Doug Krieger testimony

[aron]

MY EXPERIENCE IN THE LOCAL CHURCH

By
Doug Krieger
This is the first time that I have recounted to anyone my experience in the Local Church of Witness Lee (in print) - I say "Witness Lee" because, in point of fact, his control of this denomination was so pervasive and exploitive, that it could not be considered anything but the Church of Witness Lee--notwithstanding his protests to the contrary, and the apparent efforts of the LSM to legitimate their evangelical credentials and avoid being branded as an "organization" a la Jehovah Witnesses, and not an "organism" full of life and vitality in Christ. This, however, is not a Scriptural exposition of my experience--but I assure you, there are many Scriptures upon which I lean . . .

Initially, the presentation of the Local Church and the so-called "ground of unity" was very captivating--as was the message of "Christ as Life" - both were almost mesmerizing to the seeking soul.

I was a Bible Student at Multnomah Biblical Seminary in Portland, Oregon, when I was introduced to W.L. via one Jonathan Kong and Donald Morsey (both of whom were elders in what later became known as the Church in Sacramento).

In the summer of 1962 I, along with three young brothers from Sacramento, attended a meeting in San Francisco without W.L. but with members of the newly forming Church in Los Angeles and the Church in S.F. This gathering was altogether different in that all the saints (and I truly believe they were genuine born-again believers) "functioned" and shared their testimonies--although (and this is not a racist remark) many of the younger Chinese believers said nothing--most were students studying in America. It was vibrant and very moving--although I understood nothing of what I was witnessing.

In the spring of 1963 I attended the 4-Major Steps of Christ conference held in Los Angeles at the Embassy Hotel in downtown Los Angeles - after that the 1963 conference in Alta Dena, CA at Jim Reetzky's home - during this time I had introduced scores of young people from my Bible School to W.L.'s ministry and some came to L.A./Altadena for the conference - most of whom are still with the Local Churches of Witness Lee.

I was perhaps the first "immigrant" local American young person to come to L.A. where in late 1963 I enrolled at a local junior college and then state university - but attended the beginnings of the L.C. from 1964 through June 1968 when I was drafted into military service during the Viet Nam Era. I was very active--actually, I found several meeting halls in the L. C. including Bonnie Brae and Eldon Hall.

I was the young people's coordinator and brought perhaps several hundred people into the L.C. To say the least, I was very zealous for the L.C. - then I went to Germany in the military and met with the saints in Germany and literally arranged for their coming to the USA and training in 1970 (about 15 came).

From here throughout 1970 we established with John So a very vigorous young people's ministry connected to the L.C. at most of the main campuses in the area. I taught school in 1970-1971 as well - then in 1971 participated in the first "out migration" to San Francisco where W.L. appointed me an elder - perhaps, again, the first one to "achieve this status" via a direct appointment.

Here we were very active (by this time I had two children - now 3) - We established contacts throughout the Bay Area (especially San Jose) - and also had many contacts with Santa Cruz - I was in the military in the Monterey Bay area and had established the beginnings of what became known as the Church in Santa Cruz which grew to nearly 200 (mostly young people) but who were then pressured into leaving San Cruz because of one Carl Hammond and Paul Ma who were, at the time, considered "of the enemy" - the church is still there, however, but a shadow of its former self.

We then remained in S.F. a year and then moved to Berkeley - here we raised up, along with saints from San Jose and Sacramento a very "prevailing work" during the height of the Viet Nam War - here we held a 1,000-man march down Telegraph Avenue to break the power of the "principalities and powers" over the city and to "claim it for the Local Church." I also, with the other brethren with us, raised up a congregation of 400 within two years and brought scores of newly regenerated saints into the kingdom.

We were NOT orthodox L.C. - we established a radical expression of Body Life and had some 20 "brothers and sisters houses" with large communes - it was something like "pure communism" (without knowing that this is what we were doing) and one whole lot of excitement and fun in the Lord--the kids loved it. We would march down streets, passing out tracts, bringing kids back to our large concert hall, have band music and shops set up for kids to manage at our "garage" - we had several "communes" in which families and young people/students lived (around 100) - half would work to bring in income into the commune and the other half would evangelize or attend classes, etc. - it worked. In a very real sense - we had "all things in common." And, I hasten to add--that this possibility was very real as we advanced to greater sharing among us all.

Initially W.L. held this "model" up for all to see and told all the elders to visit Berkeley - then he turned on us and crushed it.

The L.C. needed someone to sell its motor homes--the entire enterprise (in retrospect) was nothing more than a vain attempt by W.L. to build his financial empire here in America via cheap labor in Taiwan. My subjective knowledge of this "scheme" was that it was illegal, immoral and unethical to the core--it was a vast rip off of God's people--a shame to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ! Many saints lost their life savings in this bogus venture.

I was asked to help in this now defunct and exposed sham--although there were full-time sales people doing the job. Before W.L. and his ilk decided to excommunicate me, I was able to sell 5 of these wildebeests (the only guy that ever sold any to anyone aside from selling it to ourselves!) - For a time this "saved me from excommunication" (by the way there was the spurious charge that my excommunication or being asked to "leave Berkeley" (which Dave
Mattison and Jim Miller requested of me and Doug Shearer to do) was based upon "divisiveness" (a most ambiguous charge in that I was immediately heralded in Anaheim as "the savior of the Recovery") - that ignoble title lasted one week or less. Then, when I asked for my promised commission for the sale and "cash in hand" of these vehicles, Max Rapaport smashed me by telling me that when I requested my financial commissions as promised that I would NOT receive anything and that "your opinions count as nothing."

W.L. - after I appealed to him (for I was the only one who had done all the sales out of my own resources and had received no compensation throughout the two-month effort--unlike virtually all sales and staff members) realized that what Max had done (although I understand now that W.L. had asked Max to "stick it to me" (i.e., no compensation)) was encouraged by W.L. in an attempt to secure more funds for his nefarious efforts--efforts now embracing sons Timothy and Phillip.

I told Doug Shearer (a brother who served as an original elder in Berkeley at my insistence and one who I had brought to Christ earlier in his life - and someone with whom I am still laboring in the Lord with even until this day) that "the establishment" in Berkeley wanted us out and that our success was considered by them as nothing more than "the flesh" - there was a James Barber - a man who died of cancer, I believe before you came into the L.C., who engineered our demise from afar and under W.L.'s encouragement (although he and W.L. would deny it all).

The duplicitous mannerism embodied within the Local Church and their bizarre expressions in English in communicating their truths astound--on the one hand they intrigue, on the other hand they are a deplorable example of "immigrant English!" There is nothing "spiritual" associated with these peculiar expressions of so-called "spiritual truths."

Thus, in September 1974 we left the Local Church and within one year the L.C. in Sacramento split in two and so by the summer of 1975 it was all over for me and the L.C. - W.L. was very angry with those who conspired against me in Berkeley but that was "his way" - he orchestrated things and then blamed others when it didn't work out like he wanted it to.

All of these "fleshly endeavors" repulsed and saddened me greatly - I had had it and physically was suffering a nervous breakdown of sorts--although it never came to that. There was nothing of love and only politics and the flesh - but we had some wonderful times while it lasted but by 1974 everything was over. Again, in retrospect, how can something so "spiritually sounding" be and/or become so despicable, so estranged from the Life promised us in Christ and the strength received as a Body of believers, living in relationship and enjoying the functioning of every member of that Body--thereby contributing to the building up in love of that one Body?

I was the first elder to leave the L.C. who had been in it from the beginning - I was now 33 1/2 years of age--the age our Lord was when He was crucified. Indeed, if there was such a crucified experience lived out--it was mine.

We loved all the saints in Berkeley where we truly experienced Body Life, true Christian community (we even had an apartment complex where 22 families lived in unity) - all the families tossed in their money and all the sisters bought food together at the local food co-op. The people in Berkeley really liked us (favor with God and man) because we took in the homeless, fed them and housed them--and we did not condemn them but preached a true gospel of the Grace of God--and the testimony of virtually all the elders and others who came to Berkeley saw that we were real in Him.

We used to have a "jug band" - this group played music on the streets and even in a flat-bed truck around the city--scores got saved and enjoyed Body Life--yet Witness Lee came to Berkeley for a conference and declared that "jug bands create jug people" and, furthermore, declared that "fruit is being manifested" but like Lot, who through "spiritual incest" (with his daughters who got him drunk) produced seed in the form of the Ammonites and the Moabites (both of whom became a plague to the house of Israel).

We were on fire for Jesus and the people knew this and loved us for it - eventually, nearly all the large fraternity and other large homes in Berkeley around the campus opened up to us (if available) to live in and even people with money would help us get places because we could manage them well and provide income for the owners and take care of the property - although they knew that we were a bit communistic! That didn't matter--we never insisted on anyone that they had to live this way--but Berkeley loved it.

One day we preached the gospel and 18 got saved - we took them down to "Ludwig's Fountain" - a fountain in the middle of the Berkeley Campus - here we baptized them and then all came back to C.J.'s Garage (that was its actual name before we leased it) - so we simply kept the name "Christ Jesus' Garage" - ) here we held common meals and concerts which were packed out.

I dare say that if the L.C. had not stopped us, we would have taken over the L.C. by dent of our numbers and increase -

But, looking back I realize that Lee's methodology was like that of one incensed with control - he had to be the MANAGER (because he "had the gray hair") of everything and dictate to all. Some day he will have to face the Almighty for the damage he did to so many young people who were hurt by his actions and his subtle manners. In sum: He was a Chinese War Lord and practiced it with amazing cunning.

