do when faced with a "spiritual sister" like that?
He has already told us.

.

He would send that spiritual sister to the kitchen to finish the dishes.
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Old 05-05-2011, 09:46 PM   #57
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I’ve been researching on http://ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooks.cfm the term “poor Christianity”, and every time Witness Lee said those word, he is speaking of (pay attention because I’ll only say it once) the system and not the people trap in the system. It was all of us (yes I’m including myself) that took those words incorrectly. Our attitude toward fellow believers in Christ was one of belittling them thinking we're superior to them.

The Lurker
The Lurker, Witness Lee also said in 1997 "You must bring this message back, read it once, read it twice, and come together to fellowship with one another. Then you will see that, we, in the past, were wrong! Of course, denominations are wrong. The sectarianism is what God condemns the most."

Nearly thirty years earlier Witness Lee spoke these words in The Practical Expression of the Church

“It is only by being so liberal and general that we can receive all the saints in a proper way. If we are otherwise, we cannot avoid being sectarian in the matter of receiving. If we are special in anything and insist upon that, we will probably not receive those who differ from us in certain matters."

"We must have such a proper receiving of all the saints that we may keep the proper unity; otherwise, we can never keep ourselves from being sectarian and causing much confusion and damage to the church life. To practice the church life by keeping the proper unity, such a general receiving is necessary. May the Lord have mercy upon us!”

Key theme in these quoted words of Witness Lee is sectarianism. Your post touches on this characteristic which you worded as "Our attitude toward fellow believers in Christ was one of belittling them thinking we're superior to them." The local churches weren't able to keep from being sectarian. If there wasn't a problem with sectarianism, Witness Lee wouldn't need to speak on it. This belittling you speak of is what I consider to be sectarianism expressed. I had heard it enough times in my locality to stop meeting on Sundays. Before I stopped meeting I did bring it to the attention of an elder. He was unphased. This is why a 1968 publication such as The Practical Expression of the Church is so important. It's biblical context is in Romans 12 & 14 on the matter of receiving. As I quoted our brother, "may the Lord have mercy upon us!"
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:23 AM   #58
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When Paul and other characters in the Scriptures displayed humility as a virtue, they did so in a mature state of their life. There is no gain pretending to be something else. I’ve been told before about my pride, but I prefer to be honest, open and transparent as to who I am and where I am in my Christian life for the sake of sanctification, transformation, correction and perfecting. Remember, he who love his soul-life and does not take the cross to lose it now for the Lords sake, but wants to save it, will lose it.
Lurker, do you see what you are saying here? You "have been told before about (your) pride, but prefer to be honest, open and transparent as to who (you are)?"

Pride is a great sin. It is the sin which lead Satan into rebellion:

Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before the fall."

How can you say that you are okay with this sin, as it is just "where you are" or "who you are"? Consider a murderer, or a liar, or a thief, who professed to be a follower of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ but who also refused to repent of the sin, saying instead "Hey, Paul didn't murder anyone or lie or steal, but he was mature. I'm not, and I prefer to be honest about that." That is false humility.

Lurker, let me remind you of James 2:10
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

You cannot hold on to a sin. Not one. Confess and repent of every sin, and He who is just will be faithful to forgive you your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness.... And if you will not repent of that sin, then you cannot be forgiven it.

Why do you not care to be forgiven this sin? Why do you not care to let Christ have His way in you? Why do you not repent and be cleansed? Precisely because your pride will not permit you to bend your knee to Him.

The Pharisees were guilty of the same, and look what He said would become of them.

This is the hard truth, and I mean to say it not to shame you but to expose you - for that which is left in the dark may remain hidden, but when the light shines, it must flee or be seen.

In Christ,

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Old 05-07-2011, 05:07 AM   #59
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I feel like everyone has piled on the Lurker and I don't feel that is a balanced approach to what he was saying. I agree with him that you can find many gatherings of Christians that have a simplistic view of the gospel. They may teach the truth, but it seems that, for the most part, their gospel ends with the Gospel of John. It is very easy to attack WL and the LRC because their views are published and taught and regurgitated frequently. Other groups of Christians have a very different focus, perhaps they are focused on worship and service. They may not teach nearly so much on some of these truths instead saying something to the effect of "Jesus is our Example" or "WWJD". However, if you were to fellowship with the individual members in detail you would learn that many of them have a very spotty understanding of the NT, or even a blatantly wrong understanding that borders on being saved by good works, etc. It may be that the ministry of WL and WN was very good in connecting the dots between the experiences of Christians recorded over the last 2,000 years and the teachings of Paul in his epistles.

So, I don't have an issue with the truths, I think they are wonderful and I am very happy that I was helped to understand the NT in greater depth. However, I believe there is an incredible disconnect where the LRC teaching has lost the realization that this teaching grew in part out of the experiences of Christians recorded over the last 2,000 years. Somehow they have become proud and arrogant as though they alone have this teaching and therefore, having the teaching means having the experience. On the contrary it may very well be that the groups that are seemingly poor in teachings are actually quite rich in the genuine experience, while those that boast of how rich they are in the teachings are in fact poor in experience and even blind to this fact.
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Old 05-07-2011, 05:34 AM   #60
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Have you forgotten that beloved sister in China who preached the gospel to WL brought him to the Lord.
Peace Wang. I confused her with Dora Yu.

Another "spiritual sister" who would be a threat to the blendeds.

Reminds me of the time Jesus said how they kill the prophets, and later decorate their tombs (Matt 23).

The LRC builds mausoleums for these sisters, while they wouldn't tolerate them for a second if they were here in the flesh.
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:52 AM   #61
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I'm not sure that the view that the gospel is just in the "Gospels" is such a simple thing. But is there anything added to the truth beyond that other than commentary on how it played out, including letters, mostly from Paul, that directed the believers back to the path. All Paul had was the existing scripture (the OT) and what Christ had taught and patterned while visibly on earth.

If there is anything "simple" about the gospel as presented in the four "gospels" it is our over-simplifying it down to just a matter of knowing and believing but not obeying — or at least not obeying the parts that require any act of our mind, emotions, will, or body (other than believing in our minds). We have misread Paul to eliminate the call to a different way of achieving the righteousness demanded in the law. Christ did not abolish the demand for righteousness. He provided a different way to achieve it. One that is greater than our will and effort and has guaranteed success.

"Go and disciple the nations. Baptize them. And teach them to obey all that I have taught you." Too much of Christianity, including the LRC, has abandoned that last charge. The LRC and some other inner-life groups replaced obedience with spiritual stuff. Others replaced it with a different kind of cheap grace in which everything is about your mental assent and agreement. But many are beginning to return obedience into the mix. Without obedience, even salvation has somewhat of a question mark.

And when you layer in Paul, one of the more prolific commentators, he did not say that obedience was being spiritual. He said there were spiritual truths that provided the way to obey. Like in Galatians. He didn't tell anyone to be crucified. He said that we have been and because of that we should not be doing what we are doing, but instead be righteous.

And then Peter came along and said that we already have everything we need for righteousness. But Lee didn't think so. He said we needed more dispensing. And he didn't like the book of James because it described the Christian life from the opposite viewpoint. If you are not obeying, then your spirituality is to be questioned. That does not contradict anything that Paul said. Paul just said that because you have this spiritual reality, obey. Paul said how and James gave us a benchmark to review success and failure.

Waiting for dispensing is not the gospel. "I'm free from the law" is not the gospel. (You are free from the bondage of the law, but not from its righteous requirement.) Just call on the Lord, meaning "say 'Oh Lord Jesus' three times" is not the gospel. That is cheap grace. We need no realization of our depravity or repentance. We just get a different feeling — one supported, and maybe created by the enthusiasm of the crowd around us. And we don't have to obey after that. Just sit back and take in the dispensing and all our sins, whatever they are, will fall off us without any act of our own will to set our mind and walk.

No we have probably rejected the most extreme parts of that kind of teaching. But do we still resist doing? Abiding was not for abiding. It was to provide the means to do. It is probably what Paul called setting the mind. It is not floating in a spiritual dream, soaking in dispensing, but communing with God to tap into the means to do.

