Pagan's, atheist's, and Local Church Discussions

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks to you and KindnessNotBlindness for taking the time to register and post on our forum. While I wouldn't say "this forum is only for Christians", I must tell you that the general worldview and understanding of the grand metanerrative of the vast majority of our forum members is evangelical/orthodox. Above and beyond this, I would also tell you that for many (most?) of us the answer to false religion is not to abandon the God of the Bible, or the Judeo-Christian Scriptures from which He speaks, but rather to seek Him more fervently and ever more closely through the Truth, light, grace and mercy provided for us in those Scriptures, and the Spirit of Truth who will "guide us into all truth".

As you have already discovered, we have set up a sub-forum for discussions between folks who have a decidedly different worldview and even those who consider themselves as atheist, or at least agnostic. I think you and KnB would find yourselves much more comfortable over on AltViews. It was perfectly fine for you guys to post your opening introductions/testimonies on that this sub-forum, but for further, more comprehensive/in depth discussions, I really think AltViews is more up your alley.

Thanks again for registering and posting.

UntoHim
-

This is so sad. Exclusivity always gets to me. It reminds me of the local church.

The bulk of this forum is made up of former local church members. I remember coming out of the local church and how much it hurt my then wife and I. We cried for days. It was a loss like that of losing a loved one, and trauma that can't be forgotten.

So shouldn't we stand for and with those that have left? Shouldn't we open our arms to any and all that have left or got the boot, especially if they are still hurting? I guess not. Not unless they profess to be evangelicals.

I appreciate the effort to allow such ones, that aren't necessarily evangelical, to have a separate section, apart from the "evangelical" open forum ... but that section is frowned upon, by most on the forum, BECAUSE it's not necessarily evangelical. That's why I joke and say it's next door to Tartarus.

These girls grew up in the local church. They've gone thru hell and back by leaving. And they've finally found happiness. Their testimonies are heart warming, and moving ... and they want to, need to, share them.

I welcome them in AltVs, but I think they want to reach out to lots of other former members, cuz they thought they found others that could identify with what they've gone thru. But they are being rejected, and told to go away, and go to Tartarus, so to speak. How's that going to make them feel? Is dogma more important than caring for exLCers, that are hurting?

Bro Untohim, I love you, even tho you throttle me from time to time, cuz, I know, I deserve it. But these girls don't deserve it. It makes me wonder, by your tendency to this dogmatic divisiveness, if you've not still got lots of local church still sloshing are 'in there,' that you need to keep working on, and working 'out.'

Maybe you took out the wrong domain name. Maybe it should be called something like "evangelicalsdiscussingthelocalchurch.com" then there wouldn't be any confusion. You didn't. The present domain name seems to welcome all those that want to discuss the local church, not just evangelicals.

Untohim, you own the domain, you're paying the expenses for the forum (thank you). But if you intended to make it a forum for exLCers that are evangelicals, you need to have an introductory banner that states that. Then ex-members like Mysteria and KindneeNotBlindness wouldn't even bother joining the forum.

Essentially, you thanked them for joining the forum, and then pretty much told them to go to Tartarus (here).

I wouldn't blame them for running away from this craziness as fast as they can. And I like them. They've got lots of stories to tell us, about growing up in the LC, and afterwards. Isn't that what LCD is all about? I guess not.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

I appreciate the effort to allow such ones, that aren't necessarily evangelical, to have a separate section, apart from the "evangelical" open forum ... but that section is frowned upon, by most on the forum, BECAUSE it's not necessarily evangelical. That's why I joke and say it's next door to Tartarus.
I welcome them in AltVs, but I think they want to reach out to lots of other former members, cuz they thought they found others that could identify with what they've gone thru. But they are being rejected, and told to go away, and go to Tartarus, so to speak. How's that going to make them feel? Is dogma more important than caring for exLCers, that are hurting?

I find it really ironic that Harold is using the very venue provided for non-Christian discussions to whine and cry about having a place for non-Christian discussions! Talk about sad.

As a stone cold atheist you should be welcoming these people here on your little island where anything goes - a sanctuary for those who believe in nothing and have faith in nothing. The only truth is that there isn't any truth. Why on earth would you want to give up this paradise?
-

[awareness]

I'm hoping bro Untoihim will relent on this matter. There's no reason at all why any of us, evangelical or not, can't discuss atheism and/or paganism.

Note:
The early Christians were called atheists.

And:
Christianity owes the pagans a debt of gratitude ... just for the word Logos ... but much more.

I get it, really. Those atheists and pagans are scary. To evangelicals, they're like creatures from the Black Lagoon ; monsters under the bed ... or more likely, lurking in the subconscious ... maybe as imaginary enemies. We wouldn't be human if we didn't have somebody to hate.