I gradually began to see what W.L. stood for and later on realized that his "doctrine of control" was exceedingly cruel and nefarious - he and Joe Stalin would have had much in common!

He could never give up anything to the Lord--he insisted on controlling all the churches, the workers and the elders--his model was that of the Antioch Church (so he claimed and so did Watchman Nee claim as well in Further Talks on the Church Life). In his last meeting with Doug Shearer and me he took out a copy of this text and read the following:

"I seems that Antioch was controlling them."

Then we asked Witness Lee: Was Watchman Nee referring to Antioch's "controlling them" - the antecedent of "them" - does it refer to the churches, the workers or the elders? Lee replied: ALL of them! At that point I looked at Doug Shearer and said: I think it's time for us to leave.

Lee had expressed the most totalitarian concept in Church control--more so than that of Pope Benedict's recent declarations that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church and that all others are "deficient" and/or "lesser" and even eluded to the fact that salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church is NOT an option, not viable--Lee, in essence, declared that the L.C. was virtually the only expression outside of Babylon. This arrogant, preposterous, exclusive, demeaning and pompous attitude and even belief system, is so outrageous and defining of a state of super spirituality that the only thing that one can conclude is a spiritual pride far and beyond anything uttered by modern man, aside from overt cults who acclaim the same but, even then, provide variety of expression--unlike the L.C. wherein all things must mimic the (as it is expressed now) the Living Stream Ministry--even the Methodists have not this conformity!

Thank God this "phase" in my life is over (now, looking back nigh 34 years) I realize that the Lord had a purpose and plan for me, like He does for you - that purpose, that plan is centered on His Son - in bringing many sons to glory!

I have spoken frankly - there are many details - such as when I went to the military the entire company of men accepted Christ as their Savior - I was about the Father's business and always appreciate others "outside the L.C." as brothers and sisters in Christ, from whom I could always learn and from whom I realized that they were all "members one of another" - and still am.

Let me say one more thing - did I experience Christ in the L.C. - yes, I did--IN SPITE OF THE L.C., and not because of it - God is a God of great mercy and grace and if we seek Him with our whole heart, even in the darkest of conditions, He will be with us and supply us His glorious presence and growth in the spirit.

It's almost over for me (pressing into 70 now) - but the best days are ahead. We're "plotting and planning" (see our web site at: www.the-tribulation-network.com) once again to start more brothers and sisters houses here in our State's capital and commence a work "downtown" for the gospel (my 24-yr son, Geofff, is leading the way--praise God all my children love our Lord Jesus Christ without guile) - giving the young people the support that we never had from our elders - we can do that now that we're old! They indeed carry the torch and we have the privilege of allowing them to express themselves and to team up with them "for the faith of the gospel." We are not "counting" anything now--we simply believe that Rev. 14 of the first harvest will be our harvest!

Incidentally, during all the law suits I ardently protested to all the saints I could (still in the Local Church - and I did so with my dear brother Bob Smith, who also left the L.C. - and no matter what is said against this dear brother, here is one whose desire is toward Him and whose walk in Christ is undefiled) that such law suits were in utter violation of the Scriptures--no matter how the L.C. would convolute them to justify their spurious efforts to silence their critics. To this day--they bear the Body of Christ great shame in ripping off the saints of their commitment to Christ and to His Church. The L.C., led by Witness Lee and his self-deceived, self-diluted and "family business" have brought the name of Jesus down into the gutter. Outwardly they acclaimed a spirituality wrought in the sufferings of the Church in China--but contradicted and defamed these suffering saints by their worldly acquisitions and "spiritual torture" wrought upon countless saints who innocently followed man, not God.

I was one of the first brothers to deride the sins of one Phillip Lee and the covering up of those iniquities by well-meaning, but deceived brethren who should have known better. When approaching, in 1978, brothers John Ulicki and Howard Higashi (both of whom I had a part in bringing into the L.C.) if "this matter" had been properly dealt with, they assured me that it had--that was at best a misunderstanding on their part or a bald faced lie in order to "cover" Phillip's most grievous behavior. I knew in 1978 that nothing had changed--Max Rapaport was now "out" and many others followed - YES, there is abundant life beyond the immediate environs of the L.C. - yes, there is a real Babylon, a real end-times Apostasy, and tragically, Lee's eschatology, his view of the end times, mirrors an elitist interpretation which provides him a platform of control of those caught by his subterfuge - partial rapture.

I vehemently reject Lee's eschatology outright and have the scriptural validation of such an insidious means of controlling thousands of the unsuspecting.

Eventually, as you well know - John Ingalls--a man whose love for God and His people is likewise undefiled (although it took him a bit longer to renounce "that situation) and, although I rejoice that he is determined to gather with God's people to "express Christ" - my concern for him and those gathered around his efforts remains somewhat cautious in that "building a better mousetrap" does not bode well - to say that the L.C.'s doctrine of the "ground of unity" holds ANY Scriptural credibility is suspect--notwithstanding the "seven churches" in Revelation being used to validate such claims--I fear that the the "Jesus" of such expressions is limited and conclude that what T. Austin Sparks adjudged of Witness Lee's "doctrine of the dirt" was a delimiting of Christ to the uttermost and an ultimate denominational expression far worse than most such ORGANIZATIONS!

May the Spirit of Christ strengthen you in the inner man--may you, with all saints, comprehend and apprehend His unsearchable riches in His One Body--embracing all whom He embraces and gathering with them who desire only His headship wherever they meet!

[aron]

THE YOUNG PEOPLE AND WITNESS LEE

BY

DOUG KRIEGER


We formed teams of young people like a "net" and arranged via permit to take the free speech area at the UCLA campus in West Los Angeles in order to "preach the gospel." There were around 100 of us at the time . . . it was 1971, somewhere during the spring the "young people's coordination" of which I was wholly involved, along with Sal Benoit, Howard Higashi and the ever-pensive, John
So. Along with a number of dedicated sisters in Christ--we knew the time had come. Ned Nasseman was also with us--UCLA would never be the same.

It was amazing--we were at the height of the Viet Nam War--before the Berkeley riots of 1972 when Nixon bombed Haiphong Harbor. Also, it was before the first migration of saints out of Eldon Hall throughout the nation, to take the nation for
Christ and the Church. Yorba Linda, with Bill Freeman, had already decided to take off to Seattle to "start the Church Life." It was the time that the saints in Seal Beach were discovered by me and several others like Doug Hendrickson; and, it was the time that Max Rapaport committed himself fully to Witness Lee and the Church--Max had started the Church in Anaheim--I was with Max at the time.

There was truly an outpouring of the Spirit that day on the campus--no one can deny that--scores found Christ--Howard Higashi and James Barber preached--it was anointed.

I think that the summer of 1970 and 1971 marked the high-water mark of "The Lord's Recovery" - but the seeds of disintegration were already growing in its midst.

The YPC (Young People's Coordination) were sort of a mini-eldership within the
Church in L.A. - it became fertile ground for producing would-be elders - never by design, but that's what happened. W. L. always gave credible support for the Young People and for its YPC.

The seeds of disintegration to which I allude stimmed from a little known meeting held among W.L., myself and Frank DeLuna outside of Eldon Hall--here, Frank shared with W.L. that his family (I will not disclose who) had received a significant inheritance and Frank asked Lee what to do with it. W.L. immediately seized upon the opportunity so extended and suggested that it could be "invested" and thereby spread the work and secure meeting halls, etc.- thus began the debacle known as the Daystar Enterprise and its spurious connection with a little known sister enterprise in the Far East known as "Overseas Christian Stewards" - an enterprise which Sal Benoit later exposed in the infamous "secret tape" heard around the world--a tape later carried into the presence of the IRS to launch an investigation of the enterprise.

Little did Frank and I know that Lee would take Frank's money and the investments of scores of saints and catapoult these investments into Lee's own private financial empire which later grew into the tens of millions of dollars. Thus, when W. L. and son Timothy were "forced to come to America" in the early '60s at the Seattle World's Fair selling Hong Kong suits to pay off growing debts in the Far East--and later encouraged the likes of Paul Border, Billy Moore and myself to sell those crazy suits (which if you pulled on a string sticking out of one, the entire thing came apart--time to laugh here, sad but true)--Lee's "dirty little capitalist secret" would remain an on-going enterprise that some day fabricated not only Daystars but tennis rackets and the most bizarre items--whatever the dumb Americans would buy.

I know I digress here - but one Samuel Chang in 1963 informed me that Lee was the spiritual side of Watchman Nee and that he was the "financial side." During Lee's Daystar enterprise and the stupidity of the "native way" of selling these exceedingly expensive dinosaurs "door to door in rich American neighborhoods" (in order to cut marketing costs) Chang came up with the bizarre idea of natural vitamins and minerals. The Churches, like Boston, were given a front row marketing presentation by Chang himself who set out hundreds of little cups full of this snake oil and attempted both to sell it to the saints and to have the saints market it--man, talk about Kool Aide!

All this is so sad--but I share this to clearly let you know that "mingling" capitalism with Christianity - God with mammon - was at the heart and soul of the L.C. from its commencement--concealed until Lee saw an opportunity to advance his cause and a way to fund his empire and to secure a massive financial base for his family members--even his "charging for the ministry" and the "trainings" was an idea concocted by him and shared with the elders in Washington, D.C. and me in a car on the way to the meeting hall in D.C. - Lee said that smart Christians like so-and-so were doing it and "so should we!" Thus, charging for the ministry became the way of the Local Church of Witness Lee--whereas prior to this time during the early days of the 1970s such a practice was non-existent--but Lee decided to follow the way of Christianity, a Christianity he resented and blamed as the Great Babylon!
And so, getting back to the YPC, etc. - in my last segment I shared how we finally left Berkeley--then the YPC was used by W.L. to destroy the "old order" but once Max and the "prevailing sisters' flow" had secured too much power through this "Red Guard approach" - he knew he had to smash the YPC.