Remember that God didn't put man here to be spiritual, but to have dominion over the earth. We were not put here to worship, but to do. And God provided his truth when he gave the Israelites the law. It was about living righteously and having no other God. And because they would fail, he provided the animal sacrifice as a substitution for the requirement of their own life. And we now think that God just abandoned the whole righteousness thing because there is no more system of sacrifices. That is erroneous thinking. The primary law is not abolished. There are too many passages in the NT saying that we are to be obedient, to follow, to do, etc., and we jump on the one place that says we are dead to the law and presume that means that all those other passages are wrong. More like we are wrong about what being dead to the law meant in that one place. Seems more like wishful thinking. Wanting to not have to obey and finding a few words that can be twisted to mean it despite many words that say otherwise. The volume of words that speak against that position leaves the only conclusion to be that we don't understand what being dead to the law is.
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:50 AM   #62
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I'm not sure that the view that the gospel is just in the "Gospels" is such a simple thing...
Amen to that Brother, 100%.
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:53 AM   #63
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Christ did not abolish the demand for righteousness. He provided a different way to achieve it. One that is greater than our will and effort and has guaranteed success.

...many are beginning to return obedience into the mix. Without obedience, even salvation has somewhat of a question mark.

Paul... said there were spiritual truths that provided the way to obey. Like in Galatians. He didn't tell anyone to be crucified. He said that we have been and because of that we should not be doing what we are doing, but instead be righteous.

And then Peter came along and said that we already have everything we need for righteousness. And James said... if you are not obeying, then your spirituality is to be questioned. That does not contradict anything that Paul said. Paul just said that because you have this spiritual reality, obey. Paul said how and James gave us a benchmark to review success and failure.

...Remember that God didn't put man here to be spiritual, but to have dominion over the earth. We were not put here to worship, but to do. And God provided his truth when he gave the Israelites the law. It was about living righteously and having no other God.
It seems as though Jesus (and then Paul, Peter, James, etc) presents us with a different notion of dominion. Jesus didn't really boss anyone around. He was the "Master" (Gk kurios) to the disciples, but again more like the master-copy, the template to follow in order to be saved.

And his example was to be obedient to the Father. "Behold I come to do Thy will; in the roll of the book it is written concerning Me".

So Jesus was the "Master" (i.e. expert) servant. He emptied Himself and took the form of a man, and always stood as the Son of Man. And because Jesus was "under authority", as the Roman centurion rightly noted, even the wind and the waves obeyed Him, and ultimately the Father glorified Him.

But you are fundamentally right. It was all about doing God's will. And it remains so. Only now, instead of Moses' law facing us, we have the glorified Jesus facing us. And we, hopefully, can see this One, and not be led about by winds of teaching. He is, and remains, the way home to the Father.

We believe, and because we believe, our actions change.
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Old 05-08-2011, 01:39 PM   #64
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However, I believe there is an incredible disconnect where the LRC teaching has lost the realization that this teaching grew in part out of the experiences of Christians recorded over the last 2,000 years. Somehow they have become proud and arrogant as though they alone have this teaching and therefore, having the teaching means having the experience.
"We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know." 1 Cor. 8:1-2

Paul saw the error of the LRC long before they committed it. If the LRC is so clear on Paul, then how did they miss 1 Cor 8? The answer is right there in the verses. They did not know as they ought to know.

You have two knowings here. One sounds good, looks good and leaves the holder with a sense of having arrived. But it is a knowing that is not according to how knowledge ought to be. The other knowing is proper knowing. It's the knowing of knowing a Person and being humbled by experience.

Yes, there are some ignorant Christians out there. But at least they know they don't know. Those in the LRC think they know but actually know little. Who is worse off?
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Old 05-08-2011, 10:45 PM   #65
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"We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know." 1 Cor. 8:1-2

Paul saw the error of the LRC long before they committed it. If the LRC is so clear on Paul, then how did they miss 1 Cor 8? The answer is right there in the verses. They did not know as they ought to know.

Yes, there are some ignorant Christians out there. But at least they know they don't know. Those in the LRC think they know but actually know little. Who is worse off?
Good verse Igzy. In non-LSM Christianity, it has been refreshing and encouraging. True, they may not be exposed to a ministry of types and figures. To a certain extent these Chrsitians express 1 Corinthians 13.
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:29 AM   #66
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How many times did we hear Witness Lee condesendingly repeat, "Poor, poor, Christianity." ,"Plastic Christians. Songs/ Slogans were sang, repeating "Overcome Degraded Chrisitianity!!! At some point in most meetings traditional Christians and Christianity were attacked, mocked, called "deadened" "but the Local Churches, well --we are the Lord's highest recovery HALELUJAH AMEN chant louder !!!

Wow!! Chanting and saying the same thing over and over ! what a way to make some people feel better than everyone else!! repeat AMEN loudly after Lee's every word! Just like mind control!!

Gee, don't you feel so much superior now and God loves you best now that you are in this "church" group? And if you are an elder I'm sure your easy paycheck is worth just following orders.
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The high peak revelation in the New Testament revealed by the Lord's Recovery ministry:
God became man so that man can become God, in life and nature but not in the Godhead, for the building up of the Body of Christ as one new man that will consummate in the New Jerusalem.

Jesus went through incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension and became the life-giving Spirit. Grace is this processed Triune God becomes our life, life supply, and ENJOYMENT.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:15 PM   #68
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The high peak revelation in the New Testament revealed by the Lord's Recovery ministry:
God became man so that man can become God, in life and nature but not in the Godhead, for the building up of the Body of Christ as one new man that will consummate in the New Jerusalem.

Jesus went through incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension and became the life-giving Spirit. Grace is this processed Triune God becomes our life, life supply, and ENJOYMENT.
I never saw any brother "become God in life and nature," rather that high-peak talk was merely a smokescreen for what was really going on. I did, however, observe many LC leaders grow proud and arrogant over the years. I often wondered if love had disappeared among us, and often witnessed beloved brothers becoming bullies after being under this ministry for decades.

The Apostle Paul told the Corinthians, "And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." I know many LC leaders who are filled to the brim with ministry doctrines, yet have little love. So they can condemn their brothers, and not be bothered. They can quarantine and slander their brothers, and not be bothered. They can sue their brothers, and not be bothered. They can back stab and betray their brothers, and not be bothered.

What good is all their knowledge? Who cares if their knowledge reaches the highest peak? Paul says it profits nothing. All that knowledge is basically useless. I know. I was there 30 years, and I came to that same conclusion.
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Old 12-11-2013, 01:28 PM   #69
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The high peak revelation in the New Testament revealed by the Lord's Recovery ministry:
God became man so that man can become God, in life and nature but not in the Godhead, for the building up of the Body of Christ as one new man that will consummate in the New Jerusalem.

Jesus went through incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension and became the life-giving Spirit. Grace is this processed Triune God becomes our life, life supply, and ENJOYMENT.
"Unregistered Guest"

Thanks for posting, please consider registering and participating in the discussions.

I had a couple of serious questions/challanges for you:

Please explain about this "life and nature but not in the Godhead". So God has a life and nature which is apart from the Godhead? This does not seem possible to me. I have been reading the Bible for over 40 years and I don't see where this is taught by the Lord Jesus or any of the scripture writing apostles. I see where we receive God's life and become "partakers of the divine nature", but not that we "become God" in any manner whatsoever.

In regards to "Jesus...became the Life-giving Spirit" I would challenge you to find any well known, reputable teacher or scholar who teaches that the second person of the Godhead became the third person of the Godhead. Even if one were to remove the term "person" out of the equation, this notion that one of the three of the Trinity "became" another one of the three of the Trinity is absolutely foreign to orthodox, biblical Christianity. In fact this teaching by Witness Lee has been rightly classified as a form of the ancient heresy of modalism.

I am very familiar with Witness Lee's weak and childish argument: "so, how many Spirits are there that give life?" - My retort would be a question as well: So, EVERY TIME the Bible uses the word "spirit" (Hebrew: neshama נְשָׁמָה - Greek: Pneuma πνεῦμα) it is referring to the Holy Spirit or the third of the Godhead? Please take a little time and review some of the writings of the Church fathers and even the commentaries of so many of the respected teachers and scholars over the past 1800 + years. Take your time and then get back to us. Oh, and don't bother coming back with a simple "brother Lee said"....that kind of response will get you nowhere around here.
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:54 AM   #70
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Steve, I listened to brother Ron in Ecuador, and am shocked at the claptrap coming out of him. He uses discernment of the two trees in the Eden to basically drive home the notion that, LSM and Co. is life, and all else is death.