Is it possible to be more than human? I've heard of this wonderful divine gift called "Amazing Grace." I think something like that is needed for us to become more than human. I know plenty of human grace. Y'all offer that to me all the time.

The way I see it : humanness is very very stubborn ; and ubiquitous and dominate. Couldn't God fix it with a snap of a finger? Does He really have to have us down here running around like a bunch of smart, but dumb, monkeys?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by awareness

There's no reason at all why any of us, evangelical or not, can't discuss atheism and/or paganism.

Right. You're right here, doing it right now!
Isn't this fun?
Carry on, carry on....
-

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Right. You're right here, doing it right now!
Isn't this fun?
Carry on, carry on....
-

Thanks brother, for the blessing an encouragement. The sad thing is, I think the girls have flew the coop.

[Evangelical]

I'm sure you'll all have something to talk about this coming Yule/Christmas, Easter, etc.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm sure you'll all have something to talk about this coming Yule/Christmas, Easter, etc.

Hey, that's right, with good ol' St. Nicolas and the Easter bunny, that lays eggs. All the bunny and egg business is about fecundity. That's when the pagans have orgies, or should.

[Guest M]

Ugh. I can't read this whole thread today. UntoHim's words are pretty disrespectful and hurtful: telling people who are different that they believe in nothing. They are also unfortunately ignorant and narrow-minded.
But...that's fine. Whatever. I'm not here to win approval or agreement.
I'm here because according to the forum owner, who says there is no rule to profess evangelical belief in the Christian faith, I have a right to be here.

I came to the Alternative Views section out of respect, and I also made my own separate blog for that and to have my own space, but I do not see myself as relegated here. For the topics I offered to talk about, this seems like the most appropriate place. But unless or until I am told otherwise, or there is a public rule written, I'm going to use my judgement and speak freely on any thread here, as I see others doing.

To be honest, when I see people reacting that way to me and others, even though it to some extent DOES re-enact trauma, I also understand. I see the same trauma mirrored in them that I experienced. No matter what, we have that trauma in common. I am unusual (maybe? Maybe not...) in how much I've been able to break free to the point that I could make an entire paradigm shift. That is not easy to do. So much of religious groups like the lc, regardless of the religion, is built on fear. Fear is not easy to get away from when it's been embedded for so long. So I know how uncomfortable it is to stray too far from the known and familiar.

I respect people for being wherever they need to be. I wish and hope they would do the same for me, and I know that sometimes when they aren't, they don't realize it and they think they actually are being supportive.

One of the things that has made it difficult to talk about and deal with my lc history is this...this effect, amplified by the internet and social media, where the minute you decide to tell your story, you now have to deal with the reactions. I have not actually been courageous enough to face that yet. I am only doing it now because stories have a way of building up inside a person until they spill over. To be honest, I'd like to pretend the lc and all that came with it in my life never happened to me. But it did. So it's time to acknowledge it.

Let me just say awareness, I really appreciate your comments about what we've been through. Thank you for seeing us. Kindness has already left actually...she said something about "full of Republican brothers who are just mad because they never got to be leading brothers." LOL ouch. I have no idea what she encountered. But she's happy without being reminded of that trauma, so good for her. But I already miss her.

Myself...I kinda seem to need to be here, even though I am still alone in many ways as evidenced by UntoHim's decision to define my experience in terms more comfortable to him, rather than being open to someone else's reality and respectful. this is par for the course for me dealing with Christians, and since I was one myself, I don't really expect anything different. Evangelical Christians are in my experience among the LEAST accepting, judgement-less, and loving people most other people encounter.


Many are not, but the flavor is so bad for people traumatized by them, that they usually just avoid them altogether. I cannot think of anything more tragic than to follow desperately a belief based on love and compassion, and to fail at it so hard and so consistently that people would rather turn the lights out and pretend not to be home, then to answer the door to strangers who want them to take books they think they need. But there seem to be many people here who are supportive, and UntoHim seems to be supportive to the extent he is able. I appreciate that. I am not completely alone. We were all there.

However, I'm thinking it may be good to find out where else other ex lc members who don't fit in here may be. I said I am unusual...but i may not be at all. In fact, I think there are quite a few who are now athiests...most of them are probably not here!

Needless to say, I do believe in something, and that's good enough. There is no one who needs to sign off to give me or anyone else permission. There is no one's approval I need. I have my own lived experience. There is no one here with ANY spiritual authority to invalidate my experience or anyone else's.