**** ****** and Howard Higashi were altogether effusive in their acclamation of the new revolutionary move blessed by W.L. and orchestrated by Max--indeed, James Barber was told by W.L., under encouragement from Max, to come to Sacramento and APOLOGIZE to Doug Shearer and me. James did--but it was a farce - anyone in their right mind could tell he was doing it for show and told us that some day Max would get his "just due" - James made it clear to us that Max's days were numbered. Amazing, he wanted Doug and me, and knew that Lee was planning to dump Max!

This power struggle climaxed against the old guard at that Berkeley conference--I knew precisely what was happening--why, because the Holy Spirit and my own devastating experience told me what would happen and that I should surely stay away from this foolishness.

What and why the YPC did what it did that Memorial Day Weekend tells more about how manipulative Lee was--latter, in Anaheim, Lee denounced the extreme manner of the Young People and the YPC and that they had "gone too far." Imagine that--so did the Red Guard--but then, capitalism carried the day--both in China and in the L.C.!

When Howard and Mike came to Sacramento to welcome me back to the L.C.--and both were so sincere--I forcefully warned them what was coming upon them and the L.C. Lee was about to make his move. He had successfully dressed down the eldership in L.A. via the tumultuous Memorial Day Weekend when young people, one after another, got up and mocked the "old order"---everything from John Ingales preaching the Tree of Life while wearing "Fruit of the Loom underwear" to burning L.C. banners atop vans and having ridiculous water fights in the meeting--letting off the inner frustration which nigh all of them had experienced in the past--and all egged on by Lee who was plotting to reverse course and devastate "both sides" to show who was boss: Himself!

How God's people could be so deceived - especially American saints - had as much to do with misunderstanding the Chinese culture, as much as it did not understanding their/our own. Spiritual verbiage cleverly manipulated is a sinister tool if placed in the hands of intelligent and yet unscrupulous men or women--it cuts into the very soul and spirit of the unsuspecting and the vulnerable. This was the experience that took place that Memorial Day Weekend--it eventually blew scores of saints out of the L.C. (a mercy in disguise), including my own brother-in-law, **** ******. Mike is now in Oregon serving the Lord with his dear wife, *****, my sister-in-law, along with my other brother-in-laws: ****** ***** and **** *****--all of whom, including their wives (***** and ******) and my dear wife, *******, all plan to gather this Memorial Day Weekend to enjoy each other's fellowship . . . yes, we're all together and still loving and celebrating the unity we have both as a family and as friends - all of us still love our Lord Jesus!

And, yes, I'm still married to the same loving spouse of nigh 40 years--remember, only Christ is worthy of keeping us in love and relationship. I only wish we could have helped more saints find the freedom we found in Christ.

Yes, when I told Howard Higashi and **** ****** I'd only come back to the L.C. if they could provide a white stallion for me upon reentry into Rome--knowing that this outlandish statement would assuredly get back to those who disdained my reappearance in any event--I would oblige their request . . . but how shameful to witness so many sincere believers to undergo such manipulation by someone who one day shall stand before the BEMA, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and be examined for the deeds done in the body, whether they be good or naught!


things got much worse after those of us who initially blew out of the L.C. - why brethren stayed in so long, after knowing many of the things which I discovered were so corrupting - well, I stayed in, hoping against hope that things would improve--and, how could I be so wrong that what appeared to have commenced with such sincerity in Christ could have gone so awry.

Well, let me share just several reasons:

(1) Lee's entire emphasis upon the mingling of the human spirit with the Divine Spirit is erroneous--participation in the Godhead, "partaking of the Divine Nature" is not intrinsic unity, it is entirely one of RELATIONSHIP - and through that relationship the believer, the Body of Christ, reflects the Divine Image. We are NOT CHRIST--we are the Bride of Christ and the "Bride eyes NOT her garments but her dear Bridegrooms face!" The "worship of the Image of the Beast" which is the counterfeit of the Image of Christ (i.e., the Church is the Image of Christ juxtaposed to the Image of the Beast which is the CORPORATE anti-type of the Bride) is assuredly what the Beast demands; however, the "worship of the Image of Christ" is NEVER mentioned in Scripture. The exaltation of the Local Church and "how glorious we are" is naught but the "worship of the IMAGE of the Beast!"

(2) Lee's teaching of the "doctrine of the dirt" is the antithesis of the "true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and reality." PLACE/dirt is NOT the manifestation of the Kingdom of Heaven. Lee's teaching and even Nee's misunderstanding of the practice of the "City-Church" is and became nothing more than an insidious system, far worse than the Catholics or the Jehovah's Witnesses or even the Mormons, in controlling God's people; and at that, for filthy lucre.

(3) Lee's manipulation of eschatology and, in particular, an extension of the pre-tribulational rapture of the Church (i.e., partial rapture) bears within it the seeds of a distortion of the doctrine of the overcomers in the churches and was/is abused by the L.C./LSM (and many of those who have left are still enslaved by this elitist teaching, unfortunately proclaimed by many a well-meaning Plymouth Brethren like Pember and Lang--otherwise, wonderful teachers in Christ). At issue is the final TESTIMONY OF JESUS against the Beast, the "Beast Nation" and Babylon the Great's religious apostasy, commercial hegemony and political oppression. The Beast will arise and make war against the Two Witnesses--I affirm that these TWO WITNESSES are NOT two individuals, but corporate in nature: PROPHETIC ISRAEL and THE OVERCOMING CHURCH - the Two Olive Trees and the Two Lampstands - the Lord's witnesses to the Gentile World Powers and Principalities and Powers in High Places.

Again - thank you for this chance to share with you--again, my experience probably predates most, if not all, those who originally comprised the YPC. May the Lord grant today's young people who have a heart for Christ to be all out for Him--the time is short--and, those who proclaim the gospel without its prophetic power, even denigrating its importance (see my latest article on DESPISE NOT PROPHESIES @ www.the-tribulation-network.com) and stressing the newly embraced "Gospel of the Kingdom of SOCIAL JUSTICE!"--have rejected the offense of the cross, joined the Emergent Church of non-offense, and have tragically joined the parade of the millions who have little concern for the Coming of the Lord . . . and are even told that "prophecy is none of your business!"

May the grace of our Lord increase and abound in you AND may the Spirit of Him Who raised Christ from the dead, reign in Life in all those damaged and devastated by the falsehoods and manipulations of those who have usurped the headship of Christ in the life of the believer . . . Lee's efforts were, unfortunately, replicated in many other movements--hence, you begin to wonder why I am so vociferous a critic of those who manipulate God's people for personal gain and make merchandise of the Word of God or conceal saints from the pending flood, knowing my lot shall receive the greater condemnation, but let it be so . . . I had rather warned and not to have had their blood upon my hands--and yes, I have worked full time since leaving the L.C. and continue to do so--TO GOD BE THE GLORY! Ministry, family, church and work should all be done to the glory of God, not for the aggrandizement of man, even men who acclaim that they are the Oracle of God Himself!

Yours because of Him Who Loves us! Doug Krieger

[aron]

Dear Brother Doug,

… You mentioned IRS investigation because of Sal Benoit's tape. What was the outcome of it? I heard that there was some illegal activity related to Daystar, but it seems there was no penalty from IRS.

God bless you,

KSA

__________________________________________________ _______

Dear KSA -

The IRS involvement and investigation took place at the end of the 1970s. It was commenced as a result of that tape and that tape was involved. The copy of the tape was not given to the IRS by Sal Benoit but by a brother I know who had the tape but who now regrets he did this; although, at times that regret turns to a measure of satisfaction that he did the right thing--it was not I who turned in the tape.

Insofar as the result of the investigation, I am not aware of those results. There were so many who had cause to complain about the financial practices of the Daystar and its incorporation into the financial affairs of the Local Churches. The efforts of the "little bankers" (normally, sundry elders in various churches who were called upon to intervene on Lee's behalf to forestall individuals in asking for the return of the original investments) was another sad day for the churches. Unlike American denominations, most of whom understand SEC (Security and
Exchange Commission) rules and regulations - I do not believe (and this my own subjective evaluation) that the administrators of the L.C.'s understood nor desired to know what the implications of generating funding for a for-profit corporation by the use of membership funds, and, in some instances funds generated via these "little bankers" who solicited such funding and then sought to "forgive the debts."

[Amcasci]

Doug, thank you so much for sharing your treasure. I do not believe we ever met.i did go to LA in the summer of 72 for a conference and I do know bob smith. Please greet him for me if you are still in contact with him.

I believe you are on target in your estimate of the "dirt". It is bogus. The bigger the lie the harder we fall. I often thought that what was going on in the LC was very much like the communist take over of China. Iconoclasm, isolation, big lies,etc. It is very effective and young folks are so susceptible to it.

Truly Christ is good.

Art casci

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Amcasci

Doug, thank you so much for sharing your treasure. I do not believe we ever met.i did go to LA in the summer of 72 for a conference and I do know bob smith. Please greet him for me if you are still in contact with him.