He might just as well have stood up and said, "Everything coming from Lee, LSM, and the Blended Brothers is the tree of life, and anything coming from anywhere else is the tree of knowledge of good and evil, especially anything coming off the web, or from Steve Isitt."

Brother Ron has been drinking too much of the kool-aid at LSM. As a result, your efforts to reconcile with him will fail. Those affiliated with the LSM LC are like the Borg. They're hooked up to command central, and can not allow anything foreign in their minds. They need to be infected with a virus that reaches the core. Good luck with that.
Hi my name is Andy. By the way, why do you call him brother. If Ron believes in Christ and you believe in Christ, then you should call him brother. Otherwise, you shouldn't call him brother if he doesn't believe in Christ. Members of Body of Christ cannot speak evil about each other. They should bring their request to the Lord and apply His blood to wash them of their sin of evil speaking. I am not promoting LSM nor am I defending Ron Kangas. We as the Body of Christ must forsake sin and be one with our brothers in Christ. If we don't do this, Satan will rob us from our enjoyment of our dear brothers and sisters who are God's children.

A body must be complete and one entity with the head and other members to be called an alive person. Similarly, The Body of Christ must be under the Headship of Christ not under a preacher seeking self serving reasons. A body that doesn't have Christ as the Head is classified as a body with amputated body parts. Amputated body parts are dead just like the majority of churches who do not recognize Christ as the head. They are, Calvinist, Mormons, Catholics, some Evangelist and the list goes on.

It is by the inner growth unto salvation that we are saved". I am not preaching heresy, all I am saying is that initial Salvation was by the Lord who is the Grace of God through faith and faith is just the Lord dispensing more of His Righteous Life into us. The more we come to the Lord, He gives us more of Himself and that becomes faith in us. Now that we are all saved by Grace of the Lord we must grow in Him and we are not to remain as new born babes only drinking the guileless milk of the word in order that by it we may grow unto salvation.

In our daily living , we are daily saved by the Lord and we grow in Him daily. It is not by our own works or doing because if we tried to do it by ourselves, first of all, we couldn't, because it would not match God's standard. Second of all, it would make us proud and God would not approve it. Thirdly, it would annul the crucifixion, and the death and resurrection of the Lord. Salvation, is only by the Lord.

The best example is Abraham when he had Ishamel born of Hagar. After, Abraham produced Ishmael, God didn't speak to him for 13 years. This act happened even before, Abram was circumcised. Circumcision, was a picture for him to understand that his flesh must be terminated before God would give him Isaac. Isaac, represented Christ and it was for Abraham's enjoyment. Do you remember that the Lord visited Abraham with two Angels to give two news to Abraham? Well, one of the two news was the birth of Isaac and the other was the judgement at Sodom. In other words, God was saying to Abraham, I want to give you Christ for your daily enjoyment and I want to judge all negatives things called Sodom. For us it means, when we have Christ in us, all of our negative things like our self, our doings, our opinions, our negative things must be terminated before we can enjoy Christ and that is a matter of growth in life.

I would like to mention that regardless what the media or mainstream Christianity says about the Ministry of LSM. I don't believe it, because it is not Biblical for a member of the Body of Christ to speak evil about another member of the Body of Christ. We are brothers in Christ. As believers in Christ those who say that we preach heresy, is because they haven't grown to apply the Divine Blood of Christ to be their covering.

I want to stress that our initial Salvation happens instantaneously, when in our heart we believe. However, to grow we need to be daily saved from our enemy by the Lord. Actually, all the Lord wants us to do is to come and rest in Him and let Him serve us. The Lord is not interested for us to do anything, because if we do anything apart from Christ. we would produce Ishmael and the Lord will be displeased. If daily growth was heresy, Peter and Paul would not talk about it. It appears in main stream Christianity teaching because they are acting like Jewish Pharisees whom the Lord in Matthew 23 called Brood of Vipers. The Pharisees in their blinded state couldn't see the Lord, that is why, they turned to the politicians who were immersed in darkness to crucify the Lord Jesus.
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you?

If you are a believer in Christ you can not speak Evil of another Christian because Christ is Living in the person and may be living in you too. Bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
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Old 01-26-2014, 09:56 AM   #71
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I want to stress that our initial Salvation happens instantaneously, when in our heart we believe.
Where do you get this from in the bible? The Greek word for believe in John 3:16 is in the present continuous tense so one has to keep committing and trusting himself into Jesus in order to receive the promised eternal life. Pull out a Greek-English interlinear and you can see for yourself.

Jesus also said the believer that does not remain in him and his words is cast into the fire in John 15. He also told us to judge a tree by its fruit, and he said those who are considered his brothers are they that do the will of God (Mark 3:35).

Matthew 7:21-23 is filled with mouth professing Christians who are prevented from entering the door of eternity because their lawlessness proved that they were not true Christians despite "calling on the name of The Lord ". For this reason, the bible also teaches us to treat a church member as an outsider if they refuse to repent (Matthew 18:17)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy3tSIg7Gi0
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:39 PM   #72
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Hi my name is Andy. By the way, why do you call him brother. If Ron believes in Christ and you believe in Christ, then you should call him brother. Otherwise, you shouldn't call him brother if he doesn't believe in Christ. Members of Body of Christ cannot speak evil about each other. They should bring their request to the Lord and apply His blood to wash them of their sin of evil speaking. I am not promoting LSM nor am I defending Ron Kangas. We as the Body of Christ must forsake sin and be one with our brothers in Christ. If we don't do this, Satan will rob us from our enjoyment of our dear brothers and sisters who are God's children.

I would like to mention that regardless what the media or mainstream Christianity says about the Ministry of LSM. I don't believe it, because it is not Biblical for a member of the Body of Christ to speak evil about another member of the Body of Christ. We are brothers in Christ.
Andy, I am not sure whom you are referring to. However I am warmed by the message you are sending. Andy, if you are one who meets in the local churches, I do hope you embrace the responsibility to reject evil speaking. Putting down brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ who do not meet in the local churches is not edifying and does not produce building up. A went to one of the elders about this matter and was not bothered by the speaking. This is why I ceased meeting with the local church in my locality and began meeting with a Community assembly.
As for this thread, for clarification sake brother Steve Isitt did attempt to communicate with brother Ron Kangas privately (via phone and email) over what was spoken publicly in Ecuador.
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:58 PM   #73
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Hi my name is Andy.

I would like to mention that regardless what the media or mainstream Christianity says about the Ministry of LSM. I don't believe it, because it is not Biblical for a member of the Body of Christ to speak evil about another member of the Body of Christ. We are brothers in Christ. As believers in Christ those who say that we preach heresy, is because they haven't grown to apply the Divine Blood of Christ to be their covering.
Dear brother Andy,

Many of us were members of the Local Churches for decades. It was Witness Lee himself who regularly taught us to judge all things Christian. For you to make the statement above is just ludicrous. From the first message I ever heard from Witness Lee, he condemned all of Christianity. His favorite line was "poor, poor, Christianity." He would always take the worst of Christianity and compare it to the best of the Recovery, and then ask us to choose, as if it were a fair comparison. He did his best to convince us that God's blessing and His purpose could only be found in the Recovery. How can I interpret your statement as anything but hypocrisy?

But ... besides that ... welcome to the forum.
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Old 01-26-2014, 06:34 PM   #74
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Hi Brother Andy,

I'm sorry for jumping the gun. I need to repent of my misdirected zeal. I hope you can forgive my hastiness in trying to challenge your assertions, but I still hope you can find the truth in God's word apart from the self proclaimed Minister of the Age instead looking to the Spirit of truth who guides us to all truth (John 16:13).