I am thankful to live in a country and age when a person's sovereignty over their mind and their body is, for the most part, universally recognized. In any other age, I'd be a person's property right now, possibly having gone through several owners. That knowledge, as a woman, let alone a person of color, is something no "brother" can possibly relate to or understand, or will ever have to face. Those of us who were "sisters" and got out are not faint of heart. We couldn't have gotten out if we weren't exceptionally strong, in ways most ex "brothers" will not have to be.

*sigh* I don't want to be disagreeable. I realize I am coming down hard. But...I have just been insulted...kinda not being given a choice here but to have to defend myself. I wouldn't have to if I weren't being attacked.

:/

Originally Posted by awareness

This is so sad. Exclusivity always gets to me. It reminds me of the local church.

The bulk of this forum is made up of former local church members. I remember coming out of the local church and how much it hurt my then wife and I. We cried for days. It was a loss like that of losing a loved one, and trauma that can't be forgotten.

So shouldn't we stand for and with those that have left? Shouldn't we open our arms to any and all that have left or got the boot, especially if they are still hurting? I guess not. Not unless they profess to be evangelicals.

I appreciate the effort to allow such ones, that aren't necessarily evangelical, to have a separate section, apart from the "evangelical" open forum ... but that section is frowned upon, by most on the forum, BECAUSE it's not necessarily evangelical. That's why I joke and say it's next door to Tartarus.

These girls grew up in the local church. They've gone thru hell and back by leaving. And they've finally found happiness. Their testimonies are heart warming, and moving ... and they want to, need to, share them.

I welcome them in AltVs, but I think they want to reach out to lots of other former members, cuz they thought they found others that could identify with what they've gone thru. But they are being rejected, and told to go away, and go to Tartarus, so to speak. How's that going to make them feel? Is dogma more important than caring for exLCers, that are hurting?

Bro Untohim, I love you, even tho you throttle me from time to time, cuz, I know, I deserve it. But these girls don't deserve it. It makes me wonder, by your tendency to this dogmatic divisiveness, if you've not still got lots of local church still sloshing are 'in there,' that you need to keep working on, and working 'out.'

Maybe you took out the wrong domain name. Maybe it should be called something like "evangelicalsdiscussingthelocalchurch.com" then there wouldn't be any confusion. You didn't. The present domain name seems to welcome all those that want to discuss the local church, not just evangelicals.

Untohim, you own the domain, you're paying the expenses for the forum (thank you). But if you intended to make it a forum for exLCers that are evangelicals, you need to have an introductory banner that states that. Then ex-members like Mysteria and KindneeNotBlindness wouldn't even bother joining the forum.

Essentially, you thanked them for joining the forum, and then pretty much told them to go to Tartarus (here).

I wouldn't blame them for running away from this craziness as fast as they can. And I like them. They've got lots of stories to tell us, about growing up in the LC, and afterwards. Isn't that what LCD is all about? I guess not.

[awareness]

GuestM, Your post(s) (left below) are hard to respond to. I don't wish to profane them, with my stupid analytical reactions. However, I feel strongly the need to respond. So some comments:

You are unique sister (may I call you that). For one thing, you grew up in the local church. That's an intensity I'm completely unfamiliar with.

I know the pain and trauma I went thru upon leaving. But not that of leaving after growing up in it. In my teens I walked away from the Southern Baptist I grew up in, into eastern religions, meditation, and entertaining other religions. That got pushed out when I joined the local church. I got a good talking too about that. I became analytical after walking away from all that, from both of them. I don't consider myself to be an evangelical. That would be going backward to me ... into bondage ... as I see it.

Evangelicals, as most all monotheists, aren't known for tolerance. That's been true of monotheism since it's inception in Egypt with King Akhenaten in 1300 BCE. That's likely where the Hebrews got it from.

Yes, we all share in the trauma of the local church. But some have gotten more free of it. It takes time, depending on the investment level, of time and life. The lc packed a wallop.

I miss Kindness ...

Blessings ...
Harold

[Guest M]

Harold, that is sweet of you. i will tell her you said so.

I am uncertain if revisiting this history is doing me good right now. I mean it came up, so I figured maybe some things needed to be resolved. But I also want to move on! lol

I am not great at that, actually. I have been blessed/cursed with a really good memory, and I often remember things in my family no one else seems to. It's WEIRD.

But anywhoo...I don't want to be enslaved to my past. Working it out...

Originally Posted by awareness

Mysteria, Your post(s) (left below) are hard to respond to. I don't wish to profane them, with my stupid analytical reactions. However, I feel strongly the need to respond. So some comments:

You are unique sister (may I call you that). For one thing, you grew up in the local church. That's an intensity I'm completely unfamiliar with.