I believe you are on target in your estimate of the "dirt". It is bogus. The bigger the lie the harder we fall. I often thought that what was going on in the LC was very much like the communist take over of China. Iconoclasm, isolation, big lies,etc. It is very effective and young folks are so susceptible to it.

Truly Christ is good.

Art casci

Bob Smith moved his family from Cleveland to Anaheim during the mid-70's at the suggestion (prolly closer to insistence) of Titus Chu, because of the ongoing conflicts between the two. Bob felt that being closer to Lee would be a "purer" form of the Recovery. Bob later became a thorn in Lee's side in his new Anaheim LC.

Witness Lee excoriated Titus Chu for letting him do that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Let me say one more thing - did I experience Christ in the L.C. - yes, I did--IN SPITE OF THE L.C., and not because of it - God is a God of great mercy and grace and if we seek Him with our whole heart, even in the darkest of conditions, He will be with us and supply us His glorious presence and growth in the spirit.

Ahhh Doug, great story, I was with you until you had to say this.

Them's fighting words in these parts ...

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

MY EXPERIENCE IN THE LOCAL CHURCH
By
Doug Krieger

Here we were very active (by this time I had two children - now 3) - We established contacts throughout the Bay Area (especially San Jose) - and also had many contacts with Santa Cruz - I was in the military in the Monterey Bay area and had established the beginnings of what became known as the Church in Santa Cruz which grew to nearly 200 (mostly young people) but who were then pressured into leaving San Cruz because of one Carl Hammond and Paul Ma who were, at the time, considered "of the enemy" - the church is still there, however, but a shadow of its former self.

I was in Santa Cruz in the very beginning and I never met or saw Doug Krieger. His statement is pure nonsense. While I was attending Bethany Bible College near Santa Cruz I met Karl Hammond in the spring of 1969 and started meeting with him and his wife the next morning for prayer at his apartment with another couple he had just brought to the Lord. That was the beginning of the LC in Santa Cruz and I was involved in building up S.C. until I left in the summer of 1971 upon the request of WL for me to migrate to Detroit because I had brought numerous relatives in Detroit into the LC. I had heard of Krieger but not in relation to the church in S.C.

[OBW]

Isn't this a testimony that was posted some years back? One that had a view of certain parts of California that we generally had no insight into. And therefore no way to verify or refute. He may have been everything he says, but it is so over the top in some ways that it is difficult to process as not at least a little bit of self-aggrandizement. I do want to believe it because it seems a little bit like a Forrest Gump story — true stories collected together and made to reside in one person's history. Just too much in one place to be taken seriously — at least without some corroboration. And because of that, hard to accept as entirely true.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Isn't this a testimony that was posted some years back? One that had a view of certain parts of California that we generally had no insight into. And therefore no way to verify or refute. He may have been everything he says, but it is so over the top in some ways that it is difficult to process as not at least a little bit of self-aggrandizement. I do want to believe it because it seems a little bit like a Forrest Gump story — true stories collected together and made to reside in one person's history. Just too much in one place to be taken seriously — at least without some corroboration. And because of that, hard to accept as entirely true.

Well said, OBW.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Isn't this a testimony that was posted some years back? One that had a view of certain parts of California that we generally had no insight into. And therefore no way to verify or refute. He may have been everything he says, but it is so over the top in some ways that it is difficult to process as not at least a little bit of self-aggrandizement. I do want to believe it because it seems a little bit like a Forrest Gump story — true stories collected together and made to reside in one person's history. Just too much in one place to be taken seriously — at least without some corroboration. And because of that, hard to accept as entirely true.

This was also my gripe with the Lily Hsu testimony of WWII-era mainland China. How much of it could be independently corroborated? How much was perhaps manipulated or misremembered history in order to cast things in the best light for the tale-teller?

Originally Posted by Dave

I was in Santa Cruz in the very beginning and I never met or saw Doug Krieger. His statement is pure nonsense.

Krieger's testimony (and Hsu's) probably should be held at arms' length until matched by independently verifiable info. And that is not easy... La Cosa Nostra has nothing on the LCM - it's "omerta" all the way to the grave. Silence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omert%C3%A0

Omertà is an extreme form of loyalty and solidarity in the face of [external or outside] authority. One of its absolute tenets is that it is deeply demeaning and shameful to betray even one's deadliest enemy to the authorities. For this reason, many Mafia-related crimes go unsolved. Observers of the Mafia debate whether omertà should best be understood as an expression of social consensus surrounding the Mafia or whether it is instead a pragmatic response based primarily on fear, as implied by a popular Sicilian proverb Cu è surdu, orbu e taci, campa cent'anni 'mpaci ("He who is deaf, blind, and silent will live a hundred years in peace")..

A testimony may be useful if it can be seen in relation to what little we do know. (And I say this with Lily Hsu as well).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

This was also my gripe with the Lily Hsu testimony of WWII-era mainland China. How much of it could be independently corroborated? How much was perhaps manipulated or misremembered history in order to cast things in the best light for the tale-teller?

While I understand the concerns with Lily Hsu's testimony, I do not see these as the same kind of thing. Hsu is writing from personal observations and those of others, and has acknowledged them as such. There does not appear to be the inference that the world was revolving around Hsu. That does not make her story more true, but more palatable.

And palatable is not the end-all of anything. And while it is possible that everything Krieger has accounted is actually true, plausibility is stretched to the max. On the other hand, while the story Hsu told was at first hard to believe, it has since been seen as making much more sense that Lee's almost clearly fabricated tale about Nee's living with his mother or aunt as being the cause of excommunication. Is everything about Hsu's account 100% accurate? Have all of the sources been entirely honest? Hard to say. But the world wasn't revolving around them.

Meanwhile, it would seem that there is a difference of opinion concerning activity in Santa Cruz, with one participant there having never heard of Krieger. Makes for a more difficult sell.

And makes me wonder if it is worse than some of us (like me at times) at tying everything to Lee and the LCM and just going off on it. There was another who wrote like this on the other forum years ago. Parts of his were very believable. But some parts were difficult because, once again, everything seemed to revolve around him. He stood up to everyone and no one stood up to him. And he got away with it. At least he says so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

This was also my gripe with the Lily Hsu testimony of WWII-era mainland China. How much of it could be independently corroborated? How much was perhaps manipulated or misremembered history in order to cast things in the best light for the tale-teller?

In the vacuum of credible history, Hsu provided a counter to Lee's fairy tales about Nee. Perhaps she was not completely verifiable, but she was definitely more believable.

It was kind of like reading Ingall's account after believing for a quarter century only what Lee told us. There was a huge vacuum with ugly inside, and we were forced to canonize Lee instead of knowing any facts.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

Isn't this a testimony that was posted some years back? One that had a view of certain parts of California that we generally had no insight into. And therefore no way to verify or refute. He may have been everything he says, but it is so over the top in some ways that it is difficult to process as not at least a little bit of self-aggrandizement. I do want to believe it because it seems a little bit like a Forrest Gump story — true stories collected together and made to reside in one person's history. Just too much in one place to be taken seriously — at least without some corroboration. And because of that, hard to accept as entirely true.

Talk about over the top. Here is Doug Krieger's website which he shares with McGriff: http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ -- it is listed in the article quoted below although it appears that it hasn't been updated for a couple years. Someone is paying the bills to maintain the domain and website space. Looks like a couple hundred articles many of them written by Krieger as well as several books written by Krieger.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Talk about over the top. Here is Doug Krieger's website which he shares with McGriff: http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ -- it is listed in the article quoted below although it appears that it hasn't been updated for a couple years. Someone is paying the bills to maintain the domain and website space. Looks like a couple hundred articles many of them written by Krieger as well as several books written by Krieger.

Sorry to say but bro Doug strikes me as someone really sold on himself. And that conveniently plugged right into Witness Lee's mentality.

Megalomania meet megalomania.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the vacuum of credible history, Hsu provided a counter to Lee's fairy tales about Nee. Perhaps she was not completely verifiable, but she was definitely more believable...

I agree. More believable. But absent independent verification, not completely so. It still has the asterisk, with "waiting for corroboration" next to it. And the more fanciful the tale, as Krieger's seems to be, the bigger the asterisk.

Still I'm glad I posted it. I had read it years ago, when there was no one like Dave around to say, "Not so fast". So it was worth the effort in updating.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Dave

Talk about over the top. Here is Doug Krieger's website which he shares with McGriff: http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ -- it is listed in the article quoted below although it appears that it hasn't been updated for a couple years. Someone is paying the bills to maintain the domain and website space. Looks like a couple hundred articles many of them written by Krieger as well as several books written by Krieger.

So Dave, you never ran into Doug Krieger during your days in Santa Cruz? Weren't you there during at least part of the time he says that he was very active there?

[aron]

Well it should be possible to corroborate some of this stuff eventually. If some of what Krieger says relates to what actually happened, then that should be enough not to simply dismiss it out of hand, due to his later interests. He might still be a witness to some LC history. Actual witnesses who saw some of this are so scarce today that I wouldn't ignore any of them out of hand, no matter how flakey they may seem to be.

Is anything that DK says independently corroborated somewhere else? Did Samuel Chang, for example, tell anyone else that he was the "financial side" of things, and, try direct-marketing techniques with the Church in Boston? There's a big swath of LC history covered in this testimony, 1962 - 1975.

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger

I know I digress here - but one Samuel Chang in 1963 informed me that Lee was the spiritual side of Watchman Nee and that he was the "financial side." During Lee's Daystar enterprise and the stupidity of the "native way" of selling these exceedingly expensive dinosaurs "door to door in rich American neighborhoods" (in order to cut marketing costs) Chang came up with the bizarre idea of natural vitamins and minerals. The Churches, like Boston, were given a front row marketing presentation by Chang himself who set out hundreds of little cups full of this snake oil and attempted both to sell it to the saints and to have the saints market it--man, talk about Kool Aide!