Welcome to the forum! And please create an account! We need more LCers here to balance the Witness Lee bashing Despite all of what I feel was bad baggage from my LC years, I know the Lord chose to raise me in this background for a reason. There are a couple things that I'm grateful for from being raised in the LC such as believing in the authority of God's word and taking my Christian walk seriously, and perhaps we need to hear more of that.
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Old 01-26-2014, 06:48 PM   #75
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For all of what I feel was bad baggage from my LC years I know the Lord chose to raise me in this background for a reason. There are a couple things that I'm grateful for from being raised in the LC such as believing in the authority of God's word and taking my Christian walk seriously, and perhaps we need to hear more of that.
Amen bearbear. That, I can relate to.
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Old 01-26-2014, 08:25 PM   #76
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Hi my name is Andy.
Howdy Andy. Nice to meet you. And welcome to the forum.

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Originally Posted by Andy
By the way, why do you call him brother.
Because I consider every person on the earth to be children of God and therefore brothers and sisters. I've seen it differently in the past. Early in life brothers and sisters included only Southern Baptists. Then later they were only those in the local church.

But after the local church eventually my brothers and sisters came to include all those that bear the image of God.

I'm happiest, and more with the peace of Christ, with the latter development. And now can't fit back in to those smaller boxes.

But thanks for asking bro Andy.

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If you are a believer in Christ you can not speak Evil of another Christian because Christ is Living in the person and may be living in you too.
Thanks for the advice.

And BTW ... great post ... and good instructions. Will heed as moved.

But let us continue in discussion. Here's an example of what you say about speaking evil of others :

"Judaism is Satanic Catholicism is demonic and Christianity is christless."
- Witness Lee

Am I wrong to point out this evil speaking of others?
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Old 01-27-2014, 12:44 PM   #77
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I would like to mention that regardless what the media or mainstream Christianity says about the Ministry of LSM. I don't believe it, because it is not Biblical for a member of the Body of Christ to speak evil about another member of the Body of Christ. We are brothers in Christ.
I haven't heard anything negative. The assemblies I have met with since last meeting with the local church in the city I reside in, regard all Christians in this city members of the Body of Christ meeting locally, but in various assemblies.
Specifically to the ministry of LSM, the only one I had heard say anything was brother Stephen Kaung saying he's open to fellowship.
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:51 AM   #78
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The high peak revelation in the New Testament revealed by the Lord's Recovery ministry:
God became man so that man can become God, in life and nature but not in the Godhead, for the building up of the Body of Christ as one new man that will consummate in the New Jerusalem.

Jesus went through incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension and became the life-giving Spirit. Grace is this processed Triune God becomes our life, life supply, and ENJOYMENT.
I know most of you have seen this post, but I am absolutely amazed and shocked that Lee said this and rk and bp try to defend it.
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Old 04-17-2014, 12:45 PM   #79
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I know most of you have seen this post, but I am absolutely amazed and shocked that Lee said this and rk and bp try to defend it.
I don't recall if any one has ever made this point. How can you say we have God's life and nature when the Bible clearly points out we are "adoption as sons"? (Romans 8:15, 23, 9:4, Galations 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5)

LSM has omitted the phrase adoption in the RcV translation. Instead the phrase "sonship" is used.
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Old 05-02-2014, 01:20 AM   #80
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some of the local church leaders are the most narrow minded man I ever seen on this planet.

LIE UPON LIE, NEVER CONFESS!!!
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Old 05-02-2014, 11:47 AM   #81
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some of the local church leaders are the most narrow minded man I ever seen on this planet.

LIE UPON LIE, NEVER CONFESS!!!
You've just discovered this? How long did it take for you to catch on? What was the final straw?
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Old 05-02-2014, 12:57 PM   #82
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some of the local church leaders are the most narrow minded man I ever seen on this planet.

LIE UPON LIE, NEVER CONFESS!!!
A response you might recieve by a responsible brother to that comment are "perceived wrongdoings" or "imagined offenses".

Consider why there is a rigid inability to confess:
1. Stiffnecked pride (more so by some blending brothers than by local elders).
2. The concept they are God's authority on the earth. (there is not the view of needing to get right with brothers or sisters that have been offended presently or in the past. Rather a view if you're offended, take the cross and go on positively. However if you offend one of God's authority, you need to get right with them.
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Old 05-03-2014, 05:17 AM   #83
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" perceived wrong doings" or " imagined offense" such as " YOU GOT ME WRONG, That was a joke" are exactly what I mean " LIE UPON LIE" = " CRAP UPON CRAP "

And if you prove them wrong, they have no words to react, and would throw words such as " JUST FORGET IT!!! " with the EXTREMELY UGLY TONE as their SELF is being offended! And would walk away as fast as a running rat escaping from a cat ! I hope this a right parable to describe what that kind of MINDSET is.

or if not that rude as hell, they would come up with:" Oh,oh,oh, if you remember that, you can't go on PURSUEING the Lord!!!"

I wasn't meant to say all are like that, there are surely nice people (in fact, i still have contact with some decent human beings out there, the reason I didn't use brother or sister is just a ironical way of expression to express that their opposite can't even match the standard of being a HUMAN) , but just some ASS-MINDED crap, asking MONEY, MONEY,MONEY!!!, NO MONEY, NOT ENOUGH MONEY, THEN then are NOT HAPPY!

I never figure out why such man would choose to become full-time in that kind of serving if he has NO FAITH to carry that out, but to stress demand upon the others! And he can't supply a decent reason, he will say: I didn't want to be full-time, He (the leader) asked me (appointed) to do that"

I always wondered, YEAH, but u have FREE WILL, HE is not your boss, even if HE is your boss, you could still resign, so WHY the HECK keep on struggling in being in that position and ASK MONEY all the time, and give it a beautiful name : FULLY CONSECRATED! OFFERING ! GIVE EVERYTHING TO THE LORD!
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Old 05-05-2014, 12:41 PM   #84
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I never figure out why such man would choose to become full-time in that kind of serving if he has NO FAITH to carry that out, but to stress demand upon the others! And he can't supply a decent reason, he will say: I didn't want to be full-time, He (the leader) asked me (appointed) to do that"

I always wondered, YEAH, but u have FREE WILL, HE is not your boss, even if HE is your boss, you could still resign, so WHY the HECK keep on struggling in being in that position and ASK MONEY all the time, and give it a beautiful name : FULLY CONSECRATED! OFFERING ! GIVE EVERYTHING TO THE LORD!
It's never been clear what goes on privately when a brother goes full time. I naturally think he either has an income from early retirement or is financially set that he can go full-time. Or a brother is either supported by the locality or the work. If you had read Bill Mallon's letter to Witness Lee this was a minor issue regarding one brother's support. There was no communication between LSM and the locality regarding this brother's support. As a result he received double support form the locality and the ministry.

"and He instructed them that they should take nothing for their journey, except a mere staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belt— but to wear sandals; and He added, “Do not put on two tunics.” Mark 6:8-9
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:01 PM   #85
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Dear ones,

Wow! There is a really sobering, hard-hitting excerpt from WN in the middle of dear brother Steve I's letter:


Oh my! This shines a whole new light on the events of the late 1980's regarding those who overlooked the recurring sin and thought it best to "became like an ostrich with their head in the sand". I would ask the BB's: Dear ones, who were the real divisive ones in the late 1980's? I know you think very hightly of WN, so I beg you to please take heed to this quotation in brother Steve's letter. If even WN's words find you wanting, how much more may the True Judge's assessment of your words and actions in the late 1980's find you sadly wanting?

Dear BB's: REPENT!! Repent while there is still time to repent!!
http://lordsrecovery.us/RonKangasLetterOct2009.pdf
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Old 08-26-2018, 08:43 PM   #86
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Yes. Nee's comments were derived from a tract by John Nelson Darby entitled, "Separation From Sin: the Basis of Oneness." Many of us received help from that tract in the '80s, to strengthen us in our understanding to separate from what we realized had become a Christian cult (the "Lee's Local Churches" aka "the Recovery"). Steve Issit is more than fair in his assessment; in fact, he's charitable. He knows the wickedness and subterfuge that was used to cover gross sinfulness (repeated adultery which was harbored and winked at, as well as other deceptive improprieties).