I know the pain and trauma I went thru upon leaving. But not that of leaving after growing up in it. In my teens I walked away from the Southern Baptist I grew up in, into eastern religions, meditation, and entertaining other religions. That got pushed out when I joined the local church. I got a good talking too about that. I became analytical after walking away from all that, from both of them. I don't consider myself to be an evangelical. That would be going backward to me ... into bondage ... as I see it.

Evangelicals, as most all monotheists, aren't known for tolerance. That's been true of monotheism since it's inception in Egypt with King Akhenaten in 1300 BCE. That's likely where the Hebrews got it from.

Yes, we all share in the trauma of the local church. But some have gotten more free of it. It takes time, depending on the investment level, of time and life. The lc packed a wallop.

I miss Kindness ...

Blessings ...
Harold


-----------------------------

[Intothewind]

Thank you for sharing your rebuttal and story. Know that you are not alone in not being an evangelical Christian here.

(I don't post too frequently anymore, but the forum was a helpful source of history when I was going through the process).

On a shallow level, it appears I flip flopped from being an envangelical(LC) Christian into essentially a humanist atheist(perhaps then more similar to knb?)....but on a deeper level I don't think I have changed much, but the real me has been since allowed to flourish to full potential. Live, live! Writing in from the Peruvian Amazon, there is so much more to life than the local church

[awareness]

I'm not sure where to put this, so I'm putting it here. When reading Dr. Bart Ehrman's "Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene" I came across this on Paganism back in Jesus' day :

"Living in a Pagan World
Even more important than his native tongue is the fact that as a Jew in the Diaspora, Paul would have been surrounded by people embracing religions other than Judaism. Paul, unlike Jesus or Peter, was born and raised in a non-Jewish, “pagan” environment.

Demographic figures are difficult to come by for the ancient world, but most scholars put the population of the Roman Empire at this time at around sixty million people, with something like 7 percent of them Jews. Judaism, in other words, was a small minority religion in the empire as a whole. It is not that all other people were the same religion. Quite the contrary— there were hundreds and hundreds of religions around, all of them “minorities” when placed over against the rest of the populace. But most of the other religions held certain beliefs and practices in common, and to that extent it is possible to label them as “pagan.”

It is impossible to do justice to the wide range of ancient pagan religions in just a few paragraphs, but a couple of broad generalizations can serve my purposes here. For one thing, all these religions were polytheistic, that is, they all believed in and worshiped many gods. For pagans, there were all sorts of gods and goddesses for all sorts of places and all sorts of functions. There were, of course, the great state gods, including those of Greek and Roman mythology, such as Zeus, Apollo, and Athena. These were understood to be superior, say, to local deities. But there were many other gods as well: gods of the fields, streams, and forests, gods of the cities and towns, gods of the home and hearth, gods of war and peace. There were gods who looked over the various aspects of human life that humans themselves were unable to control: weather, growth of crops, fertility of livestock, health, childbirth. All of these gods deserved worship. No one— apart from the Jews— thought that only one god was worthy of worship. For ancient peoples any such view was literally nonsense. Saying you were to worship only one god was like saying you were to have only one acquaintance or eat only one food or engage in only one activity.

There were two principal ways these various gods were worshiped throughout the empire: by prayer and by acts of sacrifice. Sacrifices were usually of foodstuffs, both vegetable and animal. Some kinds of sacrifices could be made almost anywhere, for example, pouring out a little wine as a sacrifice to the gods before eating, wherever you happened to be. Others, such as annual animal sacrifices on certain holy days, were to be made by specially appointed priests in sacred places, temples.

It was through proper worship that the gods were kept at peace, and so were inclined to do what was good for humans. If they were not placated sufficiently, disasters could happen: drought, famine, epidemic, earthquake, military defeat, and on and on.

There is almost nothing to suggest that any of the pagan religions was exclusive in nature, that is, that any of the gods insisted that if you worshiped him or her, you could not also worship other gods. In fact, the widespread assumption was that all the gods— as superhuman beings— deserved their due; worshiping one had no bearing on whether you also wanted to or were allowed to worship another.

The worship of these gods was typically undertaken according to long-standing, sometimes very ancient custom, in which ritualistic acts of prayer and sacrifice were followed according to set patterns, handed down from one generation to the next. In almost none of these religions were there sacred books containing revelations from the deity concerning how worship was to be conducted. And there was almost no sense of a divine revelation from the deity that was to govern what one was to believe or how one was to behave in daily life. In fact, both doctrine and ethics were of little concern to the pagan religions. This is not to say that pagans were unethical; on the contrary, so far as we can tell, most ancient pagans were about as ethical as most people are today. But ethics was not something taught within the religions, which instead focused on proper modes of prayer and sacrifice to the gods.
~ Ehrman, Bart D.. Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene: The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend (p. 103). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.