All this is so sad--but I share this to clearly let you know that "mingling" capitalism with Christianity - God with mammon - was at the heart and soul of the L.C. from its commencement--concealed until Lee saw an opportunity to advance his cause and a way to fund his empire and to secure a massive financial base for his family members--even his "charging for the ministry" and the "trainings" was an idea concocted by him and shared with the elders in Washington, D.C. and me in a car on the way to the meeting hall in D.C. - Lee said that smart Christians like so-and-so were doing it and "so should we!" Thus, charging for the ministry became the way of the Local Church of Witness Lee--whereas prior to this time during the early days of the 1970s such a practice was non-existent--but Lee decided to follow the way of Christianity, a Christianity he resented and blamed as the Great Babylon!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Well it should be possible to corroborate some of this stuff eventually. If some of what Krieger says relates to what actually happened, then that should be enough not to simply dismiss it out of hand, due to his later interests. He might still be a witness to some LC history. Actual witnesses who saw some of this are so scarce today that I wouldn't ignore any of them out of hand, no matter how flakey they may seem to be.

Is anything that DK says independently corroborated somewhere else? Did Samuel Chang, for example, tell anyone else that he was the "financial side" of things, and, try direct-marketing techniques with the Church in Boston? There's a big swath of LC history covered in this testimony, 1962 - 1975.

I agree that it's hard to say how credible these accounts are. I am curious though about a lot of these things. I would like to have a better idea of how early on in his ministry WL started different business ventures.

According to Don Rutledge's account, WL was selling suits at the Seattle World fair in 1962. That was the same time as the church in Los Angeles started, so I think it's possible that there were ongoing business dealings on the side all along. From the various sources I've read, there seems to be some indication (a bit unclear) that WL had engaged in various church-involved business ventures in the U.S. before Daystar. There doesn't seem to be much clarity as to what those business ventures were (tennis rackets, suits, vitamins, etc????) and over what time period each took place. I am also curious as to how strongly these business ventures, particularly those before Daystar, were promoted in church meetings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I agree that it's hard to say how credible these accounts are. I am curious though about a lot of these things. I would like to have a better idea of how early on in his ministry WL started different business ventures.

According to Don Rutledge's account, WL was selling suits at the Seattle World fair in 1962. That was the same time as the church in Los Angeles started, so I think it's possible that there were ongoing business dealings on the side all along. From the various sources I've read, there seems to be some indication (a bit unclear) that WL had engaged in various church-involved business ventures in the U.S. before Daystar. There doesn't seem to be much clarity as to what those business ventures were (tennis rackets, suits, vitamins, etc????) and over what time period each took place. I am also curious as to how strongly these business ventures, particularly those before Daystar, were promoted in church meetings.

As the story goes, Lee had a disastrous business plan go south in Taipei in the mid 50's. Never heard what the plan was, but Lee forced the church to sell some property to pay his debt. This created such a conflict among the saints, that Lee was effectively banished from Taiwan, and thus arrived on our soil. Lee and company eventually spun this into God's "leading."

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Dave, you never ran into Doug Krieger during your days in Santa Cruz? Weren't you there during at least part of the time he says that he was very active there?

I was there at the very beginning in early spring 1969. Karl Hammond was living temporarily in an apartment with his wife and had only been in SC a short time. There were only 5 of us meeting every morning at his apartment: Karl, Helen (his wife), a couple of hippies who Karl had just brought to the Lord (John and Pat Wagner) and myself (my wife joined us later). Karl later purchased a home where we continued to meet and Paul Ma later moved to SC and bought a home a couple houses down from Karl. I remember having an out of this world several course Chinese dinner at Paul Ma's home one evening. In 1971 we started building a place to meet on Doyle street since we had grown to about 125. WL came to SC in 1970 and I had dinner with him, my wife and Karl's daughter and her husband (Bob and Annie Griffith) at his daughter's home since they had moved to SC as well.

I left in the summer of 1971 to Detroit as part of a migration. I knew Karl very well and he had mixed emotions about WL asking me to move to Detroit but thought that it might be a sign that WL was giving him some recognition to his efforts in SC. Karl always knew he was kind of a renegade but wanted some level of acceptance from Lee.

During this entire time of over two years I never met Doug Krieger nor even heard of him. I was actively involved in the growth of SC while I was there (1969-1971) attending the university in SC. Dave Becker, his wife Jill and Dennis Lawrence and his wife Dee accepted the Lord and were baptized in the Atlantic Ocean in SC in late 1969 and sometime after I left for Detroit in July 1971 became the elders in the SC church.

Doug does not say what specific years he was in SC but indicates that he was responsible for its initial growth which is pure nonsense as I indicated earlier. Of course, awareness was in SC in 1971 but I doubt he remembers anyone named Krieger. I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

I was there at the very beginning in early spring 1969. Karl Hammond was living temporarily in an apartment with his wife and had only been in SC a short time. ..... I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

I would say, not so fast. First, Krieger says he was in the California LCs 1964 to 1968, then went into the Army where he served in Germany and met and worked with John So. If you (Dave) came into the LC in 1969, it's possible that he would have been gone by that time. You simply didn't cross paths.

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger

I was perhaps the first "immigrant" local American young person to come to L.A. where in late 1963 I enrolled at a local junior college and then state university - but attended the beginnings of the L.C. from 1964 through June 1968 when I was drafted into military service during the Viet Nam Era.

I was in the LCs for years and never once heard the word "Daystar", until it was written on these forums. I didn't even know who John Ingalls was! I came in right after the Philip Lee "storm" and Ingalls was gone, erased with no trace except for a few RecVs and hymnals. So not hearing of someone in the LC is not indicative of their non-existence. A LOT of stuff isn't heard in the LCs. A LOT of names are not mentioned.

Second, Krieger in the written testimony says he's 70 years old, and says he left when he was 33. So recollecting experiences 37+ years later will be spotty at best. Yesterday I was telling someone of a skit on television from the 1970s, and looked it up on YouTube to show him. Turns out I half-remembered it. Some of the actors that I thought were in the skit were in another, similar one. My memory had merged two separate but similar events.

So if Krieger gives this Forrest Gumpish tale decades later it doesn't mean that its pure hogwash. Nonetheless, when someone like Dave can't corroborate any of it, we should also take that into consideration.

But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as pure fabrication, either.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

During this entire time of over two years I never met Doug Krieger nor even heard of him. I was actively involved in the growth of SC while I was there (1969-1971) attending the university in SC. Dave Becker, his wife Jill and Dennis Lawrence and his wife Dee accepted the Lord and were baptized in the Atlantic Ocean in SC in late 1969 and sometime after I left for Detroit in July 1971 became the elders in the SC church.

Doug does not say what specific years he was in SC but indicates that he was responsible for its initial growth which is pure nonsense as I indicated earlier. Of course, awareness was in SC in 1971 but I doubt he remembers anyone named Krieger. I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

Perhaps Doug K. was on the Pacific Ocean side of Santa Cruz.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Second, Krieger in the written testimony says he's 70 years old, and says he left when he was 33. So recollecting experiences 37+ years later will be spotty at best. Yesterday I was telling someone of a skit on television from the 1970s, and looked it up on YouTube to show him. Turns out I half-remembered it. Some of the actors that I thought were in the skit were in another, similar one. My memory had merged two separate but similar events.

So if Krieger gives this Forrest Gumpish tale decades later it doesn't mean that its pure hogwash. Nonetheless, when someone like Dave can't corroborate any of it, we should also take that into consideration.

But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as pure fabrication, either.

Look what happened to Brian Williams of NBC who merely embellished a few war stories as time went on. I suppose we reserve the right to "mis-remember" past events only for those in some "White" house.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Of course, awareness was in SC in 1971 but I doubt he remembers anyone named Krieger. I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

Yes, I must have come in, along with 11 other Southgate Sickies (friends from Southgate Michigan) right after Dave left for Detroit. I remember well Karl, Ma, Dennis (elder) Dave Becker (elder), and somewhat remember John (elder ??)(Lawrence and Becker ended up in Ft. Lauderdale).

But I never once heard of Krieger until Ft. Lauderdale, that he was up in the inner circle of Lee.

But then I never heard of Dave either, until I went to Detroit. Karl, a proud a-hole, and sold on himself like Krieger, always told that he started Santa Cruz by preaching the gospel on the boardwalk.

Incidentally, by far Paul Ma was my favorite brother from those days. He was such a sweet caring brother. I sure wish I could talk to him again so I could give him a piece of my mind for not telling me the truth about Watchman Nee in Shanghai, which he had to know about. Aron brought up "omerta." Which I eventually learned was the culture of the Chinese. So I guess I can't hold it against Paul Ma for being what he grew up to be. Still, I'm not happy with him for allowing me to be deceived. He prolly told Hammond in confidence. Which would explain Karl's rebellion against Lee. Or maybe Karl learned it from someone else.

Now I know that there was a hidden history of Lee even way back then ... and of Nee too. Sure wish I knew that back then. It would have saved me from 10 yrs of the formative yrs of my adult life committed to a cult.

And I wouldn't today likely be on this crazy forum ... getting hammered for not being a rabid evangelical.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

I would say, not so fast. First, Krieger says he was in the California LCs 1964 to 1968, then went into the Army where he served in Germany and met and worked with John So. If you (Dave) came into the LC in 1969, it's possible that he would have been gone by that time. You simply didn't cross paths.