In fact, I have never understood why Steve Issit continues to have any sort of faith in that LC movement! I, for one, consider that movement more sectarian and deceived than
So, I'm very familiar with the events and persons documented. Also, I consistently, myself, overlooked repeated contradiction of principles in those "churches" because I so much wanted to believe they "had the truth by the tail" (which, truly, they do NOT!).
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Old 08-26-2018, 09:47 PM   #87
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Yes. Nee's comments were derived from a tract by John Nelson Darby entitled, "Separation From Sin: the Basis of Oneness." Many of us received help from that tract in the '80s, to strengthen us in our understanding to separate from what we realized had become a Christian cult (the "Lee's Local Churches" aka "the Recovery"). Steve Issit is more than fair in his assessment; in fact, he's charitable. He knows the wickedness and subterfuge that was used to cover gross sinfulness (repeated adultery which was harbored and winked at, as well as other deceptive improprieties).

In fact, I have never understood why Steve Issit continues to have any sort of faith in that LC movement! I, for one, consider that movement more sectarian and deceived than So, I'm very familiar with the events and persons documented. Also, I consistently, myself, overlooked repeated contradiction of principles in those "churches" because I so much wanted to believe they "had the truth by the tail" (which, truly, they do NOT!).
The actual title of Darby's early Brethren tract was "Separation from Evil - God's Principle of Unity." Stem Publishers has the tract on line.

It is well worth the time spent for every ex-LC member to consider the error in this title. The error here forms the foundation of all Exclusive error from Darby to Nee to Lee. Simply this -- the movement left all the positive items of the oneness of the Spirit such as Ephesians 4 -- which are God's basis for the oneness of His body -- and placed into the hands of leaders the decisive reasons for all members to judge.

In other words, Darby, Nee, and Lee decided who or what the other members should judge. They alone usurped all the authority of the Head. If they decided a brother was evil, then all others must follow, in order to keep their brand of oneness. Darby declared Benjamen Newton evil, then followed with George Muller, and all loyal members were forced to obey. For Nee it was the elders in Shanghai who had excommunicated him. Lee did in Mallon, So, Ingalls, Feng, et. al. The Blendeds did Chu and Dong.

Their so-called unity was based on the judgment of evil, rather than amything positive of the Spirit.

Only the MOTAs get to determine what is "evil" -- whether it is a 2nd book publisher, young people using electric guitars, some elder in Anaheim exposing corruption at LSM, or Titus Chu requesting clean sheets in Thailand -- doesn't matter what it is -- headquarters can use anything they like to remove perceived "rivals."
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Old 08-27-2018, 10:56 AM   #88
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Default Re: Churches in Europe disassociate from Witness Lee and his work

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Dear ones,

Oh my! This shines a whole new light on the events of the late 1980's regarding those who overlooked the recurring sin and thought it best to "became like an ostrich with their head in the sand". I would ask the BB's: Dear ones, who were the real divisive ones in the late 1980's? I know you think very highly of WN, so I beg you to please take heed to this quotation in brother Steve's letter. If even WN's words find you wanting, how much more may the True Judge's assessment of your words and actions in the late 1980's find you sadly wanting?

Dear BB's: REPENT!! Repent while there is still time to repent!!

Because of the undealt with sins at LSM, John So and churches in Europe disassociate with LSM.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf

Signatures on the letter from the disassociating churches are from Hamburg, Zurich, Geneva, Stuttgart, Reutlingen, Tiibengen, Pforzheim, Neuchatel, and Lausanne. Did you know these brothers, Ron? They could not be reconciled, since there was no repentance by Brother Lee and LSM.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:34 AM   #89
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Default Re: churches in Europe object to and disassociate from LSM

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Because of the undealt with sins at LSM, John So and churches in Europe disassociate with LSM.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf
Reading the brief letter in the post above is just sickening. How could Witness Lee give all these spiritual and biblical teachings to the church, and yet hire his profligate son Philip as General Manager of his ministry? How could he throw all of his co-workers, so many churches, long term friends and colleagues under the bus just to protect his son's many scandals and abuses?

Drake and his supporters at LSM can go on and on about Lee's deep and high peak theology, yet how does he explain these actions? Listen to how the Apostle Paul describes these ones, "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transfiguring themselves into apostles of Christ, and no wonder, for Satan himself transfigures himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if also his ministers transfigure themselves as ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." (II Cor 11.13-15)

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Old 08-27-2018, 03:09 PM   #90
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

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Those affiliated with the LSM LC are like the Borg. They're hooked up to command central, and can not allow anything foreign in their minds. They need to be infected with a virus that reaches the core. Good luck with that.
Now you're speaking my language, Awareness! They are just like the borg in my recent experience. Such a robotic devotion to the Lee mission....with no seeming ability to hear or see even the blatant contradictions to Gods word. Praise Jesus I and my kids were not assimilated. A very close call, however.
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Old 08-27-2018, 04:00 PM   #91
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Default Re: Ron in Ecuador/and in Anaheim Speaking Falsehoods

Here is the RECORD Ron, and it is not good. Will you come to a table of fellowship?


INDIANA
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8&postcount=88


OHIO
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...9&postcount=89




Leaders of the Lord's Recovery


Both Ron Kangas and Minoru Chen have spoken out AGAIN about the so-called rebellious ones, taking heed only to the official narrative created by Witness Lee on our church history. There is no conscience involved except to be faithful to the "canonized" words of one man, who says,

"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here." (from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy. WL)

Brothers I don't get paid for what I do, so I have no financial interests to protect a man and his ministry, or not. I tell the truth for free. No President WOULD THINK THAT HE ALONE COULD WRITE THE HISTORY OF HIS PRESIDENCY and that others should have no freedom to check the FACTS and tell, especially the parts seriously missing from the official script. I write about the hidden history of Witness Lee and the Local Churches.

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us
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Old 08-27-2018, 04:51 PM   #92
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

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Here is the RECORD Ron, and it is not good. Will you come to a table of fellowship?


INDIANA
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...8&postcount=88


OHIO
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...9&postcount=89


LEADERS

Both Ron Kangas and Minoru Chen have spoken out AGAIN about the so-called rebellious ones, taking heed only to the official narrative created by Witness Lee on our church history. There is no conscience involved except to be faithful to the canonized words of one man, who says,

"The book The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion includes my spoken messages, but its content was edited afterward by me personally. I have carefully checked all the facts and have tried my best to be accurate, to be without any mistakes. In addition to an account of the beginning and development of the whole period of the rebellion, the content of that book includes personal testimonies from over thirty brothers. Therefore, concerning this storm, I have spoken the clarifying and concluding word that I needed to speak. I have absolutely no more interest in talking about this matter. This matter now stops here." (from The Mysteries of God's New Testament Economy)

Brothers I don't get paid for what I do, so I have no financial interests to protect a man and his ministry. I tell the truth for free. No man has the right to declare that others should have no more freedom to check with the FACTS and tell the truth according to their findings.

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us
If your business model is to bring others into bondage you cannot tell the truth because the truth will set them free.
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Old 08-28-2018, 05:29 PM   #93
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Default Re: LSM CULTURE OF HIDING SINS

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Because of the undealt with sins at LSM, John So and churches in Europe disassociate with LSM.



Signatures on the letter from the disassociating churches are from Hamburg, Zurich, Geneva, Stuttgart, Reutlingen, Tiibengen, Pforzheim, Neuchatel, and Lausanne. Did you know these brothers, Ron? They could not be reconciled, since there was no repentance by Brother Lee and LSM.

LSM CULTURE OF HIDING SINS HOLDS BACK THE REVIVAL THEY SEEK


]From ZNPaaneah who asked Ed Marks why he signed the apology letter to Philip Lee.

I ate dinner at the church in NY tonight along with Ed Marks. I knew Ed from Houston, we were both in the church in Houston in 1978-1980, then we both went to Irving together during the construction of the meeting hall there. All in all we were together for 4 1/2 years. 3 years in Houston and 1 1/2 years in Irving. While in Houston Ed gave me his car.

So when I heard he was going to be here I wanted to get his side of the story about the letter he signed apologizing to Phillip Lee. I met Phillip Lee while in Irving. He invited me and about 12 other brothers to go for "fellowship". We sat and watched him eat lobster at a very expensive Chinese restaurant. When I returned to the worksite I realized he needed the 12 of us so that he could expense the trip as "fellowship with the workers on the Irving hall". It was very clear to me that PL was a lascivious, gluttonous, deceitful man.

