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If you really Nee to know Who was Watchman Nee? Discussions regarding the life and times of Watchman Nee, the Little Flock and the beginnings of the Local Church Movement in Mainland China

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Old 03-15-2016, 04:13 PM   #1
Freedom
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Default Final Recovery

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With each step that the Lord has taken in His recovery, the content of His recovery has become richer and richer. Today, it seems as if there is nothing more to be recovered. The recovery today has reached the stage of the Body. Perhaps this will be the last recovery. There may be other items of recovery, but as far as we know, when we reach the recovery of the coordination of the Body and the manifestation of authority, we have reached the final recovery.

(Messages Given During the Resumption of Watchman Nee's Ministry, Chapter 43)
I saw the above post on Facebook recently and it caught my attention. According to Nee, the "final recovery" was reached as a result of two things that he alone uncovered: 1)the coordination of the Body 2)the manifestation of authority (the 2nd one is a real knee-slapper ). As is evidenced by this quote, Nee did indeed leave the door open for other so-called items of recovery, but he somewhat confidently stated that what he saw was what consisted of a final recovery. It is particularly interesting that the way in which Nee could characterize the final recovery is vastly different from what Lee characterized it as. The so-called manifestation of authority, though an important aspect of the LC, is not something that most members would included on a list of items that the LC has supposedly "recovered". This is the kind of discrepancy that needs some explanation on the part of LCers.

Since Lee himself called Nee a Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age, how could it be that Nee missed his "high peak" completely? Let's say a local church formed using Nee's two items of recovery as their basis, with no thought whatsoever being given to Lee's high peak. They wouldn't even be considered an official LC franchise by today's standards. Who knows if Nee himself would have ever been able to swallow Lee's high peak. At any rate, it is highly ironic that WN and WL both purported that something completely different as encompassing a final recovery.

Obviously, the real issue here is the very notion of there being a final recovery or even a recovery taking place today. With respect to the LC, the whole notion is absurd, but it's definitely not unheard of for people to become enamored with these notions of recovery/revival. I don't necessarily throw out the need for certain types of revival from time to time, you can really only place so much importance on these kinds of events.

The LC, in claiming to be in a state of final recovery, has encapsulated their whole and theme goal into a slogan, "God became man to make man God..." WL's high peak is now over 20 years old. There is nothing up-to-date about it (not that there was in the first place), and Lee effectively closed the door to what Nee calls "new items of recovery". I think that some in the LC must wonder that despite having the teachings that encompass the so-called final recovery, and having reached the "high peak", why that hasn't brought about the end yet? This question was in my mind for many years, and I can't say that I ever heard a good answer to it. I always heard people say here and there that if only such and such happened that it would bring the Lord back. They will run around in circles endlessly as long as they think that recovery is anything significant.

According to Colossians 1:20, the recovery (reconciliation) was something that happened almost 2000 years ago. With that in mind no one should be claiming that their man-made movement is somehow more important than the true act of recovery. Those in the LC like to use the church in Philadelphia as a metaphor for the so-called recovered church (I believe the RcV outline calls it that). I would ask LCers, where does it say in the text that recovery is a characteristic element of the church in Philadelphia? The church in Philadelphia is characterized by faithfulness and endurance, not recovery. Actually, recovery is a far cry from endurance.
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Old 03-15-2016, 05:23 PM   #2
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Default Re: Final Recovery

The danger lies in leaving the simplicity that is in Christ and "extending" the revelations Paul received directly from the Lord. Our brother Paul never mentions nor does he allude to any of the add-on theology of LSM. Much of the imaginative extensions produced by them have more to do with maintaining absolute authority over the members of their business franchises. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Reminds me of the old Star Trek episode; The return of the Archons. The computer was the absolute authority that you dare not disobey, and the brainwashed citizens were called The Body. If you were not part of The Body ( controlled by the computer) you were absorbed.
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Old 03-15-2016, 06:30 PM   #3
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The danger lies in leaving the simplicity that is in Christ and "extending" the revelations Paul received directly from the Lord. Our brother Paul never mentions nor does he allude to any of the add-on theology of LSM. Much of the imaginative extensions produced by them have more to do with maintaining absolute authority over the members of their business franchises. A little leaven levens the whole lump.

Reminds me of the old Star Trek episode; The return of the Archons. The computer was the absolute authority that you dare not disobey, and the brainwashed citizens were called The Body. If you were not part of The Body ( controlled by the computer) you were absorbed.
I’m glad that you caught onto the underlying point that I wanted to make. As you say, Paul warned against being distracted from the simplicity that is in Christ. How are people distracted? A big way is by those who preach a different Jesus or gospel.