I would agree with you except there was no LC in SC until Karl Hammond showed up in early 1969. I can appreciate the fact that it was years ago and his memory might be spotty. On the other hand it seems like a major memory lapse saying he started SC.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

I would agree with you except there was no LC in SC until Karl Hammond showed up in early 1969. I can appreciate the fact that it was years ago and his memory might be spotty. On the other hand it seems like a major memory lapse saying he started SC.

He certainly wasn't shy about self-promotion, even self aggrandizement. How much, if any, his testimony relates to actual events that occurred on the ground (pun intended) shall have to be revealed in its time.

I notice that awareness says that in Ft. Lauderdale he heard Krieger was in the "inner circle"; does that, for example, reflect some actual position (in a group with no hierarchy, ahem, ahem) or just self promotion? Was that assessment courtesy of Karl Hammond? And how might promoting Krieger help to promote his own ministry (Hammond)? Etc... from this distance, it may be nearly impossible to tell.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Little did Frank and I know that Lee would take Frank's money and the investments of scores of saints and catapoult these investments into Lee's own private financial empire which later grew into the tens of millions of dollars. Thus, when W. L. and son Timothy were "forced to come to America" in the early '60s at the Seattle World's Fair selling Hong Kong suits to pay off growing debts in the Far East--and later encouraged the likes of Paul Border, Billy Moore and myself to sell those crazy suits (which if you pulled on a string sticking out of one, the entire thing came apart--time to laugh here, sad but true)--Lee's "dirty little capitalist secret" would remain an on-going enterprise that some day fabricated not only Daystars but tennis rackets and the most bizarre items--whatever the dumb Americans would buy.

Wasn't the gold colored uncomfortable chairs another product?

I had heard Witness Lee was a millionaire early as the 1970's. Nothing could substantiate the claim more than an income tax filing.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

So if Krieger gives this Forrest Gumpish tale decades later it doesn't mean that its pure hogwash. Nonetheless, when someone like Dave can't corroborate any of it, we should also take that into consideration.

I think that a consideration of Forrest Gump is the key. The stories told in Forrest Gump were essentially all true — with the exception of the existence of Forrest Gump.

Elvis swung his hips in an insane way. Forrest Gump didn't give him the idea.
There was a break-in at the Watergate Hotel. Forrest Gump didn't report it.
Nixon used ping-pong as part of his early olive branches with China. Forrest Gump was not among the participants.
Someone created the smiley face. Forrest Gump wasn't the one.
"$hit happens" is a popular statement. Forrest Gump didn't come up with it.

Not saying that Krieger was not involved in any of the things he wrote about. But as true as the underlying stories may be (even every last one of them), it seems too likely that he wrote himself into some of them despite not being close enough to even do a drive-by.

All of that to say that each and every account is worthy of further digging — not to push Krieger out of them, but to discover what happened in a part of California that most of us have almost no insight into.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

He certainly wasn't shy about self-promotion, even self aggrandizement. How much, if any, his testimony relates to actual events that occurred on the ground (pun intended) shall have to be revealed in its time.

I notice that awareness says that in Ft. Lauderdale he heard Krieger was in the "inner circle"; does that, for example, reflect some actual position (in a group with no hierarchy, ahem, ahem) or just self promotion? Was that assessment courtesy of Karl Hammond? And how might promoting Krieger help to promote his own ministry (Hammond)? Etc... from this distance, it may be nearly impossible to tell.

His own ministry? You can check that out at:
www.tribnet.org/

Or check out his books on Amazon. Like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/TWO-WITNESSES-...9131985&sr=1-5

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

I left in the summer of 1971 to Detroit as part of a migration. I knew Karl very well and he had mixed emotions about WL asking me to move to Detroit but thought that it might be a sign that WL was giving him some recognition to his efforts in SC. Karl always knew he was kind of a renegade but wanted some level of acceptance from Lee.

During this entire time of over two years I never met Doug Krieger nor even heard of him. I was actively involved in the growth of SC while I was there (1969-1971) attending the university in SC. Dave Becker, his wife Jill and Dennis Lawrence and his wife Dee accepted the Lord and were baptized in the Atlantic Ocean in SC in late 1969 and sometime after I left for Detroit in July 1971 became the elders in the SC church.

Doug does not say what specific years he was in SC but indicates that he was responsible for its initial growth which is pure nonsense as I indicated earlier. Of course, awareness was in SC in 1971 but I doubt he remembers anyone named Krieger. I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes, I must have come in, along with 11 other Southgate Sickies (friends from Southgate Michigan) right after Dave left for Detroit. I remember well Karl, Ma, Dennis (elder) Dave Becker (elder), and somewhat remember John (elder ??)(Lawrence and Becker ended up in Ft. Lauderdale).

But I never once heard of Krieger until Ft. Lauderdale, that he was up in the inner circle of Lee.

But then I never heard of Dave either, until I went to Detroit. Karl, a proud a-hole, and sold on himself like Krieger, always told that he started Santa Cruz by preaching the gospel on the boardwalk..

So awareness says he heard of Krieger while in Ft. Lauderdale, that Krieger was up in the inner circle of Lee. Did he hear this from Hammond or someone else, and in what way? This is the only current link to corroborate anything Krieger wrote of his own experience & position within the 1960s LCs. The LC is a tight-knit bunch - there aren't "six degrees of separation" in this group, more like two or three. Everyone seemed to know everyone else. That was part of the attraction: it was easy to get drawn in. I stayed at peoples' homes, who had stayed at others' homes. It was very communal -- "I worked on Meeting Hall X with Brother Y"... the most inconspicuous brother would know somebody who was at the top of the food chain. In fact awareness' experiences with current "top blended" RK is a perfect example.

So if Dave never heard of Krieger that's significant. But I would still be interested what awareness had heard of him, while in Ft. Lauderdale.

Whatever happened to the LC in Santa Cruz? The meeting hall at 126 Doyle Street is still there (look it up on Google Maps) but has no sign and looks like a bunker (not akin to an Exclusive Brethren hall). The LC does not recognize any of their churches being in Santa Cruz or at that address. But there is no record online of what group meets there now, although searches for the address pull up White Pages type listings for "the church in Santa Cruz."

[UntoHim]

There have been several testimonies on this very forum which give us a pretty good picture of what happened to the Church in Santa Cruz, and most of it has to do with Witness Lee wanting FULL CONTROL over the the local church there. To Lee the term "local church" was really just a local church which fully and unquestionably follows his person and work (re: his authority and his ministry), and if they didn't do so then they were either ostracized (if they were lucky), or a power play would be orchestrated by "firing" the existing elders and installing new, hand-picked "yes men" elders or sometimes he would just destroy the church by pitting elder against elder and member against member, and then just sit back and let it implode from within. This is basically the divide and conquer method preferred by the Blended Brothers in the last number of years.

There are forum members that were in Santa Cruz at various times in it's existence and they call fill you in on all the gory details.

[Sons to Glory!]

Old thread, but I just saw this reference to Doug Krieger via something recently posted by Aron on another thread.

I hit Ba-zerkly in 1974 as an 18 year old hippie/believer (hitch-hiked there from Ohio - a real God story for another time). I don't know much about Santa Cruz except that there were a few in Berkeley who had come from SC. I enjoyed reading Doug's account of Berkeley (see below in Aron's first couple of posts on this thread) in 1974 as it filled in certain details I'd wondered about for over 40 years!

I was one of those bros living in a communal type house Doug spoke of (Waring House - named for Waring Street) with scores of other brothers in it. I worked in a landscaping business the house operated, in which about eight of us would pile into a panel van with "Waring Brothers" painted on the side. We would all go out and gang-attack jobs - homeowners were amazed how fast we would get jobs done. Many of us had hair way down our backs (or Afros). We enjoyed gathering in "CJ's Old Garage" as Doug discussed (I didn't know it was already called "CJ's" before the LC occupied it!).

I also read about the other Doug he mentions - Doug Shearer. I had forgotten his name, although I now remember "the two Dougs." I didn't have a lot of interaction with either of them. Waring House was a very busy place and we were all pretty much either coming or going.

So for my part, it was educational hearing about the background of why all of the communal houses and Doug's work got broken up in Berkeley and why they went to the LC in Sacramento. Many of us were devastated that our communal brothers way of life was going away - HUGE disappointment for me at the time. We were told that it just wasn't normal and healthy by LC people.

For me there were no red flags concerning what Doug said regarding that time in Berkeley, that is, no glaring errors. But I was just a young, dumb hippie brother at the time and barely knew what anything was about! (If Dave Matteson were still in Scottsdale I might ask him . . .)

Since this information was posted in 2015, are their any updates or further discussion regarding Doug?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Old thread, but I just saw this reference to Doug Krieger via something recently posted by Aron on another thread.

I hit Ba-zerkly in 1974 as an 18 year old hippie/believer (hitch-hiked there from Ohio - a real God story for another time). I don't know much about Santa Cruz except that there were a few in Berkeley who had come from SC. I enjoyed reading Doug's account of Berkeley (see below in Aron's first couple of posts on this thread) in 1974 as it filled in certain details I'd wondered about for over 40 years!

I was one of those bros living in a communal type house Doug spoke of (Waring House - named for Waring Street) with scores of other brothers in it. I worked in a landscaping business the house operated, in which about eight of us would pile into a panel van with "Waring Brothers" painted on the side. We would all go out and gang-attack jobs - homeowners were amazed how fast we would get jobs done. Many of us had hair way down our backs (or Afros). We enjoyed gathering in "CJ's Old Garage" as Doug discussed (I didn't know it was already called "CJ's" before the LC occupied it!).