So I asked Ed what his side of the story was concerning this letter. He told me that there is always another side. I told him surely you can tell me now what it is, that was 30 years ago. He said that he was "a monkey" and held his hands to his eyes and then his ears. I told him I would never assume that, I reminded him that he was mentored by Dirk Engels and George Farmer. I told him those brothers were serious brothers. He told me that PL "had gone to be with the Lord". I said that I was not there to speak negatively of PL, rather I wanted to hear his side of why he signed that letter. He said he didn't know anything. I told him that one of the sisters that was abused by PL had come to Houston, he had to have known, this wasn't the first time it happened, John Ingalls and the other brothers had excommunicated him after warning him. He said that "Witness Lee was very happy with that letter."

Shortly after this Dennis Cooley, a brother who has been in the leadership of the church in NY for about 20 years and a brother I know very well (I lived with his brother in a brother's house in Odessa Texas) pulled me aside. He was angry that I talked to Ed. I told him I've known Ed since he first came into the church life and I wanted to ask him a question and this is the first time I have seen him since this event happened. He wanted to know if I had some kind of agenda to disrupt the meeting, I told him I had no idea that Ed was coming until yesterday when it was announced in the meeting (I had just happened to visit, the first time in about 10 years). Dennis said that Ed doesn't want to deal with this now. I said this has been 30 years, when are you going to deal with it? I can understand 3 months after the event you don't want to deal with it because you don't have all the facts, but at some point you have to deal with it. Dennis asked that I leave and not attend the fellowship, so I left.

I understand that you cannot judge someone for a mistake they made the moment they make the mistake, but at some point it is time to say "I made a mistake". The Lord Jesus died on the cross to deal with sin. He treats the matter of dealing with sin very seriously. For Ed, or the elders in Anaheim, or for the leaders in the Lord's Recovery to pretend that they can ignore sin, pretend they don't see it, pretend they don't hear it is an insult to the Lord Jesus. Surely God the father will not wink at this sin.


Witness Lee made mistakes. This was one of them. The TRAVESTY of all things Philip Lee; and covering the "all things" up.
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:13 PM   #94
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Default Re: LSM Church Culture of Hiding Sins

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Because of the undealt with sins at LSM, John So and churches in Europe disassociate with LSM.

http://www.lordsrecovery.us/European...Depart1989.pdf

Signatures on the letter from the disassociating churches are from Hamburg, Zurich, Geneva, Stuttgart, Reutlingen, Tiibengen, Pforzheim, Neuchatel, and Lausanne. Did you know these brothers, Ron? They could not be reconciled, since there was no repentance by Brother Lee and LSM.

LSM CULTURE OF HIDING SIN

"It seems that two concocted teachings took place. One was to build up a portion of Scripture to convey the message of blessed blindness to the mistakes of a leader."




LSM Radio Transcription

Witness Lee: “When I was young I was a little bothered that Noah, didn’t confess when he made a mistake. He had a failure and when he woke up he didn’t confess. He didn’t make a confession, but right away he cursed. He cursed the one that exposed his nakedness. I was a little unhappy about this. I said Noah you are the father. But anyhow, don’t you realize that you were wrong? First of all, you have to confess to God, and then confess to the exposing son, Ham. I was bothered. You didn’t confess. Right away you cursed.

Not only so. He cursed the exposing one and blessed the covering ones. Whosoever was for him, he blessed. Whosoever was not for him, he cursed. I said, Noah, surely you are too selfish. When I was a young Christian I was bothered by him, I blamed him. One day the Lord showed me His divine government. I said Noah, you are a good example. Why? Although you got the failure, yet you were still so strong in God’s governmental dealing to speak this prophecy of cursing and blessing. It was hard for Noah to do because it so much corresponded to his failure. It was hard.

If you are going to understand this portion of the divine word, you have to see what the divine government is. It is not just merely a matter of human failure. This is small. Whether the leader is right or wrong, that’s not so serious. But where is God’s government? This is serious.

You see, Ham, the son of Noah who exposed Noah’s nakedness, was careless concerning God’s divine government. He was careless; he was careless. To expose one’s nakedness is a small thing, but to get yourself involved with the divine government, this is another story. We all must see this. Here is one who is the leader, who is the father of God’s family, who is God’s deputy authority on this earth. Now he got a failure. What would be your attitude? This involves you in God’s governmental dealing. Is this clear to you all?

Chris Wilde “Dick, Witness Lee makes a very striking point in this portion. By pointing out that Noah even in his failure shows us God’s government in type, even in prophecy. This point is not that easy to understand. DT - No it’s not CW – What is this referring to?

Dick Taylor Noah had a great failure. He should have just confessed his failure to the Lord and admitted his serious mistake, yet the Bible doesn’t tell us anything along that line. But I believe the Lord in His word is trying to get a point across to us. The Bible doesn’t stress that side of Noah’s experience, but it does stress a side that even in the midst of failure, God still has His government. Apparently, you could just look at Noah and his failure and say, Noah, you should have done this, and you should have done that. But because of the failure there was a need for some speaking by God. There was a need for some speaking, especially because of the action of the sons, most notably Ham.

But if Noah had not spoken something, even as a curse to Ham, and had he not spoken faithfully after this failure, then it actually would have been a failure of God’s government. Noah’s failure was one thing, but God’s government is an even higher thing to see in this account.

Most people totally miss this. Realizing and seeing God’s government and God’s deputy authorities is crucial. So, on one hand it’s easy to miss this. On the other hand, we have to realize that God’s government is a very big thing. In the midst of this failure Noah still spoke up to take care of God’s government and express God’s authority on the earth.

CW So Noah’s attitude there was not so much a vindicating of himself even in his failure but as a respect or response to God’s authority which has been delegated to him.. DT That’s absolutely correct, yeah. CW That’s really a significant point.

WL Let’s come back. Why did Ham, the son of Noah, get the curse? [Why do you talk about Ham so much? Why did Canaan, the son of Ham get the curse and his descendants end up in the Middle East (not Africa) and became the Canaanites?] Because he was involved in God’s government. [Why was Ham actually bypassed for Canaan, the son of Ham,]He touched God’s authority. Noah, the father, was wrong – no doubt about that. But as you are concerned, you have to consider your position and you have to consider God’s divine government. The leader’s failure, your father’s failure, becomes a test on you. Are you really under God’s government? If you are, you will get the blessing. If not, you will lose the blessing. Whether you are, here’s a test. You say you are, but now something happens. Noah’s failure, the father’s failure right away became a test to all the sons. The same test you may get a blessing out of it. Or you may get a curse out of it. Whether you get a blessing or a curse out of it depends on how you get yourselves involved in God’s government.[two sons got the blessing; one received neither curse nor blessing, Ham].

I tell you the failure of Noah was bad, but it was a good chance for Shem and Japheth to get the blessing. Who will get the blessing? Let me tell you, only those who would be after God’s government. Whenever there is a damage done by Satan done over God’s work. Don’t be bothered by that. You have to stay yourself in God’s government. I tell you, right away you will get the blessing out of that damage by Satan.

Ham missed the golden chance. He should have taken that opportunity to get the golden blessing. He missed it. By what way? By the way of exposing his father. And he was talking about a fact; he was not telling a rumor. He did not tell any lie and did not put out any rumor, he was telling a fact.. But the other two brothers, Shem and Japheth, they knew God’s government. Have you noticed what they did? They wouldn’t even have a glance at the father’s nakedness. They went in backwards with a garment to cover the father without seeing his nakedness. This was not just moral or right. This was something so much under God’s government. Shem and Japheth, they knew God’s government. They went in not to see the failure, but to cover. Let me say a word here – to see other’s failure is not a blessing. Where does gossip come from. Gossip comes altogether from seeing. And hearing. Am I right? All the gossips come from two sources, seeing and hearing. Now we all have to learn, don’t see other’s situation. Don’t try to see other’s situation. That will put you into the involvement of God’s government. It is not a small thing to get yourself involved in God’s government. It is not a small thing.

I do not speak something I don’t know. I am speaking something I saw and I myself have learned so much.

CW Well Dick, this is a very sober word, isn’t it? DT Yes. Clearly there is more involved here than just our behavior. God’s government is something that we must be very careful not to cross or not to handle or apply in a wrong way.