Simplicity is the antithesis of esoteric teachings or these notions of there being an ongoing recovery of things that were previously “locked” or hidden away. What we need is found in the Bible, it’s all there - black and white. The more I read the Bible without LSM commentary, the more I realize how overly-complicated the LC makes things, and that is not even to mention all the things that need to be rejected outright.

This notion of recovery is something that people unwittingly allow themselves to be baited by. A lot of people want to be made to feel special more or less, so this is an emotion that both Nee and Lee knew how to take advantage of. From the quote that I posted, it is clear that Nee wasn’t just about the ground of locality. He was just as much about authority, even so much so that it was considered a main item that was recovered by him. Had I not seen this quote, I would have thought that his teachings on authority were just a tool that he employed on the side. Not so at all, actually, it was quite to the contrary.

The notion that some kind of continual recovery exists seems to open the door for all kinds of add-on theology. All the sudden, anything goes and unsurprisingly it is at the whim of the current "MOTA". Lee made completely different assertions than Nee. He was not standing on Nee’s shoulders, nor was he Nee’s "continuation". He simply saw the leadership model that Nee set and utilized it, all the while introducing his own teachings. The blendeds failed to see what was really going on (to a certain extent), and reduced themselves to being Lee’s parrots. Of course they gain podiums for themselves and a measure of respect, so they did catch on to the whole authority structure.
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: Final Recovery

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With each step that the Lord has taken in His recovery, the content of His recovery has become richer and richer. Today, it seems as if there is nothing more to be recovered. The recovery today has reached the stage of the Body. Perhaps this will be the last recovery. There may be other items of recovery, but as far as we know, when we reach the recovery of the coordination of the Body and the manifestation of authority, we have reached the final recovery.
(Messages Given During the Resumption of Watchman Nee's Ministry, Chapter 43)
Recently an old LC friend called me, and asked if I would help him with some research on "the recovery" of the truths. He is caring for a new congregation of backwoods believers, and apparently wanted to validate the "new truths" he was passing on to them, by providing the history of each "recovery." Of course, it would start with the background of the dark ages, and then justification by faith "recovered" by Martin Luther would start the whole process.

I frankly couldn't do it. There was a time when I could do this almost from memory, but not any more. I just don't believe it any more. After all the historical misinformation and self-serving distortions I have received from Lee over the years, I have no heart to once again rehearse Lee's hagiography of the "recovery." I think I now prefer Andrew Murray's "silver line of God's grace" thematic depiction of church history. Murray makes it clear that true believers, loving only the truths of His word, always existed since Acts, even during the dark ages.
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:03 PM   #5
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Default Re: Final Recovery

Hey Freedom, I am trying to learn why I can use the forum's "quote" feature on your post #1, but not on your post #3. This happens all the time to me. Ugh!

Did you use another word editor for #3, and cut and paste into the forum, or just use the LCD editor?
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Old 03-15-2016, 08:24 PM   #6
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Hey Freedom, I am trying to learn why I can use the forum's "quote" feature on your post #1, but not on your post #3. This happens all the time to me. Ugh!

Did you use another word editor for #3, and cut and paste into the forum, or just use the LCD editor?
I always compose my posts in Word, then copy to notepad (to remove the Microsoft formatting), and then paste to the forum. If I am quoting someone, I manually copy their text and then add the QUOTE tags.