I also read about the other Doug he mentions - Doug Shearer. I had forgotten his name, although I now remember "the two Dougs." I didn't have a lot of interaction with either of them. Waring House was a very busy place and we were all pretty much either coming or going.

So for my part, it was educational hearing about the background of why all of the communal houses and Doug's work got broken up in Berkeley and why they went to the LC in Sacramento. Many of us were devastated that our communal brothers way of life was going away - HUGE disappointment for me at the time. We were told that it just wasn't normal and healthy by LC people.

For me there were no red flags concerning what Doug said regarding that time in Berkeley, that is, no glaring errors. But I was just a young, dumb hippie brother at the time and barely knew what anything was about! (If Dave Matteson were still in Scottsdale I might ask him . . .)

Since this information was posted in 2015, are their any updates or further discussion regarding Doug?

Good to hear the confirmation from someone who was there. The part bolded especially - how many people got their dreams crushed by "leadership" of this movement? Turns out "normal" in WN's Normal Christian Church Life meant normal to him. For the rest, too bad if your dreams got thrown away.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Good to hear the confirmation from someone who was there. The part bolded especially - how many people got their dreams crushed by "leadership" of this movement? Turns out "normal" in WN's Normal Christian Church Life meant normal to him. For the rest, too bad if your dreams got thrown away.

Yes. I didn't go to Sacramento with many of the others, but stayed in Berkeley. I got my hair cut to "normal" and got a "real job" over in SF file clerking. I don't remember any strong pressure from the saints, other than peer pressure of wanting to fit in (it may have been along the lines of "you need to get a real job now," but couldn't say for sure).

I see it as all of the Lord now - "Everything's the best it can be, so let's gain Christ." (remember that song?) Over & over I've seen he's protected me in ways I didn't understand . . . from things I didn't know about! (yes, He's my boast!)

As was being discussed in this thread earlier - I just heard from a bro know knew Doug in southern Cal and during the time he got the boot. He says he doesn't specifically remember Doug being involved in the origins of Santa Cruz, but said Doug was everywhere, so he couldn't say for sure one way or another.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I just heard from a bro know knew Doug in southern Cal and during the time he got the boot. He says he doesn't specifically remember Doug being involved in the origins of Santa Cruz, but said Doug was everywhere, so he couldn't say for sure one way or another.[/b]

Ever since Doug claimed he started the c. in Santa Cruz, I've kept up with him. I didn't know him in the LC, I just heard he was running in the upper circle in L.A.

What I've found from dogging him is that he's got a salesman personality, with a pitch. Y'all know how embellished pitches by marketeers can be.

He thinks a lot of himself. BTW, he has books on Amazon, about Bible prophecy. If you ask me, as far as I see, he's got a bad case of The Jerusalem Syndrome.

It's on the web that he's branded as a terrorist for funding an attempt to blow up the Temple Mount.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Ever since Doug claimed he started the c. in Santa Cruz, I've kept up with him. I didn't know him in the LC, I just heard he was running in the upper circle in L.A.

What I've found from dogging him is that he's got a salesman personality, with a pitch. Y'all know how embellished pitches by marketeers can be.

He thinks a lot of himself. BTW, he has books on Amazon, about Bible prophecy. If you ask me, as far as I see, he's got a bad case of The Jerusalem Syndrome.

It's on the web that he's branded as a terrorist for funding an attempt to blow up the Temple Mount.

Actually, the salesman part would seem to have merit. The brother who emailed me talked about some diamond mine thing Doug got them into. He said, "Needless to say, it didn't work out" since the emailing bro is not exactly rich now.

He did seem to like Doug, however (of course, a good salesman is likable). He has a story about them riding around after Doug got his "discharge papers" and I've asked if I could reprint it here - quite the hoot!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Actually, the salesman part would seem to have merit. The brother who emailed me talked about some diamond mine thing Doug got them into. He said, "Needless to say, it didn't work out" since the emailing bro is not exactly rich now.

He did seem to like Doug, however (of course, a good salesman is likable). He has a story about them riding around after Doug got his "discharge papers" and I've asked if I could reprint it here - quite the hoot!

His attempt to blow up the temple mount was because he had more money than brains.

And he obviously believes in the Cargo Cult method of bringing the Lord back ; in that, he believes if he can set things up just right, God will send the cargo ... and the Lord will come back.

Personally I don't think it works that way. He prolly got it from Witness Lee, who also believed in the Cargo Cult method, in the form of The Recovery, that was going to set things up just right for the Lord -- the cargo -- to be sent by God.

[Sons to Glory!]

So I got permission to post his email, from the local bro who replied to me about Doug - here 'tis.

Doug K, was such a favorite of W.L.. in the up to the mid-70's. The Golden boy even. He was in and among so many groups that eventually found their way into the LC, especially the "Seal Beach" group that eventually went to San Jose.

We had him in our home in LA, with a large group of new folks that he had brought in. He had no cares about the house - things were a mess when he left.

He and another brother, I had mentioned before, had gotten into an Investment Diamond Firm '77 '78. So they contacted Gene Ford and invited him, and thru Gene invited me, to come to LA to learn the business. (Big story, have to tell you some time.) BTW, if you hadn't noticed by now: IT DIDN'T WORK OUT!

What Fun! You should have seen this large group of brothers, at midnight, after having a very nice meal at a very nice place, (having been expelled from LC), Pipe smoking, shouting, crossing Wilshire Blvd (LA), at midnight. Shouting: "B.S." "B.S" over and over again. Not something we would have stood and shouted at the testimony time in the L.C. RECKON?

[Sons to Glory!]

And here's what the same local brother said after reading the Doug K piece (I sent him) that started off this thread:

Wow,wow, wow wow wow wow!

Man, I was a naivete. What a mess! I knew something was "out of wack" in the early 70's while in San Jose. Everybody else was going along with what was going on, and were as "happy and elated as an idiot at a street carnival."

The winter conference of 1974, W.L. said: "As long as you have the grace to stand, you stand". As long as you have the grace to walk, you walk. But when the grace to stand leaves, you leave, when the grace to walk goes, you go!"

I said "Thank you bro Lee, I am outa here" and by Feb and March of 75 I was. In January of 75 I tried to gain permission to move to Moses Lake, where Gene Ford ended up. I was "throttled" - NO! Then I sought permission to go to Albuquerque, and was again denied. But I KEPT UP the effort and finally John Ingalls relented and said ok. I thought things would be as I had remembered them in 1973 in Abq, but Abq was "soiled" by that time too, however I didn't know it. So they let me move, but kept a strong eye on me. Eventually, by October of 1975, I was clear. I left, and did not ever return.

I was saved from the "sewer" of all that so many others got dragged thru. Praise God for our human spirit.

Thanks for the [Doug K] article.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And here's what the same local brother said after reading the Doug K piece (I sent him) that started off this thread:

I'm curious, what happened in Abq? My family was there summer 73-to end of 75. I was only 6-8 years old at the time.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Terry

I'm curious, what happened in Abq? My family was there summer 73-to end of 75. I was only 6-8 years old at the time.

I don't know. I'll ask my buddy regarding details.

[Sons to Glory!]

Here what my local person had to say about Albuquerque:

I don't know anything about what happened in Abq in '75. We got back there in late Feb. early March. I know the Texas "bros", had been there, which I saw had established Abq in Living Stream establishment. Fully "ensconced" there in.

I am having such a hard time to see such awful depraved doings by WL and company. All the back stabbing, etc. [My wife] and I were talking about it, we were both so Naive, had no idea of the "depths of Satan". I just knew the "hero" worship of WL was not of God, so how could I be a part of it?! No telling what I would have done, had I known the "depths of Satan" going on. Texas guys were saying: "We will follow WL off a cliff," and I said "Not me"!

Aren't you glad we are so gone gone gone?

[JJ]

Doug Krieger spoke and sold books at a conference in Sacramento early this year involving Henry Hon and several other Christian speakers. Here is a link to his authors page at Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/default/e/B00...KindleDbs=true

He also spoke at a conference in Denver and was videod https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cc-pULVULhs
This is just as an update on his current status, not a recommendation to read or not (I haven’t bought or read his books nor heard enough of his speaking to form a recommendation.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by JJ

Doug Krieger spoke and sold books at a conference in Sacramento early this year involving Henry Hon and several other Christian speakers. Here is a link to his authors page at Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/default/e/B00...KindleDbs=true

He also spoke at a conference in Denver and was videod https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cc-pULVULhs
This is just as an update on his current status, not a recommendation to read or not (I haven’t bought or read his books nor heard enough of his speaking to form a recommendation.

Wow - Henry Hon too?! I thought a lot of Henry and was around him more than I was Doug (since Doug so quickly got the boot after I came on the scene).

I looked at some of Doug's writings and other Internet things. Appears like he's very big on eschatology and trying to decipher biblical numbers. For me, I've lost my appetite for all the numbers. In the end, a bunch of knowledge like mostly produces a fearful response, and not a loving knowing of Christ Himself. I know several people who follow this sort of thing and my opinion is that it's one big snorkeling in the weeds/rabbit hole.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I know several people who follow this sort of thing and my opinion is that it's one big snorkeling in the weeds/rabbit hole.