CW How would you apply this to our reactions even to those who are in authority in the church.

DT Probably the main thing for us to consider is that we must have a view of God’s government. The first thing is even just to see it. So this account of Noah even in its failure allows us to clearly see that there is something called God’s government. Yes, there is Noah’s failure. There is this shortage and that shortage, but there is also something called God’s government.

Secondly, you always get the blessing when you remain under God’s government. And, if you in a sense, are exercised to be blind to the mistakes of those who have authority among you, this doesn’t mean that you are blind to division, or blind to immorality, or blind to idol worship. But many people have shortages; they may not do things the way you think they ought to do them.

Those who are in authority, you feel like they could have done something in a better way, they could have spoken something in a clearer way, or whatever. The best thing to realize to get the blessing is to just remember the authority is there. This is God’s government, and just exercise to be blind and keep enjoying Christ. You will be a person who will really get the blessing.

You can see that with Noah’s sons, two sons got the blessing and one son got the curse. Those who got the blessing, were those who were not pinpointing Noah’s mistake. They were not uncovering him. And they were not exposing him. They were not exposing him. The one who got the curse is the one who exposed the failure and the nakedness of the deputy authority.

So in principle we can apply it. Those who are in authority in the church, they may not be this or that and have a shortage here and a shortage there. The best way for you to enjoy the blessing is just to take this government from God and you will enjoy Christ a lot. This will save you from a lot of unnecessary problems and you will be a person who remains in the unceasing enjoyment of Christ. CW This is not an easy point to see. DT No. It is not an easy point to see. CW I think the fellowship is really a help. Thanks for your help today Dick.

http://lsmradio.com/audio/genesis.html

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Old 08-29-2018, 01:02 PM   #95
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Default Re: LSM Church Culture of Hiding Sins

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Witness Lee: “When I was young I was a little bothered that Noah, didn’t confess when he made a mistake. He had a failure and when he woke up he didn’t confess. He didn’t make a confession, but right away he cursed. He cursed the one that exposed his nakedness. I was a little unhappy about this. I said Noah you are the father. But anyhow, don’t you realize that you were wrong? First of all, you have to confess to God, and then confess to the exposing son, Ham. I was bothered. You didn’t confess. Right away you cursed.

Not only so. He cursed the exposing one and blessed the covering ones. Whosoever was for him, he blessed. Whosoever was not for him, he cursed. I said, Noah, surely you are too selfish. When I was a young Christian I was bothered by him, I blamed him. One day the Lord showed me His divine government. I said Noah, you are a good example. Why? Although you got the failure, yet you were still so strong in God’s governmental dealing to speak this prophecy of cursing and blessing. It was hard for Noah to do because it so much corresponded to his failure. It was hard.

If you are going to understand this portion of the divine word, you have to see what the divine government is. It is not just merely a matter of human failure. This is small. Whether the leader is right or wrong, that’s not so serious. But where is God’s government? This is serious.

You see, Ham, the son of Noah who exposed Noah’s nakedness, was careless concerning God’s divine government. He was careless; he was careless. To expose one’s nakedness is a small thing, but to get yourself involved with the divine government, this is another story. We all must see this. Here is one who is the leader, who is the father of God’s family, who is God’s deputy authority on this earth. Now he got a failure. What would be your attitude? This involves you in God’s governmental dealing. Is this clear to you all?
Lee asks, Is this clear to you all? No, not to me.

Show me one leader in the Bible who enjoyed such governmental "privilege" as Noah. This teaching by WL is contradicted by the entire Bible, yet within the LCM, it is a tenet of the faith. Why, because it protected Nee, Lee, and the Blendeds from any responsibility whatsoever for their own failures.

Are we supposed to believe that Lee was today's Noah with such perks as this one? In other words, all those over the years who spoke their conscience during the many corruptions at LSM, they should be cursed. And all those who covered up Lee and Son's criminal activities should be blessed. Is there any teaching on this in the New Testament? I think not.

If this teaching by Lee was true, then the Prophet Samuel should be cursed for rebuking King Saul. The Prophet Nathan should be cursed for exposing King David's adultery and murder of Uriah. Apostle Paul should be cursed for exposing Peter's hypocrisy of not eating with the Gentiles.

This false teaching upends the righteousness of God's throne and hundreds of Biblical events of His judgments, yet Lee calls this "recovered" truth concerning God's "government."
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:15 PM   #96
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Default Cover the Brothers?

In other words this teaching can be described as "cover the brothers". I ask how many generations of parents and children have suffered damage due to this perverted practice? How many?
Answer this, when a victim is treated as a villain, why would they want to stay? Why would they, I or anyone else want to raise children in an environment that covers men behaving despicably?
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:28 PM   #97
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This evil teaching is a license for corruption and unrighteousness. Only the most evil of men would promote it for base gain, and then teach us that we need a heavenly "vision" to see how everything we all know is wrong, and only Lee is "right," so that he could continue without accountability to either God or man.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:01 PM   #98
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Old 08-29-2018, 06:32 PM   #99
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I don't recall if any one has ever made this point. How can you say we have God's life and nature when the Bible clearly points out we are "adoption as sons"? (Romans 8:15, 23, 9:4, Galations 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5)

LSM has omitted the phrase adoption in the RcV translation. Instead the phrase "sonship" is used.
I'm really a very late comer to this post---OBVIOUSLY!!!

While I don't agree with Lee's teachings, I have no problem with the term "sonship." I think---considering our modern American English---it's a far more accurate term than "adoption." First Peter 1:23 makes it clear that we have been begotten by the very "sperma"/sperm of God. We are BORN children of God. However, in the earlier days, kings chose a particular son (or nephew, or even a non-family member) to RECOGNIZE among his offspring as his particular heir (remember how David recognized Solomon among his sons?). THAT son was then "adopted"/recognized as heir for the entitlements of the king. THAT is the sort of "adoption" we Christians have received.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:15 PM   #100
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I'm really a very late comer to this post---OBVIOUSLY!!!

While I don't agree with Lee's teachings, I have no problem with the term "sonship." I think---considering our modern American English---it's a far more accurate term than "adoption." First Peter 1:23 makes it clear that we have been begotten by the very "sperma"/sperm of God. We are BORN children of God. However, in the earlier days, kings chose a particular son (or nephew, or even a non-family member) to RECOGNIZE among his offspring as his particular heir (remember how David recognized Solomon among his sons?). THAT son was then "adopted"/recognized as heir for the entitlements of the king. THAT is the sort of "adoption" we Christians have received.
afazio, there is another side to this truth. I recently read an excellent article about Roman adoption which Apostle Paul spoke of. Here is a segment of an article I quickly googled up. Note that under Roman law, different from what we might naturally think, an adopted son had more rights than a natural born child.
Quote:
The word adoption, during the time and context in which St. Paul spoke, referred to the Roman concept of adoption.

In ancient Rome, adoption had a powerful meaning. When a child was born biologically, the parents had the option of disowning the child for a variety of reasons. The relationship, therefore, was not necessarily desired by the parent, nor permanent.

Not so, however, if a child was adopted. In Rome, adopting a child meant:
  1. That child was freely chosen by the parents, desired by the parents.
  2. That child would be a permanent part of the family; parents couldn’t disown a child they adopted.
An adopted child received a new identity. Any prior commitments, responsibilities and debts were erased. New rights and responsibilities were taken on. Also, in ancient Rome, the concept of inheritance was part of life, not something that began at death. Being adopted made someone an heir to their father, joint-sharers in all his possessions and fully united to him. Think about what that means for us as Christians. Rather than diminish the beautiful reality of being children of God through creation, St. Paul’s theology of the spirit of adoption essentially doubles up on the power and significance of God’s fatherhood.
Witness Lee's failure to do real in-depth study into this matter of ADOPTION caused him to totally misunderstand the truths of scripture written specifically by Paul. His own ignorance on this topic (and many others) puffed him up with pride, deceived him, and thus sadly enabled him to condemn the entire body of Christ.
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Old 08-30-2018, 06:40 AM   #101
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Default Re: Open Letter to Ron Kangas

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I'm really a very late comer to this post---OBVIOUSLY!!!