The quote button was working earlier, which is rare. It seemed to work this time too. It seems that it stops working with longer posts.
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Old 03-16-2016, 06:26 PM   #7
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I always heard people say here and there that if only such and such happened that it would bring the Lord back. They will run around in circles endlessly as long as they think that recovery is anything significant.
Towards the end of my high school era in 1986 door knocking began in my locality. My serving brother (now an elder) alluded to bringing the Lord back by 2000. The New Way was heralded as being "organic". Where is the fruit?
I'm sure then as it is now, it's "the saints aren't absolute enough". Certainly not a systemic problem. Only if the saints were more absolute, the Lord will return. Now, I don't believe it to be a case of the Lord being limited to what LSM is promoting or not promoting. From a high peak view, I don't believe saints meeting in LSM churches are any more significant than saints meeting in non-LSM churches. We're all children of God.
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:32 AM   #8
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The notion that some kind of continual recovery exists seems to open the door for all kinds of add-on theology. All the sudden, anything goes and unsurprisingly it is at the whim of the current "MOTA". Lee made completely different assertions than Nee. He was not standing on Nee’s shoulders, nor was he Nee’s "continuation". He simply saw the leadership model that Nee set and utilized it, all the while introducing his own teachings. The blendeds failed to see what was really going on (to a certain extent), and reduced themselves to being Lee’s parrots. Of course they gain podiums for themselves and a measure of respect, so they did catch on to the whole authority structure.
This is good, and deserves to be re-posted, and re-read. "Again, I say unto you..."
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Old 03-17-2016, 05:50 AM   #9
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According to Nee, the "final recovery" was reached as a result of two things that he alone uncovered: 1)the coordination of the Body 2) the manifestation of authority... As is evidenced by this quote, Nee did indeed leave the door open for other so-called items of recovery, but he somewhat confidently stated that what he saw was what consisted of a final recovery. It is particularly interesting that the way in which Nee could characterize the final recovery is vastly different from what Lee characterized it as. The so-called manifestation of authority, though an important aspect of the LC, is not something that most members would included on a list of items that the LC has supposedly "recovered". This is the kind of discrepancy that needs some explanation on the part of LCers.
As I noted elsewhere, Nee was initially in fellowship with Leland Wang, a serving and zealous believer who became a noted Christian minister. Leland Wang also was perfected under Miss Barber, and is probably one of the older ones Nee famously chafed under (Wang was, I believe, 6 yrs older). Wang rented the hall that began the Shanghai Christian Assembly.

So how did Nee get out from under Wang? He "recovered" an item of "truth" which allowed him to move away, because of course Wang didn't get the recovered revelation (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Once free of any constraints, Nee "recovered" the "truth" of "authority". Then he could be Number One.

And the clear word of scripture, that we should love one another, receive one another in Christ, serve one another, encourage one another, and testify of the gospel, together, to the unbelievers, gets set aside. The "final revelation" has made it of none effect.

It reminds me of the ones who supposedly recovered the apostolic ministry. I am thinking of the Lakeland Fla/Toronto Airport "outpoured blessing" people. They think the so-called manifestations of the Spirit were due to the recovery of the apostolic position, and rushed to anoint themselves and one another the apostles of God on earth today, who would become vehicles for God's outpoured Spirit "in the last days."

If you hear the transcription of the speaking of these so-called apostles, they are so excited that they are barely coherent. "God is in my shoe! God is in my shoe!!" One of them, Todd Bentley, decided the Holy Spirit wanted him to dump his wife and set up with another acolyte. Etc etc.

Nee was obviously much more coherent (almost anyone is more coherent than that), but still suffered from the delusion and self-obsession of one who felt himself (not Jesus Christ) to be the center of God's will. I think that Nee's down fall was when Margaret Barber, herself not under any covering of fellowship, warned Nee to stay away from unbalanced spiritual writings, and he snuck off and got them anyway. Thus the obsession was fed, and grew, and formed and bore fruit from a great tree. Shouters, anyone? Eastern Lightning? Lord's Recovery? Titus Chu? Arvore da Vida? It's all there, in spades.
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Old 03-17-2016, 06:41 AM   #10
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So how did Nee get out from under Wang? He "recovered" an item of "truth" which allowed him to move away, because of course Wang didn't get the recovered revelation (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Once free of any constraints, Nee "recovered" the "truth" of "authority". Then he could be Number One.

And the clear word of scripture, that we should love one another, receive one another in Christ, serve one another, encourage one another, and testify of the gospel, together, to the unbelievers, gets set aside. The "final revelation" has made it of none effect.

It reminds me of the ones who supposedly recovered the apostolic ministry. I am thinking of the Lakeland Fla/Toronto Airport "outpoured blessing" people. They think the so-called manifestations of the Spirit were due to the recovery of the apostolic position, and rushed to anoint themselves and one another the apostles of God on earth today, who would become vehicles for God's outpoured Spirit "in the last days."
People who follow those like Nee and Lee are enamored by the idea that their group has "recovered" something that no one else has. This keeps them from realizing that from the perspective of their leader, claiming to have "recovered" something is nothing more than an excuse for the leader to separate from peers.

One the group has distinguished itself from others, there is room for increasingly bizarre claims, such as what Nee said about the manifestation of authority. It seems all these types of "apostles" claim to have "recovered" something about authority.
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Old 03-17-2016, 04:01 PM   #11
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People who follow those like Nee and Lee are enamored by the idea that their group has "recovered" something that no one else has. This keeps them from realizing that from the perspective of their leader, claiming to have "recovered" something is nothing more than an excuse for the leader to separate from peers.