I went down his Tribnet 7000 Facebook rabbit hole for some time. It's fun down there, but ya haveta put up with a lot of funny characters ... and predictions of the end of the world, whenever the moon does something out of the ordinary, or some such ... or something aligns with the Hebrew calendar, specially holy days. Doug can work out the in-depth math until yer brain blows a 50 amp fuse. But it never works out in reality, it never comes to pass.

If only we could blow up the temple mount. Then we'd see Bible prophecy finally come to pass. That moon just won't do the trick.

[aron]

Stg, I finally figured out your moniker, remembering the ditty.

"Oh, the children of the Lord have a wondrous song to sing, for the the Lord will on that day many sons to glory bring."

I noted your friend's description of Doug as the "golden boy". According to his own testimony Doug brought in many, and in this he reminds me of two other LC "Timothys" who were similarly used then discarded. John I and Max R. Both were prominent in the work at one point, and lauded by WL as paragons of the recovery spirit.

Also liked the phrase, "as elated as an idiot at a street carnival". It aptly describes the sensory overload and feelings that follow. Shouting, chanting, yelling, arm-waving and fist-pumping, rocking back and forth, hopping up and down. Can you pass on this comment to your friend and either you or he comment further on the meeting atmosphere? I think "Berzerkely" may be telling us something.

WN was evidently affected by the "charismania" bug when he visited Elizabeth Fischbacher, who also travelled with him to England and transcribed his talks into English for CFP where his work began to circulate in the west. And of course WL followed suit, deliberately cultivating it to great effect.

[awareness]

Hey Doug's okay. I gave him some rough and tumble on Tribnet 7000, and he took it with grace. Just every now and then we jumped into the ring. Even then it was all in fun.

I only have interest in him at all because he falsely claimed that he started the c. in Santa Cruz, and I know better. Why lie about such a thing?

Turns out that Golden Boy has quite an ego, that he likes to puff up from time to time. And to him his Bible interpretation is unassailable. If you question it, you just might not be a friend ever again. He might have gotten that from Witness Lee. Bird's of a feather kinda thing.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Stg, I finally figured out your moniker, remembering the ditty.

"Oh, the children of the Lord have a wondrous song to sing, for the the Lord will on that day many sons to glory bring."

I noted your friend's description of Doug as the "golden boy". According to his own testimony Doug brought in many, and in this he reminds me of two other LC "Timothys" who were similarly used then discarded. John I and Max R. Both were prominent in the work at one point, and lauded by WL as paragons of the recovery spirit.

Also liked the phrase, "as elated as an idiot at a street carnival". It aptly describes the sensory overload and feelings that follow. Shouting, chanting, yelling, arm-waving and fist-pumping, rocking back and forth, hopping up and down. Can you pass on this comment to your friend and either you or he comment further on the meeting atmosphere? I think "Berzerkely" may be telling us something.

WN was evidently affected by the "charismania" bug when he visited Elizabeth Fischbacher, who also travelled with him to England and transcribed his talks into English for CFP where his work began to circulate in the west. And of course WL followed suit, deliberately cultivating it to great effect.

Sorry, bro, but I saw him at breakfast this morning and he sent me an email - he simply said, "enough all ready." I guess he is done talking about Doug K. (He certainly is one of the more colorful brothers among us these days, and I often get a kick out of many of his sayings!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by aron

Stg, I finally figured out your moniker, remembering the ditty.

"Oh, the children of the Lord have a wondrous song to sing, for the the Lord will on that day many sons to glory bring."

Oh, yes, I do remember that song! I actually was thinking of Hebrews 2:10 (which the song quotes).

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

He he falsely claimed that he started the c. in Santa Cruz, and I know better. Why lie about such a thing? Turns out that Golden Boy has quite an ego, that he likes to puff up from time to time.

Hard to miss the sense of self-aggrandizement in his account. But the part where he asked WL about the Antioch church controlling "all of them" I found shocking, actually; if WL did reply in the affirmative as DK alleges. What a reversal from the idea of localism! And WN also held this idea forth - in the FTOTCL? Brazen, if so.

Too ironic as Antioch is where Paul opposed those from James over the gentile issue, if Antioch then became the model for gentile control. That part where the two Dougs challenged WL over Nee's writing is the best part of the story (assuming it's corroborated).

[Sons to Glory!]

I recently got Doug Kreiger's email address from Henry Hon and sent Doug a message regarding my time in "Waring House" in Berkeley in 1974 (discussed earlier in this thread), which he and Doug Shearer were heading up (the "Two Dougs"). I asked him about the backstory as to why the house was abruptly disbanded and moved then to the LC in Sacramento. Here is his reply (I got his permission to post this):

good to hear from you - forgive me, but two months prior to our departure when we were "excused" from the LC I was somewhat in turmoil with Witness Lee and the leadership in Anaheim at the time. We asked the brothers in Berkeley - Dave Matteson, Jim Miller, Wiley Estabrook and Bob Huck if they had their druthers what would they prefer: For Doug Shearer and Doug Krieger to stay or leave - without hesitation they told us they wanted us to leave - thus ended my nearly 12-year stint in the LC - it truly was a God-thing and I praise the Lord I exited that ministry--and that's all it was, a ministry, but certainly was NOT an ekklesia experience as we understand that to be today because it was under the control and/or domination of one man, Witness, and now (apparently) under the so-called Blended Brothers.

The good news is that we reconciled (I did) eventually with Dave Matteson prior to his graduation to glory down in Avalon Beach--what a wonderful blessing that was - also had some terrific times with Matthew Ferrari down in SoCal prior to his passing. Seems like everyone I reconcile with passes away--be careful!

You've had quite the journey. Doug Shearer and I came back to Sacramento after we asked Witness Lee in the summer of 1974 some questions regarding Nee's text: FURTHER TALKS ON THE CHURCH LIFE. WL pointed out that when Nee wrote his text on FURTHER TALKS it was in counter distinction to the original vision found in the NORMAL CHRISTIAN CHURCH LIFE where the assemblies remained "independent in their administration--each answering to the Lord - but communion universal upheld in one accord" (as the song went). Nee reconsidered that position and determined that the MINISTRY was the center, the controlling agency of the Local Church move. Nee (with Lee highlighting on our behalf) used to Antiochian Model wherein when Paul and Barnabas went out from Antioch to Lystra, Iconium, Derby, etc. they preached the gospel, then folks got saved and began to meet in these places and then Paul/Barnabas went back and "pointed out elders" in these churches/assemblies. Then Lee/Nee asked the pregnant question: "Who was CONTROLLING these workers, churches, and elders of those churches?" "It seems that Antioch was controlling them" (said Lee to us from Nee's writing). Then Lee asked us: "What does the 'them' refer to?" Does "them" refer to the (1) Workers; (2) the Churches; or (3) the Elders of those Churches? Our answer was NONE OF THE ABOVE - the Holy Spirit, in the first place choose out Paul and Barnabas - they went out and simply established in their apostolic missionary endeavors these assemblies and they were NOT under some exterior control by the Church/Work based in Antioch. Lee vociferously replied: NO, not true, Antioch was controlling ALL THE ABOVE.

With that insight and adamant declaration on both Lee's and Nee's part I turned to Doug and said: "I think this conversation is over--the Local Church is nothing more than a form of Roman Catholicism and/or a heavy-handed denominational structure." We left and returned to Berkeley but word was sent to Berkeley that we were NOT in good favor with WL.

The brothers like Howard Higashi (who I had brought into the faith) and Mike Gordon (now living in North Bend, OR--and with whom I have, praise God, unhindered fellowship in Christ) came to me in Sacramento several years later when a Young People's Conference was going on in Berkley and said it was time for me to come back to the LC--I knew they were very sincere but I told both of them: "I will, but I need a white stallion upon which I will ride into Berkley in recognition of my Nepolonic return!" I cautioned them that what was going on in Berkeley was akin to Mao's "let a thousand flowers bloom" and then you can see who's with you and against you and then snuff them out who are against you--and that's what apparently and sadly happened - but that was the beginning of Mike Gordon's recusal from the LC.

Now, what I see is simply this: Lee simply had a ministry which controlled all of his "churches" - after I left the "ministry" became the be all and end all--if one was not ONE WITH THE MINISTRY you were "out of the flow" - suspect and, frankly, in some form of rebellion--that's where Bill Freeman found himself and, actually, many others, including DeVern Fromke, Gene Edwards, Lance Lambert, Don Morsey, Wayne Butchart, Karl Hammond, Titus Chu, and so many more--some of whom took Lee's way of a "controlling ministry" which I now call "a controlled burn" - whereas Henry and I have no intention of creating some kind of "controlled burn" - more like a wildfire would be better!

I've written a book entitled SO YOU WANT TO DO EKKLESIA? You should get it on Amazon--it's a fun read and sort of gives our experience here in Sacramento as an ekklesia-style meeting.. As you can see we do have other groups in our area--we should reach out to them and have to some extent in conferences and what not but need to circulate a whole bunch more to enjoy the greater Body of Christ. I swore in my haste that I'd never join myself to one ministry again--so, I'm involved in 4 ministries--haha! Word to Russia; Urban Hope Alliance; One Body Life; the Commonwealth of Israel Foundation and then I do my own writing (there's just not enough on my plate!) - I allot time to all of them just to stay in shape! As Nancy Pelosi says: I've learned to walk and chew gum at the same time! I know, horrible quote, but at my age--pressing 79, I can just about quote anyone and get away with it.

Here's my Amazon Book page--have at it!

https://www.amazon.com/Douglas-W.-Kr...rwt_scns_share

Looking forward to our Zoom call!

Bro. Doug