While I don't agree with Lee's teachings, I have no problem with the term "sonship." I think---considering our modern American English---it's a far more accurate term than "adoption." First Peter 1:23 makes it clear that we have been begotten by the very "sperma"/sperm of God. We are BORN children of God. However, in the earlier days, kings chose a particular son (or nephew, or even a non-family member) to RECOGNIZE among his offspring as his particular heir (remember how David recognized Solomon among his sons?). THAT son was then "adopted"/recognized as heir for the entitlements of the king. THAT is the sort of "adoption" we Christians have received.
I thought WL discussed this, that Sonship includes both concepts, that you are the heir and that you are born of the Father, whereas Adoption does not necessitate being born of the Father.

Child -- simply born

Adopted -- simply heir

Sonship -- both
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Old 08-30-2018, 07:08 AM   #102
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I thought WL discussed this, that Sonship includes both concepts, that you are the heir and that you are born of the Father, whereas Adoption does not necessitate being born of the Father.
WL never discussed that under Roman Law a born son had temporary status and could be disowned, but an adopted son was desired and chosen by his father, and could never be disowned.

Apostle Paul, as a Roman citizen and a lawyer, wrote to the Gentile believers under Roman law. In fact 3 of the 5 times he used this word "huiothesia" were in his epistle to the Romans.

There is no conflict here. WL made one up for personal gain.
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Old 08-30-2018, 10:54 AM   #103
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WL never discussed that under Roman Law a born son had temporary status and could be disowned, but an adopted son was desired and chosen by his father, and could never be disowned.

Apostle Paul, as a Roman citizen and a lawyer, wrote to the Gentile believers under Roman law. In fact 3 of the 5 times he used this word "huiothesia" were in his epistle to the Romans.

There is no conflict here. WL made one up for personal gain.
Some versions render the Greek word for sonship in Ephesians 1:5 as “adoption.” Although this rendering is not wrong, it is easily misunderstood. (Basic Training, Chapter 3, Section 4)

Seems reasonable to me that many might misunderstand the term "adoption".
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Old 08-30-2018, 11:32 AM   #104
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Some versions render the Greek word for sonship in Ephesians 1:5 as “adoption.” Although this rendering is not wrong, it is easily misunderstood. (Basic Training, Chapter 3, Section 4)

Seems reasonable to me that many might misunderstand the term "adoption".
WL got his understanding from W.E. Vine. Vine said "adoption is a mistranslation and misleading. God does not 'adopt' believers as children."

Drake loves to jump in on every theological discussion, but is noticeably silent here. Why did Lee not dig a little deeper than Vine, and arrive at the riches of His grace in Paul's legal use of the Roman law for "adoption."

Perhaps one of those "nothing-of-value books in Christianity since 1945" contained some fresh anointing? Didn't LSM sing that song ...
We limit not the truth of God
To our poor reach of mind,
By notions of our day and sect,
Crude, partial and confined.
Now let a new and better hope
Within our hearts be stirred:
The Lord hath yet more light and truth
To break forth from His Word.

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Old 08-30-2018, 02:16 PM   #105
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WL got his understanding from W.E. Vine. Vine said "adoption is a mistranslation and misleading. God does not 'adopt' believers as children."

Drake loves to jump in on every theological discussion, but is noticeably silent here. Why did Lee not dig a little deeper than Vine, and arrive at the riches of His grace in Paul's legal use of the Roman law for "adoption."

Perhaps one of those "nothing-of-value books in Christianity since 1945" contained some fresh anointing? Didn't LSM sing that song ...
We limit not the truth of God
To our poor reach of mind,
By notions of our day and sect,
Crude, partial and confined.
Now let a new and better hope
Within our hearts be stirred:
The Lord hath yet more light and truth
To break forth from His Word.

Can you show me a quote? The quote I provided is very clear that he did not teach that it was a mistranslation. His point in the quote I provided is that "adoption" is not wrong, that is he understands the meaning as legally assigning an heir. However, it can be misunderstood, most today would not know this meaning but rather assume it means we are not actually children of God.
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Old 08-30-2018, 05:49 PM   #106
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Can you show me a quote? The quote I provided is very clear that he did not teach that it was a mistranslation. His point in the quote I provided is that "adoption" is not wrong, that is he understands the meaning as legally assigning an heir. However, it can be misunderstood, most today would not know this meaning but rather assume it means we are not actually children of God.

I gave you several quotes. Only those in the LC misunderstand what "adoption" means and does not mean.
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Old 08-30-2018, 09:45 PM   #107
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I gave you several quotes. Only those in the LC misunderstand what "adoption" means and does not mean.
The United Church of God also follow Vines commentary re sonship v adoption (I found an article on line). But the great majority of translators and commentaries use adoption. I’ve come to see the richness of starting as sons of wrath and ending as sons of God through adoption too. Though I see the arguments that cite our being born again, and lean that way.

I posted on this last night too hastily and edited my response this morning. Maybe this is part of the mystery of the faith that remains to be unveiled completely after Jesus’ return. There is something miraculous about it, because full adoption (or sonship) includes the transfiguration of our mortal bodies. Only God can and does that.
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Last edited by JJ; 08-31-2018 at 07:10 AM. Reason: Posted too hastily last night
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Old 08-31-2018, 06:12 AM   #108
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I gave you several quotes. Only those in the LC misunderstand what "adoption" means and does not mean.
I was in the Episcopal church and have met many Christians over the last 40+ years who do not understand what adoption means.

http://www.onefaithonechurch.com/are...-cant-be-both/

No reason to have this article if there isn't confusion. The confusion is very simple, the term "adoption" today does not have the significance of being assigned as an heir.

If you translate the word as "adoption" then by necessity you have to then teach every believer what is actually meant by this term. Walk up to any young gospel contact and ask them the meaning of adoption, out of 100 you won't typically find one that knows this definition.
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Old 08-31-2018, 08:19 AM   #109
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I was in the Episcopal church and have met many Christians over the last 40+ years who do not understand what adoption means.

http://www.onefaithonechurch.com/are...-cant-be-both/

No reason to have this article if there isn't confusion. The confusion is very simple, the term "adoption" today does not have the significance of being assigned as an heir.

If you translate the word as "adoption" then by necessity you have to then teach every believer what is actually meant by this term. Walk up to any young gospel contact and ask them the meaning of adoption, out of 100 you won't typically find one that knows this definition.
Walk up to 100 Christians and not one will know the deep, significant meaning of the Greek work "oikonomia" either. Yet Lee and those in the LC's made it their life's goal to inform them that it meant "God's Economy" in the original.

Point is that Lee used both of these these Greek words to let it be known that he was better than all of poor, degraded Christianity. As a teacher he stood alone in all the body of Christ. They were blind and ignorant to the truths of scripture, and he alone was going to "recover" these truths, missed by all, whether he knew what he was talking about or not.

If "most Christians" do not properly appreciate the depths of Paul's unique use of the Roman legal word for "adoption," then rather than condemning them in front of all the LC's, he should plumb the depths of this truth, and teach that, which he never did. Instead Lee took the word at face value and used it to criticize the entire Christian public. Most decent teachers and ministers would never do this.

The reason for me to even address this topic was my wife's life-long distaste for Paul's use of the word "adoption," which she received from Lee. She preferred "born again" children of God. Though I would explain that there was no conflict, and both were simultaneously true, addressing our status as sons of God from different directions, she was pickled by Lee's exclusive teaching and unchanging.

Then one day recently I came across a few websites explaining Paul's use of adoption based on Roman law and showed her an article on the rich benefits of Roman "adoption," and she was instantly transformed by the renewing of her mind. The truth had set her free!
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Old 08-31-2018, 04:04 PM   #110
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Walk up to 100 Christians and not one will know the deep, significant meaning of the Greek work "oikonomia" either. Yet Lee and those in the LC's made it their life's goal to inform them that it meant "God's Economy" in the original.

Then one day recently I came across a few websites explaining Paul's use of adoption based on Roman law and showed her an article on the rich benefits of Roman "adoption," and she was instantly transformed by the renewing of her mind. The truth had set her free!
That is a good point regarding "oikonomia"!

Regarding adoption, there is a brother here that is fond of speaking about the Roman law aspect too - very good!

So we're all "recovering" it seems . . .
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