One the group has distinguished itself from others, there is room for increasingly bizarre claims, such as what Nee said about the manifestation of authority. It seems all these types of "apostles" claim to have "recovered" something about authority.
Apparently an item of scripture that wasn't recovered was forgiveness and reconciliation.
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:13 PM   #12
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Apparently an item of scripture that wasn't recovered was forgiveness and reconciliation.
The things that were "recovered" were completely at the whim of WN/WL. That is why I can't place much trust in what either of them taught. That's not to say that the didn't emphasize some things that might be helpful, but people who emphasize their own delusions, like the notion of deputy authority, are not people that I can trust. It is particularly appalling when such teachings replace an emphasis of humility and forgiveness.
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Old 03-19-2016, 05:17 AM   #13
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The things that were "recovered" were completely at the whim of WN/WL. That is why I can't place much trust in what either of them taught.
And the sequence of "recovery" of supposed truths, previously hidden in the Bible for centuries, is simply too convenient for the supposed seer. Nee supposedly recovered the idea of the Body, which allowed him to separate from not only the Western denominations and their authority, but even senior co-workers like Leland Wang.

Then, once he had separated a "purified remnant" according to his new vision, lo and behold he discovers the manifestation of authority, of which (naturally) he becomes the focal point. Of course he never meant it to, it just worked out that way.

Lee was the same, finding things in the text to supply today's need. And Lee's thinking was, "Since God restricts Himself to one move on earth (us), whatever truth God supplies us today is the whole truth, complete and entire." And those who are under such teaching are sold on the notion that this present truth will encompass every scenario, meet every need. Just follow the formula of God's deputy. Family, school, work, everything is satisfied with the formulation from God's deputy. Even the teachings of Jesus, on service to the poor and sick, on humility, on righteousness, are assumed to be somehow subsumed by today's supposed revelation.
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Old 03-19-2016, 06:47 AM   #14
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Nee ...suffered from the delusion and self-obsession of one who felt himself (not Jesus Christ) to be the center of God's will.
Of course any self-respecting Local Churcher would deny such statements, vehemently. Christ is the center of God’s economy! Christ, Christ, Christ! Christ is everything, and everything is in Christ. Like the hymn by A.B Simpson.

In order to understand what I'm saying, therefore, look at Jesus Christ. He brooked no fellowship from common men. When they remonstrated with Him, He refused it. He was here to do the Father’s will. He was the Holy One of God (Mark 1:24); to accept counsel from sinners would distort His path.

“Lord, take some food,” got the reply, “My food is to do the Father’s will.”

“Not so Lord! This will never happen to You!” got “Get behind Me, Satan!”

Etc. The Christ of God was and is, by definition, a singular Entity. There aren't two or three or eight. We all know this: there's only One Pathway to the Father. Jesus Himself is the Way, by definition singular. Jesus is both Lord and Christ, again singular.

But what of the sinners who follow behind Jesus? Is there to be one Vicar of Christ, of whom all else must seek succor? The answer is a resounding no - the safety of the flock lies in the counsel of many. Proverbs says this thrice. Watchman Nee continually ignored this necessary word of caution, and was instead answerable only to God. Nee himself wrote to T.A. Sparks that he had no peers; his revelations had removed them. Witness Lee continued in this folly of Nee. Thus they became the respective centers of their own make-believe worlds, they and those whom they convinced to submit. And thus the delusion of self had a pathway to grow unchecked.

And that's why I see a clear lineage between Nee and the Shouters, EL, Arvore da Vida, and so forth. It's arguably the same deceiving spirit: subjectivity over all. "I'm the Final Apostle with the Final Revelation; I announce to you the Ultimate Blessing which will usher in the Last Revival and End the Age! Hear my High Peak Gospel, and live!" Etc, etc... me, me, me.
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Old 03-19-2016, 11:27 AM   #15
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The things that were "recovered" were completely at the whim of WN/WL. That is why I can't place much trust in what either of them taught. That's not to say that the didn't emphasize some things that might be helpful, but people who emphasize their own delusions, like the notion of deputy authority, are not people that I can trust. It is particularly appalling when such teachings replace an emphasis of humility and forgiveness.
How much of Nee's so-called recovery was pseudo-spiritual enlightenment and how much was really socially and nationalist motivated? Rejection of western imperialism?
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